All this BS about Derrick vs JJJ or "grooming" Duane is just that. Want a few less minutes for Derrick and a few more for Duane? Reasonable. Nobody would bitch about that. But this JJJ for Derrick stuff is insane. They don't remotely play the same position. JJJ and Sandy do. Here's how they stack up vs one another in Big East play:
Min FG FGA FG% 3s Att 3% TO TO/40 Min
JJJ 86 10 36 27 0 11 0 12 5.6
Sandy 84 8 17 47 4 9 44 3 1.4
They've both score 20 points on field goals but JJJ has taken more than twice as many shots. Sandy is an excellent 3 point shooter. JJJ is as bad as a player can be. Sandy's turnovers/minutes is excellent. JJJ is a turnover machine.
They (together) average 34 minutes per game (each has 1 DNP). Want to bump that to maybe 40? Fine. Take 3 away from Juan and 3 from Derrick. But the split should be 25-30 Sandy and 10-15 JJJ based on their performance in the games. JJJ is an awesome athlete. He has the "wow" factor (see Carlton Christian) that many fall in love with. But even dismissing his attitude/practice habits he's not getting it done on the floor. Until he is, let's have more Sandy and less JJJ.
Agree - of the two, Sandy has shown much more promise than JJJ.
As for Derrick vs JJJ - It's frustrating when posters talk about how "historically awful" Derrick has been, and at the same time call for more minutes for JJJ. Those stats show that too many fans fall for the "wow" factor, and miss fundamentals.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on January 23, 2015, 10:34:29 AM
Agree - of the two, Sandy has shown much more promise than JJJ.
As for Derrick vs JJJ - It's frustrating when posters talk about how "historically awful" Derrick has been, and at the same time call for more minutes for JJJ. Those stats show that too many fans fall for the "wow" factor, and miss fundamentals.
Well you know, the
elite highschool players on scoop know better than two D1 coaching staffs.
Quote from: News: Ellenson dreams & commits to MU on January 23, 2015, 10:52:03 AM
Well you know, the elite highschool players on scoop know better than two D1 coaching staffs.
No kidding.
I hope Wojo only has 5 players on the roster next year so we don't have to debate minutes.
Apparently 8 guys is still too many.
I didn't put this up to troll Ners, Texas, or Wojo. Honest. It just seemed to me (damn eye test) that Sandy was playing much, much better than JJJ. Since they can and often do play the same position I thought the numbers were relevant. Given them, if Sandy was the sophomore and JJJ the freshman wouldn't Sandy be getting most of JJJ's minutes?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 23, 2015, 11:27:40 AM
I didn't put this up to troll Ners, Texas, or Wojo. Honest. It just seemed to me (damn eye test) that Sandy was playing much, much better than JJJ. Since they can and often do play the same position I thought the numbers were relevant. Given them, if Sandy was the sophomore and JJJ the freshman wouldn't Sandy be getting most of JJJ's minutes?
To me, it seems like Wojo rides the hot hand inside of any given game. (Cohen and Teve against St John's)
With only 8 guys, everybody is bound to get a decent amount of minutes. If (insert player) wants more minutes, just play better. Wojo will play guys who are playing well.
I hate to oversimplify, but I don't think this is that complicated.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 23, 2015, 10:29:07 AM
All this BS about Derrick vs JJJ or "grooming" Duane is just that. Want a few less minutes for Derrick and a few more for Duane? Reasonable. Nobody would bitch about that. But this JJJ for Derrick stuff is insane. They don't remotely play the same position. JJJ and Sandy do. Here's how they stack up vs one another in Big East play:
Min FG FGA FG% 3s Att 3% TO TO/40 Min
JJJ 86 10 36 27 0 11 0 12 5.6
Sandy 84 8 17 47 4 9 44 3 1.4
They've both score 20 points on field goals but JJJ has taken more than twice as many shots. Sandy is an excellent 3 point shooter. JJJ is as bad as a player can be. Sandy's turnovers/minutes is excellent. JJJ is a turnover machine.
They (together) average 34 minutes per game (each has 1 DNP). Want to bump that to maybe 40? Fine. Take 3 away from Juan and 3 from Derrick. But the split should be 25-30 Sandy and 10-15 JJJ based on their performance in the games. JJJ is an awesome athlete. He has the "wow" factor (see Carlton Christian) that many fall in love with. But even dismissing his attitude/practice habits he's not getting it done on the floor. Until he is, let's have more Sandy and less JJJ.
Sandy is a more conservative player and the stats bear that out. I expect he will continue to gain more playing time as he gets used to the physical play. JJJ on the other hand has been told to play more within his own capabilities and time will tell what that will bring us.
Quote from: Canned Goods n Ammo on January 23, 2015, 11:48:05 AM
To me, it seems like Wojo rides the hot hand inside of any given game. (Cohen and Teve against St John's)
With only 8 guys, everybody is bound to get a decent amount of minutes. If (insert player) wants more minutes, just play better. Wojo will play guys who are playing well.
I hate to oversimplify, but I don't think this is that complicated.
Agreed. The main reason JJJ hasn't played a lot lately is that he hasn't produced much when he has played. "Bad practices" added to that, but bad game play is the main culprit IMO.
Derrick is playing a guard position. Period. JJJ and Cohen are also guards. You move Duane to PG, and shift 20 of Derrick's minutes to Cohen/JJJ.
Like it or not, both JJJ and Cohen are more talented than Derrick. Period. Talent wins games. Our team would be so much more dynamic with this lineup:
Duane
Carlino
JJJ or Cohen
Juan
Luke
It's not even debatable. Everyone in that lineup is a threat to score - other than perhaps Juan. Makes the game easier for all of them.
Bottom line is we now have 2 years of Derrick playing max minutes at the PG position and we missed the NIT in year 1, and will miss the NCAA this year as well. It aint working.
Wojo is so paranoid about turnovers, he can't see the forest through the trees as to how his ball protector PG is limiting the team. Just as Buzz couldn't. The record doesn't lie.
Quote from: Canned Goods n Ammo on January 23, 2015, 11:48:05 AM
To me, it seems like Wojo rides the hot hand inside of any given game. (Cohen and Teve against St John's)
With only 8 guys, everybody is bound to get a decent amount of minutes. If (insert player) wants more minutes, just play better. Wojo will play guys who are playing well.
I hate to oversimplify, but I don't think this is that complicated.
Pretty much how I have seen it. People who were bitching about players not getting "extended runs" have no reason to bitch now.
Derrick, Derrick, Derrick, Derrick, What is the title of this thread?, Derrick, DERRICK DERRICK, DERRICK
Quote from: NersEllenson on January 23, 2015, 12:00:49 PM
Derrick is playing a guard position. Period. JJJ and Cohen are also guards. You move Duane to PG, and shift 20 of Derrick's minutes to Cohen/JJJ.
Like it or not, both JJJ and Cohen are more talented than Derrick. Period. Talent wins games. Our team would be so much more dynamic with this lineup:
Duane
Carlino
JJJ or Cohen
Juan
Luke
It's not even debatable. Everyone in that lineup is a threat to score - other than perhaps Juan. Makes the game easier for all of them.
Bottom line is we now have 2 years of Derrick playing max minutes at the PG position and we missed the NIT in year 1, and will miss the NCAA this year as well. It aint working.
Wojo is so paranoid about turnovers, he can't see the forest through the trees as to how his ball protector PG is limiting the team. Just as Buzz couldn't. The record doesn't lie.
Please don't do this.
This thread is about JJJ and Sandy.
Please don't start down this path again. Please don't make everything about Derrick.
Quote from: NersEllenson on January 23, 2015, 12:00:49 PM
Derrick is playing a guard position. Period. JJJ and Cohen are also guards. You move Duane to PG, and shift 20 of Derrick's minutes to Cohen/JJJ.
Like it or not, both JJJ and Cohen are more talented than Derrick. Period. Talent wins games. Our team would be so much more dynamic with this lineup:
Duane
Carlino
JJJ or Cohen
Juan
Luke
It's not even debatable. Everyone in that lineup is a threat to score - other than perhaps Juan. Makes the game easier for all of them.
Bottom line is we now have 2 years of Derrick playing max minutes at the PG position and we missed the NIT in year 1, and will miss the NCAA this year as well. It aint working.
Wojo is so paranoid about turnovers, he can't see the forest through the trees as to how his ball protector PG is limiting the team. Just as Buzz couldn't. The record doesn't lie.
Clearly you are completely, hopelessly obsessed with Derrick. You make every thread about Derrick. You constantly post about Derrick. Even when you say you aren't talking about Derrick, there are always subtle swipes at Derrick and any time you leave someone unnamed, it's obvious you are talking about Derrick.
At some point, maybe try to have a thought that doesn't revolve around Derrick? I know he's the center of your universe and all, but I shudder to think what you'll do when he's gone. You won't have anyone to whine about. Or are you already figuring out the next target of your vitriol for once he's gone?
This is hilarious.
When you compare JJJ and Sandy's numbers side-by-side like that, it really becomes clear that Derrick needs to be benched.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on January 23, 2015, 12:24:55 PM
When you compare JJJ and Sandy's numbers side-by-side like that, it really becomes clear that Derrick needs to be benched.
HAHA! Well done!
Clearly, Derrick is favoring Sandy with his 'good' assists.
Quote from: Canned Goods n Ammo on January 23, 2015, 12:11:02 PM
Please don't do this.
This thread is about JJJ and Sandy.
Please don't start down this path again. Please don't make everything about Derrick.
Maybe
one 30-day ban ::) wasn't enough.
Hello. As many of you have reported, you don't like Ners' commentary on Derrick Wilson.
New Rule: Before you click "report to moderator" please click the (http://www.muscoop.com/Themes/MUScoop/images/english/ignore.gif) button underneath the individual whose prose so irritates you.
If, for some reason, the "ignore" function is not operational for you, then yes, please alert the moderators.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on January 23, 2015, 01:20:13 PM
Hello. As many of you have reported, you don't like Ners' commentary on Derrick Wilson.
New Rule: Before you click "report to moderator" please click the (http://www.muscoop.com/Themes/MUScoop/images/english/ignore.gif) button underneath the individual whose prose so irritates you.
If, for some reason, the "ignore" function is not operational for you, then yes, please alert the moderators.
Totally fair.
Ners, for real though, can you please keep the threads on topic?
I'm cool with you saying whatever you want. I'll just ignore/avoid if I don't like it.
But, when it starts leaking into every thread, then there is no way I can avoid it.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on January 23, 2015, 01:20:13 PM
Hello. As many of you have reported, you don't like Ners' commentary on Derrick Wilson.
New Rule: Before you click "report to moderator" please click the (http://www.muscoop.com/Themes/MUScoop/images/english/ignore.gif) button underneath the individual whose prose so irritates you.
If, for some reason, the "ignore" function is not operational for you, then yes, please alert the moderators.
I definitely understand your point, but when someone quotes him, ignoring him becomes pointless, which is why I no longer bother having him on ignore.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on January 23, 2015, 01:20:13 PM
Hello. As many of you have reported, you don't like Ners' commentary on Derrick Wilson.
New Rule: Before you click "report to moderator" please click the (http://www.muscoop.com/Themes/MUScoop/images/english/ignore.gif) button underneath the individual whose prose so irritates you.
If, for some reason, the "ignore" function is not operational for you, then yes, please alert the moderators.
I swore to myself I would not do that this year. However, times change and you talked me into it.
Quote from: wadesworld on January 23, 2015, 01:29:48 PM
I definitely understand your point, but when someone quotes him, ignoring him becomes pointless, which is why I no longer bother having him on ignore.
So .. what you're saying is that it only works like 80% of the time, and that's not worth it?
Back on topic of Sandy vs JJJ
I don't regard a substitution effect between the two players. They are different kinds of players right now.
- JJJ is a high-volume (25% usage), low efficient (ORtg of 89) player. Ugh. That's the worst. Seriously, my least favorite type of player
- Sandy is a role-player, low-volume (15% usage), but high efficient (ORtg of 115). That's a good beginning.
Typically, I'd say that the numbers favor Sandy in a slam dunk. However, there are other considerations to make.
How will these players grow over the next few years?
- Will JJJ improve his efficiency while keeping his usage high? If he can get his efficiency better with a high usage, that's a senior year super-star
- Can Cohen keep his efficiency high while increasing his usage? Typically, increased usage leads to less efficiency.
In addition, despite the shortcomings of JJJ, I'd like to note that he has already had two exceptional games this year (Tennessee-Martin; North Dakota). I calculate both games as top 10%-type games. His six game stretch from ASU through Providence was net positive in every game. He's had a rough four game stretch, but so has pretty much everyone not named Carlino. I still calculate JJJ as the fourth most productive member of the team so far.
Last, JJJ is pretty solid (nationally ranked) with his assist rate and steal rate. Ideally he backs off some of the shots and cuts down on the TOs.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on January 23, 2015, 01:20:13 PM
Hello. As many of you have reported, you don't like Ners' commentary on Derrick Wilson.
New Rule: Before you click "report to moderator" please click the (http://www.muscoop.com/Themes/MUScoop/images/english/ignore.gif) button underneath the individual whose prose so irritates you.
If, for some reason, the "ignore" function is not operational for you, then yes, please alert the moderators.
I find it funny that you ban a guy for bringing Derrick into every thread. He comes back 30 days later and does the same thing all over again. But then you get pissed at the people who point it out to you.
Quote from: Henry Sugar on January 23, 2015, 01:40:40 PM
Back on topic of Sandy vs JJJ
I don't regard a substitution effect between the two players. They are different kinds of players right now.
- JJJ is a high-volume (25% usage), low efficient (ORtg of 89) player. Ugh. That's the worst. Seriously, my least favorite type of player
- Sandy is a role-player, low-volume (15% usage), but high efficient (ORtg of 115). That's a good beginning.
Typically, I'd say that the numbers favor Sandy in a slam dunk. However, there are other considerations to make.
How will these players grow over the next few years?
- Will JJJ improve his efficiency while keeping his usage high? If he can get his efficiency better with a high usage, that's a senior year super-star
- Can Cohen keep his efficiency high while increasing his usage? Typically, increased usage leads to less efficiency.
In addition, despite the shortcomings of JJJ, I'd like to note that he has already had two exceptional games this year (Tennessee-Martin; North Dakota). I calculate both games as top 10%-type games. His six game stretch from ASU through Providence was net positive in every game. He's had a rough four game stretch, but so has pretty much everyone not named Carlino. I still calculate JJJ as the fourth most productive member of the team so far.
Last, JJJ is pretty solid (nationally ranked) with his assist rate and steal rate. Ideally he backs off some of the shots and cuts down on the TOs.
Good post. IMO, JJJ needs to take a deep breath, stop forcing things and just start playing basketball. I really think he's going to be fine.
Quote from: NersEllenson on January 23, 2015, 12:00:49 PM
Derrick is playing a guard position. Period. JJJ and Cohen are also guards. You move Duane to PG, and shift 20 of Derrick's minutes to Cohen/JJJ.
Like it or not, both JJJ and Cohen are more talented than Derrick. Period. Talent wins games. Our team would be so much more dynamic with this lineup:
St. John's has a lot more talent than us and they have the same record as us in the Big East.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on January 23, 2015, 01:56:50 PM
Good post. IMO, JJJ needs to take a deep breath, stop forcing things and just start playing basketball. I really think he's going to be fine.
Completely agree.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 23, 2015, 10:29:07 AM
All this BS about Derrick vs JJJ or "grooming" Duane is just that. Want a few less minutes for Derrick and a few more for Duane? Reasonable. Nobody would bitch about that. But this JJJ for Derrick stuff is insane. They don't remotely play the same position. JJJ and Sandy do. Here's how they stack up vs one another in Big East play:
Min FG FGA FG% 3s Att 3% TO TO/40 Min
JJJ 86 10 36 27 0 11 0 12 5.6
Sandy 84 8 17 47 4 9 44 3 1.4
They've both score 20 points on field goals but JJJ has taken more than twice as many shots. Sandy is an excellent 3 point shooter. JJJ is as bad as a player can be. Sandy's turnovers/minutes is excellent. JJJ is a turnover machine.
They (together) average 34 minutes per game (each has 1 DNP). Want to bump that to maybe 40? Fine. Take 3 away from Juan and 3 from Derrick. But the split should be 25-30 Sandy and 10-15 JJJ based on their performance in the games. JJJ is an awesome athlete. He has the "wow" factor (see Carlton Christian) that many fall in love with. But even dismissing his attitude/practice habits he's not getting it done on the floor. Until he is, let's have more Sandy and less JJJ.
Wondered how JJJ faired shooting from deep against Big East opponents last year. Thought maybe this year was an anomaly. It wasn't. He had a lot of DNPs in conference games last year but he still managed to put up 7 three pointers - and missed them all. He's now 0-18 from 3 in his Big East career - and he's a SHOOTING guard.
I think JJJ needs to find a low D-1 program for a transfer following this year. He's on an 8 man roster and his minutes are decreasing. He's had every opportunity and then some to show he can play and it isn't happening. It's not like he's buried behind all these good, more experience players. If he can't show something on this team, he's a lost cause. And I believe he's a lost cause.
JJJ is a very quick offensive player. He doesn't finish at the rim with his left hand as well as Duane. Right now, his jumper isn't going in and he has no mid range game. So, either he gets to the rim with his right hand or he doesn't score. With his athleticism, hone the jumper, develop a left, and learn a mid-range jumper, a la Vander. JJJ is a marginally better defender, as he has a knack for getting into the passing lanes and generating steals. He is bad in man defense. I haven't given up on him, but he has to put in the work and expand his game.
Sandy is a better shooter and has shown the willingness to attack the rack with reckless abandon. Wojo praises his work ethic and attitude. He is longer. His defense is coming along but is not good yet.
I like them both. As Sandy is only a freshman and JJJ is a sophomore, I like Sandy's chances of maxing out his talent more than I like JJJ's.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on January 23, 2015, 01:34:59 PM
So .. what you're saying is that it only works like 80% of the time, and that's not worth it?
If the 20% is utterly ridiculous, I can see the argument of those that would say no.
That said, some of the attacks on our players seem more than a bit OTT and I can also understand those that would rather defend our players than simply bury their heads in the sand and act like the comments don't exist. I have used the ignore feature, but for different reasons than that.
Either way, not everyone will put him on ignore, and some will continue to engage the debate, so whether a handful do or not, it will continue (http://cluster.t5d5.org/public/style_emoticons/default/shrug.gif)
Sandy is going to be a huge contributor to this program. His mistakes now, mostly defensively, to me seem to be solely due to inexperience. His length, ball handling, shooting ability from deep, and athleticism are impossible to miss. You don't score 12 pts in about 12 minutes like he did against Providence unless you're a serious ballplayer (those were all difficult shots he made too, no bunnies). JJJ maybe could score 12 in 12 in CYO ball, maybe.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 23, 2015, 01:59:45 PM
Wondered how JJJ faired shooting from deep against Big East opponents last year. Thought maybe this year was an anomaly. It wasn't. He had a lot of DNPs in conference games last year but he still managed to put up 7 three pointers - and missed them all. He's now 0-18 from 3 in his Big East career - and he's a SHOOTING guard.
I think you missed a few. I have JjJ as 2-11 in conference play last season. Hit one against Providence and one at Villanova.
Still garbage numbers, for sure.
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on January 23, 2015, 02:12:35 PM
Sandy is going to be a huge contributor to this program. His mistakes now, mostly defensively, to me seem to be solely due to inexperience. His length, ball handling, shooting ability from deep, and athleticism are impossible to miss. You don't score 12 pts in about 12 minutes like he did against Providence unless you're a serious ballplayer (those were all difficult shots he made too, no bunnies). JJJ maybe could score 12 in 12 in CYO ball, maybe.
Read Sugar's post again.
Quote from: Canned Goods n Ammo on January 23, 2015, 02:18:57 PM
Read Sugar's post again.
What, increase useage leads to less efficiency? I presume you mean that.
Well no kidding, my point is you have to have serious talent and ability to do what he did against Providence, and again, all on difficult and variety of shots. Of course that's not going to be the norm, but it's clearly an indicator of how good he's going to be with more experience.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on January 23, 2015, 01:52:16 PM
I find it funny that you ban a guy for bringing Derrick into every thread. He comes back 30 days later and does the same thing all over again. But then you get pissed at the people who point it out to you.
I didn't ban him, rocky did. And, I'm not pissed.
I want to remind people to use the ignore button. We get "flags" all the time for 4-5 different posters not because a poster has broken rules (http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=3.0) but because the reporter is just downright irked due to the content they'd rather not see.
That's where the ignore button comes in.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on January 23, 2015, 02:23:28 PM
That's where the ignore button comes in.
I love the ignore button so much. It has really enhanced my Scoop reading pleasure.
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on January 23, 2015, 02:22:37 PM
What, increase useage leads to less efficiency? I presume you mean that.
Well no kidding, my point is you have to have serious talent and ability to do what he did against Providence, and again, all on difficult and variety of shots. Of course that's not going to be the norm, but it's clearly an indicator of how good he's going to be with more experience.
Actually, I was talking about JJJ's 2 outstanding games, and good 6 game stretch.
If you're this excited about Sandy's good performances, why aren't you excited about JJJ?
As I told you in the other thread, these kids have played less than 1/2 of their college games. They have serious limitations/holes right now. Doesn't mean they won't be productive later on.
Quote from: Canned Goods n Ammo on January 23, 2015, 02:26:39 PM
Actually, I was talking about JJJ's 2 outstanding games, and good 6 game stretch.
If you're this excited about Sandy's good performances, why aren't you excited about JJJ?
As I told you in the other thread, these kids have played less than 1/2 of their college games. They have serious limitations/holes right now. Doesn't mean they won't be productive later on.
Outstanding games- agains UT Martin & North Dakota? Impressive, like the true Horizon Leaguer he is. I don't know what 6 game stretch you're referring to because he's never put that many good games together, or close. He had some decent games, but again against garbage competition.
Put aside your MU blinders and judge him objectively. I love MU basketball, but I'm not going to let myself be duped into thinking guys are better than they are because they wear the uniform of the program I'm a die hard fan of.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on January 23, 2015, 02:23:28 PM
I didn't ban him, rocky did. And, I'm not pissed.
I want to remind people to use the ignore button. We get "flags" all the time for 4-5 different posters not because a poster has broken rules (http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=3.0) but because the reporter is just downright irked due to the content they'd rather not see.
That's where the ignore button comes in.
I hear you Topper and I have had Ners on ignore for a year. Scoop is just better when Ners isn't polluting it.
Quote from: Henry Sugar on January 23, 2015, 01:40:40 PM
How will these players grow over the next few years?
- Will JJJ improve his efficiency while keeping his usage high? If he can get his efficiency better with a high usage, that's a senior year super-star
- Can Cohen keep his efficiency high while increasing his usage? Typically, increased usage leads to less efficiency.
High usage + high efficiency = star.
Low usage + high efficiency = solid role player
Low usage + low efficiency = limited role player
High usage + low efficiency = disaster.
Serious question - how much does a 25% usage, 89 oRTG guy hurt a team? Are there any guys right now in D1 ball with that bad a combination playing 20+ minutes other than JJJ?
I understand JJJ's potential. If he improves his handle and stops taking tons of shot he can't make he could be a star. But IMO you don't reward a guy who plays out of control with MORE minutes. Cut back his PT, and reward him with more as/if he earns it. Otherwise you're giving away games.
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on January 23, 2015, 02:35:08 PM
Outstanding games- agains UT Martin & North Dakota? Impressive, like the true Horizon Leaguer he is. I don't know what 6 game stretch you're referring to because he's never put that many good games together, or close. He had some decent games, but again against garbage competition.
Put aside your MU blinders and judge him objectively.
It's a bit ironic, because we have 1 poster who wants JJJ to get 35+ mpg, and then we have another (you) who presumably wants him to get as few as possible and hope he doesn't come back.
Truthfully, objectively, I think Henry Sugar's stats tell the story. JJJ's a kid with some upside, but he's very inconsistent and he's still learning to play at this level.
The SJU game was a microcosm. Great dunk, poor defensive execution seconds later.
Now, if he was a Senior, I'd agree that he's a finished project and not really good.
But, he's a SOPH. He's barely 1/2 way through his soph. season.
Might be a little early to write him off, right?
Quote from: Canned Goods n Ammo on January 23, 2015, 02:40:10 PM
It's a bit ironic, because we have 1 poster who wants JJJ to get 35+ mpg, and then we have another (you) who presumably wants him to get as few as possible and hope he doesn't come back.
Truthfully, objectively, I think Henry Sugar's stats tell the story. JJJ's a kid with some upside, but he's very inconsistent and he's still learning to play at this level.
The SJU game was a microcosm. Great dunk, poor defensive execution seconds later.
Now, if he was a Senior, I'd agree that he's a finished project and not really good.
But, he's a SOPH. He's barely 1/2 way through his soph. season.
Might be a little early to write him off, right?
Wrong. We'll agree to disagree, but I am very confident that when all is said and done, I'll be 100% correct about him right now.
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on January 23, 2015, 02:41:55 PM
Wrong. We'll agree to disagree, but I am very confident that when all is said and done, I'll be 100% correct about him right now.
I smell a Scoop wager coming up!
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 23, 2015, 02:36:53 PMSerious question - how much does a 25% usage, 89 oRTG guy hurt a team? Are there any guys right now in D1 ball with that bad a combination playing 20+ minutes other than JJJ?
The #1 guy in terms of usage is Elon's Elijah Bryant, with a 41.0% usage rate and 87.4 ORtg. In Elon's 10 losses, his missed shots and turnovers have clearly killed the team.
In terms of high-majors, the biggest killer combination I saw was Milwaukee native Cinmeon Bowers. 30.7% usage rate, 88.6 ORtg. I haven't watched a ton of Auburn, but I wonder if his usage is inflated a bit (like Gardner's was) because of offensive rebounds. He's #23 in the country in offensive rebound percentage, and even better (#4) in defensive rebound percentage. While his shooting sucks for a big man (45% from 2, 12.5% from 3) his rebounding ability likely keeps him on the floor.
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on January 23, 2015, 02:41:55 PM
Wrong. We'll agree to disagree, but I am very confident that when all is said and done, I'll be 100% correct about him right now.
Define 100% correct.
He's not going to be on the roster next season?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 23, 2015, 02:36:53 PM
High usage + high efficiency = star.
Low usage + high efficiency = solid role player
Low usage + low efficiency = limited roleBench player
High usage + low efficiency = disaster.
Serious question - how much does a 25% usage, 89 oRTG guy hurt a team? Are there any guys right now in D1 ball with that bad a combination playing 20+ minutes other than JJJ?
I understand JJJ's potential. If he improves his handle and stops taking tons of shot he can't make he could be a star. But IMO you don't reward a guy who plays out of control with MORE minutes. Cut back his PT, and reward him with more as/if he earns it. Otherwise you're giving away games.
I don't think anyone is arguing for more minutes for JJJ. However, I do believe that right now people are suffering from availability bias about him. He has had a rough stretch of four games. Before that, he was pretty good for six straight games.
I don't know how much a high usage, low efficiency player hurts a generic team. However, I still calculate JJJ as the fourth most productive member of the team so far.
The most useful comparison for him in my mind is Jerel McNeal. McNeal had a higher usage rate than JJJ, and was also poor efficiently his freshmen and sophomore seasons. Once McNeal got to be a junior, he was a good player.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 23, 2015, 10:29:07 AM
All this BS about Derrick vs JJJ or "grooming" Duane is just that. Want a few less minutes for Derrick and a few more for Duane? Reasonable. Nobody would bitch about that. But this JJJ for Derrick stuff is insane. They don't remotely play the same position. JJJ and Sandy do. Here's how they stack up vs one another in Big East play:
Min FG FGA FG% 3s Att 3% TO TO/40 Min
JJJ 86 10 36 27 0 11 0 12 5.6
Sandy 84 8 17 47 4 9 44 3 1.4
They've both score 20 points on field goals but JJJ has taken more than twice as many shots. Sandy is an excellent 3 point shooter. JJJ is as bad as a player can be. Sandy's turnovers/minutes is excellent. JJJ is a turnover machine.
They (together) average 34 minutes per game (each has 1 DNP). Want to bump that to maybe 40? Fine. Take 3 away from Juan and 3 from Derrick. But the split should be 25-30 Sandy and 10-15 JJJ based on their performance in the games. JJJ is an awesome athlete. He has the "wow" factor (see Carlton Christian) that many fall in love with. But even dismissing his attitude/practice habits he's not getting it done on the floor. Until he is, let's have more Sandy and less JJJ.
This is impossible because JJJ was a top-30 high school player and Sandy wasn't. And we all know that means everything.
Quote from: Henry Sugar on January 23, 2015, 03:03:31 PM
I don't think anyone is arguing for more minutes for JJJ.
Actually someone was. My rejoinder to that was why not play Sandy more instead of JJJ - they play the same position and right now anyway Cohen is playing better.
Quote from: Henry Sugar on January 23, 2015, 03:03:31 PM
I don't think anyone is arguing for more minutes for JJJ. However, I do believe that right now people are suffering from availability bias about him. He has had a rough stretch of four games. Before that, he was pretty good for six straight games.
I don't know how much a high usage, low efficiency player hurts a generic team. However, I still calculate JJJ as the fourth most productive member of the team so far.
The most useful comparison for him in my mind is Jerel McNeal. McNeal had a higher usage rate than JJJ, and was also poor efficiently his freshmen and sophomore seasons. Once McNeal got to be a junior, he was a good player.
Jerel was never shy.
I was always okay with it though. The guy worked so hard on defense the first couple of seasons that he created extra possessions for his team. That South Florida steal and layup is still insane.
Quote from: Henry Sugar on January 23, 2015, 03:03:31 PM
The most useful comparison for him in my mind is Jerel McNeal. McNeal had a higher usage rate than JJJ, and was also poor efficiently his freshmen and sophomore seasons. Once McNeal got to be a junior, he was a good player.
Agree on Jerel. He drove me crazy for two years, I'll admit - even after that sometimes. And JJJ is a bigger, stronger version of Jerel. Hope the light goes on.
Quote from: Canned Goods n Ammo on January 23, 2015, 03:12:05 PM
Jerel was never shy.
I was always okay with it though. The guy worked so hard on defense the first couple of seasons that he created extra possessions for his team. That South Florida steal and layup is still insane.
Goosebumps. Probably the second most exciting moment of my college tenure (the Novak dagger vs ND being #1.) Best of all was the Air Jordan XX2 ad released just weeks later. Coincidence?
http://youtu.be/rgVClINRyrc
Quote from: Lennys Tap on January 23, 2015, 03:15:45 PM
Agree on Jerel. He drove me crazy for two years, I'll admit - even after that sometimes. And JJJ is a bigger, stronger version of Jerel. Hope the light goes on.
Jerel, along with Dom and Wes had the HUGE benefit of all basically playing 30 minutes a game, EVERY game, right out of the gate of their careers. Oddly, they happened to win 10 Big East games in the REAL Big East their freshman year - and they only had Novak is a polished upperclassmen.
To your point - Jerel drove you crazy. Just as at times Dom did, and Wes too. The point is, that when you play talented kids max minutes - such as JJJ/Cohen - over time that potential and talent come out and get normalized. When you marginalize a player into spotty minutes here and there - they simply can't perform well on a consistent basis.
The comparison of most accuracy is Vander. JJJ and he are basically the same player as a sophomore. Believe JJJ has a bit more offensive ability than Vander, whereas Vander a better defender.
Quote from: NersEllenson on January 23, 2015, 04:00:34 PMTo your point - Jerel drove you crazy. Just as at times Dom did, and Wes too. The point is, that when you play talented kids max minutes - such as JJJ/Cohen - over time that potential and talent come out and get normalized. When you marginalize a player into spotty minutes here and there - they simply can't perform well on a consistent basis.
Hmm...let's look 70 miles West to see if that is true...
2003-04 Kammron Taylor: 2.3 mpg, 1.2 ppg, 0.1 rpg, 0.1 apg
2005-06 Kammron Taylor: 34.3 mpg, 14.2 ppg, 3.0 rpg, 2.4 apg
2004-05 Brian Butch: 9.7 mpg, 3.6 ppg, 2.5 rpg
2005-06 Brain Butch: 24.1 mpg, 9.9 ppg, 6.0 rpg
2007-08 Jon Leuer: 8.6 mpg, 2.9 ppg, 1.3 rpg
2009-10 Jon Leuer: 28.8 mpg, 15.4 ppg, 5.8 rpg
2008-09 Jordan Taylor: 13.2 mpg, 1.6 ppg, 1.2 apg
2010-11 Jordan Taylor: 36.5 mpg, 18.1 ppg, 4.7 apg
2010-11 Jared Berggren: 6.9 mpg, 2.4 ppg, 1.1 rpg
2011-12 Jared Berggren: 28.5 mpg, 11.0 ppg, 6.9 rpg
2012-13 Frank Kaminsky: 10.3 mpg, 4.2 ppg, 1.8 rpg
2013-14 Frank Kaminsky: 27.2 mpg, 13.9 ppg, 6.3 rpg
There's plenty to dislike about Madison, but there are a TON of guys there that are happy to wait their turn, learn on the bench, in practice, and by understudying the guys ahead of them, then in a year or two after getting inconsequential minutes suddenly step up to being stars. Hate Bo all you like, he has done a brilliant job of squelching that pathetic sense of entitlement that has so many people transferring. And while this is just one school as an example, there are plenty of guys around the country that don't play much as underclassmen, learn how to compete at a high level, and emerge as quality starters when their time comes.
This is one aspect of our culture I really hope Wojo fixes. Would guys like Jamail, Jamal Ferguson, E-Will, or Dawson have been studs here? Who knows. But maybe if you're patient, learn the system, and actually put in the work rather than running like a coward because things aren't being handed to you on a silver platter, you'll be able to emerge when your time comes.
Quote from: brewcity77 on January 23, 2015, 04:48:53 PM
Hmm...let's look 70 miles West to see if that is true...
2003-04 Kammron Taylor: 2.3 mpg, 1.2 ppg, 0.1 rpg, 0.1 apg
2005-06 Kammron Taylor: 34.3 mpg, 14.2 ppg, 3.0 rpg, 2.4 apg
2004-05 Brian Butch: 9.7 mpg, 3.6 ppg, 2.5 rpg
2005-06 Brain Butch: 24.1 mpg, 9.9 ppg, 6.0 rpg
2007-08 Jon Leuer: 8.6 mpg, 2.9 ppg, 1.3 rpg
2009-10 Jon Leuer: 28.8 mpg, 15.4 ppg, 5.8 rpg
2008-09 Jordan Taylor: 13.2 mpg, 1.6 ppg, 1.2 apg
2010-11 Jordan Taylor: 36.5 mpg, 18.1 ppg, 4.7 apg
2010-11 Jared Berggren: 6.9 mpg, 2.4 ppg, 1.1 rpg
2011-12 Jared Berggren: 28.5 mpg, 11.0 ppg, 6.9 rpg
2012-13 Frank Kaminsky: 10.3 mpg, 4.2 ppg, 1.8 rpg
2013-14 Frank Kaminsky: 27.2 mpg, 13.9 ppg, 6.3 rpg
There's plenty to dislike about Madison, but there are a TON of guys there that are happy to wait their turn, learn on the bench, in practice, and by understudying the guys ahead of them, then in a year or two after getting inconsequential minutes suddenly step up to being stars. Hate Bo all you like, he has done a brilliant job of squelching that pathetic sense of entitlement that has so many people transferring. And while this is just one school as an example, there are plenty of guys around the country that don't play much as underclassmen, learn how to compete at a high level, and emerge as quality starters when their time comes.
This is one aspect of our culture I really hope Wojo fixes. Would guys like Jamail, Jamal Ferguson, E-Will, or Dawson have been studs here? Who knows. But maybe if you're patient, learn the system, and actually put in the work rather than running like a coward because things aren't being handed to you on a silver platter, you'll be able to emerge when your time comes.
Brew, no facts please. He was a HS Superstar in bum fu## and he knows everyone else is wrong.
Quote from: brewcity77 on January 23, 2015, 04:48:53 PM
Hmm...let's look 70 miles West to see if that is true...
2003-04 Kammron Taylor: 2.3 mpg, 1.2 ppg, 0.1 rpg, 0.1 apg
2005-06 Kammron Taylor: 34.3 mpg, 14.2 ppg, 3.0 rpg, 2.4 apg
2004-05 Brian Butch: 9.7 mpg, 3.6 ppg, 2.5 rpg
2005-06 Brain Butch: 24.1 mpg, 9.9 ppg, 6.0 rpg
2007-08 Jon Leuer: 8.6 mpg, 2.9 ppg, 1.3 rpg
2009-10 Jon Leuer: 28.8 mpg, 15.4 ppg, 5.8 rpg
2008-09 Jordan Taylor: 13.2 mpg, 1.6 ppg, 1.2 apg
2010-11 Jordan Taylor: 36.5 mpg, 18.1 ppg, 4.7 apg
2010-11 Jared Berggren: 6.9 mpg, 2.4 ppg, 1.1 rpg
2011-12 Jared Berggren: 28.5 mpg, 11.0 ppg, 6.9 rpg
2012-13 Frank Kaminsky: 10.3 mpg, 4.2 ppg, 1.8 rpg
2013-14 Frank Kaminsky: 27.2 mpg, 13.9 ppg, 6.3 rpg
There's plenty to dislike about Madison, but there are a TON of guys there that are happy to wait their turn, learn on the bench, in practice, and by understudying the guys ahead of them, then in a year or two after getting inconsequential minutes suddenly step up to being stars. Hate Bo all you like, he has done a brilliant job of squelching that pathetic sense of entitlement that has so many people transferring. And while this is just one school as an example, there are plenty of guys around the country that don't play much as underclassmen, learn how to compete at a high level, and emerge as quality starters when their time comes.
This is one aspect of our culture I really hope Wojo fixes. Would guys like Jamail, Jamal Ferguson, E-Will, or Dawson have been studs here? Who knows. But maybe if you're patient, learn the system, and actually put in the work rather than running like a coward because things aren't being handed to you on a silver platter, you'll be able to emerge when your time comes.
I have a ton or respect for Bo Ryan. He's been a winner everywhere. His systems works. And it's been proven out over time. He generally is able to take 3 star guys and make them very good players either via a 5 year redshirt program, or to your point by the time they are a senior.
Context is also necessary. It doesn't SUCK to sit on the bench when your team is winning consistently, and the upperclassmen ahead of you is playing solidly/well. Different story if your team is losing consistently, and the guy ahead of you is struggling at historic levels. Now this season, we only had 10 guys on the team to start the year - if you are Dawson and know Buzz at least gave you 10-15 minutes per game in most all of the non-conference schedule as a freshman - but now your new coach gives you 4 minutes and then 9 DNP's?? You gonna stick around for that?
I'm sure it would be hard for you to acknowledge - but for real: You are Dawson - You get 1 legit playing time opportunity of 32 minutes. You compete very well, play a key hand in victory, over a solid Big East team on the road - while the guy in front of you has been floundering significantly. Would you not think your performance against GTown might earn you more than 8 minutes the next game?
Quote from: NersEllenson on January 23, 2015, 05:03:25 PMYou are Dawson - You get 1 legit playing time opportunity of 32 minutes. You compete very well, play a key hand in victory, over a solid Big East team on the road - while the guy in front of you has been floundering significantly. Would you not think your performance against GTown might earn you more than 8 minutes the next game?
I would acknowledge that I am a freshman, shut my mouth, and do what the coach says. Because I'm a freshman, I don't know crap about the overall plan, and the people that have been here before me probably know a thing or two about how to succeed.
Quote from: 79Warrior on January 23, 2015, 04:59:09 PM
Brew, no facts please. He was a HS Superstar in bum fu## and he knows everyone else is wrong.
Are you capable of even trying to dispute the points I make? Clearly not, as this is the only drivel you've got. At least Brew, TAMU, Sultan and others I disagree with frequently, can offer a well-reasoned counter point. You? Not so much. Shoot blank after blank. Nonetheless, I'm sure you've been a great "yes" man at your place of employment
But rock on Internet tough guy.
Quote from: brewcity77 on January 23, 2015, 05:07:56 PM
I would acknowledge that I am a freshman, shut my mouth, and do what the coach says. Because I'm a freshman, I don't know crap about the overall plan, and the people that have been here before me probably know a thing or two about how to succeed.
Figured you couldn't answer the question legitimately. And for what it's worth - Dawson did shut his mouth, work hard, and maintain a very good attitude all of last season, and again this one.
But I do applaud you for apparently being a good soldier, even if you are straight up getting drilled up your a$$.
Ners you got clearly too close to the family to know how hard he worked. No one really knows. And really grow up with your insults. Middle school stuff.
And with that I announce my Ners moratorium. I will try my best not to perpetuate this nonsense.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on January 23, 2015, 05:17:43 PM
Ners you got clearly too close to the family to know how hard he worked. No one really knows. And really grow up with your insults. Middle school stuff.
And with that I announce my Ners moratorium. I will try my best not to perpetuate this nonsense.
LOL - Grow up with your insults. Ever take any of the advice you give Sultan? And Buzz made multiple comments about John having a good approach and work ethic.
Quote from: NersEllenson on January 23, 2015, 05:03:25 PM
I have a ton or respect for Bo Ryan. He's been a winner everywhere. His systems works. And it's been proven out over time. He generally is able to take 3 star guys and make them very good players either via a 5 year redshirt program, or to your point by the time they are a senior.
Context is also necessary. It doesn't SUCK to sit on the bench when your team is winning consistently, and the upperclassmen ahead of you is playing solidly/well. Different story if your team is losing consistently, and the guy ahead of you is struggling at historic levels. Now this season, we only had 10 guys on the team to start the year - if you are Dawson and know Buzz at least gave you 10-15 minutes per game in most all of the non-conference schedule as a freshman - but now your new coach gives you 4 minutes and then 9 DNP's?? You gonna stick around for that?
I'm sure it would be hard for you to acknowledge - but for real: You are Dawson - You get 1 legit playing time opportunity of 32 minutes. You compete very well, play a key hand in victory, over a solid Big East team on the road - while the guy in front of you has been floundering significantly. Would you not think your performance against GTown might earn you more than 8 minutes the next game?
So at first you say top talent/potential should play 30 minutes right out of the gate to maximize what they have (never mind that plan makes it near impossible to keep recruiting classes coming in). Then you agree you can reach the same potential by learning in practice/on the bench as they do in MadisoN. so is it one or the other? Or can both ways work. Because it seems like you're saying both ways work.
Now, you add the caveat about context, ie. Losing games. But that shouldn't matter when it comes to developing that talent. Practice and game minutes are the same win or lose.
Quote from: mu_hilltopper on January 23, 2015, 01:34:59 PM
So .. what you're saying is that it only works like 80% of the time, and that's not worth it?
No, what I'm saying is even when you have him on ignore, you still see every single thing he posts because they're all quoted.
That is not worth it.
Quote from: NersEllenson on January 23, 2015, 04:00:34 PM
Jerel, along with Dom and Wes had the HUGE benefit of all basically playing 30 minutes a game, EVERY game, right out of the gate of their careers. Oddly, they happened to win 10 Big East games in the REAL Big East their freshman year - and they only had Novak is a polished upperclassmen.
To your point - Jerel drove you crazy. Just as at times Dom did, and Wes too. The point is, that when you play talented kids max minutes - such as JJJ/Cohen - over time that potential and talent come out and get normalized. When you marginalize a player into spotty minutes here and there - they simply can't perform well on a consistent basis.
The comparison of most accuracy is Vander. JJJ and he are basically the same player as a sophomore. Believe JJJ has a bit more offensive ability than Vander, whereas Vander a better defender.
Not true. When they played bad they would often sit. Wes had a game his freshman year that I remember where he turned the ball over repeatedly. What happened, he got benched, played 9 minutes. When you play bad you sit. All coaches do this.
JJJ has been prone to being the worst player on the court. He has also had games where he was our best player. When he is on, you play him, when he is off he sits. That is called good coaching by 99.9% of all people that know basketball.
Wow...did you really post these two things within 10 minutes of each other?
Quote from: NersEllenson on January 23, 2015, 05:21:34 PMLOL - Grow up with your insults. Ever take any of the advice you give Sultan? And Buzz made multiple comments about John having a good approach and work ethic.
Quote from: NersEllenson on January 23, 2015, 05:12:41 PM
Figured you couldn't answer the question legitimately. And for what it's worth - Dawson did shut his mouth, work hard, and maintain a very good attitude all of last season, and again this one.
But I do applaud you for apparently being a good soldier, even if you are straight up getting drilled up your a$$.
(http://new2.fjcdn.com/comments/5289465+_b5033e41c86914e0f0ba519f50f2f4e0.jpg)
I've learned a ton by following in the footsteps of those that came before me. I find that people that have been doing my job for years and years usually have a reason for doing things differently than maybe I think is best, and I've found that by shutting up, watching and learning and doing the things they advise, in time I usually start to understand why they do things the way they do and realize that all the things I thought were best when I was a little younger and a little more inexperienced were things they already knew weren't as effective.
You are the classic example of someone who thinks he knows best about everything. Hates admitting when you're wrong, disagreeing with any form of evidence, no matter how blatant, that contradicts your opinion. We have two coaching staffs that have come to the same conclusion about these players, yet you still persist in banging your head against the wall until your skull splits because, gosh darn it, you just know that next time you'll get through the concrete.
And of course, as is par for the course, you have AGAIN turned a thread that has ZERO to do with Derrick and Dawson into a thread about Derrick and Dawson.
SMH...just a few more times, Ners!
(http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lrh6b3fvBh1qe3fl9.gif)
Quote from: brewcity77 on January 23, 2015, 06:15:31 PM
Wow...did you really post these two things within 10 minutes of each other?
(http://new2.fjcdn.com/comments/5289465+_b5033e41c86914e0f0ba519f50f2f4e0.jpg)
I've learned a ton by following in the footsteps of those that came before me. I find that people that have been doing my job for years and years usually have a reason for doing things differently than maybe I think is best, and I've found that by shutting up, watching and learning and doing the things they advise, in time I usually start to understand why they do things the way they do and realize that all the things I thought were best when I was a little younger and a little more inexperienced were things they already knew weren't as effective.
You are the classic example of someone who thinks he knows best about everything. Hates admitting when you're wrong, disagreeing with any form of evidence, no matter how blatant, that contradicts your opinion. We have two coaching staffs that have come to the same conclusion about these players, yet you still persist in banging your head against the wall until your skull splits because, gosh darn it, you just know that next time you'll get through the concrete.
And of course, as is par for the course, you have AGAIN turned a thread that has ZERO to do with Derrick and Dawson into a thread about Derrick and Dawson.
SMH...just a few more times, Ners!
(http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lrh6b3fvBh1qe3fl9.gif)
Nice post Brew. I admire you ability to be a good soldier - which is certainly admirable if you are under good leadership in the workplace. Following Buzz's lead last season wasn't exactly a good call. As you know I was a HUGE Buzz fan. Yes, I turned on him last season - and early in the season - when it was obvious he wasn't right, nor were his decisions, and that if he didn't change it would result in disaster. Sorry, it turned out to be true/accurate. Not just on our final record, but also on the fact that Buzz was peace out..
And, if you want to discuss beating a dead horse - that's been proven out and done by Buzz and now Wojo again this year. And the results once again will be the same - and all kinds of excuses will once again be made for our coach/the player in question.
Quote from: HutchwasClutch on January 23, 2015, 02:02:14 PM
I think JJJ needs to find a low D-1 program for a transfer following this year. He's on an 8 man roster and his minutes are decreasing. He's had every opportunity and then some to show he can play and it isn't happening. It's not like he's buried behind all these good, more experience players. If he can't show something on this team, he's a lost cause. And I believe he's a lost cause.
Now that is laughable. Did you say the same about Cadougan, Derrick or Juan half way through their soph season? Because that is the logic you are using!
Quote from: NersEllenson on January 24, 2015, 10:46:10 AM
Nice post Brew. I admire you ability to be a good soldier - which is certainly admirable if you are under good leadership in the workplace. Following Buzz's lead last season wasn't exactly a good call. As you know I was a HUGE Buzz fan. Yes, I turned on him last season - and early in the season - when it was obvious he wasn't right, nor were his decisions, and that if he didn't change it would result in disaster. Sorry, it turned out to be true/accurate. Not just on our final record, but also on the fact that Buzz was peace out..
And, if you want to discuss beating a dead horse - that's been proven out and done by Buzz and now Wojo again this year. And the results once again will be the same - and all kinds of excuses will once again be made for our coach/the player in question.
Ners,
You didn't turn on Buzz last season because "he wasn't right." You turned on him because we were losing. Last year, Buzz did all the same things he did in previous seasons. Before they worked, last season they didn't. You don't accept losing from Marquette. Which is admirable. Being fiercely competitive and refusing to accept a loss can take you very far in life. It can push you to keep fighting and come out with a victory against all odds. I'm sure this has helped you in your real life many a time. What happened last year was that it was easier for you to believe that the coach was either screwing up or throwing games than it was to believe that we didn't have a very good team. Because if the coach was screwing up, all it would take is him to see the error of his ways. Then he would start playing the right players and we would win again! To you, that is better than the alternative, because the alternative would mean more losses.
The same thing is happening this season. Despite all evidence to the contrary, you projected an NCAA tournament appearance for a team that most experts picked to finish 9th in the Big East. And to nobody's surprise but a few optimists here, we started losing. Rather than accept all the evidence that says we didn't have a winning roster and we are going to be in for a long season, you focused on the coach. If only the coach would stop mistreating and misusing his players, we would win. You believe this again because it allows you to keep hoping that we are going to start winning at a high rate again. The alternative is to accept another mediocre season.
If we were winning, you wouldn't have given a damn about John transferring. You would have thanked him for his service and said "any player transferring to Liberty probably wouldn't help us anyway." You also wouldn't have cared about JjJ "wasting on the bench" (with 21 minutes a game). I think you would have still cared about Burton, kid is talented and it was definitely a blow to see him leave.
Don't confuse the rest of us as "accepting mediocrity" or "blindly following the coach." We hate that we are losing. We hate the position we have been put into by our previous coach's recruiting and departure. We desperately want to win. That doesn't mean we don't accept the limitations of our roster. We accept that we must struggle today so we can win later. We also hope that our players will figure it out and start performing better. We also disagree with Wojo. Quite frequently in fact. But one can disagree with a person, and still have enough respect for their experience and ability to trust that even though we disagree, that they are making the decision possible for our team.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 24, 2015, 11:37:52 AM
Ners,
You didn't turn on Buzz last season because "he wasn't right." You turned on him because we were losing. Last year, Buzz did all the same things he did in previous seasons. Before they worked, last season they didn't. You don't accept losing from Marquette. Which is admirable. Being fiercely competitive and refusing to accept a loss can take you very far in life. It can push you to keep fighting and come out with a victory against all odds. I'm sure this has helped you in your real life many a time. What happened last year was that it was easier for you to believe that the coach was either screwing up or throwing games than it was to believe that we didn't have a very good team. Because if the coach was screwing up, all it would take is him to see the error of his ways. Then he would start playing the right players and we would win again! To you, that is better than the alternative, because the alternative would mean more losses.
The same thing is happening this season. Despite all evidence to the contrary, you projected an NCAA tournament appearance for a team that most experts picked to finish 9th in the Big East. And to nobody's surprise but a few optimists here, we started losing. Rather than accept all the evidence that says we didn't have a winning roster and we are going to be in for a long season, you focused on the coach. If only the coach would stop mistreating and misusing his players, we would win. You believe this again because it allows you to keep hoping that we are going to start winning at a high rate again. The alternative is to accept another mediocre season.
If we were winning, you wouldn't have given a damn about John transferring. You would have thanked him for his service and said "any player transferring to Liberty probably wouldn't help us anyway." You also wouldn't have cared about JjJ "wasting on the bench" (with 21 minutes a game). I think you would have still cared about Burton, kid is talented and it was definitely a blow to see him leave.
Don't confuse the rest of us as "accepting mediocrity" or "blindly following the coach." We hate that we are losing. We hate the position we have been put into by our previous coach's recruiting and departure. We desperately want to win. That doesn't mean we don't accept the limitations of our roster. We accept that we must struggle today so we can win later. We also hope that our players will figure it out and start performing better. We also disagree with Wojo. Quite frequently in fact. But one can disagree with a person, and still have enough respect for their experience and ability to trust that even though we disagree, that they are making the decision possible for our team.
TAMU - What did most experts project for MU last year? Apparently predictions go wrong. However, I do feel last year's team should have had higher expectations than this year's given all of the returning experience. That said, I feel this team should have been a 22 win team given the talent in the program Wojo had upon taking over, and with the addition of Carlino.
Sugar just mentioned that since 2011 in his Win Shares analysis - the Top players consistently were Crowder, Gardner, Vander, Jamil, DJO, with a smattering of Mayo. Last year's team had 3 of those guys on it - 2 of which were seniors. And we missed the freaking NIT - and some here wanted to point to the "leadership" of Jamil and Devante as being the problem - even though they produced fairly well on the court given who they were paired with.
And as for Buzz not being "right." My take on that was not on the fact that we were losing early on in the season, it was based on his coaching decisions. He proved he was a good coach his first 5 years at MU. He's a bright guy. His head wasn't in the right place all of last season.
As for this season and last - Again, I believe the coach is not using the talent available to him properly. That's the beef. Furthermore, I refuse to accept that Wojo inherited such a challenging situation. Perhaps only Hank Raymonds walked into a better situation at MU with regard to how much talent there was in the program at the time of him taking over.
Quote from: bilsu on January 23, 2015, 01:57:24 PM
St. John's has a lot more talent than us and they have the same record as us in the Big East.
Not to mention that it is experienced, senior talent.
Quote from: wadesworld on January 23, 2015, 05:44:42 PM
No, what I'm saying is even when you have him on ignore, you still see every single thing he posts because they're all quoted. That is not worth it.
I've noticed I come to the board a lot less now that Ners is back.
There is simply no basketball subject that can be discussed without Ners carpet bombing the thread to smithereens with his Derrick comments.
And of course, he is still riding the Dawson train as well.
I've said it before (and it was probably taken as a joke), but there really is effective medication for OCD.
Last year's problem was more personality than anything. As good as Buzz is, he only seems to know one way to motivate. The underdog, try hard, we aren't any good didn't resonate with Jamil, Gardner, Mayo, and the rest of those guys the way it did with Jae, DJO, and Jimmy. Buzz created a culture, then recruited kids that didn't fit that culture. Whether that was Larry's fault, or misevaluation of talent, or just bad luck, it clearly didn't work.
And then we lost all our experienced scorers, our coach, and our recruiting class. I had NIT hopes early, but did feel the NCAAs were possible when league play started. Honestly, despite our struggles, I still think there's a chance, but the staff was handed a total rebuild. Yes, there's some raw talent, but very little experience and honestly, most of these guys haven't won much.
I have confidence in this staff. They've shown definite improvement, been competitive in every game despite the short bench, and are thus far recruiting at a very high level. It will be interesting to see the tone in the next couple years, once this staff puts some trophies in the case.
Quote from: NersEllenson on January 24, 2015, 12:04:08 PM
As for this season and last - Again, I believe the coach is not using the talent available to him properly. That's the beef. Furthermore, I refuse to accept that Wojo inherited such a challenging situation. Perhaps only Hank Raymonds walked into a better situation at MU with regard to how much talent there was in the program at the time of him taking over.
How are you assessing that talent? High school rankings? other posters have shown the college production of our current roster which leaves lots to be desired if production is indicative of talent.
Quote from: brandx on January 24, 2015, 12:22:06 PM
I've noticed I come to the board a lot less now that Ners is back.
There is simply no basketball subject that can be discussed without Ners carpet bombing the thread to smithereens with his Derrick comments.
And of course, he is still riding the Dawson train as well.
I've said it before (and it was probably taken as a joke), but there really is effective medication for OCD.
Agreed. Scoop was a lot easier to read the last month. I've told people who complain about a thread that they can easily avoid it by not entering a thread with a title they can tell will be about something they don't want to read, but when Ners is around every single thread turns into the subject I simply don't care to read about. He's wrong but he thinks his high school pedigree makes him more qualified then a coach who was a high school All American, a player at Duke, and his assistants who include former college All Americans and former professional point guards. Not to mention the former coach and his assistants. It's absurd, and no matter what the subject of the thread is, it always ends up the same damn way, just like this thread.
Quote from: brewcity77 on January 24, 2015, 12:23:54 PM
Last year's problem was more personality than anything. As good as Buzz is, he only seems to know one way to motivate. The underdog, try hard, we aren't any good didn't resonate with Jamil, Gardner, Mayo, and the rest of those guys the way it did with Jae, DJO, and Jimmy. Buzz created a culture, then recruited kids that didn't fit that culture. Whether that was Larry's fault, or misevaluation of talent, or just bad luck, it clearly didn't work.
And then we lost all our experienced scorers, our coach, and our recruiting class. I had NIT hopes early, but did feel the NCAAs were possible when league play started. Honestly, despite our struggles, I still think there's a chance, but the staff was handed a total rebuild. Yes, there's some raw talent, but very little experience and honestly, most of these guys haven't won much.
I have confidence in this staff. They've shown definite improvement, been competitive in every game despite the short bench, and are thus far recruiting at a very high level. It will be interesting to see the tone in the next couple years, once this staff puts some trophies in the case.
I agree with this. I'll also note that in trying to recruit the underdog (often then with low self-esteem). He focused on getting great athletes. He forgot the importance of being able to shoot (especially with good form) and to play under control.
That led to no natural PGs on the roster that could control tempo/possession except Derrick. It led to no one on the team that could consistently knock down the 3 besides Jake.
That carried over into this year, where we fortunately were able to pick up Carlino, to give us an outside threat and another ball handler.
Buzz's biggest problem wasn't his coaching, or his recruiting. It was in making sure he recruited a well balanced team with natural leaders.
So people get all excited about being top 100 talent. OK, let's see exactly who Wojo inherited and how they have performed relative to JJJ, Duane, Deonte and Luke. I am using the RSCI top 100 rankings and comparing them to players ranked three spots ahead and below.
27. Nigel Williams-Gross (14.7 ppg in 35+ mpg at Washington)
29. Zak Irvin (13.7 ppg in 34 mpg at Michigan)
30. Kuran Iverson (4.6 ppg in 11 mpg at Memphis)
30. JJJ (8.1 ppg in 21 mpg at Marquette)
32. Semi Ogeleye (Transferred from Duke to SMU after unspectacular year.)
33. Demitrius Jackson (13.6 ppg in 30+ mpg at Notre Dame)
34. Sindarious Thornwell (11.1 ppg in 30 mpg at South Carolina)
51. Troy Williams (13.5 ppg in 26 mpg at Indiana)
52. Matt Thomas (5.0 ppg in 17 mpg at Iowa State)
53. Terry Rozier (17.4 ppg in 30+ mpg - late bloomer entered rankings late)
54. Deonte
55. Devin Williams (10.8 ppg in 20+ mpg at West Virginia)
56. Kennedy Meeks (12.8 ppg in 20+ mpg at North Carolina)
57. Kendrik Nunn (10.6 ppg in 25+ mpg at Illinois)
58. Ishmail Wainwright (1.7 ppg in 12 mpg at Baylor)
59. Duane (11.1 ppg in 25+ mpg at Marquette)
60. John Egbunu (7.4 ppg in 24+ mpg last year at South Florida. Transferred to Florida)
61. Stanford Robinson (3.8 ppg in 10+ mpg at Indiana)
62. Allerick Freeman (5.5 ppg in 12+ mpg at Baylor)
68. Detrick Mostella (5.0 ppg in 15 mpg at Tennessee)
69. Nick Emery (BYU commit on Mormon mission)
70. Malcolm Hill (13.8 ppg in 28 mpg at Illinois)
71. Luke (10.8 ppg in 27 mpg at Marquette)
72. Stevie Clark (Transferred to Indian Hills after suspension at Oklahoma State)
73. Jordan Bell (5.8 ppg in 25+ mpg at Oregon)
74. Tim Quarterman (12.1 ppg in 25+ mpg at LSU)
Here are my conclusions:
**Very few 2013 top 100 players are truly high impact players when you drop down to the levels where Marquette's recruits are. There are some around JJJ. Terry Rozier is another
**By and large Marquette's recruits are performing about average when compared to those around them. Some are better, some are worse.
**The idea that Wojo inherited a bunch of players who were ready to lead Marquette to a bunch of wins is inaccurate because people are exaggerating the impact similarly rated players can have on a team as sophomores.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on January 24, 2015, 12:57:42 PM
So people get all excited about being top 100 talent. OK, let's see exactly who Wojo inherited and how they have performed relative to JJJ, Duane, Deonte and Luke. I am using the RSCI top 100 rankings and comparing them to players ranked three spots ahead and below.
27. Nigel Williams-Gross (14.7 ppg in 35+ mpg at Washington)
29. Zak Irvin (13.7 ppg in 34 mpg at Michigan)
30. Kuran Iverson (4.6 ppg in 11 mpg at Memphis)
30. JJJ (8.1 ppg in 21 mpg at Marquette)
32. Semi Ogeleye (Transferred from Duke to SMU after unspectacular year.)
33. Demitrius Jackson (13.6 ppg in 30+ mpg at Notre Dame)
34. Sindarious Thornwell (11.1 ppg in 30 mpg at South Carolina)
51. Troy Williams (13.5 ppg in 26 mpg at Indiana)
52. Matt Thomas (5.0 ppg in 17 mpg at Iowa State)
53. Terry Rozier (17.4 ppg in 30+ mpg - late bloomer entered rankings late)
54. Deonte
55. Devin Williams (10.8 ppg in 20+ mpg at West Virginia)
56. Kennedy Meeks (12.8 ppg in 20+ mpg at North Carolina)
57. Kendrik Nunn (10.6 ppg in 25+ mpg at Illinois)
58. Ishmail Wainwright (1.7 ppg in 12 mpg at Baylor)
59. Duane (11.1 ppg in 25+ mpg at Marquette)
60. John Egbunu (7.4 ppg in 24+ mpg last year at South Florida. Transferred to Florida)
61. Stanford Robinson (3.8 ppg in 10+ mpg at Indiana)
62. Allerick Freeman (5.5 ppg in 12+ mpg at Baylor)
68. Detrick Mostella (5.0 ppg in 15 mpg at Tennessee)
69. Nick Emery (BYU commit on Mormon mission)
70. Malcolm Hill (13.8 ppg in 28 mpg at Illinois)
71. Luke (10.8 ppg in 27 mpg at Marquette)
72. Stevie Clark (Transferred to Indian Hills after suspension at Oklahoma State)
73. Jordan Bell (5.8 ppg in 25+ mpg at Oregon)
74. Tim Quarterman (12.1 ppg in 25+ mpg at LSU)
Here are my conclusions:
**Very few 2013 top 100 players are truly high impact players when you drop down to the levels where Marquette's recruits are. There are some around JJJ. Terry Rozier is another
**By and large Marquette's recruits are performing about average when compared to those around them. Some are better, some are worse.
**The idea that Wojo inherited a bunch of players who were ready to lead Marquette to a bunch of wins is inaccurate because people are exaggerating the impact similarly rated players can have on a team as sophomores.
You're right. You need stars to win big. And there are very few underclass stars that come from where these guys were ranked. The only "star" that I see on the list is Terry Rozier.
By their junior and senior years, many of these guys will become very good players and be team leaders, but it rarely happens the first two years.
Quote from: jesmu84 on January 24, 2015, 12:27:34 PM
How are you assessing that talent? High school rankings? other posters have shown the college production of our current roster which leaves lots to be desired if production is indicative of talent.
You are aware it takes playing time to produce production, correct? Then again, I know you champion for the players who play max minutes yet produce next to nothing. LOL
There is usually is a correlation between minutes played and production - particularly when talking about a player with a semblance of talent.
So, the previous evidence offered on this current MU roster coming into the year was based on their prior year production and playing time. Duane had none, JJJ limited, Luke limited. So of course it looked bleak coming into the year as the guys didn't get playing time to produce. Hell the one guy that got 12 minutes per game and was All Big East freshman unfortunately didn't click with Wojo.
Now you can look at Sultan's list of similar ranked players to JJJ, Burton, Duane and Luke and see their production. You'll notice the vast majority of guys in JJJ's segment (other than Iverson who was kicked off Memphis) play 30+ minutes per game. Deonte would likely have been performing in line with other players in his recruit bunching, and Duane is playing within his recruit bunching to a similar standard as the other players. Luke is playing well for his recruit bunching.
The problem with this team is: missing Deonte's production, JJJ not getting the 30+ minutes as the other guys in his recruit bunching. Furthermore, if you had Mayo on this team, there's even more of a case for why the team should have been a 20+ win team based on what was inherited.
Quote from: The Sultan of Sunshine on January 24, 2015, 12:57:42 PM
So people get all excited about being top 100 talent. OK, let's see exactly who Wojo inherited and how they have performed relative to JJJ, Duane, Deonte and Luke. I am using the RSCI top 100 rankings and comparing them to players ranked three spots ahead and below.
27. Nigel Williams-Gross (14.7 ppg in 35+ mpg at Washington)
29. Zak Irvin (13.7 ppg in 34 mpg at Michigan)
30. Kuran Iverson (4.6 ppg in 11 mpg at Memphis)
30. JJJ (8.1 ppg in 21 mpg at Marquette)
32. Semi Ogeleye (Transferred from Duke to SMU after unspectacular year.)
33. Demitrius Jackson (13.6 ppg in 30+ mpg at Notre Dame)
34. Sindarious Thornwell (11.1 ppg in 30 mpg at South Carolina)
51. Troy Williams (13.5 ppg in 26 mpg at Indiana)
52. Matt Thomas (5.0 ppg in 17 mpg at Iowa State)
53. Terry Rozier (17.4 ppg in 30+ mpg - late bloomer entered rankings late)
54. Deonte
55. Devin Williams (10.8 ppg in 20+ mpg at West Virginia)
56. Kennedy Meeks (12.8 ppg in 20+ mpg at North Carolina)
57. Kendrik Nunn (10.6 ppg in 25+ mpg at Illinois)
58. Ishmail Wainwright (1.7 ppg in 12 mpg at Baylor)
59. Duane (11.1 ppg in 25+ mpg at Marquette)
60. John Egbunu (7.4 ppg in 24+ mpg last year at South Florida. Transferred to Florida)
61. Stanford Robinson (3.8 ppg in 10+ mpg at Indiana)
62. Allerick Freeman (5.5 ppg in 12+ mpg at Baylor)
68. Detrick Mostella (5.0 ppg in 15 mpg at Tennessee)
69. Nick Emery (BYU commit on Mormon mission)
70. Malcolm Hill (13.8 ppg in 28 mpg at Illinois)
71. Luke (10.8 ppg in 27 mpg at Marquette)
72. Stevie Clark (Transferred to Indian Hills after suspension at Oklahoma State)
73. Jordan Bell (5.8 ppg in 25+ mpg at Oregon)
74. Tim Quarterman (12.1 ppg in 25+ mpg at LSU)
Here are my conclusions:
**Very few 2013 top 100 players are truly high impact players when you drop down to the levels where Marquette's recruits are. There are some around JJJ. Terry Rozier is another
**By and large Marquette's recruits are performing about average when compared to those around them. Some are better, some are worse.
**The idea that Wojo inherited a bunch of players who were ready to lead Marquette to a bunch of wins is inaccurate because people are exaggerating the impact similarly rated players can have on a team as sophomores.
Are you qualified for this analysis? I mean did you play basketball competitively in high school?