Sandy vs JJJ

[jesmu84]

As for this season and last - Again, I believe the coach is not using the talent available to him properly.  That's the beef.  Furthermore, I refuse to accept that Wojo inherited such a challenging situation.  Perhaps only Hank Raymonds walked into a better situation at MU with regard to how much talent there was in the program at the time of him taking over. 

How are you assessing that talent? High school rankings? other posters have shown the college production of our current roster which leaves lots to be desired if production is indicative of talent.

[wadesworld]

I've noticed I come to the board a lot less now that Ners is back.

There is simply no basketball subject that can be discussed without Ners carpet bombing the thread to smithereens with his Derrick comments.

And of course, he is still riding the Dawson train as well.

I've said it before (and it was probably taken as a joke), but there really is effective medication for OCD.

Agreed.  Scoop was a lot easier to read the last month.  I've told people who complain about a thread that they can easily avoid it by not entering a thread with a title they can tell will be about something they don't want to read, but when Ners is around every single thread turns into the subject I simply don't care to read about.  He's wrong but he thinks his high school pedigree makes him more qualified then a coach who was a high school All American, a player at Duke, and his assistants who include former college All Americans and former professional point guards.  Not to mention the former coach and his assistants.  It's absurd, and no matter what the subject of the thread is, it always ends up the same damn way, just like this thread.

[forgetful]

Last year's problem was more personality than anything. As good as Buzz is, he only seems to know one way to motivate. The underdog, try hard, we aren't any good didn't resonate with Jamil, Gardner, Mayo, and the rest of those guys the way it did with Jae, DJO, and Jimmy. Buzz created a culture, then recruited kids that didn't fit that culture. Whether that was Larry's fault, or misevaluation of talent, or just bad luck, it clearly didn't work.

And then we lost all our experienced scorers, our coach, and our recruiting class. I had NIT hopes early, but did feel the NCAAs were possible when league play started. Honestly, despite our struggles, I still think there's a chance, but the staff was handed a total rebuild. Yes, there's some raw talent, but very little experience and honestly, most of these guys haven't won much.

I have confidence in this staff. They've shown definite improvement, been competitive in every game despite the short bench, and are thus far recruiting at a very high level. It will be interesting to see the tone in the next couple years, once this staff puts some trophies in the case.

I agree with this.  I'll also note that in trying to recruit the underdog (often then with low self-esteem).  He focused on getting great athletes.  He forgot the importance of being able to shoot (especially with good form) and to play under control.

That led to no natural PGs on the roster that could control tempo/possession except Derrick.  It led to no one on the team that could consistently knock down the 3 besides Jake.  

That carried over into this year, where we fortunately were able to pick up Carlino, to give us an outside threat and another ball handler.  

Buzz's biggest problem wasn't his coaching, or his recruiting.  It was in making sure he recruited a well balanced team with natural leaders.

[GGGG]

So people get all excited about being top 100 talent.  OK, let's see exactly who Wojo inherited and how they have performed relative to JJJ, Duane, Deonte and Luke.  I am using the RSCI top 100 rankings and comparing them to players ranked three spots ahead and below.

27. Nigel Williams-Gross (14.7 ppg in 35+ mpg at Washington)
29. Zak Irvin (13.7 ppg in 34 mpg at Michigan)
30. Kuran Iverson (4.6 ppg in 11 mpg at Memphis)
30. JJJ  (8.1 ppg in 21 mpg at Marquette)
32. Semi Ogeleye (Transferred from Duke to SMU after unspectacular year.)
33. Demitrius Jackson (13.6 ppg in 30+ mpg at Notre Dame)
34. Sindarious Thornwell (11.1 ppg in 30 mpg at South Carolina)

51. Troy Williams  (13.5 ppg in 26 mpg at Indiana)
52. Matt Thomas (5.0 ppg in 17 mpg at Iowa State)
53. Terry Rozier (17.4 ppg in 30+ mpg - late bloomer entered rankings late)
54. Deonte
55. Devin Williams (10.8 ppg in 20+ mpg at West Virginia)
56. Kennedy Meeks (12.8 ppg in 20+ mpg at North Carolina)
57. Kendrik Nunn (10.6 ppg in 25+ mpg at Illinois)
58. Ishmail Wainwright  (1.7 ppg in 12 mpg at Baylor)
59. Duane (11.1 ppg in 25+ mpg at Marquette) 
60. John Egbunu (7.4 ppg in 24+ mpg last year at South Florida. Transferred to Florida)
61. Stanford Robinson (3.8 ppg in 10+ mpg at Indiana)
62. Allerick Freeman (5.5 ppg in 12+ mpg at Baylor)

68. Detrick Mostella (5.0 ppg in 15 mpg at Tennessee)
69. Nick Emery (BYU commit on Mormon mission)
70. Malcolm Hill (13.8 ppg in 28 mpg at Illinois)
71. Luke  (10.8 ppg in 27 mpg at Marquette)
72. Stevie Clark (Transferred to Indian Hills after suspension at Oklahoma State)
73. Jordan Bell (5.8 ppg in 25+ mpg at Oregon)
74. Tim Quarterman (12.1 ppg in 25+ mpg at LSU)


Here are my conclusions:

**Very few 2013 top 100 players are truly high impact players when you drop down to the levels where Marquette's recruits are.  There are some around JJJ.  Terry Rozier is another

**By and large Marquette's recruits are performing about average when compared to those around them.  Some are better, some are worse.

**The idea that Wojo inherited a bunch of players who were ready to lead Marquette to a bunch of wins is inaccurate because people are exaggerating the impact similarly rated players can have on a team as sophomores.

[brandx]

So people get all excited about being top 100 talent.  OK, let's see exactly who Wojo inherited and how they have performed relative to JJJ, Duane, Deonte and Luke.  I am using the RSCI top 100 rankings and comparing them to players ranked three spots ahead and below.

27. Nigel Williams-Gross (14.7 ppg in 35+ mpg at Washington)
29. Zak Irvin (13.7 ppg in 34 mpg at Michigan)
30. Kuran Iverson (4.6 ppg in 11 mpg at Memphis)
30. JJJ  (8.1 ppg in 21 mpg at Marquette)
32. Semi Ogeleye (Transferred from Duke to SMU after unspectacular year.)
33. Demitrius Jackson (13.6 ppg in 30+ mpg at Notre Dame)
34. Sindarious Thornwell (11.1 ppg in 30 mpg at South Carolina)

51. Troy Williams  (13.5 ppg in 26 mpg at Indiana)
52. Matt Thomas (5.0 ppg in 17 mpg at Iowa State)
53. Terry Rozier (17.4 ppg in 30+ mpg - late bloomer entered rankings late)
54. Deonte
55. Devin Williams (10.8 ppg in 20+ mpg at West Virginia)
56. Kennedy Meeks (12.8 ppg in 20+ mpg at North Carolina)
57. Kendrik Nunn (10.6 ppg in 25+ mpg at Illinois)
58. Ishmail Wainwright  (1.7 ppg in 12 mpg at Baylor)
59. Duane (11.1 ppg in 25+ mpg at Marquette) 
60. John Egbunu (7.4 ppg in 24+ mpg last year at South Florida. Transferred to Florida)
61. Stanford Robinson (3.8 ppg in 10+ mpg at Indiana)
62. Allerick Freeman (5.5 ppg in 12+ mpg at Baylor)

68. Detrick Mostella (5.0 ppg in 15 mpg at Tennessee)
69. Nick Emery (BYU commit on Mormon mission)
70. Malcolm Hill (13.8 ppg in 28 mpg at Illinois)
71. Luke  (10.8 ppg in 27 mpg at Marquette)
72. Stevie Clark (Transferred to Indian Hills after suspension at Oklahoma State)
73. Jordan Bell (5.8 ppg in 25+ mpg at Oregon)
74. Tim Quarterman (12.1 ppg in 25+ mpg at LSU)


Here are my conclusions:

**Very few 2013 top 100 players are truly high impact players when you drop down to the levels where Marquette's recruits are.  There are some around JJJ.  Terry Rozier is another

**By and large Marquette's recruits are performing about average when compared to those around them.  Some are better, some are worse.

**The idea that Wojo inherited a bunch of players who were ready to lead Marquette to a bunch of wins is inaccurate because people are exaggerating the impact similarly rated players can have on a team as sophomores.

You're right. You need stars to win big. And there are very few underclass stars that come from where these guys were ranked. The only "star" that I see on the list is Terry Rozier.

By their junior and senior years, many of these guys will become very good players and be team leaders, but it rarely happens the first two years.

[NersEllenson]

How are you assessing that talent? High school rankings? other posters have shown the college production of our current roster which leaves lots to be desired if production is indicative of talent.

You are aware it takes playing time to produce production, correct?  Then again, I know you champion for the players who play max minutes yet produce next to nothing.  LOL

There is usually is a correlation between minutes played and production - particularly when talking about a player with a semblance of talent.

So, the previous evidence offered on this current MU roster coming into the year was based on their prior year production and playing time.  Duane had none, JJJ limited, Luke limited.  So of course it looked bleak coming into the year as the guys didn't get playing time to produce.  Hell the one guy that got 12 minutes per game and was All Big East freshman unfortunately didn't click with Wojo.

Now you can look at Sultan's list of similar ranked players to JJJ, Burton, Duane and Luke and see their production.  You'll notice the vast majority of guys in JJJ's segment (other than Iverson who was kicked off Memphis) play 30+ minutes per game.  Deonte would likely have been performing in line with other players in his recruit bunching, and Duane is playing within his recruit bunching to a similar standard as the other players.  Luke is playing well for his recruit bunching.

The problem with this team is: missing Deonte's production, JJJ not getting the 30+ minutes as the other guys in his recruit bunching. Furthermore, if you had Mayo on this team, there's even more of a case for why the team should have been a 20+ win team based on what was inherited.

[Newsdreams]

So people get all excited about being top 100 talent.  OK, let's see exactly who Wojo inherited and how they have performed relative to JJJ, Duane, Deonte and Luke.  I am using the RSCI top 100 rankings and comparing them to players ranked three spots ahead and below.

27. Nigel Williams-Gross (14.7 ppg in 35+ mpg at Washington)
29. Zak Irvin (13.7 ppg in 34 mpg at Michigan)
30. Kuran Iverson (4.6 ppg in 11 mpg at Memphis)
30. JJJ  (8.1 ppg in 21 mpg at Marquette)
32. Semi Ogeleye (Transferred from Duke to SMU after unspectacular year.)
33. Demitrius Jackson (13.6 ppg in 30+ mpg at Notre Dame)
34. Sindarious Thornwell (11.1 ppg in 30 mpg at South Carolina)

51. Troy Williams  (13.5 ppg in 26 mpg at Indiana)
52. Matt Thomas (5.0 ppg in 17 mpg at Iowa State)
53. Terry Rozier (17.4 ppg in 30+ mpg - late bloomer entered rankings late)
54. Deonte
55. Devin Williams (10.8 ppg in 20+ mpg at West Virginia)
56. Kennedy Meeks (12.8 ppg in 20+ mpg at North Carolina)
57. Kendrik Nunn (10.6 ppg in 25+ mpg at Illinois)
58. Ishmail Wainwright  (1.7 ppg in 12 mpg at Baylor)
59. Duane (11.1 ppg in 25+ mpg at Marquette) 
60. John Egbunu (7.4 ppg in 24+ mpg last year at South Florida. Transferred to Florida)
61. Stanford Robinson (3.8 ppg in 10+ mpg at Indiana)
62. Allerick Freeman (5.5 ppg in 12+ mpg at Baylor)

68. Detrick Mostella (5.0 ppg in 15 mpg at Tennessee)
69. Nick Emery (BYU commit on Mormon mission)
70. Malcolm Hill (13.8 ppg in 28 mpg at Illinois)
71. Luke  (10.8 ppg in 27 mpg at Marquette)
72. Stevie Clark (Transferred to Indian Hills after suspension at Oklahoma State)
73. Jordan Bell (5.8 ppg in 25+ mpg at Oregon)
74. Tim Quarterman (12.1 ppg in 25+ mpg at LSU)


Here are my conclusions:

**Very few 2013 top 100 players are truly high impact players when you drop down to the levels where Marquette's recruits are.  There are some around JJJ.  Terry Rozier is another

**By and large Marquette's recruits are performing about average when compared to those around them.  Some are better, some are worse.

**The idea that Wojo inherited a bunch of players who were ready to lead Marquette to a bunch of wins is inaccurate because people are exaggerating the impact similarly rated players can have on a team as sophomores.

Are you qualified for this analysis? I mean did you play basketball competitively in high school?