...that Deonte Burton has so much upside and could have really helped this team this year yet the coaching staff couldn't find a way to get him on the court early this season.
This game is a perfect example. Let's roll out the same offensively challenged starting line up only to see us in an early deficit. Gardner and Mayo have 15 combined and we whittle it down to 6 before bad call and a horrible Buzz Williams' technical see us down 11 at the break.
What does Buzz do next?
Put the same terrible offensive players on the court for their vaunted defense only to see Villanova rain down open 3's and the deficit swells to 19.
Finally, like an epiphany, Buzz puts in Deonte Burton and it's as plain as day that he is one of our five best players on the roster. He provides life but it's too little too late.
It's almost like for 25 minutes Buzz Williams insisted that his effort guys who can't make lay ups, miss more than half their free throws, and looked overmatched against elite competition could somehow will themselves to a victory. When the team is virtually dead he then puts guys in the game that can actually put the ball in the basket.
I like Buzz, but this year has not been a display of his coaching ability or savant like basketball IQ.
Yea Jamil is playing horribly. Burton plays hard.
Matty, you clearly have no idea who practices hard and who doesn't.
Quote from: mileskishnish72 on March 02, 2014, 03:19:41 PM
Matty, you clearly have no idea who practices hard and who doesn't.
Is that sarcasm?
Deonte has upside and can score. But, he still doesn't do what Buzz wants him to do on the defensive end, and, actually, on the offensive end (according to numerous interviews). After 5/6 years of Buzz, it's pretty obvious you don't play if you don't do what Buzz asks. That doesn't seem to be changing anytime soon. So either accept it or don't, but either way, it's not going to change.
Love the use of the word 'hard' and the experts that know the team after seeing them play for 35 minutes twice a week.
Clowns.
Marquette was struggling with consistency earlier in the year. People on this board were saying Buzz was playing too many people...so he shortens the rotation and wins five of six.
Can't blame Buzz for playing the guys who had been winning for him lately.
Before NOVA a bunch of players not named Burton did a great job winning games for us. Buzz sticking with those guys is not a bad coaching move. It didn't work out today.
I believe Burton deserves at least ten minutes a game....and should get a lot more if he is playing like he did today.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on March 02, 2014, 03:16:28 PM
...that Deonte Burton has so much upside and could have really helped this team this year yet the coaching staff couldn't find a way to get him on the court early this season.
This game is a perfect example. Let's roll out the same offensively challenged starting line up only to see us in an early deficit.
What does Buzz do next?
Yeah... but our 5 starters scored 17 points today.
You are absolutely correct. On an offensively challenged team, our two freshmen - whose calling cards were offense - see little or no time while we watch the same inept players on offense game after game. Jamil has had 7 games of 5 points or less for a team that struggles to score and yet we continue to heat the announcers talk about his skills.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 02, 2014, 03:22:42 PM
Before NOVA a bunch of players not named Burton did a great job winning games for us. Buzz sticking with those guys is not a bad coaching move. It didn't work out today.
I believe Burton deserves at least ten minutes a game....and should get a lot more if he is playing like he did today.
Give me a list of the good teams those players won. And without Davante - WE are DePaul this year.
Clowns is right. Yes Burton has tons of potential and I love him. But he's a defensive disaster on D. He's the Pedro Cerano on the team (or Rob Deer for a real life comp). Sure, we will get 10 PTs (or 25 HRs), but we will get 4 fouls, 2 TOs, and 16 PTs allowed (220 strikeouts).
Between all the coaches on here and the ability for posters who get off on finding more words to complain about DW, this board is full of clowns.
Burton is clearly the most offensively gifted player on the team. I could see 4-6 minute stretches where he get the ball on every possession... kinda like the way the Knicks used Patrick Ewing.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on March 02, 2014, 03:16:28 PM
...that Deonte Burton has so much upside and could have really helped this team this year yet the coaching staff couldn't find a way to get him on the court early this season.
This game is a perfect example. Let's roll out the same offensively challenged starting line up only to see us in an early deficit. Gardner and Mayo have 15 combined and we whittle it down to 6 before bad call and a horrible Buzz Williams' technical see us down 11 at the break.
What does Buzz do next?
Put the same terrible offensive players on the court for their vaunted defense only to see Villanova rain down open 3's and the deficit swells to 19.
Finally, like an epiphany, Buzz puts in Deonte Burton and it's as plain as day that he is one of our five best players on the roster. He provides life but it's too little too late.
It's almost like for 25 minutes Buzz Williams insisted that his effort guys who can't make lay ups, miss more than half their free throws, and looked overmatched against elite competition could somehow will themselves to a victory. When the team is virtually dead he then puts guys in the game that can actually put the ball in the basket.
I like Buzz, but this year has not been a display of his coaching ability or savant like basketball IQ.
Well said. Just don't understand what came over Buzz this year. So looked forward to this season and it has been painful to watch. Next year with Juan and Derrick hogging more undeserved minutes again and most likely losing some of our most talented players to transfer won't make next year any more fun to watch either.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on March 02, 2014, 03:22:42 PM
Before NOVA a bunch of players not named Burton did a great job winning games for us. Buzz sticking with those guys is not a bad coaching move. It didn't work out today.
I believe Burton deserves at least ten minutes a game....and should get a lot more if he is playing like he did today.
I'm going to leave out Derrick Wilson as he is very limited but he is better than any PG on our roster.
If our 'defensive minded' players can't score and are allowing Villanova players to get open shots at will, what value do they have in this game? Tuesday's game may be different. The last game may be different. But today it was apparent very early that on top of the expected poor offense we typically see from Anderson and Otule we also were not doing anything to stop Nova. A personnel change to a line up that could at least potentially match them shot for shot was necessary very early on to anyone watching this game objectively.
Quote from: The Sultan of Silly on March 02, 2014, 03:28:44 PM
Well said. Just don't understand what came over Buzz this year. So looked forward to this season and it has been painful to watch. Next year with Juan and Derrick hogging more undeserved minutes again and most likely losing some of our most talented players to transfer won't make next year any more fun to watch either.
You don't have any idea of who deserves what minutes. No one here does.
Quote from: brandx on March 02, 2014, 03:24:47 PM
Yeah... but our 5 starters scored 17 points today.
You are absolutely correct. On an offensively challenged team, our two freshmen - whose calling cards were offense - see little or no time while we watch the same inept players on offense game after game. Jamil has had 7 games of 5 points or less for a team that struggles to score and yet we continue to heat the announcers talk about his skills.
Before today, Marquette won five of six and had no trouble scoring points. Not seeing what you are complaining about here.
If we're all clowns then explain Juan Anderson. Probably had a 20-25 min run. 0-3, 1 Assist, a turnover, 3 boards and 0 points. I watched him get shook on the perimeter, out muscled in the paint. Generally ineffective with the ball. Why does he see so much time? Seriously.
Quote from: Niv Berkowitz on March 02, 2014, 03:26:31 PM
Clowns is right. Yes Burton has tons of potential and I love him. But he's a defensive disaster on D. He's the Pedro Cerano on the team (or Rob Deer for a real life comp). Sure, we will get 10 PTs (or 25 HRs), but we will get 4 fouls, 2 TOs, and 16 PTs allowed (220 strikeouts).
Between all the coaches on here and the ability for posters who get off on finding more words to complain about DW, this board is full of clowns.
How much worse could he be than losing by 17?
Sorry guys. Derrick Wilson is the only guy that handle the ball without unforced errors and has a chance to defend his man. Burton, Dawson and jj are disasters with turnovers and on defense
Quote from: Niv Berkowitz on March 02, 2014, 03:26:31 PM
Clowns is right. Yes Burton has tons of potential and I love him. But he's a defensive disaster on D. He's the Pedro Cerano on the team (or Rob Deer for a real life comp). Sure, we will get 10 PTs (or 25 HRs), but we will get 4 fouls, 2 TOs, and 16 PTs allowed (220 strikeouts).
Between all the coaches on here and the ability for posters who get off on finding more words to complain about DW, this board is full of clowns.
You couldn't be more wrong with your assessment. Besides Juan Anderson, he's a close second in the amount of positive defensive impact he has on a game of anyone on the roster. Several advanced metrics prove it out.
Quote from: muhoops1 on March 02, 2014, 03:30:57 PM
If we're all clowns then explain Juan Anderson. Probably had a 20-25 min run. 0-3, 1 Assist, a turnover, 3 boards and 0 points. I watched him get shook on the perimeter, out muscled in the paint. Generally ineffective with the ball. Why does he see so much time? Seriously.
Explain why Todd Mayo can't take his minutes.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on March 02, 2014, 03:33:07 PM
You couldn't be more wrong with your assessment. Besides Juan Anderson, he's a close second in the amount of positive defensive impact he has on a game of anyone on the roster. Several advanced metrics prove it out.
Defensive advanced metrics have so many holes in them it's not funny. They don't measure when he is out of position on rotation. They don't measure when he gets held up on a pick because he doesn't have his head on a swivel. He has A LOT of work to do on the defensive end.
Quote from: PTM on March 02, 2014, 03:33:18 PM
Explain why Todd Mayo can't take his minutes.
You sound like a Bitch right now.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on March 02, 2014, 03:29:50 PM
I'm going to leave out Derrick Wilson as he is very limited but he is better than any PG on our roster.
If our 'defensive minded' players can't score and are allowing Villanova players to get open shots at will, what value do they have in this game? Tuesday's game may be different. The last game may be different. But today it was apparent very early that on top of the expected poor offense we typically see from Anderson and Otule we also were not doing anything to stop Nova. A personnel change to a line up that could at least potentially match them shot for shot was necessary very early on to anyone watching this game objectively.
The defense has been way overrated this year. I have yet to see what they are trying to accomplish other than let teams shoot 3s whenever they want.
In 4 games against Nova and Creighton, they gave up 115 three-point shots - yes
115 in 4 games. To two teams who LOVE to shoot the three and see it as their road to victory. One Hundred and Fifteen in four games.
That is pathetic, brutal defense. How can you go into a game with a game plan that says "we'll let them do what they do best"? And then you guys are worried about Burton's defense?
Quote from: muhoops1 on March 02, 2014, 03:30:57 PM
If we're all clowns then explain Juan Anderson. Probably had a 20-25 min run. 0-3, 1 Assist, a turnover, 3 boards and 0 points. I watched him get shook on the perimeter, out muscled in the paint. Generally ineffective with the ball. Why does he see so much time? Seriously.
He got 17 minutes today. Before that, he was averaging less than 10 minutes a game.
Also, PT had an article that said by value added, Juan is one of the top defenders in the country. I'm sure there's some statistical manipulation there, but it's something.
Anyone who tries to dispute the fact Burton should be on the floor 20+ minutes taking away minutes from Juan/Jamil is living in some alternate universe.
Burton for all his defensive "warts" people like to pick at here - the same guys who won't pick at the offensive warts of our PG - is 3rd on the team in steals and tied for 2nd in blocks....and yes...those take away possessions/basket opportunities for the opposition...a tangible stat.
And he's done it in 331 minutes compared to the 842 our elite defender Derrick has played....but Derrick does have 6 more steals on the year, so there is that... ::)
Quote from: The Sultan of Slurpery on March 02, 2014, 03:35:19 PM
Defensive advanced metrics have so many holes in them it's not funny. They don't measure when he is out of position on rotation. They don't measure when he gets held up on a pick because he doesn't have his head on a swivel. He has A LOT of work to do on the defensive end.
Sultan,
How many picks did Juan Anderson and Jamil Wilson successfully get around today? I saw lots of open shooters.
How many times were all of our defenders out of position on defensive rotations today? Again, I saw a lot of open shots for Nova.
How many of those guys with 'their head on a swivel' got torched defensively today?
Our starting five of D Wilson, Thomas, Anderson, J Wilson and Otule combined for 17 points.
Maybe defensive metrics are flawed, but when you consider that how poorly our players who have worse advanced defensive ratings than Burton played today it's harder to make your case than it is to poke holes in mine.
Ners, why do you have to bring up Derrick Wilson in a thread about Deonte Burton? Why do you continuously bring up the point guard issue in threads where it doesn't belong?
I love the offense that Burton brings, but it's obvious that he has work to do on the defensive end. Honestly if he's going to take time away from anyone, it should be Steve Taylor who continues to look overwhelmed on both sides of the floor.
Deleted, respectfully.
Quote from: Nevada233 on March 02, 2014, 03:40:48 PM
You sound like a Bitch right now.
Take a break Nevada. See you in two weeks if you wish to come back.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on March 02, 2014, 03:44:37 PM
Sultan,
How many picks did Juan Anderson and Jamil Wilson successfully get around today? I saw lots of open shooters.
How many times were all of our defenders out of position on defensive rotations today? Again, I saw a lot of open shots for Nova.
How many of those guys with 'their head on a swivel' got torched defensively today?
Our starting five of D Wilson, Thomas, Anderson, J Wilson and Otule combined for 17 points.
Maybe defensive metrics are flawed, but when you consider that how poorly our players who have worse advanced defensive ratings than Burton played today it's harder to make your case than it is to poke holes in mine.
Why are you moving the goalposts?
I was countering your argument that he was a good defensive player based on "advanced metrics." I never said that Jamil and Juan played well today - they weren't part of the conversation.
Quote from: SoCalwarrior on March 02, 2014, 03:53:27 PM
Take a break Nevada. See you in two weeks if you wish to come back.
(http://media.247sports.com/Uploads/Assets/280/870/870280.gif)
all in good fun, i promise. just wanted an excuse to use this gif.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on March 02, 2014, 03:44:37 PM
Sultan,
How many picks did Juan Anderson and Jamil Wilson successfully get around today? I saw lots of open shooters.
How many times were all of our defenders out of position on defensive rotations today? Again, I saw a lot of open shots for Nova.
How many of those guys with 'their head on a swivel' got torched defensively today?
Our starting five of D Wilson, Thomas, Anderson, J Wilson and Otule combined for 17 points.
Maybe defensive metrics are flawed, but when you consider that how poorly our players who have worse advanced defensive ratings than Burton played today it's harder to make your case than it is to poke holes in mine.
To be fair, Villanova passes the ball extremely well. They are a finely tuned machine when it comes to getting players open.
If anything, a different game plan from Buzz should be discussed.
Quote from: Niv Berkowitz on March 02, 2014, 03:26:31 PM
Clowns is right. Yes Burton has tons of potential and I love him. But he's a defensive disaster on D. He's the Pedro Cerano on the team (or Rob Deer for a real life comp). Sure, we will get 10 PTs (or 25 HRs), but we will get 4 fouls, 2 TOs, and 16 PTs allowed (220 strikeouts).
Between all the coaches on here and the ability for posters who get off on finding more words to complain about DW, this board is full of clowns.
Yep. He undoes a lot of the good he does with bad D and poor decisions.
Quote from: PTM on March 02, 2014, 03:56:25 PM
To be fair, Villanova passes the ball extremely well. They are a finely tuned machine when it comes to getting players open.
If anything, a different game plan from Buzz should be discussed.
How about "let's not give up open 3's all game?"
Quote from: The Sultan of Slurpery on March 02, 2014, 03:48:26 PM
Ners, why do you have to bring up Derrick Wilson in a thread about Deonte Burton? Why do you continuously bring up the point guard issue in threads where it doesn't belong?
I love the offense that Burton brings, but it's obvious that he has work to do on the defensive end. Honestly if he's going to take time away from anyone, it should be Steve Taylor who continues to look overwhelmed on both sides of the floor.
It simply is a tired, old, argument pointing to things like he doesn't get his head around on a swivel on pick and roll defense fast enough, or get through screens well enough, etc - he produces defensively in the way of steals and blocks..key defensive metrics...
As for Derrick being mentioned here - because you guys are talking about Burton's defensive limitations as to why he shouldn't get more time than say Juan or Jamil....and I grab stats on steals and blocks....and illustrate that the guy Buzz says is the best defender he's ever had has just 6 more steals for the year....yet in 500 more minutes....and yes...I know there is more to defense than getting steals....but if you want to trumpet Burton doesn't deserve more time because there are 2 ends of the floor...then please...by all means bark, and bark loudly about how the same applies for Derrick and his offensive limitations...
Quote from: mattyv1908 on March 02, 2014, 03:16:28 PM
...that Deonte Burton has so much upside and could have really helped this team this year yet the coaching staff couldn't find a way to get him on the court early this season.
This game is a perfect example. Let's roll out the same offensively challenged starting line up only to see us in an early deficit. Gardner and Mayo have 15 combined and we whittle it down to 6 before bad call and a horrible Buzz Williams' technical see us down 11 at the break.
What does Buzz do next?
Put the same terrible offensive players on the court for their vaunted defense only to see Villanova rain down open 3's and the deficit swells to 19.
Finally, like an epiphany, Buzz puts in Deonte Burton and it's as plain as day that he is one of our five best players on the roster. He provides life but it's too little too late.
It's almost like for 25 minutes Buzz Williams insisted that his effort guys who can't make lay ups, miss more than half their free throws, and looked overmatched against elite competition could somehow will themselves to a victory. When the team is virtually dead he then puts guys in the game that can actually put the ball in the basket.
I like Buzz, but this year has not been a display of his coaching ability or savant like basketball IQ.
Could not agree more with all of this. Deonte gets brought in late in the second half when we're already in holes due to our incredibly poor offensive starting lineup and he's consistently delivered results (SDSU, Xavier, today). But we always come up short (today it was pretty much over regardless of how well Deonte played). Why the hell does Buzz not just start these guys rather than putting us in holes game after game after game? It's pretty much always a given that by the time Davante and Todd come in that we're fighting back rather than extending leads.
Quote from: Ners on March 02, 2014, 03:59:57 PM
It simply is a tired, old, argument pointing to things like he doesn't get his head around on a swivel on pick and roll defense fast enough, or get through screens well enough, etc - he produces defensively in the way of steals and blocks..key defensive metrics...
I would say it's obvious though that Buzz doesn't care about those stats if he isn't rotating correctly or doing other things Buzz wants. So yes, he might have stats on his side, but clearly those stats don't matter much in Buzz's opinion.
Kinda like how Buzz obviously doesn't care much about the offensive stats you use to champion other PGs.
He just has different opinions on what's important. So, regardless of what evidence you, or I, or anyone has.. if the players aren't doing what Buzz wants, they aren't playing.
Quote from: The Sultan of Slurpery on March 02, 2014, 03:48:26 PM
Ners, why do you have to bring up Derrick Wilson in a thread about Deonte Burton? Why do you continuously bring up the point guard issue in threads where it doesn't belong?
I'm not sure of the exact pronunciation, but I think its called an unhealthy obsession.
Quote from: Ners on March 02, 2014, 03:43:45 PM
Anyone who tries to dispute the fact Burton should be on the floor 20+ minutes taking away minutes from Juan/Jamil is living in some alternate universe.
Burton for all his defensive "warts" people like to pick at here - the same guys who won't pick at the offensive warts of our PG - is 3rd on the team in steals and tied for 2nd in blocks....and yes...those take away possessions/basket opportunities for the opposition...a tangible stat.
And he's done it in 331 minutes compared to the 842 our elite defender Derrick has played....but Derrick does have 6 more steals on the year, so there is that... ::)
Well at least you're on Jamil now too.
Quote from: Ners on March 02, 2014, 03:59:57 PM
It simply is a tired, old, argument pointing to things like he doesn't get his head around on a swivel on pick and roll defense fast enough, or get through screens well enough, etc - he produces defensively in the way of steals and blocks..key defensive metrics...
Sorry that talking about his obvious lack of defensive fundamentals bothers you.
There are games (like today) where his offense more than overcomes his defensive liabilities. However we all know there have been others where they haven't. And considering how well MU had been playing (and scoring), it's obvious why Buzz hasn't been playing him and others. I think he will only get better. He has an ENORMOUS upside and seemingly a great attitude. He will learn. But pretending his liabilities don't exist won't make them go away.
I mean, you were one of the guys bitching about Buzz playing too many players. So he shortened the line up...won some games...and they have a bad loss and you are going to bitch some more??? Unreal.
Quote from: jesmu84 on March 02, 2014, 04:03:57 PM
I would say it's obvious though that Buzz doesn't care about those stats if he isn't rotating correctly or doing other things Buzz wants. So yes, he might have stats on his side, but clearly those stats don't matter much in Buzz's opinion.
While the stats may not matter as much as Buzz's opinion, he could easily counter this statement that neither do wins. I'm not arguing with your logic just pointing out that that is the next logical progression to what you just posted.
While I would like to see Burton play more the simple fact is that Juan and Chris cannot play. Literally not at all in terms of Juan and Chris very limited and don't start. If the tip is deemed to importan. Fine have him tip and first whistle...out.
It makes Derrick who is already inept offensively even more of a problem because he's surrouned by other guys who suck just as bad on offense.
Two of your starters are complete brick layers at the line(and they get there a lot). Another is just all around bad at basketball(sorry to those I offend but Juan is BAD), another who cannot get his own shot and then finally the only 1 with true all around talent is scared little no show every time we need him.
The "defense" thing is a myth. This lineup gives up just as many open shots there are so many games that support this lineup giving up huge runs. The difference is...they can't score with the other team so it's a lopsided run.
And honestly, how many games have we lost due to defense? Not many. It is because we cannot score.
I tried to be positive before this game. I still love this team and I still think Buzz is a heck of a coach. But he is doing horrible this year. And all it's doing is halting the development for next year. Continuing to play bad players with no upside(and heck won't even be here next year in the case of Chris) is just plain and simple dumb.
I mean today alone we start get them in early foul trouble, Davante gets an early bucket. Things are going pretty good...Buzz thinks its time to put Juan and Chris back in..TOGETHER!!! Hilliard goes god mode. Juan starts handing out and 1's like it was what we recruited him for.
:'( ?-( :-[ :-\
Quote from: Niv Berkowitz on March 02, 2014, 03:26:31 PM
But he's a defensive disaster on D. He's the Pedro Cerano on the team (or Rob Deer for a real life comp). Sure, we will get 10 PTs (or 25 HRs), but we will get 4 fouls, 2 TOs, and 16 PTs allowed (220 strikeouts).
Between all the coaches on here and the ability for posters who get off on finding more words to complain about DW, this board is full of clowns.
As opposed to a defensive disaster on Offense? You are correct. To his board is full of clowns.
Davante Gardner averaged 19 minutes per game as a sophomore, and he was a much worse defender at that point than Burton ever has been this year. And that team was an elite 8 team. Certainly you can find 15 MPGs for a player with his offensive-upside, on a team that struggles so mightily on the offensive end.
Good coaches find ways to get their assets on the court. Bo Ryan played Sam Dekker 22 mpg last year, even though he was consistently the worst defender on the floor. But he was able to provide something no one else on the Badgers could.
Burton makes getting buckets look easy, on a team that makes it look so difficult at times. That's an asset.
Hold on. You really think Marquette is better than 3rd in BE if Buzz did a better job? Insane! Creighton and nova are amazing college teams and last years team would have issues with these 2 teams
Prior to today, he played less than double digit minutes in four of the previous five games.
Our record in those games? 4-0.
Again, how exactly has Buzz been screwing up here?
Quote from: The Sultan of Slurpery on March 02, 2014, 04:07:55 PM
Sorry that talking about his obvious lack of defensive fundamentals bothers you.
There are games (like today) where his offense more than overcomes his defensive liabilities. However we all know there have been others where they haven't. And considering how well MU had been playing (and scoring), it's obvious why Buzz hasn't been playing him and others. I think he will only get better. He has an ENORMOUS upside and seemingly a great attitude. He will learn. But pretending his liabilities don't exist won't make them go away.
I mean, you were one of the guys bitching about Buzz playing too many players. So he shortened the line up...won some games...and they have a bad loss and you are going to bitch some more??? Unreal.
End of the day - Burton is one of the 5 best players on this team right now...period...and he should be in the shortened rotation, and I've said as much dating back to non-con. I mean my God....Juan and Derrick gave us 2 points in a combined 49 minutes....I mean, you better be freaking unbelievable as a defender to offset just how much your team is playing uphill when you combine for 2 points in 49 minutes....
This whole defensive approach hasn't worked - and as for our wins in 5 of last 6 - you can say Xavier and GTwon were good wins (At Home), but let's not get carried away with beating DePaul, Seton Hall and Butler as proof everything was working so well. Plus they gave Dawson 19 minutes in GTown game which was a big adjustment...rotation should include:
Derrick, Dawson, Mayo, Jake, Jamil, Gardner, Burton - with spot minutes for Otule, and Steve and Juan being 10th and 11th men at this point..
Quote from: The Sultan of Slurpery on March 02, 2014, 04:19:37 PM
Prior to today, he played less than double digit minutes in four of the previous five games.
Our record in those games? 4-0.
Again, how exactly has Buzz been screwing up here?
DePaul, Butler, Seton Hall....seriously?
O yeah we gave up 94 to DePaul. GO DEFENSE!!!
Quote from: The Sultan of Slurpery on March 02, 2014, 03:54:24 PM
Why are you moving the goalposts?
I was countering your argument that he was a good defensive player based on "advanced metrics." I never said that Jamil and Juan played well today - they weren't part of the conversation.
I'm not trying to move the goal posts, I'm just trying to put 'poor defensive performance' into context.
10.3% of opponents possessions end in either a Deonte Burton steal or blocked shot, 5.3% steal rate and 5.0% block rate respectively.
Our next best player is at 6.9% with Otule but it is heavily skewed with a 0.5% steal rate and a 6.4% block rate. Our average for the team is around 3.5%.
Now I'll agree with you that no set of stats tells the entire story, but I do think defensive metrics are very indicative of a player's impact on games. Over one in ten defensive possessions that Burton is on the floor ends in a steal or a blocked shot. How can you honestly think that's less important than having his head on a swivel when our proverbial good defenders have little to no positive impact on a game defensively?
If our starting defense is irreplaceable, how come so many opponents have career days against us? We need offense - 20% on lay ups doesn't make it. We need scores on the court.
MU had won 5-6. Villanova was very good today. MU's 'leaders' were not. Deonte scored points in bunches today. More minutes? simple equation....do what Buzz wants in practice.
Quote from: mattyv1908 on March 02, 2014, 04:23:00 PM
Now I'll agree with you that no set of stats tells the entire story, but I do think defensive metrics are very indicative of a player's impact on games. Over one in ten defensive possessions that Burton is on the floor ends in a steal or a blocked shot. How can you honestly think that's less important than having his head on a swivel when our proverbial good defenders have little to no positive impact on a game defensively?
Because I have always valued positional defending more than I have steals. Now I would agree with you that some of our positional defending has been weak this year. But putting a worse defender in the game isn't a great way of making that better.
But I do like what Burton brings offensively.
Quote from: tower912 on March 02, 2014, 04:24:03 PM
MU had won 5-6. Villanova was very good today. MU's 'leaders' were not. Deonte scored points in bunches today. More minutes? simple equation....do what Buzz wants in practice.
I'll give you a reference from another famed Wisconsin sports team to make you realize how silly this statement is regarding practice.
Charles Woodson was a terrible practice player to the point it upset McCarthy, yet he eventually came to understand that despite him taking numerous days off during the practice week and giving minimal effort when he was on the practice field that Woodson would bring his best game come Sunday.
Do the Green Bay Packers win their latest Super Bowl if McCarthy would've limited Woodson's playing time because of how he practiced?
Marquette has beaten Seton Hall, Butler, DePaul, Georgetown and Xavier in that 5-6 you mentioned. Only Xavier is a quality opponent. I wouldn't be so quick to champion those wins.
Go full Iverson, if you must. Buzz is Buzz. His MO hasn't changed.
Quote from: The Sultan of Slurpery on March 02, 2014, 04:30:43 PM
Because I have always valued positional defending more than I have steals. Now I would agree with you that some of our positional defending has been weak this year. But putting a worse defender in the game isn't a great way of making that better.
But I do like what Burton brings offensively.
All that's good and valid Sultan, but this team isn't a good positional defensive team. So to replace a poor positional defender who cannot score with (in your opinion) a worse positional defender (although the most disruptive defender on the team as well) who can fill the basket offensively should be a net positive.
Quote from: tower912 on March 02, 2014, 04:33:08 PM
Go full Iverson, if you must. Buzz is Buzz. His MO hasn't changed.
+1. I'm not sure what's being accomplished with some of these discussions. Or even what's trying to be accomplished.
Quote from: tower912 on March 02, 2014, 04:33:08 PM
Go full Iverson, if you must. Buzz is Buzz. His MO hasn't changed.
To the detriment of this year's team.
Guys like Otule, Gardner and J Wilson with all they've given to this program deserve having the best shot at winning in their final season. If that means getting a legitimate scorer more time on the floor despite how he practices (which no one on the board knows) so be it.
Quote from: tower912 on March 02, 2014, 04:24:03 PM
MU had won 5-6. Villanova was very good today. MU's 'leaders' were not. Deonte scored points in bunches today. More minutes? simple equation....do what Buzz wants in practice.
I was at the game and 'Nova was just OK. 'Nova moves the ball quickly, takes reasonable shots and plays reasonably good defense. I do not see them going far this year, however, given their weaknesses. Remember even with no offense we were in this game until we were Buzzed Cut by an unnamed coach who thought a "T" meant Team effort rather than technical. Al used technicals to motivate. In this team it demoralized them.
I hate to say how many times we stood around and were at a loss on offense. Take a look at MickyD if you want to learn how to move. Some players tried to make things happen and it is obvious who was Really playing for Marquette. It was also clear some players do not know the basics of setting up an offense and are confused. Others either have a hard time staying engaged or do not get enough sleep before the game. Others play very hard but have been beaten down to the point where they no longer are able to take a shot with confidence.
Do I blame this band of demoralized shadows of themselves? No. But Jay Wright taught someone how to coach today. Marquette reflected what they have been taught.
:o
The technical was a terrible decision by Buzz, but I don't think it demoralized the team and they likely would have lost anyway.
Just last year people were saying that Jay Wright was underperforming as a coach. Marquette's team is limited and I don't think has gelled.
I do not think Juan looks comfortable out there and I think that is because Buzz did not play him the whole season. I have to believe Juan would look much better now, if Buzz had played him 20+ minutes a game the whole season. However, I could also say that about Burton. Unfortunately Jamil who has received plently fo playing time is in a slump.
Quote from: The Sultan of Slurpery on March 02, 2014, 05:11:58 PM
The technical was a terrible decision by Buzz, but I don't think it demoralized the team and they likely would have lost anyway.
Just last year people were saying that Jay Wright was underperforming as a coach. Marquette's team is limited and I don't think has gelled.
Agree with all except I believe the team continues to be demoralized and one has to ask why they are and why it has not gelled. Who's job is it to motivate and gell a team?
Appreciate your poisition but do the sleep walkers really lack talent and those lacking confidence are they getting the help they need?
I would like to blame this on a weak team or better yet the overwhelming talent on Jay Wright's team but regrettably I did not see it today. I am not saying the coaching has been bad overall what I am saying today highlighted some weaknesses that could have been addressed earlier in the year. Feel free to have your opinion. We all come from different perspectives. I do not suggest I have all the answers.
Quote from: Class71 on March 02, 2014, 05:51:09 PM
Agree with all except I believe the team continues to be demoralized and one has to ask why they are and why it has not gelled. Who's job is it to motivate and gell a team?
Appreciate your poisition but do the sleep walkers really lack talent and those lacking confidence are they getting the help they need?
I would like to blame this on a weak team or better yet the overwhelming talent on Jay Wright's team but regrettably I did not see it today. I am not saying the coaching has been bad overall what I am saying today highlighted some weaknesses that could have been addressed earlier in the year. Feel free to have your opinion. We all come from different perspectives. I do not suggest I have all the answers.
nuance
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 02, 2014, 06:02:12 PM
nuance
Small changes are the differences between winners and losers. Confidence, motivation and focus can be improved having a significant impact on any team. Teaching the basics in offense takes longer but somehow we missed that step this year. Are we saying this team did not have the ability to learn? Besides pointing out the flaws in this team can we highlight what could have been done differently so as not to repeat next year. Are we saying we just lack the talent or we could have changed the outcome through coaching? That is the debate. Coaches can change tactics, talent is what it is.
Quote from: Class71 on March 02, 2014, 05:51:09 PM
Agree with all except I believe the team continues to be demoralized and one has to ask why they are and why it has not gelled. Who's job is it to motivate and gell a team?
Appreciate your poisition but do the sleep walkers really lack talent and those lacking confidence are they getting the help they need?
I would like to blame this on a weak team or better yet the overwhelming talent on Jay Wright's team but regrettably I did not see it today. I am not saying the coaching has been bad overall what I am saying today highlighted some weaknesses that could have been addressed earlier in the year. Feel free to have your opinion. We all come from different perspectives. I do not suggest I have all the answers.
Gee, I have heard several people here proselytize on how Buzz was a good motivator defending some of his public disses and outrageous statements in public about players etc, as his way of motivating. How are those motivational techniques working out this year?
Quote from: willie warrior on March 02, 2014, 06:34:19 PM
Gee, I have heard several people here proselytize on how Buzz was a good motivator defending some of his public disses and outrageous statements in public about players etc, as his way of motivating. How are those motivational techniques working out this year?
So what's the bottom line Willie do you want to run off a guy with 5 straight NCAA appearances, and all the other acomplishments. Hope you have someone damn good lined up.
Quote from: hairyworthen on March 02, 2014, 06:41:24 PM
So what's the bottom line Willie do you want to run off a guy with 5 straight NCAA appearances, and all the other acomplishments. Hope you have someone damn good lined up.
No, he just likes to complain.