It's so apparently obvious...

[NersEllenson]

Anyone who tries to dispute the fact Burton should be on the floor 20+ minutes taking away minutes from Juan/Jamil is living in some alternate universe.

Burton for all his defensive "warts" people like to pick at here - the same guys who won't pick at the offensive warts of our PG - is 3rd on the team in steals and tied for 2nd in blocks....and yes...those take away possessions/basket opportunities for the opposition...a tangible stat.

And he's done it in 331 minutes compared to the 842 our elite defender Derrick has played....but Derrick does have 6 more steals on the year, so there is that...

[mattyv1908]

Defensive advanced metrics have so many holes in them it's not funny.  They don't measure when he is out of position on rotation.  They don't measure when he gets held up on a pick because he doesn't have his head on a swivel.  He has A LOT of work to do on the defensive end.

Sultan,

How many picks did Juan Anderson and Jamil Wilson successfully get around today?  I saw lots of open shooters.
How many times were all of our defenders out of position on defensive rotations today?  Again, I saw a lot of open shots for Nova.
How many of those guys with 'their head on a swivel' got torched defensively today?

Our starting five of D Wilson, Thomas, Anderson, J Wilson and Otule combined for 17 points.

Maybe defensive metrics are flawed, but when you consider that how poorly our players who have worse advanced defensive ratings than Burton played today it's harder to make your case than it is to poke holes in mine.

[GGGG]

Ners, why do you have to bring up Derrick Wilson in a thread about Deonte Burton?  Why do you continuously bring up the point guard issue in threads where it doesn't belong?

I love the offense that Burton brings, but it's obvious that he has work to do on the defensive end.  Honestly if he's going to take time away from anyone, it should be Steve Taylor who continues to look overwhelmed on both sides of the floor.

[🏀]

Deleted, respectfully.

[SoCalwarrior]

You sound like a Bitch right now.

Take a break Nevada. See you in two weeks if you wish to come back.

[GGGG]

Sultan,

How many picks did Juan Anderson and Jamil Wilson successfully get around today?  I saw lots of open shooters.
How many times were all of our defenders out of position on defensive rotations today?  Again, I saw a lot of open shots for Nova.
How many of those guys with 'their head on a swivel' got torched defensively today?

Our starting five of D Wilson, Thomas, Anderson, J Wilson and Otule combined for 17 points.

Maybe defensive metrics are flawed, but when you consider that how poorly our players who have worse advanced defensive ratings than Burton played today it's harder to make your case than it is to poke holes in mine.

Why are you moving the goalposts?  

I was countering your argument that he was a good defensive player based on "advanced metrics."  I never said that Jamil and Juan played well today - they weren't part of the conversation.

[jesmu84]

Take a break Nevada. See you in two weeks if you wish to come back.

all in good fun, i promise. just wanted an excuse to use this gif.

[🏀]

Sultan,

How many picks did Juan Anderson and Jamil Wilson successfully get around today?  I saw lots of open shooters.
How many times were all of our defenders out of position on defensive rotations today?  Again, I saw a lot of open shots for Nova.
How many of those guys with 'their head on a swivel' got torched defensively today?

Our starting five of D Wilson, Thomas, Anderson, J Wilson and Otule combined for 17 points.

Maybe defensive metrics are flawed, but when you consider that how poorly our players who have worse advanced defensive ratings than Burton played today it's harder to make your case than it is to poke holes in mine.

To be fair, Villanova passes the ball extremely well. They are a finely tuned machine when it comes to getting players open.

If anything, a different game plan from Buzz should be discussed.

[NavinRJohnson]

Clowns is right. Yes Burton has tons of potential and I love him. But he's a defensive disaster on D. He's the Pedro Cerano on the team (or Rob Deer for a real life comp). Sure, we will get 10 PTs (or 25 HRs), but we will get 4 fouls, 2 TOs, and 16 PTs allowed (220 strikeouts).

Between all the coaches on here and the ability for posters who get off on finding more words to complain about DW, this board is full of clowns.

Yep. He undoes a lot of the good he does with bad D and poor decisions.

[brandx]

To be fair, Villanova passes the ball extremely well. They are a finely tuned machine when it comes to getting players open.

If anything, a different game plan from Buzz should be discussed.

How about "let's not give up open 3's all game?"

[NersEllenson]

Ners, why do you have to bring up Derrick Wilson in a thread about Deonte Burton?  Why do you continuously bring up the point guard issue in threads where it doesn't belong?

I love the offense that Burton brings, but it's obvious that he has work to do on the defensive end.  Honestly if he's going to take time away from anyone, it should be Steve Taylor who continues to look overwhelmed on both sides of the floor.

It simply is a tired, old, argument pointing to things like he doesn't get his head around on a swivel on pick and roll defense fast enough, or get through screens well enough, etc - he produces defensively in the way of steals and blocks..key defensive metrics...

As for Derrick being mentioned here - because you guys are talking about Burton's defensive limitations as to why he shouldn't get more time than say Juan or Jamil....and I grab stats on steals and blocks....and illustrate that the guy Buzz says is the best defender he's ever had has just 6 more steals for the year....yet in 500 more minutes....and yes...I know there is more to defense than getting steals....but if you want to trumpet Burton doesn't deserve more time because there are 2 ends of the floor...then please...by all means bark, and bark loudly about how the same applies for Derrick and his offensive limitations...

[onepost]

...that Deonte Burton has so much upside and could have really helped this team this year yet the coaching staff couldn't find a way to get him on the court early this season.

This game is a perfect example.  Let's roll out the same offensively challenged starting line up only to see us in an early deficit.  Gardner and Mayo have 15 combined and we whittle it down to 6 before bad call and a horrible Buzz Williams' technical see us down 11 at the break.

What does Buzz do next?

Put the same terrible offensive players on the court for their vaunted defense only to see Villanova rain down open 3's and the deficit swells to 19.

Finally, like an epiphany, Buzz puts in Deonte Burton and it's as plain as day that he is one of our five best players on the roster.  He provides life but it's too little too late.

It's almost like for 25 minutes Buzz Williams insisted that his effort guys who can't make lay ups, miss more than half their free throws, and looked overmatched against elite competition could somehow will themselves to a victory.  When the team is virtually dead he then puts guys in the game that can actually put the ball in the basket.

I like Buzz, but this year has not been a display of his coaching ability or savant like basketball IQ.

Could not agree more with all of this. Deonte gets brought in late in the second half when we're already in holes due to our incredibly poor offensive starting lineup and he's consistently delivered results (SDSU, Xavier, today). But we always come up short (today it was pretty much over regardless of how well Deonte played). Why the hell does Buzz not just start these guys rather than putting us in holes game after game after game? It's pretty much always a given that by the time Davante and Todd come in that we're fighting back rather than extending leads.

[jesmu84]

It simply is a tired, old, argument pointing to things like he doesn't get his head around on a swivel on pick and roll defense fast enough, or get through screens well enough, etc - he produces defensively in the way of steals and blocks..key defensive metrics...

I would say it's obvious though that Buzz doesn't care about those stats if he isn't rotating correctly or doing other things Buzz wants. So yes, he might have stats on his side, but clearly those stats don't matter much in Buzz's opinion.

Kinda like how Buzz obviously doesn't care much about the offensive stats you use to champion other PGs.

He just has different opinions on what's important. So, regardless of what evidence you, or I, or anyone has.. if the players aren't doing what Buzz wants, they aren't playing.

[NavinRJohnson]

Ners, why do you have to bring up Derrick Wilson in a thread about Deonte Burton?  Why do you continuously bring up the point guard issue in threads where it doesn't belong?

I'm not sure of the exact pronunciation, but I think its called an unhealthy obsession.

[connie]

Anyone who tries to dispute the fact Burton should be on the floor 20+ minutes taking away minutes from Juan/Jamil is living in some alternate universe.

Burton for all his defensive "warts" people like to pick at here - the same guys who won't pick at the offensive warts of our PG - is 3rd on the team in steals and tied for 2nd in blocks....and yes...those take away possessions/basket opportunities for the opposition...a tangible stat.

And he's done it in 331 minutes compared to the 842 our elite defender Derrick has played....but Derrick does have 6 more steals on the year, so there is that...

Well at least you're on Jamil now too.

[GGGG]

It simply is a tired, old, argument pointing to things like he doesn't get his head around on a swivel on pick and roll defense fast enough, or get through screens well enough, etc - he produces defensively in the way of steals and blocks..key defensive metrics...

Sorry that talking about his obvious lack of defensive fundamentals bothers you.

There are games (like today) where his offense more than overcomes his defensive liabilities.  However we all know there have been others where they haven't.  And considering how well MU had been playing (and scoring), it's obvious why Buzz hasn't been playing him and others.  I think he will only get better.  He has an ENORMOUS upside and seemingly a great attitude.  He will learn.  But pretending his liabilities don't exist won't make them go away.

I mean, you were one of the guys bitching about Buzz playing too many players.  So he shortened the line up...won some games...and they have a bad loss and you are going to bitch some more???  Unreal.

[mattyv1908]

I would say it's obvious though that Buzz doesn't care about those stats if he isn't rotating correctly or doing other things Buzz wants. So yes, he might have stats on his side, but clearly those stats don't matter much in Buzz's opinion.

While the stats may not matter as much as Buzz's opinion, he could easily counter this statement that neither do wins.  I'm not arguing with your logic just pointing out that that is the next logical progression to what you just posted.

[PGsHeroes32]

While I would like to see Burton play more the simple fact is that Juan and Chris cannot play. Literally not at all in terms of Juan and Chris very limited and don't start. If the tip is deemed to importan. Fine have him tip and first whistle...out.

It makes Derrick who is already inept offensively even more of a problem because he's surrouned by other guys who suck just as bad on offense.

Two of your starters are complete brick layers at the line(and they get there a lot). Another is just all around bad at basketball(sorry to those I offend but Juan is BAD), another who cannot get his own shot and then finally the only 1 with true all around talent is scared little no show every time we need him.

The "defense" thing is a myth. This lineup gives up just as many open shots there are so many games that support this lineup giving up huge runs. The difference is...they can't score with the other team so it's a lopsided run.

And honestly, how many games have we lost due to defense? Not many. It is because we cannot score.

I tried to be positive before this game. I still love this team and I still think Buzz is a heck of a coach. But he is doing horrible this year. And all it's doing is halting the development for next year. Continuing to play bad players with no upside(and heck won't even be here next year in the case of Chris) is just plain and simple dumb.

I mean today alone we start get them in early foul trouble, Davante gets an early bucket. Things are going pretty good...Buzz thinks its time to put Juan and Chris back in..TOGETHER!!! Hilliard goes god mode. Juan starts handing out and 1's like it was what we recruited him for.

[amen426]

But he's a defensive disaster on D. He's the Pedro Cerano on the team (or Rob Deer for a real life comp). Sure, we will get 10 PTs (or 25 HRs), but we will get 4 fouls, 2 TOs, and 16 PTs allowed (220 strikeouts).

Between all the coaches on here and the ability for posters who get off on finding more words to complain about DW, this board is full of clowns.

As opposed to a defensive disaster on Offense? You are correct. To his board is full of clowns.

Davante Gardner averaged 19 minutes per game as a sophomore, and he was a much worse defender at that point than Burton ever has been this year. And that team was an elite 8 team. Certainly you can find 15 MPGs for a player with his offensive-upside, on a team that struggles so mightily on the offensive end.

Good coaches find ways to get their assets on the court. Bo Ryan played Sam Dekker 22 mpg last year, even though he was consistently the worst defender on the floor. But he was able to provide something no one else on the Badgers could.

Burton makes getting buckets look easy, on a team that makes it look so difficult at times. That's an asset.

[mviale]

Hold on. You really think Marquette is better than 3rd in BE if Buzz did a better job? Insane!  Creighton and nova are amazing college teams and last years team would have issues with these 2 teams

[GGGG]

Prior to today, he played less than double digit minutes in four of the previous five games.

Our record in those games?  4-0.

Again, how exactly has Buzz been screwing up here?  

[NersEllenson]

Sorry that talking about his obvious lack of defensive fundamentals bothers you.

There are games (like today) where his offense more than overcomes his defensive liabilities.  However we all know there have been others where they haven't.  And considering how well MU had been playing (and scoring), it's obvious why Buzz hasn't been playing him and others.  I think he will only get better.  He has an ENORMOUS upside and seemingly a great attitude.  He will learn.  But pretending his liabilities don't exist won't make them go away.

I mean, you were one of the guys bitching about Buzz playing too many players.  So he shortened the line up...won some games...and they have a bad loss and you are going to bitch some more???  Unreal.

End of the day - Burton is one of the 5 best players on this team right now...period...and he should be in the shortened rotation, and I've said as much dating back to non-con.  I mean my God....Juan and Derrick gave us 2 points in a combined 49 minutes....I mean, you better be freaking unbelievable as a defender to offset just how much your team is playing uphill when you combine for 2 points in 49 minutes....

This whole defensive approach hasn't worked - and as for our wins in 5 of last 6 - you can say Xavier and GTwon were good wins (At Home), but let's not get carried away with beating DePaul, Seton Hall and Butler as proof everything was working so well.  Plus they gave Dawson 19 minutes in GTown game which was a big adjustment...rotation should include:

Derrick, Dawson, Mayo, Jake, Jamil, Gardner, Burton - with spot minutes for Otule, and Steve and Juan being 10th and 11th men at this point..

[PGsHeroes32]

Prior to today, he played less than double digit minutes in four of the previous five games.

Our record in those games?  4-0.

Again, how exactly has Buzz been screwing up here?  

DePaul, Butler, Seton Hall....seriously?

O yeah we gave up 94 to DePaul. GO DEFENSE!!!

[mattyv1908]

Why are you moving the goalposts?  

I was countering your argument that he was a good defensive player based on "advanced metrics."  I never said that Jamil and Juan played well today - they weren't part of the conversation.

I'm not trying to move the goal posts, I'm just trying to put 'poor defensive performance' into context.


10.3% of opponents possessions end in either a Deonte Burton steal or blocked shot, 5.3% steal rate and 5.0% block rate respectively.

Our next best player is at 6.9% with Otule but it is heavily skewed with a 0.5% steal rate and a 6.4% block rate.  Our average for the team is around 3.5%.


Now I'll agree with you that no set of stats tells the entire story, but I do think defensive metrics are very indicative of a player's impact on games.  Over one in ten defensive possessions that Burton is on the floor ends in a steal or a blocked shot.  How can you honestly think that's less important than having his head on a swivel when our proverbial good defenders have little to no positive impact on a game defensively?

[WellsstreetWanderer]

If our starting defense is irreplaceable, how come so many opponents have career days against us?   We need offense - 20% on lay ups doesn't make it. We need scores on the court.