MUScoop

Unless Dawson's defense improves, he has to really bring it on the offensive end to make up for his defensive short coming.  Watch the first 3 or 4 Nova possessions when Dawson came into the game in the first half. His on ball defense at the point of attack is atrocious, resulting in drives to the lane and rotations and defensive break-downs by MU.

So, he needs to either be a prolific scorer, or, a better defender. Right now he is neither.  I'd love to see him get more time, but he had better become a better one ball defender.   

Quote from: GOO on January 27, 2014, 10:16:31 AM
Unless Dawson's defense improves, he has to really bring it on the offensive end to make up for his defensive short coming.  Watch the first 3 or 4 Nova possessions when Dawson came into the game in the first half. His on ball defense at the point of attack is atrocious, resulting in drives to the lane and rotations and defensive break-downs by MU.

So, he needs to either be a prolific scorer, or, a better defender. Right now he is neither.  I'd love to see him get more time, but he had better become a better one ball defender.   

Just for comparison, did you watch all of Derrick Wilson's defensive possessions? How do you feel he did against Villanova on the defensive side of the ball?

Quote from: Norm on January 27, 2014, 10:46:23 AM
Just for comparison, did you watch all of Derrick Wilson's defensive possessions? How do you feel he did against Villanova on the defensive side of the ball?

The important comparison, and really the only one that matters, is that Buzz clearly believes Derrick is the better defender. And that the offense was being successful enough to not need Dawson's added contributions.

Quote from: GOO on January 27, 2014, 10:16:31 AM
Unless Dawson's defense improves, he has to really bring it on the offensive end to make up for his defensive short coming.  Watch the first 3 or 4 Nova possessions when Dawson came into the game in the first half. His on ball defense at the point of attack is atrocious, resulting in drives to the lane and rotations and defensive break-downs by MU.

So, he needs to either be a prolific scorer, or, a better defender. Right now he is neither.  I'd love to see him get more time, but he had better become a better one ball defender.  

Neither is Derrick Wilson.... Thames, Carson, Neal, Archiedacono, Dunham (when it counted) and a list of others looked like All World players against him...

Is John Dawson Derrick Rose today... No! But ya'll sit up here and pump up a guy plays +30 minutes a night, who just brings the ball up court pounds it in one spot, creates nothing for anyone even himself and cant make a 1,2 or 3 pointer with any consistency...

So with that were 11 and 9..... oh well

Agree De Wilson isn't the defender he was his freshman year.  Dawson shows the quickness to steal the ball and run with it.  We need that type of defense which Dawson and Mayo can do.

Quote from: Stretchdeltsig on January 27, 2014, 11:12:51 AM
Agree De Wilson isn't the defender he was his freshman year.  Dawson shows the quickness to steal the ball and run with it.  We need that type of defense which Dawson and Mayo can do.

Right this man has been with the program 3 YEARS...

Dawson 3 MONTHS....

There should be no question as to who the leader should be, who should rally the troops and control the tempo of the offense and set the tone on defense...... Be that guy who makes things happen... All of that I do not see in Wilson and I cant tell you one game this year that counted besides Grambling or Southern that his impact got us the win.... When announcers have said on record "Hes no threat to score" "A non shooter" "Teams back away from him".. You have a problem..

So if people are calling for Dawson... Its nobodies fault but the man who's supposed to be the man....

Quote from: Nevada233 on January 27, 2014, 11:03:29 AM
Neither is Derrick Wilson.... Thames, Carson, Neal, Archiedacono, Dunham (when it counted) and a list of others looked like All World players against him...

Is John Dawson Derrick Rose today... No! But ya'll sit up here and pump up a guy plays +30 minutes a night, who just brings the ball up court pounds it in one spot, creates nothing for anyone even himself and cant make a 1,2 or 3 pointer with any consistency...

So with that were 11 and 9..... oh well

Go back and watch the tape from Saturday, with one or two possible exceptions Archiedacono did his damage when Wilson was NOT guarding him.  Maybe a small sample size, but relevant.  Also note that Steve Taylor was the help side defender in every single instance.

Quote from: mu03eng on January 27, 2014, 11:23:23 AM
Go back and watch the tape from Saturday, with one or two possible exceptions Archiedacono did his damage when Wilson was NOT guarding him.  Maybe a small sample size, but relevant.  Also note that Steve Taylor was the help side defender in every single instance.

I only listened to the game, so no visual to go on, but Derrick played 36 minutes. Are you saying the majority of his minutes played came with guarding the 2 in Nova's sets?

Why wasn't Wilson on Archiedacono?  Hilliard and Bell were scoring at will as well, so who was he guarding.  His defense is not nearly as good cause he can no longer muscle the PG.  He was an automatic hand check foul when he entered the game the past 2 years.

The difference I see in the team defense this year is less Otule in the middle.  Without him guys are confident they can get to the rim with nobody to stop them.  Gardner is by far our worst defender. It is not even close but he is our best scorer. 
By the way whe have we ever stopped Nova's dribble penetration? 

DWill's defense was better. I'd say a lot better.  I want to see more Dawson and I am not defending or pumping up DWill.  His lack of offensive production is totally unacceptable.  I am simply pointing out that Dawson's defense was really bad.  Dawson needs to get better on the ball.

I firmly believe that a team needs a point guard who can score and shoot it.  Going into this year, I thought it would be a big issue along with the 2 guard.  I would read post after post about how Mayo would step up and "just needs a lot of playing time and a lot of shots" and how DWill didn't need to score, etc.  My expectations were fairly low as neither showed me much in the past, so I didn't expect much this year.

That said, people who think Dawson should be getting 20+ minutes, have to look at his defense.  If his defense is bad, he better be really good on the offensive end.  Otherwise, may as well have DWill play.

Wilson was constantly behind his man chasing him down.   He got beat of the dribble so many times in the nova game.

Quote from: chris006 on January 27, 2014, 12:36:10 PM
Wilson was constantly behind his man chasing him down.   He got beat of the dribble so many times in the nova game.

So did everybody else. 

Buzz thinks Derrick is a better defender than Dawson. Buzz favors defense first. Ergo Buzz is going to play Derrick in a defensive-needed situation.

So, while Buzz's thinking may be wrong, at the current time, regardless of anyone's opinion (outside of Buzz), Derrick will play.

All the rest of this is yelling at the wind.

Quote from: Golden Avalanche on January 27, 2014, 11:36:09 AM
I only listened to the game, so no visual to go on, but Derrick played 36 minutes. Are you saying the majority of his minutes played came with guarding the 2 in Nova's sets?

Wilson played on Arch for the majority of the game until the last 5 minutes and OT.  He switched over to Bell after that.  Whether it was because Bell was hot or Wilson was tired, I have no idea, but Arch got his run when Wilson wasn't guarding him with the exception of one of two possessions.

So of the issue with the drive and dish that worked so well was that the help defender(STj 99% of the time) committed to neither stopping the ball or staying with his man....resulting in the worst of all worlds.

Quote from: jesmu84 on January 27, 2014, 10:57:22 AM
The important comparison, and really the only one that matters, is that Buzz clearly believes Derrick is the better defender. And that the offense was being successful enough to not need Dawson's added contributions.

And on the flip side, whether Buzz believe it or not what we are currently doing is NOT working. We are 11-9 there is absolutely nothing to lose with playing Dawson extended minutes.

Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on January 27, 2014, 01:33:25 PM
And on the flip side, whether Buzz believe it or not what we are currently doing is NOT working. We are 11-9 there is absolutely nothing to lose with playing Dawson extended minutes.

Nothing at all....

Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on January 27, 2014, 01:33:25 PM
And on the flip side, whether Buzz believe it or not what we are currently doing is NOT working. We are 11-9 there is absolutely nothing to lose with playing Dawson extended minutes.

I'm not saying you're wrong. In fact, I've been in favor of Dawson playing more lately. But, based on actions and words, Buzz doesn't agree with you right now. Buzz believes he's playing the guys that give us the best chance to win. Go email him.

Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on January 27, 2014, 01:33:25 PM
And on the flip side, whether Buzz believe it or not what we are currently doing is NOT working. We are 11-9 there is absolutely nothing to lose with playing Dawson extended minutes.

What there is to lose is more basketball games. This team's margin for error is very, very thin. So far this season, they've been on the wrong side of things more often than not, which is rare for Buzz's MU teams. However, the opportunities have been there. The last 3 games have all gone to OT. They all could have gone either way. MU could be 3-0 or 0-3 in those games. The SHU and Xavier games were both one-possession games with under 70 seconds to play. The ASU game came down to the final possession. SDSU, Wisconsin and New Mexico were all close games late. Even the DePaul game was a 3-point game with a little over 4 to play. Yes, MU lost pretty much all of these games but they also easily could have lost to DePaul, SHU or Gtown if Buzz went with the asinine "it can't get worse" philosophy. The current rotation is putting Marquette in position to win games, including games against 3 teams currently ranked in the top 15. Throwing a bunch of frosh out there and hoping for the best isn't the answer.

If Burton and Dawson had played a bulk of the minutes on Saturday, MU would have gotten run out of the gym. With Derrick and Jake getting those minutes, MU was on the verge of an upset. Admittedly, in the end, the result was the same, but wouldn't you rather have players on the floor who give the team the best chance to win?

Look, I'm not opposed to the young players seeing more time but I'm also not dense enough to believe that throwing them out there for 30 minutes a night is what's best for this team.

Quote from: jesmu84 on January 27, 2014, 10:57:22 AM
The important comparison, and really the only one that matters, is that Buzz clearly believes Derrick is the better defender. And that the offense was being successful enough to not need Dawson's added contributions.

This is garbage. Our offense could have been so much better with Dawson on the floor. We were down by 11 with around 4 minutes to play and had to depend on collection of off-balance floaters that rimmed around, a chuck-up by Mayo on the baseline, and Mayo draining three free throws to tie the game...AND that only happened because Nova picked the wrong time to brick a bunch of free throws. I was at the game, and I can tell you with certaintly that we would have been in a much better position to win with Dawson running the point.

Quote from: windyplayer on January 27, 2014, 02:18:53 PM
This is garbage. Our offense could have been so much better with Dawson on the floor. We were down by 11 with around 4 minutes to play and had to depend on collection of off-balance floaters that rimmed around, a chuck-up by Mayo on the baseline, and Mayo draining three free throws to tie the game...AND that only happened because Nova picked the wrong time to brick a bunch of free throws. I was at the game, and I can tell you with certaintly that we would have been in a much better position to win with Dawson running the point.

I was going to disagree but once I saw that you were at the game, all of what you said was validated.

and don't forget a gift of a call to deny Villanova the winning basket...    funny how the slurpers see how Derrick Wilson and Jake Thomas led Marquette to enough offense to potentially upset Villanova.    The realistic folks see the near miracle pulled off by Mayo with help from the refs and Villanova to tie the game.   

Quote from: windyplayer on January 27, 2014, 02:18:53 PM
This is garbage. Our offense could have been so much better with Dawson on the floor. We were down by 11 with around 4 minutes to play and had to depend on collection of off-balance floaters that rimmed around, a chuck-up by Mayo on the baseline, and Mayo draining three free throws to tie the game...AND that only happened because Nova picked the wrong time to brick a bunch of free throws. I was at the game, and I can tell you with certaintly that we would have been in a much better position to win with Dawson running the point.

Quote from: windyplayer on January 27, 2014, 02:18:53 PM
This is garbage. Our offense could have been so much better with Dawson on the floor. We were down by 11 with around 4 minutes to play and had to depend on collection of off-balance floaters that rimmed around, a chuck-up by Mayo on the baseline, and Mayo draining three free throws to tie the game...AND that only happened because Nova picked the wrong time to brick a bunch of free throws. I was at the game, and I can tell you with certaintly that we would have been in a much better position to win with Dawson running the point.

I am 90% sure Marquette was shooting better from the field than Nova with about 4 minutes to play.  Could we have shot even better?  Sure.  But we lost this game with porous defense.  Gave up too many threes and offensive rebounds.  Not singling anyone out.  Nearly everyone was bad.

Quote from: madtownwarrior on January 27, 2014, 02:35:13 PM
and don't forget a gift of a call to deny Villanova the winning basket...    funny how the slurpers see how Derrick Wilson and Jake Thomas led Marquette to enough offense to potentially upset Villanova.    The realistic folks see the near miracle pulled off by Mayo with help from the refs and Villanova to tie the game.  

Marquette needed a "near miracle" from Mayo to take Georgetown into OT but I don't recall any of the "All Dawson, All the time" contingent mentioning that. Does that win not count?

77 points should be enough to win. In fact, if MU had scored 77 points in every game this season, they would have been 17-2 heading into the Nova game.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on January 27, 2014, 02:21:37 PM
I was going to disagree but once I saw that you were at the game, all of what you said was validated.

You must have felt strongly about disagreeing considering you found one phrase in there to pick on that was unrelated to any contention you must have.

I think people acknowledge the near miracle needed at GT.    They also acknowledge that a Dawson lead team won handily in OT.    How did that Wilson lead OT go at Butler or against Vill?

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on January 27, 2014, 02:40:30 PM
Marquette needed a "near miracle" from Mayo to take Georgetown into OT but I don't recall any of the "All Dawson, All the time" contingent mentioning that. Does that win not count?

77 points should be enough to win. In fact, if MU had scored 77 points in every game this season, they would have been 17-2 heading into the Nova game.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on January 27, 2014, 02:40:30 PM
77 points should be enough to win. In fact, if MU had scored 77 points in every game this season, they would have been 17-2 heading into the Nova game.

Well, it wasn't because our defense was atrocious with D Wilson on the floor so we needed that extra offensive boost that Dawson could have provided. You can't tell me that Dawson's defense would have made a noticeable difference for the worse and would have outweighed the increase in offense.

and why has not Marquette averaged 77 in every game - anything do do with our Starting PG averaging 5.1 ppg and 3.8 apg?

but he is the "lockdown defender" as exhibited in the Villanova game...

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on January 27, 2014, 02:40:30 PM
Marquette needed a "near miracle" from Mayo to take Georgetown into OT but I don't recall any of the "All Dawson, All the time" contingent mentioning that. Does that win not count?

77 points should be enough to win. In fact, if MU had scored 77 points in every game this season, they would have been 17-2 heading into the Nova game.

Quote from: madtownwarrior on January 27, 2014, 02:43:52 PM
I think people acknowledge the near miracle needed at GT.    They also acknowledge that a Dawson lead team won handily in OT.    How did that Wilson lead OT go at Butler or against Vill?

Funny you ask...we were outscored 37-16 in those OTs combined.

Quote from: jesmu84 on January 27, 2014, 10:57:22 AM
The important comparison, and really the only one that matters, is that Buzz clearly believes Derrick is the better defender. And that the offense was being successful enough to not need Dawson's added contributions.

Ridiculous. Dawson cannot play worse defense than DW on Saturday. Buzz was afraid to even put him on the opposing PG in OT who ate Mayo alive.

And our offense has been successful enough so that as of now the ONLY way to '64' is to win the conference tournament.

Obviously, you and I have a different definition of 'successful'

Quote from: windyplayer on January 27, 2014, 02:45:24 PM
Well, it wasn't because our defense was atrocious with D Wilson on the floor so we needed that extra offensive boost that Dawson could have provided. You can't tell me that Dawson's defense would have made a noticeable difference for the worse and would have outweighed the increase in offense.

Sure, I can.

Villanova scored 22 points in the 8 minutes that Dawson was on the floor (2.75 pts/min). Villanova scored 72 points in the 36 minutes Derrick was on the floor (2.0 pts/min).

Marquette scored 15 points in the 8 minutes that Dawson was on the floor (1.88 pts/min). Marquette scored 70 points in the 36 minutes Derrick was on the floor (1.94 pts/min).

In other words, Nova scored 0.75 more points/min with Dawson in the game while MU scored 0.07 points less with Dawson in the game.

Listen, a lot of posters have come out of the woodwork to rip on Derrick and on Buzz and pretend like John Dawson's one good game means that he's the answer to all of Marquette's problem (yes, that was hyperbole).

Personally, I think that Dawson is a really talented player and he's going to be a solid contributor for Marquette in the future. I also think that Derrick gives this team a better chance to win right now. Buzz Williams and his coaching staff know the players and their abilities more than any of us ever will and they also believe that Derrick gives this team the best chance to win. I'm going to side with him over a group of frustrated fans.

BTW, don't expect a response from me. I'll be taking a break from posting for a while. There's just too much ridiculousness, ignorance and vitriol on here right now.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on January 27, 2014, 02:54:11 PM
Sure, I can.

Villanova scored 22 points in the 8 minutes that Dawson was on the floor (2.75 pts/min). Villanova scored 72 points in the 36 minutes Derrick was on the floor (2.0 pts/min).

Marquette scored 15 points in the 8 minutes that Dawson was on the floor (1.88 pts/min). Marquette scored 70 points in the 36 minutes Derrick was on the floor (1.94 pts/min).

In other words, Nova scored 0.75 more points/min with Dawson in the game while MU scored 0.07 points less with Dawson in the game.

One good thing about your analysis - the smaller the sampling, the easier to prove a point.

No one as yet has had any explanation for why our great defensive player wasn't guarding the guy going off in OT - even tho they were both point guards. This is the point I will bring up whenever you guys talk about DW's defense and Dawson's lack of it.

Obviously, Buzz lacks confidence in Derrick's defense.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on January 27, 2014, 02:54:11 PM
Sure, I can.

Villanova scored 22 points in the 8 minutes that Dawson was on the floor (2.75 pts/min). Villanova scored 72 points in the 36 minutes Derrick was on the floor (2.0 pts/min).

Marquette scored 15 points in the 8 minutes that Dawson was on the floor (1.88 pts/min). Marquette scored 70 points in the 36 minutes Derrick was on the floor (1.94 pts/min).

In other words, Nova scored 0.75 more points/min with Dawson in the game while MU scored 0.07 points less with Dawson in the game.

There are so many things wrong with those stats in attempting to valdiate your positition. But you seem bright enough to know what they are so I'll save myself a minute or two.

Generally, the frustating thing about this is that we've seen what Dawson is capable of in short stints and for the most part is pretty promising. Wilson has played and played...and lost and lost. Why not give Dawson a chance to lose a few games. Not even Buzz knows what Dawson would do if he was given 30 minutes on the floor. I don't know what Buzz's motives are and he may very well start playing Dawson more down the stretch and Dawson may play well. But that doesn't mean Buzz did his job--he should be questioned for why he didn't make the move so much more earlier in the season when the team still had a puncher's chance at the tourney. 

The point is, I want to see Dawson lose a game with 30 mintues under his belt.

Quote from: windyplayer on January 27, 2014, 03:24:09 PM
There are so many things wrong with those stats in attempting to valdiate your positition. But you seem bright enough to know what they are so I'll save myself a minute or two.

Generally, the frustating thing about this is that we've seen what Dawson is capable of in short stints and for the most part is pretty promising. Wilson has played and played...and lost and lost. Why not give Dawson a chance to lose a few games. Not even Buzz knows what Dawson would do if he was given 30 minutes on the floor. I don't know what Buzz's motives are and he may very well start playing Dawson more down the stretch and Dawson may play well. But that doesn't mean Buzz did his job--he should be questioned for why he didn't make the move so much more earlier in the season when the team still had a puncher's chance at the tourney.  

The point is, I want to see Dawson lose a game with 30 mintues under his belt.

Marquette will has not and will not beat any team worth talking about this year (George Washington.... ehhh I guess) with Derrick Wilson playing 30 Minutes a game.... its just not gonna happen...

So yall can pretend what hes doing is wonderful... But anyone with a functioning brain knows he isn't... this team is in danger of finishing under .500

unless things change...... and change quick.... Trash Dawson all you guys want but Marquettes only win worth talking about came with him playing 31 minutes.....

the 9 Losses... Different story.. Im still waiting for someone to tell me what game has Derrick won this year or in the two previous seasons...

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on January 27, 2014, 02:59:28 PM
Listen, a lot of posters have come out of the woodwork to rip on Derrick and on Buzz and pretend like John Dawson's one good game means that he's the answer to all of Marquette's problem (yes, that was hyperbole).

Personally, I think that Dawson is a really talented player and he's going to be a solid contributor for Marquette in the future. I also think that Derrick gives this team a better chance to win right now. Buzz Williams and his coaching staff know the players and their abilities more than any of us ever will and they also believe that Derrick gives this team the best chance to win. I'm going to side with him over a group of frustrated fans.

BTW, don't expect a response from me. I'll be taking a break from posting for a while. There's just too much ridiculousness, ignorance and vitriol on here right now.

That's all fine and well that you think this...but....we aren't winning right now (at least not against anyone of any decency - damn near lost at home to Seton Hall and eeked out an ugly win against DePaul.)

But, I do agree with you on their being too much ignorance on this board - thankfully when you stop posting and trying to assert that our PG play isn't what ails this team above all else - some of that ignorance will subside.   ;D

Quote from: windyplayer on January 27, 2014, 03:24:09 PM
There are so many things wrong with those stats in attempting to valdiate your positition. But you seem bright enough to know what they are so I'll save myself a minute or two.

Generally, the frustating thing about this is that we've seen what Dawson is capable of in short stints and for the most part is pretty promising. Wilson has played and played...and lost and lost. Why not give Dawson a chance to lose a few games. Not even Buzz knows what Dawson would do if he was given 30 minutes on the floor. I don't know what Buzz's motives are and he may very well start playing Dawson more down the stretch and Dawson may play well. But that doesn't mean Buzz did his job--he should be questioned for why he didn't make the move so much more earlier in the season when the team still had a puncher's chance at the tourney. 

The point is, I want to see Dawson lose a game with 30 mintues under his belt.

It's almost impossible to believe that someone could be so condescending and utterly, hopelessly ignorant in the same post.  

There are more players on this team than Derrick Wilson.  He is not the only reason we are losing games.  

Of course Buzz knows what Dawson is capable of.   Buzz knows more about basketball than you and me and Ners (well, apparently not Ners) and everyone else on Scoop combined.  He sees Dawson for hours every week in practice.  You see him for a few minutes of game action every week.  Are you really telling me that you know more about how Dawson would do if given 30 minutes than Buzz does?  Is that in any way serious?

You say you want to see Dawson play more even if we lose?  WTF!  Do you think Buzz wants to "see what John can do" even if we lose when he ALREADY KNOWS WHAT DAWSON CAN DO BASED ON HOURS OF PRACTICE EACH WEEK?  Buzz doesn't want to lose.  

Buzz's "motives" are to win games.  WTF else would they be?  

The crazy thing here is this doesn't need to be an either/or situation.

Wilson can play more than the 1 mpg his most vocal detractors would prefer, and Dawson can play more than the 8 mpg that Derrick's proponents might want.

I'd like to see Buzz go in thinking they'll split the 40 minutes right down the middle and then make some adjustments on the fly. A 36-8 split in an OT game seems out of line -- and it might help explain why Derrick gets beat late in games.

Even if Dawson is struggling, I'd like to see him get some more rope to overcome his struggles -- if nothing else than to keep Derrick fresh late in games when we really need his defense.

It is accurate that Derrick wasn't on their PG for most of the OT, but that begs two questions:

1. Why not use him to shut down the other team's engine if he is supposed to be the great defensive player his coach ever saw?

2. Why do people seem to forget that Derrick WAS on Arcidiacono on the first possession? That led to a blow-by and 2 FTs. That was followed by Mayo's TO, a 3-point play that included Jamil's 5th foul, a 5-point lead for Nova and a horrible start to what would turn out to be a horrific OT.

Derrick is a decent to good defender who is being asked to do WAY too much, both on defense and offense. Dawson seems to have some offensive ability but needs to get better on defense.

Quote from: Nevada233 on January 27, 2014, 03:43:25 PM
the 9 Losses... Different story.. Im still waiting for someone to tell me what game has Derrick won this year or in the two previous seasons...

What game has any one player won this season, or any previous season?

Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on January 27, 2014, 03:50:43 PM
It's almost impossible to believe that someone could be so condescending and utterly, hopelessly ignorant in the same post.  

There are more players on this team than Derrick Wilson.  He is not the only reason we are losing games.  

Of course Buzz knows what Dawson is capable of.   Buzz knows more about basketball than you and me and Ners (well, apparently not Ners) and everyone else on Scoop combined.  He sees Dawson for hours every week in practice.  You see him for a few minutes of game action every week.  Are you really telling me that you know more about how Dawson would do if given 30 minutes than Buzz does?  Is that in any way serious?

You say you want to see Dawson play more even if we lose?  WTF!  Do you think Buzz wants to "see what John can do" even if we lose when he ALREADY KNOWS WHAT DAWSON CAN DO BASED ON HOURS OF PRACTICE EACH WEEK?  Buzz doesn't want to lose.  

Buzz's "motives" are to win games.  WTF else would they be?  

Yes, Buzz is above all criticism and no one should question his coaching style ever (a few ignoble world leaders would love you as their pawn). I see what Wilson does in games and what Dawson does in games. I don't care what they do in practice--I'm sure Dawson isn't lying on the practice floor refusing to practice. And if Buzz's primary motive is to win games then why suspend anyone ever, or take out a talented player for making a mistake, etc. It's been said here before, but sometimes, I don't think Buzz puts as much emphasis on winning as he should. And I'm by no means want Wilson banished--he's a solid backup to come off the bench and give us 10 minutes (maybe then we'll see his true defensive prowess from last year when he's not winded from going up and down the court for 30 minutes).

Quote from: MU82 on January 27, 2014, 03:58:01 PM
The crazy thing here is this doesn't need to be an either/or situation.

Wilson can play more than the 1 mpg his most vocal detractors would prefer, and Dawson can play more than the 8 mpg that Derrick's proponents might want.

I'd like to see Buzz go in thinking they'll split the 40 minutes right down the middle and then make some adjustments on the fly. A 36-8 split in an OT game seems out of line -- and it might help explain why Derrick gets beat late in games.

This seems quite reasonable.

Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on January 27, 2014, 03:50:43 PM
It's almost impossible to believe that someone could be so condescending and utterly, hopelessly ignorant in the same post.  

There are more players on this team than Derrick Wilson.  He is not the only reason we are losing games.  

Of course Buzz knows what Dawson is capable of.   Buzz knows more about basketball than you and me and Ners (well, apparently not Ners) and everyone else on Scoop combined.  He sees Dawson for hours every week in practice.  You see him for a few minutes of game action every week.  Are you really telling me that you know more about how Dawson would do if given 30 minutes than Buzz does?  Is that in any way serious?

You say you want to see Dawson play more even if we lose?  WTF!  Do you think Buzz wants to "see what John can do" even if we lose when he ALREADY KNOWS WHAT DAWSON CAN DO BASED ON HOURS OF PRACTICE EACH WEEK?  Buzz doesn't want to lose.  

Buzz's "motives" are to win games.  WTF else would they be?  

In fairness, I don't think anyone has said that he is the only reason that we have lost games.

I think the general point of the derrick detractors is that he has been a big reason, but by no means the only one.

Quote from: MU82 on January 27, 2014, 03:58:01 PM
The crazy thing here is this doesn't need to be an either/or situation.

Wilson can play more than the 1 mpg his most vocal detractors would prefer, and Dawson can play more than the 8 mpg that Derrick's proponents might want.

I'd like to see Buzz go in thinking they'll split the 40 minutes right down the middle and then make some adjustments on the fly. A 36-8 split in an OT game seems out of line -- and it might help explain why Derrick gets beat late in games.

Even if Dawson is struggling, I'd like to see him get some more rope to overcome his struggles -- if nothing else than to keep Derrick fresh late in games when we really need his defense.

It is accurate that Derrick wasn't on their PG for most of the OT, but that begs two questions:

1. Why not use him to shut down the other team's engine if he is supposed to be the great defensive player his coach ever saw?

2. Why do people seem to forget that Derrick WAS on Arcidiacono on the first possession? That led to a blow-by and 2 FTs. That was followed by Mayo's TO, a 3-point play that included Jamil's 5th foul, a 5-point lead for Nova and a horrible start to what would turn out to be a horrific OT.

Derrick is a decent to good defender who is being asked to do WAY too much, both on defense and offense. Dawson seems to have some offensive ability but needs to get better on defense.

All good points. I think people are probably just more tolerant of a freshman struggling/making mistakes as opposed to a junior.

Quote from: brandx on January 27, 2014, 04:24:36 PM
In fairness, I don't think anyone has said that he is the only reason that we have lost games.

I think the general point of the derrick detractors is that he has been a big reason, but by no means the only one.

actually, it is probably said numerous times per day.

Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on January 27, 2014, 04:31:14 PM
actually, it is probably said numerous times per day.

No, it's been said numerous times that Wilson doesn't give MU its best chance to win. And this team has very little margin for error given the lack of true star power on this year's team.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on January 27, 2014, 02:13:19 PM
What there is to lose is more basketball games. This team's margin for error is very, very thin. So far this season, they've been on the wrong side of things more often than not, which is rare for Buzz's MU teams. However, the opportunities have been there. The last 3 games have all gone to OT. They all could have gone either way. MU could be 3-0 or 0-3 in those games. The SHU and Xavier games were both one-possession games with under 70 seconds to play. The ASU game came down to the final possession. SDSU, Wisconsin and New Mexico were all close games late. Even the DePaul game was a 3-point game with a little over 4 to play. Yes, MU lost pretty much all of these games but they also easily could have lost to DePaul, SHU or Gtown if Buzz went with the asinine "it can't get worse" philosophy. The current rotation is putting Marquette in position to win games, including games against 3 teams currently ranked in the top 15. Throwing a bunch of frosh out there and hoping for the best isn't the answer.

If Burton and Dawson had played a bulk of the minutes on Saturday, MU would have gotten run out of the gym. With Derrick and Jake getting those minutes, MU was on the verge of an upset. Admittedly, in the end, the result was the same, but wouldn't you rather have players on the floor who give the team the best chance to win?

Look, I'm not opposed to the young players seeing more time but I'm also not dense enough to believe that throwing them out there for 30 minutes a night is what's best for this team.

Wrong. Buzz went with the asanine strategy against Gtown and we won.

It cannot be any simpler. You can guess all day that Burton and Dawson playing vs Nova that we would have gotten blown out. That is hypothetical. Just like its hypothetical to think that they could get us a win.

What is a proven fact is that playing Derrick and Jake is not equating to wins.

Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on January 27, 2014, 05:25:41 PM
Wrong. Buzz went with the asanine strategy against Gtown and we won.

It cannot be any simpler. You can guess all day that Burton and Dawson playing vs Nova that we would have gotten blown out. That is hypothetical. Just like its hypothetical to think that they could get us a win.

What is a proven fact is that playing Derrick and Jake is not equating to wins.

Hit the nail on the head.  Nothing more really needs to be said.  Other than it was more Derrick Wilson choosing to go with more Dawson in the G'Town game, than Buzz - at least according to Jamil.  Derrick had to tell Buzz to keep Dawson in the game.  Pretty funny actually.

Quote from: mu03eng on January 27, 2014, 01:21:05 PM
Wilson played on Arch for the majority of the game until the last 5 minutes and OT.  He switched over to Bell after that.  Whether it was because Bell was hot or Wilson was tired, I have no idea, but Arch got his run when Wilson wasn't guarding him with the exception of one of two possessions.

So of the issue with the drive and dish that worked so well was that the help defender(STj 99% of the time) committed to neither stopping the ball or staying with his man....resulting in the worst of all worlds.

Thank you for elucidation. Knowing whose 1-5 on both squads, and not always getting the defensive assignments on audio, traps you into wrong thinking some of the time. This helps clear some of that up.

Speaking of defense, it is interesting that many people here spend so much time harping on Wilson whilst Bell had a career day. And of Bell's 30 points, only six came in the last five minutes/overtime and four of those six were free throws whereas 11 of Arch's 20 came in the last five minutes/overtime. Seems to me the guys guarding Bell in the beginning and middle of game and then guarding Arch at end of the game have some 'splaining to do.

Quote from: Golden Avalanche on January 27, 2014, 05:42:35 PM
Thank you for elucidation. Knowing whose 1-5 on both squads, and not always getting the defensive assignments on audio, traps you into wrong thinking some of the time. This helps clear some of that up.

Speaking of defense, it is interesting that many people here spend so much time harping on Wilson whilst Bell had a career day. And of Bell's 30 points, only six came in the last five minutes/overtime and four of those six were free throws whereas 11 of Arch's 20 came in the last five minutes/overtime. Seems to me the guys guarding Bell in the beginning and middle of game and then guarding Arch at end of the game have some 'splaining to do.

Agree.  Dude torched us to start out the game.

Quote from: MarsupialMadness on January 27, 2014, 05:45:00 PM
Agree.  Dude torched us to start out the game.

That other stalwart of defense Ja. Wilson was on Bell at the beginning and through most of the first half, until Buzzo finally realized that Wilson was getting torched  so he let bell torch somebody else.

"Buzz is playing who he believes gives us the best chance to win."

I don't care about winning games. I care about preparing our team for a BE tourney run.

I would rather lose our last ten games if it means a greater shot at winning the BE tourney, which, I believe, Dawson gives us, especially with ten games of 30 minutes.

Buzz should have made changes in the lineup early in the season. He did not. It's too late now and I think the team should play out this season as they have been. Making any drastic changes at the point wouldn't be good for team moral.

Quote from: MARQ_13 on January 27, 2014, 07:07:53 PM
Buzz should have made changes in the lineup early in the season. He did not. It's too late now and I think the team should play out this season as they have been. Making any drastic changes at the point wouldn't be good for team moral.

Why is it too late now?  Still a lot of time for the young guys to develop and still make a run in the BE Tourney.  If anything, do it now while there is still time and save the season and my sanity.  I think we've already hit the ceiling on the Thomas/Wilson combo and I really don't know what it is going to take for Buzz to cut their minutes.

Quote from: MARQ_13 on January 27, 2014, 07:07:53 PM
Buzz should have made changes in the lineup early in the season. He did not. It's too late now and I think the team should play out this season as they have been. Making any drastic changes at the point wouldn't be good for team moral.

As opposed to moral building of the rest of the team watching from the bench as less talented players pile up losses and miss the NCAA tourney...

Quote from: brandx on January 27, 2014, 03:05:48 PM
One good thing about your analysis - the smaller the sampling, the easier to prove a point.

No one as yet has had any explanation for why our great defensive player wasn't guarding the guy going off in OT - even tho they were both point guards. This is the point I will bring up whenever you guys talk about DW's defense and Dawson's lack of it.

Obviously, Buzz lacks confidence in Derrick's defense.

Just another possibility...

Buzz put Mayo on Archie because Mayo had fresher legs. Something Buzz noticed big time on the last play in regulation (Derrick got burned). One of the reasons I don't want Derrick or Dawson playing 30+ is b/c of fatigue, but physical and mental. I actually wish Dawson would have played 15 against Nova.

Quote from: windyplayer on January 27, 2014, 03:24:09 PM
There are so many things wrong with those stats in attempting to valdiate your positition. But you seem bright enough to know what they are so I'll save myself a minute or two.

Generally, the frustating thing about this is that we've seen what Dawson is capable of in short stints and for the most part is pretty promising. Wilson has played and played...and lost and lost. Why not give Dawson a chance to lose a few games. Not even Buzz knows what Dawson would do if he was given 30 minutes on the floor. I don't know what Buzz's motives are and he may very well start playing Dawson more down the stretch and Dawson may play well. But that doesn't mean Buzz did his job--he should be questioned for why he didn't make the move so much more earlier in the season when the team still had a puncher's chance at the tourney. 

The point is, I want to see Dawson lose a game with 30 mintues under his belt.

I think the facts at hand clearly point to Buzz believing Derrick gives the team the best chance to win in every game.

If Dawson does play more and does win down the road, I don't think there should be any questioning of Buzz over not playing him more earlier. Derrick has probably only improved slightly over the last 3 months while Dawson has likely taken leaps in that department. So, Dawson now or in a month would be completely different from Dawson in November.

Quote from: windyplayer on January 27, 2014, 04:13:06 PM
Yes, Buzz is above all criticism and no one should question his coaching style ever (a few ignoble world leaders would love you as their pawn). I see what Wilson does in games and what Dawson does in games. I don't care what they do in practice--I'm sure Dawson isn't lying on the practice floor refusing to practice. And if Buzz's primary motive is to win games then why suspend anyone ever, or take out a talented player for making a mistake, etc. It's been said here before, but sometimes, I don't think Buzz puts as much emphasis on winning as he should. And I'm by no means want Wilson banished--he's a solid backup to come off the bench and give us 10 minutes (maybe then we'll see his true defensive prowess from last year when he's not winded from going up and down the court for 30 minutes).

It is not that Buzz is above criticism. No one has said that EVER. Love that you compared him to an "ignoble world leader" btw. We just recognize and accept that we as fans only have a limited amount of data by which to judge Dawson, (the few minutes he plays in games). Buzz has BOOKS full of data on Dawson. Not only that, but Buzz has the equivalent of a basketball PHD, while most of us fans don't even have an associate degree. (Sorry Ners, I know you played pickup basketball with the team in the early 90s. So I'll say you took a weekend seminar on basketball). So not only does Buzz have more data than us, but he is better at interpreting the data.

So no, Buzz is not beyond reproach. Not even close. But when it comes down to listening to bunch of angry fans screaming on the internet or listening to a decorated head coach....I'm gonna listen to the decorated head coach

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 28, 2014, 10:51:05 AM
It is not that Buzz is above criticism. No one has said that EVER. Love that you compared him to an "ignoble world leader" btw. We just recognize and accept that we as fans only have a limited amount of data by which to judge Dawson, (the few minutes he plays in games). Buzz has BOOKS full of data on Dawson. Not only that, but Buzz has the equivalent of a basketball PHD, while most of us fans don't even have an associate degree. (Sorry Ners, I know you played pickup basketball with the team in the early 90s. So I'll say you took a weekend seminar on basketball). So not only does Buzz have more data than us, but he is better at interpreting the data.

So no, Buzz is not beyond reproach. Not even close. But when it comes down to listening to bunch of angry fans screaming on the internet or listening to a decorated head coach....I'm gonna listen to the decorated head coach

Not to mention that Buzz has the Sport VU system so literally all the possible statistical data on in-game performance as opposed to eye tests and admittedly vague remembrances of who was guarding who and when

Quote from: jesmu84 on January 27, 2014, 09:18:25 PM
Just another possibility...

Buzz put Mayo on Archie because Mayo had fresher legs. Something Buzz noticed big time on the last play in regulation (Derrick got burned). One of the reasons I don't want Derrick or Dawson playing 30+ is b/c of fatigue, but physical and mental. I actually wish Dawson would have played 15 against Nova.

I enjoy arguing with you because you usually make good points. I think we can agree that Derrick is playing 30+ minutes because Buzz trusts him on defense (obviously not for what he does on the offensive end), but doesn't Derrick lose his value on the floor completely if he is not involved in the defense at all. In OT, he simply played straight up on one of their 3-point shooters away from the hoop and provided no help defense as Archi drove time after time into the lane. John could just as easily have stood 25' from the basket on defense and given us more on offense.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 28, 2014, 10:51:05 AM
It is not that Buzz is above criticism. No one has said that EVER. Love that you compared him to an "ignoble world leader" btw. We just recognize and accept that we as fans only have a limited amount of data by which to judge Dawson, (the few minutes he plays in games). Buzz has BOOKS full of data on Dawson. Not only that, but Buzz has the equivalent of a basketball PHD, while most of us fans don't even have an associate degree. (Sorry Ners, I know you played pickup basketball with the team in the early 90s. So I'll say you took a weekend seminar on basketball). So not only does Buzz have more data than us, but he is better at interpreting the data.

So no, Buzz is not beyond reproach. Not even close. But when it comes down to listening to bunch of angry fans screaming on the internet or listening to a decorated head coach....I'm gonna listen to the decorated head coach

I see your point. But your premise at the beginning of your post starts to unravel as you talk about all of these resources Buzz's consults in making his determinations and that they're far beyond anything we take into account with regard to the Dawson/Wilson debate--no argument there. But his access to these resources does not put him above reproach in this ongoing debate.  Even with all this data, Buzz needs to convert it into information and make a human decision based on it. So, my argument is that Buzz may have all of this information, but I think he's still making the wrong decision. And I can't imagine that there's a lot of statisticall information to go off of for Dawson who has pretty much played sparingly thus far. I just want to see Dawson play a few 25 minute games and then start crunching the numbers between the two. Taking little 2, 3, 4, or 5 minute stretches with Dawson on the floor and adding them up to 25 to comprise a game is not fair to Dawson--if indeed Buzz is going off of raw numbers.  

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 28, 2014, 10:51:05 AM
Love that you compared him to an "ignoble world leader" btw.

No, only one of their followers.

Quote from: brandx on January 28, 2014, 11:52:42 AM
I enjoy arguing with you because you usually make good points. I think we can agree that Derrick is playing 30+ minutes because Buzz trusts him on defense (obviously not for what he does on the offensive end), but doesn't Derrick lose his value on the floor completely if he is not involved in the defense at all. In OT, he simply played straight up on one of their 3-point shooters away from the hoop and provided no help defense as Archi drove time after time into the lane. John could just as easily have stood 25' from the basket on defense and given us more on offense.

Whether he loses his value depends completely on what Buzz told him to do.  If he told him to stay with James Bell no matter what then Derrick is going to stay with James Bell no matter what. 

That's where, I suspect, the freshmen run into trouble with Buzz and why they get the quick hook when they screw up.

If Buzz tells a guy not to help off his man (as an example) and in one of their first trips down the floor they help off their man, whether that leads to a score or not, what in the world do you expect Buzz to do?  Just let player keep doing whatever the player wants?  No, sit his ass on the bench until he learns to do what you ask on a consistent basis. 

My simplistic guess is that Buzz asks the guys to do very specific things when on the floor.  If they can't or won't do them, they sit.  He'll live with the results he gets from the players that do what he's asking them to do.

Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on January 28, 2014, 12:43:22 PM
Whether he loses his value depends completely on what Buzz told him to do.  If he told him to stay with James Bell no matter what then Derrick is going to stay with James Bell no matter what. 

That's where, I suspect, the freshmen run into trouble with Buzz and why they get the quick hook when they screw up.

If Buzz tells a guy not to help off his man (as an example) and in one of their first trips down the floor they help off their man, whether that leads to a score or not, what in the world do you expect Buzz to do?  Just let player keep doing whatever the player wants?  No, sit his ass on the bench until he learns to do what you ask on a consistent basis. 

My simplistic guess is that Buzz asks the guys to do very specific things when on the floor.  If they can't or won't do them, they sit.  He'll live with the results he gets from the players that do what he's asking them to do.

Spoken like a true parent.  Maybe there is a divide between those of us who have raised children and those who have not (or at least not not in a successful way)  ;D

Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on January 28, 2014, 12:43:22 PM
Whether he loses his value depends completely on what Buzz told him to do.  If he told him to stay with James Bell no matter what then Derrick is going to stay with James Bell no matter what.  

That's where, I suspect, the freshmen run into trouble with Buzz and why they get the quick hook when they screw up.

If Buzz tells a guy not to help off his man (as an example) and in one of their first trips down the floor they help off their man, whether that leads to a score or not, what in the world do you expect Buzz to do?  Just let player keep doing whatever the player wants?  No, sit his ass on the bench until he learns to do what you ask on a consistent basis.  

My simplistic guess is that Buzz asks the guys to do very specific things when on the floor.  If they can't or won't do them, they sit.  He'll live with the results he gets from the players that do what he's asking them to do.

I think you hit the jackpot

Quote from: brandx on January 28, 2014, 11:52:42 AM
I enjoy arguing with you because you usually make good points. I think we can agree that Derrick is playing 30+ minutes because Buzz trusts him on defense (obviously not for what he does on the offensive end), but doesn't Derrick lose his value on the floor completely if he is not involved in the defense at all. In OT, he simply played straight up on one of their 3-point shooters away from the hoop and provided no help defense as Archi drove time after time into the lane. John could just as easily have stood 25' from the basket on defense and given us more on offense.

The OT argument I totally buy for Dawson.  That was I think Buzz's biggest coaching error to date, especially when the score opened up on us a little bit.  We needed offense and shooters, which is clearly not Wilson.  When Buzz made the Mayo/Wilson defensive switch, especially down I think that's when Dawson could/should have been inserted.  Could you imagine if Wilson had been fouled shooting a 3 instead of Mayo??

Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on January 28, 2014, 12:43:22 PM
Whether he loses his value depends completely on what Buzz told him to do.  If he told him to stay with James Bell no matter what then Derrick is going to stay with James Bell no matter what. 

That's where, I suspect, the freshmen run into trouble with Buzz and why they get the quick hook when they screw up.

If Buzz tells a guy not to help off his man (as an example) and in one of their first trips down the floor they help off their man, whether that leads to a score or not, what in the world do you expect Buzz to do?  Just let player keep doing whatever the player wants?  No, sit his ass on the bench until he learns to do what you ask on a consistent basis. 

My simplistic guess is that Buzz asks the guys to do very specific things when on the floor.  If they can't or won't do them, they sit.  He'll live with the results he gets from the players that do what he's asking them to do.

Fair point, no doubt. My problem is the punishment doesn't fit the crime. Did Dawson really do something that bad in that 2-minute stretch in the second half against Nova to warrant being benched for the remainder of the game. Excessive punishishment on behalf of a parent is not fair to the child, to borrow the other poster's analogy, and in the end, it stunts development.

Quote from: windyplayer on January 28, 2014, 02:12:19 PM
Fair point, no doubt. My problem is the punishment doesn't fit the crime. Did Dawson really do something that bad in that 2-minute stretch in the second half against Nova to warrant being benched for the remainder of the game. Excessive punishishment on behalf of a parent is not fair to the child, to borrow the other poster's analogy, and in the end, it stunts development.

Based on Buzz's success in both team success and player development success, I would argue his method does NOT stunt development at the team or individual level.

Quote from: jesmu84 on January 28, 2014, 02:19:23 PM
Based on Buzz's success in both team success and player development success, I would argue his method does NOT stunt development at the team or individual level.

There are two arguments at play here in the Great Debate:

(1) Wilson is the best player based on Buzz's assessment of Wilson & Dawson as the head coach and his access to a plethora of resources to assess player performance, development, etc.

(2) Buzz doesn't necessairly think Wilson is the better player, but Wilson is playing because Dawson hasn't done enough or has not done the right things to warrant more PT than Wilson.

These are two distinct arguments. I can stomach argument #2 for the sake of perhaps a brighter future for Dawson and the team, but not #1.

Quote from: windyplayer on January 28, 2014, 02:12:19 PM
Fair point, no doubt. My problem is the punishment doesn't fit the crime. Did Dawson really do something that bad in that 2-minute stretch in the second half against Nova to warrant being benched for the remainder of the game. Excessive punishishment on behalf of a parent is not fair to the child, to borrow the other poster's analogy, and in the end, it stunts development.

I don't know the answer, but it's got to go back to practice and what they talk about probably over and over.  If players aren't listening or aren't doing what they are told after all those hours of practice, then maybe it does warrant being benched.  Who really knows, except the guys on the team and the coaches.

Is there a team in the Nation besides Marquette that has a 1 and 2 guard playing 70+ Minutes a night and one cant make a shot or a free throw and the other cant create a shot...... But have Frosh and Big Shot Todd who can sitting on the bench... Lol I think we'd be hard pressed to find a team who does this...

Quote from: windyplayer on January 28, 2014, 02:35:33 PM
There are two arguments at play here in the Great Debate:

(1) Wilson is the best player based on Buzz's assessment of Wilson & Dawson as the head coach and his access to a plethora of resources to assess player performance, development, etc.

(2) Buzz doesn't necessairly think Wilson is the better player, but Wilson is playing because Dawson hasn't done enough or has not done the right things to warrant more PT than Wilson.

These are two distinct arguments. I can stomach argument #2 for the sake of perhaps a brighter future for Dawson and the team, but not #1.

I think Dawson has done enough, personally, I think his increased time over the last 10 game is evident of that. I personally don't really believe Buzz has a quick hook when it comes to Dawson. What I do believe is that any player is given a quick hook if they make a mistake on the court and also is not playing to the gameplan. We've heard Buzz compliment guys for sticking to the gameplan. So, I think that Dawson is free to make mistakes (not a TON of them), as long as those mistakes come while sticking to the gameplan. If Dawson doubled a post player when Buzz set the gameplan as not doubling, and we gave up a basket, then yes, he should be pulled. But if Dawson gives up points while sticking to the plan, I'll bet Buzz lets him stay in the game.

It's this simple.

Freshman earn playing time when they can play the defense that Buzz is looking for, consistently.

That's how Vander earned court time as a freshman.

Thanks for the reminder Sultan.

Quote from: mu-rara on January 28, 2014, 08:37:39 PM
It's this simple.

Freshman earn playing time when they can play the defense that Buzz is looking for, consistently.

That's how Vander earned court time as a freshman.

Thanks for the reminder Sultan.

But if upper classmen cannot play defense, then by virtue of their status as upper classmen, they'll play over the freshmen even at the expense of the team's success?

Quote from: windyplayer on January 29, 2014, 09:38:01 AM
But if upper classmen cannot play defense, then by virtue of their status as upper classmen, they'll play over the freshmen even at the expense of the team's success?

No. As evidenced by Juan sitting more. And Gardner playing more.

If players play to the gameplan, then they play.

Quote from: Nevada233 on January 28, 2014, 06:44:01 PM
Is there a team in the Nation besides Marquette that has a 1 and 2 guard playing 70+ Minutes a night and one cant make a shot or a free throw and the other cant create a shot...... But have Frosh and Big Shot Todd who can sitting on the bench... Lol I think we'd be hard pressed to find a team who does this...

I've done some research and shockingly haven't been able to identify another backcourt capable of the above feat.  What I cannot assess, however, is other team's guards ability to play to the scouting report (yet is still leading to losses and no wins over Top 50 teams).  Perhaps the issue isn't our personnel at all - it's the scouting reports!! 

Quote from: jesmu84 on January 29, 2014, 10:14:00 AM
If players play to the gameplan, then they play.

Fine, but I don't think that Dawson straying away from the gameplan occasionally warrants riding the pine for as much as he does. I can guarantee you that the kid is working hard at staying on the floor and Buzz is crushing this kid's morale by continuing to pull him on every whim.

By all means, if there's compelling and consistent evidence of Dawson straying away from the gameplan more so than other players that get way more minutes than him, then please provide it.

Quote from: windyplayer on January 29, 2014, 11:01:06 AM
Fine, but I don't think that Dawson straying away from the gameplan occasionally warrants riding the pine for as much as he does. I can guarantee you that the kid is working hard at staying on the floor and Buzz is crushing this kid's morale by continuing to pull him on every whim.

By all means, if there's compelling and consistent evidence of Dawson straying away from the gameplan more so than other players that get way more minutes than him, then please provide it.

Fair enough. You're entitled to your thoughts just as I am. I'm making some extrapolations from what Buzz has said combined with Derrick and Dawson's minutes to this point.

Buzz seems to have treated just about every underclass player the same throughout his tenure, so Buzz might be "crushing" Dawson's morale, but it's worked out pretty well for us so far.

I don't have "compelling and consistent evidence", mostly because I don't know what Buzz's gameplans are in each game or each situation. And neither do you. We just have to accept this is Buzz's preference for the situation and he has his reasons. You can continue to disagree with all of it, that's fine. I will continue to question it as well, but I accept that Buzz is a smarter basketball mind than mine.

Quote from: jesmu84 on January 29, 2014, 11:59:44 AM
Fair enough. You're entitled to your thoughts just as I am. I'm making some extrapolations from what Buzz has said combined with Derrick and Dawson's minutes to this point.

Buzz seems to have treated just about every underclass player the same throughout his tenure, so Buzz might be "crushing" Dawson's morale, but it's worked out pretty well for us so far.

I don't have "compelling and consistent evidence", mostly because I don't know what Buzz's gameplans are in each game or each situation. And neither do you. We just have to accept this is Buzz's preference for the situation and he has his reasons. You can continue to disagree with all of it, that's fine. I will continue to question it as well, but I accept that Buzz is a smarter basketball mind than mine.

You know, I'm not so sure it's worked out very well thus far with the high school players Buzz has brought in.  As I reflect, I'd say Vander, Junior, Gardner, Todd have been the 4 guys who have had productive careers coming from high school ranks. 

For as bad as Vander was as a freshman, it's amazing Buzz stuck with him like he did - and I'd say that ultimately ended up paying off for Buzz/MU.  The difference in remaining die hard loyal to guys like Derrick and Jake are that they are in their 3rd and 5th year of college ball - if the results aren't there by now...

I just know it sucks to play the game of basketball and be worried that if you screw up so much as once in the first two minutes of game action, that you have a 95% chance of getting yanked - makes the game that much harder to play, as you aren't playing relaxed.  Every player wants to stay on the court for as long as they can - shouldn't have the fear of getting pulled in a matter of 2 minutes.  Todd dealt with that all of last year, and Dawson is dealing with it this year.

Quote from: windyplayer on January 29, 2014, 11:01:06 AM
Fine, but I don't think that Dawson straying away from the gameplan occasionally warrants riding the pine for as much as he does. I can guarantee you that the kid is working hard at staying on the floor and Buzz is crushing this kid's morale by continuing to pull him on every whim.

Do you really think he is pulling Dawson "on every whim?"  No.  He is pulling him when he makes repeated mistakes on the defensive end of the floor.  

Quote from: Ners on January 29, 2014, 12:10:14 PM
You know, I'm not so sure it's worked out very well thus far with the high school players Buzz has brought in.  As I reflect, I'd say Vander, Junior, Gardner, Todd have been the 4 guys who have had productive careers coming from high school ranks. 

Name one player who you think should have played, but hasn't and had their "morale crushed" as a result?

Seriously, how many players here *should* have played earlier than they actually did?  Buzz plays freshmen when they produce on the court...Vander...Todd...Davante.  Buzz doesn't have a history of ignoring talented freshmen for the sake of it.

Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on January 29, 2014, 12:17:28 PM

Name one player who you think should have played, but hasn't and had their "morale crushed" as a result?

Seriously, how many players here *should* have played earlier than they actually did?  Buzz plays freshmen when they produce on the court...Vander...Todd...Davante.  Buzz doesn't have a history of ignoring talented freshmen for the sake of it.

John Dawson.  Deonte Burton.  JJJ.  Perhaps morale not "crushed" - but to sit behind guys who aren't nearly as talented, combined with the team losing games....not great for morale.

Can't imagine how this team might look if Buzz gave Dawson and Burton the same slack and leash he gave Vander as a freshman...because Vander was AWFUL as a freshman and to deny otherwise is foolish.  Vander had the benefit of coming into the program when there wasn't much depth...so that in and of itself gave him a longer leash.

Sultan

Are you watching other games than MU on TV? Freshmen are playing across the country and being difference makers. I am not saying just top 10 guys, but dozens across the country. Not playing freshmen is stupid and could bite Buzz in the ass down the road.

Quote from: Ners on January 29, 2014, 12:23:40 PM
John Dawson.  Deonte Burton.  JJJ.  Perhaps morale not "crushed" - but to sit behind guys who aren't nearly as talented, combined with the team losing games....not great for morale.

Great circular argument.

You: Our current freshmen are getting their morale crushed
Me: Name one time this has happened before
You: Our current freshman

Quote from: Goose on January 29, 2014, 12:25:44 PM
Sultan

Are you watching other games than MU on TV? Freshmen are playing across the country and being difference makers. I am not saying just top 10 guys, but dozens across the country. Not playing freshmen is stupid and could bite Buzz in the ass down the road.

Other places aren't Marquette.  Each situation has to be evaluated on its own.

Again, how is it going to "bite his ass?"

Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on January 29, 2014, 12:36:35 PM

Other places aren't Marquette.  Each situation has to be evaluated on its own.

Again, how is it going to "bite his ass?"

Yeah - Other schools aren't Marquette. They are playing some of their freshman and certainly aren't sitting them behind guys who have made 1 3pt shot in the equivalent of 14.65 full games and one two point shot every 7 full games. And these are your guards numbers!!  Not you bigs. It's beyond ridiculous.

I think at this point it comes down to finding out if Dawson can be the long-term point guard. We know what we will forever get from Derrick, and it isn't enough to get this team going. There's no way Derrick improves enough heading into his senior year to run the team next season. With this season just about shot, give Dawson the ball and possibly give us some hope for the future. If he can't do it, what do we lose?

Quote from: Ners on January 29, 2014, 12:54:25 PM
Yeah - Other schools aren't Marquette. They are playing some of their freshman and certainly aren't sitting them behind guys who have made 1 3pt shot in the equivalent of 14.65 full games and one two point shot every 7 full games. And these are your guards numbers!!  Not you bigs. It's beyond ridiculous.

I think you should start a topic about this.  Surely it hasn't been discussed in as great a detail as it should be.

Ya knows its bad when Cadougan now looks like the second comin' of Chris Paul.

Quote from: Ners on January 29, 2014, 12:54:25 PM
Yeah - Other schools aren't Marquette. They are playing some of their freshman and certainly aren't sitting them behind guys who have made 1 3pt shot in the equivalent of 14.65 full games and one two point shot every 7 full games. And these are your guards numbers!!  Not you bigs. It's beyond ridiculous.

You know what's beyond ridiculous? People have been awarded PHDs based on dissertations shorter in length than the one you've composed on Derrick in your hundreds of posts. Isn't there another dead horse somewhere you'd like to beat on?

Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on January 29, 2014, 12:36:35 PM

Other places aren't Marquette.  Each situation has to be evaluated on its own.

Again, how is it going to "bite his ass?"

We are 11-9. If that doesn't merit a shakeup I don't know what does. I think it's going to bite him in the ass because other schools are going to point out to recruits that we are a crappy team and still don't give our talented freshman playing time. I would take an extra loss or two to give our future some game experience...does it really matter what our record is if we aren't going to the tourney? Doesn't to me!

Quote from: windyplayer on January 29, 2014, 11:01:06 AM
Fine, but I don't think that Dawson straying away from the gameplan occasionally warrants riding the pine for as much as he does. I can guarantee you that the kid is working hard at staying on the floor and Buzz is crushing this kid's morale by continuing to pull him on every whim.

By all means, if there's compelling and consistent evidence of Dawson straying away from the gameplan more so than other players that get way more minutes than him, then please provide it.

Just call Buzz and ask for a copy of the game plan for Providence.

I'm sure this is a pointless exercise but I was curious. Here is minutes and results of HS freshmen recruited by Buzz Williams:

Chris Otule: 6.7 mpg, got injured, eventually became a starter and solid rotation player. Morale crushed? NO
Liam McMorrow: Diagnosed with a heart condition. Never played. Became a role player at Tennesse Tech. Couldn't have gotten more minutes
Junior Cadougan: 3.9 mpg, was injured most of the season. Eventually became a starter. Morale crushed? NO
Jeronne Maymon: 16.3 mpg, 2nd player off the bench. Crazy father convinced him to transfer. Become a stud for Tennessee. Should he have gotten more minutes? Maybe
Erik Williams: 5.6 mpg, eventually transferred. Couldn't even crack Sam Houston State's roster. Should he have gotten more minutes? NO
Yous Mbao: 6 mpg, transferred to Marshall, still hasn't cracked their rotation. Should he have gotten more minutes? NO
Vander Blue: 19 mpg, 1st player off the bench. Eventually became a star and cracked and an NBA roster. Morale crushed? NO
Jamail Jones: 5.8 mpg, transferred to FGCU, and 2 years later he has become a solid starter for them. Should he have gotten more minutes? Maybe but probably not
Reggie Smith: 9.9 mpg, 3rd off the bench, transferred midseason to UNLV, couldn't crack their rotation, transferred to Eastern Illinois, became a great starter for them. Should he have gotten more minutes? Maybe but probably not (2 Buycks and Junior ahead of him)
Davante Gardner: 19.1 mpg, 2nd off the bench, become a beast and a starter. Moral crushed? NO
Juan Anderson: 4.5 mpg, last on the bench, became a role player. Morale crushed? NO
Derrick Wilson: 8.8 mpg, 4th off the bench, became a starter but maybe shouldn't have. Morale crushed? NO
Todd Mayo: 21.1 mpg, 1st off the bench, currently gets starters minutes. Morale crushed? NO
Steve Taylor: 8.6 mpg, his potential remains to be seen, should he have gotten more minutes? Debatable but hard to argue with an Elite 8
Jamal Ferguson: 4.6 mpg, transferred to North Carolina Central. Should he have gotten more minutes? Remains to be seen how good he is.
JaJuan Johnson: 15.4 mpg, 2nd off the bench, got injured during the conference season. Morale crushed? Remains to be seen
Deonte Burton: 12.8 mpg, 4th off bench. Morale crushed? Remains to be seen
John Dawson: 10.6 mpg, with minutes increasing during conference play instead of decreasing. Morale crushed? Remains to be seen

Not really seeing anywhere where a freshmen's minutes should have been increased.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 29, 2014, 02:12:48 PM
I'm sure this is a pointless exercise but I was curious. Here is minutes and results of HS freshmen recruited by Buzz Williams:

Chris Otule: 6.7 mpg, got injured, eventually became a starter and solid rotation player. Morale crushed? NO
Liam McMorrow: Diagnosed with a heart condition. Never played. Became a role player at Tennesse Tech. Couldn't have gotten more minutes
Junior Cadougan: 3.9 mpg, was injured most of the season. Eventually became a starter. Morale crushed? NO
Jeronne Maymon: 16.3 mpg, 2nd player off the bench. Crazy father convinced him to transfer. Become a stud for Tennessee. Should he have gotten more minutes? Maybe
Erik Williams: 5.6 mpg, eventually transferred. Couldn't even crack Sam Houston State's roster. Should he have gotten more minutes? NO
Yous Mbao: 6 mpg, transferred to Marshall, still hasn't cracked their rotation. Should he have gotten more minutes? NO
Vander Blue: 19 mpg, 1st player off the bench. Eventually became a star and cracked and an NBA roster. Morale crushed? NO
Jamail Jones: 5.8 mpg, transferred to FGCU, and 2 years later he has become a solid starter for them. Should he have gotten more minutes? Maybe but probably not
Reggie Smith: 9.9 mpg, 3rd off the bench, transferred midseason to UNLV, couldn't crack their rotation, transferred to Eastern Illinois, became a great starter for them. Should he have gotten more minutes? Maybe but probably not (2 Buycks and Junior ahead of him)
Davante Gardner: 19.1 mpg, 2nd off the bench, become a beast and a starter. Moral crushed? NO
Juan Anderson: 4.5 mpg, last on the bench, became a role player. Morale crushed? NO
Derrick Wilson: 8.8 mpg, 4th off the bench, became a starter but maybe shouldn't have. Morale crushed? NO
Todd Mayo: 21.1 mpg, 1st off the bench, currently gets starters minutes. Morale crushed? NO
Steve Taylor: 8.6 mpg, his potential remains to be seen, should he have gotten more minutes? Debatable but hard to argue with an Elite 8
Jamal Ferguson: 4.6 mpg, transferred to North Carolina Central. Should he have gotten more minutes? Remains to be seen how good he is.
JaJuan Johnson: 15.4 mpg, 2nd off the bench, got injured during the conference season. Morale crushed? Remains to be seen
Deonte Burton: 12.8 mpg, 4th off bench. Morale crushed? Remains to be seen
John Dawson: 10.6 mpg, with minutes increasing during conference play instead of decreasing. Morale crushed? Remains to be seen

Not really seeing anywhere where a freshmen's minutes should have been increased.

This was a very pointless exercise...morale crushed? How would you know if their morale was crushed? I personally feel that Juan Anderson's morale is crushed. He looks like a wounded animal when he's playing.

Quote from: mubuzz on January 29, 2014, 02:34:45 PM
This was a very pointless exercise...morale crushed? How would you know if their morale was crushed? I personally feel that Juan Anderson's morale is crushed. He looks like a wounded animal when he's playing.

Really?  He was a top notch player until Buzz got a hold of him and crushed his morale?

Wacky.

Quote from: mubuzz on January 29, 2014, 02:34:45 PM
This was a very pointless exercise...morale crushed? How would you know if their morale was crushed? I personally feel that Juan Anderson's morale is crushed. He looks like a wounded animal when he's playing.

Morale crushed was something another poster said so I was countering it. Apparently, lack of playing time as a frosh=crushed morale=transfers. For me if a player didn't transfer and became a contributor, their morale was not crushed by this definition.

Seeing TAMU's list, the solution appears to be to recruit more JUCO's.

Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on January 29, 2014, 02:44:37 PM

Really?  He was a top notch player until Buzz got a hold of him and crushed his morale?

Wacky.

Was he not a top 100 recruit genius? You know what I find wacky? How you kept defending Derrick Wilson until you were proven to be dead wrong.

List re-ordered by how many minutes players got as a freshman (with current players bolded)

Todd Mayo: 21.1 mpg
Davante Gardner: 19.1 mpg
Vander Blue: 19 mpg
Jeronne Maymon: 16.3 mpg
JaJuan Johnson 15.4 mpg
Deonte Burton 12.8 mpg
John Dawson 10.6 mpg
Reggie Smith 9.9 mpg
Derrick Wilson 8.8 mpg
Steve Taylor 8.6 mpg
Chris Otule 6.7 mpg
Yous Mbao 6.0 mpg
Jamail Jones 5.8 mpg
Erik Williams 5.6 mpg
Jamal Ferguson 4.6 mpg
Juan Anderson 4.5 mpg
Junior Cadougan 3.9 mpg

So this year's freshmen are actually getting more minutes than Buzz usually gives freshmen.
If the amount of minutes that they are getting are "morale crushing" then why did then why did six of the freshmen who got less minutes then they did not transfer after their freshmen seasons, and all of them but Erik Williams stayed until they graduated (assuming Anderson and Taylor stay)?

The reality is that Buzz does not play freshmen for starter's minutes. Buzz is honest with his recruits about that. We have only lost four freshmen because of lack of playing time their freshmen season. Jeronne Maymom (who had a crazy father and ended up playing less minutes at his new school), Reggie Smith (who couldn't crack UNLV's rotation so he left for Eastern Illinois), Jamail Jones (who is now a starter for Florida Gulf Coast, hardly a major program) and Jamal Ferguson (North Carolina Central, hardly a major school).

Those worrying about transfers really shouldn't. There's nothing in our history to suggest that we lose out on quality player because of playing time freshmen year

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 29, 2014, 03:02:03 PM
List re-ordered by how many minutes players got as a freshman (with current players bolded)

Todd Mayo: 21.1 mpg
Davante Gardner: 19.1 mpg
Vander Blue: 19 mpg
Jeronne Maymon: 16.3 mpg
JaJuan Johnson 15.4 mpg
Deonte Burton 12.8 mpg
John Dawson 10.6 mpg
Reggie Smith 9.9 mpg
Derrick Wilson 8.8 mpg
Steve Taylor 8.6 mpg
Chris Otule 6.7 mpg
Yous Mbao 6.0 mpg
Jamail Jones 5.8 mpg
Erik Williams 5.6 mpg
Jamal Ferguson 4.6 mpg
Juan Anderson 4.5 mpg
Junior Cadougan 3.9 mpg

So this year's freshmen are actually getting more minutes than Buzz usually gives freshmen.
If the amount of minutes that they are getting are "morale crushing" then why did then why did six of the freshmen who got less minutes then they did not transfer after their freshmen seasons, and all of them but Erik Williams stayed until they graduated (assuming Anderson and Taylor stay)?

The reality is that Buzz does not play freshmen for starter's minutes. Buzz is honest with his recruits about that. We have only lost four freshmen because of lack of playing time their freshmen season. Jeronne Maymom (who had a crazy father and ended up playing less minutes at his new school), Reggie Smith (who couldn't crack UNLV's rotation so he left for Eastern Illinois), Jamail Jones (who is now a starter for Florida Gulf Coast, hardly a major program) and Jamal Ferguson (North Carolina Central, hardly a major school).

Those worrying about transfers really shouldn't. There's nothing in our history to suggest that we lose out on quality player because of playing time freshmen year

I generally agree with this, TAMU.

One thing it does not factor in, however, is the DNP-Coach's Decision.

JJJ supposedly is healthy now but he isn't playing. Getting a DNP does not bring down his mpg. Dawson didn't play even one second in several games. One could argue that their mpg stats are therefore skewed, at least somewhat.

Quote from: mubuzz on January 29, 2014, 03:00:28 PM
Was he not a top 100 recruit genius? You know what I find wacky? How you kept defending Derrick Wilson until you were proven to be dead wrong.

Oh...

Because every 100 recruit who doesn't live up to expectations is because his coach crushed his morale.  Furthermore, he has stuck with this morale crushing coach for three years. 

Wacky.

And I have yet to be proven wrong about Derrick Wilson.  He is at best an average point guard, but he is the best option available for Marquette.

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 29, 2014, 03:02:03 PM
List re-ordered by how many minutes players got as a freshman (with current players bolded)

Todd Mayo: 21.1 mpg
Davante Gardner: 19.1 mpg
Vander Blue: 19 mpg
Jeronne Maymon: 16.3 mpg
JaJuan Johnson 15.4 mpg
Deonte Burton 12.8 mpg
John Dawson 10.6 mpg
Reggie Smith 9.9 mpg
Derrick Wilson 8.8 mpg
Steve Taylor 8.6 mpg
Chris Otule 6.7 mpg
Yous Mbao 6.0 mpg
Jamail Jones 5.8 mpg
Erik Williams 5.6 mpg
Jamal Ferguson 4.6 mpg
Juan Anderson 4.5 mpg
Junior Cadougan 3.9 mpg

So this year's freshmen are actually getting more minutes than Buzz usually gives freshmen.
If the amount of minutes that they are getting are "morale crushing" then why did then why did six of the freshmen who got less minutes then they did not transfer after their freshmen seasons, and all of them but Erik Williams stayed until they graduated (assuming Anderson and Taylor stay)?

The reality is that Buzz does not play freshmen for starter's minutes. Buzz is honest with his recruits about that. We have only lost four freshmen because of lack of playing time their freshmen season. Jeronne Maymom (who had a crazy father and ended up playing less minutes at his new school), Reggie Smith (who couldn't crack UNLV's rotation so he left for Eastern Illinois), Jamail Jones (who is now a starter for Florida Gulf Coast, hardly a major program) and Jamal Ferguson (North Carolina Central, hardly a major school).

Those worrying about transfers really shouldn't. There's nothing in our history to suggest that we lose out on quality player because of playing time freshmen year

Thank you.  This is exactly what I have been arguing.  We have not lost a freshman who the collective Scoop thinks should have gotten more minutes than they did.  It may start next year.  It may not.

What people don't take into account is how much Buzz communicates with the players about their time and their role.  We assume that Dawson has had his "morale crushed" because he played so well against Georgetown, but didn't play much against Nova.  But we have no idea.  We don't know what Buzz told Dawson after the Georgetown game....we have no idea what he has said to him since the Nova game.

Buzz seems to be brutally honest with his players.  In fact that seems to be why Jameel left...Buzz told him what his role was going to be and he didn't like it.

We aren't in the locker room.  We have no idea.

Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on January 29, 2014, 03:23:55 PM

Oh...

Because every 100 recruit who doesn't live up to expectations is because his coach crushed his morale.  Furthermore, he has stuck with this morale crushing coach for three years. 

Wacky.

And I have yet to be proven wrong about Derrick Wilson.  He is at best an average point guard, but he is the best option available for Marquette.

Does Anderson not seem timid and lost on the court to you? He certainly doesn't seem to have a lot of self confidence out there to me. I'm not saying Buzz directly crushed his morale, but after being here for almost 3 years he has regressed into a complete non factor who has zero confidence in his game. You have been a leader of the pro Derrick crowd all season and he has proven to be highly ineffective. Your talent evaluation speaks for itself and you without a doubt have been proven wrong.

Quote from: mubuzz on January 29, 2014, 03:34:25 PM
Does Anderson not seem timid and lost on the court to you? He certainly doesn't seem to have a lot of self confidence out there to me. I'm not saying Buzz directly crushed his morale, but after being here for almost 3 years he has regressed into a complete non factor who has zero confidence in his game.

So in a thread about how Buzz crushes kid's morales, you say that "I personally feel that Juan Anderson's morale is crushed."

Yet you now claim that Buzz didn't directly crush it?  Good lord.  Illogical...and wacky.

He's probably disappointed in his college career.  He's not the first top 100 guy not to pan out.  Won't be the last.

Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on January 29, 2014, 03:42:12 PM

So in a thread about how Buzz crushes kid's morales, you say that "I personally feel that Juan Anderson's morale is crushed."

Yet you now claim that Buzz didn't directly crush it?  Good lord.  Illogical...and wacky.

He's probably disappointed in his college career.  He's not the first top 100 guy not to pan out.  Won't be the last.

Umm I know what I said genius...I do feel that his morale is crushed. So by Buzz not giving him playing time, that would be indirectly in my opinion. But you are the know everything, so I am probably wrong in your eyes. WACKY!!!!

Quote from: mubuzz on January 29, 2014, 04:13:33 PM
Umm I know what I said genius...I do feel that his morale is crushed. So by Buzz not giving him playing time, that would be indirectly in my opinion. But you are the know everything, so I am probably wrong in your eyes. WACKY!!!!

No.  Just make a logical argument.  It's not hard.

Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on January 29, 2014, 06:44:55 PM

No.  Just make a logical argument.  It's not hard.

For some people...

Christ we don't even know that his "morale is crushed," much less that Buzz is the source directly or indirectly. 

Way too many assumptions about how players feel, what their expectations are, etc.

Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on January 29, 2014, 03:30:11 PM

Thank you.  This is exactly what I have been arguing.  We have not lost a freshman who the collective Scoop thinks should have gotten more minutes than they did.  It may start next year.  It may not.

What people don't take into account is how much Buzz communicates with the players about their time and their role.  We assume that Dawson has had his "morale crushed" because he played so well against Georgetown, but didn't play much against Nova.  But we have no idea.  We don't know what Buzz told Dawson after the Georgetown game....we have no idea what he has said to him since the Nova game.

Buzz seems to be brutally honest with his players.  In fact that seems to be why Jameel left...Buzz told him what his role was going to be and he didn't like it.

We aren't in the locker room.  We have no idea.

dont blame jameel for leaving.... who wants to sit on the bench for a team thats gonna finish .500 or below... due to upper classmen loyalty..

Quote from: Nevada233 on January 29, 2014, 08:07:07 PM
dont blame jameel for leaving.... who wants to sit on the bench for a team thats gonna finish .500 or below... due to upper classmen loyalty..

Well if a guy has trouble sitting behind guys who are better than they are, they shouldn't be here.

At the Halloween scrimmage, Anderson looked awesome - like he had a higher motor / gear than the rest of players on the floor.  I was really excited for what I thought then was a breakout year for Anderson.

Instead, he looks like a like a shell of himself now...   something happened...

Quote from: mubuzz on January 29, 2014, 03:34:25 PM
Does Anderson not seem timid and lost on the court to you? He certainly doesn't seem to have a lot of self confidence out there to me. I'm not saying Buzz directly crushed his morale, but after being here for almost 3 years he has regressed into a complete non factor who has zero confidence in his game. You have been a leader of the pro Derrick crowd all season and he has proven to be highly ineffective. Your talent evaluation speaks for itself and you without a doubt have been proven wrong.

Quote from: madtownwarrior on January 29, 2014, 08:15:07 PM
At the Halloween scrimmage, Anderson looked awesome - like he had a higher motor / gear than the rest of players on the floor.  I was really excited for what I thought then was a breakout year for Anderson.

Instead, he looks like a like a shell of himself now...   something happened...

He probably read what fans were writing about him on scoop

Quote from: madtownwarrior on January 29, 2014, 08:15:07 PM
At the Halloween scrimmage, Anderson looked awesome - like he had a higher motor / gear than the rest of players on the floor.  I was really excited for what I thought then was a breakout year for Anderson.

Instead, he looks like a like a shell of himself now...   something happened...

Juan doesnt look good on offense or defense.  At all

Juan is really no different than he was in previous years.  Just playing a little bit more.  I thought he was going to take another step, but he hasn't. 

Quote from: Nevada233 on January 29, 2014, 08:07:07 PM
dont blame jameel for leaving.... who wants to sit on the bench for a team thats gonna finish .500 or below... due to upper classmen loyalty..

This is awesome. Kid can predict wins/losses before a season starts? Shouldn't be playing basketball, should be playing the lottery.

Quote from: madtownwarrior on January 29, 2014, 08:15:07 PM
At the Halloween scrimmage, Anderson looked awesome - like he had a higher motor / gear than the rest of players on the floor.  I was really excited for what I thought then was a breakout year for Anderson.

Instead, he looks like a like a shell of himself now...   something happened...

Could the "something happened" be turning his ankle coming down from a dunk against Ball St. or IUPUI (can't remember which)? I don't know, but he hasn't looked the same to me since.

Also, he was on twitter all day yesterday and at the AL calling season ticket holders trying to drum up support for the Providence game. I doubt his "morale is crushed."

Quote from: TAMU Eagle on January 29, 2014, 08:19:36 PM
He probably read what fans were writing about him on scoop

Any Player with an MUScoop account besides maybe Dylan Flood would be doing a huuuuge poisoning to themselves. 

Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on January 29, 2014, 01:51:06 PM
Just call Buzz and ask for a copy of the game plan for Providence.

How can everyone be so certain that MU players get PT based on sticking to the gameplan yet those that say that don't know what the gameplan is nor has Buzz ever explicitly confirmed this assertion.

Yes, I'm sure PT is based in part on that, but a lot of you are making it sound like it's the predominate reason for playing someone or relegating them to the bench. It's an overly simplistic argument that really doesn't account for the many variables that (I hope) Buzz considers in his substitutions.

Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on January 29, 2014, 08:13:25 PM

Well if a guy has trouble sitting behind guys who are better than they are, they shouldn't be here.

What about when it's a debate about who's better that's divided MU nation. You can't tell me that Dawson doesn't read these boards or that he's not thinking or hearing a lot of the same things we're discussing. The facts are, is that it is a legitimate debate about who is better for this team's success, and Buzz hasn't even given Dawson the chance to compete for PT. That's what's going to piss off recruits and under classmen.

Quote from: windyplayer on January 30, 2014, 09:25:22 AM
How can everyone be so certain that MU players get PT based on sticking to the gameplan yet those that say that don't know what the gameplan is nor has Buzz ever explicitly confirmed this assertion.

Yes, I'm sure PT is based in part on that, but a lot of you are making it sound like it's the predominate reason for playing someone or relegating them to the bench. It's an overly simplistic argument that really doesn't account for the many variables that (I hope) Buzz considers in his substitutions.

When I make comments about the gameplan and playing time, it's because I see/hear Buzz saying that Derrick and especially Jake play exactly to the gameplan/scouting report. If those two are getting the most minutes, I'm making an assumption that those two variables are tied together.

Quote from: jesmu84 on January 30, 2014, 11:49:34 AM
When I make comments about the gameplan and playing time, it's because I see/hear Buzz saying that Derrick and especially Jake play exactly to the gameplan/scouting report. If those two are getting the most minutes, I'm making an assumption that those two variables are tied together.

How can you play EXACTLY to the gameplan yet be so bad. Buzz must have terrible gameplans.

Was it in the gameplan to get torched by Archidiacono or dribble around the perimeter and hold the ball until the shotclock gets to under 10?

Quote from: windyplayer on January 30, 2014, 01:45:24 PM
How can you play EXACTLY to the gameplan yet be so bad. Buzz must have terrible gameplans.

Was it in the gameplan to get torched by Archidiacono or dribble around the perimeter and hold the ball until the shotclock gets to under 10?

You can do what Buzz asks you to do. That's all. If you make a mistake within the framework of what he asks, I'm pretty sure he's more forgiving than if you work outside of that construct.

If Derrick followed the gameplan on Archie, but got beat, Buzz clearly didn't mind. If Derrick followed the gameplan on offense, but held the ball till under 10, Buzz clearly didn't mind. (Horrible hyperbole on your part though)

Quote from: jesmu84 on January 30, 2014, 01:50:57 PM
You can do what Buzz asks you to do. That's all. If you make a mistake within the framework of what he asks, I'm pretty sure he's more forgiving than if you work outside of that construct.

If Derrick followed the gameplan on Archie, but got beat, Buzz clearly didn't mind. If Derrick followed the gameplan on offense, but held the ball till under 10, Buzz clearly didn't mind. (Horrible hyperbole on your part though)

Yes, obviously, it's hyperbole, but the point is: don't you think Buzz puts a little too much emphasis on the gameplan to the team's detriment? I'm sure Dawson and Co. play within the gameplan apart from the occasional lapse (we're not talking about guys making a streetball mixtape despite Buzz's pleas). I'd rather let those guys work it out than yank them on a short leash and put less talented guys who stick to the "gameplan."

Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on January 29, 2014, 09:10:07 PM
Juan is really no different than he was in previous years.  Just playing a little bit more.  I thought he was going to take another step, but he hasn't. 

Juan can still be a big contributor to this program. Hopefully he spends all summer  shooting 3s in the gym and all of next season shooting 3s in games with confidence. He's got decent stroke already.

Quote from: Nevada233 on January 29, 2014, 08:07:07 PM
dont blame jameel for leaving.... who wants to sit on the bench for a team thats gonna finish .500 or below... due to upper classmen loyalty..

You do realize that Jameel would have been a junior this year, right?  Pretty sure that's the same class as Derrick....

Quote from: windyplayer on January 30, 2014, 01:45:24 PM

Was it in the gameplan to get torched by Archidiacono or dribble around the perimeter and hold the ball until the shotclock gets to under 10?

This was the turning point for me with our guard play this season.

In overtime with the game on the line, Buzz didn't have the confidence in our "elite" defender to put him on the other team's PG. Why - because he was having by far his best game of the season going against our elite defender. Just as the PGs from ASU, G'town,Xavier, SDSU did.


Ners may get off target and he is relentless in his posts, but a landslide majority of people posting here agree as to who should be playing the most minutes at PG.

Quote from: brandx on January 30, 2014, 04:12:05 PM
This was the turning point for me with our guard play this season.

In overtime with the game on the line, Buzz didn't have the confidence in our "elite" defender to put him on the other team's PG. Why - because he was having by far his best game of the season going against our elite defender. Just as the PGs from ASU, G'town,Xavier, SDSU did.


Ners may get off target and he is relentless in his posts, but a landslide majority of people posting here agree as to who should be playing the most minutes at PG.

1. Or, Buzz saw Derrick get beat on the last play of regulation and realized how tired he was. So he put fresher legs (Mayo) on archie.
2. I've long said that Derrick/Dawson should get 20/20 depending on matchups, "hot"ness, etc.