Dawson's Defense and Playing Time

[jesmu84]

Fine, but I don't think that Dawson straying away from the gameplan occasionally warrants riding the pine for as much as he does. I can guarantee you that the kid is working hard at staying on the floor and Buzz is crushing this kid's morale by continuing to pull him on every whim.

By all means, if there's compelling and consistent evidence of Dawson straying away from the gameplan more so than other players that get way more minutes than him, then please provide it.

Fair enough. You're entitled to your thoughts just as I am. I'm making some extrapolations from what Buzz has said combined with Derrick and Dawson's minutes to this point.

Buzz seems to have treated just about every underclass player the same throughout his tenure, so Buzz might be "crushing" Dawson's morale, but it's worked out pretty well for us so far.

I don't have "compelling and consistent evidence", mostly because I don't know what Buzz's gameplans are in each game or each situation. And neither do you. We just have to accept this is Buzz's preference for the situation and he has his reasons. You can continue to disagree with all of it, that's fine. I will continue to question it as well, but I accept that Buzz is a smarter basketball mind than mine.

[NersEllenson]

Fair enough. You're entitled to your thoughts just as I am. I'm making some extrapolations from what Buzz has said combined with Derrick and Dawson's minutes to this point.

Buzz seems to have treated just about every underclass player the same throughout his tenure, so Buzz might be "crushing" Dawson's morale, but it's worked out pretty well for us so far.

I don't have "compelling and consistent evidence", mostly because I don't know what Buzz's gameplans are in each game or each situation. And neither do you. We just have to accept this is Buzz's preference for the situation and he has his reasons. You can continue to disagree with all of it, that's fine. I will continue to question it as well, but I accept that Buzz is a smarter basketball mind than mine.

You know, I'm not so sure it's worked out very well thus far with the high school players Buzz has brought in.  As I reflect, I'd say Vander, Junior, Gardner, Todd have been the 4 guys who have had productive careers coming from high school ranks. 

For as bad as Vander was as a freshman, it's amazing Buzz stuck with him like he did - and I'd say that ultimately ended up paying off for Buzz/MU.  The difference in remaining die hard loyal to guys like Derrick and Jake are that they are in their 3rd and 5th year of college ball - if the results aren't there by now...

I just know it sucks to play the game of basketball and be worried that if you screw up so much as once in the first two minutes of game action, that you have a 95% chance of getting yanked - makes the game that much harder to play, as you aren't playing relaxed.  Every player wants to stay on the court for as long as they can - shouldn't have the fear of getting pulled in a matter of 2 minutes.  Todd dealt with that all of last year, and Dawson is dealing with it this year.

[GGGG]

Fine, but I don't think that Dawson straying away from the gameplan occasionally warrants riding the pine for as much as he does. I can guarantee you that the kid is working hard at staying on the floor and Buzz is crushing this kid's morale by continuing to pull him on every whim.

Do you really think he is pulling Dawson "on every whim?"  No.  He is pulling him when he makes repeated mistakes on the defensive end of the floor.  

[GGGG]

You know, I'm not so sure it's worked out very well thus far with the high school players Buzz has brought in.  As I reflect, I'd say Vander, Junior, Gardner, Todd have been the 4 guys who have had productive careers coming from high school ranks. 

Name one player who you think should have played, but hasn't and had their "morale crushed" as a result?

Seriously, how many players here *should* have played earlier than they actually did?  Buzz plays freshmen when they produce on the court...Vander...Todd...Davante.  Buzz doesn't have a history of ignoring talented freshmen for the sake of it.

[NersEllenson]

Name one player who you think should have played, but hasn't and had their "morale crushed" as a result?

Seriously, how many players here *should* have played earlier than they actually did?  Buzz plays freshmen when they produce on the court...Vander...Todd...Davante.  Buzz doesn't have a history of ignoring talented freshmen for the sake of it.

John Dawson.  Deonte Burton.  JJJ.  Perhaps morale not "crushed" - but to sit behind guys who aren't nearly as talented, combined with the team losing games....not great for morale.

Can't imagine how this team might look if Buzz gave Dawson and Burton the same slack and leash he gave Vander as a freshman...because Vander was AWFUL as a freshman and to deny otherwise is foolish.  Vander had the benefit of coming into the program when there wasn't much depth...so that in and of itself gave him a longer leash.

[Goose]

Sultan

Are you watching other games than MU on TV? Freshmen are playing across the country and being difference makers. I am not saying just top 10 guys, but dozens across the country. Not playing freshmen is stupid and could bite Buzz in the ass down the road.

[GGGG]

John Dawson.  Deonte Burton.  JJJ.  Perhaps morale not "crushed" - but to sit behind guys who aren't nearly as talented, combined with the team losing games....not great for morale.

Great circular argument.

You: Our current freshmen are getting their morale crushed
Me: Name one time this has happened before
You: Our current freshman

[GGGG]

Sultan

Are you watching other games than MU on TV? Freshmen are playing across the country and being difference makers. I am not saying just top 10 guys, but dozens across the country. Not playing freshmen is stupid and could bite Buzz in the ass down the road.

Other places aren't Marquette.  Each situation has to be evaluated on its own.

Again, how is it going to "bite his ass?"

[NersEllenson]

Other places aren't Marquette.  Each situation has to be evaluated on its own.

Again, how is it going to "bite his ass?"

Yeah - Other schools aren't Marquette. They are playing some of their freshman and certainly aren't sitting them behind guys who have made 1 3pt shot in the equivalent of 14.65 full games and one two point shot every 7 full games. And these are your guards numbers!!  Not you bigs. It's beyond ridiculous.

[ecompt]

I think at this point it comes down to finding out if Dawson can be the long-term point guard. We know what we will forever get from Derrick, and it isn't enough to get this team going. There's no way Derrick improves enough heading into his senior year to run the team next season. With this season just about shot, give Dawson the ball and possibly give us some hope for the future. If he can't do it, what do we lose?

[GGGG]

Yeah - Other schools aren't Marquette. They are playing some of their freshman and certainly aren't sitting them behind guys who have made 1 3pt shot in the equivalent of 14.65 full games and one two point shot every 7 full games. And these are your guards numbers!!  Not you bigs. It's beyond ridiculous.

I think you should start a topic about this.  Surely it hasn't been discussed in as great a detail as it should be.

[4everwarriors]

Ya knows its bad when Cadougan now looks like the second comin' of Chris Paul.

[Lennys Tap]

Yeah - Other schools aren't Marquette. They are playing some of their freshman and certainly aren't sitting them behind guys who have made 1 3pt shot in the equivalent of 14.65 full games and one two point shot every 7 full games. And these are your guards numbers!!  Not you bigs. It's beyond ridiculous.

You know what's beyond ridiculous? People have been awarded PHDs based on dissertations shorter in length than the one you've composed on Derrick in your hundreds of posts. Isn't there another dead horse somewhere you'd like to beat on?

[Wojo'sMojo]

Other places aren't Marquette.  Each situation has to be evaluated on its own.

Again, how is it going to "bite his ass?"

We are 11-9. If that doesn't merit a shakeup I don't know what does. I think it's going to bite him in the ass because other schools are going to point out to recruits that we are a crappy team and still don't give our talented freshman playing time. I would take an extra loss or two to give our future some game experience...does it really matter what our record is if we aren't going to the tourney? Doesn't to me!

[ATL MU Warrior]

Fine, but I don't think that Dawson straying away from the gameplan occasionally warrants riding the pine for as much as he does. I can guarantee you that the kid is working hard at staying on the floor and Buzz is crushing this kid's morale by continuing to pull him on every whim.

By all means, if there's compelling and consistent evidence of Dawson straying away from the gameplan more so than other players that get way more minutes than him, then please provide it.

Just call Buzz and ask for a copy of the game plan for Providence.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I'm sure this is a pointless exercise but I was curious. Here is minutes and results of HS freshmen recruited by Buzz Williams:

Chris Otule: 6.7 mpg, got injured, eventually became a starter and solid rotation player. Morale crushed? NO
Liam McMorrow: Diagnosed with a heart condition. Never played. Became a role player at Tennesse Tech. Couldn't have gotten more minutes
Junior Cadougan: 3.9 mpg, was injured most of the season. Eventually became a starter. Morale crushed? NO
Jeronne Maymon: 16.3 mpg, 2nd player off the bench. Crazy father convinced him to transfer. Become a stud for Tennessee. Should he have gotten more minutes? Maybe
Erik Williams: 5.6 mpg, eventually transferred. Couldn't even crack Sam Houston State's roster. Should he have gotten more minutes? NO
Yous Mbao: 6 mpg, transferred to Marshall, still hasn't cracked their rotation. Should he have gotten more minutes? NO
Vander Blue: 19 mpg, 1st player off the bench. Eventually became a star and cracked and an NBA roster. Morale crushed? NO
Jamail Jones: 5.8 mpg, transferred to FGCU, and 2 years later he has become a solid starter for them. Should he have gotten more minutes? Maybe but probably not
Reggie Smith: 9.9 mpg, 3rd off the bench, transferred midseason to UNLV, couldn't crack their rotation, transferred to Eastern Illinois, became a great starter for them. Should he have gotten more minutes? Maybe but probably not (2 Buycks and Junior ahead of him)
Davante Gardner: 19.1 mpg, 2nd off the bench, become a beast and a starter. Moral crushed? NO
Juan Anderson: 4.5 mpg, last on the bench, became a role player. Morale crushed? NO
Derrick Wilson: 8.8 mpg, 4th off the bench, became a starter but maybe shouldn't have. Morale crushed? NO
Todd Mayo: 21.1 mpg, 1st off the bench, currently gets starters minutes. Morale crushed? NO
Steve Taylor: 8.6 mpg, his potential remains to be seen, should he have gotten more minutes? Debatable but hard to argue with an Elite 8
Jamal Ferguson: 4.6 mpg, transferred to North Carolina Central. Should he have gotten more minutes? Remains to be seen how good he is.
JaJuan Johnson: 15.4 mpg, 2nd off the bench, got injured during the conference season. Morale crushed? Remains to be seen
Deonte Burton: 12.8 mpg, 4th off bench. Morale crushed? Remains to be seen
John Dawson: 10.6 mpg, with minutes increasing during conference play instead of decreasing. Morale crushed? Remains to be seen

Not really seeing anywhere where a freshmen's minutes should have been increased.

[Wojo'sMojo]

I'm sure this is a pointless exercise but I was curious. Here is minutes and results of HS freshmen recruited by Buzz Williams:

Chris Otule: 6.7 mpg, got injured, eventually became a starter and solid rotation player. Morale crushed? NO
Liam McMorrow: Diagnosed with a heart condition. Never played. Became a role player at Tennesse Tech. Couldn't have gotten more minutes
Junior Cadougan: 3.9 mpg, was injured most of the season. Eventually became a starter. Morale crushed? NO
Jeronne Maymon: 16.3 mpg, 2nd player off the bench. Crazy father convinced him to transfer. Become a stud for Tennessee. Should he have gotten more minutes? Maybe
Erik Williams: 5.6 mpg, eventually transferred. Couldn't even crack Sam Houston State's roster. Should he have gotten more minutes? NO
Yous Mbao: 6 mpg, transferred to Marshall, still hasn't cracked their rotation. Should he have gotten more minutes? NO
Vander Blue: 19 mpg, 1st player off the bench. Eventually became a star and cracked and an NBA roster. Morale crushed? NO
Jamail Jones: 5.8 mpg, transferred to FGCU, and 2 years later he has become a solid starter for them. Should he have gotten more minutes? Maybe but probably not
Reggie Smith: 9.9 mpg, 3rd off the bench, transferred midseason to UNLV, couldn't crack their rotation, transferred to Eastern Illinois, became a great starter for them. Should he have gotten more minutes? Maybe but probably not (2 Buycks and Junior ahead of him)
Davante Gardner: 19.1 mpg, 2nd off the bench, become a beast and a starter. Moral crushed? NO
Juan Anderson: 4.5 mpg, last on the bench, became a role player. Morale crushed? NO
Derrick Wilson: 8.8 mpg, 4th off the bench, became a starter but maybe shouldn't have. Morale crushed? NO
Todd Mayo: 21.1 mpg, 1st off the bench, currently gets starters minutes. Morale crushed? NO
Steve Taylor: 8.6 mpg, his potential remains to be seen, should he have gotten more minutes? Debatable but hard to argue with an Elite 8
Jamal Ferguson: 4.6 mpg, transferred to North Carolina Central. Should he have gotten more minutes? Remains to be seen how good he is.
JaJuan Johnson: 15.4 mpg, 2nd off the bench, got injured during the conference season. Morale crushed? Remains to be seen
Deonte Burton: 12.8 mpg, 4th off bench. Morale crushed? Remains to be seen
John Dawson: 10.6 mpg, with minutes increasing during conference play instead of decreasing. Morale crushed? Remains to be seen

Not really seeing anywhere where a freshmen's minutes should have been increased.

This was a very pointless exercise...morale crushed? How would you know if their morale was crushed? I personally feel that Juan Anderson's morale is crushed. He looks like a wounded animal when he's playing.

[GGGG]

This was a very pointless exercise...morale crushed? How would you know if their morale was crushed? I personally feel that Juan Anderson's morale is crushed. He looks like a wounded animal when he's playing.

Really?  He was a top notch player until Buzz got a hold of him and crushed his morale?

Wacky.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

This was a very pointless exercise...morale crushed? How would you know if their morale was crushed? I personally feel that Juan Anderson's morale is crushed. He looks like a wounded animal when he's playing.

Morale crushed was something another poster said so I was countering it. Apparently, lack of playing time as a frosh=crushed morale=transfers. For me if a player didn't transfer and became a contributor, their morale was not crushed by this definition.

[tower912]

Seeing TAMU's list, the solution appears to be to recruit more JUCO's.

[Wojo'sMojo]

Really?  He was a top notch player until Buzz got a hold of him and crushed his morale?

Wacky.

Was he not a top 100 recruit genius? You know what I find wacky? How you kept defending Derrick Wilson until you were proven to be dead wrong.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

List re-ordered by how many minutes players got as a freshman (with current players bolded)

Todd Mayo: 21.1 mpg
Davante Gardner: 19.1 mpg
Vander Blue: 19 mpg
Jeronne Maymon: 16.3 mpg
JaJuan Johnson 15.4 mpg
Deonte Burton 12.8 mpg
John Dawson 10.6 mpg
Reggie Smith 9.9 mpg
Derrick Wilson 8.8 mpg
Steve Taylor 8.6 mpg
Chris Otule 6.7 mpg
Yous Mbao 6.0 mpg
Jamail Jones 5.8 mpg
Erik Williams 5.6 mpg
Jamal Ferguson 4.6 mpg
Juan Anderson 4.5 mpg
Junior Cadougan 3.9 mpg

So this year's freshmen are actually getting more minutes than Buzz usually gives freshmen.
If the amount of minutes that they are getting are "morale crushing" then why did then why did six of the freshmen who got less minutes then they did not transfer after their freshmen seasons, and all of them but Erik Williams stayed until they graduated (assuming Anderson and Taylor stay)?

The reality is that Buzz does not play freshmen for starter's minutes. Buzz is honest with his recruits about that. We have only lost four freshmen because of lack of playing time their freshmen season. Jeronne Maymom (who had a crazy father and ended up playing less minutes at his new school), Reggie Smith (who couldn't crack UNLV's rotation so he left for Eastern Illinois), Jamail Jones (who is now a starter for Florida Gulf Coast, hardly a major program) and Jamal Ferguson (North Carolina Central, hardly a major school).

Those worrying about transfers really shouldn't. There's nothing in our history to suggest that we lose out on quality player because of playing time freshmen year

[MU82]

List re-ordered by how many minutes players got as a freshman (with current players bolded)

Todd Mayo: 21.1 mpg
Davante Gardner: 19.1 mpg
Vander Blue: 19 mpg
Jeronne Maymon: 16.3 mpg
JaJuan Johnson 15.4 mpg
Deonte Burton 12.8 mpg
John Dawson 10.6 mpg
Reggie Smith 9.9 mpg
Derrick Wilson 8.8 mpg
Steve Taylor 8.6 mpg
Chris Otule 6.7 mpg
Yous Mbao 6.0 mpg
Jamail Jones 5.8 mpg
Erik Williams 5.6 mpg
Jamal Ferguson 4.6 mpg
Juan Anderson 4.5 mpg
Junior Cadougan 3.9 mpg

So this year's freshmen are actually getting more minutes than Buzz usually gives freshmen.
If the amount of minutes that they are getting are "morale crushing" then why did then why did six of the freshmen who got less minutes then they did not transfer after their freshmen seasons, and all of them but Erik Williams stayed until they graduated (assuming Anderson and Taylor stay)?

The reality is that Buzz does not play freshmen for starter's minutes. Buzz is honest with his recruits about that. We have only lost four freshmen because of lack of playing time their freshmen season. Jeronne Maymom (who had a crazy father and ended up playing less minutes at his new school), Reggie Smith (who couldn't crack UNLV's rotation so he left for Eastern Illinois), Jamail Jones (who is now a starter for Florida Gulf Coast, hardly a major program) and Jamal Ferguson (North Carolina Central, hardly a major school).

Those worrying about transfers really shouldn't. There's nothing in our history to suggest that we lose out on quality player because of playing time freshmen year

I generally agree with this, TAMU.

One thing it does not factor in, however, is the DNP-Coach's Decision.

JJJ supposedly is healthy now but he isn't playing. Getting a DNP does not bring down his mpg. Dawson didn't play even one second in several games. One could argue that their mpg stats are therefore skewed, at least somewhat.

[GGGG]

Was he not a top 100 recruit genius? You know what I find wacky? How you kept defending Derrick Wilson until you were proven to be dead wrong.

Oh...

Because every 100 recruit who doesn't live up to expectations is because his coach crushed his morale.  Furthermore, he has stuck with this morale crushing coach for three years. 

Wacky.

And I have yet to be proven wrong about Derrick Wilson.  He is at best an average point guard, but he is the best option available for Marquette.

[GGGG]

List re-ordered by how many minutes players got as a freshman (with current players bolded)

Todd Mayo: 21.1 mpg
Davante Gardner: 19.1 mpg
Vander Blue: 19 mpg
Jeronne Maymon: 16.3 mpg
JaJuan Johnson 15.4 mpg
Deonte Burton 12.8 mpg
John Dawson 10.6 mpg
Reggie Smith 9.9 mpg
Derrick Wilson 8.8 mpg
Steve Taylor 8.6 mpg
Chris Otule 6.7 mpg
Yous Mbao 6.0 mpg
Jamail Jones 5.8 mpg
Erik Williams 5.6 mpg
Jamal Ferguson 4.6 mpg
Juan Anderson 4.5 mpg
Junior Cadougan 3.9 mpg

So this year's freshmen are actually getting more minutes than Buzz usually gives freshmen.
If the amount of minutes that they are getting are "morale crushing" then why did then why did six of the freshmen who got less minutes then they did not transfer after their freshmen seasons, and all of them but Erik Williams stayed until they graduated (assuming Anderson and Taylor stay)?

The reality is that Buzz does not play freshmen for starter's minutes. Buzz is honest with his recruits about that. We have only lost four freshmen because of lack of playing time their freshmen season. Jeronne Maymom (who had a crazy father and ended up playing less minutes at his new school), Reggie Smith (who couldn't crack UNLV's rotation so he left for Eastern Illinois), Jamail Jones (who is now a starter for Florida Gulf Coast, hardly a major program) and Jamal Ferguson (North Carolina Central, hardly a major school).

Those worrying about transfers really shouldn't. There's nothing in our history to suggest that we lose out on quality player because of playing time freshmen year

Thank you.  This is exactly what I have been arguing.  We have not lost a freshman who the collective Scoop thinks should have gotten more minutes than they did.  It may start next year.  It may not.

What people don't take into account is how much Buzz communicates with the players about their time and their role.  We assume that Dawson has had his "morale crushed" because he played so well against Georgetown, but didn't play much against Nova.  But we have no idea.  We don't know what Buzz told Dawson after the Georgetown game....we have no idea what he has said to him since the Nova game.

Buzz seems to be brutally honest with his players.  In fact that seems to be why Jameel left...Buzz told him what his role was going to be and he didn't like it.

We aren't in the locker room.  We have no idea.