Dawson's Defense and Playing Time

[AirPunches]

Buzz should have made changes in the lineup early in the season. He did not. It's too late now and I think the team should play out this season as they have been. Making any drastic changes at the point wouldn't be good for team moral.

[4th and State]

Buzz should have made changes in the lineup early in the season. He did not. It's too late now and I think the team should play out this season as they have been. Making any drastic changes at the point wouldn't be good for team moral.

Why is it too late now?  Still a lot of time for the young guys to develop and still make a run in the BE Tourney.  If anything, do it now while there is still time and save the season and my sanity.  I think we've already hit the ceiling on the Thomas/Wilson combo and I really don't know what it is going to take for Buzz to cut their minutes.

[madtownwarrior]

Buzz should have made changes in the lineup early in the season. He did not. It's too late now and I think the team should play out this season as they have been. Making any drastic changes at the point wouldn't be good for team moral.

As opposed to moral building of the rest of the team watching from the bench as less talented players pile up losses and miss the NCAA tourney...

[jesmu84]

One good thing about your analysis - the smaller the sampling, the easier to prove a point.

No one as yet has had any explanation for why our great defensive player wasn't guarding the guy going off in OT - even tho they were both point guards. This is the point I will bring up whenever you guys talk about DW's defense and Dawson's lack of it.

Obviously, Buzz lacks confidence in Derrick's defense.

Just another possibility...

Buzz put Mayo on Archie because Mayo had fresher legs. Something Buzz noticed big time on the last play in regulation (Derrick got burned). One of the reasons I don't want Derrick or Dawson playing 30+ is b/c of fatigue, but physical and mental. I actually wish Dawson would have played 15 against Nova.

[jesmu84]

There are so many things wrong with those stats in attempting to valdiate your positition. But you seem bright enough to know what they are so I'll save myself a minute or two.

Generally, the frustating thing about this is that we've seen what Dawson is capable of in short stints and for the most part is pretty promising. Wilson has played and played...and lost and lost. Why not give Dawson a chance to lose a few games. Not even Buzz knows what Dawson would do if he was given 30 minutes on the floor. I don't know what Buzz's motives are and he may very well start playing Dawson more down the stretch and Dawson may play well. But that doesn't mean Buzz did his job--he should be questioned for why he didn't make the move so much more earlier in the season when the team still had a puncher's chance at the tourney. 

The point is, I want to see Dawson lose a game with 30 mintues under his belt.

I think the facts at hand clearly point to Buzz believing Derrick gives the team the best chance to win in every game.

If Dawson does play more and does win down the road, I don't think there should be any questioning of Buzz over not playing him more earlier. Derrick has probably only improved slightly over the last 3 months while Dawson has likely taken leaps in that department. So, Dawson now or in a month would be completely different from Dawson in November.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Yes, Buzz is above all criticism and no one should question his coaching style ever (a few ignoble world leaders would love you as their pawn). I see what Wilson does in games and what Dawson does in games. I don't care what they do in practice--I'm sure Dawson isn't lying on the practice floor refusing to practice. And if Buzz's primary motive is to win games then why suspend anyone ever, or take out a talented player for making a mistake, etc. It's been said here before, but sometimes, I don't think Buzz puts as much emphasis on winning as he should. And I'm by no means want Wilson banished--he's a solid backup to come off the bench and give us 10 minutes (maybe then we'll see his true defensive prowess from last year when he's not winded from going up and down the court for 30 minutes).

It is not that Buzz is above criticism. No one has said that EVER. Love that you compared him to an "ignoble world leader" btw. We just recognize and accept that we as fans only have a limited amount of data by which to judge Dawson, (the few minutes he plays in games). Buzz has BOOKS full of data on Dawson. Not only that, but Buzz has the equivalent of a basketball PHD, while most of us fans don't even have an associate degree. (Sorry Ners, I know you played pickup basketball with the team in the early 90s. So I'll say you took a weekend seminar on basketball). So not only does Buzz have more data than us, but he is better at interpreting the data.

So no, Buzz is not beyond reproach. Not even close. But when it comes down to listening to bunch of angry fans screaming on the internet or listening to a decorated head coach....I'm gonna listen to the decorated head coach

[mu03eng]

It is not that Buzz is above criticism. No one has said that EVER. Love that you compared him to an "ignoble world leader" btw. We just recognize and accept that we as fans only have a limited amount of data by which to judge Dawson, (the few minutes he plays in games). Buzz has BOOKS full of data on Dawson. Not only that, but Buzz has the equivalent of a basketball PHD, while most of us fans don't even have an associate degree. (Sorry Ners, I know you played pickup basketball with the team in the early 90s. So I'll say you took a weekend seminar on basketball). So not only does Buzz have more data than us, but he is better at interpreting the data.

So no, Buzz is not beyond reproach. Not even close. But when it comes down to listening to bunch of angry fans screaming on the internet or listening to a decorated head coach....I'm gonna listen to the decorated head coach

Not to mention that Buzz has the Sport VU system so literally all the possible statistical data on in-game performance as opposed to eye tests and admittedly vague remembrances of who was guarding who and when

[brandx]

Just another possibility...

Buzz put Mayo on Archie because Mayo had fresher legs. Something Buzz noticed big time on the last play in regulation (Derrick got burned). One of the reasons I don't want Derrick or Dawson playing 30+ is b/c of fatigue, but physical and mental. I actually wish Dawson would have played 15 against Nova.

I enjoy arguing with you because you usually make good points. I think we can agree that Derrick is playing 30+ minutes because Buzz trusts him on defense (obviously not for what he does on the offensive end), but doesn't Derrick lose his value on the floor completely if he is not involved in the defense at all. In OT, he simply played straight up on one of their 3-point shooters away from the hoop and provided no help defense as Archi drove time after time into the lane. John could just as easily have stood 25' from the basket on defense and given us more on offense.

[Windyplayer]

It is not that Buzz is above criticism. No one has said that EVER. Love that you compared him to an "ignoble world leader" btw. We just recognize and accept that we as fans only have a limited amount of data by which to judge Dawson, (the few minutes he plays in games). Buzz has BOOKS full of data on Dawson. Not only that, but Buzz has the equivalent of a basketball PHD, while most of us fans don't even have an associate degree. (Sorry Ners, I know you played pickup basketball with the team in the early 90s. So I'll say you took a weekend seminar on basketball). So not only does Buzz have more data than us, but he is better at interpreting the data.

So no, Buzz is not beyond reproach. Not even close. But when it comes down to listening to bunch of angry fans screaming on the internet or listening to a decorated head coach....I'm gonna listen to the decorated head coach

I see your point. But your premise at the beginning of your post starts to unravel as you talk about all of these resources Buzz's consults in making his determinations and that they're far beyond anything we take into account with regard to the Dawson/Wilson debate--no argument there. But his access to these resources does not put him above reproach in this ongoing debate.  Even with all this data, Buzz needs to convert it into information and make a human decision based on it. So, my argument is that Buzz may have all of this information, but I think he's still making the wrong decision. And I can't imagine that there's a lot of statisticall information to go off of for Dawson who has pretty much played sparingly thus far. I just want to see Dawson play a few 25 minute games and then start crunching the numbers between the two. Taking little 2, 3, 4, or 5 minute stretches with Dawson on the floor and adding them up to 25 to comprise a game is not fair to Dawson--if indeed Buzz is going off of raw numbers.  

[Windyplayer]

Love that you compared him to an "ignoble world leader" btw.

No, only one of their followers.

[ATL MU Warrior]

I enjoy arguing with you because you usually make good points. I think we can agree that Derrick is playing 30+ minutes because Buzz trusts him on defense (obviously not for what he does on the offensive end), but doesn't Derrick lose his value on the floor completely if he is not involved in the defense at all. In OT, he simply played straight up on one of their 3-point shooters away from the hoop and provided no help defense as Archi drove time after time into the lane. John could just as easily have stood 25' from the basket on defense and given us more on offense.

Whether he loses his value depends completely on what Buzz told him to do.  If he told him to stay with James Bell no matter what then Derrick is going to stay with James Bell no matter what. 

That's where, I suspect, the freshmen run into trouble with Buzz and why they get the quick hook when they screw up.

If Buzz tells a guy not to help off his man (as an example) and in one of their first trips down the floor they help off their man, whether that leads to a score or not, what in the world do you expect Buzz to do?  Just let player keep doing whatever the player wants?  No, sit his ass on the bench until he learns to do what you ask on a consistent basis. 

My simplistic guess is that Buzz asks the guys to do very specific things when on the floor.  If they can't or won't do them, they sit.  He'll live with the results he gets from the players that do what he's asking them to do.

[GOO]

Whether he loses his value depends completely on what Buzz told him to do.  If he told him to stay with James Bell no matter what then Derrick is going to stay with James Bell no matter what. 

That's where, I suspect, the freshmen run into trouble with Buzz and why they get the quick hook when they screw up.

If Buzz tells a guy not to help off his man (as an example) and in one of their first trips down the floor they help off their man, whether that leads to a score or not, what in the world do you expect Buzz to do?  Just let player keep doing whatever the player wants?  No, sit his ass on the bench until he learns to do what you ask on a consistent basis. 

My simplistic guess is that Buzz asks the guys to do very specific things when on the floor.  If they can't or won't do them, they sit.  He'll live with the results he gets from the players that do what he's asking them to do.

Spoken like a true parent.  Maybe there is a divide between those of us who have raised children and those who have not (or at least not not in a successful way) 

[brandx]

Whether he loses his value depends completely on what Buzz told him to do.  If he told him to stay with James Bell no matter what then Derrick is going to stay with James Bell no matter what.  

That's where, I suspect, the freshmen run into trouble with Buzz and why they get the quick hook when they screw up.

If Buzz tells a guy not to help off his man (as an example) and in one of their first trips down the floor they help off their man, whether that leads to a score or not, what in the world do you expect Buzz to do?  Just let player keep doing whatever the player wants?  No, sit his ass on the bench until he learns to do what you ask on a consistent basis.  

My simplistic guess is that Buzz asks the guys to do very specific things when on the floor.  If they can't or won't do them, they sit.  He'll live with the results he gets from the players that do what he's asking them to do.

I think you hit the jackpot

[mu03eng]

I enjoy arguing with you because you usually make good points. I think we can agree that Derrick is playing 30+ minutes because Buzz trusts him on defense (obviously not for what he does on the offensive end), but doesn't Derrick lose his value on the floor completely if he is not involved in the defense at all. In OT, he simply played straight up on one of their 3-point shooters away from the hoop and provided no help defense as Archi drove time after time into the lane. John could just as easily have stood 25' from the basket on defense and given us more on offense.

The OT argument I totally buy for Dawson.  That was I think Buzz's biggest coaching error to date, especially when the score opened up on us a little bit.  We needed offense and shooters, which is clearly not Wilson.  When Buzz made the Mayo/Wilson defensive switch, especially down I think that's when Dawson could/should have been inserted.  Could you imagine if Wilson had been fouled shooting a 3 instead of Mayo??

[Windyplayer]

Whether he loses his value depends completely on what Buzz told him to do.  If he told him to stay with James Bell no matter what then Derrick is going to stay with James Bell no matter what. 

That's where, I suspect, the freshmen run into trouble with Buzz and why they get the quick hook when they screw up.

If Buzz tells a guy not to help off his man (as an example) and in one of their first trips down the floor they help off their man, whether that leads to a score or not, what in the world do you expect Buzz to do?  Just let player keep doing whatever the player wants?  No, sit his ass on the bench until he learns to do what you ask on a consistent basis. 

My simplistic guess is that Buzz asks the guys to do very specific things when on the floor.  If they can't or won't do them, they sit.  He'll live with the results he gets from the players that do what he's asking them to do.

Fair point, no doubt. My problem is the punishment doesn't fit the crime. Did Dawson really do something that bad in that 2-minute stretch in the second half against Nova to warrant being benched for the remainder of the game. Excessive punishishment on behalf of a parent is not fair to the child, to borrow the other poster's analogy, and in the end, it stunts development.

[jesmu84]

Fair point, no doubt. My problem is the punishment doesn't fit the crime. Did Dawson really do something that bad in that 2-minute stretch in the second half against Nova to warrant being benched for the remainder of the game. Excessive punishishment on behalf of a parent is not fair to the child, to borrow the other poster's analogy, and in the end, it stunts development.

Based on Buzz's success in both team success and player development success, I would argue his method does NOT stunt development at the team or individual level.

[Windyplayer]

Based on Buzz's success in both team success and player development success, I would argue his method does NOT stunt development at the team or individual level.

There are two arguments at play here in the Great Debate:

(1) Wilson is the best player based on Buzz's assessment of Wilson & Dawson as the head coach and his access to a plethora of resources to assess player performance, development, etc.

(2) Buzz doesn't necessairly think Wilson is the better player, but Wilson is playing because Dawson hasn't done enough or has not done the right things to warrant more PT than Wilson.

These are two distinct arguments. I can stomach argument #2 for the sake of perhaps a brighter future for Dawson and the team, but not #1.

[ATL MU Warrior]

Fair point, no doubt. My problem is the punishment doesn't fit the crime. Did Dawson really do something that bad in that 2-minute stretch in the second half against Nova to warrant being benched for the remainder of the game. Excessive punishishment on behalf of a parent is not fair to the child, to borrow the other poster's analogy, and in the end, it stunts development.

I don't know the answer, but it's got to go back to practice and what they talk about probably over and over.  If players aren't listening or aren't doing what they are told after all those hours of practice, then maybe it does warrant being benched.  Who really knows, except the guys on the team and the coaches.

[Nevada233]

Is there a team in the Nation besides Marquette that has a 1 and 2 guard playing 70+ Minutes a night and one cant make a shot or a free throw and the other cant create a shot...... But have Frosh and Big Shot Todd who can sitting on the bench... Lol I think we'd be hard pressed to find a team who does this...

[jesmu84]

There are two arguments at play here in the Great Debate:

(1) Wilson is the best player based on Buzz's assessment of Wilson & Dawson as the head coach and his access to a plethora of resources to assess player performance, development, etc.

(2) Buzz doesn't necessairly think Wilson is the better player, but Wilson is playing because Dawson hasn't done enough or has not done the right things to warrant more PT than Wilson.

These are two distinct arguments. I can stomach argument #2 for the sake of perhaps a brighter future for Dawson and the team, but not #1.

I think Dawson has done enough, personally, I think his increased time over the last 10 game is evident of that. I personally don't really believe Buzz has a quick hook when it comes to Dawson. What I do believe is that any player is given a quick hook if they make a mistake on the court and also is not playing to the gameplan. We've heard Buzz compliment guys for sticking to the gameplan. So, I think that Dawson is free to make mistakes (not a TON of them), as long as those mistakes come while sticking to the gameplan. If Dawson doubled a post player when Buzz set the gameplan as not doubling, and we gave up a basket, then yes, he should be pulled. But if Dawson gives up points while sticking to the plan, I'll bet Buzz lets him stay in the game.

[mu-rara]

It's this simple.

Freshman earn playing time when they can play the defense that Buzz is looking for, consistently.

That's how Vander earned court time as a freshman.

Thanks for the reminder Sultan.

[Windyplayer]

It's this simple.

Freshman earn playing time when they can play the defense that Buzz is looking for, consistently.

That's how Vander earned court time as a freshman.

Thanks for the reminder Sultan.

But if upper classmen cannot play defense, then by virtue of their status as upper classmen, they'll play over the freshmen even at the expense of the team's success?

[jesmu84]

But if upper classmen cannot play defense, then by virtue of their status as upper classmen, they'll play over the freshmen even at the expense of the team's success?

No. As evidenced by Juan sitting more. And Gardner playing more.

If players play to the gameplan, then they play.

[NersEllenson]

Is there a team in the Nation besides Marquette that has a 1 and 2 guard playing 70+ Minutes a night and one cant make a shot or a free throw and the other cant create a shot...... But have Frosh and Big Shot Todd who can sitting on the bench... Lol I think we'd be hard pressed to find a team who does this...

I've done some research and shockingly haven't been able to identify another backcourt capable of the above feat.  What I cannot assess, however, is other team's guards ability to play to the scouting report (yet is still leading to losses and no wins over Top 50 teams).  Perhaps the issue isn't our personnel at all - it's the scouting reports!! 

[Windyplayer]

If players play to the gameplan, then they play.

Fine, but I don't think that Dawson straying away from the gameplan occasionally warrants riding the pine for as much as he does. I can guarantee you that the kid is working hard at staying on the floor and Buzz is crushing this kid's morale by continuing to pull him on every whim.

By all means, if there's compelling and consistent evidence of Dawson straying away from the gameplan more so than other players that get way more minutes than him, then please provide it.