Not saying anything bad about the kid himself, but Derrick Wilson needs to stop being the point guard. Buzz needs to only play him 5-7 minutes a game to give someone a rest. If he plays point guard the whole season, MU will not make the NCAA tourney, and will barely finish above .500. Whether in a half court situation or fast break, MU is basically playing 4on 5 when on offense. Defensively, without being able to hand check,(point of emphasis)he is not a very good on the ball defender, anymore.
I like you
Quote from: Untucked on December 13, 2013, 10:22:55 AM
Not saying anything bad about the kid himself, but Derrick Wilson needs to stop being the point guard. Buzz needs to only play him 5-7 minutes a game to give someone a rest. If he plays point guard the whole season, MU will not make the NCAA tourney, and will barely finish above .500. Whether in a half court situation or fast break, MU is basically playing 4on 5 when on offense. Defensively, without being able to hand check,(point of emphasis)he is not a very good on the ball defender, anymore.
Jeez...thanks for bringing this up. Good thing none of this has been discussed over the past three weeks.
Quote from: Untucked on December 13, 2013, 10:22:55 AM
Not saying anything bad about the kid himself, but Derrick Wilson needs to stop being the point guard. Buzz needs to only play him 5-7 minutes a game to give someone a rest. If he plays point guard the whole season, MU will not make the NCAA tourney, and will barely finish above .500. Whether in a half court situation or fast break, MU is basically playing 4on 5 when on offense. Defensively, without being able to hand check,(point of emphasis)he is not a very good on the ball defender, anymore.
Your analysis is 100% spot on!! I'm sure Derrick will have a decent stat line tomorrow because we are playing a inferior team. Then all of the Derrick supporters will claim how he is showing signs of improvement and he's not the problem smh :o
Quote from: Untucked on December 13, 2013, 10:22:55 AM
Not saying anything bad about the kid himself, but Derrick Wilson needs to stop being the point guard. Buzz needs to only play him 5-7 minutes a game to give someone a rest. If he plays point guard the whole season, MU will not make the NCAA tourney, and will barely finish above .500. Whether in a half court situation or fast break, MU is basically playing 4on 5 when on offense. Defensively, without being able to hand check,(point of emphasis)he is not a very good on the ball defender, anymore.
We could maybe literally play 4 on 5?
Quote from: leever on December 13, 2013, 10:41:54 AM
We could maybe literally play 4 on 5?
No we are playing 4 on 5 with him in the game ;D
Quote from: mubuzz on December 13, 2013, 10:40:33 AM
Your analysis is 100% spot on!! I'm sure Derrick will have a decent stat line tomorrow because we are playing a inferior team. Then all of the Derrick supporters will claim how he is showing signs of improvement and he's not the problem smh :o
The problem with people who are anti-Derrick is that they can't answer the simple question...."who should play point?" Well, without coming up with a bunch of ridiculous alternatives.
Quote from: Untucked on December 13, 2013, 10:22:55 AM
Not saying anything bad about the kid himself, but Derrick Wilson needs to stop being the point guard. Buzz needs to only play him 5-7 minutes a game to give someone a rest. If he plays point guard the whole season, MU will not make the NCAA tourney, and will barely finish above .500. Whether in a half court situation or fast break, MU is basically playing 4on 5 when on offense. Defensively, without being able to hand check,(point of emphasis)he is not a very good on the ball defender, anymore.
Derrick will start every game (barring injury) and MU will make the tournament.
If you disagree, let's make it interesting.
(this invitation is open to anybody).
Quote from: Untucked on December 13, 2013, 10:22:55 AM
Not saying anything bad about the kid himself, but Derrick Wilson needs to stop being the point guard. Buzz needs to only play him 5-7 minutes a game to give someone a rest. If he plays point guard the whole season, MU will not make the NCAA tourney, and will barely finish above .500. Whether in a half court situation or fast break, MU is basically playing 4on 5 when on offense. Defensively, without being able to hand check,(point of emphasis)he is not a very good on the ball defender, anymore.
Go listen to Buzz and Homer this week. Buzz said that is exactly what happens when Derrick is on the floor (4 on 5). This is well known and not an epiphany by you. Buzz also described what Derrick has to do to change this ... if his defender is playing off him, Derrick is fast enough to beat his man. Buzz wants him to literally run into him, initiating contact, drawing the foul and going to the line. Derrick can do this.
So, what is wrong with what Buzz says? And, as Sultan asked, if you sit Derrick, who pays the 1?
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on December 13, 2013, 10:45:47 AM
The problem with people who are anti-Derrick is that they can't answer the simple question...."who should play point?" Well, without coming up with a bunch of ridiculous alternatives.
Exactly.
Quote from: Heisenberg on December 13, 2013, 10:54:08 AM
Go listen to Buzz and Homer this week. Buzz said that is exactly what happens when Derrick is on the floor (4 on 5). This is well known and not an epiphany by you. Buzz also described what Derrick has to do to change this ... if his defender is playing off him, Derrick is fast enough to beat his man. Buzz wants him to literally run into him, initiating contact, drawing the foul and going to the line. Derrick can do this.
So, what is wrong with what Buzz says? And, as Sultan asked, if you sit Derrick, who pays the 1?
Duane Wilson is just back from injury and has never played a second of D1 ball. Obviously, the job should be his. On second thought, John Dawson threw a couple nice passes against Grambling, give him the reins!
Quote from: Heisenberg on December 13, 2013, 10:54:08 AM
Go listen to Buzz and Homer this week. Buzz said that is exactly what happens when Derrick is on the floor (4 on 5). This is well known and not an epiphany by you. Buzz also described what Derrick has to do to change this ... if his defender is playing off him, Derrick is fast enough to beat his man. Buzz wants him to literally run into him, initiating contact, drawing the foul and going to the line. Derrick can do this.
So, what is wrong with what Buzz says? And, as Sultan asked, if you sit Derrick, who pays the 1?
His defender always plays off him because he cant shoot! I find it very hard to believe that he can beat his man when said person is playing 5 ft off of him. He has finished in the lane a few times this year, but countless others he has been rejected or not even drawn iron. Throw in Dawson and let him take his lumps. He played PG all throughout high school...It's not like you completely forget what the PG job is supposed to do. I would even throw out Mayo at this point instead of Derrick. Either of these 2 couldn't possibly be anywhere worse as the bar is set extremely low. I feel Buzz is being loyal to a fault and I love Buzz!
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on December 13, 2013, 10:45:47 AM
The problem with people who are anti-Derrick is that they can't answer the simple question...."who should play point?" Well, without coming up with a bunch of ridiculous alternatives.
That's why I suggested that the poster was saying that we should "literally" play 4 on 5 because there is no better answer if Derrick sits.
Derrick isn't the starting guard who needs to sit more....
Maybe Derrick will be late for a practice and we will find out.
Buzz isn't simply being loyal. He is playing the best point guard on the roster.
We have had this discussion repeatedly. But I will just point out that when Dawson played briefly last Saturday when Derrick was out of the game, he played in the off-guard position while Jamil ran the point. So the head basketball coach, the guy you "love," didn't even think that Dawson was ready to be the back up point guard.
And before I give the ball to Todd at PG, it would be nice if he could actually unseat the guy performing poorly in front of him at his natural position.
I'm not saying that the backcourt isn't a problem, and I wouldn't doubt that Dawson gets more of a run starting tomorrow, but there simply is no good alternative to Derrick right now.
Quote from: Untucked on December 13, 2013, 10:22:55 AM
Not saying anything bad about the kid himself, but Derrick Wilson needs to stop being the point guard. Buzz needs to only play him 5-7 minutes a game to give someone a rest. If he plays point guard the whole season, MU will not make the NCAA tourney, and will barely finish above .500. Whether in a half court situation or fast break, MU is basically playing 4on 5 when on offense. Defensively, without being able to hand check,(point of emphasis)he is not a very good on the ball defender, anymore.
Is this Untucked fellow Pudi pranking us?
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on December 13, 2013, 10:45:47 AM
The problem with people who are anti-Derrick is that they can't answer the simple question...."who should play point?" Well, without coming up with a bunch of ridiculous alternatives.
Well, that's why the problem isn't necessarily Derrick, but what we are asking Derrick to do.
You can't ask Chris Otule to play 40min. per game and be effective. It's beyond his pay grade. Same for Davante.
With Derrick, we can't play him 38min. per game and then rant and rave about all of his shortcomings. It's not really his fault. He is who he is.
Derrick needs another role player to play PG for 15min. per night. If you can get Derrick down to 25min, I think we'll see some improvements in efficiency, and Buzz might be able to mix and match to fit the situation.
So, the problem isn't Derrick per se, but what you are asking him to do. Not many PGs in the country can be efficient and effective for 38min. per night.
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on December 13, 2013, 11:10:55 AM
Buzz isn't simply being loyal. He is playing the best point guard on the roster.
We have had this discussion repeatedly. But I will just point out that when Dawson played briefly last Saturday when Derrick was out of the game, he played in the off-guard position while Jamil ran the point. So the head basketball coach, the guy you "love," didn't even think that Dawson was ready to be the back up point guard.
And before I give the ball to Todd at PG, it would be nice if he could actually unseat the guy performing poorly in front of him at his natural position.
I'm not saying that the backcourt isn't a problem, and I wouldn't doubt that Dawson gets more of a run starting tomorrow, but there simply is no good alternative to Derrick right now.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. (Derrick running the point)
I think it would be worth a try to let Mayo run the point. Maybe it would engage him and help him focus. We should be exploring every possible alternative before we waste our whole season on a PG with a low floor and even lower ceiling.
Exactly, and that is why I hope to see a legitimate back up emerge over the next couple of weeks. It would be nice to see Dawson be able to perform 8 mpg. Not sure it's possible, but even Duane coming back might be able to get some good minutes down the line.
They are simply using Jamil there because there aren't many good alternatives in Buzz's mind right now.
Quote from: mubuzz on December 13, 2013, 11:17:09 AM
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. (Derrick running the point)
I think it would be worth a try to let Mayo run the point. Maybe it would engage him and help him focus. We should be exploring every possible alternative before we waste our whole season on a PG with a low floor and even lower ceiling.
I don't blame Derrick, he tries and he is who he is. This is an epic fail on Buzz putting him in this position.
Quote from: mubuzz on December 13, 2013, 11:17:09 AM
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. (Derrick running the point)
I think it would be worth a try to let Mayo run the point. Maybe it would engage him and help him focus. We should be exploring every possible alternative before we waste our whole season on a PG with a low floor and even lower ceiling.
1. Take it up with the coach who disagrees with you.
2. By definition, a ceiling can't be lower than a floor.
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on December 13, 2013, 11:18:26 AM
Exactly, and that is why I hope to see a legitimate back up emerge over the next couple of weeks. It would be nice to see Dawson be able to perform 8 mpg. Not sure it's possible, but even Duane coming back might be able to get some good minutes down the line.
They are simply using Jamil there because there aren't many good alternatives in Buzz's mind right now.
Yea, and this is what I'm afraid of. 8mpg is nice, but I don't know if it's going to be enough.
I love Derrick, but, he should really be playing 25min. or less (depending upon the match-up).
Buzz is going to have to find some mix-n-match ways to get Derrick's minutes down.
I don't say because "Derrick can't shoot!" or any of the cliches thrown out there... I'm just saying that it's really hard for a role-player PG to be effective and efficient for 35+mpg. Physically, mentally, and match-up wise, that's a tall order.
Quote from: Guns n Ammo on December 13, 2013, 10:47:10 AM
Derrick will start every game (barring injury) and MU will make the tournament.
If you disagree, let's make it interesting.
(this invitation is open to anybody).
Start every game? Probably.
If he averages over 30 minutes in conference absolutely zero chance we are a tourney team.
Quote from: mubuzz on December 13, 2013, 11:17:09 AM
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. (Derrick running the point)
So if someone plays and has limitations, it would be insane to keep playing him and expecting him to improve?
Someone needs to tell Jimmy Butler....
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on December 13, 2013, 11:19:57 AM
1. Take it up with the coach who disagrees with you.
2. By definition, a ceiling can't be lower than a floor.
Lol, might not have worded it right but I think you understand what I was getting at.
Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on December 13, 2013, 11:26:41 AM
Start every game? Probably.
If he averages over 30 minutes in conference absolutely zero chance we are a tourney team.
I don't quite agree with you that they wouldn't be a tourney team, but I certainly do hope that someone steps up enough to take 10 mpg off of Derrick at the PG position. So far that hasn't happened.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on December 13, 2013, 11:26:58 AM
So if someone plays and has limitations, it would be insane to keep playing him and expecting him to improve?
Someone needs to tell Jimmy Butler....
Jimmy Butler had a skill set that could be developed...A 6ft point guard who can't penetrate and shoot not so much.
Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on December 13, 2013, 11:26:41 AM
Start every game? Probably.
If he averages over 30 minutes in conference absolutely zero chance we are a tourney team.
ooooh, that's close.
I think he'll end up around 27-28mpg. I think Buzz is going to find some ways to fill the other 10-13min.
MU will make the tournament. That's an open bet to any of you experts out there.
I truly believe we will find a way in too.
But whether Duane or Jamil(obviously not 2 quick dumb fouls version)
We will be filling in big for Derrick.
Some blow out of proportion his deficiencies. He's a solid role guy who deserves to play, but he cannot be the catalyst. Just can't.
Quote from: mubuzz on December 13, 2013, 11:29:58 AM
Jimmy Butler had a skill set that could be developed...A 6ft point guard who can't penetrate and shoot not so much.
So your statement about insanity was wrong. We kept doing the same thing (playing Jimmy), and the results DID change.
You know better than Buzz that Derrick won't improve too?
Quote from: GooooMarquette on December 13, 2013, 11:42:06 AM
So your statement about insanity was wrong. We kept doing the same thing (playing Jimmy), and the results DID change.
You know better than Buzz that Derrick won't improve too?
I didn't read all the comments at all but...
Where the hell did a Jimmy Butler comparison come into play?
Are we mixing alcohol consumption with message board posting?
What happened to the moratorium? It appears the cease fire has been breached big time!
I have not yet seen a better option on this squad. Perhaps Duane will be different, perhaps JD has found his groove and will step up. Through 9 games, though, DeWilson is clearly the best choice. I am not saying that he is great. I am not saying that he will be the best option all season. Merely that he has been the best point guard on the team so far.
Agree with the post, we will not make the NCAA with Derrrick at the point. Dawson and Duane Wilson need to take over the point. They have the talent to play a better point. We need to run again. I don't think we've had one fast break all year. Derrick doesn't do that.
This is new and exciting. Not all wrong, though.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on December 13, 2013, 11:42:06 AM
So your statement about insanity was wrong. We kept doing the same thing (playing Jimmy), and the results DID change.
You know better than Buzz that Derrick won't improve too?
Again, Jimmy Butler had a skill set that could be developed...PG's either have it or don't and you can see potential in them. A good example is Isaiah Taylor from Texas. He's a freshman and his numbers aren't that great, but you can see he has what it takes and he has loads of potential. He is someone you stick with and develop because he has great potential that flashes regularly. Derrick doesn't have that.
Thomas is a much bigger problem than Derrick. Not even close. Derrick is fine
Quote from: mubuzz on December 13, 2013, 11:05:03 AM
His defender always plays off him because he cant shoot! I find it very hard to believe that he can beat his man when said person is playing 5 ft off of him. He has finished in the lane a few times this year, but countless others he has been rejected or not even drawn iron. Throw in Dawson and let him take his lumps. He played PG all throughout high school...It's not like you completely forget what the PG job is supposed to do. I would even throw out Mayo at this point instead of Derrick. Either of these 2 couldn't possibly be anywhere worse as the bar is set extremely low. I feel Buzz is being loyal to a fault and I love Buzz!
If his defender is playing off him, it is impossible for him to get in position to draw the charge. Derrick needs to run right into him and get the foul and go to the line. That will force him to play closer, then Derrick can feed Ox or Wilson in the paint (he cannot with his defender playing between him and Ox). A point guard does not need to be a shooter (but its better if he is).
Unless/Until Dawson and Duane show something, this remains MU's best option.
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on December 13, 2013, 11:10:55 AM
Buzz isn't simply being loyal. He is playing the best point guard on the roster.
We have had this discussion repeatedly. But I will just point out that when Dawson played briefly last Saturday when Derrick was out of the game, he played in the off-guard position while Jamil ran the point. So the head basketball coach, the guy you "love," didn't even think that Dawson was ready to be the back up point guard.
And before I give the ball to Todd at PG, it would be nice if he could actually unseat the guy performing poorly in front of him at his natural position.
I'm not saying that the backcourt isn't a problem, and I wouldn't doubt that Dawson gets more of a run starting tomorrow, but there simply is no good alternative to Derrick right now.
Well based on Sugar's season statistics (link below), it is quite evident Todd should be unseating Jake. Buzz's continued insistence to give Jake big minutes, is, in my opinion an example of him being stubborn - even when all data suggest Mayo should be getting max minutes at the 2...which also makes it believable that his continued riding of Derrick could also be out of the same degree of stubbornness. Clearly Mayo gives the team a better chance of winning than does Jake, yet Jake continues to get more minutes...defies all logic.
http://s228.photobucket.com/user/roblowe14/media/Season121013.png.html
Quote from: mubuzz on December 13, 2013, 11:52:25 AM
Again, Jimmy Butler had a skill set that could be developed...PG's either have it or don't and you can see potential in them. A good example is Isaiah Taylor from Texas. He's a freshman and his numbers aren't that great, but you can see he has what it takes and he has loads of potential. He is someone you stick with and develop because he has great potential that flashes regularly. Derrick doesn't have that.
You keep ignoring the fact that your statement was wrong. Maybe that's the definition of insanity....
Jake Thomas is this year's Trent Lockett. Buzz has him in there for defense, glue, the occasional basket. I was wrong about Trent last year. I swore up and down that Todd would/should start when he came back from suspension. Clearly, I was wrong. Buzz likes JT because he is always in the right place. IMO, Jake is underutilized in Buzz's offense, as he should be the one feeding Gardner from the wing instead of DeWil. Jake's guy has to stay up on him because he doesn't want him to make the first one. This would give Gardner more room immediately.
Quote from: Heisenberg on December 13, 2013, 11:54:34 AM
If his defender is playing off him, it is impossible for him to get in position to draw the charge. Derrick needs to run right into him and get the foul and go to the line. That will force him to play closer, then Derrick can feed Ox or Wilson in the paint (he cannot with his defender playing between him and Ox). A point guard does not need to be a shooter (but its better if he is).
Unless/Until Dawson and Duane show something, this remains MU's best option.
You have to be joking? If he is playing off, he can anticipate what he is going to do and be able to take charges all day. And if he gets to the line he's not really too good of a free throw shooter.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on December 13, 2013, 11:04:48 AM
Duane Wilson is just back from injury and has never played a second of D1 ball. Obviously, the job should be his. On second thought, John Dawson threw a couple nice passes against Grambling, give him the reins!
Sadly, many people actually have those opinions.
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on December 13, 2013, 11:52:32 AM
Thomas is a much bigger problem than Derrick. Not even close. Derrick is fine
Derrick is not fine. But yeah, Jake is a huge problem.
It is comical that people can actually be ok with our current starting backcourt.
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on December 13, 2013, 11:19:57 AM
2. By definition, a ceiling can't be lower than a floor.
Messrs. Camus, Kafka, Heller, Vonnegut, Pinter, Beckett, Ionesco, and Abe would rightfully disagree with your definition...
Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on December 13, 2013, 12:08:36 PM
Derrick is not fine. But yeah, Jake is a huge problem.
It is comical that people can actually be ok with our current starting backcourt.
I'm not so sure many are "ok with our current starting backcourt."
The way I look at it, many fans seem to think one of the following:
1. We should replace BOTH Derrick and Jake because we have better options at both positions.
2. We should replace ONLY Derrick because we have better PG options, but start Jake as our best SG
3. We should replace ONLY Jake because we have better SG options, but Derrick is our best PG
I am defending Derrick as a started because I am in camp 3. He is far from perfect, but I just haven't seen a better option yet. And even with my support of Derrick starting, I agree it would be better if he played more like 25 mpg. I suspect that isn't happening because Buzz doesn't think the other options are even close.
On the other hand, I think both Todd and JJJ have shown themselves to be better options than Jake. People keep excusing Jake's inconsistency with the fact that he doesn't usually get the ball in good shooting positions. That may be true, but fo rme that's the exact reason we'd be better off with Todd or JJJ -- they can create shots instead of just depending to being able to take every shot in perfect rhythm like Jake.
Quote from: tower912 on December 13, 2013, 11:58:27 AM
Jake Thomas is this year's Trent Lockett. Buzz has him in there for defense, glue, the occasional basket. I was wrong about Trent last year. I swore up and down that Todd would/should start when he came back from suspension. Clearly, I was wrong. Buzz likes JT because he is always in the right place. IMO, Jake is underutilized in Buzz's offense, as he should be the one feeding Gardner from the wing instead of DeWil. Jake's guy has to stay up on him because he doesn't want him to make the first one. This would give Gardner more room immediately.
The PG position is killing JT's offense (I will officially say the PG position from now on because Buzz is convinced the alternatives are not an upgrade, and if he is convinced, I am convinced). Jake is no star, but he can shoot if he is open. Because of his overall lack of quickness, he will never be open as long as his man doesn't have to play help defense, and his man will never have to play help defense, because the guy guarding our PG can play all the help defense he wants without fear. You guys that think Todd is the answer, just know he will have the same problem. He is quicker and is more likely to free himself, but he will always have a chaser when he is on the floor for the same reason, and, should he attempt to take the ball to the basket, he will face an extra defender, also for the same reason.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on December 13, 2013, 12:20:42 PM
I'm not so sure many are "ok with our current starting backcourt."
The way I look at it, many fans seem to think one of the following:
1. We should replace BOTH Derrick and Jake because we have better options at both positions.
2. We should replace ONLY Derrick because we have better PG options, but start Jake as our best SG
3. We should replace ONLY Jake because we have better SG options, but Derrick is our best PG
I am defending Derrick as a started because I am in camp 3. He is far from perfect, but I just haven't seen a better option yet. And even with my support of Derrick starting, I agree it would be better if he played more like 25 mpg. I suspect that isn't happening because Buzz doesn't think the other options are even close.
On the other hand, I think both Todd and JJJ have shown themselves to be better options than Jake. People keep excusing Jake's inconsistency with the fact that he doesn't usually get the ball in good shooting positions. That may be true, but fo rme that's the exact reason we'd be better off with Todd or JJJ -- they can create shots instead of just depending to being able to take every shot in perfect rhythm like Jake.
right now with duane being hurt and not proven a single thing I am also in camp 3. Jake just simply isn't a D1 heavy minutes player. Derrick becomes much less a liability if we have guys around him who can score. Surround Derrick with Todd, JJJ, Deonte, OX, Jamil he becomes better. Those guys can get themselves points. I mean for gods sake Davante looks like Allen Iverson taking the ball to the hole compared to Jake. It is beyond embarrassing.
During the SDSU game they showed a comical stat. Jake was shooting 37% from 3(very streaky at that) and his OVERALL FG% was 30%!!! Considering he shoots FAR more 3s than 2s. If his overall drops that much I am guessing his 2 pt % was around 15.
I refuse to even look up his numbers btw. Just guessing based off what they showed during that game.
Quote from: UticaBusBarn on December 13, 2013, 11:44:16 AM
What happened to the moratorium? It appears the cease fire has been breached big time!
http://www.youtube.com/v/kb3tfk8dxvU?version=3&hl=en_US
Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on December 13, 2013, 12:28:02 PM
Derrick becomes much less a liability if we have guys around him who can score. Surround Derrick with Todd, JJJ, Deonte, OX, Jamil he becomes better. Those guys can get themselves points.
That's like saying the 2 of clubs would be a good card to have in your poker hand if the other four cards are aces. It may be part of a winning hand, but it ain't helping.
Quote from: Ners on December 13, 2013, 11:54:54 AM
Well based on Sugar's season statistics (link below), it is quite evident Todd should be unseating Jake. Buzz's continued insistence to give Jake big minutes, is, in my opinion an example of him being stubborn - even when all data suggest Mayo should be getting max minutes at the 2...which also makes it believable that his continued riding of Derrick could also be out of the same degree of stubbornness. Clearly Mayo gives the team a better chance of winning than does Jake, yet Jake continues to get more minutes...defies all logic.
http://s228.photobucket.com/user/roblowe14/media/Season121013.png.html
My view of the Buzz-Mayo relationship can best be described by the following analogy...
It's a beautiful day. You get home from work and your son wants to go outside and shoot some hoops in the driveway with you. He really wants to go outside. You really want to go outside. Your wife really wants both of you outside. Yet, you told your son repeatedly that he couldn't play outside until he finished his homework and cleaned his room, but he hasn't done either. About an hour later, your son has finished most of his homework and done a halfass job of cleaning his room. You know it would be fun for everyone if you let him play outside, but if you do, what lesson is he learning?
Quote from: Ners on December 13, 2013, 11:54:54 AM
Well based on Sugar's season statistics (link below), it is quite evident Todd should be unseating Jake. Buzz's continued insistence to give Jake big minutes, is, in my opinion an example of him being stubborn - even when all data suggest Mayo should be getting max minutes at the 2...which also makes it believable that his continued riding of Derrick could also be out of the same degree of stubbornness. Clearly Mayo gives the team a better chance of winning than does Jake, yet Jake continues to get more minutes...defies all logic.
http://s228.photobucket.com/user/roblowe14/media/Season121013.png.html
Given Todd's history, do you really think it "defies all logic?"
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on December 13, 2013, 12:37:06 PM
My view of the Buzz-Mayo relationship can best be described by the following analogy...
It's a beautiful day. You get home from work and your son wants to go outside and shoot some hoops in the driveway with you. He really wants to go outside. You really want to go outside. Your wife really wants both of you outside. Yet, you told your son repeatedly that he couldn't play outside until he finished his homework and cleaned his room, but he hasn't done either. About an hour later, your son has finished most of his homework and done a halfass job of cleaning his room. You know it would be fun for everyone if you let him play outside, but if you do, what lesson is he learning?
I think you hit the nail on the head. As soon as Todd wants to start - and shows it by following Buzz's rules - Jake will hit the bench in a nanosecond.
Quote from: tower912 on December 13, 2013, 11:58:27 AM
Jake Thomas is this year's Trent Lockett. Buzz has him in there for defense, glue, the occasional basket. I was wrong about Trent last year. I swore up and down that Todd would/should start when he came back from suspension. Clearly, I was wrong. Buzz likes JT because he is always in the right place. IMO, Jake is underutilized in Buzz's offense, as he should be the one feeding Gardner from the wing instead of DeWil. Jake's guy has to stay up on him because he doesn't want him to make the first one. This would give Gardner more room immediately.
"Jake Thomas is this year's Trent Lockett".
Are you kidding? Thomas is not half the player Trent was. Not sure what Jake Thomas you are watching, but toss out the Arizona State game, and he has been a complete offensive liability.
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on December 13, 2013, 12:39:09 PM
Given Todd's history, do you really think it "defies all logic?"
I do feel that Todd's number 1 love is obviously basketball....means more to him than anything....and when what he's given in the way of PT is inconsistent, which makes it harder to be effective, and in turn frustrating - actually detracts from his overall happiness - which in my opinion, if he were able to get a consistent 30+ minutes a game, and his production began to soar - he'd be happier in general, and that would translate to other areas of his life. He needs to feel good about himself - and basketball is the 1 thing that can help in that area. To not start, and sit behind a player you know you are better than, and the numbers bear it out significantly - is a mindf$ck.
Quote from: CTWarrior on December 13, 2013, 12:32:55 PM
That's like saying the 2 of clubs would be a good card to have in your poker hand if the other four cards are aces. It may be part of a winning hand, but it ain't helping.
Im not a derrick fan at all but he has assets.
The guy can defend very solid for the most part and doesn't typically turn the ball over.
We know he can't shoot. It won't change. Having him play with Jake Thomas a guy who cannot do anything but shoot streaky open Js if he happens to be open(very rare), Otule who really cant do anything on O unless guarded by a midget and gets a free dunk and Juan who while very nice hustle player/rebounder cannot score
You can't expect Derrick to do a ton. I just absolutely hate that combination of players.
It is harder to sag on Derrick if teams no that Todd, Jamil Deonte etc.. will take it to the rake or get their own jumper at any time.
Quote from: Ners on December 13, 2013, 12:49:42 PM
I do feel that Todd's number 1 love is obviously basketball....means more to him than anything....and when what he's given in the way of PT is inconsistent, which makes it harder to be effective, and in turn frustrating - actually detracts from his overall happiness - which in my opinion, if he were able to get a consistent 30+ minutes a game, and his production began to soar - he'd be happier in general, and that would translate to other areas of his life. He needs to feel good about himself - and basketball is the 1 thing that can help in that area. To not start, and sit behind a player you know you are better than, and the numbers bear it out significantly - is a mindf$ck.
So Todd would do better in school and would stop showing up late for practice if Buzz would only play him more? Is that really what you are saying?
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on December 13, 2013, 12:52:51 PM
So Todd would do better in school and would stop showing up late for practice if Buzz would only play him more? Is that really what you are saying?
Look, you are the guy that threw out the comment - it would just be nice if Todd could unseat the guy in front of him. All data supports and suggest he's earned that right - and to not be given that has to be maddening. He wasn't given that option prior to even being late for practice...so its not like that was in play prior to the Wisconsin game...
At some point, you have to forgive the mistakes of the past, and quit with the whole tough love thing. If the events of Todd's first 2 years are still being held against him - Buzz should have moved on from him. Being late to 1 practice, isn't exactly a felony - and from what we know, this has never been an issue for Todd - being late to practice. Cut the kid a little slack
Quote from: Ners on December 13, 2013, 12:58:09 PM
Look, you are the guy that threw out the comment - it would just be nice if Todd could unseat the guy in front of him. All data supports and suggest he's earned that right
Except for, of course, that Buzz doesn't agree.
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on December 13, 2013, 01:00:19 PM
Except for, of course, that Buzz doesn't agree.
No, as you speculate, its because Todd's behavior. No way you look at the statistical performance between Todd and Jake - even defensively as the "Mayo Effect" thread clearly illustrated - and believe Jake has earned the starting/more minutes position.
So, in my view, Buzz is taking the whole tough love thing a little too far, and the mind games aren't helping Mayo ultimately..
Quote from: Ners on December 13, 2013, 01:03:26 PM
No, as you speculate, its because Todd's behavior. No way you look at the statistical performance between Todd and Jake - even defensively as the "Mayo Effect" thread clearly illustrated - and believe Jake has earned the starting/more minutes position.
So, in my view, Buzz is taking the whole tough love thing a little too far, and the mind games aren't helping Mayo ultimately..
I simply refuted your comment that it "defies all logic." There are perfectly logical reasons why Todd may not be starting.
And if Todd is struggling with Buzz's methods, then Todd should probably look elsewhere.
Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on December 13, 2013, 12:49:50 PM
Im not a derrick fan at all but he has assets.
The guy can defend very solid for the most part and doesn't typically turn the ball over.
We know he can't shoot. It won't change. Having him play with Jake Thomas a guy who cannot do anything but shoot streaky open Js if he happens to be open(very rare), Otule who really cant do anything on O unless guarded by a midget and gets a free dunk and Juan who while very nice hustle player/rebounder cannot score
You can't expect Derrick to do a ton. I just absolutely hate that combination of players.
It is harder to sag on Derrick if teams no that Todd, Jamil Deonte etc.. will take it to the rake or get their own jumper at any time.
I agree that he is a fine (though not disruptive) defensive PG and I also agree that he doesn't turn the ball over. I also think he shows signs of being a good rebounder with a good feeling for where the ball will go. I agree yet again that his weaknesses are magnified by those he generally shares the floor with, particularly his backcourt mate.
What I don't agree with is that there is any configuration of players anywhere in college basketball where he would be an asset on the offensive end of the basketball court. The best you could get to is that if he was on the floor with a bunch of great players the team could score despite his not helping.
I could see a scenario for Jake Thomas being helpful. With a great penetrating PG who can pass and knock down the mid-range jumper, Jake could be an asset as a guy who could hit the kickout three. With the players he currently plays with, he doesn't get those looks.
In the end, I think we all agree that our backcourt is a problem, and that as a pair they aren't helping each other. If Derrick could just force his defender to play him honestly, I think that would open up a lot of things. How he does that, I'm not sure. I am sure Jake's not going to improve appreciably at this point. He production can improve however, if we could find him some open looks.
Quote from: Ners on December 13, 2013, 01:03:26 PM
No, as you speculate, its because Todd's behavior. No way you look at the statistical performance between Todd and Jake - even defensively as the "Mayo Effect" thread clearly illustrated - and believe Jake has earned the starting/more minutes position.
So, in my view, Buzz is taking the whole tough love thing a little too far, and the mind games aren't helping Mayo ultimately..
You can't say Buzz is taking the whole tough love thing a little too far if you don't know the particulars of the entire situation.
As far as your other comments go. Playing time is not simply earned by production on the court. Its pretty obvious, that Buzz requires players to earn playing time by production on and off the court.
Mayo has been given the opportunity for minutes since day one. Unfortunately, Mayo hasn't taken advantage of them. I don't know the entire situation but I know enough to believe that if we had any other coach besides Buzz, Mayo would not be on the team as his act is very tiresome but Buzz likes challenges and still believes in him.
You might forgive mistakes but you can't forget them, especially when a lot of the same ones pile up over the years. Hopefully Mayo realizes the chances he has been given and works hard to help the team because he is very productive on the court when he plays.
Quote from: mufanatic on December 13, 2013, 01:38:46 PM
You can't say Buzz is taking the whole tough love thing a little too far if you don't know the particulars of the entire situation.
I'm pretty sure "ners" means "mindless speculation" in some obscure language.
Quote from: Ners on December 13, 2013, 01:03:26 PM
No, as you speculate, its because Todd's behavior. No way you look at the statistical performance between Todd and Jake - even defensively as the "Mayo Effect" thread clearly illustrated - and believe Jake has earned the starting/more minutes position.
So, in my view, Buzz is taking the whole tough love thing a little too far, and the mind games aren't helping Mayo ultimately..
It isn't tough love. Todd violates team rules so he sits. Bottom line.
Buzz is trying to develop decent men first, and basketball players second.
Quote from: 79Warrior on December 13, 2013, 12:49:25 PM
"Jake Thomas is this year's Trent Lockett".
Are you kidding? Thomas is not half the player Trent was. Not sure what Jake Thomas you are watching, but toss out the Arizona State game, and he has been a complete offensive liability.
Through 9 game last year, Lockett 8.1 PPG, 4.5 RPG. JT this year 6.4 PPG, 2.0 APG
I actually thought Jakes rebounds would be higher. PPG isn't that far off.
Quote from: tower912 on December 13, 2013, 01:55:06 PM
Through 9 game last year, Lockett 8.1 PPG, 4.5 RPG. JT this year 6.4 PPG, 2.0 APG
I actually thought Jakes rebounds would be higher. PPG isn't that far off.
But they have much different roles. Lockett was a defender, offensive rebounder, etc. who played the position that Juan does this year. Jake is playing the position that Vander did last year...and DJO the year before.
Quote from: CTWarrior on December 13, 2013, 01:08:19 PM
I agree that he is a fine (though not disruptive) defensive PG and I also agree that he doesn't turn the ball over. I also think he shows signs of being a good rebounder with a good feeling for where the ball will go. I agree yet again that his weaknesses are magnified by those he generally shares the floor with, particularly his backcourt mate.
What I don't agree with is that there is any configuration of players anywhere in college basketball where he would be an asset on the offensive end of the basketball court. The best you could get to is that if he was on the floor with a bunch of great players the team could score despite his not helping.
I could see a scenario for Jake Thomas being helpful. With a great penetrating PG who can pass and knock down the mid-range jumper, Jake could be an asset as a guy who could hit the kickout three. With the players he currently plays with, he doesn't get those looks.
In the end, I think we all agree that our backcourt is a problem, and that as a pair they aren't helping each other. If Derrick could just force his defender to play him honestly, I think that would open up a lot of things. How he does that, I'm not sure. I am sure Jake's not going to improve appreciably at this point. He production can improve however, if we could find him some open looks.
I hear you. I am not saying that Derrick is even an asset on when surrounded by scorers. I am just more saying that he isn't the detriment that some make him out to be if he has actual talent playing with him.
He is poor at penetrating and kicking out to a open guy but problem is idk if Jake could be a kick out option with Marcus Smart running the show. Jake while having a good stroke just isn't consistent and is just poor at getting himself in a position where a kickout is even possible.
Quote from: Ners on December 13, 2013, 01:03:26 PM
No, as you speculate, its because Todd's behavior. No way you look at the statistical performance between Todd and Jake - even defensively as the "Mayo Effect" thread clearly illustrated - and believe Jake has earned the starting/more minutes position.
So, in my view, Buzz is taking the whole tough love thing a little too far, and the mind games aren't helping Mayo ultimately..
I think you view Todd as a good kid who has just made some bad choices.
It's also equally likely that Todd is really a butt head, who has acted like a butt head, and is being treated as such.
I have no idea which side of the "butt head" scale Todd is on, but I trust Buzz has it under control.
Quote from: mufanatic on December 13, 2013, 01:38:46 PM
You can't say Buzz is taking the whole tough love thing a little too far if you don't know the particulars of the entire situation.
As far as your other comments go. Playing time is not simply earned by production on the court. Its pretty obvious, that Buzz requires players to earn playing time by production on and off the court.
Mayo has been given the opportunity for minutes since day one. Unfortunately, Mayo hasn't taken advantage of them. I don't know the entire situation but I know enough to believe that if we had any other coach besides Buzz, Mayo would not be on the team as his act is very tiresome but Buzz likes challenges and still believes in him.
You might forgive mistakes but you can't forget them, especially when a lot of the same ones pile up over the years. Hopefully Mayo realizes the chances he has been given and works hard to help the team because he is very productive on the court when he plays.
Actually Buzz runs a MUCH tighter ship than most coaches, and Mayos transgressions at a lot of programs wouldn't even be much cause for drama - as far as getting ruled academically ineligible, being late for ONE practice in 2.5 years, and having to sit out 1/2 of a game at WVU with 3 other teammates who did the same thing. These aren't felonies and to suggest Mayo likely wouldn't still be around at other programs is totally ludicrous. Aki was trying to get him to Memphis and I can promise if Todd decided to transfer there would be plenty of schools seeking his services. This whole narrative of Todd being such a bad kid/teammate is totally overblown by our overly self righteous.
FWIW, I have been on the 'time-to-start-Todd-Mayo' kick for a year now. I think it is time to start him at SG and bring Jake off of the bench. But I don't like seeing JT slagged.
Quote from: Ners on December 13, 2013, 12:49:42 PM
I do feel that Todd's number 1 love is obviously basketball....means more to him than anything....and when what he's given in the way of PT is inconsistent, which makes it harder to be effective, and in turn frustrating - actually detracts from his overall happiness - which in my opinion, if he were able to get a consistent 30+ minutes a game, and his production began to soar - he'd be happier in general, and that would translate to other areas of his life. He needs to feel good about himself - and basketball is the 1 thing that can help in that area. To not start, and sit behind a player you know you are better than, and the numbers bear it out significantly - is a mindf$ck.
So, give him playing time in the hope that it will make him a better teammate and more responsible person rather than rewarding him with playing time for being reliable, responsible, etc. I want MU to win too, Ners, but I respectfully submit you have the process backwards.
Quote from: tower912 on December 13, 2013, 03:41:29 PM
FWIW, I have been on the 'time-to-start-Todd-Mayo' kick for a year now. I think it is time to start him at SG and bring Jake off of the bench. But I don't like seeing JT slagged.
Todd's gotta get outta the doghouse before he sees significant time in my opinion. If we aren't sure we can rely on him being available to play night in and night out, give the minutes to JJJ and Deonte.
I know that Todd dictates the amount of PT Todd gets.
Quote from: tower912 on December 13, 2013, 03:41:29 PM
FWIW, I have been on the 'time-to-start-Todd-Mayo' kick for a year now. I think it is time to start him at SG and bring Jake off of the bench. But I don't like seeing JT slagged.
I agree that Mayo should be starting. And Thomas deserves our respect. Save for the couple ex Warriors who post here Jake Thomas would kick all of our a$$es on a basketball court.
Quote from: keefe on December 13, 2013, 04:08:17 PM
I agree that Mayo should be starting. And Thomas deserves our respect. Save for the couple ex Warriors who post here Jake Thomas would kick all of our a$$es on a basketball court.
Indeed. I once played with this guy at the Y who played for North Dakota State (or just North Dakota, can't remember), and it was insane. Even this Serbian kid who was always dominant in pick up games there was getting schooled. And ND State is a low-major DI school. I can't imagine the gap between guys like us and Jake Thomas.
Anyway, can we please stop the DWilson bashing? There are so many threads on it that it is becoming annoying. I would almost welcome a Crean-bashing thread at this point.
Quote from: ElDonBDon on December 13, 2013, 05:38:47 PM
Indeed. I once played with this guy at the Y who played for North Dakota State (or just North Dakota, can't remember), and it was insane. Even this Serbian kid who was always dominant in pick up games there was getting schooled. And ND State is a low-major DI school. I can't imagine the gap between guys like us and Jake Thomas.
Anyway, can we please stop the DWilson bashing? There are so many threads on it that it is becoming annoying. I would almost welcome a Crean-bashing thread at this point.
OK, here goes: Crean is a self promoting prima donna,
Quote from: willie warrior on December 13, 2013, 07:21:09 PM
OK, here goes: Crean is a self promoting prima donna,
And a creepy Tweeting, son Frenching, soccer stadium donation oathbreaker!
Quote from: Guns n Ammo on December 13, 2013, 10:47:10 AM
Derrick will start every game (barring injury) and MU will make the tournament.
If you disagree, let's make it interesting.
(this invitation is open to anybody).
Exactly Derrick at point Guard is a .500 team headed to the NIT at best.
He cant shoot the 1,2 or 3 Pointer to a rate that even requires a defender. Does not even create for other players and the pain is packed with his defender and ox or otules defender because The sag off him so much. Its insane the kid plays over 35 minutes a game and hasnt made a shot from further than 2 Feet from the basket. Even Dawson hit a 3 Pointer and is a threat to make them.
His defense isnt so world renoun either he got torched by Carson of ASU and got 29 from Thames in the Wooden Championship. Him and Jake Thomas need to be back ups. There is no team worth talking about that Marquette is going to beat this year with this back court. Id honestly let Duane, JJJ or Dawson have the Back Court let them go
Thru the bumps and burises and grow together because the guys getting 30 plus minutes
A night have us at 5-4 and were not playing grambling again.....
Quote from: Nevada233 on December 13, 2013, 08:12:25 PM
Exactly Derrick at point Guard is a .500 team headed to the NIT at best.
He cant shoot the 1,2 or 3 Pointer to a rate that even requires a defender. Does not even create for other players and the pain is packed with his defender and ox or otules defender because The sag off him so much. Its insane the kid plays over 35 minutes a game and hasnt made a shot from further than 2 Feet from the basket. Even Dawson hit a 3 Pointer and is a threat to make them.
His defense isnt so world renoun either he got torched by Carson of ASU and got 29 from Thames in the Wooden Championship. Him and Jake Thomas need to be back ups. There is no team worth talking about that Marquette is going to beat this year with this back court. Id honestly let Duane, JJJ or Dawson have the Back Court let them go
Thru the bumps and burises and grow together because the guys getting 30 plus minutes
A night have us at 5-4 and were not playing grambling again.....
Soooo, you want to make a bet?
I'm talking NCAA tournament.
Derrick will start every game (barring injury) and they will make the NCAA tournament.
Well the moratorium sure lasted long....
Quote from: Ners on December 13, 2013, 03:23:33 PM
Actually Buzz runs a MUCH tighter ship than most coaches, and Mayos transgressions at a lot of programs wouldn't even be much cause for drama - as far as getting ruled academically ineligible, being late for ONE practice in 2.5 years, and having to sit out 1/2 of a game at WVU with 3 other teammates who did the same thing. These aren't felonies and to suggest Mayo likely wouldn't still be around at other programs is totally ludicrous. Aki was trying to get him to Memphis and I can promise if Todd decided to transfer there would be plenty of schools seeking his services. This whole narrative of Todd being such a bad kid/teammate is totally overblown by our overly self righteous.
And you know for a fact that Mayo has never been late for practice and Buzz suspended him for his first miss. Doubt it and it isn't logical. It is more likely that Mayo has been late for multiple practices or this was just the third strike.
Quote from: Guns n Ammo on December 13, 2013, 09:34:03 PM
Soooo, you want to make a bet?
I'm talking NCAA tournament.
Derrick will start every game (barring injury) and they will make the NCAA tournament.
No way. No bet. No one will start over de wilson.
Quote from: Nevada233 on December 14, 2013, 02:27:42 PM
No way. No bet. No one will start over de wilson.
But in your odd basketball world, that means they would go to the NIT and you would win the bet.
Way to go genius.
Quote from: NavinRJohnson on December 14, 2013, 02:34:28 PM
But in your odd basketball world, that means they would go to the NIT and you would win the bet.
Way to go genius.
Just as smart as you are for thinking hes a superstar.
Quote from: Nevada233 on December 14, 2013, 02:45:06 PM
Just as smart as you are for thinking hes a superstar.
More brilliance. Well done. Take the next week if you need it, and find where I have said anything even approaching that. In fact see if you can find anywhere I've said much of anything at all about him. It's a good try though.
Quote from: NavinRJohnson on December 14, 2013, 02:48:53 PM
More brilliance. Well done. Take the next week if you need it, and find where I have said anything even approaching that. In fact see if you can find anywhere I've said much of anything at all about him. It's a good try though.
Theres no need to get bent outta shape were fans of the same team. I honestly admire everyones compassion and opinions. Good game today enjoy. Go warriors.
Can we put this Dawson stuff to bed? He has struggled to do anything against IUPUI, and people want him playing ahead of De Wilson against the likes of Wisconsin? Anyone find it the least bit interesting that Jamil runs the point when Dawson is in the game?
Quote from: NavinRJohnson on December 14, 2013, 03:34:32 PM
Can we put this Dawson stuff to bed? He has struggled to do anything against IUPUI, and people want him playing ahead of De Wilson against the likes of Wisconsin? Anyone find it the least bit interesting that Jamil runs the point when Dawson is in the game?
But you're forgetting numerous things:
1. Dawson was SO GOOD against grambling.
2. Dawson makes those "wow" passes that De Wil doesn't attempt.
3. Dawson isn't being given 30 min/game he needs to show he's better.
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 14, 2013, 03:51:29 PM
But you're forgetting numerous things:
1. Dawson was SO GOOD against grambling.
2. Dawson makes those "wow" passes that De Wil doesn't attempt.
3. Dawson isn't being given 30 min/game he needs to show he's better.
Unless Duane has an impact, we will need Derrick. Team is much more offensive minded and efficient with Jamil at point and maybe even better defensively (as a team) because of his length.
But it will be interesting when we face quick guards who know how to press. I think Derrick will probably need to be on the floor then.
Quote from: NavinRJohnson on December 14, 2013, 03:34:32 PM
Can we put this Dawson stuff to bed? He has struggled to do anything against IUPUI, and people want him playing ahead of De Wilson against the likes of Wisconsin? Anyone find it the least bit interesting that Jamil runs the point when Dawson is in the game?
First, Derrick should start and play very nice minutes until Duane proves something(if anything at all, we don't know yet) but you say that you are not calling Derrick great. Maybe not, but you do defend him and awful lot.
Jamil did not run the point with Dawson today. Dawson played off the ball vs Wisco that's it.
Dawson is GREAT at the entry feeds to guys like Davante.
Derrick is awful at setting our bigs up.
That said, right now that is Dawson's only really advantage. Derrick should play over him. But with derricks passing style and playing him with guys who can't their shots...we are fu cked
Derrick with Deonte jamil Ox Todd and some Juan too. Can be VERY good.
Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on December 14, 2013, 06:58:53 PM
First, Derrick should start and play very nice minutes until Duane proves something(if anything at all, we don't know yet) but you say that you are not calling Derrick great. Maybe not, but you do defend him and awful lot.
You must have me confused with someone else. I don't recall commenting on him much one way or the other.
Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on December 14, 2013, 06:58:53 PM
Jamil did not run the point with Dawson today. Dawson played off the ball vs Wisco that's it.
Cleraly you watched a different game.
Jamil and Dawson shared the duties when they were both in.
Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on December 14, 2013, 06:58:53 PM
Jamil did not run the point with Dawson today. Dawson played off the ball vs Wisco that's it.
Dawson is GREAT at the entry feeds to guys like Davante.
Dawson started with the point. Then he had an awful TO on his first trip down the court. He was switched to 2 guard and Jamil ran the point for the rest of the time. It wasn't until Buzz started sitting Jamil that Dawson took over the point again.
Dawson did have one great entry pass to Davante. Small sample size there. But I like the potential. I hope he can develop into a solid backup pg
Jamil at point is a great option , Buzz always gets the most from his option of players. Think Magic Johnson (6'9" at point). As far as Dawson he is a nice backup but I don't see him being a floor leader as a frosh.
I haven't read all of the previous posts but I would like to get my thoughts in.
I think it might be a little extreme to say we will miss the tournament because Derrick plays too many minutes. There are a lot more factors that need to go into a prediction like that. Remember, without his defensive contributions last year, we would not have made it to the elite 8.
As far as Derrick being offensively useless, I would say he has definitely improved from past years. 4 assists per game this year leads the team, that's at least 8 points. He has driven to the basket with some success as well. I am perfectly fine with him being a facilitator who takes care of the ball and does not take jump shots.
Of course, he is a defense first type of player, there's no denying it, and I'd like to see John, Duane, and Jamil get a bigger dose of minutes at the point as the season progresses.
Quote from: MUtbone on December 15, 2013, 01:47:28 AM
I am perfectly fine with him being a facilitator who takes care of the ball and does not take jump shots.
One of Dawson's assists yesterday illustrates the main problem with Derrick Wilson. At one point Dawson caught the ball on the wing and the defender doubling on Gardner flew out to guard Dawson, who threw a simple entry pass back to Gardner for the easy one on one bucket. That's a pass Derrick Wilson can't make because no defender is going to fly out to guard him when he has the ball at the 3 point line.
That said, I still think Derrick should start, but I like how he was used yesterday, with lesser minutes and other players rotating through to give us multiple looks.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 14, 2013, 11:19:23 PM
Dawson started with the point. Then he had an awful TO on his first trip down the court. He was switched to 2 guard and Jamil ran the point for the rest of the time. It wasn't until Buzz started sitting Jamil that Dawson took over the point again.
Dawson did have one great entry pass to Davante. Small sample size there. But I like the potential. I hope he can develop into a solid backup pg
No he didn't switch. After that bucket he was still the guy who brought it up. Just because he passed it to jamil at the top and jamil swung it to him before feeding OX
Doesn't mean Jamil was running the show.
Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on December 15, 2013, 10:10:52 AM
No he didn't switch. After that bucket he was still the guy who brought it up. Just because he passed it to jamil at the top and jamil swung it to him before feeding OX
Doesn't mean Jamil was running the show.
Again, clearly you watched a different game. Seemingly one where you saw what you wanted to see. Jamil brought the ball up and 'ran the show' several sucsEssive trips while Dawson was in the game. It wasnt passed to him on top.
When Derrick leaves the game, it seems there is less of a true PG on the floor. I thought Jamil did most of the ball handling when Dawson was in, and all three freshmen were guilty of some sloppy passing while in the game. But the ball movement was great while Derrick sat (it was better than usual while he as in the game, too). I think Buzz is getting close to the guard rotation he is looking for.
I think sitting more will benefit Derrick, too. If he's on the floor all the time the defense can settle in with their packing the middle with his man defense. If he is in and out the defense will have to switch more often, and that constant changing should result in teams playing Derrick a little tighter and perhaps allowing him some lanes to penetrate.
Derrick can play all he wants if Juan has a game like yesterday. Then they will be fine. You need scoring from the outside, Juan brought it yesterday. Thomas had 6 and Mayo had 8 so
that is help as well, but 11 from Juan is a bigger difference. Lets see them score against New Mexico next week. They are a big slow team, there bigs are as slow as MU's. That is a winnable game.
Quote from: CTWarrior on December 15, 2013, 07:20:21 AM
One of Dawson's assists yesterday illustrates the main problem with Derrick Wilson. At one point Dawson caught the ball on the wing and the defender doubling on Gardner flew out to guard Dawson, who threw a simple entry pass back to Gardner for the easy one on one bucket. That's a pass Derrick Wilson can't make because no defender is going to fly out to guard him when he has the ball at the 3 point line.
That said, I still think Derrick should start, but I like how he was used yesterday, with lesser minutes and other players rotating through to give us multiple looks.
That entry pass alone.. was what we dont have consistently... Dawson had a bad turnover but so did jake on a dump down to otule.. if we want to nit pick... i like what he will be...
Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on December 15, 2013, 10:10:52 AM
No he didn't switch. After that bucket he was still the guy who brought it up. Just because he passed it to jamil at the top and jamil swung it to him before feeding OX
Doesn't mean Jamil was running the show.
I think you watched a different game than I did...
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 15, 2013, 03:19:54 PM
I think you watched a different game than I did...
bummer
I watched the one where we won by 36.
You probably watched Derricks goose egg vs Wisconsin
Or was the goose egg a recurring theme?
Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on December 15, 2013, 03:27:21 PM
bummer
I watched the one where we won by 36.
You probably watched Derricks goose egg vs Wisconsin
Or was the goose egg a recurring theme?
Changing the subject is typically another way of saying, "you're right, I was wrong." I appreciate your honesty.
Quote from: NavinRJohnson on December 15, 2013, 03:49:40 PM
Changing the subject is typically another way of saying, "you're right, I was wrong." I appreciate your honesty.
How did I change the subject?
You drunk?
Dawson didn't show enough against IUPUI to warrant play in conference. Unless DuWilson in the answer, DeWilson should continue to get 35.
Quote from: HaywardsHeroes32 on December 15, 2013, 03:27:21 PM
bummer
I watched the one where we won by 36.
You probably watched Derricks goose egg vs Wisconsin
Or was the goose egg a recurring theme?
I too watched the game where we won by 36 points, you know the one where Dawson ran the point once and turned it over so Jamil take over and ran the point until Buzz pulled him because we were up by 40
Quote from: tower912 on December 15, 2013, 04:08:09 PM
Dawson didn't show enough against IUPUI to warrant play in conference. Unless DuWilson in the answer, DeWilson should continue to get 35.
Agree 100%. I'd love to see Dawson help out if Duane can't, but he clearly isn't there yet. And if Duane isn't ready, Derrick will continue to get huge minutes.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 15, 2013, 07:00:18 PM
I too watched the game where we won by 36 points, you know the one where Dawson ran the point once and turned it over so Jamil take over and ran the point until Buzz pulled him because we were up by 40
This is definitely what happened. A couple guys pointed it out in the game chat as it was happening
Quote from: tower912 on December 15, 2013, 04:08:09 PM
Dawson didn't show enough against IUPUI to warrant play in conference. Unless DuWilson in the answer, DeWilson should continue to get 35.
Agree on Dawson, but Jamil will get some of Derrick's minutes going forward.
Just to clarify....Dawson wasn't pulled off being point guard while Jamil was in the game - they alternated, and generally it was a matter of who was in a better outlet position, and Jamil also pulled down a number of rebounds where he just brought the ball up the floor.
Love how all the Derrick bandwagon are so quick to say - Dawson didn't show enough against IUPUI to warrant being ready for conference play - well, what did Derrick show against IUPUI, 0 points in 22 minutes, 5 assists?
Derrick has shown me over the course of 10 games, 8 of which he got MAX minutes, virtually nothing - save for 1 decent game against ASU - although he got lit up by Carson and Thames for SDSU.
***Any of you ever think its ironic that the 2 games Derrick played the least - Grambling and now IUPUI (who isn't nearly as bad as Grambling), our offense has posted its best numbers??***
Quote from: Ners on December 17, 2013, 11:24:33 AM
Just to clarify....Dawson wasn't pulled off being point guard while Jamil was in the game - they alternated, and generally it was a matter of who was in a better outlet position, and Jamil also pulled down a number of rebounds where he just brought the ball up the floor.
That's what I saw as well Ners. But......what I also saw (twice by my count) was Jamil bringing the ball up, looking JD's way, then looking and passing elsewhere, even though JD was open on the wing. Since it happened twice, it struck me as something to think about.
Quote from: Ners on December 17, 2013, 11:24:33 AM***Any of you ever think its ironic that the 2 games Derrick played the least - Grambling and now IUPUI (who isn't nearly as bad as Grambling), our offense has posted its best numbers??***
LOL...I'm glad you brought that up, because Derrick's limited minutes were specifically because we had a massive lead in the early going and didn't need him in there, giving Buzz a chance to experiment with the guys he doesn't really want at point (as minutes indicate) but has to play there in short stints to give Derrick a blow.
Ironic? Hardly. It's indicative of how bad the teams were we were playing that we didn't need Derrick in extended minutes. Also not ironic is you giving way too much credence to player performances against the weakest opposition we've played all year. Expected, rather.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 17, 2013, 11:49:52 AM
LOL...I'm glad you brought that up, because Derrick's limited minutes were specifically because we had a massive lead in the early going and didn't need him in there, giving Buzz a chance to experiment with the guys he doesn't really want at point (as minutes indicate) but has to play there in short stints to give Derrick a blow.
Ironic? Hardly. It's indicative of how bad the teams were we were playing that we didn't need Derrick in extended minutes. Also not ironic is you giving way too much credence to player performances against the weakest opposition we've played all year. Expected, rather.
Perhaps the bolded is a fair point, and I won't argue against that. But, I will argue that it has been hard for me to find how DeWill has been such an asset to the team while in the game, when the statistics and Sugar's season stats provided just a week ago, show Derrick to be the clear, last place finisher, as far as Efficiency is concerned. You'd think if a guy were an asset, he wouldn't be a clear last place finisher by every statistical measure all of his teammates are also being bench marked against.
But hey, what do I know. He plays great defense. As evidenced by Carson and Thames lighting him up for 23+.
I cannot believe this bullsh*t has been brought up again. Magic Dawson simply isn't better than Derrick Wilson. Derrick Wilson is the best PG on Marquette's roster. Derrick Wilson should get the bulk of the minutes there until someone actually shows they can do more. And Magic didn't show that one bit against IUPUI.
Quote from: Ners on December 17, 2013, 12:08:59 PM
But hey, what do I know.
Not much.
Quote from: Ners on December 17, 2013, 11:24:33 AM
***Any of you ever think its ironic that the 2 games Derrick played the least - Grambling and now IUPUI (who isn't nearly as bad as Grambling), our offense has posted its best numbers??***
DAVANTE ONLY PLAYED 14 MINUTES AGAINST GRAMBLING WHEN WE HAD OUR BEST OFFENSIVE OUTPUT!!! OBVIOUSLY WE NEED TO PLAY DAVANTE LESS!!!!!
As a first-year starter, Derrick has been more efficient on offense than Junior was as a junior and only slightly lower than he was as a senior.
Meanwhile, Dawson has BY FAR the lowest offensive efficiency on the team, 14 points lower than Wilson. But what does Ken Pomeroy know. He only makes hay analyzing every player and team in Division I basketball.
Quote from: Ners on December 17, 2013, 11:24:33 AM
Just to clarify....Dawson wasn't pulled off being point guard while Jamil was in the game - they alternated, and generally it was a matter of who was in a better outlet position, and Jamil also pulled down a number of rebounds where he just brought the ball up the floor.
Love how all the Derrick bandwagon are so quick to say - Dawson didn't show enough against IUPUI to warrant being ready for conference play - well, what did Derrick show against IUPUI, 0 points in 22 minutes, 5 assists?
Derrick has shown me over the course of 10 games, 8 of which he got MAX minutes, virtually nothing - save for 1 decent game against ASU - although he got lit up by Carson and Thames for SDSU.
***Any of you ever think its ironic that the 2 games Derrick played the least - Grambling and now IUPUI (who isn't nearly as bad as Grambling), our offense has posted its best numbers??***
Ners
I am well aware of Derrick's limitations. But, again, what is it about Dawson that makes you so enamored of him? He's young, inexperienced, didn't really play top notch competition in high school, wasn't ranked in the top 125 out of high school and hasn't distinguished himself on the court yet at MU. If Burton or JJJ played the point I could see the "controversy" but Dawson gives no indication to me that he's remotely ready. Am I missing something?
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on December 17, 2013, 12:14:37 PMI cannot believe this bullsh*t has been brought up again.
Really Sultan, really? You cannot believe this has been brought up again? You do realize who is beating this drum, right? The same guy that would still be trying to argue Vander vs Davante if only Blue had come back for his senior season.
Be honest...you knew it would be brought up again. Just like you now know this isn't the last time we'll have this discussion. My money says it doesn't end until Derrick graduates ;)
Quote from: Ners on December 17, 2013, 11:24:33 AM
***Any of you ever think its ironic that the 2 games Derrick played the least - Grambling and now IUPUI (who isn't nearly as bad as Grambling), our offense has posted its best numbers??***
IUPUI's current realtime RPI is 288. Regardless of the fact that Grambling is even worse, we got our best offensive production against them - with Derrick playing fewer minutes - because IUPUI stinks...not because Magic Dawson took over.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 17, 2013, 12:18:26 PM
As a first-year starter, Derrick has been more efficient on offense than Junior was as a junior and only slightly lower than he was as a senior.
Meanwhile, Dawson has BY FAR the lowest offensive efficiency on the team, 14 points lower than Wilson. But what does Ken Pomeroy know. He only makes hay analyzing every player and team in Division I basketball.
Fair enough - and we all know Junior took a ton of sh$t here as a Junior, and to an extent as a senior. Sorry, different strokes for different folks - I just like Dawson's game better than Derrick's.
Quote from: Ners on December 17, 2013, 12:22:54 PM
Fair enough - and we all know Junior took a ton of sh$t here as a Junior, and to an extent as a senior. Sorry, different strokes for different folks - I just like Dawson's game better than Derrick's.
Ners, Derrick is a nice floor leader, rebounds a little, plays D, but that is it. Not really a good passer, can not shoot at all, yes, he can make a lay-up once in awhile. Dawson is young and
has not played against top competition yet, needs a year of seasoning, if Duane was healthy, he should have red-shirted. In the long run, he will be a much better player than Derrick.
Remember one thing, Buzz loves Derrick. Dawson will be much improved his sophomore year.
I admit...I feel sorry for John. He seems to have a lot of upside and over the next 2-4 years should develop into a really nice player for us. And I say 2-4 not because I think he's an early entrant candidate but because I think it won't be until sometime in his sophomore season at the earliest that he really becomes an impact player. Anyway...this Magic Dawson label, while hilarious, is completely unfair. I guess that's what happens when one Superfan anoints you because of one pass you made in the lane against Grambling.
(No doubt a handful of other plays will be mentioned, but a ridiculously small sample size for all the acclaim he garners from some corners)
I truly wish the best for John and can't wait to see him develop as a player to the point where he not only earns minutes but is good enough to demand them.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 17, 2013, 12:19:01 PM
Ners
I am well aware of Derrick's limitations. But, again, what is it about Dawson that makes you so enamored of him? He's young, inexperienced, didn't really play top notch competition in high school, wasn't ranked in the top 125 out of high school and hasn't distinguished himself on the court yet at MU. If Burton or JJJ played the point I could see the "controversy" but Dawson gives no indication to me that he's remotely ready. Am I missing something?
I just feel Dawson's ceiling is much higher than Derrick's. We've only gotten very limited looks at Dawson. He's performed similarly in to Derrick in the games he's gotten comparable minutes. The difference being, Dawson is only 4 months into the MU program, Derrick about 30+ months. Dawson is a much more fluid athlete, has shown great vision and feel for the transition game, passing angles, and in general just much greater creativity as a PG than Derrick.
Derrick is a very serviceable back-up type caliber PG at this level. Think Dawson can be a very effective PG - maybe we won't see it this year, but I suspect (if Dawson sticks around) that by his Junior year, he'll look drastically different than what we've seen out of Derrick thus far as a Junior.
All this said, I know Derrick is a great kid, hard worker, high character guy - and that is worth something for sure.
Quote from: CTWarrior on December 15, 2013, 07:20:21 AM
One of Dawson's assists yesterday illustrates the main problem with Derrick Wilson. At one point Dawson caught the ball on the wing and the defender doubling on Gardner flew out to guard Dawson, who threw a simple entry pass back to Gardner for the easy one on one bucket. That's a pass Derrick Wilson can't make because no defender is going to fly out to guard him when he has the ball at the 3 point line.
That said, I still think Derrick should start, but I like how he was used yesterday, with lesser minutes and other players rotating through to give us multiple looks.
That was a very nice entry pass. However, if you are going to determine the starting point guard on the basis of one pass JJJ had a significantly nicer pass in the the second half.
Quote from: Ners on December 17, 2013, 12:30:37 PM
Derrick is a very serviceable back-up type caliber PG at this level. Think Dawson can be a very effective PG - maybe we won't see it this year, but I suspect (if Dawson sticks around) that by his Junior year, he'll look drastically different than what we've seen out of Derrick thus far as a Junior.
I think that very well might be the case. But what does that have to do with *right now?*
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on December 17, 2013, 12:33:54 PM
I think that very well might be the case. But what does that have to do with *right now?*
Just think that you have a guy with a lot of potential in Dawson, that could improve a ton if given more minutes, and perhaps help the team achieve a higher ceiling come March.
Nonetheless, as long as Buzz pairs Derrick less with Jake, Otule and possbily Juan (he looked good last game of course), we can still be okay. Just need Derrick on floor with better offensive players, as it will help negate some of his limitations.
If you were an opposing coach facing our starting lineup - who are you going to look to take away? Clearly Jamil. Makes Jamil's life much tougher. Think Jamil has looked better of late, largely due to playing more minutes with more talented offensive guys - Gardner, Mayo, Burton, on the floor along with Derrick.
Derrick has already exceeded my expectations for him.
Quote from: Ners on December 17, 2013, 12:39:43 PM
Just think that you have a guy with a lot of potential in Dawson, that could improve a ton if given more minutes, and perhaps help the team achieve a higher ceiling come March.
John Dawson will get the minutes he earns everyday.
/end scene.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on December 17, 2013, 01:00:48 PM
Derrick has already exceeded my expectations for him.
You must have had pretty lofty goals for him lol!! Worst offensive PG I have seen in my 33 years watching MU.
Quote from: mubuzz on December 17, 2013, 02:53:40 PM
You must have had pretty lofty goals for him lol!! Worst offensive PG I have seen in my 33 years watching MU.
Off the top of my head, 3rd best defensive point guard in 33 years (behind Dominique James and maybe Tony Miller).
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 17, 2013, 03:10:38 PM
Off the top of my head, 3rd best defensive point guard in 33 years (behind Dominique James and maybe Tony Miller).
Don't forget about Mandy Johnson--a real steal stud defensively.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 17, 2013, 03:10:38 PM
Off the top of my head, 3rd best defensive point guard in 33 years (behind Dominique James and maybe Tony Miller).
While I agree he is above average defensively, I don't feel he is this lock down defender some make him out to be and top 3 all time is really a pretty big stretch. He hasn't shut down the good PG's he's guarded this year and on at least 2 occasions was a defensive sieve.
Quote from: bilsu on December 17, 2013, 12:31:11 PM
That was a very nice entry pass. However, if you are going to determine the starting point guard on the basis of one pass JJJ had a significantly nicer pass in the the second half.
I actually agree that Derrick Wilson at this point is our best bet. Just lamenting that we don't get that kind of pass from our regular PG, as there was absolutely nothing special about that pass. It is standard PG 101 type stuff that is made possible by the defense respecting what the passer might do.
Quote from: willie warrior on December 17, 2013, 03:17:57 PM
Don't forget about Mandy Johnson--a real steal stud defensively.
+1
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on December 17, 2013, 12:33:54 PM
I think that very well might be the case. But what does that have to do with *right now?*
And that is the key. Whether Dawson's eventual upside is higher than Derrick's is irrelevant. The only relevant factor is which guy is going to help this year's team more
right now. The answer - even though many here don't want to hear it - is Derrick.
There are only two possibilities why Dawson is not playing:
1. He has not shown Buzz he should play significant minutes, or
2. Buzz hates this board and will stubbornly not play Dawson just to spite the Dawson supporters on MUScoop.
I believe 1. is correct, but I could see Buzz becoming stubborn about this, so I will not put 2. in teal.
Quote from: CTWarrior on December 17, 2013, 03:22:40 PM
I actually agree that Derrick Wilson at this point is our best bet. Just lamenting that we don't get that kind of pass from our regular PG, as there was absolutely nothing special about that pass. It is standard PG 101 type stuff that is made possible by the defense respecting what the passer might do.
We DO get that kind of pass from Derrick. The level of selective amnesia on this board regarding Derrick is unbelievable. Maybe you are just being hyperbolic, or do you really believe that of Derrick's 41 assists, there have been none that have been a standard post entry pass to either Chris or DG?
Quote from: willie warrior on December 17, 2013, 03:17:57 PM
Don't forget about Mandy Johnson--a real steal stud defensively.
Good catch Willie. Mandy was a stud defensively. I stand corrected.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on December 17, 2013, 04:33:03 PM
We DO get that kind of pass from Derrick. The level of selective amnesia on this board regarding Derrick is unbelievable. Maybe you are just being hyperbolic, or do you really believe that of Derrick's 41 assists, there have been none that have been a standard post entry pass to either Chris or DG?
I'm sure that there have been a handful of entry passes to the post from Derrick. I think his issue is he doesn't create for others and 90% of his assists come from standing on the perimeter and passing to someone for a long jumpshot. That is where he gets his assists.
Quote from: mubuzz on December 17, 2013, 05:41:47 PM
I'm sure that there have been a handful of entry passes to the post from Derrick. I think his issue is he doesn't create for others and 90% of his assists come from standing on the perimeter and passing to someone for a long jumpshot. That is where he gets his assists.
I'd love to see where you got this information...mostly because this team can't shoot all that well from distance.
Lots of discussion continuously about Derrick and Dawson. Frankly, I haven't seen enough of Dawson to form an opinion of him, and Buzz does not play him much. Frankly, I have seen plenty of Derrick. He is what he is: a back up role player that should play 10-15 minutes per game. The fact that he plays more is the Coach's decision. You know--in Buzz we trust.
What about Du. Wilson? Will Buzz ever give him a shot? I am beginning to wonder. At any rate, it is kind of interesting that Derrick's minutes are now being eaten up somewhat by Jamil. Strange to say the least.
Quote from: willie warrior on December 17, 2013, 06:07:20 PM
What about Du. Wilson? Will Buzz ever give him a shot? I am beginning to wonder.
Were you unaware that he was injured?
Quote from: willie warrior on December 17, 2013, 06:07:20 PM
What about Du. Wilson? Will Buzz ever give him a shot? I am beginning to wonder. At any rate, it is kind of interesting that Derrick's minutes are now being eaten up somewhat by Jamil. Strange to say the least.
Announcers said during the game tonight that he "didn't look anywhere near 100%" My guess is Buzz is still weighing his options with the medical redshirt
Derrick had a nice game tonight and maybe the first of many who knows? Dawson is still learning the ropes.
Quote from: raul on December 17, 2013, 11:21:07 PM
Derrick had a nice game tonight and maybe the first of many who knows? Dawson is still learning the ropes.
Wilson is the present
Dawson is the Future... Pretty much
Ball State defended Derrick Wilson like he was a regular PG tonight, guarding him closely all aorund the floor, and he was able to use that to penetrate. Let's hope more defenses play him like that.
Derrick played a great game last night. Anybody saying otherwise is a total buffoon.
Wow, great that we had De Wilson guard the ASU guard or he might have scored 59 rather than 29....
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 17, 2013, 03:10:38 PM
Off the top of my head, 3rd best defensive point guard in 33 years (behind Dominique James and maybe Tony Miller).
Anybody who watched last night's game and still thinks Dawson is a better option AT THIS TIME needs to turn in their basketball fan card.
Quote from: TAMU Eagle on December 17, 2013, 10:37:23 PM
Announcers said during the game tonight that he "didn't look anywhere near 100%" My guess is Buzz is still weighing his options with the medical redshirt
Actually it would just be a regular redshirt for Duane at this point.
Quote from: madtownwarrior on December 18, 2013, 06:47:42 AM
Wow, great that we had De Wilson guard the ASU guard or he might have scored 59 rather than 29....
Jahii Carson only scored 23 points, which was 1 point below his season average at that time.
What I assume you meant was the SDSU guard Xavier Thames might have scored 59. Derick wasn't the only one guarding him and the kid went 5/6 from 3 and 10/11 from the stripe. He just couldn't be stopped that night. Derrick did hold him to 2/10 on 2P FG
Quote from: CTWarrior on December 18, 2013, 06:13:11 AM
Ball State defended Derrick Wilson like he was a regular PG tonight, guarding him closely all aorund the floor, and he was able to use that to penetrate. Let's hope more defenses play him like that.
I saw that too, and was shocked - and it definitely helped Derrick be more effective. Although Ball State did give him that wide open 3 - and I'm glad he took it - you HAVE to take that shot if teams are going to dare you to shoot, leave you that wide open. To be a PG that is a total non-threat from the perimeter kills an offense.
Derrick played a very nice game last night - and loved his usage of 23 minutes. Let's hope his production can continue against the higher level opponents, as Ball State was a sub 200 RPI team with a 5'7" PG.
Posted on another board:
So far this year, Derrick has 37 assists in 271 minutes. That's one every 7.32 minutes. Last year Junior had 133 assists in 982 minutes. One every 7.38 minutes. All with having a A/TO ratio of 2.8...Junior's was 1.5.
Derrick's OR right now is 98.7. Junior's was 96.2. This despite the fact that Junior was a better shooter and scored more points. And of course Derrick is a much better defender than Junior was.
Now of course Derrick's numbers may fade as we get into BE play, but he has been much better than he has been given credit for.
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on December 18, 2013, 10:03:40 AM
Posted on another board:
So far this year, Derrick has 37 assists in 271 minutes. That's one every 7.32 minutes. Last year Junior had 133 assists in 982 minutes. One every 7.38 minutes. All with having a A/TO ratio of 2.8...Junior's was 1.5.
Derrick's OR right now is 98.7. Junior's was 96.2. This despite the fact that Junior was a better shooter and scored more points. And of course Derrick is a much better defender than Junior was.
Now of course Derrick's numbers may fade as we get into BE play, but he has been much better than he has been given credit for.
But the offense flows better with (insert player).
Now to be fair, Junior had many more steals than Derrick has, and that coupled with Vander leaving is why we haven't had the fast break points that we did last year. But that's because Derrick is a better positional defender. He doesn't take those risks.
A good example of this is that dumbass Fox analyst last night, who said that Deonte is a good defender because he has 14 steals or something like that. While that's nice and all, anybody can watch just a few minutes of any game to see that Deonte is a below average defender at this point. Steals have never been a good measure of how good defensively a player is. Good defensive players can get a lot of steals (Vander, Juan) and bad defensive players can get a lot of steals (Junior, Deonte).
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on December 18, 2013, 10:03:40 AM
Posted on another board:
So far this year, Derrick has 37 assists in 271 minutes. That's one every 7.32 minutes. Last year Junior had 133 assists in 982 minutes. One every 7.38 minutes. All with having a A/TO ratio of 2.8...Junior's was 1.5.
Derrick's OR right now is 98.7. Junior's was 96.2. This despite the fact that Junior was a better shooter and scored more points. And of course Derrick is a much better defender than Junior was.
Now of course Derrick's numbers may fade as we get into BE play, but he has been much better than he has been given credit for.
Interesting analysis. Will be interesting to see what happens when we enter the watered down Big East, as Derrick's numbers against the high level teams have left a lot to be desired - thankfully - he won't have to face Lville, Cuse, UCONN as Junior did...
Quote from: Ners on December 18, 2013, 11:06:46 AM
Interesting analysis. Will be interesting to see what happens when we enter the watered down Big East, as Derrick's numbers against the high level teams have left a lot to be desired - thankfully - he won't have to face Lville, Cuse, UCONN as Junior did...
Junior also had a solid starting SG in Vander, while Derrick has had to deal with Jake at starting SG. Everybody has been saying "defenses have to focus on Jake" -- which might be true to an extent -- but do you think they focus on him anywhere near as much as they did on Vander last year? Hopefully Todd and JJJ will continue to develop into players opposing defenses
really have to focus on, so Derrick has the same cushion Junior often had....
Quote from: GooooMarquette on December 18, 2013, 11:31:42 AM
Junior also had a solid starting SG in Vander, while Derrick has had to deal with Jake at starting SG. Everybody has been saying "defenses have to focus on Jake" -- which might be true to an extent -- but do you think they focus on him anywhere near as much as they did on Vander last year? Hopefully Todd and JJJ will continue to develop into players opposing defenses really have to focus on, so Derrick has the same cushion Junior often had....
Think teams were still content to let Vander shoot from the perimeter based on his prior 2 years of shooting data. Vander scored A LOT of points in transition - a fast break game that we haven't had this year. But, to your point, good players do command some attention (Derrick commands virtually none from the opposition's defense) - which is what makes it even more difficult on a guy like Jamil - playing with the starting lineup we use...Jamil has been playing much better of late, because he's been getting more minutes with Burton, Gardner, Mayo/JJJ...and less with Jake, Derrick, Otule and Juan.
Quote from: Ners on December 18, 2013, 11:46:34 AM
Think teams were still content to let Vander shoot from the perimeter based on his prior 2 years of shooting data.
In November perhaps. Not so much after that.
Quote from: GooooMarquette on December 18, 2013, 11:31:42 AM
Junior also had a solid starting SG in Vander, while Derrick has had to deal with Jake at starting SG. Everybody has been saying "defenses have to focus on Jake" -- which might be true to an extent -- but do you think they focus on him anywhere near as much as they did on Vander last year? Hopefully Todd and JJJ will continue to develop into players opposing defenses really have to focus on, so Derrick has the same cushion Junior often had....
If your point is somehow that defenses focused less on Junior last year than they do on Derrick this year you are flat out wrong. Regardless of who the other guard is, it is obvious that the good teams have much less interest in guarding Derrick Wilson this year than they had in guarding Junior Cadougan last year.
That's why I think that if his numbers are the same as Cadougan's last year, he is performing worse because he is producing those numbers with much less defensive pressure, which in turn means the other guys are facing more defensive pressure. That's why you have to watch the games and not just look at the numbers.
Last night, Ball State defended him straight up most of the game. This plays into MU's hands, because now Derrick becomes a threat, because with tight defensive pressure driving lanes are opened to him. To his credit, he took advantage of them for layups and assists. The other benefit is that the balance of our guys have more room to operate. When teams are not smart enough to sag way off of him, he becomes a useful offensive player.
Jake Thomas, OTOH, is completely stymied by tight defensive coverage, because he can't shake free. He needs for his man to have to help out elsewhere and then receive the kick out for the three. Smart teams will always leave a guy hanging with JT, because that neutralizes him. Those same teams will slough off of Derrick Wilson to help elsewhere until he shows he can make some perimter shots, because thus far, if he has no driving lanes he has no offensive game.
Quote from: CTWarrior on December 18, 2013, 01:33:18 PM
That's why I think that if his numbers are the same as Cadougan's last year, he is performing worse because he is producing those numbers with much less defensive pressure, which in turn means the other guys are facing more defensive pressure. That's why you have to watch the games and not just look at the numbers.
So what #'s would Derrick have to produce to be considered equal to Cadougan?
5% better than Junior? 10% better?
Quote from: Guns n Ammo on December 18, 2013, 01:37:14 PM
So what #'s would Derrick have to produce to be considered equal to Cadougan?
5% better than Junior? 10% better?
My point is that the individual stats don't tell the story. Last night, facing a team playing straight defense on him, if you are so inclined you can take his numbers pretty much at face value and say he had a great game, which he did. On another night, when the defense is sagging off of him and letting him go where he wants to within 15 feet and our interior guys can't get going because of the clogged lane and our 2G isn't getting open looks, if Derrick scores 10 points and has 5 assists that still is not good because his defender is hampering the rest of the team. That's my point. Basketball is not baseball, the numbers for any one guy don't tell the whole story of his value. You have to see how everything fits on the floor.
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on December 18, 2013, 10:03:40 AM
Posted on another board:
So far this year, Derrick has 37 assists in 271 minutes. That's one every 7.32 minutes. Last year Junior had 133 assists in 982 minutes. One every 7.38 minutes. All with having a A/TO ratio of 2.8...Junior's was 1.5.
Derrick's OR right now is 98.7. Junior's was 96.2. This despite the fact that Junior was a better shooter and scored more points. And of course Derrick is a much better defender than Junior was.
Now of course Derrick's numbers may fade as we get into BE play, but he has been much better than he has been given credit for.
Strict numbers don't mean anything. The Bucks brought Junior in for tryouts and were going to bring him in for summer camp (I realize this is partially a local thing), no one would bring in Derrick for the equivalent. There is a giant chasm between the two of them in terms of talent and what they bring to the table.
I'm not saying that makes Derrick, bad, rather Junior was a lot better than people give him credit for. Derrick is serviceable that is it.
Quote from: forgetful on December 18, 2013, 01:49:04 PM
Strict numbers don't mean anything. The Bucks brought Junior in for tryouts and were going to bring him in for summer camp (I realize this is partially a local thing), no one would bring in Derrick for the equivalent. There is a giant chasm between the two of them in terms of talent and what they bring to the table.
I'm not saying that makes Derrick, bad, rather Junior was a lot better than people give him credit for. Derrick is serviceable that is it.
Alright...I give up. Derrick won't get a camp invite in 2015. You have to see how pieces fit on the floor.
I guess subjective self-rationalization is a better judge.
Quote from: CTWarrior on December 18, 2013, 01:33:18 PM
If your point is somehow that defenses focused less on Junior last year than they do on Derrick this year you are flat out wrong. Regardless of who the other guard is, it is obvious that the good teams have much less interest in guarding Derrick Wilson this year than they had in guarding Junior Cadougan last year.
It has nothing with the other team's "interest" in guarding Derrick or Junior...and everything in who the opponent actually focuses on in their defensive scheme.
Last year, any team with a sober coach would have to focus more on Vander than Junior...even if that coach also had "interest" in defending Junior. This year, our starting SG has hardly garnered the kind of respect and attention that Vander did.
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on December 18, 2013, 01:56:47 PM
Alright...I give up. Derrick won't get a camp invite in 2015. You have to see how pieces fit on the floor.
I guess subjective self-rationalization is a better judge.
What part of what I said do you disagree with? You really can't see in some games where his defender ignoring him to help elsewhere might boost his numbers while hurting the team overall?
Quote from: CTWarrior on December 18, 2013, 01:47:05 PM
My point is that the individual stats don't tell the story. Last night, facing a team playing straight defense on him, if you are so inclined you can take his numbers pretty much at face value and say he had a great game, which he did. On another night, when the defense is sagging off of him and letting him go where he wants to within 15 feet and our interior guys can't get going because of the clogged lane and our 2G isn't getting open looks, if Derrick scores 10 points and has 5 assists that still is not good because his defender is hampering the rest of the team. That's my point. Basketball is not baseball, the numbers for any one guy don't tell the whole story of his value. You have to see how everything fits on the floor.
Yea, but doesn't that seem arbitrary?
"Derrick's numbers look good, but it's only because that team didn't guard him."
I don't remember anybody saying that when DJO or Jae would have a great game. Hell, Juan has had 2 good games in a row, and nobody has attributed it to how he is or isn't being guarded.
Derrick certainly has his limitations. He might not be better than Junior. Fine. But, the idea that we can shrug off his statistics because of how he's being guarded seems too arbitrary to me.
Quote from: Ners on December 18, 2013, 11:46:34 AM
Vander scored A LOT of points in transition - a fast break game that we haven't had this year.
Hoping that the defensive focus is changing based on the past two games, particularly with Buzz letting Juan and the freshmen cover some ground and play disruptive defense. Lockdown defense is good, disruptive defense is better since we need the transition opportunities.
Quote from: CTWarrior on December 18, 2013, 02:09:24 PM
What part of what I said do you disagree with? You really can't see in some games where his defender ignoring him to help elsewhere might boost his numbers while hurting the team overall?
I think you are exaggerating the problem.
Marquette is scoring at basically the same rate as they did last year at this time EVEN IF you completely exclude the Grambling State game....slightly under 70 ppg. And they are actually, despite all the doom and gloom around here, shooting about the same overall and *better* from 3.
Does Derrick need to be a threat? No doubt...and he has gotten better in that regard since Ohio State. And yeah I do realize stats don't tell the entire story here, but I think you guys are looking for things that really aren't there.
Quote from: Guns n Ammo on December 18, 2013, 02:11:32 PM
Yea, but doesn't that seem arbitrary?
"Derrick's numbers look good, but it's only because that team didn't guard him."
I don't remember anybody saying that when DJO or Jae would have a great game. Hell, Juan has had 2 good games in a row, and nobody has attributed it to how he is or isn't being guarded.
Derrick certainly has his limitations. He might not be better than Junior. Fine. But, the idea that we can shrug off his statistics because of how he's being guarded seems too arbitrary to me.
Well, that's because you don't get it. Ball State was the first team, I recall, seeing play Derrick straight up, in his face, like you would most good PG's. Idiotically, they didn't sag/help off of him, which benefits the team 2 ways: 1) Derrick is better able to beat a man (albeit a 5'7" 170lbs guard) off the bounce and get into the lane. 2) Less help defense on our bigs and Jake - as when they sag 5' off of Derrick and cram the lane, that causes congestion and makes it difficult for Derrick to penetrate.
I'd LOVE it if teams the rest of the way defend Derrick as Ball State did, because it will make our team (and Derrick) much better.
Quote from: Guns n Ammo on December 18, 2013, 02:11:32 PM
Yea, but doesn't that seem arbitrary?
"Derrick's numbers look good, but it's only because that team didn't guard him."
I don't remember anybody saying that when DJO or Jae would have a great game. Hell, Juan has had 2 good games in a row, and nobody has attributed it to how he is or isn't being guarded.
Derrick certainly has his limitations. He might not be better than Junior. Fine. But, the idea that we can shrug off his statistics because of how he's being guarded seems too arbitrary to me.
I am saying you simply can't say because his numbers are the same as Cadougan's he is performing the same or as well as Cadougan. The situations are different, and to me, the biggest variable is the relative lack of defense Derrick is facing most nights. It is not every night, however. Ball State played him straight up. Maybe it is a little arbitrary, but so far on most nights it is so obvious that it can't be ignored. To some people, the biggest variable is that Vander is better than Jake. I think that is less of an issue because our opponents are keeping a guy on Jake everywhere and it's not like the other team was doubling Vander everywhere (and when they did, it was not usually with Cadougan's man)
I have felt all along that if we could find a way to force the defense to play Derrick straight up, it would open a lot of things up for everybody and we will be a much better offense. I still believe that. I will go on believing that until I see evidence to the contrary. Last night was an example of that, though Ball State wasn't forced to play Derrick straight up. They simply chose to.
Quote from: CTWarrior on December 18, 2013, 02:09:24 PM
What part of what I said do you disagree with? You really can't see in some games where his defender ignoring him to help elsewhere might boost his numbers while hurting the team overall?
If people are sagging off of him, wouldn't it be harder to get assists?
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on December 18, 2013, 02:25:12 PM
I think you are exaggerating the problem.
Well, I suppose I can see where you could believe that from what I wrote. I have no idea what the effect is on the team overall or how to quantify it, and I didn't mean to imply that I could. I do know that it is something and that's why a comparison, to me, of Cadougan's and Wilson's numbers are not apples to apples.
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 18, 2013, 02:44:53 PM
If people are sagging off of him, wouldn't it be harder to get assists?
This is a good question. Other than last night and Grambling, most of the assists I see from Derrick are his usual perimeter to perimeter passes that aren't defended and then the receiver drives and scores or makes a jumper. When you have the ball as much as Derrick does and you throw as many perimeter to perimeter passes as he does, eventually some of them pay off with assists.
I will quit on this topic now. A couple of points that bear repeating.
1. I think Derrick is our best option at the point.
2. I think Derrick is playing better now than he was a month ago.
3. I think Derrick is a plus defender and a plus rebounder.
4. I think Jake Thomas on the floor at the same time as Derrick highlights his shortcomings
5. I think Derrick is a minus offensive player that good teams will take advantage of by doubling Gardner and forcing him further from the basket to get open, much moreso than in previous seasons with Derrick's predecessor.
6. I think limiting his minutes to more of the 25 a game would help Derrick and MU by not allowing the defense to get in the groove of sagging off of him.
7. I think I know a lot about basketball from experience, but I am smart enough to know I doon't know everything.
8. I think I am verbose.
Derrick does not make turnovers, because he does not take chances which elimates assist opportunities.
Quote from: jesmu84 on December 18, 2013, 02:44:53 PM
If people are sagging off of him, wouldn't it be harder to get assists?
Ahh yes, those of the creative variety that good point guards make - not just those that are the result of frequent ball swings, and the ball coming through Derrick at the point most frequently as pointed out by CT Warrior.
Why don't we conduct a fun exercise, and count all of the assists Derrick has the rest of the year that are the result of him driving the basketball, forcing help, where he dumps it off and the player scores without needing a dribble? Junior created those looks frequently for our bigs.
Quote from: CTWarrior on December 18, 2013, 03:06:04 PM
This is a good question. Other than last night and Grambling, most of the assists I see from Derrick are his usual perimeter to perimeter passes that aren't defended and then the receiver drives and scores or makes a jumper. When you have the ball as much as Derrick does and you throw as many perimeter to perimeter passes as he does, eventually some of them pay off with assists.
It is a good question. And here's why. You just made the statement that defenders sagging off of Derrick would somehow inflate his numbers and be a negative for the team. Yet, Derrick's numbers point to more a distributor than a scorer. If his defender is sagging off and helping defend others, assists should be harder to come by as the other players would have a more difficult time scoring. So how would defenders sagging of Derrick help inflate his assist numbers?
jeez. you guys will do whatever argumentative voodoo you can to tear down the kid huh? highlight his shortcomings and discredit his positives. if you'd like to take a break from the team and scoop, i can PM you when we have 5 all-americans starting.
Quote from: bilsu on December 18, 2013, 04:06:58 PM
Derrick does not make turnovers, because he does not take chances which elimates assist opportunities.
Then how come he is getting more assists per minute than Junior did last year?
Quote from: Ners on December 18, 2013, 04:11:17 PM
Ahh yes, those of the creative variety that good point guards make - not just those that are the result of frequent ball swings, and the ball coming through Derrick at the point most frequently as pointed out by CT Warrior.
Why don't we conduct a fun exercise, and count all of the assists Derrick has the rest of the year that are the result of him driving the basketball, forcing help, where he dumps it off and the player scores without needing a dribble? Junior created those looks frequently for our bigs.
I see..now even his assists aren't any good.
Quote from: NavinRJohnson on December 18, 2013, 10:14:14 PM
I see..now even his assists aren't any good.
So do we not count any of JJJ's jump shots because they don't look pretty. Are we talking basketball or art appreciation?
Quote from: CTWarrior on December 18, 2013, 02:38:51 PM
I am saying you simply can't say because his numbers are the same as Cadougan's he is performing the same or as well as Cadougan. The situations are different, and to me, the biggest variable is the relative lack of defense Derrick is facing most nights. It is not every night, however. Ball State played him straight up. Maybe it is a little arbitrary, but so far on most nights it is so obvious that it can't be ignored. To some people, the biggest variable is that Vander is better than Jake. I think that is less of an issue because our opponents are keeping a guy on Jake everywhere and it's not like the other team was doubling Vander everywhere (and when they did, it was not usually with Cadougan's man)
I have felt all along that if we could find a way to force the defense to play Derrick straight up, it would open a lot of things up for everybody and we will be a much better offense. I still believe that. I will go on believing that until I see evidence to the contrary. Last night was an example of that, though Ball State wasn't forced to play Derrick straight up. They simply chose to.
The stats say Derrick and Junior are pretty even. The eye test might say something different (as you stated above), and that's fine. But, let's not just dismiss Derrick's performance when he plays well. I think that's a bit unfair.
Davante was single teamed for a lot of last night. He had a pretty efficient game. I haven't read anybody critiquing him because he wasn't guarded correctly by the opposition.
Derrick has a good game, and it's "yea, but Ball State is stupid". C'mon. Let's not do that.
Quote from: Guns n Ammo on December 18, 2013, 10:38:51 PM
.
Derrick has a good game, and it's "yea, but Ball State is stupid". C'mon. Let's not do that.
And John Dawson makes a nice pass against Grambling St and people think that earns him big minutes. People want the new toy even when there's no evidence it's as good as the old one.
Quote from: Guns n Ammo on December 18, 2013, 10:38:51 PM
But, let's not just dismiss Derrick's performance when he plays well. I think that's a bit unfair.
That is very unfair but I don't dismiss his performance against Ball State at all. It is obvious to me and you and everybody that DeWilson played well against Ball State. If teams don't use his defender to pack the middle he will take advantage of his strength to penetrate, he will be effective and we are going to be an efficient offense. Most of our quality opponents have chosen that to play him soft and pack the middle and double Gardner on or before the catch with his DeWilson's man and our offense has often bogged down as a result. That is what I think our Big East opponents are going to try to do. If we are going to have the successful top-25 type season we want to have, he and/or Buzz is going to have to find a way for him/us to be effective when that happens.
Quote from: CTWarrior on December 19, 2013, 08:26:04 AM
That is very unfair but I don't dismiss his performance against Ball State at all. It is obvious to me and you and everybody that DeWilson played well against Ball State. If teams don't use his defender to pack the middle he will take advantage of his strength to penetrate, he will be effective and we are going to be an efficient offense. Most of our quality opponents have chosen that to play him soft and pack the middle and double Gardner on or before the catch with his DeWilson's man and our offense has often bogged down as a result. That is what I think our Big East opponents are going to try to do. If we are going to have the successful top-25 type season we want to have, he and/or Buzz is going to have to find a way for him/us to be effective when that happens.
You're right... but the only thing I'll add is that there is more than 1 way to accomplish the goal (put the ball in the hoop).
Last season, teams sagged off of Junior as well (he was a poor shooter), but MU still found ways to score. Buzz has "bragged" (in the self-deprecating way that Buzz does) about that team's inability to shoot, yet they led the conference in FG%. It's not all about post-ups or kick outs for 3. MU found ways to create offense last year with a PG who couldn't shoot.
Derrick is going to have to do enough scoring to keep teams honest, and still find some ways to score when teams do sag off him and focus on Gardner (like Junior did last year). This ain't new.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 18, 2013, 11:10:46 PM
And John Dawson makes a nice pass against Grambling St and people think that earns him big minutes. People want the new toy even when there's no evidence it's as good as the old one.
It's deeper than simply liking the new toy Lenny. Generally agree with your viewpoints on things, but respectfully disagree on Derrick. He's played more minutes than anyone on the team, and his season efficiency rating is a clear cut dead last. It's a bad deal when the guy getting the most minutes on the team, and at the PG position, is far and away your most inefficient player. Dawson is a far more natural PG, who sees the floor much better - and has shown himself to be a very solid defender, and has 4 turnovers for the whole year.
Derrick was invisible against OSU and UW, the two very good teams we played. Played well against ASU, but Carson still got off for 23 even though in foul trouble, and then Thames from SDSU got off for 29 on Derrick.
Quote from: Ners on December 19, 2013, 10:53:22 AM
It's deeper than simply liking the new toy Lenny. Generally agree with your viewpoints on things, but respectfully disagree on Derrick. He's played more minutes than anyone on the team, and his season efficiency rating is a clear cut dead last. It's a bad deal when the guy getting the most minutes on the team, and at the PG position, is far and away your most inefficient player. Dawson is a far more natural PG, who sees the floor much better - and has shown himself to be a very solid defender, and has 4 turnovers for the whole year.
Derrick was invisible against OSU and UW, the two very good teams we played. Played well against ASU, but Carson still got off for 23 even though in foul trouble, and then Thames from SDSU got off for 29 on Derrick.
Dawson would have been worse against OSU and UW.
Carson did get 23 off but that was 1 point below his season average. Thames did get 29 off by going 10/11 from FT and 5/6 from three. The kid could just not be stopped. Derrick did hold him to 2/10 from 2P range
Quote from: Ners on December 19, 2013, 10:53:22 AM
It's deeper than simply liking the new toy Lenny. Generally agree with your viewpoints on things, but respectfully disagree on Derrick. He's played more minutes than anyone on the team, and his season efficiency rating is a clear cut dead last. It's a bad deal when the guy getting the most minutes on the team, and at the PG position, is far and away your most inefficient player. Dawson is a far more natural PG, who sees the floor much better - and has shown himself to be a very solid defender, and has 4 turnovers for the whole year.
Derrick was invisible against OSU and UW, the two very good teams we played. Played well against ASU, but Carson still got off for 23 even though in foul trouble, and then Thames from SDSU got off for 29 on Derrick.
I agree that Derrick has been at best average this year, Ners. But the fact that he's logged the most minutes of anyone on the team speaks volumes about how Buzz feels about his alternatives at his position. Now he's resorting to a guy who has never played the position in his life as a back up to Derrick. That means based on what he's seen in practice and in games, Buzz has zero confidence in John Dawson right now. You do. I'll go with Buzz on this one.