I know it is only a few games, but, this game was telling of a story that I just dont see changing for the better unless we make some immediate changes:
PG: Dawson (and if Duane gets healthy and beats him out, fine). Derrick is a solid back up and good spot defender with his strong hands and body...but he is not a D1 starting PG who will get the job done, period.
SG: Mayo, backed up with good minutes from JJJ. Mayo missed a lot of shots today and played out of control (probably from desperation), but he can be solid. I would spot him with JJJ and if he really is so talented, get him the minutes to develop and contribute. Jake, Im not going to bash a young man who is working his arse off, but, you need spot minutes at best.
F: Juan...just like last year...great energy and he brings it all the time...let Jamil Wilson come off the bench with significant minutes again...I may have been most disappointed in his game today.
F: Steve Taylor Jr. The dude can just board! He is usually in a great spot on the floor....why did he not play more in the second half?
C: Otule followed by Gardner.
First off the bench...Deonte Burton, JJJ, Gardner.....limit the rotation to the above and we should have a much better season as well as have the younger guys mixed in to be primed for March.
Buzz was either trying to send a message today or is using it to justify major lineup changes....or, he was just stubborn.
Glad this is November only....lots of season left to develop
I trust who Buzz starts
I trust Buzz too....he has forgotten more about college basketball than I will ever know...he sees the kids in practice and knows their talent....but, this is a forum for opinions and I shared mine....do you really trust that Jake is the best SG we have on the team and should be starting with such major minutes?
Quote from: murobrob on November 16, 2013, 02:25:22 PM
Buzz was either trying to send a message today or is using it to justify major lineup changes....or, he was just stubborn.
Glad this is November only....lots of season left to develop
After the game got away, it was clear that's what he was doing.
Quote from: The Deane Team on November 16, 2013, 02:29:32 PM
I trust who Buzz starts
I Dont..... jake thomas and derrick wilson... laughable....
I have no problem with starting Dawson, but let's not kid ourselves that he's going to turn a poor outside shooting team into a good one.
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on November 16, 2013, 02:32:43 PM
I have no problem with starting Dawson, but let's not kid ourselves that he's going to turn a poor outside shooting team into a good one.
I like his 20 Minutes against Grambling.... Over the 6 Combined years of Wilson and Thomas..... They are not Division 1 Starters..... Period
After all the hype about how good JJJ looked from Paint Touches, from Buzz, from the team--Buzz has really not given him the chance.
Only looking at trying something else for potential improvements, not certainty. We don't have Diener, Wade, and Crowder sitting on the bench in Dawson, JJJ, and Burton. But my eyes burn to see something different.
I haven't seen Dawson enough to name him a starter. I would still go with Derrick but definitely not paired with Thomas. Otherwise, I like the lineup.
Quote from: chapman on November 16, 2013, 02:36:32 PM
Only looking at trying something else for potential improvements, not certainty. We don't have Diener, Wade, and Crowder sitting on the bench in Dawson, JJJ, and Burton. But my eyes burn to see something different.
I can't disagree with that.
If I was JJJ i would be pretty furious/confused at this point. Your coach raves about you the entire offseason, as well as your teammates, you play well/show some flashes in the first two games, then sit on the bench the entire game behind two guys who are way below your skill level.
Was actually doodling about the same thing. Ox/Otule, Steve, Jr., Mayo, Juan and (with a degree of protest) Jamil. He has not demonstrated any desire/ability to lead. I'm hoping the hip pointer or whatever might have held him back. I don't think Dawson is ready to start but I would think about working him into the rotation. Mayo was pressing today but at least he was the one guy who wouldn't put his tail between his legs and kept playing. The upperclassmen don't seem to be setting the example. Let us hope and pray that the Jake era is largely closed - with all the hype about what a great 3-shooter he is, time has run out on that experiment without much in the way of results. As much as I like Derrick, and hoped that he would develop as his role changed, I don't see him as a strong option at point. Maybe Jamil would get motivated playing behind Bane.
Netty...if u saw any of the Grambling game, u would know why he's not playing. JJJ will be a good player but his off-the-ball D has a long ways to go!
Quote from: netty24 on November 16, 2013, 02:42:46 PM
If I was JJJ i would be pretty furious/confused at this point. Your coach raves about you the entire offseason, as well as your teammates, you play well/show some flashes in the first two games, then sit on the bench the entire game behind two guys who are way below your skill level.
I am pretty sure that Buzz has communicated enough with JJJ in private to know where he stands.
Quote from: netty24 on November 16, 2013, 02:42:46 PM
If I was JJJ i would be pretty furious/confused at this point. Your coach raves about you the entire offseason, as well as your teammates, you play well/show some flashes in the first two games, then sit on the bench the entire game behind two guys who are way below your skill level.
That was the most disappointing thing about today's game. Feel bad for the kid to have to watch that garbage today.
Quote from: The Deane Team on November 16, 2013, 02:29:32 PM
I trust who Buzz starts
why? didn't give us a reason to trust them today. losing would have been one thing, scoring less than 20 points in two consecutive halves is another.
If I had to words for the Marquette community today, they would be "don't panic".
And if you want to talk about minutes, realize who played the bulk of them. This game is going to be your best barometer of who we're going to see on the court for the coming year. If you don't like it, I hear there's a team in Madison you could start cheering for.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 16, 2013, 02:50:43 PM
If I had to words for the Marquette community today, they would be "don't panic".
And if you want to talk about minutes, realize who played the bulk of them. This game is going to be your best barometer of who we're going to see on the court for the coming year. If you don't like it, I hear there's a team in Madison you could start cheering for.
Let me make sure I get this straight... For you the best course of action to take if you are ever frustrated by the play of your favorite team is to begin cheering for your hated rival instead. Got it.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 16, 2013, 02:50:43 PM
If I had to words for the Marquette community today, they would be "don't panic".
And if you want to talk about minutes, realize who played the bulk of them. This game is going to be your best barometer of who we're going to see on the court for the coming year. If you don't like it, I hear there's a team in Madison you could start cheering for.
Brew, we're all fans. People can be upset about lineups, etc and that doesn't mean they don't like Buzz or are required to go cheer for another team. It was clear, early the players on the court weren't getting it done and there are some very good players on the bench that folks were hoping to see.
If im in High School and was recruited my Marquette... After seeing how many minutes their freshmen are getting... I would go as far away from Wisconsin as I could get.....
TOP 10 RECRUITING CLASS......... BOTTOM 10 IN MINUTES PLAYED..... HORRIBLE
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on November 16, 2013, 02:56:58 PM
Brew, we're all fans. People can be upset about lineups, etc and that doesn't mean they don't like Buzz or are required to go cheer for another team. It was clear, early the players on the court weren't getting it done and there are some very good players on the bench that folks were hoping to see.
I agree with that. I was hoping to see them. I don't buy into the suggestion that they would have changed the outcome of that game.
Quote from: TJ on November 16, 2013, 02:56:22 PM
Let me make sure I get this straight... For you the best course of action to take if you are ever frustrated by the play of your favorite team is to begin cheering for your hated rival instead. Got it.
No, I just get irritated by the lack of a willingness on the behalf of Marquette fans to support the guys that are out there. Maybe it's true with every fan base, but I'm not sure there are many that turn on our own guys as quickly as we do. That makes me sick. I find merit in supporting a team through both thick and thin.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 16, 2013, 02:59:33 PM
No, I just get irritated by the lack of a willingness on the behalf of Marquette fans to support the guys that are out there. Maybe it's true with every fan base, but I'm not sure there are many that turn on our own guys as quickly as we do. That makes me sick. I find merit in supporting a team through both thick and thin.
Its not about not supporting out team. Its not like I hope for Derrick and Jake to do poorly, I want them to prove me wrong. But time and time again they have shown what they are and there isnt much more to them. Derrick is a PG who cant score worth a damn and Jake is a shooter who cant hit a shot unless its against te worst them in the NCAA.
Today was a perfect example of what happens when you start and give the majority of minutes to a one-dimensional PG. There's no reason for the other team to guard him because he poses zero offensive threat. After three games, Julius Randle already has more points in his college career than Derrick Wilson.
No one was hitting shots today. I'm more disappointed by the guys that are expected to score and didn't than the ones that aren't expected to score and at least attempted shots.
Any recruits brought in for the game today?
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 16, 2013, 03:08:34 PM
Any recruits brought in for the game today?
Charles Matthews was scheduled to be here.
Quote from: thehammock on November 16, 2013, 02:45:33 PM
Netty...if u saw any of the Grambling game, u would know why he's not playing. JJJ will be a good player but his off-the-ball D has a long ways to go!
I understand that, but our defense was fine today, and especially considering the fact that we were playing a zone a significant amount of time, there is no reason he could not have come in there and played. He is longer and more athletic than Jake so he would have been better there defensively. Also, he would give us much more on offense than Jake, who either takes one ineffective dribble and then reverses the ball or clanks a three.
Quote from: The Deane Team on November 16, 2013, 02:29:32 PM
I trust who Buzz starts
No, MURob is right. We can question Buzz. We invest time in watching the team, tickets, etc. Buzz did not have his team ready to play and he did not coach a good game. It happens to the best. Al McGuire, Tex Winter, Hank Raymonds all coach poor games and their careers. I love Buzz and will support him at MU always. But this was not his best day....thank goodness....because otherwise I'd be using Bob Dukiet as a coach for past comparison and my comments would not be kind!
In my opinion....
Buzz hasn't installed his offense yet. Tough for freshmen to just go out there and ball against tOSU without the offense installed. That is why he had JWilson at the point when DeWilson needed a rest in the second half. Because he was the only other one who fully understood the offense. And possibly to get Jamil to be aggressive. Fail.
If the shots that any reasonable person considered 'good' shots had fallen for MU today, then DeWilson looks a helluva lot better and we aren't having this discussion. Again, IMO, he was holding his own in the first half. Then he got lit up on defense early in the second half and his confidence went down even more.
Time to start Mayo. Only change.
If a recruit came today..... And seen the minutes the freshmen played in a big game. They would stay Faaaaaaaar away from Marquette. Disgraceful
How do you not install an offense by now?
Quote from: Nevada233 on November 16, 2013, 05:01:38 PM
If a recruit came today..... And seen the minutes the freshmen played in a big game. They would stay Faaaaaaaar away from Marquette. Disgraceful
Umm, you sort of answered the implied question in your post. It was a
big game. And the third one in the long season. I don't find it disgraceful by any means. There's no telling whether they would have helped or hindered. While I am a proponent of giving them more burn in a big game like this, I don't think it's out of line either. Now we know that quite a few starters didn't step up for the challenge it may open the door for more frosh playing time.
Quote from: murobrob on November 16, 2013, 02:25:22 PM
I know it is only a few games, but, this game was telling of a story that I just dont see changing for the better unless we make some immediate changes:
PG: Dawson (and if Duane gets healthy and beats him out, fine). Derrick is a solid back up and good spot defender with his strong hands and body...but he is not a D1 starting PG who will get the job done, period.
SG: Mayo, backed up with good minutes from JJJ. Mayo missed a lot of shots today and played out of control (probably from desperation), but he can be solid. I would spot him with JJJ and if he really is so talented, get him the minutes to develop and contribute. Jake, Im not going to bash a young man who is working his arse off, but, you need spot minutes at best.
F: Juan...just like last year...great energy and he brings it all the time...let Jamil Wilson come off the bench with significant minutes again...I may have been most disappointed in his game today.
F: Steve Taylor Jr. The dude can just board! He is usually in a great spot on the floor....why did he not play more in the second half?
C: Otule followed by Gardner.
First off the bench...Deonte Burton, JJJ, Gardner.....limit the rotation to the above and we should have a much better season as well as have the younger guys mixed in to be primed for March.
Buzz was either trying to send a message today or is using it to justify major lineup changes....or, he was just stubborn.
Glad this is November only....lots of season left to develop
No wat Juan starts at Forward. Gardner needs to be in there a lot. The front line should be Otule, Ox and Taylor. Then use Juan and Wilson as backups along with Burton.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 16, 2013, 03:08:34 PM
Any recruits brought in for the game today?
I sure as hell hope not. They would be totally embarrassed.
Quote from: tower912 on November 16, 2013, 05:00:30 PM
In my opinion....
Buzz hasn't installed his offense yet. Tough for freshmen to just go out there and ball against tOSU without the offense installed. That is why he had JWilson at the point when DeWilson needed a rest in the second half. Because he was the only other one who fully understood the offense. And possibly to get Jamil to be aggressive. Fail.
If the shots that any reasonable person considered 'good' shots had fallen for MU today, then DeWilson looks a helluva lot better and we aren't having this discussion. Again, IMO, he was holding his own in the first half. Then he got lit up on defense early in the second half and his confidence went down even more.
Time to start Mayo. Only change.
mayo starting after that abysmal performance?
Quote from: netty24 on November 16, 2013, 02:42:46 PM
If I was JJJ i would be pretty furious/confused at this point. Your coach raves about you the entire offseason, as well as your teammates, you play well/show some flashes in the first two games, then sit on the bench the entire game behind two guys who are way below your skill level.
Perhaps he had a crap## week of practice and Buzz was paying him back. Who knows but it was something.
Quote from: Nevada233 on November 16, 2013, 05:01:38 PM
If a recruit came today..... And seen the minutes the freshmen played in a big game. They would stay Faaaaaaaar away from Marquette. Disgraceful
Quote from: willie warrior on November 16, 2013, 05:13:13 PM
I sure as hell hope not. They would be totally embarrassed.
Yeah, holy s***! we were totally unable to recruit ANY good
players after embarrassing non-conference losses to Vanderbilt,
@Florida, Butler, and @UWGB the past few seasons.
Calm down.
Quote from: lab_warrior on November 16, 2013, 05:18:14 PM
Yeah, holy s***! we were totally unable to recruit ANY good
players after embarrassing non-conference losses to Vanderbilt,
@Florida, Butler, and @UWGB the past few seasons.
Calm down.
I've been waiting all afternoon for you to show up.
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on November 16, 2013, 05:02:10 PM
How do you not install an offense by now?
Buzz always installs it late, always spends the first few weeks teaching defense. The defensive rotations early were very good. And, as bad as it was, tOSU was held in the 50's.
Quote from: tower912 on November 16, 2013, 05:23:44 PM
Buzz always installs it late, always spends the first few weeks teaching defense. The defensive rotations early were very good. And, as bad as it was, tOSU was held in the 50's.
Yeah I know. I remember Norfolk State in the Paradise Jam a couple years ago.
I do, too. Look, MU always seems to have an early season clunker. Dayton. Norfolk. UWGB AND Florida. The teams get better. To have some now suggest that all Buzz is doing is admiring his contract is.....well, in character, but still totally deranged.
Quote from: Jamil_toMU10 on November 16, 2013, 05:08:54 PM
Umm, you sort of answered the implied question in your post. It was a big game. And the third one in the long season. I don't find it disgraceful by any means. There's no telling whether they would have helped or hindered. While I am a proponent of giving them more burn in a big game like this, I don't think it's out of line either. Now we know that quite a few starters didn't step up for the challenge it may open the door for more frosh playing time.
Indeed.... what about steve taylor Jr... he only got 16 min... and grabbed 9 boards in that time... why not let him play..
Quote from: willie warrior on November 16, 2013, 05:14:45 PM
mayo starting after that abysmal performance?
He was the only one attacking. Snakebit. Out of control. But at least he wasn't being passive.
Quote from: Nevada233 on November 16, 2013, 05:42:54 PM
Indeed.... what about steve taylor Jr... he only got 16 min... and grabbed 9 boards in that time... why not let him play..
Agreed. I outlined in a topic earlier that Steve should get more looks on offense too. He's got a good jumper. Wouldn't mind seeing a few free throw line jumpers from Steve this game.
STjr hasn't hit a jumper yet this year. Still revovering from his knee surgery? It is clear that he should be starting and he is. What is less clear is whether or not he can play 30 or hit a jumper yet.
Quote from: tower912 on November 16, 2013, 05:45:31 PM
He was the only one attacking. Snakebit. Out of control. But at least he wasn't being passive.
Yeah you are right-he was aggressive on his 3 for 16 shooting and 5 TO's.
Quote from: tower912 on November 16, 2013, 05:45:31 PM
He was the only one attacking. Snakebit. Out of control. But at least he wasn't being passive.
Oh god... Todd Mayo 3 for 15.... sheesh... a bad combo of Kobe Bryants ego mixed with Jr Smiths shot selection....
Quote from: tower912 on November 16, 2013, 05:23:44 PM
Buzz always installs it late, always spends the first few weeks teaching defense. The defensive rotations early were very good. And, as bad as it was, tOSU was held in the 50's.
Yeah--everybody knows you do not install an offense by the first month of practice. You wait until Feb.
Quote from: willie warrior on November 16, 2013, 05:55:29 PM
Yeah you are right-he was aggressive on his 3 for 16 shooting and 5 TO's.
When nobody else steps up, the shots go to the one working the hardest. DG didn't play every possession like he wanted the ball. Otule didn't post every possession like he wanted the ball. Jamil was passive. So, if everyone is passive, and, if it is as I suspect and the freshmen don't know the offense yet, and nobody else is willing to attack...then, hell yes, let Todd make aggressive mistakes. Nobody complained when he did the exact same thing against Southern but the shots fell. Today, when everybody else was tentative, he at least tried to be 'the man'. It didn't work. What's worse, to try and fail or to not try?
Quote from: Nevada233 on November 16, 2013, 02:58:02 PM
If im in High School and was recruited my Marquette... After seeing how many minutes their freshmen are getting... I would go as far away from Wisconsin as I could get.....
TOP 10 RECRUITING CLASS......... BOTTOM 10 IN MINUTES PLAYED..... HORRIBLE
+1000
Quote from: willie warrior on November 16, 2013, 05:59:52 PM
Yeah--everybody knows you do not install an offense by the first month of practice. You wait until Feb.
It sure has worked well the last 3 years, wouldn't you agree? Look, Buzz does what Buzz does. His results speak for themselves. There is always a clunker early. Florida. Dayton. Norfolk. UWGB. Pretty sure we looked bad last year twice early and somehow recovered for 14-4 conference record, share of the Big East regular season title, and a trip to the elite 8. I saw nothing today that told me that a repeat of that is impossible.
The shot DG took out from the free throw line is about as deep as any of these guys should have shot today!
Quote from: willie warrior on November 16, 2013, 05:59:52 PM
Yeah--everybody knows you do not install an offense by the first month of practice. You wait until Feb.
Jesus, I can't believe I'm here responding to incessant pessimist
trolls after game 4 of the season...
IT'S A MOTION OFFENSE. There's nothing to "install."
It works well when players (and combinations of certain players)
get comfortable finding pick-and-roll and areas of the floor where
they can score the ball.
It takes some time to develop. Calm down.
Quote from: lab_warrior on November 16, 2013, 06:11:47 PM
Jesus, I can't believe I'm here responding to incessant pessimist
trolls after game 4 of the season...
IT'S A MOTION OFFENSE. There's nothing to "install."
Not true. There's several sets that start the motion offense that are different from one another. This includes a group of traditional sets and a group of contemporary sets. For example, you can start a traditional set by having two big men start on each side of the free throw line and drop to the blocks and set picks to free the wings down below to start the offense. Then yes, you pass and cut. Or you could run a rotation set were the big men flash to the post or set picks for each other as the guards rotate the ball. You could run a rotation set were the guards are rotating and passing and one big man or shooter runs the base line. You can invert the guards to start the offense, like in the swing. You can run a triangle where you always put pressure on the strong side, but ultimately have a weak side shooter, which was a staple of Tex Winter's offense. You can have the wings set picks to free players starting on the down on the blocks. There are 4 guard sets, and 3 guard sets. Sometimes, the method in which you start the motion is critical in finding a weakness to exploit. In addition, there are actual plays that are run out of these sets when needed. Continuity among players and understanding the strategy on offense in critical. Everyone needs to be on the same page. Practice is critical.
Keep in mind the above sets only apply to a man to man defense. If a team plays a zone like Syracuse, there are actual offensive packages designed for that defense as well. Those types of packages fall into two categories...Inside-out packages and outside-in packages.
What I've touched on is only a few things off the top of my helmet. There's many more.
And all of them are rendered moot when nobody moves.
Quote from: tower912 on November 16, 2013, 07:09:12 PM
And all of them are rendered moot when nobody moves.
Bingo!!!!!!
Quote from: 4everwarriors on November 16, 2013, 03:08:34 PM
Any recruits brought in for the game today?
Diamond Stone was there as always.
MU held Ohio State to 52 points. That's excellent defense. Only one other team has done that in the last year, and they're known as a pretty strong defensive team as well. (Wisconsin - twice last year).
Yes, the offense was crap. No time to panic. Not yet, and not for a while.
Prediction: Buzz does not have the gonads to shake up the starting line-up
Quote from: willie warrior on November 17, 2013, 07:05:13 AM
Prediction: Buzz does not have the gonads to shake up the starting line-up
Where were you last year when Buzz shook up the starting line up and went on to win a conference title and got to the E8.
Oh yeah....you were gone from here.
Funny how you only seem to show up when there is something to bitch about. Or maybe you're just bad luck. Perhaps you should go on vacation again.
Quote from: willie warrior on November 17, 2013, 07:05:13 AM
Prediction: Buzz does not have the gonads to shake up the starting line-up
You don't have the gonads to tell Buzz this to his face.
Quote from: tower912 on November 16, 2013, 06:02:34 PM
When nobody else steps up, the shots go to the one working the hardest. DG didn't play every possession like he wanted the ball. Otule didn't post every possession like he wanted the ball. Jamil was passive. So, if everyone is passive, and, if it is as I suspect and the freshmen don't know the offense yet, and nobody else is willing to attack...then, hell yes, let Todd make aggressive mistakes. Nobody complained when he did the exact same thing against Southern but the shots fell. Today, when everybody else was tentative, he at least tried to be 'the man'. It didn't work. What's worse, to try and fail or to not try?
Try something else. Mayo, first, last and always is a shoot first Gunner. If he is off, then he stinks it up, plays out of control, as he did yesterday. 5 TO's. When the rest of the team is also blowing it, except Gardner--get the ball to Gardner, High or Low. He was the only offense we had yesterday-same as Syracuse. What did he have yesterday, 5 shots? C'mon man!
Quote from: willie warrior on November 17, 2013, 08:28:34 AM
many do not.
No, you don't.
It's ONE effing game. It's essentially the same team as last year. Too bad they didn't do anything good last year either.
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on November 17, 2013, 08:24:12 AM
Where were you last year when Buzz shook up the starting line up and went on to win a conference title and got to the E8.
Oh yeah....you were gone from here.
Funny how you only seem to show up when there is something to bitch about. Or maybe you're just bad luck. Perhaps you should go on vacation again.
Here we go again with the great Sultan expounding? Bowing down and slurping at the altar of Buzz. I show up plenty Sultan. You continue to give all the passes you want, and when I see flaws I will call them out. Somebody should. And I submit to you that Buzz needs to shake up the starting lineup again, or there will be no Conference Title, and judging by yesterday, no NCAA tourney. And no, I do not mean starting Anderson for 3 minutes each half. Significant changes are in order.
Let's see....I have five years of Buzz history of overcoming similar losses while at MU.
Or I have willie behind a keyboard.
Hmmm.......
Quote from: real chili 83 on November 17, 2013, 08:38:39 AM
It's essentially the same team as last year. Too bad they didn't do anything good last year either.
Not to panic but, it's
not essentially the same team as last year. In college hoops, it's all about how the guards set the offensive tone, and last year we had a respected pair of starting guards.
Now, I certainly will acknowledge that we might not have realized after three games that the Junior-Vander combo was going to be really good. But let's be honest: Derrick and Jake never have been, are not now and are not going to become anything close to Junior and Vander.
Quote from: MU82 on November 17, 2013, 08:44:37 AM
Not to panic but, it's not essentially the same team as last year. In college hoops, it's all about how the guards set the offensive tone, and last year we had a respected pair of starting guards.
Now, I certainly will acknowledge that we might not have realized after three games that the Junior-Vander combo was going to be really good. But let's be honest: Derrick and Jake never have been, are not now and are not going to become anything close to Junior and Vander.
Oh so now the story is that Junior was some fantastic point guard? A little late for that, because as I seem to remember it, he was crucified game after game after game after game after game over the last 3 years. And this by a fanbase that seemed to completely discount the fact that he, as our primary PG, led us to two sweet 16's and an Elite 8.
Let's face it. Most of the goofballs posting on here aren't going to be satisfied unless our PG comes down the court and chucks up 3's or drives to the rim on about 50% of our possessions, because, dang it, the PG needs to score for this team to win. This despite the fact that clearly, Buzz has other things in mind from the PG position. I'll trust him to run the team as he sees fit because the results so far have been pretty damn good, even with "offensively bankrupt" point guards.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on November 17, 2013, 10:48:39 AM
Oh so now the story is that Junior was some fantastic point guard? A little late for that, because as I seem to remember it, he was crucified game after game after game after game after game over the last 3 years. And this by a fanbase that seemed to completely discount the fact that he, as our primary PG, led us to two sweet 16's and an Elite 8.
Let's face it. Most of the goofballs posting on here aren't going to be satisfied unless our PG comes down the court and chucks up 3's or drives to the rim on about 50% of our possessions, because, dang it, the PG needs to score for this team to win. This despite the fact that clearly, Buzz has other things in mind from the PG position. I'll trust him to run the team as he sees fit because the results so far have been pretty damn good, even with "offensively bankrupt" point guards.
Awesome post.
Quote from: real chili 83 on November 17, 2013, 08:38:39 AM
No, you don't.
It's ONE effing game. It's essentially the same team as last year. Too bad they didn't do anything good last year either.
this is this year.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on November 17, 2013, 10:48:39 AM
Oh so now the story is that Junior was some fantastic point guard? A little late for that, because as I seem to remember it, he was crucified game after game after game after game after game over the last 3 years. And this by a fanbase that seemed to completely discount the fact that he, as our primary PG, led us to two sweet 16's and an Elite 8.
Let's face it. Most of the goofballs posting on here aren't going to be satisfied unless our PG comes down the court and chucks up 3's or drives to the rim on about 50% of our possessions, because, dang it, the PG needs to score for this team to win. This despite the fact that clearly, Buzz has other things in mind from the PG position. I'll trust him to run the team as he sees fit because the results so far have been pretty damn good, even with "offensively bankrupt" point guards.
+1
I don't think anyone is completely satisfied with where things are. The simple truth is this is a flawed team, just like every other team Buzz has had. His first team didn't have any inside offensive presence and little depth. The next year we were undersized from 1-5. The first Sweet 16 year we had erratic PG play and trouble closing out close games. The second Sweet 16 year our offense played fast but was inefficient and we had little defense inside. Last year, we had no go-to scorer and a PG that ran hot and cold.
I'd love to have Shabazz Napier at the point. The simple truth is we don't. Buzz has overcome all of these issues over the years. As much-maligned as Derrick has been, no one has shown to be better. It wouldn't surprise me to see this team turn into more of a grind-it-out team than we are used to. The defense has been excellent so far. Championship level excellent. If the offense can get to the point of being respectable, this team has the potential to go far.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 17, 2013, 11:03:21 AM
+1
I don't think anyone is completely satisfied with where things are. The simple truth is this is a flawed team, just like every other team Buzz has had. His first team didn't have any inside offensive presence and little depth. The next year we were undersized from 1-5. The first Sweet 16 year we had erratic PG play and trouble closing out close games. The second Sweet 16 year our offense played fast but was inefficient and we had little defense inside. Last year, we had no go-to scorer and a PG that ran hot and cold.
I'd love to have Shabazz Napier at the point. The simple truth is we don't. Buzz has overcome all of these issues over the years. As much-maligned as Derrick has been, no one has shown to be better. It wouldn't surprise me to see this team turn into more of a grind-it-out team than we are used to. The defense has been excellent so far. Championship level excellent. If the offense can get to the point of being respectable, this team has the potential to go far.
Thank you!
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 17, 2013, 11:03:21 AM
+1
I don't think anyone is completely satisfied with where things are. The simple truth is this is a flawed team, just like every other team Buzz has had. His first team didn't have any inside offensive presence and little depth. The next year we were undersized from 1-5. The first Sweet 16 year we had erratic PG play and trouble closing out close games. The second Sweet 16 year our offense played fast but was inefficient and we had little defense inside. Last year, we had no go-to scorer and a PG that ran hot and cold.
I'd love to have Shabazz Napier at the point. The simple truth is we don't. Buzz has overcome all of these issues over the years. As much-maligned as Derrick has been, no one has shown to be better. It wouldn't surprise me to see this team turn into more of a grind-it-out team than we are used to. The defense has been excellent so far. Championship level excellent. If the offense can get to the point of being respectable, this team has the potential to go far.
Agreed. What we need most is (in order):
1) Jamil to want to put the team on his back and be the man. This is worrisome because he has yet to show any inclination to want to do that.
2) DG to play with the same fire on both ends of the court. Our team defense takes a huge downgrade with him on the floor...we can't have him playing big minutes for his offense when his D is so bad. OSU big run yesterday came with him on the floor and doing nothing to contest layups. Understand if he was contesting shots but unwilling to do so too aggresively due to fouls, but he was not in position to even contest.
3) The entire team, but mostly Steve and Juan, to be more aggressive on offense. Those two in particular have skills, but both look too hesitant. Our offense looks bad because it looks like nobody wants to be the guy to shoot. Everyone needs to get over that and quick.
4) Todd to rein it in just a little. Hard to criticize him for yesterday as nobody else was doing anything offensively and he at least was trying, but some of that aggression could be used to break down the defense then provide opportunities for others, rather than attempting some impossible shot.
5) Time to gel as a team, particularly on offense. They will figure out how to make it work.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on November 17, 2013, 11:20:45 AM
Agreed. What we need most is (in order):
1) Jamil to want to put the team on his back and be the man. This is worrisome because he has yet to show any inclination to want to do that.
2) DG to play with the same fire on both ends of the court. Our team defense takes a huge downgrade with him on the floor...we can't have him playing big minutes for his offense when his D is so bad. OSU big run yesterday came with him on the floor and doing nothing to contest layups. Understand if he was contesting shots but unwilling to do so too aggresively due to fouls, but he was not in position to even contest.
3) The entire team, but mostly Steve and Juan, to be more aggressive on offense. Those two in particular have skills, but both look too hesitant. Our offense looks bad because it looks like nobody wants to be the guy to shoot. Everyone needs to get over that and quick.
4) Todd to rein it in just a little. Hard to criticize him for yesterday as nobody else was doing anything offensively and he at least was trying, but some of that aggression could be used to break down the defense then provide opportunities for others, rather than attempting some impossible shot.
5) Time to gel as a team, particularly on offense. They will figure out how to make it work.
I'd pretty much agree with this completely. As much flack as Derrick is getting, it really seems to me like he's the one most doing what he's supposed to be doing. While I don't want to see him jacking shots like he did yesterday, what choice did he have? He had zero help. DeWil has been good on defense, been more of a playmaker than any of us expected, and not overextended himself on offense. If Jamil is more aggressive and some of the three-point shooters were hitting shots yesterday, I have no doubt DeWil would have had an easier time finding Gardner inside. It was a bad game, there was a lid on the basket, but the notion that replacing DeWil with a freshman will suddenly cure all that ails us is simply silly.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 17, 2013, 11:34:51 AM
I'd pretty much agree with this completely. As much flack as Derrick is getting, it really seems to me like he's the one most doing what he's supposed to be doing. While I don't want to see him jacking shots like he did yesterday, what choice did he have? He had zero help. DeWil has been good on defense, been more of a playmaker than any of us expected, and not overextended himself on offense. If Jamil is more aggressive and some of the three-point shooters were hitting shots yesterday, I have no doubt DeWil would have had an easier time finding Gardner inside. It was a bad game, there was a lid on the basket, but the notion that replacing DeWil with a freshman will suddenly cure all that ails us is simply silly.
To try to defend Derrick Wilson's performance yesterday is ridiculous. What choice did he not have but to jack shots when the OSU defense sagged so far off of him, clogging up the middle for Gardner, Jamil, and cutters? His inbound passes? Taking a 5 second call on an inbound? Jamil should have been inbounding the ball...Derrick way too short to effectively inbound against the long, rangy player they had defend the out of bounds plays.
And Derrick was a "playmaker" yesterday? Sorry. And no, if Derrick can't get it together, and Buzz continues to start him and play him extensive minutes....this won't be another year where we lay an egg in the early season, but go on to have a really good conference and NCAA tourney. You simply cannot have a PG as ineffective as Derrick. Maybe Dawson isn't the answer - but he certainly wouldn't have been worse than Derrick yesterday. Maybe Jamil needs to be a Point Forward. Perhaps move Todd there. But Derrick is not the solution.
Heavy Gear, I apologize but I don't understand a word you say on this board. I simply can't read your posts with that video below them.
I wonder how many assists Derrick would have had yesterday had Todd, Jamil, and Jake hit their wide-open threes.
Quote from: Ners on November 17, 2013, 12:50:35 PM
To try to defend Derrick Wilson's performance yesterday is ridiculous. What choice did he not have but to jack shots when the OSU defense sagged so far off of him, clogging up the middle for Gardner, Jamil, and cutters? His inbound passes? Taking a 5 second call on an inbound? Jamil should have been inbounding the ball...Derrick way too short to effectively inbound against the long, rangy player they had defend the out of bounds plays.
And Derrick was a "playmaker" yesterday? Sorry. And no, if Derrick can't get it together, and Buzz continues to start him and play him extensive minutes....this won't be another year where we lay an egg in the early season, but go on to have a really good conference and NCAA tourney. You simply cannot have a PG as ineffective as Derrick. Maybe Dawson isn't the answer - but he certainly wouldn't have been worse than Derrick yesterday. Maybe Jamil needs to be a Point Forward. Perhaps move Todd there. But Derrick is not the solution.
+1. He hasn't ever been a playmaker. If it's everyone else's fault for not making him look good he's always going to have that excuse. If he was supposed to do nothing, I suppose he did it well. But that's the role of a backup, not 38 minutes.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 17, 2013, 01:44:02 PM
I wonder how many assists Derrick would have had yesterday had Todd, Jamil, and Jake hit their wide-open threes.
And how many turnovers if they didn't run over to rescue him the many times he got in trouble by picking up his dribble because someone was within five feet of him?
Quote from: chapman on November 17, 2013, 01:49:28 PM
+1. He hasn't ever been a playmaker. If it's everyone else's fault for not making him look good he's always going to have that excuse. If he was supposed to do nothing, I suppose he did it well. But that's the role of a backup, not 38 minutes.
He put Mayo, Jamil, and Jake in position to take 31 shots. Is it somehow Derrick's fault that they missed 27 of them? I get that it's popular to scapegoat Derrick, but how is it that Dawson is the savior based on his performance against Grambling while Derrick is criticized for his despite clearly outplaying Dawson in the same game? How many assists has Derrick not been credited for this season because guys ended up at the line or missed their shots? I think most people expected him to be a caretaker. He's created chances. Not his fault the guys on the other end haven't finished them.
Quote from: chapman on November 17, 2013, 01:49:28 PMAnd how many turnovers if they didn't run over to rescue him the many times he got in trouble by picking up his dribble because someone was within five feet of him?
Motion is part of the offense, coming to rescue a guy who picks up his dribble should be everyone's responsibility. The reality is Derrick turned it over twice yesterday. Against one of the best defenses in the country I'll take that.
Those three guys were 7/17 against Southern, 41% from the floor. If they go 41% from the floor against Ohio State, we win that game. Instead they shot 12% and we lost. So let's pile on the guy whose job is to give them chances (and did) rather than the guys that are expected to convert chances (and didn't).
Wilson* is a problem.
*I'm not talking about Derrick.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 17, 2013, 02:04:44 PM
He put Mayo, Jamil, and Jake in position to take 31 shots. Is it somehow Derrick's fault that they missed 27 of them? I get that it's popular to scapegoat Derrick, but how is it that Dawson is the savior based on his performance against Grambling while Derrick is criticized for his despite clearly outplaying Dawson in the same game? How many assists has Derrick not been credited for this season because guys ended up at the line or missed their shots? I think most people expected him to be a caretaker. He's created chances. Not his fault the guys on the other end haven't finished them.
Motion is part of the offense, coming to rescue a guy who picks up his dribble should be everyone's responsibility. The reality is Derrick turned it over twice yesterday. Against one of the best defenses in the country I'll take that.
Those three guys were 7/17 against Southern, 41% from the floor. If they go 41% from the floor against Ohio State, we win that game. Instead they shot 12% and we lost. So let's pile on the guy whose job is to give them chances (and did) rather than the guys that are expected to convert chances (and didn't).
What is the more absurd? People obsessing about the team's play yesterday or you obsessing about people obsessing about the team's play yesterday. Things must be mighty slow at the fire house.
Quote from: Guns n Ammo on November 17, 2013, 03:00:36 PM
Wilson* is a problem.
*I'm not talking about Derrick.
This one?
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/fb/Wilson_The_Volleyball.jpg)
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on November 16, 2013, 02:32:43 PM
I have no problem with starting Dawson, but let's not kid ourselves that he's going to turn a poor outside shooting team into a good one.
Why can you guys not understand that Dawson is not the answer. Buzz did not even give him a second of play, which should tell you something. I do think Juan should start over Jamil.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on November 17, 2013, 11:20:45 AM
Agreed. What we need most is (in order):
1) Jamil to want to put the team on his back and be the man. This is worrisome because he has yet to show any inclination to want to do that.
2) DG to play with the same fire on both ends of the court. Our team defense takes a huge downgrade with him on the floor...we can't have him playing big minutes for his offense when his D is so bad. OSU big run yesterday came with him on the floor and doing nothing to contest layups. Understand if he was contesting shots but unwilling to do so too aggresively due to fouls, but he was not in position to even contest.
3) The entire team, but mostly Steve and Juan, to be more aggressive on offense. Those two in particular have skills, but both look too hesitant. Our offense looks bad because it looks like nobody wants to be the guy to shoot. Everyone needs to get over that and quick.
4) Todd to rein it in just a little. Hard to criticize him for yesterday as nobody else was doing anything offensively and he at least was trying, but some of that aggression could be used to break down the defense then provide opportunities for others, rather than attempting some impossible shot.
5) Time to gel as a team, particularly on offense. They will figure out how to make it work.
Good stuff. To my eyes, the far more worrisome thing than DeWilson was the lack of leadership, passion, energy, will from the seniors. Where was the help defense during the second half OSU run? After Gardner got his second foul, why did he never again take the ball aggressively to the basket? Why can't he read a double team? After posting up strong to start the second half, why did Otule never post aggressively again? And Jamil.....that much talent mixed with too much deference.
Quote from: keefe on November 17, 2013, 03:07:53 PM
What is the more absurd? People obsessing about the team's play yesterday or you obsessing about people obsessing about the team's play yesterday. Things must be mighty slow at the fire house.
I'd go with you obsessing about my obsessing with other people's obsessing about the team's play yesterday. But I suppose it's natural for you to come in and pointlessly snipe, it seems to be what you do best.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 17, 2013, 03:49:59 PM
I'd go with you obsessing about my obsessing with other people's obsessing about the team's play yesterday. But I suppose it's natural for you to come in and pointlessly snipe, it seems to be what you do best.
People are expressing themselves. You are one of a handful who feel they own the content here. Your opinion is no more valid than others. Lecturing others here seems to be the high point of your day. Pathetic, actually. Go take Sparky for a walk.
Seriously, Keefe? You lecturing someone else about lecturing? Look up 'irony'.
Quote from: bilsu on November 17, 2013, 03:43:38 PM
Why can you guys not understand that Dawson is not the answer. Buzz did not even give him a second of play, which should tell you something. I do think Juan should start over Jamil.
I don't think Dawson is the answer either. I just think that if you are going to give anyone more exposure to the PG minutes, it should be him. Might as well.
Quote from: tower912 on November 17, 2013, 04:19:40 PM
Seriously, Keefe? You lecturing someone else about lecturing? Look up 'irony'.
When keefe does it, he is merely imparting his wisdom.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 17, 2013, 02:04:44 PM
He put Mayo, Jamil, and Jake in position to take 31 shots. Is it somehow Derrick's fault that they missed 27 of them? I get that it's popular to scapegoat Derrick, but how is it that Dawson is the savior based on his performance against Grambling while Derrick is criticized for his despite clearly outplaying Dawson in the same game? How many assists has Derrick not been credited for this season because guys ended up at the line or missed their shots? I think most people expected him to be a caretaker. He's created chances. Not his fault the guys on the other end haven't finished them.
Motion is part of the offense, coming to rescue a guy who picks up his dribble should be everyone's responsibility. The reality is Derrick turned it over twice yesterday. Against one of the best defenses in the country I'll take that.
Those three guys were 7/17 against Southern, 41% from the floor. If they go 41% from the floor against Ohio State, we win that game. Instead they shot 12% and we lost. So let's pile on the guy whose job is to give them chances (and did) rather than the guys that are expected to convert chances (and didn't).
Give me a break....Mayo practically created all 15 of his shots on his own. Jamil went at the basket off the bounce more than usual...
Please remind me of 1 fast break Derrick Wilson led that resulted in an easy basket for his teammates. Let's face it, there were plenty of defensive rebounds in the first half to try* to get out in transition.
Please cite 1 example of Derrick collapsing the defense in the paint and dishing to one of our bigs for an easy lay in?
The sad thing for you Brew is that once you get into a debate about a player, you see things through a ridiculously biased lens, to try to fit into your hypothesis, and the reality is that the evidence doesn't support your hypothesis.
We can debate if Dawson would have done better, he very likely may not have - but its hard to debate if he'd have done worse. OSU didn't pick up full court against MU, we faced no press, and I think its safe to say Dawson could have handled himself effectively.
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on November 17, 2013, 04:21:49 PM
I don't think Dawson is the answer either. I just think that if you are going to give anyone more exposure to the PG minutes, it should be him. Might as well.
I agree with this. Without DuWil, the next minutes default to Dawson. But if a team is going to sag off Derrick, and why wouldn't they, he isn't going to be able to pass into the post and he certainly not going to make any shots.
Quote from: Ners on November 17, 2013, 04:32:59 PM
Give me a break....Mayo practically created all 15 of his shots on his own. Jamil went at the basket off the bounce more than usual...
Please remind me of 1 fast break Derrick Wilson led that resulted in an easy basket for his teammates. Let's face it, there were plenty of defensive rebounds in the first half to try* to get out in transition.
Please cite 1 example of Derrick collapsing the defense in the paint and dishing to one of our bigs for an easy lay in?
The sad thing for you Brew is that once you get into a debate about a player, you see things through a ridiculously biased lens, to try to fit into your hypothesis, and the reality is that the evidence doesn't support your hypothesis.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! It's been awhile since I've seen irony this beautiful!
And Todd and Jamil missed plenty of jumpers. Plenty. Todd was 1-6 from three. Jamil 0-3. Jake 0-6.
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on November 17, 2013, 04:37:13 PM
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! It's been awhile since I've seen irony this beautiful!
And Todd and Jamil missed plenty of jumpers. Plenty. Todd was 1-6 from three. Jamil 0-3. Jake 0-6.
Please cite an example....or are you going to pull out the Vander/DJ Newbill argument....which I think is safe to say was a wash at minimum. Newbill's a good player..you gonna deny that? Gardner? Went at it with Brew over him and Blue the first 2 years - gonna deny Gardner didn't perform well? Hell, I even said Jake Thomas would be more than a typical walk on way back when he transferred to which you called me ridiculous....what's your take now? He's getting big minutes against high level competition - which unfortunately hasn't worked out well at all...
Quote from: Ners on November 17, 2013, 05:52:33 PM
Please cite an example....or are you going to pull out the Vander/DJ Newbill argument....which I think is safe to say was a wash at minimum.
I think you just did it for me. Thanks.
Quote from: Ners on November 17, 2013, 05:52:33 PM
Please cite an example....or are you going to pull out the Vander/DJ Newbill argument....which I think is safe to say was a wash at minimum. Newbill's a good player..you gonna deny that? Gardner? Went at it with Brew over him and Blue the first 2 years - gonna deny Gardner didn't perform well? Hell, I even said Jake Thomas would be more than a typical walk on way back when he transferred to which you called me ridiculous....what's your take now? He's getting big minutes against high level competition - which unfortunately hasn't worked out well at all...
What about your Todd Mayo prediction?
Quote from: Guns n Ammo on November 17, 2013, 06:33:37 PM
What about your Todd Mayo prediction?
Oh...the bet we made about him being our 2nd leading scorer last year measured by points per 40 minutes?? Yeah....you sure "won" that bet by a landslide.....what he missed being 2nd leading scorer in points per 40 by what? .007 ppg? Wow...what a ridiculous prediction I made...
I still stand by my statement that Mayo has a lot of game and will be a good player at MU. He at least was assertive, created his own shots, and "finished" much like Vander Blue did in his career at MU...in fact almost identical to Vander's last game at MU against Syracuse in the Elite 8...here's Vander's numbers from that game..
40 3-15 2-9 6-7 2 5 2 0 0 4 1 14
Quote from: Ners on November 17, 2013, 06:52:13 PM
Oh...the bet we made about him being our 2nd leading scorer last year measured by points per 40 minutes?? Yeah....you sure "won" that bet by a landslide.....what he missed being 2nd leading scorer in points per 40 by what? .007 ppg? Wow...what a ridiculous prediction I made...
LOL....yeah....mostly because the denominator got f*cked with due to his suspension.
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on November 17, 2013, 06:56:02 PM
LOL....yeah....mostly because the denominator got f*cked with due to his suspension.
Uhh...nice try jag....but the bet was for conference play...
How many times in the first three games has Derrick beaten his man off the dribble, penetrated to the basket, and created for himself and others? I can remember a couple.
That is my definition of a PG making plays.
Picking up your dribble 25 feet from the basket, throwing an easy pass to somebody standing 10 feet away from you and having that somebody hit a 3 is not being a playmaker.
I am not picking on Derrick. He is who he is. We need a better PG to be a legit team. That's Buzz's fault, not Derrick's. (And as anybody who would look at my history knows, I'm a HUGE Buzz fan. That doesn't mean he walks on water and is above a little criticism, though. He makes mistakes, too, and not having a PG for this team with its good frontcourt ranks as one of his biggest.)
It was far and away my No. 1 concern heading into this season, and not one thing has happened so far to make me believe I was incorrect. And I know I wasn't the only one who had that concern. Buzz probably had it, too, but would never admit it.
Oh, and no matter what any Derrick apologist might want to say about his alleged playmaking, it's pretty difficult to defend:
.275 ... .083 ... .422.
Those are his career shooting percentages from the floor, from 3-point range and -- yikes! -- from the FT line.
Sad to say (and almost impossible to believe), he actually has regressed in each category.
This isn't panic. This isn't overreaction to an early-season aberration. This is looking at the facts.
42% FT shooting for the starting PG for a team with Sweet 16 (and beyond) aspirations! Wow! (And 25% this season, BTW.)
As soon as Derrick hits, say, 4 FTs in a row, folks can start talking about him being a real PG for a real contender.
Quote from: MU82 on November 17, 2013, 07:43:31 PM
How many times in the first three games has Derrick beaten his man off the dribble, penetrated to the basket, and created for himself and others? I can remember a couple.
That is my definition of a PG making plays.
Picking up your dribble 25 feet from the basket, throwing an easy pass to somebody standing 10 feet away from you and having that somebody hit a 3 is not being a playmaker.
I am not picking on Derrick. He is who he is. We need a better PG to be a legit team. That's Buzz's fault, not Derrick's. (And as anybody who would look at my history knows, I'm a HUGE Buzz fan. That doesn't mean he walks on water and is above a little criticism, though. He makes mistakes, too, and not having a PG for this team with its good frontcourt ranks as one of his biggest.)
It was far and away my No. 1 concern heading into this season, and not one thing has happened so far to make me believe I was incorrect. And I know I wasn't the only one who had that concern. Buzz probably had it, too, but would never admit it.
Oh, and no matter what any Derrick apologist might want to say about his alleged playmaking, it's pretty difficult to defend:
.275 ... .083 ... .422.
Those are his career shooting percentages from the floor, from 3-point range and -- yikes! -- from the FT line.
Sad to say (and almost impossible to believe), he actually has regressed in each category.
This isn't panic. This isn't overreaction to an early-season aberration. This is looking at the facts.
42% FT shooting for the starting PG for a team with Sweet 16 (and beyond) aspirations! Wow! (And 25% this season, BTW.)
As soon as Derrick hits, say, 4 FTs in a row, folks can start talking about him being a real PG for a real contender.
How dare you bring up stats to be critical of Derrick's career performance. He passes the eye test of Brew City 77. Derrick created all 31 of the shots Jamil, Jake and Todd took. It's not Derrick's fault they missed the vast majority.
Quote from: Ners on November 17, 2013, 07:03:53 PM
Uhh...nice try jag....but the bet was for conference play...
You don't think his minutes during conference play were hampered by his suspension?
And perhaps you need to take a pill and calm down a tad.
Quote from: The Sultan of Syncopation on November 17, 2013, 08:30:58 PM
You don't think his minutes during conference play were hampered by his suspension?
And perhaps you need to take a pill and calm down a tad.
It doesn't matter if his minutes were hampered..it was points per 40 minutes...he played 322 minutes last year, or more than 8 full games. It's a relevant enough sample size for the bet that Guns and I made...and Mayo finished 3rd on the team in points per 40 minutes during conference play...finishing just .0059 points per 40 less than Vander.
As for the chill pill, I'm all good - it's your poor arguments that are bad. But I am glad to see you coming around on at least giving Dawson a shot to run the point a little more. It can't get much worse, right?
Quote from: MU82 on November 17, 2013, 07:43:31 PM
How many times in the first three games has Derrick beaten his man off the dribble, penetrated to the basket, and created for himself and others? I can remember a couple.
That is my definition of a PG making plays.
I wouldn't disagree with that. There have been a few times he did that, which is a few more than he did last year. Derrick's development will be a process as he is adjusting to a completely different role. Look at how much time it took for Junior to adjust to a similar role last year as he went from primarily a distributor to a driver and secondary scorer. And Junior was further along to start the season in that regard than Derrick is now.
Quote from: MU82 on November 17, 2013, 07:43:31 PMPicking up your dribble 25 feet from the basket, throwing an easy pass to somebody standing 10 feet away from you and having that somebody hit a 3 is not being a playmaker.
Finding the open man in a place they can score is being a playmaker. Maybe there's not as much flash to hitting the guy for the open three, but that makes it no less efficient. Though with this team, finding someone for the open three and them making it are two completely different things.
Quote from: MU82 on November 17, 2013, 07:43:31 PMI am not picking on Derrick. He is who he is. We need a better PG to be a legit team. That's Buzz's fault, not Derrick's. (And as anybody who would look at my history knows, I'm a HUGE Buzz fan. That doesn't mean he walks on water and is above a little criticism, though. He makes mistakes, too, and not having a PG for this team with its good frontcourt ranks as one of his biggest.)
It was far and away my No. 1 concern heading into this season, and not one thing has happened so far to make me believe I was incorrect. And I know I wasn't the only one who had that concern. Buzz probably had it, too, but would never admit it.
I agree that it's Buzz's fault more than Derrick's. I believe that Derrick can be a good enough PG to fill that role.
Quote from: MU82 on November 17, 2013, 07:43:31 PMOh, and no matter what any Derrick apologist might want to say about his alleged playmaking, it's pretty difficult to defend:
.275 ... .083 ... .422.
Those are his career shooting percentages from the floor, from 3-point range and -- yikes! -- from the FT line.
Junior's numbers were .387, .207, and 0.662 coming into his senior year. He definitely had more freedom as a player in his two prior years, but none of those numbers are overwhelming. I'm not saying DeWil is going to morph into Junior this year, but if he can get to the .350, .200, and .600 range, he'd be decent enough, and none of those seem unrealistic.
However to do that, he needs help. Scoring isn't his strong suit, we can all see that. The guys that are there to score need to do that to take the pressure off him and allow him some space to start moving those numbers up.
Quote from: MU82 on November 17, 2013, 07:43:31 PMThis isn't panic. This isn't overreaction to an early-season aberration. This is looking at the facts.
42% FT shooting for the starting PG for a team with Sweet 16 (and beyond) aspirations! Wow! (And 25% this season, BTW.)
As soon as Derrick hits, say, 4 FTs in a row, folks can start talking about him being a real PG for a real contender.
But it's also looking at a guy in two completely different roles. Even when Junior was Dwight's backup, he at least occasionally saw the reins come off. Derrick never had that. If Buzz has done this team any disservice, it is that Derrick wasn't given enough of a chance over the past two years to get a sense of what it will be like being the guy holding the keys. That means Derrick has to learn on the job. I think we'll get a much better sense of who he is around the New Year.
He's made some nice drives. He's found open guys to score. Does he need to do more of that? Yes. But he's starting to show signs that he can do this. He's getting lambasted for an awful team performance yesterday, and frankly it isn't fair to Derrick for him to take all the blame for the 4-31 performance from Jake, Todd, and Jamil, especially with the number of missed open looks. If he keeps growing into the role, we'll be fine. If he's already peaked, we'll be in trouble, because there's no indication that anyone else on this roster is going to do a better job.
Quote from: brewcity77 on November 17, 2013, 10:05:50 PM
I wouldn't disagree with that. There have been a few times he did that, which is a few more than he did last year. Derrick's development will be a process as he is adjusting to a completely different role. Look at how much time it took for Junior to adjust to a similar role last year as he went from primarily a distributor to a driver and secondary scorer. And Junior was further along to start the season in that regard than Derrick is now.
Finding the open man in a place they can score is being a playmaker. Maybe there's not as much flash to hitting the guy for the open three, but that makes it no less efficient. Though with this team, finding someone for the open three and them making it are two completely different things.
I agree that it's Buzz's fault more than Derrick's. I believe that Derrick can be a good enough PG to fill that role.
Junior's numbers were .387, .207, and 0.662 coming into his senior year. He definitely had more freedom as a player in his two prior years, but none of those numbers are overwhelming. I'm not saying DeWil is going to morph into Junior this year, but if he can get to the .350, .200, and .600 range, he'd be decent enough, and none of those seem unrealistic.
However to do that, he needs help. Scoring isn't his strong suit, we can all see that. The guys that are there to score need to do that to take the pressure off him and allow him some space to start moving those numbers up.
But it's also looking at a guy in two completely different roles. Even when Junior was Dwight's backup, he at least occasionally saw the reins come off. Derrick never had that. If Buzz has done this team any disservice, it is that Derrick wasn't given enough of a chance over the past two years to get a sense of what it will be like being the guy holding the keys. That means Derrick has to learn on the job. I think we'll get a much better sense of who he is around the New Year.
He's made some nice drives. He's found open guys to score. Does he need to do more of that? Yes. But he's starting to show signs that he can do this. He's getting lambasted for an awful team performance yesterday, and frankly it isn't fair to Derrick for him to take all the blame for the 4-31 performance from Jake, Todd, and Jamil, especially with the number of missed open looks. If he keeps growing into the role, we'll be fine. If he's already peaked, we'll be in trouble, because there's no indication that anyone else on this roster is going to do a better job.
You are the eternal optimist, brew, and I like that about you. You were calling MU a BE-championship-caliber team last year when few others were, and you were right.
I hope you're right about Derrick, too. I'd be thrilled to be wrong about him.
Quote from: Ners on November 17, 2013, 09:46:32 PM
As for the chill pill, I'm all good - it's your poor arguments that are bad. But I am glad to see you coming around on at least giving Dawson a shot to run the point a little more. It can't get much worse, right?
Don't change my argument.
I never said that Dawson shouldn't be given a chance to run the point. I specifically said that he did *not* outperform Derrick in the first two game, which was a point that you (and others) were making. In fact, I said that if you want to give him more minutes based on potential, that's fine.
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=40549.msg530906#msg530906