Last night around a bonfire me an some friends got into a little debate about whether buzz could ever get to or surpass Al's level. And I was curious what everybody thought. I mean obviously Al took a program that was reletively unknown and turned us into a powerhouse whereas Buzz took over in a different situation. But I'm just curious what it would take in all of your minds.
Win a National Championship.
Quote from: Aughnanure on August 05, 2013, 10:19:32 AM
Win a National Championship.
Win 2 National Championships or more....for Marquette of course.
It is more than championships.
Al was AL! even before he won his title in his final year. He got to a Final Four, losing to one of the great teams of that era. He elevated Marquette to "blue blood" status; we were considered legitimate national title contenders throughout the '70s. He brought in recruits that routinely would be taken high in the draft. He had a certain style that made him special.
Oh, and was there ever even a hint he would leave Marquette to go elsewhere? If so, I never heard about it. He was Mr. Marquette, through and through.
Buzz is on his way to becoming BUZZ!, a brand name in college basketball. He has a long way to go to be mentioned seriously with Al, but not nearly as long a way as he had just a couple years ago.
Al had MU at a level second only to UCLA during the final years of Wooden. Nearly a decade. It is not possible for Buzz to get MU to the level where they are the best team in the country year in and year out. Very good, a final four contender....well, MU/Buzz is close to that right now.
The Bucks tried to hire him and he wanted to take it IIRC....don't know all the details about why it didn't happen.
Quote from: MU82 on August 05, 2013, 10:44:46 AM
It is more than championships.
Al was AL! even before he won his title in his final year. He got to a Final Four, losing to one of the great teams of that era. He elevated Marquette to "blue blood" status; we were considered legitimate national title contenders throughout the '70s. He brought in recruits that routinely would be taken high in the draft. He had a certain style that made him special.
Oh, and was there ever even a hint he would leave Marquette to go elsewhere? If so, I never heard about it. He was Mr. Marquette, through and through.
Buzz is on his way to becoming BUZZ!, a brand name in college basketball. He has a long way to go to be mentioned seriously with Al, but not nearly as long a way as he had just a couple years ago.
Quote from: tower912 on August 05, 2013, 10:51:52 AM
Al had MU at a level second only to UCLA during the final years of Wooden. Nearly a decade. It is not possible for Buzz to get MU to the level where they are the best team in the country year in and year out. Very good, a final four contender....well, MU/Buzz is close to that right now.
According to 50 in 50 (I'd say is a pretty fair point system) we were third to UCLA and Kentucky.
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on August 05, 2013, 10:57:21 AM
According to 50 in 50 (I'd say is a pretty fair point system) we were third to UCLA and Kentucky.
And I think it is safe to say that given the current economics of college sports, it would be a near miracle for MU to get to that level again.
A championship.
Quote from: MuMark on August 05, 2013, 10:55:27 AM
The Bucks tried to hire him and he wanted to take it IIRC....don't know all the details about why it didn't happen.
Buck Raynor wouldn't let him out of his contract.
Given how much more exposure college basketball gets now. It is no longer a niche product, but rather part of the general culture especially during the NCCA tournament. Given, that there are more teams and more money involved, etc. If Buzz keeps doing what he has been doing for another 4 or 5 years, the impact/exposure on the University will be equal or greater than Al's. Maybe not amongst the diehards, but the overall impact.
To truly match Al on the court, he probably needs to win a championship. There is more competition now for the top spots and it is harder to achieve success year in and year out.
If he does what he has done for another 4 or 5 seasons, I would think it is nothing short of amazing and the impact will be equal to Al's.
Quote from: MuMark on August 05, 2013, 10:55:27 AM
The Bucks tried to hire him and he wanted to take it IIRC....don't know all the details about why it didn't happen.
Thanks, I didn't know that.
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on August 05, 2013, 10:57:21 AM
According to 50 in 50 (I'd say is a pretty fair point system) we were third to UCLA and Kentucky.
Kentucky had a better run than MU did during Al's years at MU? Color me skeptical.
MU was #2 in winning % for a decade behind UCLA.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on August 05, 2013, 11:20:01 AM
Buck Raynor wouldn't let him out of his contract.
Quote from: MU82 on August 05, 2013, 11:25:23 AM
Thanks, I didn't know that.
I believe Al's line about being held to his contract was something like: "The Jesuits take a vow of poverty and they expect everyone else to, too." Later Al admitted that he didn't think he would have been successful coaching "players who were making more than I was".
Quote from: MuMark on August 05, 2013, 10:55:27 AM
The Bucks tried to hire him and he wanted to take it IIRC....don't know all the details about why it didn't happen.
I heard he turned down the Notre Dame job too.
And in an interesting bit of symmetry, Digger tried to get the MU job after Al retired......or so I've heard.
Yeah and we were about to get Denny Crum from L'ville. Now that would have been sweet
Yeah, and Bobby Knight took the job only to back out after the news leaked.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on August 05, 2013, 03:49:36 PM
Yeah, and Bobby Knight took the job only to back out after the news leaked.
I didn't know that!!!
I guess he'd have to keep Marquette ranked in the top ten for ten years straight like Al did, have us picked top 5 preseason most years, and then win a national championship. It would be a huge accomplishment, but I still don't think he'd be revered as Al was. Al was Al.
57 more home wins in a row
Buzz can't reach Al. Al will always be Marquette's past. A wonderful time when we were "arrogant and obnoxious" and atop the world. He defined an attitude that permiated us all.
Buzz needs to be Buzz. He needs to reach maximum "Buzzness," which I hope is at leasst two or more national championships!
Revere the past but live in the present.
Quote from: dgies9156 on August 05, 2013, 06:45:00 PM
Buzz can't reach Al. Al will always be Marquette's past. A wonderful time when we were "arrogant and obnoxious" and atop the world. He defined an attitude that permiated us all.
Buzz needs to be Buzz. He needs to reach maximum "Buzzness," which I hope is at leasst two or more national championships!
Revere the past but live in the present.
If he wins 3 Championships he will.
Quote from: tower912 on August 05, 2013, 12:39:47 PM
Kentucky had a better run than MU did during Al's years at MU? Color me skeptical.
Just for the 70s they have two less tournament appearances, same number of sweet 16s, three more elite 8s same final fours, 1 runner up 1 title. Ill look at the end of the 60s but the more Adolph Rupp time you add the less promising it'll be.
Edit: yeah if you add in the 60s portion of Al's tenure vs Kentucky they get another sweet 16 another elite 8 and another runner up. While we get an elite 8 and sweet 16
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on August 05, 2013, 07:49:02 PM
Just for the 70s they have two less tournament appearances, same number of sweet 16s, three more elite 8s same final fours, 1 runner up 1 title. Ill look at the end of the 60s but the more Adolph Rupp time you add the less promising it'll be.
There's also the part where Adolph Rupp was a complete bigot and racist that should not be celebrated, less have an arena named after him. There's that compared to Al as well.
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on August 05, 2013, 07:49:02 PM
Just for the 70s they have two less tournament appearances, same number of sweet 16s, three more elite 8s same final fours, 1 runner up 1 title. Ill look at the end of the 60s but the more Adolph Rupp time you add the less promising it'll be.
Edit: yeah if you add in the 60s portion of Al's tenure vs Kentucky they get another sweet 16 another elite 8 and another runner up. While we get an elite 8 and sweet 16
Kentucky's title in the 70's was in 1978, the year AFTER Al left. Kentucky's runner up in the 60's was in 66 in Al's second year.We were in a major rebuilding program (MU was 5-21 the year before Al arrived).
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on August 05, 2013, 10:13:07 AM
Last night around a bonfire me an some friends got into a little debate about whether buzz could ever get to or surpass Al's level. And I was curious what everybody thought. I mean obviously Al took a program that was reletively unknown and turned us into a powerhouse whereas Buzz took over in a different situation. But I'm just curious what it would take in all of your minds.
Go to two Final Fours, win a national title, be consistently in the top 10, have the second best winning percentage of any team in the country for a decade....for starters.
Right now, I'd settle for one Final Four and we go from there
Quote from: 4everwarriors on August 05, 2013, 03:49:36 PM
Yeah, and Bobby Knight took the job only to back out after the news leaked.
That was the Wisconsin job, before he went to Indiana.
Quote from: Shooter Flatch on August 05, 2013, 08:20:44 PM
That was the Wisconsin job, before he went to Indiana.
Correct.
Time + one Final Four....there is an inherent recency advantage as we creep toward the 40th anniversary of the championship and the 50th of the beginning.....
You have to add in the fact that Al refused to go to the tournament one year and went to the NIT instead as a protest.
Quote from: PTM on August 05, 2013, 07:53:02 PM
There's also the part where Adolph Rupp was a complete bigot and racist that should not be celebrated, less have an arena named after him. There's that compared to Al as well.
As a person he was not a role model but I'm purely talking basketball which has absolutely nothing to do with his morals
Quote from: Shooter Flatch on August 05, 2013, 08:20:44 PM
That was the Wisconsin job, before he went to Indiana.
Beat me to it.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on August 05, 2013, 08:09:06 PM
Kentucky's title in the 70's was in 1978, the year AFTER Al left. Kentucky's runner up in the 60's was in 66 in Al's second year.We were in a major rebuilding program (MU was 5-21 the year before Al arrived).
I understand the rebuilding project but that wasnt the question I was answering it was just Kentucky vs MU during Al's tenure. Good pout about 1978 though I was only looking at my spreadsheet forgot to double check the year.
Personality-wise, no way will he rival Al. Just appreciate Buzz for who he is.
Statistically, two NCAA titles and at least two decades of dominance.
It's more of an uneven playing field for MU now that it really relies on conference alignments to help keep them relevant to a degree. But the faithful MU following helps to offset that a bit.
Al did it for almost two decades. During the John Wooden years.
That's tough.
He'd have to do a JTII and Georgetown-like title and similar "dominance" (and public relevance).
Al was indeed Al, and completely unique. Buzz is also kind of unique. Here's hoping he has the continued success at MU that would make this a real point for discussion.
Buzz has to do three things to reach Al status.
1. Make Marquette part of the national basketball consciousness. We don't have to be top-5 every year, but we need mentioned alongside Michigan State, Kansas, Kentucky, North Carolina, and Duke as an elite program.
2. Win a national championship. All the other accolades, the Final Fours and #1 rankings, would be great, but ultimately just window dressing. He needs to give Marquette that one moment where we are back on top again.
3. Retire at Marquette. He can't go on the coach somewhere else, whether with more success or less, and still be regarded in the same way as someone like Al.
Quote from: brewcity77 on August 06, 2013, 07:26:24 AM
Buzz has to do three things to reach Al status.
1. Make Marquette part of the national basketball consciousness. We don't have to be top-5 every year, but we need mentioned alongside Michigan State, Kansas, Kentucky, North Carolina, and Duke as an elite program.
2. Win a national championship. All the other accolades, the Final Fours and #1 rankings, would be great, but ultimately just window dressing. He needs to give Marquette that one moment where we are back on top again.
3. Retire at Marquette. He can't go on the coach somewhere else, whether with more success or less, and still be regarded in the same way as someone like Al.
That is a pretty fair assessment. Al can't be surpassed, but he can be reached. However, longevity with top level success are the only ways to get there.
Buzz has the personality and quirkiness to reach Al's plateau. But, his team's will have to perform on the Court. In the end, I think (1) retire at MU, and (2) win a National Championship are the keys.
Quote from: brewcity77 on August 06, 2013, 07:26:24 AM
Buzz has to do three things to reach Al status.
1. Make Marquette part of the national basketball consciousness. We don't have to be top-5 every year, but we need mentioned alongside Michigan State, Kansas, Kentucky, North Carolina, and Duke as an elite program.
Let's relax that a bit and just say "in the same breath" as Zona, Michigan St, Cuse, Ville, etc.
Ok let me put it like this do you think at Ville they say Pitino will never be Crum? Or at UNC they are saying Roy Williams will never reach Dean Smith?
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on August 05, 2013, 09:37:15 PM
As a person he was not a role model but I'm purely talking basketball which has absolutely nothing to do with his morals
I wouldn't say absolutely nothing, in fact the opposite until Texas Western forced his hand.
Quote from: PTM on August 06, 2013, 10:39:46 AM
I wouldn't say absolutely nothing, in fact the opposite until Texas Western forced his hand.
First off it's known he was a racist, that movie though blew that wayyy out of proportion. I could just call him more conservative in his views with trying to stick with tradition rather than something new (Of course being at Marquette/on this board I'd get killed for associating conservatism with that). Next, tell me what any of those views have to do with his coaching? The fact is he was a damn good coach and he had success in tremendously different eras of basketball which earned my respect purely from a basketball standpoint.
Al won 20+ games 11 straight years. Today's equivalent to 20 wins is 25 due to greater number of games played. I think Buzz needs to win 30+ games at least 3 times in the next 8 years to be even compared to McGuire, which would help get his 13 year winning percentage closer to Al's. I do think in Buzz's first 5 years MU has played a tougher schedule than it did under Al, which somewhat accounts for Buzz's 69% winning percentage vs Al's 79%.
Quote from: Aughnanure on August 06, 2013, 10:34:18 AM
Let's relax that a bit and just say "in the same breath" as Zona, Michigan St, Cuse, Ville, etc.
And lets not forget about OSU, UF, and UConn...unless we passed them by with a couple championships that i missed.
Asking this question shows a lack of understanding about what Al accomplished at Marquette as well as a lack of understanding about how college basketball has evolved.
Buzz will never reach Al because in the current collegiate basketball world no one could. The money has gotten so much bigger that the competition has grown several times more intense. Xavier was a gimme game. Georgetown was pathetic. Florida and Florida State were patsies.
The shoe companies weren't using AAU clubs to steer players to colleges that wore their shoes. Marquette had the coolest uniforms - two of which were banned by the NCAA during Al's tenure.
Everything that Al accomplished he accomplished in 13 years. Buzz is entering year six. By year six, Al and Marquette were one of the few 800 pound gorillas in the recruiting world. By this time in Diamond Stone's recruitment, it would be down to Marquette and UCLA or maybe North Carolina. But most would figure that Stone was a lock to join Kevon Looney at Marquette. Duane Wilson would still be thanking his lucky stars that Al found him a spot on the roster.
While Buzz inherited an NCAA team, MU was 5-21 the year before Al arrived as Lenny's Tap points out. Al's first year, MU went 8-18, the next year they were 14-12, then as bislu points out Al won 20+ games 11 straight years. Bilsu beat me to the punch at pointing out the the 10 point advantage Al has over Buzz in win % in spite of the easier start that Buzz had.
Probably the toughest thing to comprehend by someone who was not a Marquette fan during the McGuire era was McGuire's incredible force of personality. People (myself included), love Buzz's folksy persona. Compared to Al, Buzz is a complete piker. Go on Amazon.com and search Al McGuire. The first four listings will be the four books written about Al. One of which is wholly devoted to quotes by the man himself. He was arguably the most popular college basketball color commentator ever. He never had to worry about pissing the AD off because he was the AD. One of his better known quotes was something like: "Most think that basketball teams reflect the personality of their coach, my teams are arrogant and obnoxious." Most of us would argue with AL about him being arrogant. Sure, he didn't back down from anyone. When he felt that the NCAA screwed MU with the regional they put us in, he simply took the team to the NIT and won. (The NIT at that time was far more than the consolation prize for those who missed the NCAA). The NCAA then felt the need to pass a rule preventing that from happening again. The last few years at MU when Al would try to talk to a ref, inevitability the crowd would chant; "Give 'em hell, Al" When he left coaching, the native New Yorker stayed in Milwaukee, and started Al's run. He continued to be the best possible ambassador for MU and Milwaukee until his death.
He cried without shame on the bench at the end of the NCAA championship game for Christsakes! When it was announced that his illness was terminal, he had to hire an appointments secretary to handle all the visit requests he received in the last months of his life.
Keep dreaming kid, you missed Al, and the likes of him ain't coming along again for a very, very long time.
Oh, and then there was that play that his broadcasting partner, another legend, Dick Emberg felt that he had to write about Al.
oops! nm
Quote from: LittleMurs on August 06, 2013, 12:35:42 PM
Asking this question shows a lack of understanding about what Al accomplished at Marquette as well as a lack of understanding about how college basketball has evolved.
Keep dreaming kid, you missed Al, and the likes of him ain't coming along again for a very, very long time.
I think you entirely missed the point of why I asked this or to use your way of speaking writing this response shows a lack of understanding about what I was asking in this thread. I was trying to include everyone in a bonfire conversation and hear the perspectives of others, wasn't implying I think Buzz could surpass him or anything. Let's say Buzz reaches all the same tournament stats as Al (not very fair considering a sweet 16 is harder now) I was curious if people would ever see like a Buzz dancing on WVU's court statue in the lobby of the Al Mcguire center or something.
Quote from: Aughnanure on August 06, 2013, 10:34:18 AM
Let's relax that a bit and just say "in the same breath" as Zona, Michigan St, Cuse, Ville, etc.
Are you kidding? We aren't talking about what it would take for Buzz to be regarded as a good or successful coach. We are talking about him being on the same level as Al McGuire, who was one of the greats of his generation. Al is the be-all end-all of Marquette coaching and the only MU coach that would get any legitimate consideration to be on the all-time college basketball Mount Rushmore. For Buzz to get to that level, which is the discussion at hand, I feel he needs to get Marquette to the point where we are regarded as one of the 5-10 best programs in the country for an extended period of time.
When Al was here, the list was UCLA, Marquette, Kentucky, and a small handful of other schools. For Buzz to match that, he needs us to be near the top of that small handful, not in the "also receiving votes" category.
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on August 06, 2013, 01:33:15 PM
I think you entirely missed the point of why I asked this or to use your way of speaking writing this response shows a lack of understanding about what I was asking in this thread. I was trying to include everyone in a bonfire conversation and hear the perspectives of others, wasn't implying I think Buzz could surpass him or anything. Let's say Buzz reaches all the same tournament stats as Al (not very fair considering a sweet 16 is harder now) I was curious if people would ever see like a Buzz dancing on WVU's court statue in the lobby of the Al Mcguire center or something.
But that was my crotchety old man around a bonfire response!
Quote from: brewcity77 on August 06, 2013, 04:24:23 PM
Are you kidding? We aren't talking about what it would take for Buzz to be regarded as a good or successful coach. We are talking about him being on the same level as Al McGuire, who was one of the greats of his generation. Al is the be-all end-all of Marquette coaching and the only MU coach that would get any legitimate consideration to be on the all-time college basketball Mount Rushmore. For Buzz to get to that level, which is the discussion at hand, I feel he needs to get Marquette to the point where we are regarded as one of the 5-10 best programs in the country for an extended period of time.
When Al was here, the list was UCLA, Marquette, Kentucky, and a small handful of other schools. For Buzz to match that, he needs us to be near the top of that small handful, not in the "also receiving votes" category.
Sorry, but Al McGuire did not make us into a blue-blood considered program the way people speak of Kentucky, Kansas, UCLA, UNC, Indiana and Duke (justified or unjustified). Maybe it was just timing (ya know, before ESPN and running during the UCLA power era), but for whatever reason Marquette's name never became what Indiana's and Duke's are. We didn't distinguish ourselves enough. To be brutally honest, not enough championships or Final Fours. If he would have, the debacles in the 80s and 90s wouldn't have happened.
For Buzz to reach the level where we are talked about as equals to Kansas and UNC (especially now considering the current ESPN/Sports climate that only pays attention to the big names) would mean he has surpassed Al.
Quote from: LittleMurs on August 06, 2013, 12:35:42 PM
Al's first year, MU went 8-18, the next year they were 14-12, then as bislu points out Al won 20+ games 11 straight years.
Had Buzz won 8 games his first year and 14 his second, there very well might not have been a third. Or at least, the impatience from fans like us would have made many of us declare that there shouldn't have been a third.
Look up Coach K's early record. Or Wooden's. Or many other great, successful coaches.
That's one of the big things that has changed. There is zero patience now. Gotta win today!
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on August 06, 2013, 10:59:38 AM
First off it's known he was a racist, that movie though blew that wayyy out of proportion. I could just call him more conservative in his views with trying to stick with tradition rather than something new (Of course being at Marquette/on this board I'd get killed for associating conservatism with that). Next, tell me what any of those views have to do with his coaching? The fact is he was a damn good coach and he had success in tremendously different eras of basketball which earned my respect purely from a basketball standpoint.
Way out of proportion? Come on. Even Al McGuire refused a public appearance with Rupp due to his racism.
I don't see how you are missing the racist views with his coaching.
Refuses to roster a black player until he gets trumped by Texas Western. Realizes he cannot coach and win without black players. Recruits black players and begins to win.
I guess you could see that as progressive, but whatever. The guy doesn't reserve respect regardless of coaching talent.
Quote from: MU82 on August 06, 2013, 04:46:29 PM
Had Buzz won 8 games his first year and 14 his second, there very well might not have been a third. Or at least, the impatience from fans like us would have made many of us declare that there shouldn't have been a third.
Look up Coach K's early record. Or Wooden's. Or many other great, successful coaches.
That's one of the big things that has changed. There is zero patience now. Gotta win today!
Sounds like TC's record at IU first 3 years. And yes, I agree with you....that's why he demanded a huge contract and years to force that patience because so little of it does exist today.
Aughnanure
Are you kidding me? MU was high blueblood during the Al era. When you do not leave the top ten for a decade, an off the charts well known coach and AA's you are in the blueblood team photo. That is why the old timers on here hold current status of program to different standards. We were a national power and a high profile national power.
Quote from: Aughnanure on August 06, 2013, 04:40:30 PM
Sorry, but Al McGuire did not make us into a blue-blood considered program the way people speak of Kentucky, Kansas, UCLA, UNC, Indiana and Duke (justified or unjustified). Maybe it was just timing (ya know, before ESPN and running during the UCLA power era), but for whatever reason Marquette's name never became what Indiana's and Duke's are. We didn't distinguish ourselves enough. To be brutally honest, not enough championships or Final Fours. If he would have, the debacles in the 80s and 90s wouldn't have happened.
That doesn't mean that Marquette fans don't regard ourselves in that way. Just this past week I have seen discussions talking about how we were the #2 team to UCLA and that arguments between us and Kentucky shouldn't even be that close because Rupp couldn't win until after Al retired.
Changing standards and the ESPN culture you describes means that for Buzz to be regarded as Al's equal, especially by fans of the Al era, he must surpass him. And my guess is for some, even that may not be enough.
Quote from: Goose on August 06, 2013, 05:15:06 PM
Aughnanure
Are you kidding me? MU was high blueblood during the Al era. When you do not leave the top ten for a decade, an off the charts well known coach and AA's you are in the blueblood team photo. That is why the old timers on here hold current status of program to different standards. We were a national power and a high profile national power.
Eloquent, simply eloquent.
Quote from: Goose on August 06, 2013, 05:15:06 PM
Aughnanure
Are you kidding me? MU was high blueblood during the Al era. When you do not leave the top ten for a decade, an off the charts well known coach and AA's you are in the blueblood team photo. That is why the old timers on here hold current status of program to different standards. We were a national power and a high profile national power.
Blue bloods stay blue bloods. There are only 5.
Quote from: brewcity77 on August 06, 2013, 05:44:13 PM
That doesn't mean that Marquette fans don't regard ourselves in that way. Just this past week I have seen discussions talking about how we were the #2 team to UCLA and that arguments between us and Kentucky shouldn't even be that close because Rupp couldn't win until after Al retired.
Changing standards and the ESPN culture you describes means that for Buzz to be regarded as Al's equal, especially by fans of the Al era, he must surpass him. And my guess is for some, even that may not be enough.
If Buzz merely equaled Al, the acclaim that he would receive would be more than sufficient to totally drown out anything from the "I remember Al" crowd. It's just not happening. Which is not to say that Buzz is in any way underachieving. I have always been one of those in disagreement with Sultan/Terror's position that MU could hire another coach after Buzz who could continue the current success without skipping a beat.
LittleMurs
Agreed on your post. I am a remember Al guy, but want Buzz to trump him big time. Different time and different expectations. Buzz is closest anyone has come to making me want to put away my Al shrine. He might never be Al and I am fine with that. You are correct that losing Buzz would be major negative to program.
Quote from: LittleMurs on August 06, 2013, 06:43:51 PM
If Buzz merely equaled Al, the acclaim that he would receive would be more than sufficient to totally drown out anything from the "I remember Al" crowd. It's just not happening. Which is not to say that Buzz is in any way underachieving. I have always been one of those in disagreement with Sultan/Terror's position that MU could hire another coach after Buzz who could continue the current success without skipping a beat.
Do you at least recognize that it is possible? It's been done many places before. Many resources at MU. Doesn't mean they will get it right, but it seems like some of you think it is impossible.
Quote from: Aughnanure on August 06, 2013, 06:40:13 PM
Blue bloods stay blue bloods. There are only 5.
Kentucky, Duke, UNC, UCLA, IU, Kansas. Who you leaving off?
Quote from: brewcity77 on August 06, 2013, 05:44:13 PM
That doesn't mean that Marquette fans don't regard ourselves in that way. Just this past week I have seen discussions talking about how we were the #2 team to UCLA and that arguments between us and Kentucky shouldn't even be that close because Rupp couldn't win until after Al retired.
Changing standards and the ESPN culture you describes means that for Buzz to be regarded as Al's equal, especially by fans of the Al era, he must surpass him. And my guess is for some, even that may not be enough.
+1. Buzz needs to surpass Al to even be considered equal to what people remember. Al didnt have to compete against the ESPN attention the big boys get and if Buzz can not only compete but win that battle he will have surpassed him.
But this is all getting so far ahead of ourselves, feel we're jinxing ourselves.
Quote from: ElDonBDon on August 06, 2013, 07:53:54 PM
Kentucky, Duke, UNC, UCLA, IU, Kansas. Who you leaving off?
Duke. I feel they're kind of added by people who love the UNC rivalry. If they're on it, then why not Michigan St. Not a big deal either way, I'll accept it if pushed.
Quote from: PTM on August 06, 2013, 04:52:43 PM
Way out of proportion? Come on. Even Al McGuire refused a public appearance with Rupp due to his racism.
I don't see how you are missing the racist views with his coaching.
Refuses to roster a black player until he gets trumped by Texas Western. Realizes he cannot coach and win without black players. Recruits black players and begins to win.
I guess you could see that as progressive, but whatever. The guy doesn't reserve respect regardless of coaching talent.
http://www.620wtmj.com/news/local/137426413.html?lc=Smart
I implore you to read this article. George Thompson himself says nobody wanted to be the first to join a team in an area that hated blacks. Not saying that Rupp was the most accepting person but he tried and nobody wanted to join.
Quote from: Aughnanure on August 06, 2013, 08:53:24 PM
Duke. I feel they're kind of added by people who love the UNC rivalry. If they're on it, then why not Michigan St. Not a big deal either way, I'll accept it if pushed.
Well, if that means you're saying we can be on Duke's non blue blood level sign me up.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on August 06, 2013, 04:54:15 PM
Sounds like TC's record at IU first 3 years.
Not even close.
My only thought is that the fact this topic actually was posted and thought of, and generated as much discussion as it has - is quite the testament to the job Buzz has done. For it to even be fathomable that he could approach Al's accomplishments is quite exciting. In looking at the talent he was on the roster and has coming in - I think it is safe to say, we are trending toward being a consistent Top 8-15 team/program - and that should be good enough to see Final Four, National Championship territory...
Quote from: Aughnanure on August 06, 2013, 08:53:24 PM
Duke. I feel they're kind of added by people who love the UNC rivalry. If they're on it, then why not Michigan St. Not a big deal either way, I'll accept it if pushed.
A lot of people try to discount how good Duke was before Coach K. They were already one of the better programs in the country before him with the exception of one bad hire that didn't last long. If they don't belong on the list, neither does UCLA.
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on August 06, 2013, 10:59:38 AM
First off it's known he was a racist, that movie though blew that wayyy out of proportion. I could just call him more conservative in his views with trying to stick with tradition rather than something new (Of course being at Marquette/on this board I'd get killed for associating conservatism with that). Next, tell me what any of those views have to do with his coaching? The fact is he was a damn good coach and he had success in tremendously different eras of basketball which earned my respect purely from a basketball standpoint.
There's no such thing as "kind of" a racist. Rupp was a horrible human being. He was shaped by his times but he also helped shape his times. He had the power and the bully pulpit to be more than a basketball coach. He chose to keep blacks "in their place." A miserable cur is what he was.
Quote from: brewcity77 on August 06, 2013, 09:54:21 PM
A lot of people try to discount how good Duke was before Coach K. They were already one of the better programs in the country before him with the exception of one bad hire that didn't last long. If they don't belong on the list, neither does UCLA.
I agree.
Quite frankly, the greatest accomplishment in terms of building a program up from scratch in the modern era belongs to Jim Calhoun. And its not even close. He took an after-thought program and turned it into a powerhouse...winning 3 titles and sending a ton of kids to the NBA in the lottery.
Coach K didnt do that. Duke was the runner-up in '78 and K signed on in '80. Boeheim didnt do that (Syracuse went to the Final 4 in 1975...and Dave Bing (one of the greatest college players ever) was pre-Boeheim. Boeheim took over in 1977....
Quote from: Aughnanure on August 06, 2013, 08:53:24 PM
Duke. I feel they're kind of added by people who love the UNC rivalry. If they're on it, then why not Michigan St. Not a big deal either way, I'll accept it if pushed.
Yeah 6 runner ups 4 championships 15 final fours I'd say is blue blood
Quote from: MU82 on August 06, 2013, 10:14:15 PM
There's no such thing as "kind of" a racist. Rupp was a horrible human being. He was shaped by his times but he also helped shape his times. He had the power and the bully pulpit to be more than a basketball coach. He chose to keep blacks "in their place." A miserable cur is what he was.
Where did I say kind of? And in regards to being able to shape times and the like but instead sticking with the traditions that's where I draw the conservative comparison.
How many schools can brag of having had 2 absolutely legendary coaches? There was Adolph Rupp and ???, John Wooden followed by a parade of wooden Jons, Dean Smith followed by a bunch of Amateurs, Bobby Knight followed by a cheater and a guy who will never be a legend. If Buzz consistently keeps MU in the tournament, in the top 20, in the National Media and in the NBA, he has a chance at being MU's second legend. If he wins a couple championships, he cements it. Let's hope he sticks around to do it.
Quote from: brewcity77 on August 06, 2013, 07:26:24 AM
Buzz has to do three things to reach Al status.
1. Make Marquette part of the national basketball consciousness. We don't have to be top-5 every year, but we need mentioned alongside Michigan State, Kansas, Kentucky, North Carolina, and Duke as an elite program.
2. Win a national championship. All the other accolades, the Final Fours and #1 rankings, would be great, but ultimately just window dressing. He needs to give Marquette that one moment where we are back on top again.
3. Retire at Marquette. He can't go on the coach somewhere else, whether with more success or less, and still be regarded in the same way as someone like Al.
4. Become a very colorful and sought after basketball commentary guy for televised games on a major sports network.
Crum and pitino; rupp, pitino, smith, calipari;smith and wiliams; naismith, brown, williams, self.
Quote from: downtown85 on August 07, 2013, 03:43:50 AM
4. Become a very colorful and sought after basketball commentary guy for televised games on a major sports network.
Honestly, I thought about adding that to my original criteria. Part of what made Al Al was that he was woven into the national basketball tapestry for 2 decades after he left. It also doesn't get any better than cutting down the nets in your final year when all the world knows it's your last shot.
That's why Buzz matching Al is such a Herculean task. Al was more than winning and turning MU into an elite program, he was a persona and an enduring ambassador. I hope Buzz gets there, but I realize that in some people's eyes, that's a near impossibility.
brewcity
I actually think that the extreme pro Al group is pulling harder for Buzz. We saw what a legend can do to make a program and actually have experience to compare it with. Since the day Al left MU I have been pulling for the next Al and believe Buzz is closest to being there in long time. Cannot speak for all the older guys, but I know the world has changed since March of 1977. Buzz has different challenges than Al did and it looks like he is passing them all with flying colors. IMO Buzz's quirkiness, ability to relate with city kids and shoot from the hip communication makes him a modern day Al to some extent.
Winning is big part of it for the Al group and that will not change. Making MU a brand again is even bigger to me. I want us to be an opposing team's biggest game and have other team's fans wanting to be beat us badly. Winning gives you a target, but us against the world mentality enhances that IMO.
Grow to 6'5", develop a New York accent, and drive a Harley!
Quote from: Lennys Tap on August 06, 2013, 09:40:59 PM
Not even close.
Please explain how it isn't close
He won 6 games year one
10 games year two
12 games year three
I'd say quite close
Quote from: Atticus on August 06, 2013, 10:18:50 PM
I agree.
Quite frankly, the greatest accomplishment in terms of building a program up from scratch in the modern era belongs to Jim Calhoun. And its not even close. He took an after-thought program and turned it into a powerhouse...winning 3 titles and sending a ton of kids to the NBA in the lottery.
Coach K didnt do that. Duke was the runner-up in '78 and K signed on in '80. Boeheim didnt do that (Syracuse went to the Final 4 in 1975...and Dave Bing (one of the greatest college players ever) was pre-Boeheim. Boeheim took over in 1977....
3 titles?
Quote from: MU82 on August 06, 2013, 04:46:29 PM
Had Buzz won 8 games his first year and 14 his second, there very well might not have been a third. Or at least, the impatience from fans like us would have made many of us declare that there shouldn't have been a third.
Look up Coach K's early record. Or Wooden's. Or many other great, successful coaches.
That's one of the big things that has changed. There is zero patience now. Gotta win today!
I believe only won 4 games the year before so 8 was an improvement. Also, because freshmen could not play back then it took longer to turn a program around.
Quote from: Marqevans on August 07, 2013, 08:04:19 AM
Grow to 6'5", develop a New York accent, and drive a Harley!
Also, be a bar room brawler, recruit NYC with the Midas touch, and have a son that can shoot the three. Playing in the NBA, being Irish-Italian, "owning Cousy" and being exceedingly brash would also help.
Quote from: willie warrior on August 07, 2013, 09:02:48 AM
Also, be a bar room brawler, recruit NYC with the Midas touch, and have a son that can shoot the three. Playing in the NBA, being Irish-Italian, "owning Cousy" and being exceedingly brash would also help.
Wait, being able to recruit a 5 star big man isn't on your list?
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on August 07, 2013, 08:24:35 AM
Please explain how it isn't close
He won 6 games year one
10 games year two
12 games year three
I'd say quite close
Year 1: Crean 6-25 .193% McGuire 8-18 .313%
Year 2: Crean 10-21 .323% McGuire 14-12 .539%
Year 3: Crean 12-20 .375%. McGuire 21-9 .693%
Totals: Crean 28-66 .298% McGuire 43-39. .524%
Quite close? In what universe? The one where the Houston Astro were "quite close" to the St Louis Cardinals last year?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on August 07, 2013, 09:48:05 AM
Year 1: Crean 6-25 .193% McGuire 8-18 .313%
Year 2: Crean 10-21 .323% McGuire 14-12 .539%
Year 3: Crean 12-20 .375%. McGuire 21-9 .693%
Totals: Crean 28-66 .298% McGuire 43-39. .524%
Quite close? In what universe? The one where the Houston Astro were "quite close" to the St Louis Cardinals last year?
Ahh, now I see what you are saying. We interpreted the statement totally differently (and thus the comparison), but now I get where you are coming from. I am coming from a totally different angle, nothing to do with Al.
I took it as if Buzz (in today's impatient world) were to win only 8 games and 14 games in his first two years, he may not be around for a third year....or it was something to that effect from
Brew MU82. I said, that's close to what TC did (6 and 10...actually worse than 8 and 14) at IU and he's still around. My point was that I agreed that people are less patient and that's why he demanded a longer term deal to allow him to get to years 4 and 5. So I wasn't comparing him to Al, I was comparing the situation that actually a guy at a big time program can have that kind of record in his first two years and still survive even in today's impatient world, but it requires an administration to bet in the long term with a lot of money and a long contract to protect the coach, show the commitment and keep the natives from jumping off a ledge.
He will never equal Al, but a championship will put him pretty close. Similar to Dean Smith and Roy Williams at UNC. Originators are rarely equalled.
Quote from: Goose on August 07, 2013, 07:08:18 AM
brewcity
I actually think that the extreme pro Al group is pulling harder for Buzz. We saw what a legend can do to make a program and actually have experience to compare it with. Since the day Al left MU I have been pulling for the next Al and believe Buzz is closest to being there in long time. Cannot speak for all the older guys, but I know the world has changed since March of 1977. Buzz has different challenges than Al did and it looks like he is passing them all with flying colors. IMO Buzz's quirkiness, ability to relate with city kids and shoot from the hip communication makes him a modern day Al to some extent.
Winning is big part of it for the Al group and that will not change. Making MU a brand again is even bigger to me. I want us to be an opposing team's biggest game and have other team's fans wanting to be beat us badly. Winning gives you a target, but us against the world mentality enhances that IMO.
Perfectly stated, Goose. We "old timers" who were lucky enough to experience the Al era (and all that's come since) know it will never quite be the same - too much competition, too much money spent by power conference teams who used to all but ignore basketball, etc. Even Al couldn't quite be the Al of old in today's environment. That said, most of us realize that Buzz is the first "It" guy MU has hired since Al and that those guys are extremely hard to find. Many think we'll be fine if Buzz were to leave. If fine is the TC era, I agree. But we're better than that now, and we're on the verge of being a top 15 program, something we haven't been since maybe 1980. It's a fun ride, one I want all my MU brethren who were too young for the first one to experience.
Quote from: brewcity77 on August 06, 2013, 09:54:21 PM
A lot of people try to discount how good Duke was before Coach K. They were already one of the better programs in the country before him with the exception of one bad hire that didn't last long. If they don't belong on the list, neither does UCLA.
Not trying to discount them at all. But they didn't win their 1st championship until 1991, so they are a much more recent addition to the Blue Bloods if you want to continue expanding it. Michigan St won in 79, Louisville in 80 and 86 and now in 2013. I think then you have to start considering those two programs to add onto the list as well.
I like keeping it at 5 more because those are the biggest programs in each of those 5 conferences.
Patientce has to do with where the program was and where it is going. Al inherited a team that won 4 games, so he had a lot of room. Crean at Indiana inherited a team with practically no players, so he had a lot of room. If Crean now had back to back 19-12 seasons at Indiana like he did after Wade left MU he might very well get fired. Buzz would have been fired after his first season, if he had won only 8 games with the three amigos. The second most winningest coach at MU percentage wise was Hank Raymonds, but he was unapprecaited by many fans, because he was not as successful as McGuire. He would of been a hero, if he did that after the Dukiet disaster.
Quote from: Aughnanure on August 07, 2013, 11:18:34 AM
Not trying to discount them at all. But they didn't win their 1st championship until 1991, so they are a much more recent addition to the Blue Bloods if you want to continue expanding it. Michigan St won in 79, Louisville in 80 and 86 and now in 2013. I think then you have to start considering those two programs to add onto the list as well.
I like keeping it at 5 more because those are the biggest programs in each of those 5 conferences.
I can't put MSU in there yet. They have the same number of titles as Oklahoma State, San Francisco, Florida, NC State, Cincinnati, . There additional Final Fours make them close, but not quite over the top IMO. To me it is 6 schools, even though I include KU as one of them and there are other schools with 3 titles (Louisville, UCONN) that I don't put in that same group because KU has many more Final Four appearances and conference titles and have done it for decades.
UCLA
UK
IU
UNC
Duke
KU
On the cusp
Louisville, UCONN
Lenny
I agree with the younger fans enjoying this ride. Reading posts over the years and seeing younger fans favorite players or moments in threads it made me realize how lucky we were to be around when al was here. I am hoping that in three years the younger fans are talking about statement players and games as best MU ball memory. Buzz us MU knocking at the door and big things are within reach.
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on August 06, 2013, 09:27:36 PM
http://www.620wtmj.com/news/local/137426413.html?lc=Smart
I implore you to read this article. George Thompson himself says nobody wanted to be the first to join a team in an area that hated blacks. Not saying that Rupp was the most accepting person but he tried and nobody wanted to join.
Are you kidding me? Adolph Rupp was a bigot, pure and simple. The first African American basketball player in the SEC was Perry Wallace. He played for Vanderbilt from 1966 to 1968 after being an incredible ballplayer at Nashville Pearl.
Rupp was the New York Yankees of the SEC. About the last team to integrate in the mid 1970s. Everybody else recruited African Americans in the SEC before Rupp did!
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on August 07, 2013, 11:55:46 AM
I can't put MSU in there yet. They have the same number of titles as Oklahoma State, San Francisco, Florida, NC State, Cincinnati, . There additional Final Fours make them close, but not quite over the top IMO. To me it is 6 schools, even though I include KU as one of them and there are other schools with 3 titles (Louisville, UCONN) that I don't put in that same group because KU has many more Final Four appearances and conference titles and have done it for decades.
UCLA
UK
IU
UNC
Duke
KU
On the cusp
Louisville, UCONN
Plus KU is one of the three programs with the most wins
Quote from: dgies9156 on August 07, 2013, 12:39:36 PM
Are you kidding me? Adolph Rupp was a bigot, pure and simple. The first African American basketball player in the SEC was Perry Wallace. He played for Vanderbilt from 1966 to 1968 after being an incredible ballplayer at Nashville Pearl.
Rupp was the New York Yankees of the SEC. About the last team to integrate in the mid 1970s. Everybody else recruited African Americans in the SEC before Rupp did!
The first African American to play for Rupp was a 7'1" center who was the same year as Chones. After his sophomore season ended (they lost to MU in the NCAA consolation game after MU lost to Ohio St.)he went to jail for rape. I can still remember wondering if he was actuaally guilty or set up by Kentucky racists who did not want to have blacks on their team. I visited the Univerity of Kentucky about 8 years ago. Right on the edge of campus is a historical site where slaves were auctioned off. Kentucky does have an amazing basketball museum adjacent to Rupp Arena.
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on August 07, 2013, 12:52:52 PM
Plus KU is one of the three programs with the most wins
Absolutely. Especially in light of the early years when UCLA and others had a layup into the Elite 8. The NCAAs are a crapshoot enough already, but KU and others have shown year in and year out with all those wins, etc to be one of the super IMO.
Kentucky also won NC under Pitino, Smith, and Cal. You are saying Al was a legend yet his record is not better then Cals/Pitino.
Roy Williams would be a legend at any school......
I think you are way off here
ps. How about he wins one before we talka bout 2? ::)
Quote from: jtbh6b1 on August 07, 2013, 01:30:12 AM
How many schools can brag of having had 2 absolutely legendary coaches? There was Adolph Rupp and ???, John Wooden followed by a parade of wooden Jons, Dean Smith followed by a bunch of Amateurs, Bobby Knight followed by a cheater and a guy who will never be a legend. If Buzz consistently keeps MU in the tournament, in the top 20, in the National Media and in the NBA, he has a chance at being MU's second legend. If he wins a couple championships, he cements it. Let's hope he sticks around to do it.
Quote from: MuMark on August 07, 2013, 02:20:38 PM
Kentucky also won NC under Pitino, Smith, and Cal. You are saying Al was a legend yet his record is not better then Cals/Pitino.
Roy Williams would be a legend at any school......
I think you are way off here
ps. How about he wins one before we talka bout 2? ::)
+1000
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on August 06, 2013, 10:21:44 PM
Where did I say kind of? And in regards to being able to shape times and the like but instead sticking with the traditions that's where I draw the conservative comparison.
You're right, you didn't actually say "kind of" so I shouldn't have put it in quotes. You only kind of suggested it.
Quote from: bilsu on August 07, 2013, 01:10:14 PM
The first African American to play for Rupp was a 7'1" center who was the same year as Chones. After his sophomore season ended (they lost to MU in the NCAA consolation game after MU lost to Ohio St.)he went to jail for rape. I can still remember wondering if he was actuaally guilty or set up by Kentucky racists who did not want to have blacks on their team. I visited the Univerity of Kentucky about 8 years ago. Right on the edge of campus is a historical site where slaves were auctioned off. Kentucky does have an amazing basketball museum adjacent to Rupp Arena.
Talkin' 'bout Tom Payne, hey?
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on August 07, 2013, 11:55:46 AM
UCLA
UK
IU
UNC
Duke
KU
On the cusp
Louisville, UCONN
Should be interesting to see how long Indiana can stay in that group. Obviously the program has an incredible reputation and brand, but compared to the others on that list, they're starting to fall pretty far behind in the results category. So is UCLA to a certain extent. It's an imaginary group so it doesn't really mean much, but still interesting to compare.
UCONN will also be fun to follow now that Calhoun is gone and they are not in the Big East any longer.
ps. AZ is recruiting like one of the top 5 or 6 schools the last few years.......Miller looks like a great hire there.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on August 07, 2013, 09:58:09 AM
Ahh, now I see what you are saying. We interpreted the statement totally differently (and thus the comparison), but now I get where you are coming from. I am coming from a totally different angle, nothing to do with Al.
I took it as if Buzz (in today's impatient world) were to win only 8 games and 14 games in his first two years, he may not be around for a third year....or it was something to that effect from Brew MU82. I said, that's close to what TC did (6 and 10...actually worse than 8 and 14) at IU and he's still around. My point was that I agreed that people are less patient and that's why he demanded a longer term deal to allow him to get to years 4 and 5. So I wasn't comparing him to Al, I was comparing the situation that actually a guy at a big time program can have that kind of record in his first two years and still survive even in today's impatient world, but it requires an administration to bet in the long term with a lot of money and a long contract to protect the coach, show the commitment and keep the natives from jumping off a ledge.
I should have provided more context. Nobody expected Crean to win fast at Indiana, as he was taking over a complete mess.
Quote from: LAZER on August 07, 2013, 04:05:06 PM
Should be interesting to see how long Indiana can stay in that group. Obviously the program has an incredible reputation and brand, but compared to the others on that list, they're starting to fall pretty far behind in the results category. So is UCLA to a certain extent. It's an imaginary group so it doesn't really mean much, but still interesting to compare.
I think IU will be fine, even if their current coach flames out. The problem with IU since Knight retired is that no one else had proved they could bring them back to any sort of relevance. Mike Davis had the improbable run to the finals, but that was done almost entirely with Knight's players in his second year. Now that their current coach has shown you can get back to landing very good recruits in the state, can win conference titles, put guys in the pros, I think they will be able to get another coach (if need be) to continue things. It took someone far enough away from Knight to prove it could be done, and done without the NCAA slamming them for cheating. Now that it has been accomplished, they should be fine regardless of who the coach is because the specter of Knight is largely in the rear view mirror for most but the very fringe holdouts.
Quote from: hairyworthen on August 07, 2013, 09:05:55 AM
Wait, being able to recruit a 5 star big man isn't on your list?
You already know the answer to that---he can't.
Quote from: MU82 on August 07, 2013, 03:40:12 PM
You're right, you didn't actually say "kind of" so I shouldn't have put it in quotes. You only kind of suggested it.
Ok lemme put my train of thought like this. If you were to replace black with gay at any point from the start of BBall would you call all the coaches anti gays in sports or would you call them products of their environment when nobody thought there could be top gay athletes? That's how I'm looking at Rupp. It's not like he grew up in a city during the years where integration was becoming big. He was a product of his environment. And also at no time did I insinuate that he was "kind of a racist"
Goose and Lenny, you nailed it. There will never be another Al, but Buzz is pretty cool and I'm just loving the fact that this is starting to be a topic for discussion. I hope Buzz and MU do so GD well that us old farts get outnumbered as there are fewer and fewer around who remember Al - we'll still have those memories.
To throw this thread COMPLETELY off of the rails, can you imagine what the internal conflicts would have been like if Larry Williams and Fr. Pilarz had been in charge when Al was the coach? Dear Lord.
Al was an icon. Buzz is a really good coach with the potential to be a great coach.
Quote from: tower912 on August 08, 2013, 08:48:35 AM
To throw this thread COMPLETELY off of the rails, can you imagine what the internal conflicts would have been like if Larry Williams and Fr. Pilarz had been in charge when Al was the coach? Dear Lord.
Al was an icon. Buzz is a really good coach with the potential to be a great coach.
Would there be any? We keep hearing about all these conflicts, but we hear them from only Buzz's camp. Always two sides of the story and right now, Buzz is still at MU. Sounds overblown....or as if Hiroshima was shooting blanks.
Quote from: LAZER on August 07, 2013, 04:05:06 PM
Should be interesting to see how long Indiana can stay in that group. Obviously the program has an incredible reputation and brand, but compared to the others on that list, they're starting to fall pretty far behind in the results category. So is UCLA to a certain extent. It's an imaginary group so it doesn't really mean much, but still interesting to compare.
I actually think its harder to fall OUT of that group than gain entry into it. Indiana, for good or wrong reasons, will forever have that brand blue-blood name now. ESPN and sports media have really helped lock this in. Hell, before Roy Williams, Kansas didn't look so exceedingly above their rivals in the Big 12. But they became utterly dominant in the 90s and locked in that perception.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on August 08, 2013, 08:55:45 AM
Would there be any? We keep hearing about all these conflicts, but we hear them from only Buzz's camp. Always two sides of the story and right now, Buzz is still at MU. Sounds overblown....or as if Hiroshima was shooting blanks.
Al was the coach AND the AD. I assume that Fr Raynor was OK with our student athletes meeting the same eligibility requirements as Indiana or Wisconsin, but if he wasn't and wanted them altered Al would have gone ballistic.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on August 08, 2013, 09:36:48 AM
Al was the coach AND the AD. I assume that Fr Raynor was OK with our student athletes meeting the same eligibility requirements as Indiana or Wisconsin, but if he wasn't and wanted them altered Al would have gone ballistic.
Think Al would've stayed if he could have just been a coach not an AD as well back then?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on August 08, 2013, 09:36:48 AM
Al was the coach AND the AD. I assume that Fr Raynor was OK with our student athletes meeting the same eligibility requirements as Indiana or Wisconsin, but if he wasn't and wanted them altered Al would have gone ballistic.
Yup, but let's also not pretend the NCAA rules back then were like they are today, or the enforcement or the million eyeballs of investigators known as fans with axes to grind, etc. Lots of stuff happened back in the days at UCLA, SJU, IU, MU, etc.
Quote from: tower912 on August 08, 2013, 08:48:35 AM
To throw this thread COMPLETELY off of the rails, can you imagine what the internal conflicts would have been like if Larry Williams and Fr. Pilarz had been in charge when Al was the coach? Dear Lord.
Al was an icon. Buzz is a really good coach with the potential to be a great coach.
No disrespect, but if Al is an icon, why isn't his name never mentioned with the likes of J. Wooden, D. Smith, Coach K., etc? Hell, Knight only won one championship and his name is mentioned more than Al's when the topic of great coaches are reported. Please don't roast me; just a question for conversation.
Quote from: Sunbelt15 on August 08, 2013, 11:18:28 AM
No disrespect, but if Al is an icon, why isn't his name never mentioned with the likes of J. Wooden, D. Smith, Coach K., etc? Hell, Knight only won one championship and his name is mentioned more than Al's when the topic of great coaches are reported. Please don't roast me; just a question for conversation.
Knight won three championships...made five final fours (would have been six IMO but I think one of his better teams bowed out in the E8 after the Alan Henderson injury in '93)...and won 11 conference titles. Oh and a gold medal back in '84 during an era when that wasn't exactly a given.
Al is *our* icon. And there aren't many coaches who retired 35 years ago who are still mentioned nearly everytime that their team is broadcast nationally.
Terror
I do think it is amazing the air time Al has kept for all these years. To still be talked about as much after 35 years is unreal to me.
Quote from: Terror Skink on August 08, 2013, 11:20:18 AM
Knight won three championships...made five final fours (would have been six IMO but I think one of his better teams bowed out in the E8 after the Alan Henderson injury in '93)...and won 11 conference titles. Oh and a gold medal back in '84 during an era when that wasn't exactly a given.
Al is *our* icon. And there aren't many coaches who retired 35 years ago who are still mentioned nearly everytime that their team is broadcast nationally.
I stand corrected.
Quote from: Goose on August 08, 2013, 11:26:44 AM
Terror
I do think it is amazing the air time Al has kept for all these years. To still be talked about as much after 35 years is unreal to me.
Think about what would have happened if he hadn't retired **before the age of 50.**
He retired just before college basketball hit it big on ESPN, etc. If he would have stayed on, and things went right with the University, he probably gets to more Final Fours and pushes the program even more into the spotlight.
Quote from: Terror Skink on August 08, 2013, 11:20:18 AM
Knight won three championships...made five final fours (would have been six IMO but I think one of his better teams bowed out in the E8 after the Alan Henderson injury in '93)...and won 11 conference titles. Oh and a gold medal back in '84 during an era when that wasn't exactly a given.
Al is *our* icon. And there aren't many coaches who retired 35 years ago who are still mentioned nearly everytime that their team is broadcast nationally.
But is he mentioned because of the stadium we play? He changed our program like the greats changed theirs, but is never mentioned with the greats when coaching history is reported.
Too short a span. The greats coached for decades and won a lot of games for a long time. Al made his hay in 10 years and then walked away and stayed out of coaching. You can put those 10 years up against just about anybody not named Wooden, but it was still only 10 good years.
Quote from: Sunbelt15 on August 08, 2013, 11:33:38 AM
But is he mentioned because of the stadium we play? He changed our program like the greats changed theirs, but is never mentioned with the greats when coaching history is reported.
Tower hit on it. Al isn't a "coaching legend" because he was around for decades and won a bunch of national championships. He's a legend because he was like a shooting star - around for only a short period of time...but that period of time was spectacular. And not just because of the basketball being played. But the off the court stuff...the uniforms, etc.
Quote from: Terror Skink on August 08, 2013, 11:59:44 AM
Tower hit on it. Al isn't a "coaching legend" because he was around for decades and won a bunch of national championships. He's a legend because he was like a shooting star - around for only a short period of time...but that period of time was spectacular. And not just because of the basketball being played. But the off the court stuff...the uniforms, etc.
Wouldn't be surprised at all if this is the path Buzz takes....he speaks to the toll and grind it is to win at this level in this day and age. He's also quirky enough to do something unconventional like retire right as he hits his prime/possible legend status. Only thing that makes me doubt if he goes this route, would be if he could go from such a busy/hectic lifestyle to one so laid back in retirement - even if that meant taking a job as a TV commentator..
It'll just take a NC and some time... I love reading Al stories, but I didn't follow MU until after he had passed.
With all due respect to him and his legacy, Buzz winning a NC while I am actually following the team would put him ahead of Al as far as just I am concerned.
Here's the morbid part: Over time older alums will pass away and eventually I'll be the 60 year old dude talking about how the MU coach in 32 years might be able to catch Buzz
Ners
Guys like Al retiring at 47 and staying out of the game just does not happen. Funny thing is Al always was chasing the dollar and if he remained at MU anouther 5-10 years he would have made much more than he actually did by leaving. The sly one might have outsmarted himself.
Quote from: Sunbelt15 on August 08, 2013, 11:18:28 AM
No disrespect, but if Al is an icon, why isn't his name never mentioned with the likes of J. Wooden, D. Smith, Coach K., etc? Hell, Knight only won one championship and his name is mentioned more than Al's when the topic of great coaches are reported. Please don't roast me; just a question for conversation.
How 'bout legendary, then?
Quote from: dgies9156 on August 07, 2013, 12:39:36 PM
Are you kidding me? Adolph Rupp was a bigot, pure and simple. The first African American basketball player in the SEC was Perry Wallace. He played for Vanderbilt from 1966 to 1968 after being an incredible ballplayer at Nashville Pearl.
Rupp was the New York Yankees of the SEC. About the last team to integrate in the mid 1970s. Everybody else recruited African Americans in the SEC before Rupp did!
Coincidentally, in 1973, Kentucky was the
last state to approve the thirteenth amendment. After Alabama. After Mississippi. 108 years after the Civil War.
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on August 08, 2013, 09:39:24 AM
Think Al would've stayed if he could have just been a coach not an AD as well back then?
Al would have been fine with not being the AD, except that the extra job got him extra money that MU needed to pay to keep him. I believe that Hank was the assistant AD, as well, and probably did the majority of the AD's job.
I am ok with Al being "our" icon. Eff the media.
Coaches that have been around the game a while have more than enough respect for Al, Hank, and Rick. That's good enough for me.
Quote from: Terror Skink on August 08, 2013, 11:20:18 AM
Knight won three championships...made five final fours (would have been six IMO but I think one of his better teams bowed out in the E8 after the Alan Henderson injury in '93)...and won 11 conference titles. Oh and a gold medal back in '84 during an era when that wasn't exactly a given.
Al is *our* icon. And there aren't many coaches who retired 35 years ago who are still mentioned nearly everytime that their team is broadcast nationally.
Scott May's broken arm cost Knight another likely championship in 1975. IIRC it also cost him what would have been the first of back to back undefeated seasons.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on August 08, 2013, 07:25:30 PM
Scott May's broken arm cost Knight another likely championship in 1975. IIRC it also cost him what would have been the first of back to back undefeated seasons.
I believe UCLA had back to back undefeated season.
Quote from: bilsu on August 08, 2013, 07:28:25 PM
I believe UCLA had back to back undefeated season.
He means that they would have been undefeated in '75 to go along with their one in '76.
And Lennys I forgot about that as well.
That '93 team beat the Fab Five Michigan team that lost in the Final that year twice. And IMO was better than the North Carolina team that ended as champion.
Quote from: Terror Skink on August 08, 2013, 08:01:30 PM
He means that they would have been undefeated in '75 to go along with their one in '76.
And Lennys I forgot about that as well.
That '93 team beat the Fab Five Michigan team that lost in the Final that year twice. And IMO was better than the North Carolina team that ended as champion.
We all know that often times the best team doesn't win the tournament. If it did it would've been MU vs UCLA in the Championship game in 1971. So we can cut the who was better in a certain year because the fact is they weren't better when it counted. But seriously how awesome would that match up have been in 71?
You know, Buzz is doing pretty good as a coach, but to compare him to Al is just crazy. Different time/era. The game has changed quite a bit. Al came in when the program was not good. Buzz picked up with what O'Neil and then Crean had built. One could argue that it was more difficult to make the dance in Al's day, especially as an independent. They only took 16 teams back then and later went to 32 I believe. And the NIT was much more prestigious then, than now.
Of course, now it is more difficult to land the blue chippers than back in the day, because of so many more D1 teams. When Buzz wins the Big dance, gets a runner up, recruits studs with Al's regularity and has about a 6 to 8 year run like Al did, then we can say he is Al2. Not many compare to Al--he was one of a kind-always will be remembered for putting MU near the top.
Quote from: willie warrior on August 10, 2013, 06:46:42 AM
One could argue that it was more difficult to make the dance in Al's day, especially as an independent. They only took 16 teams back then and later went to 32 I believe.
Actually, through most of Al's career it was much harder for CONFERENCE teams to make the tournament, not independents. Until 1975, only conference champs qualified, leaving lots of great teams at home. In year two of opening up the tournament (1976), Indiana beat conference rival Michigan in the title game and the handwriting was on the wall - the advantage to being independent was gone, the NIT was dead and all teams would be moving towards the idea of joining a conference.
Also, the NCAA was taking 24 (not 16) teams when Al started at MU.
"IF" he stays and wins at a high level, he will be thought of in the same way as Al. "IF" he wins a national championship, makes it to a final four or two, and stays for a long period of time......he will become a legend. Buzz, in a very short period of time, has accomplished an awful lot. A different era, but "IF" he stays and becomes the all-time winningest coach by a big margin, he may go down in history as Marquette's greatest coach. Only time will tell. One thing I know for sure, I'm sure glad he is at Marquette!
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on August 09, 2013, 11:08:22 PM
We all know that often times the best team doesn't win the tournament. If it did it would've been MU vs UCLA in the Championship game in 1971. So we can cut the who was better in a certain year because the fact is they weren't better when it counted. But seriously how awesome would that match up have been in 71?
or 1972, if chones did not leave during the seson.
Think if UCLA had beaten NC state in 2x OT in 74 we would've won the title?
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on August 09, 2013, 11:08:22 PM
We all know that often times the best team doesn't win the tournament. If it did it would've been MU vs UCLA in the Championship game in 1971. So we can cut the who was better in a certain year because the fact is they weren't better when it counted. But seriously how awesome would that match up have been in 71?
That's bad logic to me. When MU wins the CHIP there will be no one that can tell me that another team is better. If they are better, why aren't they on the podium accepting the trophy. The game is about wins, not stats. Better teams find a way to win.
Quote from: Sunbelt15 on August 10, 2013, 12:23:41 PM
That's bad logic to me. When MU wins the CHIP there will be no one that can tell me that another team is better. If they are better, why aren't they on the podium accepting the trophy. The game is about wins, not stats. Better teams find a way to win.
In the pros sure but definitelly not in college. Do you really think that the KU team that lost to UNI wasn't as good? Or the mizzou team that lost to Norfolk? In college you can get hot when others are not and outwork them. In the pros the whole best of 7 prevents that.
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on August 10, 2013, 04:58:24 PM
In the pros sure but definitelly not in college. Do you really think that the KU team that lost to UNI wasn't as good? Or the mizzou team that lost to Norfolk? In college you can get hot when others are not and outwork them. In the pros the whole best of 7 prevents that.
And that's why we love the tourney
Quote from: ElDonBDon on August 10, 2013, 06:05:15 PM
And that's why we love the tourney
Totally agree, you have to show up or shut up as opposed to taking rests.
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on August 10, 2013, 10:04:08 PM
Totally agree, you have to show up or shut up as opposed to taking rests.
Don't you mean show up and make noise? If you're quiet, you're out.
Quote from: Sunbelt15 on August 11, 2013, 07:52:01 AM
Don't you mean show up and make noise? If you're quiet, you're out.
Meant to say put up or shut up.