What would it take for Buzz to reach Al

[Aughnanure]

Are you kidding? We aren't talking about what it would take for Buzz to be regarded as a good or successful coach. We are talking about him being on the same level as Al McGuire, who was one of the greats of his generation. Al is the be-all end-all of Marquette coaching and the only MU coach that would get any legitimate consideration to be on the all-time college basketball Mount Rushmore. For Buzz to get to that level, which is the discussion at hand, I feel he needs to get Marquette to the point where we are regarded as one of the 5-10 best programs in the country for an extended period of time.

When Al was here, the list was UCLA, Marquette, Kentucky, and a small handful of other schools. For Buzz to match that, he needs us to be near the top of that small handful, not in the "also receiving votes" category.

Sorry, but Al McGuire did not make us into a blue-blood considered program the way people speak of Kentucky, Kansas, UCLA, UNC, Indiana and Duke (justified or unjustified). Maybe it was just timing (ya know, before ESPN and running during the UCLA power era), but for whatever reason Marquette's name never became what Indiana's and Duke's are. We didn't distinguish ourselves enough. To be brutally honest, not enough championships or Final Fours. If he would have, the debacles in the 80s and 90s wouldn't have happened.

For Buzz to reach the level where we are talked about as equals to Kansas and UNC (especially now considering the current ESPN/Sports climate that only pays attention to the big names) would mean he has surpassed Al.

[MU82]

Al's first year, MU went 8-18, the next year they were 14-12, then as bislu points out Al won 20+ games 11 straight years.

Had Buzz won 8 games his first year and 14 his second, there very well might not have been a third. Or at least, the impatience from fans like us would have made many of us declare that there shouldn't have been a third.

Look up Coach K's early record. Or Wooden's. Or many other great, successful coaches.

That's one of the big things that has changed. There is zero patience now. Gotta win today!

[🏀]

First off it's known he was a racist, that movie though blew that wayyy out of proportion.  I could just call him more conservative in his views with trying to stick with tradition rather than something new (Of course being at Marquette/on this board I'd get killed for associating conservatism with that).  Next, tell me what any of those views have to do with his coaching?  The fact is he was a damn good coach and he had success in tremendously different eras of basketball which earned my respect purely from a basketball standpoint. 

Way out of proportion? Come on. Even Al McGuire refused a public appearance with Rupp due to his racism.

I don't see how you are missing the racist views with his coaching.

Refuses to roster a black player until he gets trumped by Texas Western. Realizes he cannot coach and win without black players. Recruits black players and begins to win.

I guess you could see that as progressive, but whatever. The guy doesn't reserve respect regardless of coaching talent.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Had Buzz won 8 games his first year and 14 his second, there very well might not have been a third. Or at least, the impatience from fans like us would have made many of us declare that there shouldn't have been a third.

Look up Coach K's early record. Or Wooden's. Or many other great, successful coaches.

That's one of the big things that has changed. There is zero patience now. Gotta win today!

Sounds like TC's record at IU first 3 years.   And yes, I agree with you....that's why he demanded a huge contract and years to force that patience because so little of it does exist today.

[Goose]

Aughnanure

Are you kidding me? MU was high blueblood during the Al era. When you do not leave the top ten for a decade, an off the charts well known coach and AA's you are in the blueblood team photo. That is why the old timers on here hold current status of program to different standards. We were a national power and a high profile national power.

[brewcity77]

Sorry, but Al McGuire did not make us into a blue-blood considered program the way people speak of Kentucky, Kansas, UCLA, UNC, Indiana and Duke (justified or unjustified). Maybe it was just timing (ya know, before ESPN and running during the UCLA power era), but for whatever reason Marquette's name never became what Indiana's and Duke's are. We didn't distinguish ourselves enough. To be brutally honest, not enough championships or Final Fours. If he would have, the debacles in the 80s and 90s wouldn't have happened.

That doesn't mean that Marquette fans don't regard ourselves in that way. Just this past week I have seen discussions talking about how we were the #2 team to UCLA and that arguments between us and Kentucky shouldn't even be that close because Rupp couldn't win until after Al retired.

Changing standards and the ESPN culture you describes means that for Buzz to be regarded as Al's equal, especially by fans of the Al era, he must surpass him. And my guess is for some, even that may not be enough.

[4everwarriors]

Aughnanure

Are you kidding me? MU was high blueblood during the Al era. When you do not leave the top ten for a decade, an off the charts well known coach and AA's you are in the blueblood team photo. That is why the old timers on here hold current status of program to different standards. We were a national power and a high profile national power.

Eloquent, simply eloquent.

[Aughnanure]

Aughnanure

Are you kidding me? MU was high blueblood during the Al era. When you do not leave the top ten for a decade, an off the charts well known coach and AA's you are in the blueblood team photo. That is why the old timers on here hold current status of program to different standards. We were a national power and a high profile national power.

Blue bloods stay blue bloods. There are only 5.

[Dawson Rental]

That doesn't mean that Marquette fans don't regard ourselves in that way. Just this past week I have seen discussions talking about how we were the #2 team to UCLA and that arguments between us and Kentucky shouldn't even be that close because Rupp couldn't win until after Al retired.

Changing standards and the ESPN culture you describes means that for Buzz to be regarded as Al's equal, especially by fans of the Al era, he must surpass him. And my guess is for some, even that may not be enough.

If Buzz merely equaled Al, the acclaim that he would receive would be more than sufficient to totally drown out anything from the "I remember Al" crowd.  It's just not happening.  Which is not to say that Buzz is in any way underachieving.  I have always been one of those in disagreement with Sultan/Terror's position that MU could hire another coach after Buzz who could continue the current success without skipping a beat.

[Goose]

LittleMurs
Agreed on your post. I am a remember Al guy, but want Buzz to trump him big time. Different time and different expectations. Buzz is closest anyone has come to making me want to put away my Al shrine. He might never be Al and I am fine with that. You are correct that losing Buzz would be major negative to program.

[ChicosBailBonds]

If Buzz merely equaled Al, the acclaim that he would receive would be more than sufficient to totally drown out anything from the "I remember Al" crowd.  It's just not happening.  Which is not to say that Buzz is in any way underachieving.  I have always been one of those in disagreement with Sultan/Terror's position that MU could hire another coach after Buzz who could continue the current success without skipping a beat.

Do you at least recognize that it is possible?  It's been done many places before.  Many resources at MU.  Doesn't mean they will get it right, but it seems like some of you think it is impossible. 

[Eldon]

Blue bloods stay blue bloods. There are only 5.

Kentucky, Duke, UNC, UCLA, IU, Kansas.  Who you leaving off?

[Aughnanure]

That doesn't mean that Marquette fans don't regard ourselves in that way. Just this past week I have seen discussions talking about how we were the #2 team to UCLA and that arguments between us and Kentucky shouldn't even be that close because Rupp couldn't win until after Al retired.

Changing standards and the ESPN culture you describes means that for Buzz to be regarded as Al's equal, especially by fans of the Al era, he must surpass him. And my guess is for some, even that may not be enough.

+1. Buzz needs to surpass Al to even be considered equal to what people remember. Al didnt have to compete against the ESPN attention the big boys get and if Buzz can not only compete but win that battle he will have surpassed him.

But this is all getting so far ahead of ourselves, feel we're jinxing ourselves.

[Aughnanure]

Kentucky, Duke, UNC, UCLA, IU, Kansas.  Who you leaving off?

Duke. I feel they're kind of added by people who love the UNC rivalry. If they're on it, then why not Michigan St. Not a big deal either way, I'll accept it if pushed.

[Galway Eagle]

Way out of proportion? Come on. Even Al McGuire refused a public appearance with Rupp due to his racism.

I don't see how you are missing the racist views with his coaching.

Refuses to roster a black player until he gets trumped by Texas Western. Realizes he cannot coach and win without black players. Recruits black players and begins to win.

I guess you could see that as progressive, but whatever. The guy doesn't reserve respect regardless of coaching talent.

http://www.620wtmj.com/news/local/137426413.html?lc=Smart

I implore you to read this article.  George Thompson himself says nobody wanted to be the first to join a team in an area that hated blacks.  Not saying that Rupp was the most accepting person but he tried and nobody wanted to join. 

[Lennys Tap]

Duke. I feel they're kind of added by people who love the UNC rivalry. If they're on it, then why not Michigan St. Not a big deal either way, I'll accept it if pushed.

Well, if that means you're saying we can be on Duke's non blue blood level sign me up.

[Lennys Tap]

Sounds like TC's record at IU first 3 years. 

Not even close.

[NersEllenson]

My only thought is that the fact this topic actually was posted and thought of, and generated as much discussion as it has - is quite the testament to the job Buzz has done.  For it to even be fathomable that he could approach Al's accomplishments is quite exciting.  In looking at the talent he was on the roster and has coming in - I think it is safe to say, we are trending toward being a consistent Top 8-15 team/program - and that should be good enough to see Final Four, National Championship territory...

[brewcity77]

Duke. I feel they're kind of added by people who love the UNC rivalry. If they're on it, then why not Michigan St. Not a big deal either way, I'll accept it if pushed.

A lot of people try to discount how good Duke was before Coach K. They were already one of the better programs in the country before him with the exception of one bad hire that didn't last long. If they don't belong on the list, neither does UCLA.

[MU82]

First off it's known he was a racist, that movie though blew that wayyy out of proportion.  I could just call him more conservative in his views with trying to stick with tradition rather than something new (Of course being at Marquette/on this board I'd get killed for associating conservatism with that).  Next, tell me what any of those views have to do with his coaching?  The fact is he was a damn good coach and he had success in tremendously different eras of basketball which earned my respect purely from a basketball standpoint. 

There's no such thing as "kind of" a racist. Rupp was a horrible human being. He was shaped by his times but he also helped shape his times. He had the power and the bully pulpit to be more than a basketball coach. He chose to keep blacks "in their place." A miserable cur is what he was.

[Atticus]

A lot of people try to discount how good Duke was before Coach K. They were already one of the better programs in the country before him with the exception of one bad hire that didn't last long. If they don't belong on the list, neither does UCLA.

I agree.

Quite frankly, the greatest accomplishment in terms of building a program up from scratch in the modern era belongs to Jim Calhoun. And its not even close. He took an after-thought program and turned it into a powerhouse...winning 3 titles and sending a ton of kids to the NBA in the lottery.

Coach K didnt do that. Duke was the runner-up in '78 and K signed on in '80. Boeheim didnt do that (Syracuse went to the Final 4 in 1975...and Dave Bing (one of the greatest college players ever) was pre-Boeheim. Boeheim took over in 1977....

[Galway Eagle]

Duke. I feel they're kind of added by people who love the UNC rivalry. If they're on it, then why not Michigan St. Not a big deal either way, I'll accept it if pushed.

Yeah 6 runner ups 4 championships 15 final fours I'd say is blue blood

[Galway Eagle]

There's no such thing as "kind of" a racist. Rupp was a horrible human being. He was shaped by his times but he also helped shape his times. He had the power and the bully pulpit to be more than a basketball coach. He chose to keep blacks "in their place." A miserable cur is what he was.

Where did I say kind of? And in regards to being able to shape times and the like but instead sticking with the traditions that's where I draw the conservative comparison. 

[WarriorFan]

How many schools can brag of having had 2 absolutely legendary coaches?  There was Adolph Rupp and ???,  John Wooden followed by a parade of wooden Jons, Dean Smith followed by a bunch of Amateurs, Bobby Knight followed by a cheater and a guy who will never be a legend.  If Buzz consistently keeps MU in the tournament, in the top 20, in the National Media and in the NBA, he has a chance at being MU's second legend.  If he wins a couple championships, he cements it.  Let's hope he sticks around to do it.

[downtown85]

Buzz has to do three things to reach Al status.

1. Make Marquette part of the national basketball consciousness. We don't have to be top-5 every year, but we need mentioned alongside Michigan State, Kansas, Kentucky, North Carolina, and Duke as an elite program.
2. Win a national championship. All the other accolades, the Final Fours and #1 rankings, would be great, but ultimately just window dressing. He needs to give Marquette that one moment where we are back on top again.
3. Retire at Marquette. He can't go on the coach somewhere else, whether with more success or less, and still be regarded in the same way as someone like Al.

4. Become a very colorful and sought after basketball commentary guy for televised games on a major sports network.