MUScoop

Long-time visitor, infrequent poster to the MU Scoop Board.

If the Big East expands, I've seen names like Dayton, Richmond, St. Louis, VCU, etc. I may have missed something, but how about Davidson? Private school. Faith-oriented. No football. High academics. Member of the Southern Conference. Relatively small arena of 5,223 seats, but draws much better than DePaul. NCAA (11) and NIT (5) appearances. Great coach. Solid program.

Your thoughts?

 Let's just get the league we have under our belt before we acquire more mid-majors.

Yeah--maybe Vander can shake their hands when they get off the plane.

Let's just see Davidson grow in the A-10 first.

Quote from: BSN on July 11, 2013, 08:13:27 PM
Long-time visitor, infrequent poster to the MU Scoop Board.

If the Big East expands, I've seen names like Dayton, Richmond, St. Louis, VCU, etc. I may have missed something, but how about Davidson? Private school. Faith-oriented. No football. High academics. Member of the Southern Conference. Relatively small arena of 5,223 seats, but draws much better than DePaul. NCAA (11) and NIT (5) appearances. Great coach. Solid program.

Your thoughts?

What you missed is their lack of attractiveness to Fox Sports 1, the guys paying most of the bills.

Quote from: BSN on July 11, 2013, 08:13:27 PM
Long-time visitor, infrequent poster to the MU Scoop Board.
how about Davidson?

David who?

Davidson has been a quality mid-major for some time.   However, I don't see this conference expanding for several years.   Let us see what the landscape looks like then. 

Quote from: BSN on July 11, 2013, 08:13:27 PM
Long-time visitor, infrequent poster to the MU Scoop Board.

If the Big East expands, I've seen names like Dayton, Richmond, St. Louis, VCU, etc. I may have missed something, but how about Davidson? Private school. Faith-oriented. No football. High academics. Member of the Southern Conference. Relatively small arena of 5,223 seats, but draws much better than DePaul. NCAA (11) and NIT (5) appearances. Great coach. Solid program.

Your thoughts?

They wouldn't have 11 NCAA Tournament appearances without playing in a weak conference where they got the autobid each time.

Quote from: tower912 on July 11, 2013, 08:50:10 PM
Davidson has been a quality mid-major for some time.   However, I don't see this conference expanding for several years.   Let us see what the landscape looks like then. 

The conference will get very interested in expanding when they only get 3 NCAA bids.

Quote from: bilsu on July 11, 2013, 09:28:33 PM
The conference will get very interested in expanding when they only get 3 NCAA bids.

Really? Diluting the quality of the conference, but boosting W-L records would be a benefit?

While geography concerns hasn't been a problem for conference reformant. A case could be made that if Davidson was added, then they would be a bigges misfit than Creighton.

Davidson has a football team.  I was on a plane ride with them last year.  Nice guys.

No. Don't get me wrong, I like Davidson's program, but they are not Big East material. People already think Creighton is a stretch, and they have a much richer history and overwhelmingly better attendance than the Wildcats. Maybe if they take off in the A10 and then build a new stadium, but I doubt it.

BEast will expand to 12 teams in the next two years. My hope is VCU and Gonzaga. My guess is VCU and Saint Louis.

If it wasn't for Steph Curry, Davidson would not even be brought up in a possible BE expansion conversation.

ideal exspansion to 16:

byu and notre dame

gonzaga and vcu

slu  and richmond

this is my ideal, because unnatural carnal knowledge dayton. we shall see how it shakes out, but probably worse than this.

Quote from: 77ncaachamps on July 12, 2013, 12:54:35 AM
If it wasn't for Steph Curry, Davidson would not even be brought up in a possible BE expansion conversation.

Finally some REAL talk! Totally agree.

No need for more A-10 schools. Ten teams allow for true home and away scheduling, something not seen in the Big East in almost 20 years.

Don't dilute the product.

Quote from: DFW HOYA on July 12, 2013, 07:13:29 AM
No need for more A-10 schools. Ten teams allow for true home and away scheduling, something not seen in the Big East in almost 20 years.

Don't dilute the product.

"True home and away scheduling" is something that is a driver in fans eyes but not conference members eyes.  I think the BE will expand, and I would bet on SLU and Richmond, but it may be a longer period of time than initially thought.

Listen, I'm all for adding anyone to the conference that meets the following criteria:

1) Private
2) Significant basketball history/tradition & committed to success
3) Has upset UW in a tournament game
3.5) Someone MU has beaten in a tournament game
4) Not located in a claimed "Home of the Wright Brothers"

Ooooooohhhh.... so close, Davidson.  

(For what it's worth, it's not that we don't like North Carolina... we just don't like that other place where Wilbur and Orville lived.)

Quote from: boyonthedock on July 12, 2013, 05:35:06 AM
ideal exspansion to 16:

byu Duke and notre dame

gonzaga Kentucky and vcu

slu  and richmond

this is my ideal, because unnatural carnal knowledge dayton. we shall see how it shakes out, but probably worse than this.

FIFY

Quote from: boyonthedock on July 12, 2013, 05:35:06 AM
ideal exspansion to 16:

byu and notre dame

gonzaga and vcu

slu  and richmond

this is my ideal, because unnatural carnal knowledge dayton. we shall see how it shakes out, but probably worse than this.

I would love BYU but they won't be independent in football for long.

I would love Notre Dame but we have to face it...ACC is stronger than us and probably always will be

Gonzaga, VCU, SLU, totally agree.

Richmond is a no if we get VCU. We don't need two schools in the same city.

I think in the short term, we will only expand by two. Most likely VCU and SLU (but hoping for Gonzaga).

Eventually we may go to 14 or even 16....but I don't see that in the short term. There's just so few basketball only schools that are worth adding.

Quote from: Analytical Eagle on July 12, 2013, 03:28:49 PM
I would love BYU but they won't be independent in football for long.

I would love Notre Dame but we have to face it...ACC is stronger than us and probably always will be

Gonzaga, VCU, SLU, totally agree.

Richmond is a no if we get VCU. We don't need two schools in the same city.

I think in the short term, we will only expand by two. Most likely VCU and SLU (but hoping for Gonzaga).

Eventually we may go to 14 or even 16....but I don't see that in the short term. There's just so few basketball only schools that are worth adding.

Well, yeah, that was just my pie in the sky.

I thought Davidson might be a good potential addition, but more research shows they are one of the smallest D1 schools, only have an undergrad population of like 1500, that's REALLY small and don't really have many graduate students.

I still prefer 10, but if you had to go to 12...

Let UConn and Temple park their football in the MAC and play all other sports in the Big East. A step up from Dayton or Davidson.

Quote from: DFW HOYA on July 12, 2013, 07:15:47 PM
I still prefer 10, but if you had to go to 12...

Let UConn and Temple park their football in the MAC and play all other sports in the Big East. A step up from Dayton or Davidson.

I seriously doubt that Villanova would allow Temple into the Big East.

ND for everything but football is first priority, then when it works, Uconn & Temple on same deal, at which point the league will be very attractive for Gonzaga.  Slide in SLU and its a well aligned basketball focused conference.

Quote from: LittleMurs on July 12, 2013, 07:55:18 PM
I seriously doubt that Villanova would allow Temple into the Big East.

They lost Round Two in the old conference construct when Temple was readmitted. We have 2 schools in the Tri-State area so Philly wouldn't be unique in that regard.

Quote from: DFW HOYA on July 12, 2013, 07:15:47 PM
I still prefer 10, but if you had to go to 12...

Let UConn and Temple park their football in the MAC and play all other sports in the Big East. A step up from Dayton or Davidson.

Yeah...no.  Dayton is better than that option and that option is crap.

Quote from: Warriors10 on July 12, 2013, 11:35:18 PM
Yeah...no.  Dayton is better than that option and that option is crap.

Dayton is a terrible option. They were never actually considered. Weak basketball, below average fanbase, and worst of all, don't bring in a new media market.

Temple will not happen, but would love to see UCONN drop football. It is not a profitable sport for them. They would be so much better off if they dropped football and reallocated all that money to a sport they are actually good at.

VCU and Gonzaga, those are the two we need to aim for.

Gonzaga does not make sense, logistically.  Dayton administration = Depaul administration.    Their fanbase, however, is very good. 

Seriously guys, Dayton?

http://www.youtube.com/v/ePeaPalZu-0

Quote from: DFW HOYA on July 12, 2013, 07:15:47 PM
I still prefer 10, but if you had to go to 12...

Let UConn and Temple park their football in the MAC and play all other sports in the Big East. A step up from Dayton or Davidson.

Quote from: jtbh6b1 on July 12, 2013, 10:41:29 PM
ND for everything but football is first priority, then when it works, Uconn & Temple on same deal, at which point the league will be very attractive for Gonzaga.  Slide in SLU and its a well aligned basketball focused conference.

No, no, no.  Absolutely no split members.  Basketball schools.

The only exception is Notre Dame, but they aren't going anywhere.  They are where they want to be.

Quote from: PTM on July 13, 2013, 08:43:36 AM
Seriously guys, Dayton?

http://www.youtube.com/v/ePeaPalZu-0

Do we have any IP lawyer here who can answer whether Dayton had to approve that use of their name/logo for that commercial?  I would think that they would have had to approve that.  What the hell were they thinking?  That's just embarrassing.  Funny, but embarrassing.

Quote from: StillAWarrior on July 13, 2013, 12:03:27 PM

Do we have any IP lawyer here who can answer whether Dayton had to approve that use of their name/logo for that commercial?  I would think that they would have had to approve that.  What the hell were they thinking?  That's just embarrassing.  Funny, but embarrassing.

That wasn't part of the original commercial. It was a joke.

I'd take Belmont and davidson over Dayton.  They at least are known as top midmajor programs because of their consistent success as of late while Dayton is holding onto their success from ages and ages ago

Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on July 13, 2013, 05:29:31 PM
I'd take Belmont and davidson over Dayton.  They at least are known as top midmajor programs because of their consistent success as of late while Dayton is holding onto their success from ages and ages ago

And that's why you had to learn to box at at an early age in order to survive.

Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on July 13, 2013, 05:29:31 PM
I'd take Belmont and davidson over Dayton.  They at least are known as top midmajor programs because of their consistent success as of late while Dayton is holding onto their success from ages and ages ago

Oh Jesus...

Look, I am no fan of Dayton, but they are a much better program than Davidson or Belmont.

Quote from: keefe on July 12, 2013, 10:54:27 PM
They lost Round Two in the old conference construct when Temple was readmitted. We have 2 schools in the Tri-State area so Philly wouldn't be unique in that regard.

"This is arguably the greatest day in the history of Temple Athletics," athletic director Bill Bradshaw said in a statement. "We look forward to a long and mutually beneficial relationship with the Big East and its member schools."
March 7, 2012

Just as he did at DePaul, Bill Bradshaw has a lack of a knack for seeing the future.  I really, really want to trade stocks against this guy.

Quote from: bilsu on July 11, 2013, 09:28:33 PM
The conference will get very interested in expanding when they only get 3 NCAA bids.

It most certainly will be interesting to see how many bids the Big East gets this year. I think 3 sounds a little short though. Marquette, Georgetown, Creighton, Villanova, Providence, Butler and Xavier all have legitimate chances at going to the tournament. Obviously these teams will have to perform well enough in non conference as the Big East is inevitably going to beat itself up. 7 teams won't make it, but at least 5 should next year, which would be a great start for the league. The landscape will definitely be different, but we're talking about a conference that will be 3rd to 5th best most seasons. The talking heads that say the Big East will be equivalent with the Mountain West going forward are ESPN clowns. The MWC was a very, very good conference last season, and if they keep that up, that may be the case. But I am not counting on that.

This coming season will interesting indeed.

Quote from: JamilJaeJamailJrJuan on July 14, 2013, 01:42:28 PM
It most certainly will be interesting to see how many bids the Big East gets this year. I think 3 sounds a little short though. Marquette, Georgetown, Creighton, Villanova, Providence, Butler and Xavier St. John's all have legitimate chances at going to the tournament.  

Agree with everything but the little bit that I changed

Quote from: Terror Skink on July 13, 2013, 06:16:18 PM

Oh Jesus...

Look, I am no fan of Dayton, but they are a much better program than Davidson or Belmont.

Since I've been alive (22yrs) Davidson has had 7 NCAA tournament appearances including an Elite 8, Belmont has had 6 (all since 2006) Dayton has had 5 and hasn't gotten out of the first round.  For that matter since 2000 Davidson has had 6 Dayton 4 Belmont still 6.  I maintain Dayton is holding onto ancient success and that a Marquette vs Davidson game would bring more TV viewers thanks to their recent success than a Marquette Dayton game. 

Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on July 14, 2013, 09:46:26 PM
Since I've been alive (22yrs) Davidson has had 7 NCAA tournament appearances including an Elite 8, Belmont has had 6 (all since 2006) Dayton has had 5 and hasn't gotten out of the first round.  For that matter since 2000 Davidson has had 6 Dayton 4 Belmont still 6.  I maintain Dayton is holding onto ancient success and that a Marquette vs Davidson game would bring more TV viewers thanks to their recent success than a Marquette Dayton game. 

Davidson and Belmont get in the tournament mostly due to being automatic qualifiers.  That doesn't mean they are better programs.  They are smaller schools that have niche followings. 

Also, let's see how Davidson does in a couple of years now that they are full A10 members.  I think they will struggle.

Quote from: Terror Skink on July 14, 2013, 09:59:00 PM
Also, let's see how Davidson does in a couple of years now that they are full A10 members.  I think they will struggle.

You think the team that nearly knocked us out of the tournament last year is going to struggle in a weaker league?

Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on July 14, 2013, 11:09:43 PM
You think the team that nearly knocked us out of the tournament last year is going to struggle in a weaker league?

I like Davidson too, but they will. The Atlantic 10 is a much stronger league then the Southern conference. Davidson was literally the only team with an RPI above 200 in their conference last season. Couple that with the fact that most of Davidson's scoring graduated this year...it will be several years before we see the Wildcats back in the tournament.

Davidson? Belmont? Dayton?

I'd rather stay at 10, thank you.

Quote from: Analytical Eagle on July 14, 2013, 11:25:46 PM
I like Davidson too, but they will. The Atlantic 10 is a much stronger league then the Southern conference. Davidson was literally the only team with an RPI above 200 in their conference last season. Couple that with the fact that most of Davidson's scoring graduated this year...it will be several years before we see the Wildcats back in the tournament.

I see I didn't know the age of their players.  But I think they have a damn good coach I give it 2 or 3 years before they're back.  Particularly because the A10 lost basically all it's flagship programs. 

Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on July 14, 2013, 11:33:29 PM
I see I didn't know the age of their players.  But I think they have a damn good coach I give it 2 or 3 years before they're back.  Particularly because the A10 lost basically all it's flagship programs. 

St. Louis, St. Joseph's and VCU beg to differ.

Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on July 14, 2013, 11:09:43 PM
You think the team that nearly knocked us out of the tournament last year is going to struggle in a weaker league?

That was the worst MU team I'd seen show up all year. We deserved to lose that game, honestly.

Davidson at first glance might be attractive, private academic institution with very good basketball success in a big city (Charlotte).  If you look closer though, they are like an undergrad enrollment of like 1000 (one of the smallest in D1) and are mainly undergrad.  Doesn't speak well for a large alumni base...

Quote from: Analytical Eagle on July 14, 2013, 11:25:46 PM
I like Davidson too, but they will. The Atlantic 10 is a much stronger league then the Southern conference. Davidson was literally the only team with an RPI above 200 in their conference last season. Couple that with the fact that most of Davidson's scoring graduated this year...it will be several years before we see the Wildcats back in the tournament.

Well stated.  Ditto with Belmont.  Believe me, I am no fan of Dayton either...would rather take none of them.

Quote from: Skatastrophy on July 13, 2013, 01:43:17 PM
That wasn't part of the original commercial. It was a joke.

Doh!  Hook.  Line.  Sinker.  I'm embarrassed.  I'm not sure I ever saw the commercial without that in it.

So stay where we are.     I am pretty sure that during the process all of these names were tossed out there.     All of them had weaknesses, be it logistics, being a public university, lack of tourney success during the last 20 years.....whatever.   IMO, sit tight for a few years, re-build the Big East brand name and product and see what schools have built themselves to a level that it makes sense to invite them.   The proper fit will reveal itself.  

Quote from: tower912 on July 13, 2013, 03:03:05 AM
Gonzaga does not make sense, logistically.  Dayton administration = Depaul administration.    Their fanbase, however, is very good. 

I call BS on this. Gonzaga can work, and work well. Everywhere is 700+ miles for Gonzaga regardless. The logistics are their problem, not the other schools who just have to add one west coast trip a year.

Quote from: Aughnanure on July 15, 2013, 09:30:16 AM
I call BS on this. Gonzaga can work, and work well. Everywhere is 700+ miles for Gonzaga regardless. The logistics are their problem, not the other schools who just have to add one west coast trip a year.

For basketball...not to mention the other sports.

Quote from: Aughnanure on July 15, 2013, 09:30:16 AM
I call BS on this. Gonzaga can work, and work well. Everywhere is 700+ miles for Gonzaga regardless. The logistics are their problem, not the other schools who just have to add one west coast trip a year.

Call BS all you want.   Having all of the non-revenue producing teams going out there once a year is a budget breaker.    From Gonzaga's standpoint, having your basketball team spend half of the season 2-3 timezones away is far from ideal.   If the league fathers had to be convinced to allow Creighton in, flying DC to Spokane in February couldn't have been popular.    Because on paper, if distance is removed the equation, then Gonzaga is nearly automatic.   The fact that they weren't in the first 10 speaks volumes. 

Quote from: Terror Skink on July 15, 2013, 09:33:17 AM
For basketball...not to mention the other sports.

Cause the soccer, volleyball, tennis, track, etc programs don't already travel outside the midwest? Tennis is already going to Vegas this year. Lacrosse went to Colorado and Jacksonville. Volleyball to Fort Myers.

Quote from: tower912 on July 15, 2013, 09:40:09 AM
Call BS all you want.   Having all of the non-revenue producing teams going out there once a year is a budget breaker.    From Gonzaga's standpoint, having your basketball team spend half of the season 2-3 timezones away is far from ideal.   If the league fathers had to be convinced to allow Creighton in, flying DC to Spokane in February couldn't have been popular.    Because on paper, if distance is removed the equation, then Gonzaga is nearly automatic.   The fact that they weren't in the first 10 speaks volumes. 

The league "fathers" had to be convinced about every school. And yes, it's mainly Gonzaga's mainly problem (lack of close games, timezone issues for fans, etc). But can we stop acting like Spokane is in freaking England.

Quote from: Aughnanure on July 15, 2013, 09:42:06 AM
Cause the soccer, volleyball, tennis, track, etc programs don't already travel outside the midwest? Tennis is already going to Vegas this year. Lacrosse went to Colorado and Jacksonville. Volleyball to Fort Myers.

Volleyball is going to Fort Myers to get three games in two days.  Tennis travels everywhere for multiple matches.  Lacrosse was going everywhere as a new program.

That doesn't mean they should simply add a trip to Spokane in conference.

Quote from: Aughnanure on July 15, 2013, 09:45:44 AM
The league "fathers" had to be convinced about every school. And yes, it's mainly Gonzaga's mainly problem (lack of close games, timezone issues for fans, etc). But can we stop acting like Spokane is in freaking England.

+1 Gonzaga, can, and will, eventually happen.

It wasn't in the first 10 because there's a lot that logistically needs to go into it to get it figured out. This league was already gonna be up against the clock to get settled by the fall sports season. It added members that were easy to schedule and work out travel plans for.

They can take their time in getting to 12. I fully expect VCU and the Zags will have those 2 spots when all is said and done. I'd bet they do it before the expiration of the current FS1 TV deal to add leverage for the next deal.

The money part is a non-issue. Gonzaga's cut of TV revenue would more than cover for the extended travel, compared to their current TV revenue. Remember, they are already traveling to places like San Diego, Loyola Marymount, BYU, Pepperdine etc. None of their WCC conference games are driving distance, they are taking planes regardless.

And the new TV deal covers the costs of travel for everyone else in the conference as well, compared to the revenue in the old Big East deal with ESPN. They could even add the costs as leverage in the next TV deal.

Quote from: Terror Skink on July 15, 2013, 09:52:47 AM
Volleyball is going to Fort Myers to get three games in two days.  Tennis travels everywhere for multiple matches.  Lacrosse was going everywhere as a new program.

That doesn't mean they should simply add a trip to Spokane in conference.

No, but it means adding a trip to Spokane isn't the budget killer many here act like it is.

Quote from: Bleuteaux on July 15, 2013, 09:54:09 AM
+1 Gonzaga, can, and will, eventually happen.

It wasn't in the first 10 because there's a lot that logistically needs to go into it to get it figured out. This league was already gonna be up against the clock to get settled by the fall sports season. It added members that were easy to schedule and work out travel plans for.

They can take their time in getting to 12. I fully expect VCU and the Zags will have those 2 spots when all is said and done. I'd bet they do it before the expiration of the current FS1 TV deal to add leverage for the next deal.

The money part is a non-issue. Gonzaga's cut of TV revenue would more than cover for the extended travel, compared to their current TV revenue. Remember, they are already traveling to places like San Diego, Loyola Marymount, BYU, Pepperdine etc. None of their WCC conference games are driving distance, they are taking planes regardless.

And the new TV deal covers the costs of travel for everyone else in the conference as well, compared to the revenue in the old Big East deal with ESPN. They could even add the costs as leverage in the next TV deal.

Agreed for the most part, but VCU isn't getting in over SLU.

Quote from: Bleuteaux on July 15, 2013, 09:54:09 AM

The money part is a non-issue. Gonzaga's cut of TV revenue would more than cover for the extended travel, compared to their current TV revenue. Remember, they are already traveling to places like San Diego, Loyola Marymount, BYU, Pepperdine etc. None of their conference games are driving distance, they are taking planes regardless.

Their furthest rival in the WCC is San Diego...that is closer than their nearest rival would be in the new BE.  (Creighton).  Every other trip for them would be 1,500+ miles.

I question whether or not Gonzaga would do this simply because of what it does to their student athletes.

Quote from: Terror Skink on July 15, 2013, 09:58:41 AM

Their furthest rival in the WCC is San Diego...that is closer than their nearest rival would be in the new BE.  (Creighton).  Every other trip for them would be 1,500+ miles.

I question whether or not Gonzaga would do this simply because of what it does to their student athletes.

Well Spokane to Milwaukee is 1459 miles (for reference, Milw to Tampa was 1100), but I get it. And yes, I agree with you on that it basically comes down to if Gonzaga wants to/thinks its worth it. The other Big East schools shouldn't be blocking Gonzaga because it makes their student-athletes sit down for an extra hour or hour 1/2 once a year.

DC to London,  3678 miles.   DC to Spokane, 2094 miles.   Good call.   But from Gonzaga's perspective, is it really worth it to have a 3 game road trip over 8 days all in the eastern time zone, paying for all of those hotels, meals and tutors?   The other option is to fly back and forth constantly.   Gonzaga to the Big East may eventually happen.   But to say the distance/logistic issue is BS is simply wrong.    Gonzaga is a perfect fit in every other way.   Please explain why, if not distance, Gonzaga wasn't in the first 10.

Quote from: tower912 on July 15, 2013, 10:08:54 AM
DC to London,  3678 miles.   DC to Spokane, 2094 miles.   Good call.   But from Gonzaga's perspective, is it really worth it to have a 3 game road trip over 8 days all in the eastern time zone, paying for all of those hotels, meals and tutors?   The other option is to fly back and forth constantly.   Gonzaga to the Big East may eventually happen.   But to say the distance/logistic issue is BS is simply wrong.    Gonzaga is a perfect fit in every other way.   Please explain why, if not distance, Gonzaga wasn't in the first 10.

No, what I meant was that it is BS that it's an issue of logistics from the current Big East schools' perspective.

What I think they would generally try to do would put most all their east coast road trips on weekends for thurs/fri and sat/sun games (hit Providence and St. John's; Seton Hall and Villanova). Plus, if they go to 12 (say, with SLU) then we would go to divisions. So Gonzaga would only have to fly to the east coast for 3 road games a year. The rest would be in the Midwest and Plains.

I bet Gonzaga wasn't in because there was hesitation, and a desire to lock down a solid 10 first and not split into divisions. Its a very big change for Gonzaga to consider in just, what, 3 months? They haven't gone to 12 though without Gonzaga yet. it would be nice if there was a travel partner for them, but their closest one is like 400 or 500 miles away regardless. They'll always be on an odd island.

Why are you assuming that the BE would split into divisions?  The only other conferences that have divisions for basketball are the MAC and the Big South.  All of the major conferences have dropped them.

And why should Gonzaga get preferential treatment for their travel?  MU has flown out to the east coast multiple times in a week.  Why should the Zags get the weekends for their east coast games?

Quote from: Terror Skink on July 15, 2013, 10:23:15 AM
Why are you assuming that the BE would split into divisions?  The only other conferences that have divisions for basketball are the MAC and the Big South.  All of the major conferences have dropped them.

And why should Gonzaga get preferential treatment for their travel?  MU has flown out to the east coast multiple times in a week.  Why should the Zags get the weekends for their east coast games?

Well its more because we would be going to 12 teams and couldn't play everyone twice. I guess you could create a rolling schedule, but I think you'd want to make sure there are home and home's with select rivalries (DePaul-Marq, Xavier-BU, Villanova-GTown), and the easiest way to do that would be divisions guaranteeing home and home's with at least 5 schools and probably one other cross-division rival (assuming we want an 18 game schedule vs a 16 game one).

On the weekends, it would really only be one cause they would combine say a Georgetown and SJU/Villanova. So I guess then one more during the week (though if we're going to an 18-game schedule, there'd probably be one more game). I think some of those teams would enjoy a Fri/Sat night game against the Zags. Could always do Mondays for a long weekend too.

And on the divisions, I've personally always been a fan of divisions. But its a farce to say divisions don;t exist simply cause they don''t show up in the standings. Grew up on Big XII, and though they didn't do divisions, their schedules did. I hate doing division scheduling and not then making the standings divisional, but its a small gripe.

"Divisions" would also allow the conference to structure the schedule so Gonzaga isn't flying to DC and New York every year.

Put Gonzaga in a division with MU, Creighton, DePaul, Xavier, Butler. They are all a home and home. Have a rolling home and home, with 2 teams you only play once in the other division.

I say "divisions" because you dont necessarily have to structure the standings that way. But you can schedule it that way.

Again, they weren't in the first 10 because this will take a little bit of time to figure out. Its been a mad dash over the last year to just get the conference up and running. But it will happen in the next 5 years.

Quote from: Aughnanure on July 15, 2013, 10:29:51 AM
Well its more because we would be going to 12 teams and couldn't play everyone twice. I guess you could create a rolling schedule, but I think you'd want to make sure there are home and home's with select rivalries (DePaul-Marq, Xavier-BU, Villanova-GTown), and the easiest way to do that would be divisions guaranteeing home and home's with at least 5 schools and probably one other cross-division rival (assuming we want an 18 game schedule vs a 16 game one).

On the weekends, it would really only be one cause they would combine say a Georgetown and SJU/Villanova. So I guess then one more during the week (though if we're going to an 18-game schedule, there'd probably be one more game). I think some of those teams would enjoy a Fri/Sat night game against the Zags. Could always do Mondays for a long weekend too.

I've personally always been a fan of divisions. Grew up on Big XII, and though they didn't do divisions, their schedules did. I hate doing division scheduling and not then making the standings divisional, but its a small gripe.

I just don't think you will see divisions.  The BE didn't use them before.

But again with Gonzaga.  Why should they get the preferential treatment of an east coast trip where they can get two games with one shot?  If the schedule requires them to fly back and forth like everyone else, then they should do so.

The only way they can do this is if they have the "travel partner" concept like the P12 uses.  But I don't think that works real well for television.  (And yes, I know they aren't really travelling together...)

Quote from: Bleuteaux on July 15, 2013, 10:36:10 AM
Put Gonzaga in a division with MU, Creighton, DePaul, Xavier, Butler. They are all a home and home. Have a rolling home and home with 2 teams you only play once in the other division.

I would hate that as a Marquette fan.  I would rather have two games against the east coast schools...and I think the administration would too.

Quote from: Terror Skink on July 15, 2013, 10:37:32 AM

I would hate that as a Marquette fan.  I would rather have two games against the east coast schools...and I think the administration would too.

You are still playing home and home against 4 of these 6 schools every year: St. Johns, Seton Hall, Villanova, Georgetown, Providence and VCU. You play 2 of them once.

And in return you get Gonzaga and VCU to the confernece, the revenue that would be added by that. 2 more NCAA teams (almost) every year. 2-3 more games against ranked opponents. But you'd rather play one more game against Seton Hall, Providence or St. Johns?

Quote from: Terror Skink on July 15, 2013, 10:37:32 AM

I would hate that as a Marquette fan.  I would rather have two games against the east coast schools...and I think the administration would too.

To play Devil's Advocate, what if we were guaranteed a "cross-division rival" home and home with Georgetown every year in and one other random cross-division  home and home?

We would most likely become Gonzaga's main rivalry, which I think would be a bonus. Plus, I always like the debate that's naturally created over which division is better.

West: Marquette, Gonzaga, Creighton, DePaul, SLU, Butler
OR
East: Georgetown, Villanova, Xavier, St. John's, Providence, Seton Hall

Quote from: Aughnanure on July 15, 2013, 10:41:32 AM
To play Devil's Advocate, what if we were guaranteed a "cross-division rival" home and home with Georgetown every year in and one other random cross-division  home and home?

We would most likely become Gonzaga's main rivalry, which I think would be a bonus. Plus, I always like the debate that's naturally created over which division is better.

West: Marquette, Gonzaga, Creighton, DePaul, SLU, Butler
OR
East: Georgetown, Villanova, Xavier, St. John's, Providence, Seton Hall

I'd say West would be better more years than not.

Quote from: Bleuteaux on July 15, 2013, 10:41:26 AM
You are still playing home and home against 4 of these 6 schools every year: St. Johns, Seton Hall, Villanova, Georgetown, Providence and VCU. You play 2 of them once.

No, you play your division twice (10 games). Every team in the other division at least once (6 games). And two other cross-division teams twice (2 games) for a total of 18 games.

Quote from: Bleuteaux on July 15, 2013, 10:36:10 AM
"Divisions" would also allow the conference to structure the schedule so Gonzaga isn't flying to DC and New York every year.

Put Gonzaga in a division with MU, Creighton, DePaul, Xavier, Butler. They are all a home and home. Have a rolling home and home, with 2 teams you only play once in the other division.

I say "divisions" because you dont necessarily have to structure the standings that way. But you can schedule it that way.

Again, they weren't in the first 10 because this will take a little bit of time to figure out. Its been a mad dash over the last year to just get the conference up and running. But it will happen in the next 5 years.

Posts like this make sense when one considers that you are a blurry, fuzzy blue blob named after a character in "Animal House" who saw "seven years of college go down the drain".

/As the immortal John Blutarsky himself said after he took a folksinger's guitar and smashed it against the wall during a toga party; "Sorry."

Quote from: Aughnanure on July 15, 2013, 10:51:25 AM
No, you play your division twice (10 games). Every team in the other division at least once (6 games). And two other cross-division teams twice (2 games) for a total of 18 games.

You're right. I had it mixed up the other way. Maths

I think eventually we will move to like 14 teams.  The BCS leagues are mostly already there except the Big XII and we are gonna need more markets and more NCAA participants in order to stay relevant.  I think that means we need to add Gonzaga and SLU to get to 12.  Then maybe Richmond and Dayton to appease the east coast schools.  Don't have to split to divisions, just make it so the "western" teams play H/H every year and split with the "eastern" teams for all sports.

Quote from: Terror Skink on July 15, 2013, 09:58:41 AM

Their furthest rival in the WCC is San Diego...that is closer than their nearest rival would be in the new BE.  (Creighton).  Every other trip for them would be 1,500+ miles.

I question whether or not Gonzaga would do this simply because of what it does to their student athletes.

This one made me laugh out loud. Since when does a school care about its student-athletes? Have you seen Gonzaga's non-conference schedule the last decade? They fly all over the place, one time zone to the next. They should call them the Zig-Zags.

Conference tourneys ... NCAA early rounds ... Round of 16/8 ... for the top schools, the NCAA has student-athletes traveling the entire month of March. Heck, the same thing happens even for crappy teams that play in the NIT and the bajillion other postseason tournaments.

Caring about the student-athletes, a.k.a. indentured servants. That's a good one.

Quote from: MU82 on July 15, 2013, 11:27:03 AM
This one made me laugh out loud. Since when does a school care about its student-athletes? Have you seen Gonzaga's non-conference schedule the last decade? They fly all over the place, one time zone to the next. They should call them the Zig-Zags.

Conference tourneys ... NCAA early rounds ... Round of 16/8 ... for the top schools, the NCAA has student-athletes traveling the entire month of March. Heck, the same thing happens even for crappy teams that play in the NIT and the bajillion other postseason tournaments.

Caring about the student-athletes, a.k.a. indentured servants. That's a good one.

It might be time for keefe to chime in here because he will tell you that you are wrong...that these types of discussions have been addressed by their administration previously.

Quote from: LittleMurs on July 15, 2013, 08:29:09 AM
St. Louis, St. Joseph's and VCU beg to differ.

Sure Xavier and Temple accounted for 19 of the roughly 26 Regular or Tournament A-10 champions since 2000 (I say roughly because I'm sure there were occasional ties during the regular season) but sure go ahead and claim that St. Louis and St Joseph's are flagship programs by the way those two teams combine for 7 ncaa tournament appearances and you claim that their flagship programs for a conference? I find that laughable.  (VCU hasn't been their long enough)

Regarding Gonzaga:

What I would like to see is Gonzaga added as a basketball only member. This way you eliminate the cost of sending the non-revenue sports (golf, track, tennis, etc) to Spokane for conference matches. Let the Zags keep their other sports in the WCC....its not like the WCC is in a position to refuse them.

In exchange, I would be willing to give them an equall slice of the pie despite them being basketball only. This should make up for the cost of sending their basketball teams to the east coast. Smart scheduling can minimize the strain on their student athletes. They would make significantly more money than they do now, and we would get the most dominate mid major in college basketball.

I honestly don't think money/logistics is preventing Gonzaga from entering. The BEast would accept them in a heartbeat. What would give me cause for concern as Gonzaga would be the effect on recruiting. Gonzaga recruits almost exclusively from the West Coast. One of their greatest recruiting tools is "hey, your family can come see you play when we come to Pepperdine/Loyala Marymount/etc." They lose that edge if they come east. They get other benefits, such as more national exposure...but its enough to make you pause.

Also, VCU is one of the next two added. No questions asked.

Quote from: Analytical Eagle on July 15, 2013, 02:52:56 PM
Regarding Gonzaga:

What I would like to see is Gonzaga added as a basketball only member. This way you eliminate the cost of sending the non-revenue sports (golf, track, tennis, etc) to Spokane for conference matches. Let the Zags keep their other sports in the WCC....its not like the WCC is in a position to refuse them.

Sure they are.  Why would the WCC allow Gonzaga to stay in the conference without it's primary, revenue generating program?  Look at a map...outside of Portland, there is no school closer than 700 miles to Spokane.

Quote from: Analytical Eagle on July 15, 2013, 02:52:56 PM
Regarding Gonzaga:

Gonzaga recruits almost exclusively from the West Coast. One of their greatest recruiting tools is "hey, your family can come see you play when we come to Pepperdine/Loyala Marymount/etc." They lose that edge if they come east.

Ummm...that has never been my understanding of Gonzaga's recruiting base, and a quick look at their rosters for the last several years (http://www.gozags.com/SportSelect.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=26400&SPID=90846&SPSID=627536) bears that out.  Going back five years or so on their website, I see the following:

• Nampa, ID
• Newmarket, Ontario
• Kent, WA
• Ivory Coast (via Midland, TX, and Van Nuys, CA)
• Spokane, WA
• Kamloops, BC
• Monterey, CA
• Longview, WA
• Germany
• Boston, MA
• Poland
• Portland, OR
• Brooklyn Park, MN
• Memphis, TN
• Spring, TX
• Edmonton, Alberta
• Bainbridge, WA
• Quincy, WA
• McKinney, TX
• Marion, IA
• Highlands Ranch, CO
• Bonney Lake, WA
• Chicago, IL
• Irvine, CA
• Olympia, WA
• Kirtland, WA
• Bainbridge, WA
• Clarkston, WA
• Conroe, TX

I'd be hard pressed to accept that this suggests that Gonzaga "recruits almost exclusively from the West Coast....Pepperdine/Loyala Marymount/etc."  Granted, they recruit heavily from Washington (although not "almost exclusively" -- and I'm not sure that's what you meant when you said "west coast"), but that's not really the same thing.  And it certainly doesn't fit in with the "come see your kid play when we're in town" recruiting angle.

Quote from: StillAWarrior on July 15, 2013, 03:58:50 PM

Ummm...that has never been my understanding of Gonzaga's recruiting base, and a quick look at their rosters for the last several years (http://www.gozags.com/SportSelect.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=26400&SPID=90846&SPSID=627536) bears that out.  Going back five years or so on their website, I see the following:

• Nampa, ID
• Newmarket, Ontario
• Kent, WA
• Ivory Coast (via Midland, TX, and Van Nuys, CA)
• Spokane, WA
• Kamloops, BC
• Monterey, CA
• Longview, WA
• Germany
• Boston, MA
• Poland
• Portland, OR
• Brooklyn Park, MN
• Memphis, TN
• Spring, TX
• Edmonton, Alberta
• Bainbridge, WA
• Quincy, WA
• McKinney, TX
• Marion, IA
• Highlands Ranch, CO
• Bonney Lake, WA
• Chicago, IL
• Irvine, CA
• Olympia, WA
• Kirtland, WA
• Bainbridge, WA
• Clarkston, WA
• Conroe, TX

I'd be hard pressed to accept that this suggests that Gonzaga "recruits almost exclusively from the West Coast....Pepperdine/Loyala Marymount/etc."  Granted, they recruit heavily from Washington (although not "almost exclusively" -- and I'm not sure that's what you meant when you said "west coast"), but that's not really the same thing.  And it certainly doesn't fit in with the "come see your kid play when we're in town" recruiting angle.

+1... First, how many of those WA players are walk-ons?
Second, it's tantamount to saying Marquette exclusively recruits Wisconsin.  10 of 29 recruits came from Washington.  MU has had 11 guys from Wisconsin in 5 years (for the benefit of those flatlanders who have trouble counting).... and it's not like they've been garden-variety talent either:

Deonte, Duane, Jameel - Could be the best class of cheese anyone has ever recruited to anywhere
Jake - Not five-star talent, but pretty damn good for a former walk-on.
Jamil & Vander -  See "last 2:00 vs. Davidson 2013"
Dwight & Wes - In the league.
Jeronne & Scotty Chris - Both former Mr. Basketballs.  Both transferred.  Hmmmm.
Frozen Pizza - Needs no explanation.  Best damn walk-on in the past decade plus, hands down.

Quote from: Benny B on July 15, 2013, 04:28:10 PM
+1... First, how many of those WA players are walk-ons?
Second, it's tantamount to saying Marquette exclusively recruits Wisconsin.  10 of 29 recruits came from Washington.  MU has had 11 guys from Wisconsin in 5 years (for the benefit of those flatlanders who have trouble counting).... and it's not like they've been garden-variety talent either:

Deonte, Duane, Jameel - Could be the best class of cheese anyone has ever recruited to anywhere
Jake - Not five-star talent, but pretty damn good for a former walk-on.
Jamil & Vander -  See "last 2:00 vs. Davidson 2013"
Dwight & Wes - In the league.
Jeronne & Scotty Chris - Both former Mr. Basketballs.  Both transferred.  Hmmmm.
Frozen Pizza - Needs no explanation.  Best damn walk-on in the past decade plus, hands down.

wasn't MU known more for recruiting Chicagoland? I could be wayyy off but I thought that an announcer once in a video said Al recruits guards from Chi and tall guys from NYC or something along those lines. 

Quote from: StillAWarrior on July 15, 2013, 03:58:50 PM

Ummm...that has never been my understanding of Gonzaga's recruiting base, and a quick look at their rosters for the last several years (http://www.gozags.com/SportSelect.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=26400&SPID=90846&SPSID=627536) bears that out.  Going back five years or so on their website, I see the following:

• Nampa, ID
• Newmarket, Ontario
• Kent, WA
• Ivory Coast (via Midland, TX, and Van Nuys, CA)
• Spokane, WA
• Kamloops, BC
• Monterey, CA
• Longview, WA
• Germany
• Boston, MA
• Poland
• Portland, OR
• Brooklyn Park, MN
• Memphis, TN
• Spring, TX
• Edmonton, Alberta
• Bainbridge, WA
• Quincy, WA
• McKinney, TX
• Marion, IA
• Highlands Ranch, CO
• Bonney Lake, WA
• Chicago, IL
• Irvine, CA
• Olympia, WA
• Kirtland, WA
• Bainbridge, WA
• Clarkston, WA
• Conroe, TX

I'd be hard pressed to accept that this suggests that Gonzaga "recruits almost exclusively from the West Coast....Pepperdine/Loyala Marymount/etc."  Granted, they recruit heavily from Washington (although not "almost exclusively" -- and I'm not sure that's what you meant when you said "west coast"), but that's not really the same thing.  And it certainly doesn't fit in with the "come see your kid play when we're in town" recruiting angle.

I'm not just talking about basketball here. You have to consider all of their other sports as well. Women's basketball, golf, tennis, rowing, softball, etc. Those recruit heavily from the west coast.

Quote from: Terror Skink on July 15, 2013, 03:05:05 PM

Sure they are.  Why would the WCC allow Gonzaga to stay in the conference without it's primary, revenue generating program?  Look at a map...outside of Portland, there is no school closer than 700 miles to Spokane.

Because Gonzaga even without basketball is still worth about the same or more than anyone they could attract to replace them. The west coast is pretty thin. Plus, BYU won't stay in for long.

Here we go with VCU again.  Theyre bad for a number of reasons

1. Big state school. Thus they may get tempted to add football down the line
2.  Big state school. Thus there are FOI concerns (sorry, Sultan, but i still have lingering doubts about this being a trivial problem)
3.  Big state school. Thus a bad institutional fit.
4.  Butler was good before brad stevens. What will vcu be like when smart leaves?

And does anyone know about their administration?  Id be possibly willing to overlook the big state school aspects for programs like UConn, cincy, memphis, or temple, but for a potential 3-yr wonder like vcu, ill hold off on that.

Id rather stay at 10 for as long as fox lets us and see what happens (i have this dream that we will one day get wake forest...i know, i know, i said dream)

Quote from: Analytical Eagle on July 15, 2013, 05:49:05 PM
Because Gonzaga even without basketball is still worth about the same or more than anyone they could attract to replace them.

You're right, for non-revenue generating sports Gonzaga (basically nothing) is indeed worth the same as any other school (basically nothing).  If they withdraw the only thing that gives the rest of the conference value, the others wouldn't do them a favor.  They'd make them pay to play.  Same goes for the Big East - they won't give equal revenue to a program which doesn't incur the same costs as the rest.

Quote from: ElDonBDon on July 15, 2013, 06:16:37 PM
Id rather stay at 10 for as long as fox lets us and see what happens

Sounds like a plan.  If we have to get SLU and Richmond eventually, fine.  No rush, it's not like they have better options.

Quote from: Analytical Eagle on July 15, 2013, 05:49:05 PM
Because Gonzaga even without basketball is still worth about the same or more than anyone they could attract to replace them. The west coast is pretty thin. Plus, BYU won't stay in for long.

No.  Their membership will cost its other members too much in terms of travel.  They just added Pacific, and there are other schools out there that would jump at them...like Seattle or Cal St. Bakersfield.

Quote from: Skatastrophy on July 15, 2013, 08:35:47 AM
That was the worst MU team I'd seen show up all year. We deserved to lose that game, honestly.

MU was poor against St. John's and against Notre Dame in Big East tournament. MU brook out of three game funk at the last second while Davidison choked.

Quote from: Skatastrophy on July 15, 2013, 08:35:47 AM
That was the worst MU team I'd seen show up all year. We deserved to lose that game, honestly.

Really?  Worse than the E8 game? Or UWGB? 

Quote from: Analytical Eagle on July 15, 2013, 05:47:27 PM
I'm not just talking about basketball here. You have to consider all of their other sports as well. Women's basketball, golf, tennis, rowing, softball, etc. Those recruit heavily from the west coast.

Fair enough. I obviously was looking only at the men's basketball team.  The numbers go up in those other sports, but it still appears to be a minority (except in golf).  But there's enough sprinkled in there that I'd agree that it looks like they recruit that area heavily -- if not "almost exclusively."

Quote from: Benny B on July 15, 2013, 04:28:10 PM
Frozen Pizza - Needs no explanation.  Best damn walk-on in the past decade plus, hands down.

Indeed, Benny.  Indeed.

Quote from: 77ncaachamps on July 12, 2013, 12:54:35 AM
If it wasn't for Steph Curry, Davidson Dwyane Wade, Marquette would not even be brought up in a possible BE expansion conversation in 2005.

Well, every program has had its game changers.

I like the conference how it is if we can keep it at 10.  If there is a way to add Gonzaga, I would love it.  No one else really interests me all that much, but I don't dislike Davidson any more than the other names being thrown around.  They have had some very good teams and players and it is a fine institution.  They are just very small, don't bring much interest and have played in an awful conference.

Quote from: ElDonBDon on July 15, 2013, 06:16:37 PM
Here we go with VCU again.  Theyre bad for a number of reasons

1. Big state school. Thus they may get tempted to add football down the line
2.  Big state school. Thus there are FOI concerns (sorry, Sultan, but i still have lingering doubts about this being a trivial problem)
3.  Big state school. Thus a bad institutional fit.
4.  Butler was good before brad stevens. What will vcu be like when smart leaves?

And does anyone know about their administration?  Id be possibly willing to overlook the big state school aspects for programs like UConn, cincy, memphis, or temple, but for a potential 3-yr wonder like vcu, ill hold off on that.

Id rather stay at 10 for as long as fox lets us and see what happens (i have this dream that we will one day get wake forest...i know, i know, i said dream)

1.  I find it difficult to believe that any school that doesnt already have football will want to add it.  It costs so much upfront and they would also need to add an additional women's sport.  See:  multiple threads on this site regarding MU adding football.
2.  I still don't see this as any issue whatsoever.
3.  This would be the main reason they are not added.  They just don't fit the profile of the other schools in the league and there are other programs out there that do.
4.  VCU was also good before Smart.  See:  Anthony Grant

I'd like to see them added from a basketball standpoint.  They are an extremely exciting program to watch.  I still dont think they get added though as you pointed out, they are not a great cultural fit.

Quote from: WarriorInDC on July 16, 2013, 09:16:49 AM
1.  I find it difficult to believe that any school that doesnt already have football will want to add it.  It costs so much upfront and they would also need to add an additional women's sport.  See:  multiple threads on this site regarding MU adding football.
2.  I still don't see this as any issue whatsoever.
3.  This would be the main reason they are not added.  They just don't fit the profile of the other schools in the league and there are other programs out there that do.
4.  VCU was also good before Smart.  See:  Anthony Grant

I'd like to see them added from a basketball standpoint.  They are an extremely exciting program to watch.  I still dont think they get added though as you pointed out, they are not a great cultural fit.

They are what, #3 probably #4 state school in VA? They're not the flagship state program that UConn was when the Big East added. They will ALWAYS be under VaTech and UVA's shadows. I seriously don;t get why people get so excited about them. They're essentially a UWM that went on a lucky run one year.

Also, sure they were "good" before Smart but they still have been to the 2nd weekend in the tourney just ONCE. They will not be added over SLU.

Quote from: Aughnanure on July 16, 2013, 09:31:48 AM
They are what, #3 probably #4 state school in VA? They're not the flagship state program that UConn was when the Big East added. They will ALWAYS be under VaTech and UVA's shadows. I seriously don;t get why people get so excited about them. They're essentially a UWM that went on a lucky run one year.

Also, sure they were "good" before Smart but they still have been to the 2nd weekend in the tourney just ONCE. They will not be added over SLU.

In terms of quality of basketball over the last 2 years, they would be the top school in VA.  In terms of attention, of course they are under VaTech and UVA.  Not sure what other school you threw in above them to drop them to #4 however.

People get excited about VCU simply because they have been a very good team in recent years.  In comparison to SLU, they have been much better.  VCU has been to the tourney 6 times since 2004.  SLU, only twice.  SLU has only been to the second weekend once since 1957.  Not sure why you bring this up for VCU but ignore SLU's lack of tourney success.

On top of that, Shaka Smart is one of the biggest names in coaching today.  Compared to SLU, there is some unfamiliarity with how successful Crews can continue to be.

If you really cannot see why people would get excited about VCU, then I don't know what else to say to you.

But also, if you read my post, you would see that I said VCU will not be added.  I do agree SLU would be added before VCU and they should because they are a better fit culturally as they fit the profile.

Quote from: WarriorInDC on July 16, 2013, 09:51:27 AM
In terms of quality of basketball over the last 2 years, they would be the top school in VA.  In terms of attention, of course they are under VaTech and UVA.  Not sure what other school you threw in above them to drop them to #4 however.

People get excited about VCU simply because they have been a very good team in recent years.  In comparison to SLU, they have been much better.  VCU has been to the tourney 6 times since 2004.  SLU, only twice.  SLU has only been to the second weekend once since 1957.  Not sure why you bring this up for VCU but ignore SLU's lack of tourney success.

On top of that, Shaka Smart is one of the biggest names in coaching today.  Compared to SLU, there is some unfamiliarity with how successful Crews can continue to be.

If you really cannot see why people would get excited about VCU, then I don't know what else to say to you.

But also, if you read my post, you would see that I said VCU will not be added.  I do agree SLU would be added before VCU and they should because they are a better fit culturally as they fit the profile.

James Madison, ODU, George Mason. I think it's a bit premature to declare them a clear #3 in that state for just a few good years.

SLU is a better fit, in a better market, with better academics, with better facilities, with a better arena. No, SLU overall history ain't great (they've technically never been to the second weekend, since getting to the Sweet 16 in the 50s was one win) but I'll challenge that VCU is somehow world's better. SLU always has competed in a better conference than VCU until now, so congrats on VCU beating up on a poor CAA and having ONE great run.

Also, if you're argument to add or not add a specific school is based on who their coach is (right now), I just don't know what to say to that kind of short-sighted logic.

Quote from: WarriorInDC on July 16, 2013, 09:16:49 AM
1.  I find it difficult to believe that any school that doesnt already have football will want to add it.  It costs so much upfront and they would also need to add an additional women's sport.  See:  multiple threads on this site regarding MU adding football.

I live in Charlotte. In about six weeks, UNC-Charlotte's new football team begins play in its new football stadium.

They moved from the A-10 to Conference USA just to play football.

Not saying it would or could happen with VCU. Just saying never say never.

Quote from: Skatastrophy on July 13, 2013, 01:43:17 PM
That wasn't part of the original commercial. It was a joke.

And a good one.

The answer is yes, BW3 would have had to have approval. Well, they wouldn't *have* to but there's no way BW3 was going to put out a commercial without having its ducks in a row first.

Quote from: Aughnanure on July 16, 2013, 10:17:25 AM
James Madison, ODU, George Mason. I think it's a bit premature to declare them a clear #3 in that state for just a few good years.

SLU is a better fit, in a better market, with better academics, with better facilities, with a better arena. No, SLU overall history ain't great (they've technically never been to the second weekend, since getting to the Sweet 16 in the 50s was one win) but I'll challenge that VCU is somehow world's better. SLU always has competed in a better conference than VCU until now, so congrats on VCU beating up on a poor CAA and having ONE great run.

Also, if you're argument to add or not add a specific school is based on who their coach is (right now), I just don't know what to say to that kind of short-sighted logic.

And again, I am arguing that SLU is also a better fit than VCU.  Where did I say they should be added because of Shaka? 

Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on July 15, 2013, 05:14:49 PM
wasn't MU known more for recruiting Chicagoland? I could be wayyy off but I thought that an announcer once in a video said Al recruits guards from Chi and tall guys from NYC or something along those lines. 

Yes, back in the day, that was absolutely correct.  Al was a student of the streets in NYC and that formed the foundation of his entire being, including his coaching/recruiting philosophy.  Such gave birth to the infamous McGuireism, "Cracked Sidewalks."

Though MU has continued to recruit in Chicago post-Al (mainly because of proximity), so does every blue blood... hence the reason that outside of Cordell, Wade, Jerel, and Steve Jr., Chicago hasn't exactly been a hotbed of talent for MU over the past couple decades as one may think.  This gives rhyme to the reason a good portion of us believe the addition Coach Chew was a priority for Buzz: to re-establish MU as a major player in Chicago (amongst his other contributions).

[The omission of Wardle from the preceding list is intentional; granted, he is from the Chicago metro, Clarendon Hills probably has as many cracks in their sidewalks as they have people on the sidewalk doing crack.]

Quote from: WarriorInDC on July 16, 2013, 10:52:25 AM
And again, I am arguing that SLU is also a better fit than VCU.  Where did I say they should be added because of Shaka? 

Well I guess I didn't see this: "I still don't think they get added though as you pointed out, they are not a great cultural fit." ;D

I'm just not as enamored with VCU like many here are and think they would be a poor choice if they ever got in over a SLU type program.

VCU is absolutely the next add to the BEast.

They ARE a cultural fit with the rest of the Big East. They are a strong basketball only school with a decent history of winning, and a talented young coach. That is the culture of the Big East.

To say that VCU shouldn't be included in the Big East because they are a big state school is as big of a fallacy as when people were saying Butler wouldn't be added because they weren't Catholic. Our institutions don't need to match up perfectly, just our commitment to excellence in academics and athletics.

VCU brings so much more to the Big East than SLU ever could (besides the Saint Louis TV market). SLU was pretty good last season, and will be a bubble team this season. But before that? They have been to the tournament 5 times in the last 55 years. That's once every 11 years. By comparison, VCU has been 11 times in the last 33 years...once every three years. Not to mention that one of those appearances came with a final four.

There is also the future to consider. Majereus made SLU relevant game. Crews lived off Majereus' leftovers. The new coach hasn't showed the ability to attract recruits of his own. Whereas Smart is bringing in a four star, two high three stars, and a two star this season, and already has a very high four star commit for 2014, Crews is bringing in a low three star and a couple of two stars.

Don't get me wrong, SLU will be added...but it will be for the Saint Louis TV market...not their success in basketball. They will also only be added if Gonzaga says no or after we decide to expand beyond 12.

I think being a big state school is irrelevant. VCU may have a different vision, but they have only one vote out of 12(?) schools, so they have very little, if any, influence on the Catholic schools vision for the conference.

Quote from: Analytical Eagle on July 17, 2013, 01:20:44 PM
VCU is absolutely the next add to the BEast.

They ARE a cultural fit with the rest of the Big East. They are a strong basketball only school with a decent history of winning, and a talented young coach. That is the culture of the Big East.

To say that VCU shouldn't be included in the Big East because they are a big state school is as big of a fallacy as when people were saying Butler wouldn't be added because they weren't Catholic. Our institutions don't need to match up perfectly, just our commitment to excellence in academics and athletics.

VCU brings so much more to the Big East than SLU ever could (besides the Saint Louis TV market). SLU was pretty good last season, and will be a bubble team this season. But before that? They have been to the tournament 5 times in the last 55 years. That's once every 11 years. By comparison, VCU has been 11 times in the last 33 years...once every three years. Not to mention that one of those appearances came with a final four.

There is also the future to consider. Majereus made SLU relevant game. Crews lived off Majereus' leftovers. The new coach hasn't showed the ability to attract recruits of his own. Whereas Smart is bringing in a four star, two high three stars, and a two star this season, and already has a very high four star commit for 2014, Crews is bringing in a low three star and a couple of two stars.

Don't get me wrong, SLU will be added...but it will be for the Saint Louis TV market...not their success in basketball. They will also only be added if Gonzaga says no or after we decide to expand beyond 12.

Starting a football team and probably following North Carolina Charlotte to CUSA doesn't sound like a cultural fit to The Big East to me.  While no decision has yet been made, VCU's AD said in January that he gets asked about it every day.  Coincidentally, that same AD, McLaughlin, in his first five months on the job took the time to estimate the investment that adding football would take.  While a decision is "far" in the future for VCU, the fact that they're looking at it at all can't be a factor in their favor as a potential Big East member.

Quote from: Analytical Eagle on July 17, 2013, 01:20:44 PM
VCU is absolutely the next add to the BEast.

They ARE a cultural fit with the rest of the Big East. They are a strong basketball only school with a decent history of winning, and a talented young coach. That is the culture of the Big East.

To say that VCU shouldn't be included in the Big East because they are a big state school is as big of a fallacy as when people were saying Butler wouldn't be added because they weren't Catholic. Our institutions don't need to match up perfectly, just our commitment to excellence in academics and athletics.

VCU brings so much more to the Big East than SLU ever could (besides the Saint Louis TV market). SLU was pretty good last season, and will be a bubble team this season. But before that? They have been to the tournament 5 times in the last 55 years. That's once every 11 years. By comparison, VCU has been 11 times in the last 33 years...once every three years. Not to mention that one of those appearances came with a final four.

There is also the future to consider. Majereus made SLU relevant game. Crews lived off Majereus' leftovers. The new coach hasn't showed the ability to attract recruits of his own. Whereas Smart is bringing in a four star, two high three stars, and a two star this season, and already has a very high four star commit for 2014, Crews is bringing in a low three star and a couple of two stars.

Don't get me wrong, SLU will be added...but it will be for the Saint Louis TV market...not their success in basketball. They will also only be added if Gonzaga says no or after we decide to expand beyond 12.

In all fairness to SLU it's more like they were good last year and the year before and if they actually make it next year like you believe 3 straight years is a decent.  

Also for the sake of not listening to the "you don't want to go to war... with a ram" song every time that we would play VCU I'd vote against them. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4J8ppQBMPT0

Quote from: Analytical Eagle on July 17, 2013, 01:20:44 PM
VCU is absolutely the next add to the BEast.

They ARE a cultural fit with the rest of the Big East. They are a strong basketball only school with a decent history of winning, and a talented young coach. That is the culture of the Big East.

To say that VCU shouldn't be included in the Big East because they are a big state school is as big of a fallacy as when people were saying Butler wouldn't be added because they weren't Catholic. Our institutions don't need to match up perfectly, just our commitment to excellence in academics and athletics.

VCU brings so much more to the Big East than SLU ever could (besides the Saint Louis TV market). SLU was pretty good last season, and will be a bubble team this season. But before that? They have been to the tournament 5 times in the last 55 years. That's once every 11 years. By comparison, VCU has been 11 times in the last 33 years...once every three years. Not to mention that one of those appearances came with a final four.

There is also the future to consider. Majereus made SLU relevant game. Crews lived off Majereus' leftovers. The new coach hasn't showed the ability to attract recruits of his own. Whereas Smart is bringing in a four star, two high three stars, and a two star this season, and already has a very high four star commit for 2014, Crews is bringing in a low three star and a couple of two stars.

Don't get me wrong, SLU will be added...but it will be for the Saint Louis TV market...not their success in basketball. They will also only be added if Gonzaga says no or after we decide to expand beyond 12.

There's a huge difference between not being Catholic and not being private. A small, non-Catholic private school such as Butler still is right in line with what the league is about. A large state school is not in line. Unless the Big East changes its plan, of course.

As for "a talented young coach," any league that would choose any institution even 1% because of who coaches its basketball team today is a poorly-run hack of a league. Shaka could leave in an instant, just as Stevens did, just as Buzz could, etc. It's a total, total, total non-factor. We are trying to build a league that stands the test of time. Coaches are notorious vagabonds, and that's even more the case for coaches in a "lesser" league (a.k.a. one without football).

Quote from: Analytical Eagle on July 17, 2013, 01:20:44 PM
VCU is absolutely the next add to the BEast.

They ARE a cultural fit with the rest of the Big East. They are a strong basketball only school with a decent history of winning, and a talented young coach. That is the culture of the Big East.

Are you kidding me? VCU is a generic commuter school in Richmond. Were it not for Shaka Smart, it would resemble Towson...or UWM.

Quote from: DFW HOYA on July 17, 2013, 09:11:35 PM
Are you kidding me? VCU is a generic commuter school in Richmond. Were it not for Shaka Smart, it would resemble Towson...or UWM.

Being from Great Falls my perception of VCU is that it is not even the Commonwealth's equivalent of UWM. It is likely Virginians' 7th choice behind UVA, CWM, VPI, GMU, JMU, and ODU. As an institution it has very little in common with the 10 private universities presently comprising the Big East. We should not wish for VCU to join our club.

As a current VCU undergraduate student (and perhaps the only Marquette fan on this campus), I'd love for my school to be the next BE addition. I'm not so sure that it will happen in the next few years though. I'd understand the hesitation on the part of the BE in picking up a large research institution (and when I say large, I mean it).

But let me make the case: the athletic dept. just released a long-term strategic plan, outlining their vision for student athlete success and expansion of the Siegel Center (along with fundraising for a new dedicated practice facility). We will have completely new branding implemented just before the season begins. Our student section is better than ever. Everyone is talking about the basketball team on campus (I used to attend games in middle/high school and the enthusiasm was about 1/10th this level at the time). Funding is at an all-time high and the administration is on board 110%. Oh, and Shaka?

http://youtu.be/4J8ppQBMPT0 (a newer chant - I think we'll get them all jumping this season)

Richmond would be a massive mistake. Huge, huge mistake. Yes, the university has nearly unlimited cash flow due to donations. But, the fan base is utterly non-existent. I've been to a few games and it's quite a pathetic sight.

VCU, as both an institution and a basketball school, is on the right track. This university has revived the core of this city and has students genuinely excited for the first time since the 80's. I don't think the BE could go wrong picking us up. If not, Marquette is still (and always will be) my first love.

Quote from: ssnakes9 on July 18, 2013, 09:28:46 AM
As a current VCU undergraduate student (and perhaps the only Marquette fan on this campus), I'd love for my school to be the next BE addition. I'm not so sure that it will happen in the next few years though. I'd understand the hesitation on the part of the BE in picking up a large research institution (and when I say large, I mean it).

But let me make the case: the athletic dept. just released a long-term strategic plan, outlining their vision for student athlete success and expansion of the Siegel Center (along with fundraising for a new dedicated practice facility). We will have completely new branding implemented just before the season begins. Our student section is better than ever. Everyone is talking about the basketball team on campus (I used to attend games in middle/high school and the enthusiasm was about 1/10th this level at the time). Funding is at an all-time high and the administration is on board 110%. Oh, and Shaka?

http://youtu.be/4J8ppQBMPT0 (a newer chant - I think we'll get them all jumping this season)

Richmond would be a massive mistake. Huge, huge mistake. Yes, the university has nearly unlimited cash flow due to donations. But, the fan base is utterly non-existent. I've been to a few games and it's quite a pathetic sight.

VCU, as both an institution and a basketball school, is on the right track. This university has revived the core of this city and has students genuinely excited for the first time since the 80's. I don't think the BE could go wrong picking us up. If not, Marquette is still (and always will be) my first love.

Thanks for the insight.  Is VCU talking about adding football?

Quote from: DFW HOYA on July 17, 2013, 09:11:35 PM
Are you kidding me? VCU is a generic commuter school in Richmond. Were it not for Shaka Smart, it would resemble Towson...or UWM.

Quote from: keefe on July 17, 2013, 09:21:01 PM
Being from Great Falls my perception of VCU is that it is not even the Commonwealth's equivalent of UWM. It is likely Virginians' 7th choice behind UVA, CWM, VPI, GMU, JMU, and ODU. As an institution it has very little in common with the 10 private universities presently comprising the Big East. We should not wish for VCU to join our club.

Not true and not true.

Sure, the "generic commuter" statement would have been accurate 5-10 years ago. But VCU has made enormous strides since that time. Housing capacity has been doubled over the past decade. I believe we have approximately 6,000 beds now. Also, you must understand that the university is located on the edge of a large inner-city residential neighborhood. Thousands of students live within 25 city blocks.

The "7th choice" statement is misleading as well. VCU is considered to be a highly respected choice these days. The engineering and art schools are among the best in the state (in fact, the art program is #1 in the nation). UVA, CWM and VT are the only schools I'd rank higher on the list in regards to desirability (JMU, GMU and ODU are in the same conversation).

If the BE doesn't pick us up due to the public institution factor, than so be it. I can live with that. But this basketball program is tops in the state right now and by a long shot (UVA could challenge that soon, though).

Quote from: Terror Skink on July 18, 2013, 09:32:06 AM

Thanks for the insight.  Is VCU talking about adding football?

It's similar to the Marquette discussion. Having talked with multiple individuals involved with school administrators, I don't see it happening. People will post on the forums and we'll wear our "undefeated since 19xx" shirts around campus, but the interest level isn't there.

Edit: I would be remiss to not mention this article from the RTD: http://www.timesdispatch.com/sports/college/vcu/vcu-seeks-to-elevate-its-profile-in-five-year-athletic/article_9214d93c-95c8-52f2-8eee-2785dd390c7e.html

"Adding football is not part of the plan."

And from Twitter: "Since you're going to ask, McLaughlin says VCU hasn't been contacted by the Big East or AAC, & effectively dismissed the football question."

Also want to mention our kick-a** pep band: http://youtu.be/Hqu3rWsm_ps

Quote from: ssnakes9 on July 18, 2013, 09:38:34 AM
Not true and not true.

Sure, the "generic commuter" statement would have been accurate 5-10 years ago. But VCU has made enormous strides since that time. Housing capacity has been doubled over the past decade. I believe we have approximately 6,000 beds now. Also, you must understand that the university is located on the edge of a large inner-city residential neighborhood. Thousands of students live within 25 city blocks.

The "7th choice" statement is misleading as well. VCU is considered to be a highly respected choice these days. The engineering and art schools are among the best in the state (in fact, the art program is #1 in the nation). UVA, CWM and VT are the only schools I'd rank higher on the list in regards to desirability (JMU, GMU and ODU are in the same conversation).

If the BE doesn't pick us up due to the public institution factor, than so be it. I can live with that. But this basketball program is tops in the state right now and by a long shot (UVA could challenge that soon, though).

Added for emphasis. And it will take only a millisecond for that to be topped.

Quote from: ssnakes9 on July 18, 2013, 09:28:46 AM

Richmond would be a massive mistake. Huge, huge mistake. Yes, the university has nearly unlimited cash flow due to donations. But, the fan base is utterly non-existent. I've been to a few games and it's quite a pathetic sight.

Money fixes a lot of things. They're not perfect, but all things being equal I'll take the one with near unlimited resources.

Quote from: Aughnanure on July 18, 2013, 10:08:39 AM
Money fixes a lot of things. They're not perfect, but all things being equal I'll take the one with near unlimited resources.

Trust me, I agree. But I have interned in their athletic department. It was a complete clusterfu*k to say the least.

Things could have changed since then. Considering the amount of turnover they have had lately, though, I doubt it. Among other things, the recent decisions regarding the soccer and track/field programs didn't go over well at all. All in all, Richmond Spiders basketball is one of the least popular attractions in this city.

I've come full circle on this.  I don't mind public universities as long as they give some sort of "pledge" not to add football programs.  I think VCU would be a much better choice than Richmond. 

So my vote is for VCU and St. Louis. 

Quote from: ssnakes9 on July 18, 2013, 10:14:41 AM
I have interned in their athletic department. It was a complete clusterfu*k to say the least.

Things could have changed since then. Considering the amount of turnover they have had lately, though, I doubt it. Among other things, the recent decisions regarding the soccer and track/field programs didn't go over well at all.

Yeah. Have heard about that. Richmond is a school you take for a number of reasons, but current AD competence isn't exactly one of them. Some short-sighted decisions that I'm sure they would be fixing if invited. If they ever were, I guarantee they will have to make promises in their financial and facility commitment.

Though I also take what rivals say about each other with a grain of salt. VCU ain't as great and "upcoming" as their fans think nor as awful a fit as their detractors say.

Again, money fixes a lot of things and they'll have even more in the Big East.

Quote from: Terror Skink on July 18, 2013, 10:18:19 AM
I've come full circle on this.  I don't mind public universities as long as they give some sort of "pledge" not to add football programs.  I think VCU would be a much better choice than Richmond.  

So my vote is for VCU and St. Louis.  

I will never get excited about the #4/#5 public school in any state. They will always be overshadowed by their bigger, football-playing relatives and it will take 4 seconds for that state to fall in love with the next basketball success story.

This isn't finding UConn in 1979. That was a flagship state school.

Would love to add UMass if they would just back off adding football.

Quote from: Aughnanure on July 18, 2013, 10:22:30 AM
I will never get excited about the #4/#5 public school in any state. They will always be overshadowed by their bigger, football-playing relatives and it will take 4 seconds for that state to fall in love with the next basketball success story.

This isn't finding UConn in 1979. That was a flagship state school.

Would love to add UMass if they would just back off adding football.

Are you trying to weaken the conference? I mean seriously they haven't made the tournament since 98

Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on July 18, 2013, 10:47:28 AM
Are you trying to weaken the conference? I mean seriously they haven't made the tournament since 98

I'll take a flagship public university from a highly populated northwest state.

Also, it's a fallacy that this conference needs nearly every team to be tourney-bound. We need our doormats just as much.

Quote from: Aughnanure on July 18, 2013, 10:22:30 AM
I will never get excited about the #4/#5 public school in any state. They will always be overshadowed by their bigger, football-playing relatives and it will take 4 seconds for that state to fall in love with the next basketball success story.

This isn't finding UConn in 1979. That was a flagship state school.

Would love to add UMass if they would just back off adding football.

UMASS just joined the MAC for football.  They aren't dropping it anytime soon.

This is an absolutely unrealistic idea, but what if the Big East formed some sort of multi-tiered league of the eastern private schools that works similar to the EPL and the lower leagues in English soccer. The top ten teams are the "Big East", and there would be several tiers below those ten. The bottom two schools would be relegated every year to the lower league and the top two of the lower league would be promoted to the top ten every year. The bottom two of tier 2 would drop to tier three and the top two of tier three would be promoted to tier 2 etc. That way, there would be more assurance that the "Big East" is not dragged down by bottom feeders. Smaller schools that have a string of quality years would be able to earn their way up to playing with the big boys - and would be a quality opponent for those big boys. If their success is not sustained, they'd be relegated again. For We'd be able to have teams like Davidson or Saint Louis in our conference without having to worry about the risk of adding them and seeing them fall off and become perennial bottom feeders.

It'd look something like this:

Tier One
Marquette, Georgetown, Villanova, Providence, Butler, St. John's, Creighton, Xavier, Seton Hall, DePaul

Tier Two
St. Joseph's, Saint Louis, Dayton, Davidson, Richmond, Drexel, Siena, Valparaiso, George Washington, La Salle

You could go to as many tiers as you want.

Tier Three
Detroit Mercy, Iona, St. Bonaventure, Belmont, Bucknell, Boston U., Holy Cross, Northeastern, Bradley, Hofstra

Tier Four
Evansville, Drake, Rider, Duquesne, Niagara, Rider, Loyola (IL), Fairfield, Manhattan, Canisius, Loyola (MD)

Etc.

Schools in the lower tiers (smaller schools) would have motivation to improve their programs because they have a chance to be promoted to the big times, recruits would be told that by their junior or senior year, they might have the opportunity to play ball in a marquee conference on national television. Teams in the upper tiers wouldn't have to be bogged down in schedule strength by playing crummy teams (teams like Seton Hall and DePaul would be relegated, and replaced with teams that are having a string of strong years such as Davidson or Saint Louis.) This would be a solution to maintaining a powerful conference every year by "farming" the mid-majors for the most competitive opponents.  

Each tier would still be it's own conference, and thus would still garner an auto-bid. Even a fourth tier conference would be as strong or better than the SWAC or the MEAC. Tier two would be essentially as competitive as the A-10 is now - not quite as much power at the top, but a lot less crud on the bottom - the Fordhams would drop.

Some out of conference inter-tier play could be arranged too, to maintain rivalries or whatever.

I realize that their are obvious drawbacks, but it's kind of fun to thing about.

Quote from: Terror Skink on July 18, 2013, 10:18:19 AM
I've come full circle on this.  I don't mind public universities as long as they give some sort of "pledge" not to add football programs. 

Villanova, Georgetown, and Butler football aren't going away, and frankly, don't hurt basketball one bit.

Quote from: DFW HOYA on July 18, 2013, 03:04:28 PM
Villanova, Georgetown, and Butler football aren't going away, and frankly, don't hurt basketball one bit.

They don't hurt basketball one bit because they are not planning to go "big time" and switch to Division I (or whatever the top division is calling itself these days). If they did that, by necessity, they'd have to leave the Big East and join a power football conference to have access to real TV money.

Quote from: MU82 on July 18, 2013, 03:07:37 PM
They don't hurt basketball one bit because they are not planning to go "big time" and switch to Division I (or whatever the top division is calling itself these days). If they did that, by necessity, they'd have to leave the Big East and join a power football conference to have access to real TV money.

Right.  Both are FCS and Georgetown is non-scholarship (I think).  If VCU wants to do that I have no problem.

Quote from: Terror Skink on July 18, 2013, 10:18:19 AM
I've come full circle on this.  I don't mind public universities as long as they give some sort of "pledge" not to add football programs.  I think VCU would be a much better choice than Richmond. 

So my vote is for VCU and St. Louis. 

How one sees himself is telling...


(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ3gmWfLKfDoNA9VnWA20AoENMe_kvrQu3aIemggt9ppeiRphC0ZQ)

Just say NO to VCU

Quote from: Terror Skink on July 18, 2013, 10:54:14 AM
UMASS just joined the MAC for football.  They aren't dropping it anytime soon.

Oh I know, there has been some resistance to it but they are kind of at the point of no return. Was just using them as an example versus VCU.

Unless Gonzaga or Notre Dame suddenly want in, I'd rather just wait AT LEAST 5 years to see which programs rise up in the new alignment. No one would have thought Butler 10 years ago. It's not impossible for a Drake, Siena, Davidson, or even Duquesne to be attractive in 5-10 years (though Duquesne gonna have to get an arena bigger than 4k).

Quote from: keefe on July 18, 2013, 04:36:02 PM
How one sees himself is telling...

(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ3gmWfLKfDoNA9VnWA20AoENMe_kvrQu3aIemggt9ppeiRphC0ZQ)

Just say NO to VCU

+1000000000. All they talk about is their one year while belittling other programs with much better history like Providence and SJU.

Quote from: keefe on July 18, 2013, 04:36:02 PM
How one sees himself is telling...


(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ3gmWfLKfDoNA9VnWA20AoENMe_kvrQu3aIemggt9ppeiRphC0ZQ)

Just say NO to VCU

Shortly after their blowout of Butler last year, they had "havoc" printed on their warm up shirts.  What a joke.  First game they wore the shirts, they got their a$$ handed to them LOL.

http://scores.espn.go.com/ncb/recap?gameId=330690218

Quote from: Aughnanure on July 18, 2013, 04:41:40 PM
+1000000000. All they talk about is their one year while belittling other programs with much better history like Providence and SJU.

As many have said on this forum over and over and over again, history is nice and all, but at what point does it start to lose meaning if you're a perennial bottom-feeder now (not necessarily referring to Providence and SJU, but you get my point)?

And who exactly at VCU is "belittling other programs"? I will be a Warrior fanatic until the day I die but Marquette has gone no further in the tournament than VCU since 1977. How do you think Gonzaga viewed their rapid acension not too long ago? I'd be willing to bet that their fans suffered from the same delusions as Rams fanatics.

It all comes with a rise in status. There have been plenty of arguments on MUScoop about the banners we hang and how they compare to the blue bloods. How is what VCU is doing any different? Context is key. The sentiment held by yourself and others is really starting to look like nothing more than a bias against public insitutions.

And let me be clear once again: I wouldn't be surprised at all if VCU wasn't picked up by the BE in the near future. In fact, I would completely understand if they were never offered a spot. For me, though, it is more about the fact that they are an unknown commodity (along with the size issue), rather than some baseless crap about "flagship status", commuter numbers, the potential for I-A football (which will never happen) and what types of banners they hang.

Quote from: ResidentBrown on July 18, 2013, 01:34:49 PM
This is an absolutely unrealistic idea, but what if the Big East formed some sort of multi-tiered league of the eastern private schools that works similar to the EPL and the lower leagues in English soccer. The top ten teams are the "Big East", and there would be several tiers below those ten. The bottom two schools would be relegated every year to the lower league and the top two of the lower league would be promoted to the top ten every year. The bottom two of tier 2 would drop to tier three and the top two of tier three would be promoted to tier 2 etc. That way, there would be more assurance that the "Big East" is not dragged down by bottom feeders. Smaller schools that have a string of quality years would be able to earn their way up to playing with the big boys - and would be a quality opponent for those big boys. If their success is not sustained, they'd be relegated again. For We'd be able to have teams like Davidson or Saint Louis in our conference without having to worry about the risk of adding them and seeing them fall off and become perennial bottom feeders.

It'd look something like this:

Tier One
Marquette, Georgetown, Villanova, Providence, Butler, St. John's, Creighton, Xavier, Seton Hall, DePaul

Tier Two
St. Joseph's, Saint Louis, Dayton, Davidson, Richmond, Drexel, Siena, Valparaiso, George Washington, La Salle

You could go to as many tiers as you want.

Tier Three
Detroit Mercy, Iona, St. Bonaventure, Belmont, Bucknell, Boston U., Holy Cross, Northeastern, Bradley, Hofstra

Tier Four
Evansville, Drake, Rider, Duquesne, Niagara, Rider, Loyola (IL), Fairfield, Manhattan, Canisius, Loyola (MD)

Etc.

Schools in the lower tiers (smaller schools) would have motivation to improve their programs because they have a chance to be promoted to the big times, recruits would be told that by their junior or senior year, they might have the opportunity to play ball in a marquee conference on national television. Teams in the upper tiers wouldn't have to be bogged down in schedule strength by playing crummy teams (teams like Seton Hall and DePaul would be relegated, and replaced with teams that are having a string of strong years such as Davidson or Saint Louis.) This would be a solution to maintaining a powerful conference every year by "farming" the mid-majors for the most competitive opponents.  

Each tier would still be it's own conference, and thus would still garner an auto-bid. Even a fourth tier conference would be as strong or better than the SWAC or the MEAC. Tier two would be essentially as competitive as the A-10 is now - not quite as much power at the top, but a lot less crud on the bottom - the Fordhams would drop.

Some out of conference inter-tier play could be arranged too, to maintain rivalries or whatever.

I realize that their are obvious drawbacks, but it's kind of fun to thing about.

Its not a terrible idea. I don't know what NCAA regulations say about changing "conferences" that often. Because even if its all the Big East, you are still essentially changing conferences because if you are relegated or promoted you have completely different opponents the next year. If they could find a way for it to be OK with the NCAA and not mess up things like autobids I'd be all for it.

I think you'd still want different names for each Tier, so you could tell them apart.

Tier 1 could stay Big East, Tier 2 could be Atlantic Ten, Tier 3 Eastern Athletic Conference or something like that, etc. And then you have a new name for the whole alliance structure of all the conferences, like the Eastern Conferences Basketball Federation or something


The difficult thing is that obviously wouldnt carry over to other sports, so your men's basketball opponents would not be the same as women's or soccer or whatever, unless you used the exact same structure for all sports.

But I like it. Instead of the media and markets decide who is in a "high major" conference, you just let the schools duke it out and earn the right to be there. Tradition can dictate where you start but if you are Depaul you better get your crap together real quick.

Quote from: ssnakes9 on July 18, 2013, 08:01:50 PM
As many have said on this forum over and over and over again, history is nice and all, but at what point does it start to lose meaning if you're a perennial bottom-feeder now (not necessarily referring to Providence and SJU, but you get my point)?

And who exactly at VCU is "belittling other programs"? I will be a Warrior fanatic until the day I die but Marquette has gone no further in the tournament than VCU since 1977. How do you think Gonzaga viewed their rapid acension not too long ago? I'd be willing to bet that their fans suffered from the same delusions as Rams fanatics.

It all comes with a rise in status. There have been plenty of arguments on MUScoop about the banners we hang and how they compare to the blue bloods. How is what VCU is doing any different? Context is key. The sentiment held by yourself and others is really starting to look like nothing more than a bias against public insitutions.

And let me be clear once again: I wouldn't be surprised at all if VCU wasn't picked up by the BE in the near future. In fact, I would completely understand if they were never offered a spot. For me, though, it is more about the fact that they are an unknown commodity (along with the size issue), rather than some baseless crap about "flagship status", commuter numbers, the potential for I-A football (which will never happen) and what types of banners they hang.

First off, I dont think you're reading VCU forums if you don't see the crap they throw at even schools like Villanova. Secondly, ONE second weekend appearance. Ever. So yes Marquette has gone further.

And flagship status is not "crap". I'll give you the football and commuter stuff is crap.

Now if we for some reason go to 16 then VCU becomes attractive, along with Wichita St. But at 12 I think we can still add to this conference and maintain a congruous identity.

VCU announces 5 year plan to raise athletic profile


VCU Releases Five-Year Strategic Plan Aimed At Raising School's Athletic Profile

Published July 19, 2013

McLaughlin's first priority is to build a new basketball practice facility

VCU AD Ed McLaughlin on Wednesday released a five-year strategic plan that he "hopes will make the Rams a major player in Division I in all sports but football," according to Tim Pearrell of the RICHMOND TIMES-DISPATCH. McLaughlin believes that the plan will "help the Rams continue to build on the momentum and become 'an elite-level' program." The plan "includes eight themes: strengthening VCU's Division I position; enriching the student-athlete experience; expecting academic success; providing championship quality facilities; growing athletics revenues; sustaining fiscal responsibility; embracing equity and diversity; and constructing an optimal Division I infrastructure." However, "adding football is not part of the plan." New facilities, upgrades and money "will be required." McLaughlin's "first priority remains getting a privately funded basketball practice facility built." He said that the school "has some gifts that need to be finalized" and hopes to have the $14-16M needed for the facility "by the end of the summer." Other priorities "include possible expansion" of the basketball program's Siegel Center. McLaughlin said that expansion "depends on what a study says can be done 'without losing the environment.'" He added that the athletics department had a "small surplus this year and he expects the budget to be balanced in the future." VCU had a $981,848 deficit in '11-12 (RICHMOND TIMES-DISPATCH, 7/18).

Good find Chicos.

Snap them up.  If the goal is to be the best, non-football conference in the country, VCU certainly fits that mold...and is perfect geographically. 

Quote from: Terror Skink on July 19, 2013, 12:51:16 PM
Good find Chicos.

Snap them up.  If the goal is to be the best, non-football conference in the country, VCU certainly fits that mold...and is perfect geographically. 

Agree as we'll.

Quote from: Bleuteaux on July 19, 2013, 09:36:40 AM
Its not a terrible idea. I don't know what NCAA regulations say about changing "conferences" that often. Because even if its all the Big East, you are still essentially changing conferences because if you are relegated or promoted you have completely different opponents the next year. If they could find a way for it to be OK with the NCAA and not mess up things like autobids I'd be all for it.

I think you'd still want different names for each Tier, so you could tell them apart.

Tier 1 could stay Big East, Tier 2 could be Atlantic Ten, Tier 3 Eastern Athletic Conference or something like that, etc. And then you have a new name for the whole alliance structure of all the conferences, like the Eastern Conferences Basketball Federation or something


The difficult thing is that obviously wouldnt carry over to other sports, so your men's basketball opponents would not be the same as women's or soccer or whatever, unless you used the exact same structure for all sports.

But I like it. Instead of the media and markets decide who is in a "high major" conference, you just let the schools duke it out and earn the right to be there. Tradition can dictate where you start but if you are Depaul you better get your crap together real quick.

You could have all of the sports as part of the same super-federation, each sport working independently in it's promotion/relegation system. The Fairleigh Dickinson fencing team can talk smack to their basketball team about being stuck in tier five.

And I agree, it would be important to create titles for the lower leagues that give them some sort of dignity and credibility, instead of simply "Tier #". You could even give them the names of the old leagues that would implode under this system such as the Atlantic 10, the Metro Atlantic Athletic Conference, or the Patriot League.

I say let the performance dictate the quality of conference these teams play in. For example, Leeds United was once one of the best teams in all of Europe. They had their moment in the sun, but now they stink, so they are in a lower league. Schools have the chance to burst upwards into the spotlight and gain some national attention while they are good - essentially raising the profile of the entire school and gaining some bandwagon fans along the way. Once they fall off, they drop back down.

One thing people are overlooking with VCU is their potential for future success. This is not a one hit wonder. Since 2007 they have been to the tournament 5 times, including the last 3 years. They followed up their final four run with another tournament appearance, and the year after that they moved up to the Atlantic 10, dominated it, and earned a four seed. By comparison, what did we do after our final four run? We missed the tournament...TWICE and then made two first round exits. The Big East still welcomed us and we all know what we've done since then.

Shaka Smart is one of the best, if not the best coach of the next generation of coaches. Boeheim, Coach K, Pitino, Williams will all be retiring soon (and Calipari will be kicked out...god willing). Coaches are what elevate programs, not players. Smart has already turned down a blue blood job and I believe he will not leave VCU until North Carolina or Duke come calling. He has the ability to turn VCU into as much of a tournament mainstay as we are.

Smart brought in a great class this year with all four stars and high three stars. He already has a 4 star committed for next season. Chicos made a great find with their commitment to improving athletics over the next five years (we won't get that from SLU). VCU is going up and we want to be on the ground floor.

People pay to see great basketball and that is what VCU can provide for us. To turn our noses up at them because "they don't have that strong of a history" or "they're a bad institutional fit" or "they are thinking about adding football...one day...maybe...but probably not" (which is funny since three of our current members already have football) would be a mistake.

Unless we get Notre Dame to bite, Gonzaga to cross the country, or UCONN (or a simlar institution) to drop FBS football, VCU should be our absolute number one priority.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 19, 2013, 12:49:05 PM
VCU announces 5 year plan to raise athletic profile


VCU Releases Five-Year Strategic Plan Aimed At Raising School's Athletic Profile

Published July 19, 2013

McLaughlin's first priority is to build a new basketball practice facility

VCU AD Ed McLaughlin on Wednesday released a five-year strategic plan that he "hopes will make the Rams a major player in Division I in all sports but football," according to Tim Pearrell of the RICHMOND TIMES-DISPATCH. McLaughlin believes that the plan will "help the Rams continue to build on the momentum and become 'an elite-level' program." The plan "includes eight themes: strengthening VCU's Division I position; enriching the student-athlete experience; expecting academic success; providing championship quality facilities; growing athletics revenues; sustaining fiscal responsibility; embracing equity and diversity; and constructing an optimal Division I infrastructure." However, "adding football is not part of the plan." New facilities, upgrades and money "will be required." McLaughlin's "first priority remains getting a privately funded basketball practice facility built." He said that the school "has some gifts that need to be finalized" and hopes to have the $14-16M needed for the facility "by the end of the summer." Other priorities "include possible expansion" of the basketball program's Siegel Center. McLaughlin said that expansion "depends on what a study says can be done 'without losing the environment.'" He added that the athletics department had a "small surplus this year and he expects the budget to be balanced in the future." VCU had a $981,848 deficit in '11-12 (RICHMOND TIMES-DISPATCH, 7/18).

I am happy they have a plan for greatness but VCU is simply not what we should want in a conference partner. I am from northern VA and I know that VCU is, at best, the sixth public college option in the Commonwealth. They certainly rank behind UVA, CWM, VPI, JMU, and GMU in terms of reputation and preference. The only public uni I applied to in VA was CWM though I thought about UVA. The rest were never a consideration.

Chico, would the Pac 12 consider admitting UC Irvine, Davis, or SB? Fine schools but not the same as Cal or UCLA. A good Bear Republic comparison for VCU might be SD State. They've enjoyed success of late under Fischer but that doesn't mean the Pac 12 is ever going to call. And the culture of the Cal State system is markedly different than the UC System...for the worse.   

Quote from: Analytical Eagle on July 19, 2013, 11:56:59 PM
One thing people are overlooking with VCU is their potential for future success. This is not a one hit wonder. Since 2007 they have been to the tournament 5 times, including the last 3 years. They followed up their final four run with another tournament appearance, and the year after that they moved up to the Atlantic 10, dominated it, and earned a four seed. By comparison, what did we do after our final four run? We missed the tournament...TWICE and then made two first round exits. The Big East still welcomed us and we all know what we've done since then.

Shaka Smart is one of the best, if not the best coach of the next generation of coaches. Boeheim, Coach K, Pitino, Williams will all be retiring soon (and Calipari will be kicked out...god willing). Coaches are what elevate programs, not players. Smart has already turned down a blue blood job and I believe he will not leave VCU until North Carolina or Duke come calling. He has the ability to turn VCU into as much of a tournament mainstay as we are.

Smart brought in a great class this year with all four stars and high three stars. He already has a 4 star committed for next season. Chicos made a great find with their commitment to improving athletics over the next five years (we won't get that from SLU). VCU is going up and we want to be on the ground floor.

People pay to see great basketball and that is what VCU can provide for us. To turn our noses up at them because "they don't have that strong of a history" or "they're a bad institutional fit" or "they are thinking about adding football...one day...maybe...but probably not" (which is funny since three of our current members already have football) would be a mistake.

Unless we get Notre Dame to bite, Gonzaga to cross the country, or UCONN (or a simlar institution) to drop FBS football, VCU should be our absolute number one priority.

I disagree with the SLU part.  They already have a new $80 million dollar facility.  They will continue their recent few year success this year, and moving forward.  They also have Richard Chaifetz, a big donor and regular courtside attendee, and some things SLU didn't have in the past.  Their school prez, who has long been known to be their obstacle, announced his future retirement, and will be replaced. Times have changed there.

SLU already has some successful current, recent, and historical success in some of the other non-revenue sports.  i.e. they were #8 national seed in soccer last year, and will have better team this year,(historically one of all time great programs)  a good baseball coach with developing program, recent NCAA appearances, a very good womens volleyball team/coach until she was scooped up by another program. 

Quote from: keefe on July 20, 2013, 04:42:31 AM

I am happy they have a plan for greatness but VCU is simply not what we should want in a conference partner. I am from northern VA and I know that VCU is, at best, the sixth public college option in the Commonwealth. They certainly rank behind UVA, CWM, VPI, JMU, and GMU in terms of reputation and preference. The only public uni I applied to in VA was CWM though I thought about UVA. The rest were never a consideration.

Chico, would the Pac 12 consider admitting UC Irvine, Davis, or SB? Fine schools but not the same as Cal or UCLA. A good Bear Republic comparison for VCU might be SD State. They've enjoyed success of late under Fischer but that doesn't mean the Pac 12 is ever going to call. And the culture of the Cal State system is markedly different than the UC System...for the worse.   

I guess I would start by saying I merely posted the VCU article because it was in that morning's SBD which I read religiously.  Thought it was interesting since the school has been brought up here many times.  Whether they are ideal for the Big East down the road, I have no idea.  Any school like that I would be worried how much is attributable to their coach and can they do it with different coaches.  The investment they are making certainly shows some commitment.

On your Pac 12 question, no that conference wouldn't take any of those schools mentioned because they don't have football.  Would a basketball only conference like Big East take VCU, sure. 

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 20, 2013, 11:50:29 AM
I guess I would start by saying I merely posted the VCU article because it was in that morning's SBD which I read religiously.  Thought it was interesting since the school has been brought up here many times.  Whether they are ideal for the Big East down the road, I have no idea.  Any school like that I would be worried how much is attributable to their coach and can they do it with different coaches.  The investment they are making certainly shows some commitment.

On your Pac 12 question, no that conference wouldn't take any of those schools mentioned because they don't have football.  Would a basketball only conference like Big East take VCU, sure. 

If we take VCU we are taking the 6th or 7th best regarded campus in the Commonwealth of Virginia. From a branding stand point that is a terrible mistake.

Quote from: keefe on July 20, 2013, 03:29:08 PM
If we take VCU we are taking the 6th or 7th best regarded campus in the Commonwealth of Virginia. From a branding stand point that is a terrible mistake.

It's cute that you still think that matters.

Quote from: Terror Skink on July 20, 2013, 03:31:19 PM

It's cute that you still think that matters.

It's cute that you don't understand brand equity. People in Washington DC judge you on what school you went to. It is a fact of life and it matters. If you don't know that then you are very naïve.

Tell someone you went to UVA or CWM and you get a very different response than if you say you went to ODU or VCU. You are judged by the company you keep and that is a factor in branding. 

Quote from: keefe on July 20, 2013, 03:29:08 PM
If we take VCU we are taking the 6th or 7th best regarded campus in the Commonwealth of Virginia. From a branding stand point that is a terrible mistake.

I get where you are coming from, but I would wager the brand equity comes from the success of the basketball programs, not the campus, at least for this exercise. Plus, we already have some campuses that fit that mold I would think.  Where would you rank DePaul for state of Illinois?  

In terms of the 6th or 7th best in Virgina, whom were you thinking are ahead of them?  More of a curiousity question than anything.

Uva
Va Tech
Richmond?
George Mason
William and Mary?

Quote from: Analytical Eagle on July 19, 2013, 11:56:59 PM


Unless we get Notre Dame to bite, Gonzaga to cross the country, or UCONN (or a simlar institution) to drop FBS football, VCU should be our absolute number one priority.

Funny. Maybe they'll just demolish their top 25 football practice facility and pull the plug on a program they have invested many millions of dollars in over the last 10 years. UConn will find a spot in a top conference; they wont be in the AAC forever.

Besides, what makes you think they would even be interested in the Big East? They are a far superior program compared to any of the current BE members. Second place is light years away.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 20, 2013, 04:14:58 PM
I get where you are coming from, but I would wager the brand equity comes from the success of the basketball programs, not the campus, at least for this exercise. Plus, we already have some campuses that fit that mold I would think.  Where would you rank DePaul for state of Illinois? 

In terms of the 6th or 7th best in Virgina, whom were you thinking are ahead of them?  More of a curiousity question than anything.

Uva
Va Tech
Richmond?
George Mason
William and Mary?

As far as public universities in Virginia:

UVa, Va Tech, W&M, Old Dominion, James Madison...

Quote from: Atticus on July 20, 2013, 04:26:37 PM
Funny. Maybe they'll just demolish their top 25 football practice facility and pull the plug on a program they have invested many millions of dollars in over the last 10 years. UConn will find a spot in a top conference; they wont be in the AAC forever.

Besides, what makes you think they would even be interested in the Big East? They are a far superior program compared to any of the current BE members. Second place is light years away.

I see this argument often.  But the facts may indicate that they are better off dropping DI football sooner rather than later.  Yes they already invested millions of dollars.  However, that investment failed to get them a seat at the big table.  There is no motive for one of the big conferences to take them...so they also have no mechanism at the moment to make it to the big leagues.
In the AAC, their revenue projections for football are dismal, to the point that on the revenue side they would be better off in the Big East.  Meanwhile, they are incurring large costs associated with maintaining a football program.  Essentially they are pissing away money at a lost cause.

In my opinion they are better off just eating their initial investment and stopping the blood loss.  If they maintain a DI program, they better have assurances that they are going to get in the Big10 or ACC, otherwise they are making a poor business decision.

Quote from: forgetful on July 20, 2013, 04:44:23 PM
I see this argument often.  But the facts may indicate that they are better off dropping DI football sooner rather than later.  Yes they already invested millions of dollars.  However, that investment failed to get them a seat at the big table.  There is no motive for one of the big conferences to take them...so they also have no mechanism at the moment to make it to the big leagues.
In the AAC, their revenue projections for football are dismal, to the point that on the revenue side they would be better off in the Big East.  Meanwhile, they are incurring large costs associated with maintaining a football program.  Essentially they are pissing away money at a lost cause.

In my opinion they are better off just eating their initial investment and stopping the blood loss.  If they maintain a DI program, they better have assurances that they are going to get in the Big10 or ACC, otherwise they are making a poor business decision.

So what is the Connecticut tax payer's threshold in terms of subsidizing a money losing football program annually? Maybe its many more millions for many more years... Private schools have a tighter budget.

If states dont spend every penny it gets from federal programs, those states will generally receive less the next year. Recipients of state tax dollars are generally treated the same way. Spend away. If you dont live in Connecticut, you shouldnt really care.

Quote from: Atticus on July 20, 2013, 04:26:37 PM
Funny. Maybe they'll just demolish their top 25 football practice facility and pull the plug on a program they have invested many millions of dollars in over the last 10 years. UConn will find a spot in a top conference; they wont be in the AAC forever.

Besides, what makes you think they would even be interested in the Big East? They are a far superior program compared to any of the current BE members. Second place is light years away.

Sunk cost fallacy anyone???

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 20, 2013, 04:14:58 PM
I get where you are coming from, but I would wager the brand equity comes from the success of the basketball programs, not the campus, at least for this exercise. Plus, we already have some campuses that fit that mold I would think.  Where would you rank DePaul for state of Illinois?  

In terms of the 6th or 7th best in Virgina, whom were you thinking are ahead of them?  More of a curiousity question than anything.

Uva
Va Tech
Richmond?
George Mason
William and Mary?

My list is only for the public universities in the Commonwealth. I would say that in terms of academic reputation Virginians would place the in the following order:

CWM
UVA
VPI
VMI
JMU
GMU
ODU
VCU

There are many fine private schools in Virginia including Richmond, Washington and Lee, Sweetbriar, Randolph-Macon, Hampden-Sydney...

The bottom line is that VCU does not have the best rep in VA, the NCR, mid-Atlantic, or the Near South. Marquette vs Georgetown is a statement. But then so too is Marquette vs VCU. Only one of them is necessarily positive.

Quote from: Terror Skink on July 20, 2013, 04:39:45 PM

As far as public universities in Virginia:

UVa, Va Tech, W&M, Old Dominion, James Madison...

I can't imagine three of those ever being considered for our conference.  The other two play major football so that's out as well. 

Quote from: AWegrzyn17 on July 20, 2013, 05:17:40 PM
Sunk cost fallacy anyone???

Yup yup.  I was going to write this, but you beat me to it.  Stadium, facilities cost, etc. are all spilled milk.  Reoptimize from today going forward.

Im not sure that UConn gets into the ACC for a while.  The ACC knows that UConn is too far for the Big XII and I think the Big Ten is a stretch.  ACC takes UConn only when it has to, as a last resort.  Oh yea, plus there's Boston College using whatever pull it has to block them from joining.  Having said all that, if football is a money pit already, it will only be more so after Rutgers and Lville leave.

But I agree with the original poster--UConn probably would be the best program overall in the Big East, and I would love to have them.

Quote from: keefe on July 20, 2013, 05:23:20 PM
My list is only for the public universities in the Commonwealth. I would say that in terms of academic reputation Virginians would place the in the following order:

CWM
UVA
VPI
VMI
JMU
GMU
ODU
VCU

There are many fine private schools in Virginia including Richmond, Washington and Lee, Sweetbriar, Randolph-Macon, Hampden-Sydney...

The bottom line is that VCU does not have the best rep in VA, the NCR, mid-Atlantic, or the Near South. Marquette vs Georgetown is a statement. But then so too is Marquette vs VCU. Only one of them is necessarily positive.

I agree there are many fine schools, but I guess I was trying to think of it in terms of who could also compete from a basketball perspective.  I'm intimately familiar with VMI, for example, as that was a school I looked at attending.  My bro-in-law teaches at W&M and his daughter attends University of Mary Washington out there.  Whether it is W&L, W&M, VMI, ODU, etc, none of them can compete at this level in hoops.  My perspective was more on the competition front.

Where do you think DePaul ranks in Illinois?  Or for that matter, St. John's in NY, Butler in Indiana, etc?  If we were to go as deep in each state to look at schools that don't have a shot to compete athletically, many of them would be further down the list as well.  IMO.  Cornell, NYU, Columbia, Syracuse, Colgate, RPI, Binghamton, West Point, Vassar, Barnard, Union, Hamilton, Skidmore, etc, etc.  Just as I would rank Lawrence over MU.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 20, 2013, 06:43:20 PM
I agree there are many fine schools, but I guess I was trying to think of it in terms of who could also compete from a basketball perspective.  I'm intimately familiar with VMI, for example, as that was a school I looked at attending.  My bro-in-law teaches at W&M and his daughter attends University of Mary Washington out there.  Whether it is W&L, W&M, VMI, ODU, etc, none of them can compete at this level in hoops.  My perspective was more on the competition front.

Where do you think DePaul ranks in Illinois?  Or for that matter, St. John's in NY, Butler in Indiana, etc?  If we were to go as deep in each state to look at schools that don't have a shot to compete athletically, many of them would be further down the list as well.  IMO.  Cornell, NYU, Columbia, Syracuse, Colgate, RPI, Binghamton, West Point, Vassar, Barnard, Union, Hamilton, Skidmore, etc, etc.  Just as I would rank Lawrence over MU.

You have eliminated the most important variable which is the culture, structure and mission of the university. That is the commonality linking the Big East schools, including Butler. VCU is a very different beast.

My oldest played LAX at Middlebury. When you look at the NESCAC schools they share structure, geography, mission, and heritage.  I do not think the NESCAC would ever consider adding SUNY Binghampton as a member as it is an altogether different institution. If the Big East is ever to establish a unique identity and vest value in its brand then member must be a significant consideration. Adding the 8th best public university in VA does not fit that profile in any way.

As for those who cite the recent success of VCU I quote George S. Patton:

"For over a thousand years, Roman conquerors returning from the wars enjoyed the honor of a triumph - a tumultuous parade. In the procession came trumpeters and musicians and strange animals from the conquered territories, together with carts laden with treasure and captured armaments. The conqueror rode in a triumphal chariot, the dazed prisoners walking in chains before him. Sometimes his children, robed in white, stood with him in the chariot, or rode the trace horses. A slave stood behind the conqueror, holding a golden crown, and whispering in his ear a warning: That all glory is fleeting."

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 20, 2013, 06:43:20 PM
Where do you think DePaul ranks in Illinois?  Or for that matter, St. John's in NY, Butler in Indiana, etc?  If we were to go as deep in each state to look at schools that don't have a shot to compete athletically, many of them would be further down the list as well.  IMO.  Cornell, NYU, Columbia, Syracuse, Colgate, RPI, Binghamton, West Point, Vassar, Barnard, Union, Hamilton, Skidmore, etc, etc.  Just as I would rank Lawrence over MU.

Again, huh?

Quote from: real chili 83 on July 20, 2013, 09:57:43 PM
Again, huh?

Which part?

Quote from: keefe on July 20, 2013, 07:38:50 PM
You have eliminated the most important variable which is the culture, structure and mission of the university. That is the commonality linking the Big East schools, including Butler. VCU is a very different beast.

My oldest played LAX at Middlebury. When you look at the NESCAC schools they share structure, geography, mission, and heritage.  I do not think the NESCAC would ever consider adding SUNY Binghampton as a member as it is an altogether different institution. If the Big East is ever to establish a unique identity and vest value in its brand then member must be a significant consideration. Adding the 8th best public university in VA does not fit that profile in any way.

You have yet to tell me *why* this matters.  We live in an era where Vanderbilt shares conference membership with Mississippi State...where Stanford shares with Utah.  Hell, Marquette has been in a conference with Cincinnati for much of the last 20 years.

The Ivy League and the NESCAC are exceptions.  The purpose behind the BE IMO is to gather the best non-football schools in the east and the midwest.  VCU fits that mold.  No one cares that (in your opinion) they are the 6th or 7th best school in Virginia. 

As for fleeting success, you could say that about any school - like Creighton, Xavier and Butler.  And it is a lot easier to maintain success as a 20,000 public university v. a 8,000 private one.

Quote from: Terror Skink on July 21, 2013, 07:15:50 AM


You have yet to tell me *why* this matters.  We live in an era where Vanderbilt shares conference membership with Mississippi State...where Stanford shares with Utah.  Hell, Marquette has been in a conference with Cincinnati for much of the last 20 years.

The Ivy League and the NESCAC are exceptions.  The purpose behind the BE IMO is to gather the best non-football schools in the east and the midwest.  VCU fits that mold.  No one cares that (in your opinion) they are the 6th or 7th best school in Virginia. 

As for fleeting success, you could say that about any school - like Creighton, Xavier and Butler.  And it is a lot easier to maintain success as a 20,000 public university v. a 8,000 private one.

It might not "matter" to us but from reading articles and quotes from the Presidents of the 10 private schools, it "matters" to them.

Quote from: Jet915 on July 21, 2013, 09:19:08 AM
It might not "matter" to us but from reading articles and quotes from the Presidents of the 10 private schools, it "matters" to them.

No kidding.

I'm just saying it shouldn't.  The "harm" caused by public institutions only exists when football is involved.

EDIT TO ADD:  Let me say this, if keefe is right that Gonzaga was approached for membership, and VCU wasn't, it really calls me to question what exactly they are doing and why.

Quote from: Terror Skink on July 21, 2013, 09:29:00 AM

No kidding.

I'm just saying it shouldn't.  The "harm" caused by public institutions only exists when football is involved.

EDIT TO ADD:  Let me say this, if keefe is right that Gonzaga was approached for membership, and VCU wasn't, it really calls me to question what exactly they are doing and why.

Haven't kept up with this thread, but what makes you think VCU has staying power once Shaka leaves? I'm nervous enough about Butler.

Quote from: Atticus on July 20, 2013, 05:01:08 PM
So what is the Connecticut tax payer's threshold in terms of subsidizing a money losing football program annually? Maybe its many more millions for many more years... Private schools have a tighter budget.

If states dont spend every penny it gets from federal programs, those states will generally receive less the next year. Recipients of state tax dollars are generally treated the same way. Spend away. If you dont live in Connecticut, you shouldnt really care.

Since it is tax payer money they should be even more prudent on making the correct business solution.  There are a lot of places that money can be allocated. A failing football team should never be on the tax rolls.

I assure you, if you asked the average Connecticut citizen, if they would rather have lower taxes, or a crappy football team at UCONN, they would take the lower taxes.

Quote from: AWegrzyn17 on July 21, 2013, 12:25:23 PM
Haven't kept up with this thread, but what makes you think VCU has staying power once Shaka leaves? I'm nervous enough about Butler.

Haven't kept up with the thread either, but VCU and Butler have shown a good track record of coaching hires over the past 10-15 years. Butler especially has used their "Butler Way" to demonstrate an ability to repeatedly find good young coaches. VCU has done the same, though the man responsible for most of those hirings is gone now. I have faith that Butler will maintain at least a solid program until they prove otherwise. And VCU still has Smart. I don't think the Lakers will come calling any time soon.

Quote from: Terror Skink on July 21, 2013, 07:15:50 AM


You have yet to tell me *why* this matters.  We live in an era where Vanderbilt shares conference membership with Mississippi State...where Stanford shares with Utah.  Hell, Marquette has been in a conference with Cincinnati for much of the last 20 years.

The Ivy League and the NESCAC are exceptions.  The purpose behind the BE IMO is to gather the best non-football schools in the east and the midwest.  VCU fits that mold.  No one cares that (in your opinion) they are the 6th or 7th best school in Virginia. 

As for fleeting success, you could say that about any school - like Creighton, Xavier and Butler.  And it is a lot easier to maintain success as a 20,000 public university v. a 8,000 private one.

I strongly disagree with his analysis of school "desirability" in VA anyway. I have lived in Richmond for nearly 10 years. I attended high school here. Many of my friends currently attend highly-regarded universities such as UVA and William & Mary.

I graduated very near the top of my high school class. I say this not to boast, but to put some things in perspective. My college choice was UVA. After my freshman year, I decided to transfer to VCU due to the fact that it had a stronger program for my major (along with wanting to be closer to home).

None of my friends batted an eye. Including the ones at the public ivies. The most common response was "good for you man, VCU is an awesome choice."

Would this have been the case 10 years ago? Probably not. But VCU has made major strides since then. And as that article shows, they are dumping massive amounts of money into both academics and athletics. We are near, if not at, residential status now. We have very highly regarded science, engineering and art programs.

Not that it really matters, because this whole argument is silly, but here is how most high school students in VA view colleges these days, coming from someone who went through the system recently:

Tier 1: UVA, W&M
Tier 2: Virginia Tech, JMU
Tier 3: VCU, GMU, ODU
Tier 4: All others

VCU is absolutely not the "8th ranked" school in the state. Again, as I have said in earlier posts, I would understand completely if the BE wanted to maintain a brand image. What I would not agree with, however, is the exclusion of VCU for entirely subjective reasons.

Quote from: AWegrzyn17 on July 21, 2013, 12:25:23 PM
Haven't kept up with this thread, but what makes you think VCU has staying power once Shaka leaves? I'm nervous enough about Butler.

They won before him and they are obviously throwing a bunch of resources at the program.  They could still make a bad hire, but they can come back from it.

In addition to the information I presented in my previous post, I should also mention a link on the VCU strategic plan website:

http://www.future.vcu.edu/plan/plan/benchmarking.html

Notice the benchmark institutions that VCU is compared with. Louisville, USF and Cincinnati just to name a few. All schools that, at one point or another, Marquette felt comfortable associating with.

Quote from: ssnakes9 on July 21, 2013, 08:09:39 PM
In addition to the information I presented in my previous post, I should also mention a link on the VCU strategic plan website:

http://www.future.vcu.edu/plan/plan/benchmarking.html

Notice the benchmark institutions that VCU is compared with. Louisville, USF and Cincinnati just to name a few. All schools that, at one point or another, Marquette felt comfortable associating with.

. . . and with which Marquette would no longer wishes to be associated.  Cincinnati and USF being two who would have been glad to remain associated with Marquette.

Quote from: LittleMurs on July 21, 2013, 08:37:19 PM
. . . and with which Marquette would no longer wishes to be associated.  Cincinnati and USF being two who would have been glad to remain associated with Marquette.

They all play football...VCU doesn't.

Quote from: ssnakes9 on July 21, 2013, 08:09:39 PM
In addition to the information I presented in my previous post, I should also mention a link on the VCU strategic plan website:

http://www.future.vcu.edu/plan/plan/benchmarking.html

Notice the benchmark institutions that VCU is compared with. Louisville, USF and Cincinnati just to name a few. All schools that, at one point or another, Marquette felt comfortable associating with.

Careful with benchmark institutions, they are often grossly not representative of where a university currently stands or can realistically attain.  That said, I know nothing about academics at VCU, and would have assumed it is a quality school, beyond that its all politics to get higher rankings. 

I would definitely agree with you in your statement that programs are important...sadly a lot look just at the school name and not the reputation of individual programs.

Quote from: brewcity77 on July 21, 2013, 01:17:38 PM
Haven't kept up with the thread either, but VCU and Butler have shown a good track record of coaching hires over the past 10-15 years. Butler especially has used their "Butler Way" to demonstrate an ability to repeatedly find good young coaches. VCU has done the same, though the man responsible for most of those hirings is gone now. I have faith that Butler will maintain at least a solid program until they prove otherwise. And VCU still has Smart. I don't think the Lakers will come calling any time soon.

The "Butler Way" is just a made-up phrase. Means nothing.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 20, 2013, 06:34:21 PM
I can't imagine three of those ever being considered for our conference.  The other two play major football so that's out as well. 

Yeah. VCU isn't 7th because we're not adding these teams by their academic standings.

That being said, adding a perennially 3rd to 6th best (i.e., fan support, money, etc) state school just isn't attractive to me. State schools naturally compete against other in-state public school and Virginia not only has one heavily-supported BCS school, but two that will forever put them ahead of all others in terms of students/money/alumni/state influence.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on July 20, 2013, 04:14:58 PM
I get where you are coming from, but I would wager the brand equity comes from the success of the basketball programs, not the campus, at least for this exercise. Plus, we already have some campuses that fit that mold I would think.  Where would you rank DePaul for state of Illinois?  

DePaul? 2nd in Illinois. And don't even mention the school that has never been to an NCAA tournament ever.

Quote from: Terror Skink on July 21, 2013, 05:56:59 PM

They won before him and they are obviously throwing a bunch of resources at the program.  They could still make a bad hire, but they can come back from it.

By "won before him" you mean winning in a crappy CAA, right? Cause it certainly doesn't mean NCAA winning.

Quote from: Aughnanure on July 22, 2013, 10:41:30 AM
By "won before him" you mean winning in a crappy CAA, right? Cause it certainly doesn't mean NCAA winning.

As they say, you can't spell NCAA without CAA.

Quote from: Aughnanure on July 22, 2013, 10:39:42 AM
DePaul? 2nd in Illinois. And don't even mention the school that has never been to an NCAA tournament ever.

2nd as in basketball success, or second as in academic prestige? Because UofI, Northwestern and University of Chicago are all more selective Depaul falls wayyy behind those. 

Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on July 22, 2013, 04:49:32 PM
2nd as in basketball success, or second as in academic prestige? Because UofI, Northwestern and University of Chicago are all more selective Depaul falls wayyy behind those.  

Since when are we talking about academic prestige? Most every school, incl UofI falls wayyy behind those two.

Quote from: Aughnanure on July 22, 2013, 05:02:54 PM
Since when are we talking about academic prestige? Most every school, incl UofI falls wayyy behind those two.

Well seeing as there's a ton of posts about acedemic prestige of Virginia schools I figured I'd double check.  But ya in terms of basketball I'd agree.  Though if we were to be talking about recent success I'd say SIU is no2 with 9 tournament appearances since 1990 and two sweet 16s beating out depaul's 4 first weekend knockouts, Bradley at least got a sweet 16 in there two appearances since then. So I'd argue Depaul is third or fourth now days. 

Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on July 22, 2013, 06:53:22 PM
Well seeing as there's a ton of posts about acedemic prestige of Virginia schools I figured I'd double check.  But ya in terms of basketball I'd agree.  Though if we were to be talking about recent success I'd say SIU is no2 with 9 tournament appearances since 1990 and two sweet 16s beating out depaul's 4 first weekend knockouts, Bradley at least got a sweet 16 in there two appearances since then. So I'd argue Depaul is third or fourth now days. 

Evidently, you totally missed the implosion of SIU's basketball program.  You might remember that Seton Hall's big center last year was a transfer from the SIU diaspora.

Quote from: Aughnanure on July 22, 2013, 10:39:42 AM
DePaul? 2nd in Illinois. And don't even mention the school that has never been to an NCAA tournament ever.

That was my point....it sounded like Keefe was putting reputation of academics in the mix.  Using that criteria, I would have DePaul way down the list....so we already do it in our league.  Thus, adding VCU isn't without precedent considering a number of schools already in the conference are not in the top 5 necessarily in their state.  MU yes.  Georgetown yes.  Nova...doubtful (good school, but behind Penn, Penn State, Bucknell, Lehigh, etc.  St. John's..hell no.  DePaul...not close.  Creighton yes.  Butler....doubtful.  Providence....maybe.  Seton Hall...no.

That's why I wasn't quite sure where the topic was going.

Quote from: LittleMurs on July 22, 2013, 07:07:13 PM
Evidently, you totally missed the implosion of SIU's basketball program.  You might remember that Seton Hall's big center last year was a transfer from the SIU diaspora.

Clearly I did but I wouldn't exactly call what Depaul's been doing sustaining a great program. People my age will at least remember Southern from filling out our brackets a good amount of our lives whereas we only know Depaul as the but of jokes not very different than Loyola Chicago in that their students are bragging about stuff none were even alive for. 

If Grambling drops football now perhaps their game at the BC can be a tryout of sorts