New Addition to the Big East

[forgetful]

Funny. Maybe they'll just demolish their top 25 football practice facility and pull the plug on a program they have invested many millions of dollars in over the last 10 years. UConn will find a spot in a top conference; they wont be in the AAC forever.

Besides, what makes you think they would even be interested in the Big East? They are a far superior program compared to any of the current BE members. Second place is light years away.

I see this argument often.  But the facts may indicate that they are better off dropping DI football sooner rather than later.  Yes they already invested millions of dollars.  However, that investment failed to get them a seat at the big table.  There is no motive for one of the big conferences to take them...so they also have no mechanism at the moment to make it to the big leagues.
In the AAC, their revenue projections for football are dismal, to the point that on the revenue side they would be better off in the Big East.  Meanwhile, they are incurring large costs associated with maintaining a football program.  Essentially they are pissing away money at a lost cause.

In my opinion they are better off just eating their initial investment and stopping the blood loss.  If they maintain a DI program, they better have assurances that they are going to get in the Big10 or ACC, otherwise they are making a poor business decision.

[Atticus]

I see this argument often.  But the facts may indicate that they are better off dropping DI football sooner rather than later.  Yes they already invested millions of dollars.  However, that investment failed to get them a seat at the big table.  There is no motive for one of the big conferences to take them...so they also have no mechanism at the moment to make it to the big leagues.
In the AAC, their revenue projections for football are dismal, to the point that on the revenue side they would be better off in the Big East.  Meanwhile, they are incurring large costs associated with maintaining a football program.  Essentially they are pissing away money at a lost cause.

In my opinion they are better off just eating their initial investment and stopping the blood loss.  If they maintain a DI program, they better have assurances that they are going to get in the Big10 or ACC, otherwise they are making a poor business decision.

So what is the Connecticut tax payer's threshold in terms of subsidizing a money losing football program annually? Maybe its many more millions for many more years... Private schools have a tighter budget.

If states dont spend every penny it gets from federal programs, those states will generally receive less the next year. Recipients of state tax dollars are generally treated the same way. Spend away. If you dont live in Connecticut, you shouldnt really care.

[Ellenson Guerrero]

Funny. Maybe they'll just demolish their top 25 football practice facility and pull the plug on a program they have invested many millions of dollars in over the last 10 years. UConn will find a spot in a top conference; they wont be in the AAC forever.

Besides, what makes you think they would even be interested in the Big East? They are a far superior program compared to any of the current BE members. Second place is light years away.

Sunk cost fallacy anyone???

[keefe]

I get where you are coming from, but I would wager the brand equity comes from the success of the basketball programs, not the campus, at least for this exercise. Plus, we already have some campuses that fit that mold I would think.  Where would you rank DePaul for state of Illinois?  

In terms of the 6th or 7th best in Virgina, whom were you thinking are ahead of them?  More of a curiousity question than anything.

Uva
Va Tech
Richmond?
George Mason
William and Mary?

My list is only for the public universities in the Commonwealth. I would say that in terms of academic reputation Virginians would place the in the following order:

CWM
UVA
VPI
VMI
JMU
GMU
ODU
VCU

There are many fine private schools in Virginia including Richmond, Washington and Lee, Sweetbriar, Randolph-Macon, Hampden-Sydney...

The bottom line is that VCU does not have the best rep in VA, the NCR, mid-Atlantic, or the Near South. Marquette vs Georgetown is a statement. But then so too is Marquette vs VCU. Only one of them is necessarily positive.

[ChicosBailBonds]

As far as public universities in Virginia:

UVa, Va Tech, W&M, Old Dominion, James Madison...

I can't imagine three of those ever being considered for our conference.  The other two play major football so that's out as well. 

[Eldon]

Sunk cost fallacy anyone???

Yup yup.  I was going to write this, but you beat me to it.  Stadium, facilities cost, etc. are all spilled milk.  Reoptimize from today going forward.

Im not sure that UConn gets into the ACC for a while.  The ACC knows that UConn is too far for the Big XII and I think the Big Ten is a stretch.  ACC takes UConn only when it has to, as a last resort.  Oh yea, plus there's Boston College using whatever pull it has to block them from joining.  Having said all that, if football is a money pit already, it will only be more so after Rutgers and Lville leave.

But I agree with the original poster--UConn probably would be the best program overall in the Big East, and I would love to have them.

[ChicosBailBonds]

My list is only for the public universities in the Commonwealth. I would say that in terms of academic reputation Virginians would place the in the following order:

CWM
UVA
VPI
VMI
JMU
GMU
ODU
VCU

There are many fine private schools in Virginia including Richmond, Washington and Lee, Sweetbriar, Randolph-Macon, Hampden-Sydney...

The bottom line is that VCU does not have the best rep in VA, the NCR, mid-Atlantic, or the Near South. Marquette vs Georgetown is a statement. But then so too is Marquette vs VCU. Only one of them is necessarily positive.

I agree there are many fine schools, but I guess I was trying to think of it in terms of who could also compete from a basketball perspective.  I'm intimately familiar with VMI, for example, as that was a school I looked at attending.  My bro-in-law teaches at W&M and his daughter attends University of Mary Washington out there.  Whether it is W&L, W&M, VMI, ODU, etc, none of them can compete at this level in hoops.  My perspective was more on the competition front.

Where do you think DePaul ranks in Illinois?  Or for that matter, St. John's in NY, Butler in Indiana, etc?  If we were to go as deep in each state to look at schools that don't have a shot to compete athletically, many of them would be further down the list as well.  IMO.  Cornell, NYU, Columbia, Syracuse, Colgate, RPI, Binghamton, West Point, Vassar, Barnard, Union, Hamilton, Skidmore, etc, etc.  Just as I would rank Lawrence over MU.

[keefe]

I agree there are many fine schools, but I guess I was trying to think of it in terms of who could also compete from a basketball perspective.  I'm intimately familiar with VMI, for example, as that was a school I looked at attending.  My bro-in-law teaches at W&M and his daughter attends University of Mary Washington out there.  Whether it is W&L, W&M, VMI, ODU, etc, none of them can compete at this level in hoops.  My perspective was more on the competition front.

Where do you think DePaul ranks in Illinois?  Or for that matter, St. John's in NY, Butler in Indiana, etc?  If we were to go as deep in each state to look at schools that don't have a shot to compete athletically, many of them would be further down the list as well.  IMO.  Cornell, NYU, Columbia, Syracuse, Colgate, RPI, Binghamton, West Point, Vassar, Barnard, Union, Hamilton, Skidmore, etc, etc.  Just as I would rank Lawrence over MU.

You have eliminated the most important variable which is the culture, structure and mission of the university. That is the commonality linking the Big East schools, including Butler. VCU is a very different beast.

My oldest played LAX at Middlebury. When you look at the NESCAC schools they share structure, geography, mission, and heritage.  I do not think the NESCAC would ever consider adding SUNY Binghampton as a member as it is an altogether different institution. If the Big East is ever to establish a unique identity and vest value in its brand then member must be a significant consideration. Adding the 8th best public university in VA does not fit that profile in any way.

As for those who cite the recent success of VCU I quote George S. Patton:

"For over a thousand years, Roman conquerors returning from the wars enjoyed the honor of a triumph - a tumultuous parade. In the procession came trumpeters and musicians and strange animals from the conquered territories, together with carts laden with treasure and captured armaments. The conqueror rode in a triumphal chariot, the dazed prisoners walking in chains before him. Sometimes his children, robed in white, stood with him in the chariot, or rode the trace horses. A slave stood behind the conqueror, holding a golden crown, and whispering in his ear a warning: That all glory is fleeting."

[real chili 83]

Where do you think DePaul ranks in Illinois?  Or for that matter, St. John's in NY, Butler in Indiana, etc?  If we were to go as deep in each state to look at schools that don't have a shot to compete athletically, many of them would be further down the list as well.  IMO.  Cornell, NYU, Columbia, Syracuse, Colgate, RPI, Binghamton, West Point, Vassar, Barnard, Union, Hamilton, Skidmore, etc, etc.  Just as I would rank Lawrence over MU.

Again, huh?

[ChicosBailBonds]

Again, huh?

Which part?

[GGGG]

You have eliminated the most important variable which is the culture, structure and mission of the university. That is the commonality linking the Big East schools, including Butler. VCU is a very different beast.

My oldest played LAX at Middlebury. When you look at the NESCAC schools they share structure, geography, mission, and heritage.  I do not think the NESCAC would ever consider adding SUNY Binghampton as a member as it is an altogether different institution. If the Big East is ever to establish a unique identity and vest value in its brand then member must be a significant consideration. Adding the 8th best public university in VA does not fit that profile in any way.

You have yet to tell me *why* this matters.  We live in an era where Vanderbilt shares conference membership with Mississippi State...where Stanford shares with Utah.  Hell, Marquette has been in a conference with Cincinnati for much of the last 20 years.

The Ivy League and the NESCAC are exceptions.  The purpose behind the BE IMO is to gather the best non-football schools in the east and the midwest.  VCU fits that mold.  No one cares that (in your opinion) they are the 6th or 7th best school in Virginia. 

As for fleeting success, you could say that about any school - like Creighton, Xavier and Butler.  And it is a lot easier to maintain success as a 20,000 public university v. a 8,000 private one.

[Jet915]

You have yet to tell me *why* this matters.  We live in an era where Vanderbilt shares conference membership with Mississippi State...where Stanford shares with Utah.  Hell, Marquette has been in a conference with Cincinnati for much of the last 20 years.

The Ivy League and the NESCAC are exceptions.  The purpose behind the BE IMO is to gather the best non-football schools in the east and the midwest.  VCU fits that mold.  No one cares that (in your opinion) they are the 6th or 7th best school in Virginia. 

As for fleeting success, you could say that about any school - like Creighton, Xavier and Butler.  And it is a lot easier to maintain success as a 20,000 public university v. a 8,000 private one.

It might not "matter" to us but from reading articles and quotes from the Presidents of the 10 private schools, it "matters" to them.

[GGGG]

It might not "matter" to us but from reading articles and quotes from the Presidents of the 10 private schools, it "matters" to them.

No kidding.

I'm just saying it shouldn't.  The "harm" caused by public institutions only exists when football is involved.

EDIT TO ADD:  Let me say this, if keefe is right that Gonzaga was approached for membership, and VCU wasn't, it really calls me to question what exactly they are doing and why.

[Ellenson Guerrero]

No kidding.

I'm just saying it shouldn't.  The "harm" caused by public institutions only exists when football is involved.

EDIT TO ADD:  Let me say this, if keefe is right that Gonzaga was approached for membership, and VCU wasn't, it really calls me to question what exactly they are doing and why.

Haven't kept up with this thread, but what makes you think VCU has staying power once Shaka leaves? I'm nervous enough about Butler.

[forgetful]

So what is the Connecticut tax payer's threshold in terms of subsidizing a money losing football program annually? Maybe its many more millions for many more years... Private schools have a tighter budget.

If states dont spend every penny it gets from federal programs, those states will generally receive less the next year. Recipients of state tax dollars are generally treated the same way. Spend away. If you dont live in Connecticut, you shouldnt really care.

Since it is tax payer money they should be even more prudent on making the correct business solution.  There are a lot of places that money can be allocated. A failing football team should never be on the tax rolls.

I assure you, if you asked the average Connecticut citizen, if they would rather have lower taxes, or a crappy football team at UCONN, they would take the lower taxes.

[brewcity77]

Haven't kept up with this thread, but what makes you think VCU has staying power once Shaka leaves? I'm nervous enough about Butler.

Haven't kept up with the thread either, but VCU and Butler have shown a good track record of coaching hires over the past 10-15 years. Butler especially has used their "Butler Way" to demonstrate an ability to repeatedly find good young coaches. VCU has done the same, though the man responsible for most of those hirings is gone now. I have faith that Butler will maintain at least a solid program until they prove otherwise. And VCU still has Smart. I don't think the Lakers will come calling any time soon.

[Wisco]

You have yet to tell me *why* this matters.  We live in an era where Vanderbilt shares conference membership with Mississippi State...where Stanford shares with Utah.  Hell, Marquette has been in a conference with Cincinnati for much of the last 20 years.

The Ivy League and the NESCAC are exceptions.  The purpose behind the BE IMO is to gather the best non-football schools in the east and the midwest.  VCU fits that mold.  No one cares that (in your opinion) they are the 6th or 7th best school in Virginia. 

As for fleeting success, you could say that about any school - like Creighton, Xavier and Butler.  And it is a lot easier to maintain success as a 20,000 public university v. a 8,000 private one.

I strongly disagree with his analysis of school "desirability" in VA anyway. I have lived in Richmond for nearly 10 years. I attended high school here. Many of my friends currently attend highly-regarded universities such as UVA and William & Mary.

I graduated very near the top of my high school class. I say this not to boast, but to put some things in perspective. My college choice was UVA. After my freshman year, I decided to transfer to VCU due to the fact that it had a stronger program for my major (along with wanting to be closer to home).

None of my friends batted an eye. Including the ones at the public ivies. The most common response was "good for you man, VCU is an awesome choice."

Would this have been the case 10 years ago? Probably not. But VCU has made major strides since then. And as that article shows, they are dumping massive amounts of money into both academics and athletics. We are near, if not at, residential status now. We have very highly regarded science, engineering and art programs.

Not that it really matters, because this whole argument is silly, but here is how most high school students in VA view colleges these days, coming from someone who went through the system recently:

Tier 1: UVA, W&M
Tier 2: Virginia Tech, JMU
Tier 3: VCU, GMU, ODU
Tier 4: All others

VCU is absolutely not the "8th ranked" school in the state. Again, as I have said in earlier posts, I would understand completely if the BE wanted to maintain a brand image. What I would not agree with, however, is the exclusion of VCU for entirely subjective reasons.

[GGGG]

Haven't kept up with this thread, but what makes you think VCU has staying power once Shaka leaves? I'm nervous enough about Butler.

They won before him and they are obviously throwing a bunch of resources at the program.  They could still make a bad hire, but they can come back from it.

[Wisco]

In addition to the information I presented in my previous post, I should also mention a link on the VCU strategic plan website:

http://www.future.vcu.edu/plan/plan/benchmarking.html

Notice the benchmark institutions that VCU is compared with. Louisville, USF and Cincinnati just to name a few. All schools that, at one point or another, Marquette felt comfortable associating with.

[Dawson Rental]

In addition to the information I presented in my previous post, I should also mention a link on the VCU strategic plan website:

http://www.future.vcu.edu/plan/plan/benchmarking.html

Notice the benchmark institutions that VCU is compared with. Louisville, USF and Cincinnati just to name a few. All schools that, at one point or another, Marquette felt comfortable associating with.

. . . and with which Marquette would no longer wishes to be associated.  Cincinnati and USF being two who would have been glad to remain associated with Marquette.

[GGGG]

. . . and with which Marquette would no longer wishes to be associated.  Cincinnati and USF being two who would have been glad to remain associated with Marquette.

They all play football...VCU doesn't.

[forgetful]

In addition to the information I presented in my previous post, I should also mention a link on the VCU strategic plan website:

http://www.future.vcu.edu/plan/plan/benchmarking.html

Notice the benchmark institutions that VCU is compared with. Louisville, USF and Cincinnati just to name a few. All schools that, at one point or another, Marquette felt comfortable associating with.

Careful with benchmark institutions, they are often grossly not representative of where a university currently stands or can realistically attain.  That said, I know nothing about academics at VCU, and would have assumed it is a quality school, beyond that its all politics to get higher rankings. 

I would definitely agree with you in your statement that programs are important...sadly a lot look just at the school name and not the reputation of individual programs.

[Aughnanure]

Haven't kept up with the thread either, but VCU and Butler have shown a good track record of coaching hires over the past 10-15 years. Butler especially has used their "Butler Way" to demonstrate an ability to repeatedly find good young coaches. VCU has done the same, though the man responsible for most of those hirings is gone now. I have faith that Butler will maintain at least a solid program until they prove otherwise. And VCU still has Smart. I don't think the Lakers will come calling any time soon.

The "Butler Way" is just a made-up phrase. Means nothing.

[Aughnanure]

I can't imagine three of those ever being considered for our conference.  The other two play major football so that's out as well. 

Yeah. VCU isn't 7th because we're not adding these teams by their academic standings.

That being said, adding a perennially 3rd to 6th best (i.e., fan support, money, etc) state school just isn't attractive to me. State schools naturally compete against other in-state public school and Virginia not only has one heavily-supported BCS school, but two that will forever put them ahead of all others in terms of students/money/alumni/state influence.

[Aughnanure]

I get where you are coming from, but I would wager the brand equity comes from the success of the basketball programs, not the campus, at least for this exercise. Plus, we already have some campuses that fit that mold I would think.  Where would you rank DePaul for state of Illinois?  

DePaul? 2nd in Illinois. And don't even mention the school that has never been to an NCAA tournament ever.