New Addition to the Big East

[ResidentBrown]

This is an absolutely unrealistic idea, but what if the Big East formed some sort of multi-tiered league of the eastern private schools that works similar to the EPL and the lower leagues in English soccer. The top ten teams are the "Big East", and there would be several tiers below those ten. The bottom two schools would be relegated every year to the lower league and the top two of the lower league would be promoted to the top ten every year. The bottom two of tier 2 would drop to tier three and the top two of tier three would be promoted to tier 2 etc. That way, there would be more assurance that the "Big East" is not dragged down by bottom feeders. Smaller schools that have a string of quality years would be able to earn their way up to playing with the big boys - and would be a quality opponent for those big boys. If their success is not sustained, they'd be relegated again. For We'd be able to have teams like Davidson or Saint Louis in our conference without having to worry about the risk of adding them and seeing them fall off and become perennial bottom feeders.

It'd look something like this:

Tier One
Marquette, Georgetown, Villanova, Providence, Butler, St. John's, Creighton, Xavier, Seton Hall, DePaul

Tier Two
St. Joseph's, Saint Louis, Dayton, Davidson, Richmond, Drexel, Siena, Valparaiso, George Washington, La Salle

You could go to as many tiers as you want.

Tier Three
Detroit Mercy, Iona, St. Bonaventure, Belmont, Bucknell, Boston U., Holy Cross, Northeastern, Bradley, Hofstra

Tier Four
Evansville, Drake, Rider, Duquesne, Niagara, Rider, Loyola (IL), Fairfield, Manhattan, Canisius, Loyola (MD)

Etc.

Schools in the lower tiers (smaller schools) would have motivation to improve their programs because they have a chance to be promoted to the big times, recruits would be told that by their junior or senior year, they might have the opportunity to play ball in a marquee conference on national television. Teams in the upper tiers wouldn't have to be bogged down in schedule strength by playing crummy teams (teams like Seton Hall and DePaul would be relegated, and replaced with teams that are having a string of strong years such as Davidson or Saint Louis.) This would be a solution to maintaining a powerful conference every year by "farming" the mid-majors for the most competitive opponents.  

Each tier would still be it's own conference, and thus would still garner an auto-bid. Even a fourth tier conference would be as strong or better than the SWAC or the MEAC. Tier two would be essentially as competitive as the A-10 is now - not quite as much power at the top, but a lot less crud on the bottom - the Fordhams would drop.

Some out of conference inter-tier play could be arranged too, to maintain rivalries or whatever.

I realize that their are obvious drawbacks, but it's kind of fun to thing about.

[DFW HOYA]

I've come full circle on this.  I don't mind public universities as long as they give some sort of "pledge" not to add football programs. 

Villanova, Georgetown, and Butler football aren't going away, and frankly, don't hurt basketball one bit.

[MU82]

Villanova, Georgetown, and Butler football aren't going away, and frankly, don't hurt basketball one bit.

They don't hurt basketball one bit because they are not planning to go "big time" and switch to Division I (or whatever the top division is calling itself these days). If they did that, by necessity, they'd have to leave the Big East and join a power football conference to have access to real TV money.

[GGGG]

They don't hurt basketball one bit because they are not planning to go "big time" and switch to Division I (or whatever the top division is calling itself these days). If they did that, by necessity, they'd have to leave the Big East and join a power football conference to have access to real TV money.

Right.  Both are FCS and Georgetown is non-scholarship (I think).  If VCU wants to do that I have no problem.

[keefe]

I've come full circle on this.  I don't mind public universities as long as they give some sort of "pledge" not to add football programs.  I think VCU would be a much better choice than Richmond. 

So my vote is for VCU and St. Louis. 

How one sees himself is telling...




Just say NO to VCU

[Aughnanure]

UMASS just joined the MAC for football.  They aren't dropping it anytime soon.

Oh I know, there has been some resistance to it but they are kind of at the point of no return. Was just using them as an example versus VCU.

Unless Gonzaga or Notre Dame suddenly want in, I'd rather just wait AT LEAST 5 years to see which programs rise up in the new alignment. No one would have thought Butler 10 years ago. It's not impossible for a Drake, Siena, Davidson, or even Duquesne to be attractive in 5-10 years (though Duquesne gonna have to get an arena bigger than 4k).

[Aughnanure]

How one sees himself is telling...



Just say NO to VCU

+1000000000. All they talk about is their one year while belittling other programs with much better history like Providence and SJU.

[Eldon]

How one sees himself is telling...




Just say NO to VCU

Shortly after their blowout of Butler last year, they had "havoc" printed on their warm up shirts.  What a joke.  First game they wore the shirts, they got their a$$ handed to them LOL.

http://scores.espn.go.com/ncb/recap?gameId=330690218

[Wisco]

+1000000000. All they talk about is their one year while belittling other programs with much better history like Providence and SJU.

As many have said on this forum over and over and over again, history is nice and all, but at what point does it start to lose meaning if you're a perennial bottom-feeder now (not necessarily referring to Providence and SJU, but you get my point)?

And who exactly at VCU is "belittling other programs"? I will be a Warrior fanatic until the day I die but Marquette has gone no further in the tournament than VCU since 1977. How do you think Gonzaga viewed their rapid acension not too long ago? I'd be willing to bet that their fans suffered from the same delusions as Rams fanatics.

It all comes with a rise in status. There have been plenty of arguments on MUScoop about the banners we hang and how they compare to the blue bloods. How is what VCU is doing any different? Context is key. The sentiment held by yourself and others is really starting to look like nothing more than a bias against public insitutions.

And let me be clear once again: I wouldn't be surprised at all if VCU wasn't picked up by the BE in the near future. In fact, I would completely understand if they were never offered a spot. For me, though, it is more about the fact that they are an unknown commodity (along with the size issue), rather than some baseless crap about "flagship status", commuter numbers, the potential for I-A football (which will never happen) and what types of banners they hang.

[Coleman]

This is an absolutely unrealistic idea, but what if the Big East formed some sort of multi-tiered league of the eastern private schools that works similar to the EPL and the lower leagues in English soccer. The top ten teams are the "Big East", and there would be several tiers below those ten. The bottom two schools would be relegated every year to the lower league and the top two of the lower league would be promoted to the top ten every year. The bottom two of tier 2 would drop to tier three and the top two of tier three would be promoted to tier 2 etc. That way, there would be more assurance that the "Big East" is not dragged down by bottom feeders. Smaller schools that have a string of quality years would be able to earn their way up to playing with the big boys - and would be a quality opponent for those big boys. If their success is not sustained, they'd be relegated again. For We'd be able to have teams like Davidson or Saint Louis in our conference without having to worry about the risk of adding them and seeing them fall off and become perennial bottom feeders.

It'd look something like this:

Tier One
Marquette, Georgetown, Villanova, Providence, Butler, St. John's, Creighton, Xavier, Seton Hall, DePaul

Tier Two
St. Joseph's, Saint Louis, Dayton, Davidson, Richmond, Drexel, Siena, Valparaiso, George Washington, La Salle

You could go to as many tiers as you want.

Tier Three
Detroit Mercy, Iona, St. Bonaventure, Belmont, Bucknell, Boston U., Holy Cross, Northeastern, Bradley, Hofstra

Tier Four
Evansville, Drake, Rider, Duquesne, Niagara, Rider, Loyola (IL), Fairfield, Manhattan, Canisius, Loyola (MD)

Etc.

Schools in the lower tiers (smaller schools) would have motivation to improve their programs because they have a chance to be promoted to the big times, recruits would be told that by their junior or senior year, they might have the opportunity to play ball in a marquee conference on national television. Teams in the upper tiers wouldn't have to be bogged down in schedule strength by playing crummy teams (teams like Seton Hall and DePaul would be relegated, and replaced with teams that are having a string of strong years such as Davidson or Saint Louis.) This would be a solution to maintaining a powerful conference every year by "farming" the mid-majors for the most competitive opponents.  

Each tier would still be it's own conference, and thus would still garner an auto-bid. Even a fourth tier conference would be as strong or better than the SWAC or the MEAC. Tier two would be essentially as competitive as the A-10 is now - not quite as much power at the top, but a lot less crud on the bottom - the Fordhams would drop.

Some out of conference inter-tier play could be arranged too, to maintain rivalries or whatever.

I realize that their are obvious drawbacks, but it's kind of fun to thing about.

Its not a terrible idea. I don't know what NCAA regulations say about changing "conferences" that often. Because even if its all the Big East, you are still essentially changing conferences because if you are relegated or promoted you have completely different opponents the next year. If they could find a way for it to be OK with the NCAA and not mess up things like autobids I'd be all for it.

I think you'd still want different names for each Tier, so you could tell them apart.

Tier 1 could stay Big East, Tier 2 could be Atlantic Ten, Tier 3 Eastern Athletic Conference or something like that, etc. And then you have a new name for the whole alliance structure of all the conferences, like the Eastern Conferences Basketball Federation or something


The difficult thing is that obviously wouldnt carry over to other sports, so your men's basketball opponents would not be the same as women's or soccer or whatever, unless you used the exact same structure for all sports.

But I like it. Instead of the media and markets decide who is in a "high major" conference, you just let the schools duke it out and earn the right to be there. Tradition can dictate where you start but if you are Depaul you better get your crap together real quick.

[Aughnanure]

As many have said on this forum over and over and over again, history is nice and all, but at what point does it start to lose meaning if you're a perennial bottom-feeder now (not necessarily referring to Providence and SJU, but you get my point)?

And who exactly at VCU is "belittling other programs"? I will be a Warrior fanatic until the day I die but Marquette has gone no further in the tournament than VCU since 1977. How do you think Gonzaga viewed their rapid acension not too long ago? I'd be willing to bet that their fans suffered from the same delusions as Rams fanatics.

It all comes with a rise in status. There have been plenty of arguments on MUScoop about the banners we hang and how they compare to the blue bloods. How is what VCU is doing any different? Context is key. The sentiment held by yourself and others is really starting to look like nothing more than a bias against public insitutions.

And let me be clear once again: I wouldn't be surprised at all if VCU wasn't picked up by the BE in the near future. In fact, I would completely understand if they were never offered a spot. For me, though, it is more about the fact that they are an unknown commodity (along with the size issue), rather than some baseless crap about "flagship status", commuter numbers, the potential for I-A football (which will never happen) and what types of banners they hang.

First off, I dont think you're reading VCU forums if you don't see the crap they throw at even schools like Villanova. Secondly, ONE second weekend appearance. Ever. So yes Marquette has gone further.

And flagship status is not "crap". I'll give you the football and commuter stuff is crap.

Now if we for some reason go to 16 then VCU becomes attractive, along with Wichita St. But at 12 I think we can still add to this conference and maintain a congruous identity.

[ChicosBailBonds]

VCU announces 5 year plan to raise athletic profile


VCU Releases Five-Year Strategic Plan Aimed At Raising School's Athletic Profile

Published July 19, 2013

McLaughlin's first priority is to build a new basketball practice facility

VCU AD Ed McLaughlin on Wednesday released a five-year strategic plan that he "hopes will make the Rams a major player in Division I in all sports but football," according to Tim Pearrell of the RICHMOND TIMES-DISPATCH. McLaughlin believes that the plan will "help the Rams continue to build on the momentum and become 'an elite-level' program." The plan "includes eight themes: strengthening VCU’s Division I position; enriching the student-athlete experience; expecting academic success; providing championship quality facilities; growing athletics revenues; sustaining fiscal responsibility; embracing equity and diversity; and constructing an optimal Division I infrastructure." However, "adding football is not part of the plan." New facilities, upgrades and money "will be required." McLaughlin's "first priority remains getting a privately funded basketball practice facility built." He said that the school "has some gifts that need to be finalized" and hopes to have the $14-16M needed for the facility "by the end of the summer." Other priorities "include possible expansion" of the basketball program's Siegel Center. McLaughlin said that expansion "depends on what a study says can be done 'without losing the environment.'" He added that the athletics department had a "small surplus this year and he expects the budget to be balanced in the future." VCU had a $981,848 deficit in '11-12 (RICHMOND TIMES-DISPATCH, 7/18).

[GGGG]

Good find Chicos.

Snap them up.  If the goal is to be the best, non-football conference in the country, VCU certainly fits that mold...and is perfect geographically. 

[Nukem2]

Good find Chicos.

Snap them up.  If the goal is to be the best, non-football conference in the country, VCU certainly fits that mold...and is perfect geographically. 

Agree as we'll.

[ResidentBrown]

Its not a terrible idea. I don't know what NCAA regulations say about changing "conferences" that often. Because even if its all the Big East, you are still essentially changing conferences because if you are relegated or promoted you have completely different opponents the next year. If they could find a way for it to be OK with the NCAA and not mess up things like autobids I'd be all for it.

I think you'd still want different names for each Tier, so you could tell them apart.

Tier 1 could stay Big East, Tier 2 could be Atlantic Ten, Tier 3 Eastern Athletic Conference or something like that, etc. And then you have a new name for the whole alliance structure of all the conferences, like the Eastern Conferences Basketball Federation or something


The difficult thing is that obviously wouldnt carry over to other sports, so your men's basketball opponents would not be the same as women's or soccer or whatever, unless you used the exact same structure for all sports.

But I like it. Instead of the media and markets decide who is in a "high major" conference, you just let the schools duke it out and earn the right to be there. Tradition can dictate where you start but if you are Depaul you better get your crap together real quick.

You could have all of the sports as part of the same super-federation, each sport working independently in it's promotion/relegation system. The Fairleigh Dickinson fencing team can talk smack to their basketball team about being stuck in tier five.

And I agree, it would be important to create titles for the lower leagues that give them some sort of dignity and credibility, instead of simply "Tier #". You could even give them the names of the old leagues that would implode under this system such as the Atlantic 10, the Metro Atlantic Athletic Conference, or the Patriot League.

I say let the performance dictate the quality of conference these teams play in. For example, Leeds United was once one of the best teams in all of Europe. They had their moment in the sun, but now they stink, so they are in a lower league. Schools have the chance to burst upwards into the spotlight and gain some national attention while they are good - essentially raising the profile of the entire school and gaining some bandwagon fans along the way. Once they fall off, they drop back down.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

One thing people are overlooking with VCU is their potential for future success. This is not a one hit wonder. Since 2007 they have been to the tournament 5 times, including the last 3 years. They followed up their final four run with another tournament appearance, and the year after that they moved up to the Atlantic 10, dominated it, and earned a four seed. By comparison, what did we do after our final four run? We missed the tournament...TWICE and then made two first round exits. The Big East still welcomed us and we all know what we've done since then.

Shaka Smart is one of the best, if not the best coach of the next generation of coaches. Boeheim, Coach K, Pitino, Williams will all be retiring soon (and Calipari will be kicked out...god willing). Coaches are what elevate programs, not players. Smart has already turned down a blue blood job and I believe he will not leave VCU until North Carolina or Duke come calling. He has the ability to turn VCU into as much of a tournament mainstay as we are.

Smart brought in a great class this year with all four stars and high three stars. He already has a 4 star committed for next season. Chicos made a great find with their commitment to improving athletics over the next five years (we won't get that from SLU). VCU is going up and we want to be on the ground floor.

People pay to see great basketball and that is what VCU can provide for us. To turn our noses up at them because "they don't have that strong of a history" or "they're a bad institutional fit" or "they are thinking about adding football...one day...maybe...but probably not" (which is funny since three of our current members already have football) would be a mistake.

Unless we get Notre Dame to bite, Gonzaga to cross the country, or UCONN (or a simlar institution) to drop FBS football, VCU should be our absolute number one priority.

[keefe]

VCU announces 5 year plan to raise athletic profile


VCU Releases Five-Year Strategic Plan Aimed At Raising School's Athletic Profile

Published July 19, 2013

McLaughlin's first priority is to build a new basketball practice facility

VCU AD Ed McLaughlin on Wednesday released a five-year strategic plan that he "hopes will make the Rams a major player in Division I in all sports but football," according to Tim Pearrell of the RICHMOND TIMES-DISPATCH. McLaughlin believes that the plan will "help the Rams continue to build on the momentum and become 'an elite-level' program." The plan "includes eight themes: strengthening VCU’s Division I position; enriching the student-athlete experience; expecting academic success; providing championship quality facilities; growing athletics revenues; sustaining fiscal responsibility; embracing equity and diversity; and constructing an optimal Division I infrastructure." However, "adding football is not part of the plan." New facilities, upgrades and money "will be required." McLaughlin's "first priority remains getting a privately funded basketball practice facility built." He said that the school "has some gifts that need to be finalized" and hopes to have the $14-16M needed for the facility "by the end of the summer." Other priorities "include possible expansion" of the basketball program's Siegel Center. McLaughlin said that expansion "depends on what a study says can be done 'without losing the environment.'" He added that the athletics department had a "small surplus this year and he expects the budget to be balanced in the future." VCU had a $981,848 deficit in '11-12 (RICHMOND TIMES-DISPATCH, 7/18).

I am happy they have a plan for greatness but VCU is simply not what we should want in a conference partner. I am from northern VA and I know that VCU is, at best, the sixth public college option in the Commonwealth. They certainly rank behind UVA, CWM, VPI, JMU, and GMU in terms of reputation and preference. The only public uni I applied to in VA was CWM though I thought about UVA. The rest were never a consideration.

Chico, would the Pac 12 consider admitting UC Irvine, Davis, or SB? Fine schools but not the same as Cal or UCLA. A good Bear Republic comparison for VCU might be SD State. They've enjoyed success of late under Fischer but that doesn't mean the Pac 12 is ever going to call. And the culture of the Cal State system is markedly different than the UC System...for the worse.   

[shoothoops]

One thing people are overlooking with VCU is their potential for future success. This is not a one hit wonder. Since 2007 they have been to the tournament 5 times, including the last 3 years. They followed up their final four run with another tournament appearance, and the year after that they moved up to the Atlantic 10, dominated it, and earned a four seed. By comparison, what did we do after our final four run? We missed the tournament...TWICE and then made two first round exits. The Big East still welcomed us and we all know what we've done since then.

Shaka Smart is one of the best, if not the best coach of the next generation of coaches. Boeheim, Coach K, Pitino, Williams will all be retiring soon (and Calipari will be kicked out...god willing). Coaches are what elevate programs, not players. Smart has already turned down a blue blood job and I believe he will not leave VCU until North Carolina or Duke come calling. He has the ability to turn VCU into as much of a tournament mainstay as we are.

Smart brought in a great class this year with all four stars and high three stars. He already has a 4 star committed for next season. Chicos made a great find with their commitment to improving athletics over the next five years (we won't get that from SLU). VCU is going up and we want to be on the ground floor.

People pay to see great basketball and that is what VCU can provide for us. To turn our noses up at them because "they don't have that strong of a history" or "they're a bad institutional fit" or "they are thinking about adding football...one day...maybe...but probably not" (which is funny since three of our current members already have football) would be a mistake.

Unless we get Notre Dame to bite, Gonzaga to cross the country, or UCONN (or a simlar institution) to drop FBS football, VCU should be our absolute number one priority.

I disagree with the SLU part.  They already have a new $80 million dollar facility.  They will continue their recent few year success this year, and moving forward.  They also have Richard Chaifetz, a big donor and regular courtside attendee, and some things SLU didn't have in the past.  Their school prez, who has long been known to be their obstacle, announced his future retirement, and will be replaced. Times have changed there.

 SLU already has some successful current, recent, and historical success in some of the other non-revenue sports.  i.e. they were #8 national seed in soccer last year, and will have better team this year,(historically one of all time great programs)  a good baseball coach with developing program, recent NCAA appearances, a very good womens volleyball team/coach until she was scooped up by another program. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

I am happy they have a plan for greatness but VCU is simply not what we should want in a conference partner. I am from northern VA and I know that VCU is, at best, the sixth public college option in the Commonwealth. They certainly rank behind UVA, CWM, VPI, JMU, and GMU in terms of reputation and preference. The only public uni I applied to in VA was CWM though I thought about UVA. The rest were never a consideration.

Chico, would the Pac 12 consider admitting UC Irvine, Davis, or SB? Fine schools but not the same as Cal or UCLA. A good Bear Republic comparison for VCU might be SD State. They've enjoyed success of late under Fischer but that doesn't mean the Pac 12 is ever going to call. And the culture of the Cal State system is markedly different than the UC System...for the worse.   

I guess I would start by saying I merely posted the VCU article because it was in that morning's SBD which I read religiously.  Thought it was interesting since the school has been brought up here many times.  Whether they are ideal for the Big East down the road, I have no idea.  Any school like that I would be worried how much is attributable to their coach and can they do it with different coaches.  The investment they are making certainly shows some commitment.

On your Pac 12 question, no that conference wouldn't take any of those schools mentioned because they don't have football.  Would a basketball only conference like Big East take VCU, sure. 

[keefe]

I guess I would start by saying I merely posted the VCU article because it was in that morning's SBD which I read religiously.  Thought it was interesting since the school has been brought up here many times.  Whether they are ideal for the Big East down the road, I have no idea.  Any school like that I would be worried how much is attributable to their coach and can they do it with different coaches.  The investment they are making certainly shows some commitment.

On your Pac 12 question, no that conference wouldn't take any of those schools mentioned because they don't have football.  Would a basketball only conference like Big East take VCU, sure. 

If we take VCU we are taking the 6th or 7th best regarded campus in the Commonwealth of Virginia. From a branding stand point that is a terrible mistake.

[GGGG]

If we take VCU we are taking the 6th or 7th best regarded campus in the Commonwealth of Virginia. From a branding stand point that is a terrible mistake.

It's cute that you still think that matters.

[keefe]

It's cute that you still think that matters.

It's cute that you don't understand brand equity. People in Washington DC judge you on what school you went to. It is a fact of life and it matters. If you don't know that then you are very naïve.

Tell someone you went to UVA or CWM and you get a very different response than if you say you went to ODU or VCU. You are judged by the company you keep and that is a factor in branding. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

If we take VCU we are taking the 6th or 7th best regarded campus in the Commonwealth of Virginia. From a branding stand point that is a terrible mistake.

I get where you are coming from, but I would wager the brand equity comes from the success of the basketball programs, not the campus, at least for this exercise. Plus, we already have some campuses that fit that mold I would think.  Where would you rank DePaul for state of Illinois?  

In terms of the 6th or 7th best in Virgina, whom were you thinking are ahead of them?  More of a curiousity question than anything.

Uva
Va Tech
Richmond?
George Mason
William and Mary?

[Atticus]

Unless we get Notre Dame to bite, Gonzaga to cross the country, or UCONN (or a simlar institution) to drop FBS football, VCU should be our absolute number one priority.

Funny. Maybe they'll just demolish their top 25 football practice facility and pull the plug on a program they have invested many millions of dollars in over the last 10 years. UConn will find a spot in a top conference; they wont be in the AAC forever.

Besides, what makes you think they would even be interested in the Big East? They are a far superior program compared to any of the current BE members. Second place is light years away.

[GGGG]

I get where you are coming from, but I would wager the brand equity comes from the success of the basketball programs, not the campus, at least for this exercise. Plus, we already have some campuses that fit that mold I would think.  Where would you rank DePaul for state of Illinois? 

In terms of the 6th or 7th best in Virgina, whom were you thinking are ahead of them?  More of a curiousity question than anything.

Uva
Va Tech
Richmond?
George Mason
William and Mary?

As far as public universities in Virginia:

UVa, Va Tech, W&M, Old Dominion, James Madison...