....from a significant booster that Xavier, Creighton, SLU and Butler are most definitely getting invites. Attendance is a slight concern with the new league relative to what we have had in the BE. From what I have heard, MU is not necessarily the leader in all of this mess because the source (OK...Larry WILLIAMS)...didnt have all the answers. There is a slight amount of concern that GU doesnt have two feet in....but they have no where else to go. SJU and GU are working hard to secure long term OOC agreements with Syracuse. Some of the "other" schools dont like that effort.
Well, there is nothing that can be done about Georgetown. Regardless of how dedicated they are, this is the best move for MU even if Georgetown and SJU get invites elsewhere.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 23, 2012, 03:22:17 PM
Well, there is nothing that can be done about Georgetown. Regardless of how dedicated they are, this is the best move for MU even if Georgetown and SJU get invites elsewhere.
I don't see GTown of SJU getting better invites, if they want to work something out with Syracuse, whatever.
Well I hope the little birdie is wrong. Once you hook up with the SLU's, Creighton's and Butler (minus Stephen's) you are in that class for a long time. If I were LW I would have GU attitude and be working hard for better deal. Bringing in the mentioned school's brings us down too far in food chain.
Quote from: PTM on December 23, 2012, 03:23:06 PM
I don't see GTown of SJU getting better invites, if they want to work something out with Syracuse, whatever.
I hope we are working out OOC deals with ND and Louisville. If so, are GU and SJU upset with us?
There is no question that Gonzaga must be part of this construct. No question whatsoever.
Quote from: Goose on December 23, 2012, 03:26:52 PM
Well I hope the little birdie is wrong. Once you hook up with the SLU's, Creighton's and Butler (minus Stephen's) you are in that class for a long time. If I were LW I would have GU attitude and be working hard for better deal. Bringing in the mentioned school's brings us down too far in food chain.
+1
C7 plus X, SLU! Creighton and Butler runs the risk of turning into a mid-major.
Need Gonzaga, VCU to ensue this inference can have 4+ bids.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on December 23, 2012, 03:35:08 PM
+1
C7 plus X, SLU! Creighton and Butler runs the risk of turning into a mid-major.
Need Gonzaga, VCU to ensue this inference can have 4+ bids.
Three of those four schools made the NCAA tourney last year. (Butler was the one who didn't).
One of them (Xavier) made the sweet sixteen.
Quote from: Goose on December 23, 2012, 03:26:52 PM
Well I hope the little birdie is wrong. Once you hook up with the SLU's, Creighton's and Butler (minus Stephen's) you are in that class for a long time. If I were LW I would have GU attitude and be working hard for better deal. Bringing in the mentioned school's brings us down too far in food chain.
God, shut up with this constant fear.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on December 23, 2012, 03:35:08 PM
+1
C7 plus X, SLU! Creighton and Butler runs the risk of turning into a mid-major.
Need Gonzaga, VCU to ensue this inference can have 4+ bids.
So Butler and Xavier turn this league into mid-major but VCU's time in the CAA makes this conference legit?
You can be assured ZERO fear on this front. Simply stating a fact, both on business and basketball side of a conference that includes the schools mentioned. If you get excited over those names it tells me the race has been run and most are hoping for making best out of situation. I still have hope that we do better than the making the best out of a situation.
Quote from: Aughnanure on December 23, 2012, 03:46:52 PM
So Butler and Xavier turn this league into mid-major but VCU's time in the CAA makes this conference legit?
+1
Butler, Xavier, Gonzaga, and Creighton are good. Very good.
Dayton, VCU, Richmond, Wichita State, SLU, St Joe's, Shippensburg State, UW-Platteville, Lehigh, Duquense, LaSalle, UMass, Toledo, and any other A10 are bad. Very bad.
God what the hell is the Presidents or anyone else's infatuation with SLU?? You are absolutely right, if SLU and Dayton are part of this league, it's no question the national perception will be that of a mid major. if you were going to split like this, then you HAVE to do it right and invite the best possible basketball schools you can. Xavier is one of them, butler is one of them, gonzaga is one of them, and Creighton is one of them. SLU and Dayton are not even close to that.
If they add Dayton and slu then there better not be divisions. Would really affect attendance and season ticket sales if those were two of the guaranteed home games every year.
Also, why does this need to be done overnight? Start with 10 teams and then in a few years re-evaluate the landscape of college athletics and go from there. No need to rush to adding these mid majors (Dayton, slu).
Quote from: MARQ_13 on December 23, 2012, 04:12:11 PM
If they add Dayton and slu then there better not be divisions. Would really affect attendance and season ticket sales if those were two of the guaranteed home games every year.
They must not add Dayton and SLU! We might as well stay in the shriveled Big East. Please end the discussion around Dayton and SLU. Please end it.
Quote from: keefe on December 23, 2012, 04:17:28 PM
They must not add Dayton and SLU! We might as well stay in the shriveled Big East. Please end the discussion around Dayton and SLU. Please end it.
Man, a lot of hate for Dayton. 46th in all-time wins (we are 45th), 27th in attendance last year, $423 million endownment.
I am not saying they should be top of the list but they have to be a candidiate.
Quote from: keefe on December 23, 2012, 04:17:28 PM
They must not add Dayton and SLU! We might as well stay in the shriveled Big East. Please end the discussion around Dayton and SLU. Please end it.
They aren't my first choices, but give me a break. The simple reality is that we are going to be in a league driven by basketball. That means it will be much harder to have a league made up of as many elite teams as you find elsewhere. From a competition perspective, Gonzaga and Creighton are good adds. But are they good fits? That's a different question.
I really want Gonzaga. But when you consider they will likely have to charter all their away games over 1,000 miles for non-revenue sports, that's a big expenditure. What about Creighton? Can they afford to send their teams to not only Milwaukee and Chicago, but Washington DC and New York?
Dayton and St. Louis both have a bit of tradition. Dayton has a fervent (psychotic might be a better word) fanbase while St. Louis has a new facility and seems to be investing in their future. Remember, there was a time when Marquette was down lower than those two are now. We got back up, they could do the same, especially with a new league to drive their growth.
Bottom line, we aren't going to have a Louisville. We aren't going to have a Syracuse. We aren't going to have the super-power schools we're used to seeing. But we'll have a good basketball league of teams dedicated to success. And as long as they are committed, we'll all be just fine.
Quote from: MARQ_13 on December 23, 2012, 04:12:11 PM
If they add Dayton and slu then there better not be divisions. Would really affect attendance and season ticket sales if those were two of the guaranteed home games every year.
I doubt there will be divisions if only because
1.) The Midwestern schools will want the east coast exposure through mirror games, rather than only playing in any given East Coast market every other year because they've got to pick up a mirror game with Dayton or SLU.
2.) Remember, kids, the Big East had 16 teams and no divisions.
3.) In fact, no high-level Division I Conference has divisions. Some allocate their schedules as if there were divisions, or seed their conference tournaments according to divisions, but the Big 10, Pac-12, SEC and ACC all treat their league standings as if it were a single table. If you're going to have divisions it has to mean something
4.) If you look at the likely teams and split it geographically, the divisions would likely split up Xavier and Dayton, only by virtue of the fact that there are 5 schools along I-95, and most of the other rumored teams are west of there.
X and Butler would appear to be locks. Dayton as well, given their rivalry with Xavier. That gets you to 10. Creighton would appear to be the lead contender for Spot #11, and while there's no doubt that Gonzaga surpasses SLU in basketball quality and sustained success, I don't want to add a school like St. Mary's or Loyola Marymount or whatever to get them. (Full disclosure: I got my J.D. at SLU.)
The format I see emerging is a 12 team league, with no divisions, and if I had to take a stab at membership, it would be Marquette, DePaul, SLU, Georgetown, Creighton, Butler, Seton Hall, Villanova, Dayton, Xavier, St. John's, and Providence.
Play everyone once. 7 mirror games that rotate through the league, so at most, any team would never miss out on trips to a certain market in consecutive years.
Quote from: MarquetteDano on December 23, 2012, 04:30:08 PM
Man, a lot of hate for Dayton. 46th in all-time wins (we are 45th), 27th in attendance last year, $423 million endownment.
I am not saying they should be top of the list but they have to be a candidiate.
Dayton wears that mid-major cologne. That mid-major cologne. Who wants to breath that in?
Quote from: Buzz Williams' Spillproof Chiclets Cup on December 23, 2012, 04:31:58 PMThe format I see emerging is a 12 team league, with no divisions, and if I had to take a stab at membership, it would be Marquette, DePaul, SLU, Georgetown, Creighton, Butler, Seton Hall, Villanova, Dayton, Xavier, St. John's, and Providence.
Dear God no. Dear God no.
Quote from: Tony Two Times on December 23, 2012, 04:36:06 PM
Dear God no. Dear God no.
Thanks for the input, guy who registered 20 minutes ago.
Quote from: Tony Two Times on December 23, 2012, 04:32:51 PM
Dayton wears that mid-major cologne. That mid-major cologne. Who wants to breath that in?
The footbll members of the BE said the same thing when Mrquette and DePaul were added. You dont remember?
Quote from: Buzz Williams' Spillproof Chiclets Cup on December 23, 2012, 04:44:17 PM
Thanks for the input, guy who registered 20 minutes ago.
I didn't know how long someone had been a member of a message board was directly correlated to the significance of their opinion. Last I checked, this was an internet message board, and no one's opinion means crap.
Quote from: keefe on December 23, 2012, 03:53:10 PM
+1
Butler, Xavier, Gonzaga, and Creighton are good. Very good.
Dayton, VCU, Richmond, Wichita State, SLU, St Joe's, Shippensburg State, UW-Platteville, Lehigh, Duquense, LaSalle, UMass, Toledo, and any other A10 are bad. Very bad.
In 2012 the mountain west and A-10 both had 4 bids. The ACC also had four bids while the PAC-12 has 2.
In 2011 the mountain west and A-10 both had 3 bids. The ACC and PAC-12 both had 4 bids.
So which 2 are mid-majors and which 2 are high- majors?
Mid-major is as much a perception as it is a statistical measure. If the C7 add mid-majors, the they will be a mid-major conference.
No to SLU and Dayton.
Quote from: Goose on December 23, 2012, 03:47:59 PM
You can be assured ZERO fear on this front. Simply stating a fact, both on business and basketball side of a conference that includes the schools mentioned. If you get excited over those names it tells me the race has been run and most are hoping for making best out of situation. I still have hope that we do better than the making the best out of a situation.
Marquette most certainly is trying to get into the best place for them. If Georgetown's best place is a BBall member of the ACC, then good for them. (I doubt it though....would have happened already.) Right now it looks as though MU is going to be in the best basketball conference in the country that doesn't sponsor football. Not much else can be hoped for at this point.
Bring in X and Butler and keep it at 9 for now. The fact we're struggling to find a consensus beyond that is a strong sign we should just leave it at that.
Quote from: Buzz Williams' Spillproof Chiclets Cup on December 23, 2012, 04:44:17 PM
Thanks for the input, guy who registered 20 minutes ago.
Speaking of that, what name is Canadian Dimes goin' by these days?
Quote from: Goose on December 23, 2012, 03:47:59 PM
You can be assured ZERO fear on this front. Simply stating a fact, both on business and basketball side of a conference that includes the schools mentioned. If you get excited over those names it tells me the race has been run and most are hoping for making best out of situation. I still have hope that we do better than the making the best out of a situation.
What's your solution? What else can MU do but make the best out of a sh!tty situation created by this whole conference realignment mess when we don't have the sport that's driving the bus?
I love everyone saying adding Creighton or SLU is making it mid-major.
Who will determine that major this conference is? The networks, and if Pete Thamel's reports are correct, we will be increasing our TV revenue with this new league.
The A-10 is a mid-major with their $300k/school TV deal.
Quote from: Litehouse on December 23, 2012, 04:57:13 PM
Bring in X and Butler and keep it at 9 for now. The fact we're struggling to find a consensus beyond that is a strong sign we should just leave it at that.
I agree with this. What's the rush to add more than two teams? A 16 game home-and-home is a solid schedule. We can get an alliance with another league to give each weekends spare team somebody to play. Dayton, Creighton, SLU, and VCU will still be out there for the taking in a few years. My dream scenario is that the ACC or Big 12 break up, Duke or Kansas disband football and join the basketball conference. Who knows what the football landscape will look like in 10 years?
Quote from: PTM on December 23, 2012, 05:54:00 PM
I love everyone saying adding Creighton or SLU is making it mid-major.
Who will determine that major this conference is? The networks, and if Pete Thamel's reports are correct, we will be increasing our TV revenue with this new league.
The A-10 is a mid-major with their $300k/school TV deal.
This mid major talk is ridiculous. Im going to give you a few a teams and your going to tell me who the "Mid Major" is
Auburn, Creighton, Washington State, Northwestern, Providence.......
Creighton would kick the crap out of those teams year in and year out yet some of you idiots think they are the mid major
Would like to see someone like VCU only because if it's about basketball I don't want to see it end up all catholic schools plus Butler.
Everything on signing a TV deal ASAP that has 2-3 M$ per school. That will solidify the conference. My bet is a deal that will make the league the enter piece for one of the upstart all sports cable channels -- Fox or NBC are the most likely.
Quote from: MarquetteDano on December 23, 2012, 04:30:08 PM
Man, a lot of hate for Dayton. 46th in all-time wins (we are 45th), 27th in attendance last year, $423 million endownment.
I am not saying they should be top of the list but they have to be a candidiate.
Why?? This should be additions by "what have you done for me lately". What kind of success has Dayton had lately?? I don't care about their attendance or anything else. I care about the product they put on the floor and Dayton and SLU's product stinks. Dayton has only made back to back NCAA tourneys twice since 1980..and have never made it more then two years in a row. Not good enough. SLU made it last year, ok, but where is their consistency??
Quote from: KenoshaWarrior on December 23, 2012, 05:58:39 PM
This mid major talk is ridiculous. Im going to give you a few a teams and your going to tell me who the "Mid Major" is
Auburn, Creighton, Washington State, Northwestern, Providence.......
Creighton would kick the crap out of those teams year in and year out yet some of you idiots think they are the mid major
Pretty sure we're on the same page.
Again I will ask for the definition of a "mid-major" and why it's being used exclusively as a pejorative term.
Quote from: Benny B on December 23, 2012, 06:27:22 PM
Again I will ask for the definition of a "mid-major" and why it's being used exclusively as a pejorative term.
I believe because it infers the conference is not in the top tier, but yet a middle tier.
Marquette should be in the top tier with the top tier basketball schools, not that I agree with a lot that is being said.
Quote from: Benny B on December 23, 2012, 06:27:22 PM
Again I will ask for the definition of a "mid-major" and why it's being used exclusively as a pejorative term.
Exactly right. Again, this will be the best basketball conference that doesn't sponsor football. That is really the best we can hope for. If someone wants to label it mid-major, but each school still manages to get $2-3M per year for TV rights, then I don't care what they call it.
Quote from: Mufflers on December 23, 2012, 05:55:24 PM
I agree with this. What's the rush to add more than two teams? A 16 game home-and-home is a solid schedule. We can get an alliance with another league to give each weekends spare team somebody to play. Dayton, Creighton, SLU, and VCU will still be out there for the taking in a few years. My dream scenario is that the ACC or Big 12 break up, Duke or Kansas disband football and join the basketball conference. Who knows what the football landscape will look like in 10 years?
Now is probably the time to point out that the last team presently in a BCS conference to dissolve their previously Division I football program was Marquette in 1960.
St. John's dissolved their football program in 2002, and Seton Hall dissolved their program in 1981. However, Seton Hall was Division III, and St. John's was FCS-level.
I wouldn't hold my breath on Kansas or Duke or Wake Forest dissolving football, and football dollars earned just by being a doormat in a BCS-level conference to join our wee league.
Quote from: Mufflers on December 23, 2012, 05:55:24 PM
I agree with this. What's the rush to add more than two teams? A 16 game home-and-home is a solid schedule. We can get an alliance with another league to give each weekends spare team somebody to play. Dayton, Creighton, SLU, and VCU will still be out there for the taking in a few years.
Because the more teams you have, the more product you generate. The question is at what level does the $$$ from increased product produce diminishing marginal returns. Im pretty sure those questions are being addressed right now. Simply put, if they can make more money per school with 12 teams, then you have 12 teams.
Quote from: Mufflers on December 23, 2012, 05:55:24 PM
My dream scenario is that the ACC or Big 12 break up, Duke or Kansas disband football and join the basketball conference. Who knows what the football landscape will look like in 10 years?
Yeah and as with most dreams, you need to wake up soon.
Quote from: Buzz Williams' Spillproof Chiclets Cup on December 23, 2012, 06:34:20 PM
Now is probably the time to point out that the last team presently in a BCS conference to dissolve their previously Division I football program was Marquette in 1960.
St. John's dissolved their football program in 2002, and Seton Hall dissolved their program in 1981. However, Seton Hall was Division III, and St. John's was FCS-level.
I wouldn't hold my breath on Kansas or Duke or Wake Forest dissolving football, and football dollars earned just by being a doormat in a BCS-level conference to join our wee league.
Way ahead of the curve.
Quote from: MU Fan in Connecticut on December 23, 2012, 06:04:43 PM
Would like to see someone like VCU only because if it's about basketball I don't want to see it end up all catholic schools plus Butler.
I think we should add BYU. Add BYU. They have their own Borgata for football so the rest of their crew would fit nicely. Would fit nicely.
Quote from: Tony Two Times on December 23, 2012, 06:42:41 PM
I think we should add BYU. Add BYU. They have their own Borgata for football so the rest of their crew would fit nicely. Would fit nicely.
Go away. Go away. Your little schtick is old. Your little schtick is old.
Dayton beat Murray State yesterday.
If you take a conference of Butler, Creighton, Dayton, DePaul, Georgetown, Marquette, Providence, Saint Louis, St. John's, Seton Hall, Villanova and Xavier, you have all of your members of the top 112 programs in Ken Pom's latest rankings. Not one of the BCS conferences can say that, so when you consider programs mid-major, just remember this. Also, the lowest ranked members of this group in the rankings are DePaul and St. John's.
Quote from: honkytonk on December 23, 2012, 03:19:31 PM
....from a significant booster that Xavier, Creighton, SLU and Butler are most definitely getting invites. Attendance is a slight concern with the new league relative to what we have had in the BE. From what I have heard, MU is not necessarily the leader in all of this mess because the source (OK...Larry WILLIAMS)...didnt have all the answers. There is a slight amount of concern that GU doesnt have two feet in....but they have no where else to go. SJU and GU are working hard to secure long term OOC agreements with Syracuse. Some of the "other" schools dont like that effort.
So your birdie buddy donates some money and knows the future of Marquette's fate 3 years from now?
Just a few thoughts on Gonzaga. There's this line out there that Gonzaga is somehow an elite-level program, but there's certainly an argument to be made as far as what they add to the conference.
Team Success
Yes, Gonzaga makes the tournament a lot, but let's have some perspective. The Bulldogs have only made it past the first weekend once in the last 6 years.
Ticket sales
Gonzaga's home arena is the McCarthy Athletic Center, and with a capacity of 6,000, it would be the smallest main men's basketball arena in the league. Here are some schools that have been tossed around by one thread or another.
20,308- Verizon Center (Georgetown)
20,238- Wells Fargo Center (Villanova)
19,033- Madison Square Garden (St. John's)
18,850- Bradley Center (Marquette)
18,711- Prudential Center (Seton Hall)
18,320- CenturyLink Center (Creighton)
17,500- Allstate Arena (DePaul)
13,435- UD Arena (Dayton)
12,400- Dunkin Donuts Center (Providence)
10,600- Chaifetz Arena (Saint Louis)
10,250- Cintas Center (Xavier)
10,000- Hinkle Fieldhouse (Butler)
9,071- Robins Center (Richmond)
7,617- Stuart C. Siegel Center (Virginia Commonwealth)
6,500- The Pavilion (Villanova)
6,000- McCarthy Athletic Center (Gonzaga)
5,602- Carnesecca Arena (St. John's)
4,000- Al McGuire Center (Marquette)
3,000- Sullivan Athletic Center (DePaul)
Television Exposure
Spokane's Nielsen rating is 73. They would be the second-lowest-ranked television market in the league. (No listing given for Providence, RI, presumably because they are considered part of the Boston media market).
1- New York (St. John's/Seton Hall)
3- Chicago (DePaul)
4- Philadelphia (Villanova)
7- Boston (Providence)
8- Washington, DC (Georgetown)
21- St. Louis (SLU)
26- Indianapolis (Butler)
34- Milwaukee (Marquette)
35- Cincinnati (Xavier)
63- Dayton (Dayton)
73- Spokane (Gonzaga)
75- Omaha (Creighton)
Don't think of this just in play for television eyeballs. Think as far as ticket sales and corporate support. Yes, there are exceptions of small city teams attracting wide following and corporate support (the Packers, etc.) but they are the exception, not the rule.
Further, what does Gonzaga deliver exactly for television except 10PM East Coast tipoff times? If the league is 12 teams, it is very likely that 8 of the 12 teams will be based in the Eastern Time Zone (Providence, St. John's, Seton Hall, Villanova, Georgetown, Xavier, Butler, VCU/Dayton).
Distance
Gonzaga would face enormous travel costs to send not just its basketball team, but all its other teams to road games across the conference. Gonzaga's closest rival would likely be Creighton, a mere 1400 miles or so. The I-95 schools would likely be a four-to-six-hour plane ride each way, and each team would make several trips like that per year. Will Gonzaga be able to pay for that as a small school in a tiny market with a small basketball arena?
Travel Partners
I'm personally not a big believer in "travel partners" but you seem to need them in geographically spread conferences. If so, who are you going to grab out west? There's not a lot to pick from. If you're looking for the best basketball west of the Rockies, you're realistically looking at the WCC and nobody else. Despite its recent boost in reputation, the WCC is basically the west coast version of the A-10. A few decent programs at the top and 900 feet of pure s*** at the bottom.
BYU (9 NCAA appearances in last 13 years) is the prize pig, but they would be the only school with FBS football. Getting BYU would be a hail mary in every sense of the word.
St. Mary's College (7 NCAA appearances in school history). For perspective, much-maligned SLU has just as many, and both schools have 5 appearances since 1990. Dayton has 14 appearances all time. So St. Mary's has half the NCAA tournament success of Dayton, another non-favorite on this board.
San Francisco (17 NCAA appearances in school history, none in the last 14 years)
Pepperdine (12 NCAA appearances in school history, none in the last 10 years)
Santa Clara (11 NCAA appearances in school history, none in the last 16 years)
Loyola Marymount (5 NCAA appearances in school history. None in the last 22 years)
San Diego (4 NCAA appearances in school history. (One in the last 9 years)
Portland (2 NCAA appearances in school history. None in the last 16 years)
So long story short, unless you can get BYU, there's no "travel partner" for Gonzaga worth taking who's west of Omaha. It makes zero sense to grab Gonzaga if you're just going to water the conference lineup down with a travel partner for them, especially not St. Mary's.
Conclusion
Small gym, small city, no travel partners, too far, late tipoffs, season consistently over by St. Patrick's Day weekend. Gonzaga's not all it's cracked up to be.
Spot on analysis. No reason to think that Gonzaga makes the conference significantly better than Dayton would.
Media Partner decides the next 5-7 in.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on December 23, 2012, 08:38:31 PM
Media Partner decides the next 5-7 in.
100% correct. ADs will ask the media partner, not decide.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on December 23, 2012, 03:35:08 PM
+1
C7 plus X, SLU! Creighton and Butler runs the risk of turning into a mid-major.
Need Gonzaga, VCU to ensue this inference can have 4+ bids.
I do not see how Gonzaga and VCU help at all given that the statement that Butler is nothing once
Stevens leaves would also aply to to VCU and Gonzaga. The conference is going to be slightly better than the Atlantic 10 is now. I suspect everyone here considers them mid-major and that may be. There is nothing we can do about it, since not having football will always make us a second rate conference.
Quote from: bilsu on December 23, 2012, 08:46:36 PM
since not having football will always make us a second rate conference.
YEAH, IT WOULD BE MUCH BETTER IF WE WERE IN A CONFERENCE WITH HOUSTON AND SMU!!! THEY PLAY FOOTBALL YOU KNOW!!!!
WORRY, WORRY, WORRY....
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 23, 2012, 08:20:35 PM
Spot on analysis. No reason to think that Gonzaga makes the conference significantly better than Dayton would.
you're both forgetting the biggest thing which is national eyeballs. Gonzaga routinely is one of the top selling hoops only collegiate brands in the country often outselling everyone except Georgetown (Marquette and Nova are the other schools that make the top 75 on a regular basis). Gonzaga is a national brand - Dayton is nice regional one. Butler is a national brand. Xavier is close to a national brand. This is what is important.
Quote from: Chili on December 23, 2012, 09:06:14 PM
you're both forgetting the biggest thing which is national eyeballs. Gonzaga routinely is one of the top selling hoops only collegiate brands in the country often outselling everyone except Georgetown (Marquette and Nova are the other schools that make the top 75 on a regular basis). Gonzaga is a national brand - Dayton is nice regional one. Butler is a national brand. Xavier is close to a national brand. This is what is important.
Really? Seriously? Tell me how good the WCC television contract is. Yeah, they sure bring a lot of eyes to the television because I have no trouble catching those Portland v. Pepperdine match ups on ESPN.
They are SUCH a national brand. They are DRIVING eyeballs to the television for those battles against the mighty Dons of San Francisco!!!!!
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 23, 2012, 09:11:32 PM
Really? Seriously? Tell me how good the WCC television contract is. Yeah, they sure bring a lot of eyes to the television because I have no trouble catching those Portland v. Pepperdine match ups on ESPN.
They are SUCH a national brand. They are DRIVING eyeballs to the television for those battles against the mighty Dons of San Francisco!!!!!
So you would argue that ND is not a national brand because they play in South Bend and Joyce Center barely hold 10,000.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on December 23, 2012, 09:13:31 PM
So you would argue that ND is not a national brand because they play in South Bend and Joyce Center barely hold 10,000.
So you would agree with me that the sky is orange and I piss Jack Daniels.
(See, I can make irrelevant statements too!!!)
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 23, 2012, 09:11:32 PM
Really? Seriously? Tell me how good the WCC television contract is. Yeah, they sure bring a lot of eyes to the television because I have no trouble catching those Portland v. Pepperdine match ups on ESPN.
They are SUCH a national brand. They are DRIVING eyeballs to the television for those battles against the mighty Dons of San Francisco!!!!!
Who said anything about WCC? I was talking about individual brands. Gonzaga is a national brand. Why do you think they get nationally televised games in the non conference?
You obviously do not understand the basis of marketing so I am not going to go into it, but you can read the rankings here of merchandise sales which is great measure of brand health (also means that people probably are going tune in watch them and advertisers will pay to be part of): http://www.clc.com/News/Archived-Rankings.aspx (http://www.clc.com/News/Archived-Rankings.aspx)
This league needs the best hoops brands possible. Gonzaga is a premiere brand. Dayton, SLU & VCU are not.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 23, 2012, 09:14:42 PM
So you would agree with me that the sky is orange and I piss Jack Daniels.
(See, I can make irrelevant statements too!!!)
Dude, if you can piss Jack Daniels I have an order I'd like to submit. :)
Quote from: Chili on December 23, 2012, 09:14:50 PM
Who said anything about WCC? I was talking about individual brands. Gonzaga is a national brand. Why do you think they get nationally televised games in the non conference?
Because they play a marquee non conference schedule. Every game MU plays against a decent team is on ESPN too. They don't add a great deal of value to their conference television contract. What make you think they would add significant value to this new conference? Because they are a "national brand?"
Yeah, because I see Gonzaga gear all over the place. It's all people can talk about around the water cooler...Zags basketball.
Some people have no clue....
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 23, 2012, 09:17:50 PM
Because they play a marquee non conference schedule. Every game MU plays against a decent team is on ESPN too. They don't add a great deal of value to their conference television contract. What make you think they would add significant value to this new conference? Because they are a "national brand?"
Yeah, because I see Gonzaga gear all over the place. It's all people can talk about around the water cooler...Zags basketball.
Some people have no clue....
Yes, you don't....you take it like you are the marketing / advertising savant who knows all but is really just throwing crap against solid numbers because he doesn't like what he sees. If you had an actually argument based on merit and fact rather opinion people might actually respect what you have to say on this topic. But rather, you come off looking like a person saying "no no you're wrong because I said so".
If Gonzaga wasn't a national brand they wouldn't be consistently in the top 75 schools in merchandise sales which typically only has 3-4 (if that) basketball only ones in it. Sorry my facts disprove your opinion.
Chili...you have no clue.
If Gonzaga was such a national brand, and being top 75 in merchandise sales is no indication of that, they would be helping the WCC get a better television contract. But they don't.
Would they be a better addition than Dayton? I have no idea. Really only the conference and potential media partners know this for sure. However the idea that Dayton makes the C7 a mid-major, while Gonzaga wouldn't, is a monumentally stupid thought.
Quote from: Chili on December 23, 2012, 09:25:24 PM
Yes, you don't....you take it like you are the marketing / advertising savant who knows all but is really just throwing crap against solid numbers because he doesn't like what he sees. If you had an actually argument based on merit and fact rather opinion people might actually respect what you have to say on this topic. But rather, you come off looking like a person saying "no no you're wrong because I said so".
Chili, Sultan is a self-described Dick and all his posts are designed to prove that description correct.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on December 23, 2012, 09:40:41 PM
Chili, Sultan is a self-described Dick and all his posts are designed to prove that description correct.
Oh Another....you are so DAMN CUTE when you get pissy!
Quote from: Tony Two Times on December 23, 2012, 04:32:51 PM
Dayton wears that mid-major cologne. That mid-major cologne. Who wants to breath that in?
Butler used to wear that cologne...so did Xavier...so did Gonzaga. There will always be some people that label schools that way, while others will say Northwestern is all that even though they have never been to the NCAA tournament. It's not about the conference they come from, it's about what they have done.
VCU seems committed, but it's a short run of committment so far. SLU has concerns, but if SLU and Dayton were to say they are willing to put $8 tp $10 million per year toward hoops, I would be fine adding them. It's ultimately about financial commitment.
Depending on who they are talking to, yes the potential media partner might be giving input. There is also the very real possibility they come up with a determined league and then shop their rights.
It's a bit of a chicken and egg. Let's not forget that media partner has to pay the freight so although they want good schools in there that are going to help carry the day, they also don't want to over play their hand.
Goes both ways.
CBB:
What's your thought about Gonzaga as a National Brand?
Quote from: Chili on December 23, 2012, 09:25:24 PM
Yes, you don't....you take it like you are the marketing / advertising savant who knows all but is really just throwing crap against solid numbers because he doesn't like what he sees. If you had an actually argument based on merit and fact rather opinion people might actually respect what you have to say on this topic. But rather, you come off looking like a person saying "no no you're wrong because I said so".
If Gonzaga wasn't a national brand they wouldn't be consistently in the top 75 schools in merchandise sales which typically only has 3-4 (if that) basketball only ones in it. Sorry my facts disprove your opinion.
The facts you've offered are of course open to interpretation. You remark that "national brand" schools are on that list of merchandise suppliers, and Gonzaga's inclusion bolsters their reputation as a national brand. I look at the same list and see several schools who no one would confuse with "national brands" not only on the list, but ranked ahead of Gonzaga. Schools like East Carolina, Central Florida, Texas State-San Marcos, and Louisiana-Lafayette. Tends to undercut the point.
Quote from: Buzz Williams' Spillproof Chiclets Cup on December 23, 2012, 10:40:42 PM
The facts you've offered are of course open to interpretation. You remark that "national brand" schools are on that list of merchandise suppliers, and Gonzaga's inclusion bolsters their reputation as a national brand. I look at the same list and see several schools who no one would confuse with "national brands" not only on the list, but ranked ahead of Gonzaga. Schools like East Carolina, Central Florida, Texas State-San Marcos, and Louisiana-Lafayette. Tends to undercut the point.
TEXAS-SAN MARCOS IS THE KEY TO THE CONFERENCE!!!!
Quote from: Buzz Williams' Spillproof Chiclets Cup on December 23, 2012, 08:11:38 PM
Television Exposure
Spokane's Nielsen rating is 73. They would be the second-lowest-ranked television market in the league. (No listing given for Providence, RI, presumably because they are considered part of the Boston media market).
1- New York (St. John's/Seton Hall)
3- Chicago (DePaul)
4- Philadelphia (Villanova)
7- Boston (Providence)
8- Washington, DC (Georgetown)
21- St. Louis (SLU)
26- Indianapolis (Butler)
34- Milwaukee (Marquette)
35- Cincinnati (Xavier)
63- Dayton (Dayton)
73- Spokane (Gonzaga)
75- Omaha (Creighton)
FYI, Providence is the #52 market--not considered part of Boston.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on December 23, 2012, 09:13:31 PM
So you would argue that ND is not a national brand because they play in South Bend and Joyce Center barely hold 10,000.
Why argue with Sultan. He's always right. He's always right.
Quote from: Chili on December 23, 2012, 09:06:14 PM
you're both forgetting the biggest thing which is national eyeballs. Gonzaga routinely is one of the top selling hoops only collegiate brands in the country often outselling everyone except Georgetown (Marquette and Nova are the other schools that make the top 75 on a regular basis). Gonzaga is a national brand - Dayton is nice regional one. Butler is a national brand. Xavier is close to a national brand. This is what is important.
This is correct. Gonzaga is a national brand. Anyhow, the Capo di tutti capi of ESPN will manage the velvet rope. That says Gonzaga is in. Gonzaga is in.
Quote from: Tony Two Times on December 24, 2012, 12:31:50 AM
This is correct. Gonzaga is a national brand. Anyhow, the Capo di tutti capi of ESPN will manage the velvet rope. That says Gonzaga is in. Gonzaga is in.
ESPN and the C7 are not even in discussions.
Quote from: Chili on December 23, 2012, 09:14:50 PM
Who said anything about WCC? I was talking about individual brands. Gonzaga is a national brand. Why do you think they get nationally televised games in the non conference?
You obviously do not understand the basis of marketing so I am not going to go into it, but you can read the rankings here of merchandise sales which is great measure of brand health (also means that people probably are going tune in watch them and advertisers will pay to be part of): http://www.clc.com/News/Archived-Rankings.aspx (http://www.clc.com/News/Archived-Rankings.aspx)
This league needs the best hoops brands possible. Gonzaga is a premiere brand. Dayton, SLU & VCU are not.
Well said. But you aint ever gonna change da know it all compare, capisce?
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 23, 2012, 09:40:04 PMIf Gonzaga was such a national brand, and being top 75 in merchandise sales is no indication of that, they would be helping the WCC get a better television contract. But they don't.
Would they be a better addition than Dayton? I have no idea. Really only the conference and potential media partners know this for sure. However the idea that Dayton makes the C7 a mid-major, while Gonzaga wouldn't, is a monumentally stupid thought.
First of all, when Gonzaga plays a marquee non-con schedule and gets on ESPN, that proves they ARE a national brand. Why? Because ESPN puts teams with national drawing power in those games. You don't see us playing Savannah State on national TV, even though they were conference champs last year. Gonzaga is absolutely a national brand as shown by their merchandise sales and presence on ESPN in November and December.
Talking about the WCC contract is a completely different topic. The reason Gonzaga gets on TV in the non-con is because they are a national brand playing against other national brands. They get on when they play Illinois, or K-State, or Notre Dame, or Butler. But the WCC doesn't have any other schools of that level. St. Mary's is it. How do you get a better TV contract, a national TV contract, when you have virtually no marketable content to sell? Why can't you see Portland/Pepperdine? Because the rest of that league sucks, and having one good school isn't enough to get the entire league a contract.
Put Gonzaga in a conference where they are playing Georgetown, Marquette, Villanova, St. John's, Xavier, and Butler on a weekly basis and they will draw eyes. Add in late-night tip-offs for triple-headers and you will increase the value of your content. Anyone acting like Gonzaga doesn't add value is being silly, and anyone with half a brain knows they add far more value than Dayton. How do I know this? Because when Gonzaga plays a Big East school in December it's on ESPN and when Dayton plays a Big East school in December it's on WHIO-7. The question is do they add ENOUGH value to offset the travel costs and time loss that both basketball and non-revenue sports will have to overcome in order to make those travels?
I don't know the answer to that. If the ADs and networks determine the answer to be yes, then by all means add Gonzaga. As for the ADs, Gonzaga's should be the main one involved in that decision as it impacts his SAs the most. But let's not pretend Dayton and Gonzaga on a marketing scale are somehow a wash. That's kooky talk.
brew, I am not arguing with any of that except for the "national brand" nonsense. My main complaint is this bizarre notion that Dayton makes the conference mid-major while Gonzaga doesn't. Gonzaga is pretty much the definition of mid-major. They play in a mid-major conference. They play in a mid-major gym. Now, they are a good mid-major program....but they are a mid-major nevertheless.
If the powers that be decide to add Dayton for whatever reason, then Dayton is fine. Between the C7, Xavier and Butler, you have enough firepower to overcome whatever baggage Dayton brings.
As I said before, I am of the mind that 14 teams are added eventually. If the brand of the conference is hoops, then the Zags are going to be insisted on by any media partner. As it is, the Zags are on The Mothership 16 times this season. If the Big East blows up, and the A10, MVC and the WCC are stripped of their best teams, you start to get the Mothership to pay a bit more attention and up the bidding war with Fox and NBC for their former most-valuable content. Let's face it, the Zags have been the best hoops team west of Lawrence KS recently,with UCLA, USC, UW and AZ being down for some time. SDS, BYU, Colorado are basically it...with St. Mary's who will need to be added as a travel partner.
The new Conference needs media content...and other Olympic sports teams. Heck, St. Mary's even has a women's lacrosse team. Say what you will, but teams like VCU, Dayton, Creighton, etc. add much needed non-revenue sport depth as well...not for a network but for reputation and to stem image/prestige loss or even add streaming content. If you forget these sports, they will bleed hoops even more. MU's women's basketball actually makes a profit, for example, and recruiting will suffer. Some of the hoops schools proposed significantly lower RPI's in these other sports to the point where the new conference would actually be a LOW major at 10 teams in the other sports.
Plenty of things to be settled...better to add slowly...but it starts with the media deal...and ends with the loose ends not even being discussed yet.
The silliest thing in this thread is the suggestion that Butler is toast the second Stevens leaves for a better job.
Um ... how about if Butler hires an even better coach/recruiter/personality? It happens all the time. Hell, it happened at Marquette after a certain tanned wonder left.
Only a goofball would choose or not choose a program based on who might or might not be coaching there 1, 3, 5 or 10 years down the line.
MU82
All I suggest on Butler is the odds are stacked against him when it is time for new hire. I would be very patient as AD before I hooked up the train to Butler. They are going nowhere and that conversation can be had down the road to add them or not.
Honestly I would be working every backroom deal I could with elite conference and see what falls out. Odds might not be good for hitching on with ACC, Big 10 or other top conference but I think it is worth every ounce of energy. We have a fallback plan and that is great. I am pretty sure GU is looking at this as fallback plan and I agree with that thought process.
Goose, the B1G, ACC, B12, and SEC are not coming calling. They look at the hybrid concept of the BEast as a cautionary tale, not as something to be emulated. This is the right move for MU and the rest of the C7. Grab Butler, X, and either 1 or 3 more. That gives markets, stability, product, and freedom from the vicissitudes of football re-alignment. There are no backroom deals.
Quote from: tower912 on December 24, 2012, 08:22:05 AM
Goose, the B1G, ACC, B12, and SEC are not coming calling. They look at the hybrid concept of the BEast as a cautionary tale, not as something to be emulated. This is the right move for MU and the rest of the C7. Grab Butler, X, and either 1 or 3 more. That gives markets, stability, product, and freedom from the vicissitudes of football re-alignment. There are no backroom deals.
Exactly. If it hasn't happened already with Georgetown, it certainly won't happen with Marquette. People need to get the basketball-only idea out of their head. It makes no sense.
Quote from: MU82 on December 24, 2012, 08:07:02 AM
The silliest thing in this thread is the suggestion that Butler is toast the second Stevens leaves for a better job.
Um ... how about if Butler hires an even better coach/recruiter/personality? It happens all the time. Hell, it happened at Marquette after a certain tanned wonder left.
Only a goofball would choose or not choose a program based on who might or might not be coaching there 1, 3, 5 or 10 years down the line.
Butler has had a sustained run with Collier, Matta, Licklighter and Stevens. There is no reason to suggest that wouldn't continue, especially since the school site in the middle of a talent-rich state. Furthermore, if Stevens hasn't left before, he certainly is going to look twice when the school is part of the C7.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 24, 2012, 08:31:01 AM
Butler has had a sustained run with Collier, Matta, Licklighter and Stevens. There is no reason to suggest that wouldn't continue, especially since the school site in the middle of a talent-rich state. Furthermore, if Stevens hasn't left before, he certainly is going to look twice when the school is part of the C7.
Both Butler and Gonzaga have had sustained success since 1997. And yet you denigrate the Zags while praise Butler. Facts can hurt. facts can hurt.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 24, 2012, 08:31:01 AM
Butler has had a sustained run with Collier, Matta, Licklighter and Stevens. There is no reason to suggest that wouldn't continue, especially since the school site in the middle of a talent-rich state. Furthermore, if Stevens hasn't left before, he certainly is going to look twice when the school is part of the C7.
Excellent points, Sultan.
Ignoring Butler because Stevens might leave would have been like the Big East not inviting Marquette because Crean might leave.
Quote from: MU82 on December 24, 2012, 09:01:51 AM
Excellent points, Sultan.
Ignoring Butler because Stevens might leave would have been like the Big East not inviting Marquette because Crean might leave.
Ignoring the Zags cause Few might leave would be the same. Would be the same.
I never denigrated Gonzaga Warthog. But I am not going to sing the praises of a Gonzaga as if that's the ticket to conference success. That has been my point from the beginning of this debate...simply having Dayton doesn't make the C7 "mid-major" versus having the Zags.
Furthermore I will point out that Butler's success (and Xaviers) has been much greater than Gonzaga's over the past decade.
If Stevens is destined to replace Coach K at Duke, Butler cannot stop him.
But if Butler is elevated to the C7, and the C7 is considered a high major conference, then Stevens list of schools he bolts to shrinks a lot.
If the C7 is "real" then Stevens might not look at Purdue if they fire Painter after more struggles or Louisville when Rick has bent his last waitress over a table.
Blind resume should be an insightful exercise when discussing programs who are good gets for the new conference, and programs who are horrible mid-majors who will only drag the league down.
Program A
KenPom Rank: 45
All-time NCAA Appearances: 7
NCAA Appearances since 1990: 5
Sweet 16 Appearances: 2
NCAA Tournament record: 4-7
Enrollment: 13,785
Basketball arena capacity: 10,600
Program B
KenPom Rank: 42
All-time NCAA Appearances: 7
NCAA Appearances since 1990: 5
Sweet 16 Appearances: 2
NCAA Tournament record: 3-7
Enrollment: 4,000
Basketball arena capacity: 3,500
So who brings more to the table? Pretty similar resumes? Well, Program A is Saint Louis, and Program B is St. Mary's.
So if you think St. Mary's would make a great travel partner for Gonzaga in the new league, but think Saint Louis is a mid-major who will drag down the whole conference, you must concede that being a travel partner for Gonzaga is the ONLY thing that St. Mary's brings to the table that SLU doesn't.
Another excellent point...and I'm not sure how useful it is for a school in Spokane to have a travel partner in the Bay Area.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 24, 2012, 08:31:01 AM
Butler has had a sustained run with Collier, Matta, Licklighter and Stevens. There is no reason to suggest that wouldn't continue, especially since the school site in the middle of a talent-rich state. Furthermore, if Stevens hasn't left before, he certainly is going to look twice when the school is part of the C7.
Butler's "sustained" run with Collier, Matta and Licklighter: 6 NCAA appearances in 18 years, 5 NCAA wins. Stevens: 4 NCAA appearances in 5 years, 11 NCAA wins. That's slightly above average mid major to a powerhouse.
Gonzaga has made 14 straight NCAA tournaments and in that time has 17 tournament wins - borderline elite, most consistent program this side of Duke.
Conclusion: Butler is elite with Stevens but was never anything like that before. Gonzaga was Elite 8 the year before Few (Monson) and 14 years of actual sustained excellence make it more likely (IMO) that Few stays put - and that if he doesn't the Zags are on firmer ground than the Bulldogs.
If I'm the C7, these 2 (with Xavier) are my top 3 targets and #4 isn't close.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 24, 2012, 09:37:21 AM
Another excellent point...and I'm not sure how useful it is for a school in Spokane to have a travel partner in the Bay Area.
They're only 900 miles apart, makes total sense.
Might as well invite New Orleans to be Marquette's travel partner.
Quote from: PTM on December 24, 2012, 09:51:54 AM
They're only 900 miles apart, makes total sense.
Might as well invite New Orleans to be Marquette's travel partner.
I think we can all agree that St Mary's isn't a logical "travel partner" for Gonzaga.
My question is why the frack does Gonzaga need a "travel partner" to join the C7?
Quote from: Goose on December 24, 2012, 08:18:49 AM
MU82
All I suggest on Butler is the odds are stacked against him when it is time for new hire. I would be very patient as AD before I hooked up the train to Butler. They are going nowhere and that conversation can be had down the road to add them or not.
Honestly I would be working every backroom deal I could with elite conference and see what falls out. Odds might not be good for hitching on with ACC, Big 10 or other top conference but I think it is worth every ounce of energy. We have a fallback plan and that is great. I am pretty sure GU is looking at this as fallback plan and I agree with that thought process.
Stop this stupid dream. It's amazing how everyone here says MU is "big time" or "major" or whatever but apparently can't stand the idea of joining a conference with a bunch of Marquette-level programs.
Stop crapping on this conference simply because it doesn't include who ESPN college football analysts tells you who's mportant.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 24, 2012, 10:01:57 AM
I think we can all agree that St Mary's isn't a logical "travel partner" for Gonzaga.
My question is why the frack does Gonzaga need a "travel partner" to join the C7?
Agreed. Plane flight is a plane flight. Who cares about wb extra hour.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 24, 2012, 10:01:57 AM
I think we can all agree that St Mary's isn't a logical "travel partner" for Gonzaga.
My question is why the frack does Gonzaga need a "travel partner" to join the C7?
Agreed. It's not like WCC is made up of a bunch of schools within driving distance. They have to fly everywhere.
Though I do think they'll have to go divisions though (at least for scheduling) to mitigate the amount of cross-country trips.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 24, 2012, 10:01:57 AM
I think we can all agree that St Mary's isn't a logical "travel partner" for Gonzaga.
My question is why the frack does Gonzaga need a "travel partner" to join the C7?
For non-revenue sports coming from the East. St. Mary's on Thursday or Friday and Spokane on Saturday or Sunday. One charter plane, minimal disruption, one set of tutors and training staff, lower costs. For example, Syracuse and Milwaukee are travel partners now in the BE. So, if Gonzaga added for hoops and others then it makes more economic and SA sense to add another Western school in the same time zone.
Not to mention it opens up the Bay Area for media, time zone games, and sports and admissions recruiting presence. That is why you need a travel partner...to again keep non-revenue costs down to not bleed the hoops program more than it does. In the current BE, Seton Hall, SJU, Rutgers, UCONN could be paired...as can Pitt and Nova or Temple...UND and DePaul were paired. That is the frack why.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 23, 2012, 08:20:35 PM
Spot on analysis. No reason to think that Gonzaga makes the conference significantly better than Dayton would.
Except in terms of quality of the basketball. But that can't matter all that much right?
Quote from: Aughnanure on December 24, 2012, 10:07:40 AM
Agreed. It's not like WCC is made up of a bunch of schools within driving distance. They have to fly everywhere.
Though I do think they'll have to go divisions though (at least for scheduling) to mitigate the amount of cross-country trips.
Not if it's a geographically compact league. IMHO there's very little to be gained by this league going west of Omaha. More blind resume time!
Program ANCAA Appearances: 14
Sweet 16s: 6
NCAA Record: 14-16
Nielsen Market: 63
Enrollment: 10,068
Basketball arena capacity: 13,435
Program BNCAA Appearances: 15
Sweet 16s: 5
NCAA Record: 17-15
Nielsen Market: 73
Enrollment: 7,764
Basketball arena capacity: 6,000
Program A is Dayton, and Program B is Gonzaga.
Go Dayton!
Aughnanure
I dream in the daytime and will continue doing so. MU has had stumbling blocks in the past a strong leadership made for positive steps forward. I am not going to sit back in MU basketball discussion and go along with the best option in bad case situation. You can chase mid majors and that is your right, but please do not bash me because I hold MU in high regard. If you think SLU, Dayton, Butler and Creighton's of the world are on par programs that is where our disagreement starts.
Funny thing is I said months ago MU knows their fan base and I would say you are target backer of the program. I will support MU regardless of conference but not ready to throw white towel in the air and jump in mid major conference. Trust me...I have dreamed my life and not going to stop today.
Merry Christmas!!
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 23, 2012, 08:51:28 PM
YEAH, IT WOULD BE MUCH BETTER IF WE WERE IN A CONFERENCE WITH HOUSTON AND SMU!!! THEY PLAY FOOTBALL YOU KNOW!!!!
WORRY, WORRY, WORRY....
I think you are missing the big picture. The C7 does not need football to be a very good basketball conference. However, the SEC, Big 10, Big 12, Pac 10 and ACC will always be considered a cut above the C7 even if the C7 has better basketball. These conferences get a tremendous amount of TV exposure during the first 2 /1/2 months of football season, while the C7 will be getting none. While Big East football was never something I got excited about, at least the football gave them some TV exposure.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on December 24, 2012, 10:25:01 AM
For non-revenue sports coming from the East. St. Mary's on Thursday or Friday and Spokane on Saturday or Sunday. One charter plane, minimal disruption, one set of tutors and training staff, lower costs. For example, Syracuse and Milwaukee are travel partners now in the BE. So, if Gonzaga added for hoops and others then it makes more economic and SA sense to add another Western school in the same time zone.
Not to mention it opens up the Bay Area for media, time zone games, and sports and admissions recruiting presence. That is why you need a travel partner...to again keep non-revenue costs down to not bleed the hoops program more than it does. In the current BE, Seton Hall, SJU, Rutgers, UCONN could be paired...as can Pitt and Nova or Temple...UND and DePaul were paired. That is the frack why.
Whip I agreed that Gonzaga doesn't "Need" a Trevor partner, I agree expanding west does present some valuable opportunities - especially for TV.
St. Mary's, LMU, San Fran, BYU and Pepperdine all could be viable. But I still see this expansion (incl Gonzaga) as a something that is down the road.
Quote from: Goose on December 24, 2012, 10:52:04 AM
Aughnanure
I dream in the daytime and will continue doing so. MU has had stumbling blocks in the past a strong leadership made for positive steps forward. I am not going to sit back in MU basketball discussion and go along with the best option in bad case situation. You can chase mid majors and that is your right, but please do not bash me because I hold MU in high regard. If you think SLU, Dayton, Butler and Creighton's of the world are on par programs that is where our disagreement starts.
Funny thing is I said months ago MU knows their fan base and I would say you are target backer of the program. I will support MU regardless of conference but not ready to throw white towel in the air and jump in mid major conference. Trust me...I have dreamed my life and not going to stop today
Merry Christmas!!
And you live in a pessimistic fantasy world and I will continue to attack when all I hear is unconstructive bulls*** about who we are. Dream all you want but stop this 'world is ending' tripe because you think Creighton is not worthy. That's a small minded fearful response that is simply wrong on all grounds related to program performance.
This is also not the only issue where your paranoia and worry dominate your contributions to discussion.
Quote from: Goose on December 24, 2012, 10:52:04 AM
Aughnanure
I dream in the daytime and will continue doing so. MU has had stumbling blocks in the past a strong leadership made for positive steps forward. I am not going to sit back in MU basketball discussion and go along with the best option in bad case situation. You can chase mid majors and that is your right, but please do not bash me because I hold MU in high regard. If you think SLU, Dayton, Butler and Creighton's of the world are on par programs that is where our disagreement starts.
Funny thing is I said months ago MU knows their fan base and I would say you are target backer of the program. I will support MU regardless of conference but not ready to throw white towel in the air and jump in mid major conference. Trust me...I have dreamed my life and not going to stop today.
Merry Christmas!!
Wow you seem a little too elitist of a person to be from Marquette. But in any case Butler is a good program as is Creighton, not going to say they are elite but it takes time and people to believe in you in order to build a program, before McGuire we had what 4 truly successful years and yet he built us up, before O'Neil we only had those McGuire years and the handful in the 50s, but people believed in us and we built up a program. You can't dismiss a program because they don't have some extremely long strand of success. Butler has had as much as anybody recently and deserves to be in the conversation, same with X, same with creighton. Dayton and SLU can bugger off.
Aughnanure
How am I paranoid on the conference? To date I support LW and what he has done. We have, on paper, two years to figure out conference. I would think we should have two lists and the second list is full of mid majors. I would think Dayton, SLU or Creighton would jump at anytime to be better conference, so need to rush things. I actually have some confidence that our leaders do have two lists and are reaching for the stars first.
If saying MU is higher in basketball world than Dayton, Creighton or SLU is unconstructive bullshit I think you are off target. I have no problem with anything that has been reported regarding the conference. None of the reports I have seen is an effort to lower our conference to mid major.
All I know is ten years I never would have thought MU would someday be in the BE and four years ago I never thought BE would bust up. BE bust up because other opportunities presented itself to some members and I am fine with that. I still think we have opportunities out there.
Goose, no other conferences are going to the failed BEast hybrid model. In other words, no one is going to add basketball only schools to their football conference. If you accept that, what better options are out there? Or do you honestly believe the football conferences are going to add basketball-only schools?
I always wondered what real denial looked like but Goose with conference realignment is a classic example.
Quote from: Goose on December 24, 2012, 11:38:38 AM
Aughnanure
How am I paranoid on the conference? To date I support LW and what he has done. We have, on paper, two years to figure out conference. I would think we should have two lists and the second list is full of mid majors. I would think Dayton, SLU or Creighton would jump at anytime to be better conference, so need to rush things. I actually have some confidence that our leaders do have two lists and are reaching for the stars first.
If saying MU is higher in basketball world than Dayton, Creighton or SLU is unconstructive bullcrap I think you are off target. I have no problem with anything that has been reported regarding the conference. None of the reports I have seen is an effort to lower our conference to mid major.
All I know is ten years I never would have thought MU would someday be in the BE and four years ago I never thought BE would bust up. BE bust up because other opportunities presented itself to some members and I am fine with that. I still think we have opportunities out there.
Again, who are the "stars"?
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on December 24, 2012, 12:13:57 PM
I always wondered what real denial looked like but Goose with conference realignment is a classic example.
+1
Tower
You might be correct but I do think any effort is worth the effort. If nothing happens in that direction,nothing happens. I would rather be hearing upside discussions to Dayton in or out debates. Nothing surprises me anymore and I definitely would not be shocked in Georgetown ultimately is not part of this conference.
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on December 24, 2012, 11:36:34 AM
Wow you seem a little too elitist of a person to be from Marquette.
My wife thinks that everyone who went to Marquette is an elitist.
We always chirp about our top notch basketball budget, do you really think big time boosters will throw same money when new conference is formed? Not in denial at all, just know no need to rush.
What I've learned from his thread:
1) Dayton bad? No, Dayton good.
2) No, Dayton bad. Gonzaga good.
3) No, Gonzaga no badder or gooder than Dayton.
4) Spectrum of infinite points require dichotomous comparison of any combination of two teams within spectrum.
5) St. Mary's? Meh... Pterodactyl flight is pterodactyl flight.
6) Always worship all knowing TV contract in sky.
7) Me forget.... Dayton bad or good?
8) You forget St Louis? Yes, good idea.
9) Wait... Good idea forget or good idea St Louis?
Moral of thread: Freeze self in ice, wait million years, come back to yet unresolved thread later.
Quote from: CaptainAwesome on December 24, 2012, 12:23:30 PM
My wife thinks that everyone who went to Marquette is an elitist.
Why? Because Marquette is ranked #83 among National Universities by US News? Exclusive? Elitist?
Other Academic Rankings:
Dayton: #113 National
Creighton: #1 Regional Univ (Midwest)
Gonzaga: #4 Regional Univ (West)
SLU: #92 National
BYU: #68 National
Memphis: #227 National
VCU: #170 National
Richmond: #28 National Liberal Arts
UMass: #97 National
Cincy: #139 National
UL: #160 National
UConn: #63 National
Loyola (Chi): #106 National
Notre Dame: #17 National
Kansas: #106 National
Indiana: #83 National (Tied with Marquette)
Michigan: #16 National
Northwestern: #12 National
Wisconsin: #41 National (How the Eff do they call themselves the "Harvard of the Midwest"???)
Looks like Marquette is rather comfortably settled in with most of the Catholic schools under consideration. All good, not great schools. And certainly better than Cincy, Louisville, Memphis, VCU, et al
Quote from: Goose on December 24, 2012, 12:26:48 PM
We always chirp about our top notch basketball budget, do you really think big time boosters will throw same money when new conference is formed? Not in denial at all, just know no need to rush.
We are not rushing ... we are in the BE this year and next. The new conference starts in 2 years. But first we need to hire a commissioner, hire conference staff, lease conference offices (what city? NYC?) form by-laws, pick new members and set schedules for all the sports. To do all this is JUST two years will be a breakneck pace. Oh, and negotiate a TV deal with Fox, NBC and/or ESPN.
I would not be surprised if C7 starts in three years given everything that goes into starting a new conference (but I'm not predicting it, just would not be surprised.)
I call marquette the harvard of the midwest. I call any school I'm talking about the harvard of x. Ots the same way I claimed, at one time or another, poker, croquet, boxing, soccer, and hunting to be "the sport of kings."
Quote from: boyonthedock on December 24, 2012, 01:04:33 PM
I call marquette the harvard of the midwest. I call any school I'm talking about the harvard of x. Ots the same way I claimed, at one time or another, poker, croquet, boxing, soccer, and hunting to be "the sport of kings."
I know William fancies a rousing game of cribbage while Harry, being the more sporty of the two, favors both polo and cricket. In that way these pastimes may indeed be called the sports of princes.
You forgot - The first step in Marquette becoming SLU is to join a conference with SLU.
Quote from: Benny B on December 24, 2012, 12:53:00 PM
What I've learned from his thread:
1) Dayton bad? No, Dayton good.
2) No, Dayton bad. Gonzaga good.
3) No, Gonzaga no badder or gooder than Dayton.
4) Spectrum of infinite points require dichotomous comparison of any combination of two teams within spectrum.
5) St. Mary's? Meh... Pterodactyl flight is pterodactyl flight.
6) Always worship all knowing TV contract in sky.
7) Me forget.... Dayton bad or good?
8) You forget St Louis? Yes, good idea.
9) Wait... Good idea forget or good idea St Louis?
Moral of thread: Freeze self in ice, wait million years, come back to yet unresolved thread later.
Quote from: Buzz Williams' Spillproof Chiclets Cup on December 23, 2012, 04:31:58 PM
I doubt there will be divisions if only because
1.) The Midwestern schools will want the east coast exposure through mirror games, rather than only playing in any given East Coast market every other year because they've got to pick up a mirror game with Dayton or SLU.
2.) Remember, kids, the Big East had 16 teams and no divisions.
3.) In fact, no high-level Division I Conference has divisions. Some allocate their schedules as if there were divisions, or seed their conference tournaments according to divisions, but the Big 10, Pac-12, SEC and ACC all treat their league standings as if it were a single table. If you're going to have divisions it has to mean something
4.) If you look at the likely teams and split it geographically, the divisions would likely split up Xavier and Dayton, only by virtue of the fact that there are 5 schools along I-95, and most of the other rumored teams are west of there.
X and Butler would appear to be locks. Dayton as well, given their rivalry with Xavier. That gets you to 10. Creighton would appear to be the lead contender for Spot #11, and while there's no doubt that Gonzaga surpasses SLU in basketball quality and sustained success, I don't want to add a school like St. Mary's or Loyola Marymount or whatever to get them. (Full disclosure: I got my J.D. at SLU.)
The format I see emerging is a 12 team league, with no divisions, and if I had to take a stab at membership, it would be Marquette, DePaul, SLU, Georgetown, Creighton, Butler, Seton Hall, Villanova, Dayton, Xavier, St. John's, and Providence.
Play everyone once. 7 mirror games that rotate through the league, so at most, any team would never miss out on trips to a certain market in consecutive years.
No divisions for basketball. All other sports could have divisions to mitigate travel expenses.
Has anybody explained what the hell a "travel partner" is and why it's needed? Are advocates of it saying that St. Mary's and Gonzaga should share a plane? Are advocates of it saying the East coast schools should play two teams every time they go to the West coast (by the way, this logic would be incorrect because it would make more sense to choose a school within 900 miles of your home location than a school 900 miles from Spokane)? Are advocates saying St. Mary's needs to be added for the two times per year Gonzaga could play St. Mary's?
Help me understand the logic behind St. Mary's as a "travel partner."
Quote from: CaptainAwesome on December 24, 2012, 12:23:30 PM
My wife thinks that everyone who went to Marquette is an elitist.
Where did she go? Cause I only see us as elitist towards schools like DePaul Dayton and Loyola Chicago but humble with Notre Dame Boston College and Georgetown
Quote from: Mufflers on December 24, 2012, 02:31:19 PM
Has anybody explained what the hell a "travel partner" is and why it's needed? Are advocates of it saying that St. Mary's and Gonzaga should share a plane? Are advocates of it saying the East coast schools should play two teams every time they go to the West coast (by the way, this logic would be incorrect because it would make more sense to choose a school within 900 miles of your home location than a school 900 miles from Spokane)? Are advocates saying St. Mary's needs to be added for the two times per year Gonzaga could play St. Mary's?
Help me understand the logic behind St. Mary's as a "travel partner."
I explained it in the middle of this thread. : http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=35061.msg432049#msg432049
I will try again...if Marquette women's soccer is playing in a 14 team conference and is put in the West Division....then it can play a St. Mary's on Friday night after flying out Thursday after classes on a private charter with one flight crew one set of academic and support staff. They stay in a hotel in the East Bay Thursday and Friday nights. Wake up Saturday AM and the same plane and flight crew flies from Oakland to Spokane. Stay in a hotel in Spokane Saturday night...play an afternoon game Sunday and fly back Sunday night, buying fuel in the cheaper State of Washington. Two road games, one lost day of school, one weekend away, one road trip for a tight support staff who has to also support other teams another weekend.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on December 24, 2012, 02:55:18 PM
I explained it in the middle of this thread. : http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=35061.msg432049#msg432049
I will try again...if Marquette women's soccer is playing in a 14 team conference and is put in the West Division....then it can play a St. Mary's on Friday night after flying out Thursday after classes on a private charter with one flight crew one set of academic and support staff. They stay in a hotel in the East Bay Thursday and Friday nights. Wake up Saturday AM and the same plane and flight crew flies from Oakland to Spokane. Stay in a hotel in Spokane Saturday night...play an afternoon game Sunday and fly back Sunday night, buying fuel in the cheaper State of Washington. Two road games, one lost day of school, one weekend away, one road trip for a tight support staff who has to also support other teams another weekend.
MKE to Spokane to Oakland to MKE = 4,030 miles
MKE to Spokane to Omaha to MKE = 3,782 miles
Why wouldn't Creighton be a better "travel partner?"
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on December 24, 2012, 02:55:18 PM
I explained it in the middle of this thread. : http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=35061.msg432049#msg432049
I will try again...if Marquette women's soccer is playing in a 14 team conference and is put in the West Division....then it can play a St. Mary's on Friday night after flying out Thursday after classes on a private charter with one flight crew one set of academic and support staff. They stay in a hotel in the East Bay Thursday and Friday nights. Wake up Saturday AM and the same plane and flight crew flies from Oakland to Spokane. Stay in a hotel in Spokane Saturday night...play an afternoon game Sunday and fly back Sunday night, buying fuel in the cheaper State of Washington. Two road games, one lost day of school, one weekend away, one road trip for a tight support staff who has to also support other teams another weekend.
The soccer team is not taking a charter to St. Mary's at a cost of 50,000 one way.
The are taking a bus to midway airport in Chicago only to find their southwest flight is hours late, eat greasy food, fly all night ony to lose, the slep to the airport to take Alaska air to Spokane only to find their reservations are fouled up and the gate agent really doesn't care. Another night of traveling, lost luggage, borrowed uniforms and then back to midway in the middle of rush hour for a three and a half hour bus ride back to MU.
Welcome to a conference that stretches 3000 miles.
Quote from: Mufflers on December 24, 2012, 03:20:32 PM
MKE to Spokane to Oakland to MKE = 4,030 miles
MKE to Spokane to Omaha to MKE = 3,782 miles
Why wouldn't Creighton be a better "travel partner?"
They could...but that is two time zones with a long travel day to Spokane after playing Friday night in Omaha only to fly back. Not great for performance or academics. Again, this is predicated on adding Gonzaga as the best basketball option and all sports. If it goes to 14, then Creighton's travel partner would be SLU...and St. Mary's would be needed. These are the two schools they are looking at...but the non-revenue cost issue is a major issue to be considered as I am saying.
Btw, MU is flying out West to play St. Mary's in lacrosse already this Spring. Also, Syracuse as a BE travel partner with MU, is almost 800 air miles one way. Not ideal either.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on December 24, 2012, 03:28:11 PM
The soccer team is not taking a charter to St. Mary's at a cost of 50,000 one way.
The are taking a bus to midway airport in Chicago only to find their southwest flight is hours late, eat greasy food, fly all night ony to lose, the slep to the airport to take Alaska air to Spokane only to find their reservations are fouled up and the gate agent really doesn't care. Another night of traveling, lost luggage, borrowed uniforms and then back to midway in the middle of rush hour for a three and a half hour bus ride back to MU.
Welcome to a conference that stretches 3000 miles.
Has to be charter or it won't work. MU will have to buy into charter time share...not to mention the East Coast schools in all this. Non-revenue sports is big issue for this proposed conference...cost, quality, and SA performance. Has to be a big blocker for going Far West to add. Go slow.
http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/college/basketball/game_of_name_in_big_east_split_Z8tWWS17CNrVQYweK2jPQK/1
Pretty good article. His sources say that Gonzaga/St Mary's are cost prohibitive. Also floats George Mason instead of Creighton.
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on December 24, 2012, 02:39:14 PM
Where did she go? Cause I only see us as elitist towards schools like DePaul Dayton and Loyola Chicago but humble with Notre Dame Boston College and Georgetown
Undergrad @ St. Cloud St.
Masters @ Oklahoma
Post-Masters @ UWM
MKE to Spokane to Dayton to MKE = 3,659 miles
If the team plays on a Friday, travels on a Saturday, plays on a Sunday, and travels back Sunday night, I don't think it will have that much impact on academics or performance. Clearly, I don't agree with the "travel partner" logic. Hell, make Marquette or DePaul the traveling partner with Gonzaga and stop at 10 teams. I'll take a couple tired visitors to the BMO Harris BC.
Wait a second, are we talking about one weekend per year for each of our teams? How many teams do we have, eight? Wouldn't one weekend for eight teams be worth the addition to the new conference's reputation?
Quote from: Mufflers on December 24, 2012, 03:45:38 PM
MKE to Spokane to Dayton to MKE = 3,659 miles
If the team plays on a Friday, travels on a Saturday, plays on a Sunday, and travels back Sunday night, I don't think it will have that much impact on academics or performance. Clearly, I don't agree with the "travel partner" logic. Hell, make Marquette or DePaul the traveling partner with Gonzaga and stop at 10 teams. I'll take a couple tired visitors to the BMO Harris BC.
And traverse four time zones to play?...CST to EST and flying from EST passing over CST, Mountain to then to Pacific? Only to fly back to CST to wake up for 8AM class and daily workouts? Yeah, the SA won't be impacted at all under that scenario.
Again, as this thread is diluted...Gonzaga is seriously being considered for this reason only: the media partner and their $$ offer MAY dictate it as they are the best West Coast hoops school.
Ten could work...for hoops...but MU has other sports and the C7 doesn't offer all the same ones....and if they do, they mostly suck except Gtown, affecting RPI, coaches, quality, post-season and thus seriously draining dollars away from basketball. MU Olympics sports have flourished in the BE because of the conference prestige and level of conference play.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on December 24, 2012, 04:01:15 PM
Again, as this thread is diluted...Gonzaga is seriously being considered for this reason only: the media partner and their $$ offer MAY dictate it as they are the best West Coast hoops school.
Lots of posters, so maybe it is diluted. But it also might be deluded.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on December 24, 2012, 03:41:26 PM
Has to be charter or it won't work. MU will have to buy into charter time share...not to mention the East Coast schools in all this. Non-revenue sports is big issue for this proposed conference...cost, quality, and SA performance. Has to be a big blocker for going Far West to add. Go slow.
That will run into the hundreds of thousands.
Quote from: CaptainAwesome on December 24, 2012, 03:45:01 PM
Undergrad @ St. Cloud St.
Masters @ Oklahoma
Post-Masters @ UWM
Academic Rankings
Marquette: #83 National
St. Cloud State: #93 Regional (Midwest)
Oklahoma: #101 National
UWM: Not Ranked
I can see why she sees MU alums as elitist
Quote from: tower912 on December 24, 2012, 03:44:26 PM
http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/college/basketball/game_of_name_in_big_east_split_Z8tWWS17CNrVQYweK2jPQK/1
Pretty good article. His sources say that Gonzaga/St Mary's are cost prohibitive. Also floats George Mason instead of Creighton.
Well that makes no sense.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on December 24, 2012, 04:56:54 PM
That will run into the hundreds of thousands.
One trip for 25 on the multiple leg at $42k on a turbo prop to Oakland then Spokane and then back to Milwaukee...for five team sports for one trip each, it is a bit north of $200k...balanced versus current charter costs and extra media revenue from the current deal by adding Gonzaga. Pretty sure MU and its business friends can beat the price estimate too.
Another, I know you fly in style with all your cash...but I am sure the Stones don't even fly in your league. ;)
http://www.avchart.com/users/quotes/passenger-request.asp?chtype=Multi-Leg&passengers=25&leg1from=KMKE&l1frcity=Milwaukee%2FGeneral+Mi%2C+WI&leg1to=KOAK&l1tocity=Oakland%2FMetropolitan%2C+CA&deparr1=Depart&hour1=4%3A00+PM&date1=01%2F17%2F2013&leg2from=KOAK&l2frcity=Oakland%2FMetropolitan%2C+CA&leg2to=KGEG&l2tocity=Spokane%2FIntl%2C+WA&deparr2=Depart&hour2=4%3A00+PM&date2=01%2F20%2F2013&ln=2
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on December 24, 2012, 10:02:54 PM
One trip for 25 on the multiple leg at $42k on a turbo prop to Oakland then Spokane and then back to Milwaukee...for five team sports for one trip each, it is a bit north of $200k...balanced versus current charter costs and extra media revenue from the current deal by adding Gonzaga. Pretty sure MU and its business friends can beat the price estimate too.
Another, I know you fly in style with all your cash...but I am sure the Stones don't even fly in your league. ;)
http://www.avchart.com/users/quotes/passenger-request.asp?chtype=Multi-Leg&passengers=25&leg1from=KMKE&l1frcity=Milwaukee%2FGeneral+Mi%2C+WI&leg1to=KOAK&l1tocity=Oakland%2FMetropolitan%2C+CA&deparr1=Depart&hour1=4%3A00+PM&date1=01%2F17%2F2013&leg2from=KOAK&l2frcity=Oakland%2FMetropolitan%2C+CA&leg2to=KGEG&l2tocity=Spokane%2FIntl%2C+WA&deparr2=Depart&hour2=4%3A00+PM&date2=01%2F20%2F2013&ln=2
For the Soccer team and all others that travel with them, you need a plane that seats 40. Not a 6 seat turboprop.
That is going to cost a lot more than my Marquis Card rates.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on December 24, 2012, 11:28:33 PM
For the Soccer team and all others that travel with them, you need a plane that seats 40. Not a 6 seat turboprop.
That is going to cost a lot more than my Marquis Card rates.
It is a large turbo prop jet that holds 50...most likely the travel squad are the ones that go anyway.
http://www.avchart.com/quotes/charter-type-details.asp?actypeid=4
Quote from: keefe on December 24, 2012, 04:59:43 PM
Academic Rankings
St. Cloud State: #93 Regional (Midwest)
That seems high, in the late 90s they let you in if you filled out the application correctly. That's not a joke.
Quote from: tower912 on December 24, 2012, 03:44:26 PM
http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/college/basketball/game_of_name_in_big_east_split_Z8tWWS17CNrVQYweK2jPQK/1
Pretty good article. His sources say that Gonzaga/St Mary's are cost prohibitive. Also floats George Mason instead of Creighton.
The team I want the most is Creighton. Creighton is the reason why I grew up on MU basketball. My father graduated from Creighton in 1940. He decided to get MU season tickets when MU hired Eddie Hickey, who was coach at Creighton when my father was there. Also my uncle Bernard Portz SJ, who also taught at MUHS, was a math and music professor at Creighton. By the way bilsu the current holder of those season tickets that go back to 1956 was season ticket holder of the game for the LSU game.
Quote from: esotericmindguy on December 25, 2012, 12:08:00 PM
That seems high, in the late 90s they let you in if you filled out the application correctly. That's not a joke.
The key there is that it is a "regional" ranking while Marquette's is a national ranking.
Quote from: newsdrms on December 25, 2012, 12:15:50 PM
The key there is that it is a "regional" ranking while Marquette's is a national ranking.
I'm aware, still seems high...
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 23, 2012, 09:16:02 PM
Dude, if you can piss Jack Daniels I have an order I'd like to submit. :)
Did you just say you would happily drink someone's pee?
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 23, 2012, 09:16:02 PM
Dude, if you can piss Jack Daniels I have an order I'd like to submit. :)
I guess you likes to drink Man Milk. Likes to drink Man Milk. Wadda cafone.
Quote from: bilsu on December 24, 2012, 10:58:09 AM
I think you are missing the big picture. The C7 does not need football to be a very good basketball conference. However, the SEC, Big 10, Big 12, Pac 10 and ACC will always be considered a cut above the C7 even if the C7 has better basketball. These conferences get a tremendous amount of TV exposure during the first 2 /1/2 months of football season, while the C7 will be getting none. While Big East football was never something I got excited about, at least the football gave them some TV exposure.
I fully understand the big picture. Adding bad football teams for the sake of having football teams makes no sense regardless of what people "think."
Quote from: Goose on December 24, 2012, 12:22:08 PM
Nothing surprises me anymore and I definitely would not be shocked in Georgetown ultimately is not part of this conference.
1. Where is Georgetown going to go?
2. If they do leave, and MU doesn't get an invite, what exactly do you want MU to do?
Gonzaga is no more likely to be in the C7 league for all sports than Marquette is going to return to Warriors and start a football team.
It is totally non-feasible as an all sport participant. But they can be basketball only....
Gonzaga isn't going to be a basketball only participant because no other conference would allow them to park non-revenue sports there while taking their marquee program elsewhere.
Quote from: bilsu on December 25, 2012, 12:14:14 PM
The team I want the most is Creighton. Creighton is the reason why I grew up on MU basketball. My father graduated from Creighton in 1940. He decided to get MU season tickets when MU hired Eddie Hickey, who was coach at Creighton when my father was there. Also my uncle Bernard Portz SJ, who also taught at MUHS, was a math and music professor at Creighton. By the way bilsu the current holder of those season tickets that go back to 1956 was season ticket holder of the game for the LSU game.
Congrats! Nice timeline. Like to see stories like this.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 25, 2012, 05:49:19 PM
Gonzaga isn't going to be a basketball only participant because no other conference would allow them to park non-revenue sports there while taking their marquee program elsewhere.
How do you explain BYU then?
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on December 25, 2012, 05:49:19 PM
Gonzaga isn't going to be a basketball only participant because no other conference would allow them to park non-revenue sports there while taking their marquee program elsewhere.
Then how was Notre Dame's non-marquee sports in the Big East AND ACC? Anything is possible if the $$$ works for the parties involved.
Quote from: bilsu on December 25, 2012, 12:14:14 PM
The team I want the most is Creighton. Creighton is the reason why I grew up on MU basketball. My father graduated from Creighton in 1940. He decided to get MU season tickets when MU hired Eddie Hickey, who was coach at Creighton when my father was there. Also my uncle Bernard Portz SJ, who also taught at MUHS, was a math and music professor at Creighton. By the way bilsu the current holder of those season tickets that go back to 1956 was season ticket holder of the game for the LSU game.
Warriorchick and I commented about the tickets dating to '56. That's fantastic bilsu. Congratulations.
Quote from: Tony Two Times on December 25, 2012, 02:16:35 PM
I guess you likes to drink Man Milk. Likes to drink Man Milk. Wadda cafone.
No, I just figure I'll hook him up to a bottler and I'll sell it at half the going rate. High volume, low margin dealer...as long as Sultan is willing to piss constantly in those bottles for me.
There have been reports in the media stating Gonzaga has reached out to the C7. Why would they show interest if the travel logistics were unworkable? For 3M per year they can figure out a way to make it work. As has been stated many times on this board, adding Gonzaga would raise the conference's overall RPI more than any other school.
http://www.slipperstillfits.com/2012/12/12/3758586/report-gonzaga-would-love-to-part-ways-with-the-wcc (http://www.slipperstillfits.com/2012/12/12/3758586/report-gonzaga-would-love-to-part-ways-with-the-wcc)
Quote from: keefe on December 25, 2012, 09:16:58 PM
How do you explain BYU then?
Easy. BYU parks its non-football sports in a conference that doesn't sponsor football. Gonzaga would be taking basketball out of a conference where it is the primary revenue producer. Why would the WCC allow that? Other WCC schools would lose money if Gonzaga takes out their basketball program.
The ND case with the ACC is different because they still get basketball and they make football scheduling arrangements.
Quote from: Heavy Gear on December 26, 2012, 06:01:02 AM
There have been reports in the media stating Gonzaga has reached out to the C7. Why would they show interest if the travel logistics were unworkable? For 3M per year they can figure out a way to make it work. As has been stated many times on this board, adding Gonzaga would raise the conference's overall RPI more than any other school.
http://www.slipperstillfits.com/2012/12/12/3758586/report-gonzaga-would-love-to-part-ways-with-the-wcc (http://www.slipperstillfits.com/2012/12/12/3758586/report-gonzaga-would-love-to-part-ways-with-the-wcc)
That article proposes this conference. How is DePaul in the "East", but Marquette in the "West."
East:
Villanova
Providence
Georgetown
St. John's
Seton Hall
Xavier
Depaul
West:
Gonzaga
BYU
Creighton
St. Mary's
Butler
Marquette
St. Louis
This is why, although it is feasible for basketball and has some appeal, this would be really hard to do for non-revenue sports.
Quote from: Avenue Commons on December 26, 2012, 08:04:13 AM
That article proposes this conference. How is DePaul in the "East", but Marquette in the "West."
East:
Villanova
Providence
Georgetown
St. John's
Seton Hall
Xavier
Depaul
West:
Gonzaga
BYU
Creighton
St. Mary's
Butler
Marquette
St. Louis
This is why, although it is feasible for basketball and has some appeal, this would be really hard to do for non-revenue sports.
How is DePaul in the East and Butler in the West?
Quote from: Avenue Commons on December 26, 2012, 08:04:13 AM
That article proposes this conference. How is DePaul in the "East", but Marquette in the "West."
East:
Villanova
Providence
Georgetown
St. John's
Seton Hall
Xavier
Depaul
West:
Gonzaga
BYU
Creighton
St. Mary's
Butler
Marquette
St. Louis
This is why, although it is feasible for basketball and has some appeal, this would be really hard to do for non-revenue sports.
The same way the Cowboys are in the NFC East, the Indianapolis Colts are in the South Division, Houston Astros in the AL West. At some point you have to balance divisions by numbers and that can mean teams are geographically not proper.
Butler in the East. Depaul in the west. Geographically proper.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 26, 2012, 10:08:56 AM
The same way the Cowboys are in the NFC East, the Indianapolis Colts are in the South Division, Houston Astros in the AL West. At some point you have to balance divisions by numbers and that can mean teams are geographically not proper.
Comparing NFL football budgets to, say, women's cross country is not an apt comparison.
Quote from: Avenue Commons on December 26, 2012, 12:22:22 PM
Comparing NFL football budgets to, say, women's cross country is not an apt comparison.
???
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 26, 2012, 12:32:40 PM
???
I think he saying that extra travelling costs don't matter in the NFL but might (given that they produce no revenue) for the average D1 woman's lacrosse team.
Quote from: Avenue Commons on December 26, 2012, 08:04:13 AM
That article proposes this conference. How is DePaul in the "East", but Marquette in the "West."
East:
Villanova
Providence
Georgetown
St. John's
Seton Hall
Xavier
Depaul
West:
Gonzaga
BYU
Creighton
St. Mary's
Butler
Marquette
St. Louis
This is why, although it is feasible for basketball and has some appeal, this would be really hard to do for non-revenue sports.
Swap out DePaul and Marquette and this is a winner. Let's do it!
Quote from: keefe on December 26, 2012, 03:06:25 PM
Swap out DePaul and Marquette and this is a winner. Let's do it!
I think that creates an imbalance in the divisions.
Top Six Teams
Nova
Georgetown
Butler
Xavier
MU
Gonz
If you switch MU and Depaul than you have 4 of these guys in the East and only 2 in the West.
If you include look at the top 8, I still think it is imbalanced as BYU and Creighton aren't consistently on the same level as the other 6 so MU in the west adds some firepower to that division.
Villanova
Georgetown
Xavier
Marquette
Gonzaga
BYU
Creighton
Butler
I don't think divisions with 14 teams makes sense nor do they make sense for college basketball. That works for football because there are fewer games and a conference championship to be played by the winners. It doesn't make sense for basketball because there are more allowed conference games and a conference tournament. How do you seed for the conference tournament accurately when not all teams play or have even play each other? Keep it simple and say everyone plays each other at least once and certain teams have mirror games just like the previous Big East did.
I can't think of a conference that actually divides their teams into a division. The Big Ten (with 12 teams) doesn't divide them up so why should this conference.
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/standings
Yep, divisions make no sense for BB. Just use the mirror approach.
Quote from: brewcity77 on December 23, 2012, 04:31:45 PM
We aren't going to have the super-power schools we're used to seeing. But we'll have a good basketball league of teams dedicated to success. And as long as they are committed, we'll all be just fine.
Re. SLU, that is the problem. As long as Biondi is there, they will never be committed to having a winning bball program, last year notwithstanding. A helluva coach can overcome an idiot like Biondi but there are very few coaches with that ability.
Quote from: slingkong on December 28, 2012, 04:41:00 PM
Re. SLU, that is the problem. As long as Biondi is there, they will never be committed to having a winning bball program, last year notwithstanding. A helluva coach can overcome an idiot like Biondi but there are very few coaches with that ability.
What's wrong with Biondi? does he hate bball?
Quote from: BagpipingBoxer on December 28, 2012, 04:46:51 PM
What's wrong with Biondi? does he hate bball?
From what I've read on message boards, Biondi is more interested in outside deals that the current state of SLU. There's a bit of revolt going on in STL.
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=35084.0
Quote from: Heavy Gear on December 26, 2012, 06:01:02 AM
There have been reports in the media stating Gonzaga has reached out to the C7. Why would they show interest if the travel logistics were unworkable? For 3M per year they can figure out a way to make it work. As has been stated many times on this board, adding Gonzaga would raise the conference's overall RPI more than any other school.
Simple. The time change plays to their advantage. Gonzaga wants more national attention--flying east to play their road games gives it to them, because every road game is in prime time.
Think about it . . .a 7PM weeknight start (whether in Spokane or elsewhere in the WCC) is already 10PM in the east--and the games will end after midnight. If they travel east for 50% of their games, worst case is Milwaukee or Chicago, where a 7:00 PM start still finishes by 10:00 PM in the east---and every road game becomes potentially prime-time friendly.
Yes, they could choose a media-friendly 5:00 local start--but the networks have more than enough inventory of east coast prime-time games already. They're not likely to sign a deal with the WCC if it meant bumping the Big East, ACC, or SEC out of prime time.
Say what you want about Dayton or SLU--at least road games there will make the 10PM news in DC, Philly, NYC or Milwaukee.
Quote from: PTM on December 28, 2012, 04:56:50 PM
From what I've read on message boards, Biondi is more interested in outside deals that the current state of SLU. There's a bit of revolt going on in STL.
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=35084.0
Very interesting stuff there. Hope they get their affairs together.
This all better happen fast because there's something out there that's just too dangerous.
Given the expiring television deal and no where to turn to, I'm pretty sure that if Xavier, Butler, and Creighton (or whomever) started acting as one, they'd be in a position of power vs the 7. Simply, we need them more than the other way around. It's my hope at least XU and BU are invited right away in January to get them on this side of the table.
That's a very real and very dangerous risk. Luckily they don't seem to have realized their position yet
I want no part of any additions that prevent us from playing mirror games with Georgetown, Villanova, St. John's and Xavier every year.
Quote from: Mufflers on December 29, 2012, 11:07:43 AM
I want no part of any additions that prevent us from playing mirror games with Georgetown, Villanova, St. John's and Xavier every year.
Well said. Keep it small enough for rivalries.
Quote from: Zephyr820 on December 29, 2012, 08:17:50 AM
This all better happen fast because there's something out there that's just too dangerous.
Given the expiring television deal and no where to turn to, I'm pretty sure that if Xavier, Butler, and Creighton (or whomever) started acting as one, they'd be in a position of power vs the 7. Simply, we need them more than the other way around. It's my hope at least XU and BU are invited right away in January to get them on this side of the table.
What does this mean? How are they more powerful if they acted as one? What exactly would they do with that supposed power?
The fact is that the C7 is going to get a better television deal than any of those schools you mention. If they decided to join, it would be even more lucrative, but if they don't there will be others that add value.
Quote from: Mufflers on December 29, 2012, 11:07:43 AM
I want no part of any additions that prevent us from playing mirror games with Georgetown, Villanova, St. John's and Xavier every year.
Don't count on it.