MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: Clam Crowder on August 27, 2012, 09:38:53 AM
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Our coach was suspended one game for one of his assistants lying and now we have the people talking about Buzz leaving again...Monarch is a grown man, he lied to his bosses. You are going to be held accountable if your employees are in non-compliance under your management. If Buzz has an issue with Monarch being told to leave when he lied directly to his employees about such a trivial issue Buzz can leave too. The program is the program regardless of the coach, I think the name speaks for itself now. If Buzz has an issue with being held accountable, which he most likely doesn't he can get out. If MU had a major violation for basketball, what the hell would we do? What national reputation would we have? Compliance is a HUGE issue for this school, this is our cash cow, and Buzz needs to make sure that the program is in compliance.
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Our coach was suspended one game for one of his assistants lying and now we have the people talking about Buzz leaving again...Monarch is a grown man, he lied to his bosses. You are going to be held accountable if your employees are in non-compliance under your management. If Buzz has an issue with Monarch being told to leave when he lied directly to his employees about such a trivial issue Buzz can leave too. The program is the program regardless of the coach, I think the name speaks for itself now. If Buzz has an issue with being held accountable, which he most likely doesn't he can get out. If MU had a major violation for basketball, what the hell would we do? What national reputation would we have? Compliance is a HUGE issue for this school, this is our cash cow, and Buzz needs to make sure that the program is in compliance.
As I stated in another thread, I agree with you and the others that says the firing and suspension are deserved and appropriate/acceptable. But this is not just one event that happened in a vacuum, this is part of an overall pattern that appears to be of the admin and LW cracking down on the basketball team. I think some "course correction" was/is appropriate but I'm not comfortable with the amount or method by which it is applied. I'm also concerned with the lack of uniformity of application to the athletic department as a whole.
One can agree with the outcome of a battle but disagree with the direction of the war.
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I don't think LW has any desire to have a bad team on the floor, maybe his issue was with some Assistants rather than Buzz. Buzz should understand this suspension.
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I think what most are worried about is if we press Buzz too much, he will get mad and leave. What that assumes is Buzz is an egomaniac that refuses to accept responsibility for his actions or problems in his program.
I do not believe this is the case. Buzz knows he screwed up as he is the boss of the basketball program and must realize the punishment is appropriate. If not, he has bigger problems than an assistant that lied.
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As I stated in another thread, I agree with you and the others that says the firing and suspension are deserved and appropriate/acceptable. But this is not just one event that happened in a vacuum, this is part of an overall pattern that appears to be of the admin and LW cracking down on the basketball team. I think some "course correction" was/is appropriate but I'm not comfortable with the amount or method by which it is applied. I'm also concerned with the lack of uniformity of application to the athletic department as a whole.
One can agree with the outcome of a battle but disagree with the direction of the war.
You mentioned this once before. What makes you say that? How have issues within other athletic programs been handled differently?
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But this is not just one event that happened in a vacuum, this is part of an overall pattern that appears to be of the admin and LW cracking down on the basketball team.
To be fair, that pattern exists because of some poor decisions made by MU basketball players/coaches.
MU didn't make the players go to the bar underage. MU didn't pick a fight with a kid outside of real chilli, etc. etc.
I don't expect perfection out of the players/coaches, but the stuff that is coming up isn't the admin's fault.
EDIT: And, equal enforcement across the athletic department is ideal. However, the basketball team receives benefits that other programs don't get (ipads, charter flights, etc.), so "fair" and "equal" is a relative term.
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To be fair, that pattern exists because of some poor decisions made by MU basketball players/coaches.
MU didn't make the players go to the bar underage. MU didn't pick a fight with a kid outside of real chilli, etc. etc.
I don't expect perfection out of the players/coaches, but the stuff that is coming up isn't the admin's fault.
EDIT: And, equal enforcement across the athletic department is ideal. However, the basketball team receives benefits that other programs don't get (ipads, charter flights, etc.), so "fair" and "equal" is a relative term.
I think this is the issue, are we in an new era of accountability (post Joe Pa era) or are we still in the era where winning and revenue generation gives one more leeway?
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I think this is the issue, are we in an new era of accountability (post Joe Pa era) or are we still in the era where winning and revenue generation gives one more leeway?
Actually, an interesting turn of events might be that we see/hear about MORE violations in the post JoePa era.
Most reasonable people will understand minor violations here and there, and will probably trust the school more if they do self report.
Schools might not hide anymore, and just put it out there. Small things (like underage drinking, bars, etc.) will probably get shrugged off.
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Actually, an interesting turn of events might be that we see/hear about MORE violations in the post JoePa era.
Most reasonable people will understand minor violations here and there, and will probably trust the school more if they do self report.
Schools might not hide anymore, and just put it out there. Small things (like underage drinking, bars, etc.) will probably get shrugged off.
[/quote MU should have self reported under age drinking to the ncaa?
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Actually, an interesting turn of events might be that we see/hear about MORE violations in the post JoePa era.
Sorry...but what is this almighty post Joe Pa era that everyone is talking about that we are now in? How does one assistant coach sexually assaulting players over the course of several decades and an administration/head coach covering that up somehow equate to "things are different now...something something...after Joe Pa."
Schools are going to be on top of this - the smart ones anyway - regardless. You don't need to look to Joe Pa to see why. Look to OU. Look to IU. Look to Tennessee. I don't see how Joe Pa had anything to do with the events that have occurred. Comparing every infraction a school self-reports nowadays to having something to-do with Joe Pa is not apples-to-apples. It's more puppy dogs to dinosaurs or any other ridiculous comparison.
And as everyone knows...people will only care about the whole Joe Pa mess for a limited time. After that, it'll be back to printing more money. It always is. I still remember reading in Tel Aviv how upset the world was at the paparazzi and their publications after they killed Princess Di. Everyone was so ashamed and they washed their hands of the Enquirer's and Daily Mail's of the world and took them off the newsstands at grocery stores....and that lasted for about 9 months.
Money will win out. It always does.
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Sorry...but what is this almighty post Joe Pa era that everyone is talking about that we are now in? How does one assistant coach sexually assaulting players over the course of several decades and an administration/head coach covering that up somehow equate to "things are different now...something something...after Joe Pa."
Schools are going to be on top of this - the smart ones anyway - regardless. You don't need to look to Joe Pa to see why. Look to OU. Look to IU. Look to Tennessee. I don't see how Joe Pa had anything to do with the events that have occurred. Comparing every infraction a school self-reports nowadays to having something to-do with Joe Pa is not apples-to-apples. It's more puppy dogs to dinosaurs or any other ridiculous comparison.
And as everyone knows...people will only care about the whole Joe Pa mess for a limited time. After that, it'll be back to printing more money. It always is. I still remember reading in Tel Aviv how upset the world was at the paparazzi and their publications after they killed Princess Di. Everyone was so ashamed and they washed their hands of the Enquirer's and Daily Mail's of the world and took them off the newsstands at grocery stores....and that lasted for about 9 months.
Money will win out. It always does.
Yes, money will win out.
College programs have always weighed the benefits of cheating (winning = fans = money) against the costs of losing (loss of scholarships/postseason = loss of money). By and large, and with very few examples to the contrary (see: SMU), the benefits of cheating have outweighed the risks and consequences of getting caught.
The question now, though, is whether in a post Penn State era that balance shifts. Clearly the benefit of "protecting the program" by not exposing Sandusky pales compared to the consequences It would not be hyperbole to suggest that Penn State football will never reach the same level. The Penn State case, I believe, has emboldened the NCAA and the college presidents that run it to crack down on athletic departments. will it work? No idea, but I think they're going to try.
So, at the end of the day, you're right ... the money will win out. The only question is whether the money still says "win at all costs" or "CYA at all costs."
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I think what most are worried about is if we press Buzz too much, he will get mad and leave. What that assumes is Buzz is an egomaniac that refuses to accept responsibility for his actions or problems in his program.
I do not believe this is the case. Buzz knows he screwed up as he is the boss of the basketball program and must realize the punishment is appropriate. If not, he has bigger problems than an assistant that lied.
Do you think Buzz and LW will both be at MU two years from now? Or one year? Regardless of whether Buzz should or shouldn't happily accept Larry's punishment, either Buzz goes or Larry goes, but no way they are both here in two years.
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You mentioned this once before. What makes you say that? How have issues within other athletic programs been handled differently?
I'm not going to tell tales out of school, you can trust that I know what I'm saying or not. Basically the stringency of academics doesn't seem to apply to all sports. That's one example, I am aware of others
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Buzz will be gone at the next big time job in the Southern Plains opens up, If none opens up he will be here.
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Why is Buzz leaving? Because he "doesn't get it" about why he is being punished. If he goes to an SEC or B12 school, does he really think they they will happily sweep something like this under the rug? If so, he is in for a rude awakening.
See Bobby Petrino at Arkansas. He was canned after having arguably the best season in Arkansas football history for lying about an affair ... something that would have been laughed off a few years ago, and even looked at as a positive that shows he "has what it takes."
See Bruce Pearl, he was canned when they were a ranked program for lying about attending a BBQ. See Jim Tressel, he was fired for covering up and lying about visits to a tattoo parlor. He only won a NC for Ohio State and that was not enough to save him. (h/t Pakuni for reminding me about these case specifics)
Turn it around, Buzz has to feel really lucky today. If he left in June for SMU and Monarch followed him (reasonable idea) and committed these violations at SMU and lied, it is MORE likely Buzz would have been fired with Monarch at SMU than at MU where Buzz has built up good will.
So, again, I do not understand why he is going to leave unless all the "character revealed" stuff is a fraud and he demands he be treated like he is above the rules and is unhappy MU is not.
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AnotherMU
The difference in this case might be all MU wants is to get until next season and part ways with Buzz. You are right others were fired for lying and higher profile guys than Buzz. I think LW did what was best for MU and that was protect Buzz and keep NCAA off their backs. Said in April but it was not in MU or Buzz's best interest to go to SMU last spring. I believe MU is putting together a list of guys and are preparing themselves for new coach.
If they had canned Buzz for this infraction who could they hire in late August? I will not agree that only getting a one game suspension is vote of confidence. I look at as MU saying we are one day closer to getting a new coach. Seriously if you were AD or school President wouldn't Buzz scare you a bit? As for me, that edginess is what I like best about him. The more stuff that is leaked or punishments laid out is great buffer for school if big time donors get pissed if we lose Buzz.
LW protected the school and has another documented episode on the "out of control" program.
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Goose:
You're suggesting LW wants him out. But, does Buzz want to leave? Does he think it will be better elsewhere when half his team is busted for underage drinking and his assistants lie (not to mention the rest of the list).
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AnotherMU
Honest answer, I think LW wants Buzz gone ASAP before any serious damage happens and Buzz wants to be gone faster. To push things further along for Buzz IMO is the level of local talent. Do any of us really believe Looney and Stone are going to play here, with or without Buzz? Ton of pressure and he probably ends up getting more Texas kids and Juco's which probably is not LW's dream recruit.
I predict that Buzz is at higher profile gig after the season and MU makes a safe hire that pleases most fans. Cottingham and Wild were perfect for Buzz. They hired up and gave him rope. Nobody wants to the rules change after game starts and unfortunately for Buzz and his followers the rules have changed.
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Goose:
You're suggesting LW wants him out. But, does Buzz want to leave? Does he think it will be better elsewhere when half his team is busted for underage drinking and his assistants lie (not to mention the rest of the list).
You accuse Scott Monarch of being a liar while spreading your own lies. Half of Buzz's team (guess they're "ours" when they're winning, his when anything goes wrong) didn't get "busted for underage drinking". In fact, NONE of them did. One assistant has been accused of lying, not "his assistants". Ironic that someone on as high a horse as yourself thinks nothing about repeatedly lying about others.
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Let's all speculate wildly about what people might or might not be thinking!
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I can't believe how fast relations and environment has imploded within the athletic department.
Wild, Cords, Cottingham must have been dirty as hell. We go twenty years with no problems through Deane, Crean, and Buzz.
Then Pilarz and LW come in and uncover we are a cesspool. Giving out t shirts, going to nightclubs. wow thank you for saving us Larry.
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I can't believe how fast relations and environment has imploded within the athletic department.
Wild, Cords, Cottingham must have been dirty as hell. We go twenty years with no problems through Deane, Crean, and Buzz.
Then Pilarz and LW come in and uncover we are a cesspool. Giving out t shirts, going to nightclubs. wow thank you for saving us Larry.
Bingo. Keep in mind....there were no player suspensions with regard to missing games/parts of games in Buzz's first 3 seasons..and then magically last year, we have 4 or 5?
I'm still waiting for AnotherMU84 to rebut the fact that there is a far greater likelihood that other non-basketball athletes at MU frequent bars underage, and many of whom drink as underage minors - yet he is outraged that some MU basketball players were at a bar underage NOT drinking! Hysterial.
I'm blown away at how AnotherMU84 and some here have absolutely made a mountain out of a molehill with regard to these "serious issues" that plague the basketball program. This crap is chicken littles stuff at high major athletics. Izzo has minor infractions. Crean's had them at IU. Calhoun. Saban and company 27 minor allegations....any suspension of him for a game??
It is absolutely embarrassing that some in our fanbase are so outraged at these issues, or feel Buzz should be rejoicing on Wisconsin Avenue for still being able to coach at MU. Absolutely embarrassing, yet just goes to show, people are capable of thinking this...so it certainly is possible Larry Williams does as well!
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I was once told there are so many different compliance rules and interpretations of codes that it would be impossible for anyone to go without minor infractions if you had someone following a coach's every move and action (both honest and deceptive mis steps)
You could have dirt on anyone if you really wanted to.
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I'm still waiting for AnotherMU84 to rebut the fact that there is a far greater likelihood that other non-basketball athletes at MU frequent bars underage, and many of whom drink as underage minors - yet he is outraged that some MU basketball players were at a bar underage NOT drinking! Hysterial.
Why don't you actually try to establish this as a fact first, then someone can actually rebut it.
All we know as fact is that 6 members of the men's basketball team were ticketed for being in a bar while underage. At the time, there were 7 guys on the team under 21 (if the wiki is correct and I can do math) so 6 out of 7 is 86%.
So do you really think that more than 86% of all underage non-basketball athletes are going to bars? I don't.
But, by all means keep stating your wild speculations and opinions as facts.
EDIT: FWIW, I don't think being in a bar while underage is a big deal. But, when you are there, you open yourselves up to the possibility of something going very very wrong (major bar brawl) and getting in trouble for it.
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3 to 1 odds it ends like this, seeing how much has gone wrong:
Another minor infraction from years past is uncovered in the spring against Buzz and then LW will have to make the "hard choice" of moving in another direction.
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3 to 1 odds it ends like this, seeing how much has gone wrong:
Another minor infraction from years past is uncovered in the spring against Buzz and then LW will have to make the "hard choice" of moving in another direction.
The university will not fire Buzz Williams unless he has done something to deserve it. If that's the case, then so be it and good riddance.
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Stone Cold
Even money that deal is in place for Buzz to leave for bigger job at conclusion of this season. All of the negative PR, infraction reporting, suspensions takes the heat off to some degree. Only way I see Buzz here in a year is if the Dick strong's of the school rally enough of BOT to push LW aside.
Buzz wanted to leave this year and MU could not allow Buzz to go to lesser school and gentlemen agreement on exit moving forward. That way school does not get caught with pants down and Buzz can get a good job rather than SMU.
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two minor infractions could do the job. showed he hasn't changed.
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Buzz wanted to leave this year and MU could not allow Buzz to go to lesser school and gentlemen agreement on exit moving forward. That way school does not get caught with pants down and Buzz can get a good job rather than SMU.
The make-believe fantasy land of the posters on this board is second to none.
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The make-believe fantasy land of the posters on this board is second to none.
I don't know man things have been going worse and worse. There's obviously poison in this relationship and our coach's best friend just got canned. Nothing would surprise me anymore.
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Why don't you actually try to establish this as a fact first, then someone can actually rebut it.
All we know as fact is that 6 members of the men's basketball team were ticketed for being in a bar while underage. At the time, there were 7 guys on the team under 21 (if the wiki is correct and I can do math) so 6 out of 7 is 86%.
So do you really think that more than 86% of all underage non-basketball athletes are going to bars? I don't.
But, by all means keep stating your wild speculations and opinions as facts.
EDIT: FWIW, I don't think being in a bar while underage is a big deal. But, when you are there, you open yourselves up to the possibility of something going very very wrong (major bar brawl) and getting in trouble for it.
I know for a fact(at least 2) that non-basketball athletes in the last 2 years have been caught underage drinking with no impact to current coaches. Your move.
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There's obviously poison in this relationship...
Well, hang on. You tend not to be one of the "sky is falling" types (at least from my recollection), but I don't see anything obvious about it. Where are we getting any non-rumor-grade information that there is tension? Did I just miss it? Or is this the same recycled fantasy from the 100-page SMU thread?
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Our head coach bluffed going to SMU this off season because of tension. Now his best friend is canned. I'm not a head in sand guy either.
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I know for a fact(at least 2) that non-basketball athletes in the last 2 years have been caught underage drinking with no impact to current coaches. Your move.
Wow! 2 whole people out of how many hundreds of student athletes? You really just proved absolutely nothing except maybe my original point. Thanks.
Oh, and what was the impact to current men's basketball coaches of the Apt 720 incident? How about absolutely nothing. Buzz didn't get suspended for the Apt 720 incident. He got suspended for having a liar on his staff under his direct supervision and for apparently not knowing about it.
By all means, keep trying to make this all about some effort by LW and the school to force Buzz to leave. It keeps this place entertaining (absolutely batsh*t crazy, but entertaining) until the season starts.
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AtlWarrior
LW is not trying to force Buzz out. He is trying to clean up the house for the next coach.
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Our head coach bluffed going to SMU this off season because of tension.
Did he? Is that verifiable fact? Let's say Buzz did have talks with SMU. Was it because he wanted out of Marquette or because they offered a ton of money and are close to home?
It's really the last part I'm interested in. I don't expect anyone to stick around because it's the right thing to do. Buzz is hot now. For his sake, he has to take every opportunity to move up.
But the fact that we've attributed it to malice between Buzz and MU bothers me. It feels made up. How can we possibly know what is going on inside of his head?
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AtlWarrior
LW is not trying to force Buzz out. He is trying to clean up the house for the next coach.
Utile et Dulce
Would be awesome if you are correct. Aside from stating posters are wrong do you have info to share on the issue. Respect that you think I live on fantasy island and no problem with that. Would love to be brought back to reality...please give me hand and give factual info on your point.
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AtlWarrior
Trust me, my saying that I believe MU and Buzz have exit strategy moving forward is not a conspiracy made up in my head. You can believe it came from sources, thus having credibility, or think I am crackpot. Am confused on how you would think I came up with a year later exit strategy in my head and decided to pretend my "fantasy" came from credible sources. I have better things to do with my time than throw out conspiracy theories about MU basketball.
I would hope by now my knowledge of MU program and it's history since 1971 would give me some credibility. Pretty much have seen all the good and bad this program has lived for four decades and hardly want my role on scoop to be known as the tinfoil nut.
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Wow! 2 whole people out of how many hundreds of student athletes? You really just proved absolutely nothing except maybe my original point. Thanks.
Oh, and what was the impact to current men's basketball coaches of the Apt 720 incident? How about absolutely nothing. Buzz didn't get suspended for the Apt 720 incident. He got suspended for having a liar on his staff under his direct supervision and for apparently not knowing about it.
By all means, keep trying to make this all about some effort by LW and the school to force Buzz to leave. It keeps this place entertaining (absolutely batsh*t crazy, but entertaining) until the season starts.
I know of 2 incidents through random connections, and I don't exactly have a ton of connections. What is the probability that the only incidents that happened, were ones I some how learn about? Put another way, I know of 0.01% of what goes on and that just happens to be the only incidents? Try extrapolating that.
The players also received no punishment, it was viewed as a legal issue and the coaches handled the discipline(physical, no games or practices missed).
If you want to call me crazy fine, I don't want to be right, but there is enough going that I see that makes me think LW and Pilarz are not interested in retaining Buzz and I have a problem with that.
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i give up reading this crap because i truly don't believe there is anyone on this board that understands the relationship buzz and lw have. we know buzz is no fool, despite the "aw shucks" persona, and i'm going to go ahead and assume for the sake of this argument that lw isn't a fool either. so if buzz and larry sit down and decide that mu has to take some chances and play the game a bit to get mu to a higher level, the best way to take those chances safetly is to ensure it appears that mu has a high level of instituitional control anytime buzz' risk taking backfires a bit. this give buzz the freedom to push the limits a bit while reducing the risk to mu as best as possible.
the rumors just don't ever seem to be correct, and are always way overblown. i'd be just as likely to believe that buzz was looking for a reason to get rid of monarch because he felt he could do better now that he's made a name for himself, as i am to believe that lw fired monarch to put pressure on buzz to leave so we can have a team equal to slu.
i'm just as likely to believe buzz and lw had a really good laugh about his dance at wvu as i am to believe that lw was sincere in his criticism of the incident to the press.
i'm just as likely to believe buzz flirted with smu to try and help beneford get a head coaching job, as i am to believe buzz was seriously considering leaving, or maybe it was just a power play...
i do know that buzz said he's be here as long as mu would have him, and while it certainly possible mu wants him to get a little more control of his program, i don't believe mu wants him out...so it's up to buzz to live up to his word...
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I know of 2 incidents through random connections, and I don't exactly have a ton of connections. What is the probability that the only incidents that happened, were ones I some how learn about? Put another way, I know of 0.01% of what goes on and that just happens to be the only incidents? Try extrapolating that.
The players also received no punishment, it was viewed as a legal issue and the coaches handled the discipline(physical, no games or practices missed).
If you want to call me crazy fine, I don't want to be right, but there is enough going that I see that makes me think LW and Pilarz are not interested in retaining Buzz and I have a problem with that.
Have any MU basketball players missed games for underage drinking?
You need to make it apples to apples.
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You accuse Scott Monarch of being a liar while spreading your own lies. Half of Buzz's team (guess they're "ours" when they're winning, his when anything goes wrong) didn't get "busted for underage drinking". In fact, NONE of them did. One assistant has been accused of lying, not "his assistants". Ironic that someone on as high a horse as yourself thinks nothing about repeatedly lying about others.
Wow Lenny got up on the wrong side of the bed.
I did not accuse Monarch of being a liar ... MU fired him for being a liar.
As far as the rest, Lenny you're right, 6 members of the team, which is one short of "half the team" were ticketed for being in a bar under the age of 21, right before a fight broke out. But no one was "busted for drinking."
And Lenny is right to point out that one assistant lied about violating NCAA rules is different than more than 1 lying about violating NCAA rules.
Now Lenny can explain to all of us why this corrected record makes it seems much less worse than it is.
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Lets face it guys. In one year we might be laughing at these posts. Im certainly in the minority that thinks that this will all blow over despite my belief that Buzz and Larry are butting heads. Just cause people butt heads doesnt mean that coaches leaf. crap for all I know they arent butting heads.
Soon we will laugh about T-shirt gate, just like we laugh at Hiroshima, and just like we laughed about SMU
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I would hope by now my knowledge of MU program and it's history since 1971 would give me some credibility. Pretty much have seen all the good and bad this program has lived for four decades and hardly want my role on scoop to be known as the tinfoil nut.
Goose,
I understand you have ties to the program and I respect that. This is not a slam but more my recollection of events over the last few months. Sorry if the language seems harsh and feel free to correct me. ....
You more than anyone helped this board coin the phrase "Hiroshima" because higher academic standards were going to hurt the program. Also from your warnings many thought the program was going to become SLU. You have been very effective in shaping opinion around here and I congratulate you for that.
If academic standards were raised to discourage Jucos, it did not work. The fact is we just finished one of the best recruiting summers in MU history, capped off by a Juco committing this summer. So either you were wrong about higher academic standards being instituted. Or higher academic standards were instituted and you were wrong about its effect on recruiting. I'll let you decide how you were wrong.
Now you're back after something bad happens to spread gloom and doom again. That both LW and Buzz desperately want to take a perennial sweet sixteen team and a top recruiting class and smash it to pieces. Why? I'm not sure.
In the long run you may be right but right now all your gloom predictions are batting 0.000. Why should I listen to a guy that has not been correct?
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AnotherMU
Not a big deal but I stated over and over I was not a believer in Hiroshima playing out. Actually that might be the first time I ever said Hiroshima on the board. I stated that I did not agree with MUGuru and never believed we would lose kids to academics. The school would have given kid head's up in April and encourage them to leave at that time. I do think you should check my record before linking me to things I did not support.
As for SLU...stick with my comments, but that was stated in March originally and only ever brought up again to defend myself.
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Stone Cold
Even money that deal is in place for Buzz to leave for bigger job at conclusion of this season. All of the negative PR, infraction reporting, suspensions takes the heat off to some degree. Only way I see Buzz here in a year is if the Dick strong's of the school rally enough of BOT to push LW aside.
Buzz wanted to leave this year and MU could not allow Buzz to go to lesser school and gentlemen agreement on exit moving forward. That way school does not get caught with pants down and Buzz can get a good job rather than SMU.
The Scoop mods also have a deal in place to let Chicos and Hoopaloop take over control of this board for the 2013-14 season.
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See Bruce Pearl, he was canned when they were a ranked program for lying about attending a BBQ. See Jim Tressel, he was fired for covering up and lying about visits to a tattoo parlor. He only won a NC for Ohio State and that was not enough to save him. (h/t Pakuni for reminding me about these case specifics)
Word on the street is that in both of the cases you mentioned above, the university wanted to get out ahead of things because if the NCAA started snooping around the programs they'd find a lot worse infractions than a BBQ and tattoos. Get rid of the coach and the NCAA backs off, gives a slap on the wrist and considers the matter handled. The NCAA doesn't want to find their major programs' indiscretions any more than major programs want to get caught.
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The Scoop mods also have a deal in place to let Chicos and Hoopaloop take over control of this board for the 2013-14 season.
Shh, we're soon going to leak the rumor that we've been flirting with the idea of them taking over, but then wait a year before actually handing over control.
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I know for a fact(at least 2) that non-basketball athletes in the last 2 years have been caught underage drinking with no impact to current coaches. Your move.
When was a basketball coach impacted by players caught underage drinking?
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Why don't you actually try to establish this as a fact first, then someone can actually rebut it.
All we know as fact is that 6 members of the men's basketball team were ticketed for being in a bar while underage. At the time, there were 7 guys on the team under 21 (if the wiki is correct and I can do math) so 6 out of 7 is 86%.
So do you really think that more than 86% of all underage non-basketball athletes are going to bars? I don't.
But, by all means keep stating your wild speculations and opinions as facts.
EDIT: FWIW, I don't think being in a bar while underage is a big deal. But, when you are there, you open yourselves up to the possibility of something going very very wrong (major bar brawl) and getting in trouble for it.
To the bolded point - then stop making it a big f'in deal. Jesus.
You continue to be an embarrassment to the fanbase of MU. What fanbase has a fan who is blowing the horn and championing the cause for its best coach in 40 years to be nudged out the door for having an assistant who gave a T-shirt and ride to a kid, flirted with SMU job, has had to suspend players during and after the season (for the first time ever in his 4 year MU career coinciding with the arrival of new President and AD, and said AD already threw Buzz under the bus to the local media in Journal Sentine interview in March.)
So here's some facts for you, while I was at MU from 92-97 I was very close with the whole mens and women's soccer team, men's tennis team, women's volleyball and basketball team - of all of those teams - men's soccer hands down partied more than any of the others many as freshman. Yet they all were out a lot and all were out more than the basketball team. Can I say for sure the same still exists at MU? No. But I really doubt that just out of the blue, all of a sudden college athletes stop drinking while underage. To think athletes at campuses across the country, including Notre Dame, aren't partying and drinking is just the height of ignorance.
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Shh, we're soon going to leak the rumor that we've been flirting with the idea of them taking over, but then wait a year before actually handing over control.
Where have you been? They've tag teamed control of these boards for years.
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Where have you been? They've tag teamed control of these boards for years.
Yep.... that's what I've figured all along. SoCal is Chicos, Rocky is Hoop... and so the question becomes, does Hilltopper know?
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Geez, get over it people and let's move on.
Buzz gets a one-game suspension for lack of supervisory control over his basketball staff. He is being held accountable for his mistakes. Isn't that what he speaks with his players about every day? Isn't that the reason he handed out several suspensions during the season last year?
Isn't accountability at least part of the reason why Todd Mayo wasn't with the team this summer?
Basketball coaches to some degree are teachers. Buzz and Marquette are teaching an important life lesson. No one, not even a successful head basketball coach, is above the rules. Sooner or later, you will get caught. In Scott Monarch's case he got fired for lying -- about the same punishment my corporate leadership would hand down to me or any of my subordinates if we did the same thing. And, if the lying was a compliance matter, as it was at Marquette, our leadership would be held accountable.
I admire the way Marquette dealt with this matter swiftly and firmly. Penance has been made and absolution granted. Father Pilarz has told Buzz to go forth and sin no more and I'm guessing he won't. That said, it is time to move on.
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First, this is not about a simple suspension like some of you claim. Buzz did nothing wrong in this case. His assistant coach made an error in judgement, and he was fired. However, don't any of you wonder why there was a buzz after the season on how Larry and Buzz didn't get along. Then Larry had some pretty interesting comments regarding Buzz as well. Then over the next few months there has been an interesting pattern.
Soon after the season, Tony Bedford decides to leave the program for North Texas and brings some recruits/players as well. Interesting! Then, all of the sudden, Aki Collins goes and takes an assistant job in the same conference. He is now at Memphis. Why? Then, low and behold, Buzz's best friend loses his job for minor offenses, because the "athletic department felt" he was lying to them repeatedly before he told them the truth. Okay. Nothing curious at all about any of this. It was just cut and dry, right?
Buzz might stay, and I sure hope he does, but I know that he has had a tough year with Larry and the new president of the university. You can call it what you want, but Buzz is a great man, and they are making him out to be some kind of bad apple. He has taken a shot at some kids with tough backgrounds and he has worked to have them become good people and good citizens as well as basketball players. To me, that is part of what Marquette University is about. Buzz has embraced this university and their mission. However, a few on the team have lost their way at times. Buzz has taken some flack for that, but the successes outweigh the negatives. When you take a shot on kids with tough backgrounds, sometimes it will not work out.
We wouldn't have national media writers like Goodman saying the things he's been saying if Buzz was a happy man. Buzz is a good friend with him. You can say all you want, but the fact is, Buzz is an incredible fit for this job, and we would have a very difficult time filling his shoes. Larry has to do his job, but he also has to let Buzz do his without looking over his shoulder. No one in their right mind can do a job well if someone is always looking over their shoulder and looking for what is wrong, instead of what is right.
Just my two cents!
Go MU!
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What has Goodman been saying? His comments seem more like "just the facts mam" variety.
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You continue to be an embarrassment to the fanbase of MU. What fanbase has a fan who is blowing the horn and championing the cause for its best coach in 40 years to be nudged out the door for having an assistant who gave a T-shirt and ride to a kid, flirted with SMU job, has had to suspend players during and after the season (for the first time ever in his 4 year MU career coinciding with the arrival of new President and AD, and said AD already threw Buzz under the bus to the local media in Journal Sentine interview in March.)
You are either too stupid to read, too caught up in your self-righteous paranoid delusions, or too busy corresponding with Buzz and all your dozens of athlete friends over email to think correctly. Please point out to me where I did anything you claim above. Closest I came was to say that if Buzz indeed gets fired I am sure he will have done something to deserve it.
I don't hope he gets fired. I don't support him being fired IF -- and here's the important part -- all that's come to light is all there is. I largely agree with you that all these things, considered indivicually, are not a big deal. What I wholeheartedly disagree with is that this is all some dastardly plot by the AD/Admin to get rid of Buzz.
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For what it's worth, my immediate reaction after reading Buzz's comments following Monarch's firing and the announcement of Buzz's suspension was that Buzz was genuinely and personally disappointed in Monarch and that he seemed to be stepping up and being accountable just like he demands from his players. I honestly don't think that this is a big deal. I think Buzz is pissed that his good friend screwed up and then lied about it. If Buzz is pissed about his suspension (and I personally don't think that he is), then his whole "character revealed" schtick is total BS.
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For what it's worth, my immediate reaction after reading Buzz's comments following Monarch's firing and the announcement of Buzz's suspension was that Buzz was genuinely and personally disappointed in Monarch and that he seemed to be stepping up and being accountable just like he demands from his players. I honestly don't think that this is a big deal. I think Buzz is pissed that his good friend screwed up and then lied about it. If Buzz is pissed about his suspension (and I personally don't think that he is), then his whole "character revealed" schtick is total BS.
Buzz can/should use his suspension as a teachable moment for the team and hopefully start a run of at least 365 days where MU does not have to issue a Friday afternoon press releases about the basketball program.
If that happens (no Friday PRs) then all the supposed tension between Buzz and LW will pass.
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Have any MU basketball players missed games for underage drinking?
You need to make it apples to apples.
No but it appears basketball players missed games for NOT drinking at a bar(West Virginia)
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No but it appears basketball players missed games for NOT drinking at a bar(West Virginia)
Speculative.
I know you are trying to connect the dots and make some conclusions, but I'm afraid you don't have enough evidence to support your claim that the AD is harder on basketball players than other athletes.
You have some third-hand knowledge of 2 other athletes drinking, and you have the weird WVU suspensions, which we don't know much about.
Not exactly a smoking gun.
Also, as mentioned before "fair" in terms of athletic programs is a relative term. The basketball players receive a lot better/more benefits than other athletes. That doesn't change the basic code of conduct, but certainly they have to understand than their actions are far more visible than the indoor track team.
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Speculative.
I know you are trying to connect the dots and make some conclusions, but I'm afraid you don't have enough evidence to support your claim that the AD is harder on basketball players than other athletes.
You have some third-hand knowledge of 2 other athletes drinking, and you have the weird WVU suspensions, which we don't know much about.
Yeah, I don't think it was ever confirmed the WVU suspensions had anything to do with the underage-in-bar citations. Jamail, Juan, and D. Wilson got cited but weren't suspended, while DJO and Junior weren't cited but got suspended. Something doesn't add up there.
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No but it appears basketball players missed games for NOT drinking at a bar(West Virginia)
If that's the case, why were some of the players cited at 720 (Blue, Mayo) suspended for the WVU game, while others (Jones, Anderson, Wilson) appear to have incurred no punishment at all?
And why were two players not cited (DJO, Cadougan) suspended? In fact, I don't recall any accounts out there indicating Cadougan was even there that night, though I suppose it's possible.
And why did the university choose a game nearly a month after the citations to issue apparently arbitrary suspensions, when they could have done so in any of the six games before WVU? Especially in light of the fact that Buzz says the 720 incident was handled by the administration on Jan. 30?
Lots of holes in your theory.
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I agree with the naysayers, I have more holes in my theory than a slice of swiss cheese, but so far I haven't seen anything more plausible that connects the dots than what I have.
As far as the Junior/DJO non-citation but suspension, I assumed that was because they were there(they were), but 21(so no citation) and were suspended for showing bad judgement in taking the team there. I also think that certain players are "targets" as perceived consistent trouble makers, and I'll let you do the math on how that pertains to the 720 incident and suspensions.
I recognize this is all speculation and trying to connect dots. Nobody has the complete picture, but the picture I see concerns me, so I voiced it on the message board. I'm open to changing my opinion if someone has one that better connects the dots, but I haven't seen that yet.
At the end of the day, I hate all this drama, I have seen nothing from Buzz to date that makes me think he is anything less than the perfect leader for this team, and I see signs that LW with either direction or permission from the administration is making life difficult for Buzz for some reason. I am speculating that is because LW/Admin has decided that Buzz is a square peg in a round hole with their vision for the university and I disagree with that. They have decided they will either make him fit their vision or make it untenable for him to stay. That is of course their prerogative as the current leaders of the university, but if true, something I have a fundamental disagreement with.
I see a different standard applied both academically and behaviorally to the Men's bball team and the rest of the athletic teams and that concerns me as well. I generally, have not been impressed with LW to date, but I will remain open minded that my opinion/conclusions could be wrong. I simply haven't see any evidence that would change those opinions yet.
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I agree with the naysayers, I have more holes in my theory than a slice of swiss cheese, but so far I haven't seen anything more plausible that connects the dots than what I have.
As far as the Junior/DJO non-citation but suspension, I assumed that was because they were there(they were), but 21(so no citation) and were suspended for showing bad judgement in taking the team there. I also think that certain players are "targets" as perceived consistent trouble makers, and I'll let you do the math on how that pertains to the 720 incident and suspensions.
I recognize this is all speculation and trying to connect dots. Nobody has the complete picture, but the picture I see concerns me, so I voiced it on the message board. I'm open to changing my opinion if someone has one that better connects the dots, but I haven't seen that yet.
At the end of the day, I hate all this drama, I have seen nothing from Buzz to date that makes me think he is anything less than the perfect leader for this team, and I see signs that LW with either direction or permission from the administration is making life difficult for Buzz for some reason. I am speculating that is because LW/Admin has decided that Buzz is a square peg in a round hole with their vision for the university and I disagree with that. They have decided they will either make him fit their vision or make it untenable for him to stay. That is of course their prerogative as the current leaders of the university, but if true, something I have a fundamental disagreement with.
I see a different standard applied both academically and behaviorally to the Men's bball team and the rest of the athletic teams and that concerns me as well. I generally, have not been impressed with LW to date, but I will remain open minded that my opinion/conclusions could be wrong. I simply haven't see any evidence that would change those opinions yet.
I have to be honest, it seems like you are choosing the dots you want to connect, in order to fit the conclusion that LW/MU aren't fans of Buzz.
- Basketball players have been suspended, but other athletes haven't. This doesn't prove the athletic department is out to get Buzz Williams and the basketball team. Not even close, really.
- LW and Buzz seemed tight after the WVU win, but a lot of people focus on LW's newspaper quotes and assume it's some sort of strained relationship because LW is a dick.
- Buzz recently got a raise (presumably approved by the current BOT), but the narrative is that the BOT isn't happy with him.
- Buzz is possibly the world's biggest networker, so of course he talked to SMU. It could have been something, it could have been nothing. We know Buzz is always recruiting, so he might always be looking for opportunities.
If you pick and chose the events you want to focus on, you can write any story you want... which certainly applies to me as well. I'm trying to read the events before I write my conclusion... and the truth is: I just don't know.
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- Buzz is possibly the world's biggest networker, so of course he talked to SMU. It could have been something, it could have been nothing. We know Buzz is always recruiting, so he might always be looking for opportunities.
Regarding this, in retrospect, it sure seems like this might have been Buzz pushing for them to hire Benford. As Benford got a HC gig shortly thereafter, it seems far more likely that was the case than him being ready to jump ship himself. But of course, that doesn't fit the narrative...
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Regarding this, in retrospect, it sure seems like this might have been Buzz pushing for them to hire Benford. As Benford got a HC gig shortly thereafter, it seems far more likely that was the case than him being ready to jump ship himself. But of course, that doesn't fit the narrative...
Listen, I don't want there to be a negative narrative, I'm an eternal optimist. I look at everything in total that I have, add it up and see if it comes up negative or positive. Based on what I know, right now the situation seems more negative than positive. We'll see if that changes.
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Listen, I don't want there to be a negative narrative, I'm an eternal optimist. I look at everything in total that I have, add it up and see if it comes up negative or positive. Based on what I know, right now the situation seems more negative than positive. We'll see if that changes.
If I track all of my expenditures but ignore the fact that I have a steady income, does that mean I'm in debt?
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You are either too stupid to read, too caught up in your self-righteous paranoid delusions, or too busy corresponding with Buzz and all your dozens of athlete friends over email to think correctly. Please point out to me where I did anything you claim above. Closest I came was to say that if Buzz indeed gets fired I am sure he will have done something to deserve it.
I don't hope he gets fired. I don't support him being fired IF -- and here's the important part -- all that's come to light is all there is. I largely agree with you that all these things, considered indivicually, are not a big deal. What I wholeheartedly disagree with is that this is all some dastardly plot by the AD/Admin to get rid of Buzz.
Owe you an apology ATL - got you mixed up with AnotherMU84 - who gave us the gem of a thread "I think most have this wrong, Buzz got off easy and he knows it."
BTW - I haven't ever said that there is some dastardly plot by the AD/Admin to get rid of Buzz - all of said is that the the conduct/behavior/quotes shown thus far by Larry Williams haven't reflected a great deal of common sense, and have definitely created a work environment that is radically different and less enjoyable than what Buzz enjoyed under Wild and Cottingham. Lastly, I am not that outraged that Monarch was fired - yet I do think the suspension of Buzz for 1 game was overreaching.
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Listen, I don't want there to be a negative narrative, I'm an eternal optimist. I look at everything in total that I have, add it up and see if it comes up negative or positive. Based on what I know, right now the situation seems more negative than positive. We'll see if that changes.
I understand, not trying to single you out completely. Just fed up with what this board has become in the past few days, trying to make sure we keep the positive, "not that big a deal" perspectives in mind, too.
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Owe you an apology ATL - got you mixed up with AnotherMU84 - who gave us the gem of a thread "I think most have this wrong, Buzz got off easy and he knows it."
BTW - I haven't ever said that there is some dastardly plot by the AD/Admin to get rid of Buzz - all of said is that the the conduct/behavior/quotes shown thus far by Larry Williams haven't reflected a great deal of common sense, and have definitely created a work environment that is radically different and less enjoyable than what Buzz enjoyed under Wild and Cottingham. Lastly, I am not that outraged that Monarch was fired - yet I do think the suspension of Buzz for 1 game was overreaching.
No worries. I got a little carried away in my response so apologies back to you as well.
Maybe the above is true, maybe it isn't. If it is, hopefully Buzz can deal with it, stays at MU and keeps us on the trajectory we are currently on. If it's not, then we've been wasting a lot of time and energy on our respective rants and raves.
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Listen, I don't want there to be a negative narrative, I'm an eternal optimist. I look at everything in total that I have, add it up and see if it comes up negative or positive. Based on what I know, right now the situation seems more negative than positive. We'll see if that changes.
That's fair stance.
However, you made some pretty bold accusations that the athletic department is singling out the basketball program unfairly. I'm afraid you're off the reservation with that one. We don't have anything substantial to support that.
I'm sorry, but suspensions/lack of suspensions doesn't really tell the story.
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Owe you an apology ATL - got you mixed up with AnotherMU84 - who gave us the gem of a thread "I think most have this wrong, Buzz got off easy and he knows it."
BTW - I haven't ever said that there is some dastardly plot by the AD/Admin to get rid of Buzz - all of said is that the the conduct/behavior/quotes shown thus far by Larry Williams haven't reflected a great deal of common sense, and have definitely created a work environment that is radically different and less enjoyable than what Buzz enjoyed under Wild and Cottingham. Lastly, I am not that outraged that Monarch was fired - yet I do think the suspension of Buzz for 1 game was overreaching.
You know, everybody goes back to the quotes as some sort of evidence, but nobody talks about the Buzz and Larry high fives after the WVU game.
Just sayin'.
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Ok -- Final thoughts.
1) The problems with Scott Monarch are unusual for Marquette. All through the Al era and even when things were bad, we played by the rules. Jesuit Catholic institutions tend to encourage honesty as a core value. When we became part of the NCAA, we promised to abide by rules and regulations and to tell the truth about our activities. Mr. Monarch did not and put the university in an embarrassing situation. He should be gone.
2) As to our players, folks, they're generally between 18 and 22 years of age. They make youthful errors in judgment. How many of you who went to Marquette can say you never went into a bar before your age permitted you to (excepting some of us who were able to drink at 18)? How many of you were in compromising situations with members of the opposite sex that could have gone real bad real fast? OK, I know you won't admit it, but those of us who lived in McCormick or Schroeder know better.
3) Nobody is condoning Item 2 in any way. But for crying out loud, we run a good program and have run a good program. These things happened to a lot of coaches. It's how we fix it and avoid it that really matters.
I'm feeling good about the state of the program for a simple reason. Lots of people are suddenly gunning for it. Everytime one of our guys even weaves and hints at being out of line, hysteria breaks out. It's as if we're in the 1970s again and the faculty is questioning why the university's highest paid employee is the basketball coach.
GO MU!!!!
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If I track all of my expenditures but ignore the fact that I have a steady income, does that mean I'm in debt?
I don't care how you screw up your finances ;D I don't ignore the income, but I do think the income is less than the expenditures right now.
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That's fair stance.
However, you made some pretty bold accusations that the athletic department is singling out the basketball program unfairly. I'm afraid you're off the reservation with that one. We don't have anything substantial to support that.
I'm sorry, but suspensions/lack of suspensions doesn't really tell the story.
I still stand by the statement, from both a behavioral and academic standpoint, I have had people in a position to know and that I trust, that there is an inconsistency of application across the athletic department. That is of concern to me.
Don't confuse me with someone who thinks LW is evil and is destroying us because he's a domer. I think LW and admin has made a decision and is applying it. I don't agree with the stance if true.
So you think there is no way that LW/admin is targeting the basketball team because of some sort of concerns? If you don't think so, that's fine and we'll agree to disagree. I just look at the evidence in total and think there is something afoot.
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So you think there is no way that LW/admin is targeting the basketball team because of some sort of concerns? If you don't think so, that's fine and we'll agree to disagree. I just look at the evidence in total and think there is something afoot.
#1 I don't have a good apples to apples comparison to know if the hoops team is being targeted, quite honestly, I don't think you do either, or at the very least you aren't sharing it.
#2 The lack of suspensions and "drama" with the other programs is not clear indicator that they don't receive the same enforcement. It could be an indication that they have had less issues, and have been able to handle the issues they do have, quietly. My guess is the hoops team has their share of "quiet issues" as well.
#3 MU, in and of itself has become a target of the media and fans the past 2-3 years because of success, and some less than desirable situations (both alleged and real). So, while the basketball team is indeed more of a target, I don't think it's the Athletic Department playing an active role in it as you have indicated.
#4 "Equal enforcement" is going to be always going to be a relative term for any major athletic department. Code of conduct for the players is going to be relatively consistent across every sport, but given the PR ramifications, some of the punishments might be more/less public out of necessity.
EXAMPLE:
X Soccer player is underage at a bar and some pictures end up on facebook. A coach finds out. Punishment is handled internally (AD and coach) and no press release is issued.
X Basketball player is underage at a bar. He is recognized and a picture is put up on Facebook. Punishment is handled internally, and some sort of press release is issued to answer questions from the media and fans.
Is the athletic department "targeting" the basketball team? Not really, imo. It's imperfect nature of college athletics.
EDIT: Grammar
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Honestly, this whole whatever-it-is speaks to just how clean of a program Marquette has run over the years. Think about it. People are losing their minds and claiming the program is out of control because of a free t-shirt, a couple minor suspensions and 20-year-olds being in a bar! Before you know it, the players will be listening to that rap music at loud volumes!
Seriously, this stuff is laughable.
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You know, everybody goes back to the quotes as some sort of evidence, but nobody talks about the Buzz and Larry high fives after the WVU game.
Just sayin'.
The issue is LW's quotes to the Journal Sentinel came after the WVU game. As for Buzz walking up to Larry and high fiving him after the WVU game...could have been some aggression release on Buzz's part to an extent for having been forced (not at his discretion) to suspend players for that critical game - yet to still be able to win. Also might explain his little two step dance after the game too. Both the high five and two step were out of the ordinary with regard to Buzz's post game decorum.
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The issue is LW's quotes to the Journal Sentinel came after the WVU game. As for Buzz walking up to Larry and high fiving him after the WVU game...could have been some aggression release on Buzz's part to an extent for having been forced (not at his discretion) to suspend players for that critical game - yet to still be able to win. Also might explain his little two step dance after the game too. Both the high five and two step were out of the ordinary with regard to Buzz's post game decorum.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HVd493yAhM
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Honestly, this whole whatever-it-is speaks to just how clean of a program Marquette has run over the years. Think about it. People are losing their minds and claiming the program is out of control because of a free t-shirt, a couple minor suspensions and 20-year-olds being in a bar! Before you know it, the players will be listening to that rap music at loud volumes!
Seriously, this stuff is laughable.
I completely agree with that, but that's what is so vexing about what MU is doing, they seem to be overreacting as a result we all are.
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#1 I don't have a good apples to apples comparison to know if the hoops team is being targeted, quite honestly, I don't think you do either, or at the very least you aren't sharing it.
#2 The lack of suspensions and "drama" with the other programs is not clear indicator that they don't receive the same enforcement. It could be an indication that they have had less issues, and have been able to handle the issues they do have, quietly. My guess is the hoops team has their share of "quiet issues" as well.
#3 MU, in and of itself has become a target of the media and fans the past 2-3 years because of success, and some less than desirable situations (both alleged and real). So, while the basketball team is indeed more of a target, I don't think it's the Athletic Department playing an active role in it as you have indicated.
#4 "Equal enforcement" is going to be always going to be a relative term for any major athletic department. Code of conduct for the players is going to be relatively consistent across every sport, but given the PR ramifications, some of the punishments might be more/less public out of necessity.
EXAMPLE:
X Soccer player is underage at a bar and some pictures end up on facebook. A coach finds out. Punishment is handled internally (AD and coach) and no press release is issued.
X Basketball player is underage at a bar. He is recognized and a picture is put up on Facebook. Punishment is handled internally, and some sort of press release is issued to answer questions from the media and fans.
Is the athletic department "targeting" the basketball team? Not really, imo. It's imperfect nature of college athletics.
EDIT: Grammar
My fault I brought some info to share with the board of other events/actions taking place that were contrary to what seemed to be going on with the basketball team. I'm not willing to A) burn the individuals involved B) burn the people who told me so I have to be vague. I recognize that is not sufficient for some, and that's fair, I'm anonymous poster who could all be making it up. I believe I have an apples to apples comparison but I'm unwilling to go into detail. I've stated my concerns, people have disagreed and we move on. I appreciate those willing to have a civil discussion like Guns and Brew.
I will leave one thought behind, I respect the folks that think this is much ado about nothing and sincerely hope they are correct. However, I'm curious as to why there is such a large insistence that such theorizing on my and others parts' is patently false and a general disregard for those who are concerned?
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HVd493yAhM
What part of postgame do you not understand??
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I'm feeling good about the state of the program for a simple reason. Lots of people are suddenly gunning for it. Everytime one of our guys even weaves and hints at being out of line, hysteria breaks out.
That is kinda of where I am at. Every day on the Paul Finebaum Show Auburn fans call up and rip on Alabama for minor incidents. The reason why is because Bama is the top dog.
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As for Buzz walking up to Larry and high fiving him after the WVU game...could have been some aggression release on Buzz's part to an extent for having been forced (not at his discretion) to suspend players for that critical game - yet to still be able to win. Also might explain his little two step dance after the game too. Both the high five and two step were out of the ordinary with regard to Buzz's post game decorum.
Or, it could be that Buzz was totally on board with the suspensions because he's all about teaching these kids important lessons and he and Larry agreed that they should be suspended even if it meant that they could well lose a conference game. After winning the game in spite of the suspensions -- effectively achieving the teaching moment without any harm to the team's record -- Buzz was extremely happy and reacted in a way that was out of the ordinary with regard to his usual post game decorum. That's how I interpreted it. Honestly, when I saw Buzz dancing across the WVU logo, I personally think it looked a lot more like releasing joy than releasing aggression.
But (and this is probably an important thing for all of us to remember): I have no idea what Buzz was thinking at the time (or at any time since).
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What part of postgame do you not understand??
My bad. Should've realized that because there were still 30 seconds on the clock when Buzz reacted with exuberance and did something a little goofy in the Louisville game, that makes it totally unlike Buzz reacting with exuberance and doing something a little goofy two minutes after the WVU game ended.
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I completely agree with that, but that's what is so vexing about what MU is doing, they seem to be overreacting as a result we all are.
How are they overreacting? They fired an employee who lied to his superiors. Where else have there been overreactions from MU?
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Merrits Mustache hit the nail on the head.
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The issue is LW's quotes to the Journal Sentinel came after the WVU game. As for Buzz walking up to Larry and high fiving him after the WVU game...could have been some aggression release on Buzz's part to an extent for having been forced (not at his discretion) to suspend players for that critical game - yet to still be able to win. Also might explain his little two step dance after the game too. Both the high five and two step were out of the ordinary with regard to Buzz's post game decorum.
The straight male equivalent of hate-sex?
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I will leave one thought behind, I respect the folks that think this is much ado about nothing and sincerely hope they are correct. However, I'm curious as to why there is such a large insistence that such theorizing on my and others parts' is patently false and a general disregard for those who are concerned?
I don't think you're patently false, but I think some leaps are being made out of fear.
- We like Buzz, we like winning.
- Enter a new President, and new AD. We don't know them.
- Some decisions are made that might impact the success of MU basketball.
- Several people jump to broad conclusions about the new Pres. and AD because they are fearful that the new guys are going to mess it up and take our toy away.
- Once we get to know the Pres. and AD better, it might not be so scary to trust them. Or, maybe they are terrible people. I don't know, yet.
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Honestly, this whole whatever-it-is speaks to just how clean of a program Marquette has run over the years. Think about it. People are losing their minds and claiming the program is out of control because of a free t-shirt, a couple minor suspensions and 20-year-olds being in a bar! Before you know it, the players will be listening to that rap music at loud volumes!
Seriously, this stuff is laughable.
Yeah, that girl at the Halloween party two years ago really thought the antics of the team was laughable.
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The issue is LW's quotes to the Journal Sentinel came after the WVU game. As for Buzz walking up to Larry and high fiving him after the WVU game...could have been some aggression release on Buzz's part to an extent for having been forced (not at his discretion) to suspend players for that critical game - yet to still be able to win. Also might explain his little two step dance after the game too. Both the high five and two step were out of the ordinary with regard to Buzz's post game decorum.
Listen, the high 5 isn't a smoking gun either, I fully admit that. They still might not get along, I don't know.
But, you are working pretty hard to contort yourself and your narrative to show that Larry is bad.
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Yeah, that girl at the Halloween party two years ago really thought the antics of the team was laughable.
OK, so there was one very serious accusation (that went no where) and a bunch of laughable offenses. Better?
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OK, so there was one very serious accusation (that went no where) and a bunch of laughable offenses. Better?
It went nowhere because public safety screwed up the investigation and lots of people think that incident is a big reason Cottingham is not the AD today.
Also lying about violating rules is not a laughing matter.
Neither is getting into a fight a 1:30 AM on Wells outside Qdoba.
It is far more serious that you think.
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It went nowhere because public safety screwed up the investigation and lots of people think that incident is a big reason Cottingham is not the AD today.
Also lying about violating rules is not a laughing matter.
Neither is getting into a fight a 1:30 AM on Wells outside Qdoba.
It is far more serious that you think.
It is far less serious than yo think.
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The VB issue still remains a serious black eye. Even bigger than the incident was the handling of it by Buzz and Cottingham.
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What the hell is the VB issue?
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Listen, the high 5 isn't a smoking gun either, I fully admit that. They still might not get along, I don't know.
But, you are working pretty hard to contort yourself and your narrative to show that Larry is bad.
No - I'm really not working pretty hard to contort myself and my narrative to show that Larry is bad. Larry made the dumb statements to the Journal Sentinel. We went from Buzz turning down Oklahoma, Arkansas and Texas A&M last year to seriously entertaining SMU this year. SM freaking U!!
Gee....I wonder what changed?? But yeah man - I'm really working pretty hard at contorting myself and my narrative.
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No - I'm really not working pretty hard to contort myself and my narrative to show that Larry is bad. Larry made the dumb statements to the Journal Sentinel. We went from Buzz turning down Oklahoma, Arkansas and Texas A&M last year to seriously entertaining SMU this year. SM freaking U!!
Gee....I wonder what changed?? But yeah man - I'm really working pretty hard at contorting myself and my narrative.
That's fine, I never said they were best friends. I just said people keep bringing up the quotes from Larry again and again, but nobody talks about the high five.
Instead of the simplest explanation, they might actually get along sometimes, you came with this:
As for Buzz walking up to Larry and high fiving him after the WVU game...could have been some aggression release on Buzz's part to an extent for having been forced (not at his discretion) to suspend players for that critical game - yet to still be able to win. Also might explain his little two step dance after the game too. Both the high five and two step were out of the ordinary with regard to Buzz's post game decorum.
I mean, really? An "aggression release" high five? and Buzz's dancing is out of the ordinary and somehow related to Larry?
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I mean, really? An "aggression release" high five? and Buzz's dancing is out of the ordinary and somehow related to Larry?
Hey, whatever fits the narrative. Or maybe Buzz told him that in an email.
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There seem to be two general camps. The first camp is the "Buzz should be gone, program is in ruins, we can't possibly survive this" angle. The second camp is the "Larry Williams is the Notre Dame devil, trying to drive MU hoops into the ground, we can't possibly survive this" perspective.
The truth is probably somewhere in between. Most likely, the program isn't in ruins, and Larry Williams isn't trying to drive MU hoops into the ground. And regardless, I'm pretty sure we can survive this.
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There seem to be two general camps. The first camp is the "Buzz should be gone, program is in ruins, we can't possibly survive this" angle. The second camp is the "Larry Williams is the Notre Dame devil, trying to drive MU hoops into the ground, we can't possibly survive this" perspective.
The truth is probably somewhere in between. Most likely, the program isn't in ruins, and Larry Williams isn't trying to drive MU hoops into the ground. And regardless, I'm pretty sure we can survive this.
Those are the 2 most vocal/memorable groups, and most likely are the outliers, even on this board.
I like Buzz a lot, but I'm cool with Buzz having a boss, and Pilarz's qualifications give me hope that he knows how to use hoops to help build the school reputation.
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Those are the 2 most vocal/memorable groups, and most likely are the outliers, even on this board.
I like Buzz a lot, but I'm cool with Buzz having a boss, and Pilarz's qualifications give me hope that he knows how to use hoops to help build the school reputation.
Like Hilltopper's post yesterday, I'm just glad there are a few voices of reason here. Too bad they're so far in the vocal minority.
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The issue is LW's quotes to the Journal Sentinel came after the WVU game. As for Buzz walking up to Larry and high fiving him after the WVU game...could have been some aggression release on Buzz's part to an extent for having been forced (not at his discretion) to suspend players for that critical game - yet to still be able to win. Also might explain his little two step dance after the game too. Both the high five and two step were out of the ordinary with regard to Buzz's post game decorum.
This is an honest question.
Buzz is always preaching about accountability, making the guys on the team better people, character revealed, etc. With that in mind, how do you arrive at the conclusion that he was forced to suspend players for the WVU game? If he's a man that is true to his word as we all hope that he is, wouldn't he be down with that suspension as a part of the maturation process of the guys on the team that broke the rule that got them suspended?
Another question: Do you also think that the rather odd nature of the suspension suggests that Buzz and Larry might have put their heads together to figure out a way to both 1) make their point to the players and 2) have a chance in hell of winning the game?
Of course the obvious answer is that he's ultra competitive and wouldn't want to be put at such a disadantage on the road in a critical conference game. But, I think there is more to Buzz than that, and I think that because he's constantly saying so himself.
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There seem to be two general camps. The first camp is the "Buzz should be gone, program is in ruins, we can't possibly survive this" angle. The second camp is the "Larry Williams is the Notre Dame devil, trying to drive MU hoops into the ground, we can't possibly survive this" perspective.
The truth is probably somewhere in between. Most likely, the program isn't in ruins, and Larry Williams isn't trying to drive MU hoops into the ground. And regardless, I'm pretty sure we can survive this.
Agreed completely.
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I am in the camp that Fr. P really just wants his own guy. It may be as simple as that. Do not believe LW wants to ruin MU basketball. Only concern I have had all along is every new hire is a major risk and I do not see any reason why Fr. P or LW would want anything other than Buzz to keep building on the brand.
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I am in the camp that Fr. P really just wants his own guy. It may be as simple as that. Do not believe LW wants to ruin MU basketball. Only concern I have had all along is every new hire is a major risk and I do not see any reason why Fr. P or LW would want anything other than Buzz to keep building on the brand.
Yea, but if they ultimately wanted their own guy, why shell out big bucks for Chew, a guy Buzz presumably wanted?
Certainly they could have got a mid-priced guy and nobody would have thought anything of it.
And don't tell me it's because they are grooming Chew, because Buzz could smell that from a mile away.
Pilarz/Williams/Williams might not be best friends, but I think they all know that they need each other. Now, I have no idea if all of them will be here in 2014.
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There seem to be two general camps. The first camp is the "Buzz should be gone, program is in ruins, we can't possibly survive this" angle. The second camp is the "Larry Williams is the Notre Dame devil, trying to drive MU hoops into the ground, we can't possibly survive this" perspective.
The truth is probably somewhere in between. Most likely, the program isn't in ruins, and Larry Williams isn't trying to drive MU hoops into the ground. And regardless, I'm pretty sure we can survive this.
I think the the two camps can be divided as follows:
Camp 1: Buzz Backers. Consider Buzz a great guy and a great coach. Think that with the full backing and support of the administration he can take us to heights not seen since the 70s. Don't like off the court problems but think most are beyond the coach's control. Have nothing against LW and don't care where he went to school, but don't see (especially in light of some of his comments) him as a Buzz ally. The fact that Buzz isn't Fr Pilarz's and Larry's guy worries them. If there really is a power struggle going on, they back Buzz.
Camp 2: Administration backers. Mixed feelings on Buzz. Like the on court success but feel the program is a little out of control. Back the administration's reining in of Buzz, and are OK with him moving on if he doesn't agree with his bosses. They feel if it happens the program will be fine. If there really is a power struggle going on, they back Larry/Scott/BOT.
There are only a couple of outliers who think that LW is an ND plant out to destroy MU or that Buzz has driven the program into ruins, but unfortunately it's often the way the members of each camp sometimes characterize one another. Sorta like politics.
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That's fine, I never said they were best friends. I just said people keep bringing up the quotes from Larry again and again, but nobody talks about the high five.
Instead of the simplest explanation, they might actually get along sometimes, you came with this:
I mean, really? An "aggression release" high five? and Buzz's dancing is out of the ordinary and somehow related to Larry?
Here is your original post: You know, everybody goes back to the quotes as some sort of evidence, but nobody talks about the Buzz and Larry high fives after the WVU game.
Just sayin'.
So if you want to speculate that all was well between Buzz and Larry at the time of the WVU game, and my aggression release theory is way off base - which it very well probably is as it was total speculation - then what events thereafter would have caused Buzz to give serious consideration to the SMU job..yet just 1 year prior pass up MUCH BETTER jobs at OU, Arkansas and A&M?? Buzz at the time was quoted as saying you don't mess with happy - Buzz was happy at MU at the close of the 2011 season...not happy at the close of 2012.
The quotes Larry gave to the Journal Sentinel pissed off Buzz...and that is fact. Add to that the in season suspensions of his players - which had never occurred before in his tenure - prior to the new admin/AD showing up - and it is quite evident there was a rift.
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I think the the two camps can be divided as follows:
Camp 1: Buzz Backers. Consider Buzz a great guy and a great coach. Think that with the full backing and support of the administration he can take us to heights not seen since the 70s. Don't like off the court problems but think most are beyond the coach's control. Have nothing against LW and don't care where he went to school, but don't see (especially in light of some of his comments) him as a Buzz ally. The fact that Buzz isn't Fr Pilarz's and Larry's guy worries them. If there really is a power struggle going on, they back Buzz.
Camp 2: Administration backers. Mixed feelings on Buzz. Like the on court success but feel the program is a little out of control. Back the administration's reining in of Buzz, and are OK with him moving on if he doesn't agree with his bosses. They feel if it happens the program will be fine. If there really is a power struggle going on, they back Larry/Scott/BOT.
There are only a couple of outliers who think that LW is an ND plant out to destroy MU or that Buzz has driven the program into ruins, but unfortunately it's often the way the members of each camp sometimes characterize one another. Sorta like politics.
Perfectly stated.
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I don't think you're patently false, but I think some leaps are being made out of fear.
- We like Buzz, we like winning.
- Enter a new President, and new AD. We don't know them.
- Some decisions are made that might impact the success of MU basketball.
- Several people jump to broad conclusions about the new Pres. and AD because they are fearful that the new guys are going to mess it up and take our toy away.
- Once we get to know the Pres. and AD better, it might not be so scary to trust them. Or, maybe they are terrible people. I don't know, yet.
My feelings, exactly.
Monarch lied about a recruiting violation and he's gone - as he should be. And Buzz was his boss so he bears responsibility.
One thing that really bugs me though, are the constant references that Buzz was just this close to taking the SMU job. (If he was, then he is not the person that most of us think he is. When James and Hunt are the big money backers at SMU, you are almost begging for serious problems with the NCAA.)
I seriously doubt that anyone on this board was privy to the talks. And.... it is any coaches duty to check out the terrain when they are a hot property - it doesn't mean they are close to leaving or want to leave.
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The quotes Larry gave to the Journal Sentinel pissed off Buzz...and that is fact. Add to that the in season suspensions of his players - which had never occurred before in his tenure - prior to the new admin/AD showing up - and it is quite evident there was a rift.
These quotes were blown way out of proportion, mainly by you. That is a fact. Please show me proof that those comments pissed off Buzz, other than some "personal email" he wrote to you. The second sentence is just more of your LW garbage. There have been a few things that haven't made MU look the greatest and I think LW has tightened the reins a little bit as a result, which is his right as the AD and which I support. If Buzz can't live with that, well then all his "making men better" stuff is a bunch of b/s. There really is very, very little to show that Buzz isn't happy. I think Buzz only talked to SMU as that's his nature (responds to everyone that reaches out to you) but mainly to push for Benford. I don't think he ever seriously considered that job at all. I still love Buzz as a coach and think he will be here a long, long time, but if for some reason he thinks his program is above discipline from above (which I don't think he does), well then we should start finding a new coach. All of these posts on either far side of the ledger, especially your's in regards to LW, are becoming very annoying. There are children overreacting on both sides, please let the adults talk amongst themselves and save your conspiracy theories and hocus-pocus for the clubhouse.
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Here is your original post: You know, everybody goes back to the quotes as some sort of evidence, but nobody talks about the Buzz and Larry high fives after the WVU game.
Just sayin'.
So if you want to speculate that all was well between Buzz and Larry at the time of the WVU game, and my aggression release theory is way off base - which it very well probably is as it was total speculation - then what events thereafter would have caused Buzz to give serious consideration to the SMU job..yet just 1 year prior pass up MUCH BETTER jobs at OU, Arkansas and A&M?? Buzz at the time was quoted as saying you don't mess with happy - Buzz was happy at MU at the close of the 2011 season...not happy at the close of 2012.
The quotes Larry gave to the Journal Sentinel pissed off Buzz...and that is fact. Add to that the in season suspensions of his players - which had never occurred before in his tenure - prior to the new admin/AD showing up - and it is quite evident there was a rift.
Ners,
I'm not debating the quotes in the paper, I'm not debating the SMU stuff. You and I have already gone around and around on that months ago. No need to revisit.
I'm simply saying that the newspaper quotes get brought up routinely as "proof" Buzz and Larry don't get along.
The high 5 never gets brought up. I know it doesn't "prove" anything, but my point was that maybe they get along sometimes, maybe other times they don't.
I don't think that is a controversial or unreasonable.
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These quotes were blown way out of proportion, mainly by you. That is a fact. Please show me proof that those comments pissed off Buzz, other than some "personal email" he wrote to you. The second sentence is just more of your LW garbage. There have been a few things that haven't made MU look the greatest and I think LW has tightened the reins a little bit as a result, which is his right as the AD and which I support. If Buzz can't live with that, well then all his "making men better" stuff is a bunch of b/s. There really is very, very little to show that Buzz isn't happy. I think Buzz only talked to SMU as that's his nature (responds to everyone that reaches out to you) but mainly to push for Benford. I don't think he ever seriously considered that job at all. I still love Buzz as a coach and think he will be here a long, long time, but if for some reason he thinks his program is above discipline from above (which I don't think he does), well then we should start finding a new coach. All of these posts on either far side of the ledger, especially your's in regards to LW, are becoming very annoying. There are children overreacting on both sides, please let the adults talk amongst themselves and save your conspiracy theories and hocus-pocus for the clubhouse.
Only a child would argue that getting it straight from the person's mouth (or sorry keyboard via e-mail) doesn't hold relevance. You can keep your adult card by all means, but it is sad when self proclaimed adults have their head in the sand more than the so called children.
Do I believe Buzz thinks his program is above discipline?? No. Do I know Buzz doesn't expect to open the local newspaper and see his boss of 90 days make disparaging remarks about him? Yes. Do I recall hearing of a recent case where an assistant coach made 1 mistake in a 4 year period of time regarding NCAA compliance issues that resulted in the head coach (with no prior NCAA issues) getting a 1 game suspension? No. Do I know if the relationship between the two can be mended and that they can coexist? No. Is it possible, the relationship could mend and improve? Certainly. Would I bet on it/Buzz being here in 2 years if Larry Williams is still A.D.? No. Would I bet Buzz would land on his feet at a high profile coaching job in a BCS conference even given all of the "warts" many in our own fanbase seem to want to pin on him?? Abso-freaking-lutely...and whatever sum of money anyone wants to bet...I'd take all of those bets.
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Do I recall hearing of a recent case where an assistant coach made 1 mistake in a 4 year period of time regarding NCAA compliance issues that resulted in the head coach (with no prior NCAA issues) getting a 1 game suspension? No.
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=5931058
What do I win???
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Only a child would argue that getting it straight from the person's mouth (or sorry keyboard via e-mail) doesn't hold relevance. You can keep your adult card by all means, but it is sad when self proclaimed adults have their head in the sand more than the so called children.
Ners, the problem with this is that no one believes in your "personal email". Hundreds of Marquette fans emailed Buzz during the SMU situation. Dozens of Marquette fans on these message boards all got the same exact email from him in response. Somehow, miraculously, Brent Williams singled you out as the one person with which he chose to share his true, deepest darkest feelings, and yet because it was so intense and personal, you can't share it with anyone else. Despite multiple others sharing the email responses they got verbatim.
Sorry, but there is no way that Buzz chooses one fan out of hundreds or thousands to have a heart-to-heart with when he has no idea what anyone's personal motivations are. And there is certainly no way you'll convince anyone it's real without providing some visceral proof, though this long after the fact, I'm sure most people would consider any proof you provided now to be doctored or contrived.
Your "personal email" isn't "straight from the person's mouth". At least, not in a sense that anyone in their right mind will believe. Any time you bring it up, the way it resonates in everyone's mind would be the exact same as me telling you that God spoke to me and said Buzz Williams is going to stay at Marquette until he retires. That is the exact reaction every single poster on this site has when you reference the email. So I strongly suggest you never mention it again, as it can only serve to further damage any credibility you still have.
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Ners, the problem with this is that no one believes in your "personal email". Hundreds of Marquette fans emailed Buzz during the SMU situation. Dozens of Marquette fans on these message boards all got the same exact email from him in response. Somehow, miraculously, Brent Williams singled you out as the one person with which he chose to share his true, deepest darkest feelings, and yet because it was so intense and personal, you can't share it with anyone else. Despite multiple others sharing the email responses they got verbatim.
Sorry, but there is no way that Buzz chooses one fan out of hundreds or thousands to have a heart-to-heart with when he has no idea what anyone's personal motivations are. And there is certainly no way you'll convince anyone it's real without providing some visceral proof, though this long after the fact, I'm sure most people would consider any proof you provided now to be doctored or contrived.
Your "personal email" isn't "straight from the person's mouth". At least, not in a sense that anyone in their right mind will believe. Any time you bring it up, the way it resonates in everyone's mind would be the exact same as me telling you that God spoke to me and said Buzz Williams is going to stay at Marquette until he retires. That is the exact reaction every single poster on this site has when you reference the email. So I strongly suggest you never mention it again, as it can only serve to further damage any credibility you still have.
I've only brought the email up 1 time (today) since I mentioned it months ago...at which time I was pressed and pressed and pressed on the nature of the e-mail. I outlined at that time the nature of the e-mail...as far as Buzz's response. It was not a heart to heart e-mail...Buzz didn't share his deep dark feelings with me. Did he write I agree with ALL you have written - with ALL capitalized?? Yes. What I wrote is what I've expressed here on the topic - that I found the comments made by LW in the Journal Sentinel inappropriate, offensive, yet if not stated to the local paper could have some merit and benefit to Buzz from the perspective of taking his foot off the gas a little bit. I also wrote that 90% of our fanbase loves him, but there seems to be a 10% faction that is self righteous and cannot accept 18-22 years olds making an occasional mistake - and that it is impossible for a coach to be with his players 24x7 and ensure they never get in trouble.
There you have it...for the 2nd time....as for why I may have been the only one who got a personal reply, beyond the standard one sent to most - perhaps mine was more personal/resonated more with Buzz. No one here would ever dispute my mancrush on Buzz - and I'm sure that came across in the e-mail. Ridicule me if you want. Call me a liar. I don't really give a sh$t - I know I'm not a liar, so does Jesus and that's good enough for me. My first love has always been MU hoops, and I've loved MU hoops since Kevin O'Neill got to MU - hated when he left - saw the writing on the wall during the Deane years -was grateful and thrilled with what Tom Crean accomplished at MU...was genuinely upset when TC moved on because he'd done great things at MU...but Buzz Williams to me is a remarkable dude, who is a great man, who is getting great results at the school I love....and it seems we are close to running him off...and the guy has conducted himself better than any of the previous coaches I know of while at MU with regard to personal conduct. He doesn't deserve to be crucified for things that are largely out of his control.
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Nets
Do not always agree with you but love your passion. I 100% believe your email communication with Buzz. Keep up the fight.
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Ners,
I know for a fact that Buzz didn't send the same "form email" of thanks to everyone. I absolutely believe that you received a personal one.
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Nets
Do not always agree with you but love your passion. I 100% believe your email communication with Buzz. Keep up the fight.
Ners,
I know for a fact that Buzz didn't send the same "form email" of thanks to everyone. I absolutely believe that you received a personal one.
Goose, Lenny, and Ners = cycle sisters. How cute.
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Ners,
I know for a fact that Buzz didn't send the same "form email" of thanks to everyone. I absolutely believe that you received a personal one.
Another "fact" apparently known only be a select few. Did yours have your name on it? Is that how you know? Did you see multiple email responses from Buzz to different fans that were different?
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This will flip a lot of folks -- I'm a LW fan. I was fortunate to have a lengthy conversation with LW long before these issues and I tell you the guy is smart, cares about kids, likes Buzz and loves MU. I'm also a Buzz fan. Is that allowed on this Board?
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This will flip a lot of folks -- I'm a LW fan. I was fortunate to have a lengthy conversation with LW long before these issues and I tell you the guy is smart, cares about kids, likes Buzz and loves MU. I'm also a Buzz fan. Is that allowed on this Board?
NO THAT IS A COMPLETELY UNREASONABLE POSITION TO TAKE!!!! YOU HAVE TO EITHER BE PRO-BUZZ OR PRO-LW!!!! NO MIDDLE GROUND!!!
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Love it.
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http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=5931058
What do I win???
Alas, nothing. Unless Ners now recalls. ;)
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Another "fact" apparently known only be a select few. Did yours have your name on it? Is that how you know? Did you see multiple email responses from Buzz to different fans that were different?
Warrior, I think I remember you as a reasonable guy in past threads. I'm not going to go into this any further for a number of reasons. If that makes me a liar in your eyes I'll live with it. I probably should have kept my mouth shut in the first place.
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http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=5931058
What do I win???
Good find - you will also see in the same article the blog College Basketball insider and blogger Eamonn Brennan wrote:
Tom Izzo's suspension reveals more about how hard it is to avoid recruiting violations than it does the coach's character, writes Eamonn Brennan. Blog
Funny someone with far more insight and much closer to the game than you finds there to be little wrong with Izzo's character - he defends Izzo - yet you and others here want to indict Buzz to clean up his act.
And since I didn't get a chance to comment on the other thread that got locked - yes, so you joined IWB's site right as you were banned from the Scout site and no longer had access to Insider content there...oh the irony!!
It's long been a pattern of yours to write "my sources" here at Scoop and going on to share the exact same content that was already shared on the insider boards at Dodds site and now IWB's.
Pretty laughable indeed. At least I've always gotten a good laugh out of seeing your performance here just like clockwork after IWB releases some inside info.
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That is the second time you have made this accusation. And as the first time, I am going to challenge you to indentify one time that I have passed something off here as coming from "my sources" when it was something pulled off IWBs insider board. Just one. (I have only been a member of that board since May or June.)
I have never been a member of Dodd's insider board and in fact have been banned from posting there.
The only time that I recall using a phrase "my sources" anyway was about when a player was facing academic issues. And my source was not the IWB premium board, but someone who would know.
So either you step up and detail when I have done what you have accused....or you STFU. Got that?
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Note the irony in the title of this thread.
Mods, Time to lock this one too?
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And since I didn't get a chance to comment on the other thread that got locked - yes, so you joined IWB's site right as you were banned from the Scout site and no longer had access to Insider content there...oh the irony!!
It's long been a pattern of yours to write "my sources" here at Scoop and going on to share the exact same content that was already shared on the insider boards at Dodds site and now IWB's.
Yeah...I'm a member over there too, and I haven't seen any inside info that Sultan posted here from IWB's board. And I was a member over at Scout before Dodds went on his psycho "You shall never disagree with me" rager, but unlike Sultan, I was in the Premium Forum. Or at least I assume it was unlike Sultan, because he never posted in there, and nothing against the guy, but he posts near as much as Chicos used to, so had he access to the Dodds Premium stuff, I'm pretty sure that he'd have been posting in there constantly as well.
I'm not going to speak to anyone's sources. I don't know who hears what or from whom. Some people seem credible, others often not. I know things I have heard in the past, I know who I have heard them from, but more often than not, when I hear something that people don't want me to put their name to, I just don't post it. But I haven't seen much of anything from IWB's Insider board that showed up on this site. Not from Sultan, not from anyone.
Though chili is probably right about this thread. Might be time for the mods to put damn near the whole place on lockdown, aside from the sweet beats by Dr. Dre.
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FWIW, since we've gone there, there is nothing wrong with taking information you learn at a "premium" site and sharing it here as long as you don't copy 1:1. It's no different than reading the WSJ and sharing info from an article with your buddies at lunch. Dodds, IWB, and users at their sites like to berate people that "use" their information here, but there's nothing in their terms of service that should allow them to cut off you access if you share that information somewhere else.
Just something I've noticed Ners and a few others saying.
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That is the second time you have made this accusation. And as the first time, I am going to challenge you to indentify one time that I have passed something off here as coming from "my sources" when it was something pulled off IWBs insider board. Just one. (I have only been a member of that board since May or June.)
I have never been a member of Dodd's insider board and in fact have been banned from posting there.
The only time that I recall using a phrase "my sources" anyway was about when a player was facing academic issues. And my source was not the IWB premium board, but someone who would know.
So either you step up and detail when I have done what you have accused....or you STFU. Got that?
Hey tough guy - I'll just point it out the next time you do it - deal? To deny you've done in the past is a flat out lie. Fortunately I'm not Chicos or MU84 and have not perfected the whole search functionality and recycle a thread from months ago maneuver - nor do I have the time to go through your 8500+ posts. But while we are on the topic of STFU - why don't you just STFU up about how Buzz needs to clean up his program...when the only example of things you've been able to cite that are within Buzz's complete control on what you want cleaned up was the Newbill situation.
Got that?
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Hey tough guy - I'll just point it out the next time you do it - deal? To deny you've done in the past is a flat out lie. Fortunately I'm not Chicos or MU84 and have not perfected the whole search functionality and recycle a thread from months ago maneuver - nor do I have the time to go through your 8500+ posts. But while we are on the topic of STFU - why don't you just STFU up about how Buzz needs to clean up his program...when the only example of things you've been able to cite that are within Buzz's complete control on what you want cleaned up was the Newbill situation.
Got that?
Oh the irony...Ners, this is the worst example of "Internet tough guy" post I've ever seen, and you open it by calling SSW a tough guy. Your STFUs and "Got that?" are priceless, truly some of the funniest stuff I've seen on here. I'm sure the next time it happens, Sultan will be peeking out the blinds when he leaves work to make sure you aren't in the parking lot.
And yes...I read Sultan's post, but yours is just funnier, only not in a good way.
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<End Scene>
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I think the the two camps can be divided as follows:
Camp 1: Buzz Backers. Consider Buzz a great guy and a great coach. Think that with the full backing and support of the administration he can take us to heights not seen since the 70s. Don't like off the court problems but think most are beyond the coach's control. Have nothing against LW and don't care where he went to school, but don't see (especially in light of some of his comments) him as a Buzz ally. The fact that Buzz isn't Fr Pilarz's and Larry's guy worries them. If there really is a power struggle going on, they back Buzz.
Camp 2: Administration backers. Mixed feelings on Buzz. Like the on court success but feel the program is a little out of control. Back the administration's reining in of Buzz, and are OK with him moving on if he doesn't agree with his bosses. They feel if it happens the program will be fine. If there really is a power struggle going on, they back Larry/Scott/BOT.
There are only a couple of outliers who think that LW is an ND plant out to destroy MU or that Buzz has driven the program into ruins, but unfortunately it's often the way the members of each camp sometimes characterize one another. Sorta like politics.
Every time I think I'm out, they....well you know.
I'm a camp 1 guy. I think a lot of the camp 2 folks on the board are painting the camp 1 people as LW haters. Warhawk happens to like both Buzz and LW, and I think that is entirely reasonable. I have no idea if LW or Father P are good or evil men, smart or dumb, etc...never met them and I won't draw a conclusion on them based on the evidence I've seen. I have an opinion on their actions to date and that's it.
Both camps seem to want to paint each other as illogical and wrong. Could be we all are and there is some third camp really going on. But I don't get why everyone is hyperventilating in an effort to discount each others opinions and observations? I know what I've seen, I take what others here have said(with various grains of salt depending on their history) and draw conclusions. I thought that was what the message board was for? Apparently having an opinion is a bad one around here regardless of which camp you are in.
Lastly, apparently we don't need Chicos around to explode things....or is all this because he's not here to be the lightening rod to which everyone can attack in unity? ;D
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Hey tough guy - I'll just point it out the next time you do it - deal? To deny you've done in the past is a flat out lie. Fortunately I'm not Chicos or MU84 and have not perfected the whole search functionality and recycle a thread from months ago maneuver - nor do I have the time to go through your 8500+ posts.
LOL...."You are lying....but I can't prove it."
Lame...but entertaining.
And again, I have a witness who posted here that I have not stolen any information and passed it off as my own. So again, either step up...or shut up.
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Hey tough guy - I'll just point it out the next time you do it - deal? To deny you've done in the past is a flat out lie. Fortunately I'm not Chicos or MU84 and have not perfected the whole search functionality and recycle a thread from months ago maneuver - nor do I have the time to go through your 8500+ posts. But while we are on the topic of STFU - why don't you just STFU up about how Buzz needs to clean up his program...when the only example of things you've been able to cite that are within Buzz's complete control on what you want cleaned up was the Newbill situation.
Got that?
Wait now I'm confused is Sultan = Chicos? Is Ners = Chicos? But this is really getting too personal. Think everyone should just meet and have a couple of beers. ;D
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Every time I think I'm out, they....well you know.
I'm a camp 1 guy. I think a lot of the camp 2 folks on the board are painting the camp 1 people as LW haters. Warhawk happens to like both Buzz and LW, and I think that is entirely reasonable. I have no idea if LW or Father P are good or evil men, smart or dumb, etc...never met them and I won't draw a conclusion on them based on the evidence I've seen. I have an opinion on their actions to date and that's it.
Both camps seem to want to paint each other as illogical and wrong. Could be we all are and there is some third camp really going on. But I don't get why everyone is hyperventilating in an effort to discount each others opinions and observations? I know what I've seen, I take what others here have said(with various grains of salt depending on their history) and draw conclusions. I thought that was what the message board was for? Apparently having an opinion is a bad one around here regardless of which camp you are in.
Lastly, apparently we don't need Chicos around to explode things....or is all this because he's not here to be the lightening rod to which everyone can attack in unity? ;D
Part of the issue is that a lot of communication is non-verbal, so posts can be misconstrued or interpreted to fit an existing bias.
If green is my all time favorite color, and you say that you think green is just OK, I might critique you, trying to prove to you that green is the best, and then we are off to the races.
You might even like green, but because I LOVE it, and you think "it's ok", (and this is the internet), it's enough to start a debate.
We need to check your own biases (we all have them), and if you find yourself hunting down another poster, just so you can disagree with him/her, it's probably time for a break. I'm guilty as charged, and stepping away from the keyboard was the best solution.
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Guns
Agreed completely. I find myself wanting to defend myself and fall into that trap. Even the posters that can piss me off I am glad they are here because of their interest in the program. My goals for the program or method of gaining those goals are not for everyone and really do respect that.
For three months I have been waiting for someone to flat out make my tinfoil posts be completely wrong. I want to be wrong and part of my motive for posting was for someone to be able to have facts to make be wrong. After reading all of these posts for months my overall perspective has changed. While I still want 12 non traditional players that can play like UK or Vegas teams under Tark, I do understand the bigger picture better.
To sum it up, sorry for letting myself fall into the trap. Never meant to drive anyone crazy or beat issues in the ground. All that said, I did take pleasure in pissing off LabWarrior.
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Part of the issue is that a lot of communication is non-verbal, so posts can be misconstrued or interpreted to fit an existing bias.
If green is my all time favorite color, and you say that you think green is just OK, I might critique you, trying to prove to you that green is the best, and then we are off to the races.
You might even like green, but because I LOVE it, and you think "it's ok", (and this is the internet), it's enough to start a debate.
We need to check your own biases (we all have them), and if you find yourself hunting down another poster, just so you can disagree with him/her, it's probably time for a break. I'm guilty as charged, and stepping away from the keyboard was the best solution.
I think some shades of green are beautiful, some shades are alright and some shades are ugly. ;D
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Oh the irony...Ners, this is the worst example of "Internet tough guy" post I've ever seen, and you open it by calling SSW a tough guy. Your STFUs and "Got that?" are priceless, truly some of the funniest stuff I've seen on here. I'm sure the next time it happens, Sultan will be peeking out the blinds when he leaves work to make sure you aren't in the parking lot.
And yes...I read Sultan's post, but yours is just funnier, only not in a good way.
Still a little bitter from our debate on Vander versus Gardner over a year ago?? Or do you always just jump in debates that have nothing to do with you? It is funny how you and Sultan are always taking up for each other - but as I've said several times - I could give 2 craps what you or Sultan think about me - you guys have proven to be quite dense for awhile now.
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you guys have proven to be quite dense for awhile now.
Oh the irony.
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Only a child would argue that getting it straight from the person's mouth (or sorry keyboard via e-mail) doesn't hold relevance. You can keep your adult card by all means, but it is sad when self proclaimed adults have their head in the sand more than the so called children.
I don't believe Buzz sent a personal email to you.
Do I believe Buzz thinks his program is above discipline?? No. Do I know Buzz doesn't expect to open the local newspaper and see his boss of 90 days make disparaging remarks about him? Yes. Do I recall hearing of a recent case where an assistant coach made 1 mistake in a 4 year period of time regarding NCAA compliance issues that resulted in the head coach (with no prior NCAA issues) getting a 1 game suspension? No. Do I know if the relationship between the two can be mended and that they can coexist? No. Is it possible, the relationship could mend and improve? Certainly. Would I bet on it/Buzz being here in 2 years if Larry Williams is still A.D.? No. Would I bet Buzz would land on his feet at a high profile coaching job in a BCS conference even given all of the "warts" many in our own fanbase seem to want to pin on him?? Abso-freaking-lutely...and whatever sum of money anyone wants to bet...I'd take all of those bets.
Bold # 1 - No, you don't have any idea on this. LW was asked a question, he answered. Many people here, mainly you, blew it out of proportion.
Bold # 2 - It was Buzz's assistant. He broke a very minor rule, but lied. LW thinks part of that falls on Buzz as Monarch's Buzz and give him a minor disciplinary action. I am perfectly okay with that.
Bold # 3 - More blowing stuff out of proportion an insinuation. Very, very little solid, actual evidence to backup any supposed rift between LW and Buzz.
Buzz is doing a great job and I think he will be here a long time. I think LW is trying to clean up MU's image a bit. All of the "issues" on Buzz's watch have been pretty minor (aside from the sexual harassment allegations--but even that nobody know how serious that was and MU handled it awfully) and taken individually, nobody would bat an eye. However, I am a little uncomfortable with the sheer amount of things that have happened (and I know it's very tough to control 18-22 year olds) and would support LW's efforts on that front. However, if LW wants to take such drastic measures that they would "force out" Buzz, I would not be behind that. Having said that, if Buzz is a man of his word, I think he'd agree that some of the "rough edges" of the MU program over the past couple years could be ironed out a bit.
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I don't believe Buzz sent a personal email to you.
I don't care if you don't believe me - fact is he did - and I outlined exactly what the content of the -mail was - but that's fine - it's very adult like to call someone a liar when you have absolutely ZERO ability to prove your claims as true.
Bold # 1 - No, you don't have any idea on this. LW was asked a question, he answered. Many people here, mainly you, blew it out of proportion.
Bold # 2 - It was Buzz's assistant. He broke a very minor rule, but lied. LW thinks part of that falls on Buzz as Monarch's Buzz and give him a minor disciplinary action. I am perfectly okay with that.
Bold # 3 - More blowing stuff out of proportion an insinuation. Very, very little solid, actual evidence to backup any supposed rift between LW and Buzz.
Buzz is doing a great job and I think he will be here a long time. I think LW is trying to clean up MU's image a bit. All of the "issues" on Buzz's watch have been pretty minor (aside from the sexual harassment allegations--but even that nobody know how serious that was and MU handled it awfully) and taken individually, nobody would bat an eye. However, I am a little uncomfortable with the sheer amount of things that have happened (and I know it's very tough to control 18-22 year olds) and would support LW's efforts on that front. However, if LW wants to take such drastic measures that they would "force out" Buzz, I would not be behind that. Having said that, if Buzz is a man of his word, I think he'd agree that some of the "rough edges" of the MU program over the past couple years could be ironed out a bit.
Time will tell regarding the rift...I simply wouldn't bet any money on both Buzz and Larry being here to kick off the 2014-2015 season. The only wildcard in all of it is Buzz's loyalty to his players and the recruits he signs - that would be the most difficult aspect of leaving MU - and could be the saving grace in all of this..
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I don't care if you don't believe me - fact is he did - and I outlined exactly what the content of the -mail was - but that's fine - it's very adult like to call someone a liar when you have absolutely ZERO ability to prove your claims as true.
You very easily have the ability to prove it (feel free to PM to any number of people that doubt your story if you don't want to share with the whole board), but choose not to. Also, I don't think I ever saw you lay out the content of the email at all (maybe I missed it), but that's fine. Maybe you misconstrued a form letter that had your name at the top, I don't know. If you're so worried about me or others not believing you, then make us out to be the liars.
BTW, I wouldn't say I called you a liar, I feel that has a much worse connotative meaning that what I said, simply that I didn't believe you received a personal letter, but whatever.
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I think some shades of green are beautiful, some shades are alright and some shades are ugly. ;D
GREEN SUCKS! RED IS BEST!!!
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Still a little bitter from our debate on Vander versus Gardner over a year ago?? Or do you always just jump in debates that have nothing to do with you?
Nope. I just point out amusing where I see it. And you, my friend, are incredibly amusing. A bit hostile, but still genuinely funny, especially when you don't mean to be.
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Nope. I just point out amusing where I see it. And you, my friend, are incredibly amusing. A bit hostile, but still genuinely funny, especially when you don't mean to be.
Ironic. Touche.
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I didn't read through the copious posts on the subject, so apologies for echoing other sentiments.....
My 2 cents. I believe Buzz was at the head of the table on this. I can see how some might view this as something for Buzz to be upset about, but I think he is the one that imposed it.....not the administration.
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I've only brought the email up 1 time (today) since I mentioned it months ago...at which time I was pressed and pressed and pressed on the nature of the e-mail. I outlined at that time the nature of the e-mail...as far as Buzz's response. It was not a heart to heart e-mail...Buzz didn't share his deep dark feelings with me. Did he write I agree with ALL you have written - with ALL capitalized?? Yes. What I wrote is what I've expressed here on the topic - that I found the comments made by LW in the Journal Sentinel inappropriate, offensive, yet if not stated to the local paper could have some merit and benefit to Buzz from the perspective of taking his foot off the gas a little bit. I also wrote that 90% of our fanbase loves him, but there seems to be a 10% faction that is self righteous and cannot accept 18-22 years olds making an occasional mistake - and that it is impossible for a coach to be with his players 24x7 and ensure they never get in trouble.
There you have it...for the 2nd time....as for why I may have been the only one who got a personal reply, beyond the standard one sent to most - perhaps mine was more personal/resonated more with Buzz. No one here would ever dispute my mancrush on Buzz - and I'm sure that came across in the e-mail. Ridicule me if you want. Call me a liar. I don't really give a sh$t - I know I'm not a liar, so does Jesus and that's good enough for me. My first love has always been MU hoops, and I've loved MU hoops since Kevin O'Neill got to MU - hated when he left - saw the writing on the wall during the Deane years -was grateful and thrilled with what Tom Crean accomplished at MU...was genuinely upset when TC moved on because he'd done great things at MU...but Buzz Williams to me is a remarkable dude, who is a great man, who is getting great results at the school I love....and it seems we are close to running him off...and the guy has conducted himself better than any of the previous coaches I know of while at MU with regard to personal conduct. He doesn't deserve to be crucified for things that are largely out of his control.
Solid post Ners.
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May we please close off this debate?
Everything that could be said has been said. Period. We need to move on.
Let's talk about recruiting, this year's prospects, Todd Mayo on campus, Vander's shot. Anything.
Six months from now, I hope we will be complaining about Buzz's rotations, shot selection or perhaps even our seed in the NCAA tournament. So lets move on.
Scoop Webmasters: Can we close this out???? Please???????????
Thank you.
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May we please close off this debate?
Everything that could be said has been said. Period. We need to move on.
Let's talk about recruiting, this year's prospects, Todd Mayo on campus, Vander's shot. Anything.
Six months from now, I hope we will be complaining about Buzz's rotations, shot selection or perhaps even our seed in the NCAA tournament. So lets move on.
Scoop Webmasters: Can we close this out???? Please???????????
Thank you.
While I agree with your general premise, I think you severely underestimate the creativity of some of the posters on this board (not to mention the zeal with which they beat dead horses).
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While I agree with your general premise, I think you severely underestimate the creativity of some of the posters on this board (not to mention the zeal with which they beat dead horses).
When you get a two-line post from me and a two-word post from Ners, I think it's safe to say there's not much left to say. I'm not sure anyone can beat dead horses better than the two of us.
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While I agree with your general premise, I think you severely underestimate the creativity of some of the posters on this board (not to mention the zeal with which they beat dead horses).
Okay I will be creative. What impact do you think all this overreation has had on our recruiting for the remaining open spot?