Some of us have been talking about who should replace Rick Barnes for the Longhorns. You coach's name comes up a bit with mixed feelings from our fans. How long does Buzz Williams have left on his contract?
We know Buzz has Texas ties.
http://www.shaggybevo.com/board/showthread.php/105514-Potential-coaching-candidates./page2
Year-to-year.
Doesn't matter. If he wanted to go back to Texas, he'd have gone to A&M, where he was an assistant and the top target this past summer. Buzz has a rolling contract that has been restructured every year. Maybe he'd leave for a Duke, UNC, UCLA, or other true blue blood, but I don't see him leaving any time soon.
And before you start with the "It's different, we're Texas" talk, understand I heard the same from A&M, Oklahoma, Arkansas, and numerous other fans.
You need to worry a bit more about who is going to replace Mack. Now that A&M is recruiting as a member of the SEC you boys might have trouble competing with our club football team.
For as long as Marquette will have him.
Buzz would listen to UT. Hot bed of talent for the Texas state U. He might have a reduced buyout too.
Y'all might wanna knock on IU's door. That self-absorbed prick will bolt if you offer a buck more and put his mug on the state flag.
Till God, his wife or MU send him elsewhere.
yikes guys.
Its a rollover deal at 6 or 7 years (I can't remember which) worth $2 million per
Quote from: Stone Cold on February 12, 2012, 10:05:44 PMBuzz would listen to UT. Hot bed of talent for the Texas state U. He might have a reduced buyout too.
He had ties to A&M and they didn't get any further than inquiring. Same hotbed of talent. I don't think UT is a big enough gig. It would have to be a true blue blood where basketball is the undisputed king, like Kansas, Duke, etc.
He doesn't coach football, so nobody in Austin would really care if he came. Buzz knows that.
Quote from: brewcity77 on February 12, 2012, 10:30:41 PM
He had ties to A&M and they didn't get any further than inquiring. Same hotbed of talent. I don't think UT is a big enough gig. It would have to be a true blue blood where basketball is the undisputed king, like Kansas, Duke, etc.
Not trying to be a dick, but other than being the same state, UT and A&M athletics are nothing alike.
UT, while not a traditional basketball school, is an absolute monster job. HUGE budget. HUGE salary. That athletic department is insanely big, and can afford whatever they want.
Buzz may stay at MU for 30 years. Who knows.
But, let's not pretend that UT and A&M are the similar gigs. They aren't.
And I thought the Illinois trolls would get here first.
Quote from: marqptm on February 12, 2012, 11:04:41 PM
And I thought the Illinois trolls would get here first.
+1. Is Webers job strictly based on making the tourney this year?
Someone should save that link to look at if people here ever complain about the quality of discourse. There was about 60 posts in that thread and maybe 15 were about the topic.
As for Buzz leaving, I think he would listen but that it wouldn't get further than that.
A question. Does anyone think that Buzz's shtick (and I don't mean that term in a dismissive way) would play well at a big public school? He just seems to fit in better at a smaller religiously centered place.
Quote from: Skitch on February 13, 2012, 12:24:58 AM
A question. Does anyone think that Buzz's shtick (and I don't mean that term in a dismissive way) would play well at a big public school? He just seems to fit in better at a smaller religiously centered place.
I think this is an interesting point. I think it might depend on the big public school. Basing my opinion entirely off perception which is probably flawed, I feel like the fanbase at say Arkansas or even A&M is much different than UT. The former might embrace a guy as charismatic and eccentric as Buzz the same way we have. They are larger schools, but they still see themselves as a bit more of the underdogs of the wider southern public school landscape.
But I have to imagine that a place with the scrutiny and constant expectations of UT would cause the relationship to sour sooner than later. They seem to want a coach and team to validate their over inflated sense of themselves. The first time a UT team under Buzz might "underperform" the unusual recruits, or emphasis on numbers, or Buzz-isms we've come to love would immediately become points of criticism.
I don't mean to make us as a fanbase out to be better than we are. We're as entitled, unreasonable, demanding, etc as the next guy. But at a place like UT, the constant bombardment is different - and a couple of big seasons doesn't lengthen your leash quite the same as it does at a place like MU. I just think the underdog mentality meshes much better with the way Buzz operates than somewhere with the expectations of UT.
This time of the year already? But we were doing so well!
"Like Momma says, 'Don't mess with happy.' And I'm happy."
Yea I see what you are saying MUburrow and definitely agree with your analysis. I was also talking about a lot of the Christian stuff. I know it's very important in Buzz's life and he doesn't hold back sharing that in interviews and things we see him involved in. I just wonder if that would fly as easily at a big state school or if he would be being told constantly to cool it down.
Quote from: Skitch on February 13, 2012, 12:24:58 AM
A question. Does anyone think that Buzz's shtick (and I don't mean that term in a dismissive way) would play well at a big public school? He just seems to fit in better at a smaller religiously centered place.
if he's winning his shtick will play well anywhere...if he's losing, it won't play well anywhere. tc tried to play up the private school thing a few times, it was the most pathetic thing i ever saw. he has a future job in tv preacher.
Quote from: Skitch on February 13, 2012, 01:07:01 AM
Yea I see what you are saying MUburrow and definitely agree with your analysis. I was also talking about a lot of the Christian stuff. I know it's very important in Buzz's life and he doesn't hold back sharing that in interviews and things we see him involved in. I just wonder if that would fly as easily at a big state school or if he would be being told constantly to cool it down.
Or maybe he lets it out because he is at MU and knows it will play well. Prior to coming to MU was he as outspoken as an assistant? no.
I totally agree with 2002MUalum here. I think a lot of you don't understand that UT is a HUGE job.
I'm sorry, I must have missed it ... who said, or what said, that Barnes is leaving or getting fired?
He isn't going anywhere so what is the point of this thread?
Quote from: strotty on February 13, 2012, 12:58:33 AM
This time of the year already? But we were doing so well!
"Like Momma says, 'Don't mess with happy.' And I'm happy."
To be fair, it's a Texas fan who wandered by and asked.
In theory, at least.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on February 13, 2012, 07:15:38 AM
I'm sorry, I must have missed it ... who said, or what said, that Barnes is leaving or getting fired?
He isn't going anywhere so what is the point of this thread?
Maybe that arm injury is more serious than it looks.
Quote from: Skitch on February 13, 2012, 12:24:58 AM
A question. Does anyone think that Buzz's shtick (and I don't mean that term in a dismissive way) would play well at a big public school? He just seems to fit in better at a smaller religiously centered place.
I'd say his schtick would fit right in at any southern school. More football than basketball, but coaches are father figures, even moreso in the south. His "character revealed" stuff would be a big hit .. and even at a public school, plenty of bible thumpers.
Quote from: Orangeblood on February 12, 2012, 09:48:55 PM
Some of us have been talking about who should replace Rick Barnes for the Longhorns. You coach's name comes up a bit with mixed feelings from our fans. How long does Buzz Williams have left on his contract?
We know Buzz has Texas ties.
http://www.shaggybevo.com/board/showthread.php/105514-Potential-coaching-candidates./page2
Andy Katz? Is that you?!
Buzz Williams would never fit in at Texas . Their a wine and cheese crowd. There is very little interest in basketball at that school.
Quote from: 2002MUalum on February 12, 2012, 11:01:19 PM
Not trying to be a dick, but other than being the same state, UT and A&M athletics are nothing alike.
UT, while not a traditional basketball school, is an absolute monster job. HUGE budget. HUGE salary. That athletic department is insanely big, and can afford whatever they want.
Buzz may stay at MU for 30 years. Who knows.
But, let's not pretend that UT and A&M are the similar gigs. They aren't.
To back this up:
http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Journal/Issues/2011/08/22/In-Depth/Budgets.aspx
Texas is beyond A&M. That being said, my impression is that UT would want someone a little more "refined" than Buzz. Honestly, I would think a Jamie Dixon or Thad Matta would be a better fit.
Quote from: buzzchiapet on February 13, 2012, 12:04:17 AM
+1. Is Webers job strictly based on making the tourney this year?
If he ain't dancing, he ain't coaching at Assembly Hall.
However, Buzz isn't leaving for Illinois. Maybe he'll float his name out there as the top candidate, only to find out Illinois was never interested though.
Unfortunately I think if Texas wants Buzz, MU might be in trouble.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on February 13, 2012, 06:41:06 AM
Or maybe he lets it out because he is at MU and knows it will play well. Prior to coming to MU was he as outspoken as an assistant? no.
I totally agree with 2002MUalum here. I think a lot of you don't understand that UT is a HUGE job.
outspoken as an assistant...mow there is an oxymoron if i have ever heard one!!
I agree with others to compare the UT job with A&M, Oklahoma, or Arkansas is to simply crazy.
Ut has probably the biggest athletics budget in the country. texas has more D1 basketball prospects than prolly any other state in the country year in and year out. And UT basically has there pick of them. Barnes gets multiple Mc donalds all-Americans every year.
Barnes is not only aging but his teams are not playing like they have in years past either.
Would have to think BUzz, as much as I like him, would take a completely different look at UT than he did the schools last summer.
Not saying he would take it for sure... I have no idea...But it is home and it is on a top 10 level of jobs.
Quote from: lab_warrior on February 13, 2012, 07:49:37 AM
Andy Katz? Is that you?!
1) Andy Katz lists coaches names b/c either that coach, that coach's agent / guy / rep / attorney or a hiring school's AD has told Katz the coach is interested. He never pulled TC's name out of thin air. It was in his columns b/c of TC.
2) Not sure if this poster is actually the mod of Orange Bloods (Chip Brown) but they broke a ton of conference realignment news last summer. Extremely well sourced.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/richard_deitsch/06/23/media.brown/index.html
If Buzz thought he could recruit at a top 10-15 type level at MU he would stay. Buzz works so hard at recruiting and that runs you down over time. At UT he would get better recruits and have to work 1/2 as hard. It would be like working 80 hour weeks trying to sell things and only closing 1 out of 5 deals. UT you would work 40 hours and close 2 out of 5.
Quote from: avid1010 on February 13, 2012, 06:20:51 AM
if he's winning his shtick will play well anywhere...if he's losing, it won't play well anywhere. tc tried to play up the private school thing a few times, it was the most pathetic thing i ever saw. he has a future job in tv preacher.
Exactly. He has a bigger leash at MU, or no leash. And he has built up a lot of good will here and the powers know he brings it... so down year or two will be tolerated. However, any coach that looses, with or without a shtick (and I for one don't mean this in a negative way, as Buzz's shtick is really just Buzz being himself and not putting up a false image), won't last real long.
We at MU have become used to winning and being ranked in the top 25. These are not birth rights, but lately many MU fans have a spaz at any loss or two. We should be greatful for what we have and not just accept it.
Quote from: kmwtrucks on February 13, 2012, 09:01:44 AM
If Buzz thought he could recruit at a top 10-15 type level at MU he would stay. Buzz works so hard at recruiting and that runs you down over time. At UT he would get better recruits and have to work 1/2 as hard. It would be like working 80 hour weeks trying to sell things and only closing 1 out of 5 deals. UT you would work 40 hours and close 2 out of 5.
I find this hard to believe.
I'm with 2002 and Hards on this one - UT is a huge job and comparing it to A+M is like comparing UNC to NC State.
Interesting, though, that our UT visitor reports that Texas fans are mixed over whether Buzz would be a good fit. IMHO Barnes is nothing special and Williams would be a huge upgrade.
Quote from: kmwtrucks on February 13, 2012, 09:01:44 AM
If Buzz thought he could recruit at a top 10-15 type level at MU he would stay. Buzz works so hard at recruiting and that runs you down over time. At UT he would get better recruits and have to work 1/2 as hard. It would be like working 80 hour weeks trying to sell things and only closing 1 out of 5 deals. UT you would work 40 hours and close 2 out of 5.
If this were football, I would agree with you. But it's basketball. And don't sell Rick Barnes short in this regard...he is considered a very good recruiter.
Let me know which thing your disagree with.
1)Texas is the most promient school in texas by a fairly wide margin (IE has the best rep, gets the most press, has the most fans, spends the most money on Sports)
2)The state of Texas averages how many HM recruits each year? 25 would be my guess compared to less then 5 for WISC.
3)It is much easier to recruit player's that have been fans of a school for many years then it is to recruit someone who knows very little about the school.
4)Its much easier to recruit player's from the state you are in: you already know all of the AAU coach's, High School coach's, etc. Its easier on travel becuase you are not flying accross the country to see see the kids.
Quote from: kmwtrucks on February 13, 2012, 11:14:07 AM
4)Its much easier to recruit player's from the state you are in: you already know all of the AAU coach's, High School coach's, etc. Its easier on travel becuase you are not flying accross the country to see see the kids.
This can have an influence but take Wisco as an example. Bo has not been able to land some of the best talent in WI the last decade including, but not limited to, Wes, Maymom, Blue, Bray, Christopherson, Tokoto, Lucious.
Quote from: Stronghold on February 13, 2012, 11:33:49 AM
This can have an influence but take Wisco as an example. Bo has not been able to land some of the best talent in WI the last decade including, but not limited to, Wes, Maymom, Blue, Bray, Christopherson, Tokoto, Lucious.
That's because Bo cooled on them.
I can see why A&M hates UT after reading 2 pages of that topic. Egos blown to the sky.
Quote from: Stronghold on February 13, 2012, 11:33:49 AM
This can have an influence but take Wisco as an example. Bo has not been able to land some of the best talent in WI the last decade including, but not limited to, Wes, Maymom, Blue, Bray, Christopherson, Tokoto, Lucious.
Burton.
Quote from: kmwtrucks on February 13, 2012, 11:14:07 AM
Let me know which thing your disagree with.
1)Texas is the most promient school in texas by a fairly wide margin (IE has the best rep, gets the most press, has the most fans, spends the most money on Sports)
2)The state of Texas averages how many HM recruits each year? 25 would be my guess compared to less then 5 for WISC.
3)It is much easier to recruit player's that have been fans of a school for many years then it is to recruit someone who knows very little about the school.
4)Its much easier to recruit player's from the state you are in: you already know all of the AAU coach's, High School coach's, etc. Its easier on travel becuase you are not flying accross the country to see see the kids.
5) They have their own TV network? I'm not sure how that is working out but not many schools have their own sports tv network.
Quote from: 2002MUalum on February 12, 2012, 11:01:19 PM
Not trying to be a dick, but other than being the same state, UT and A&M athletics are nothing alike.
UT, while not a traditional basketball school, is an absolute monster job. HUGE budget. HUGE salary. That athletic department is insanely big, and can afford whatever they want.
Buzz may stay at MU for 30 years. Who knows.
But, let's not pretend that UT and A&M are the similar gigs. They aren't.
The Texas A&M athletic budget is about $75 million, putting them slightly ahead of teams like Louisville, WVU or Illinois.
UT is in the stratosphere with a budget of over $150 million.
Quote from: The Equalizer on February 13, 2012, 12:52:13 PM
The Texas A&M athletic budget is about $75 million, putting them slightly ahead of teams like Louisville, WVU or Illinois.
UT is in the stratosphere with a budget of over $150 million.
That's a lot of money for mediocre teams.
Edit - It looks like Coach Buzz and Coach Barnes make about the same amount of money right now. If he leaves, though, I doubt it'll be for money. He's a religous/family-oriented dude. I'd guess that his wife has as much as a say in moving as he does :)
Quote from: downtown85 on February 13, 2012, 12:21:30 PM
5) They have their own TV network? I'm not sure how that is working out but not many schools have their own sports tv network.
Didn't you hear, we have the Marquette Radio Network, same thing!
Barnes isn't getting dumped this year. UT is the only school I would worry about for Buzz though. I don't think he's polished enough for what a Kansas, Duke, NC, Kentucky, UCLA would look for. Minnesota and Illinois may have openings this year, and feel like they can just grab Buzz, but I don't even know if it's more than a 30 second phone call to Buzz to understand they don't have a chance.
The Illini board has a 40 pg thread on this, with most people wanting Buzz as one of their top 3 options along with Shaka, Painter, and Grant. Seems like they are under some pressure to hire an African American candidate though.
Quote from: dw3dw3dw3 on February 13, 2012, 12:59:58 PM
Seems like they are under some pressure to hire an African American candidate though.
Really? Why is that?
No minorities were finalists for either the AD or the football position...I believe that is what I read.
Quote from: Skatastrophy on February 13, 2012, 01:01:23 PM
Really? Why is that?
http://www.csnchicago.com/preps/news/Will-Simeons-Smith-be-the-next-coach-at-?blockID=649950&feedID=629
Because they have never had an african american head coach for the basketball or football teams, and two of the members of the board are being very vocal about this:
http://espn.go.com/chicago/ncf/story/_/id/7481667/two-trustees-vote-illinois-hire-tim-beckman-cite-race (http://espn.go.com/chicago/ncf/story/_/id/7481667/two-trustees-vote-illinois-hire-tim-beckman-cite-race)
I'd be pissed if MU hired a guy based on his race instead of him being the best guy for the job.
Quote from: downtown85 on February 13, 2012, 12:21:30 PM
5) They have their own TV network? I'm not sure how that is working out but not many schools have their own sports tv network.
Great for Texas, not so great for the Big 12. It was a major reason for Texas A&M deciding to look to the SEC, and it was a big part of Nebraska and Colorado being pried away last year.
Other Big 12 members were not pissed about the cable network per se, but by Texas' making it all their own, keeping all the revenue to themselves, and it's potential to be a huge recruiting tool for Texas.
Texas is not A&M. UT was in serious jeopardy of not making the tournament a few weeks ago. They are on the bubble now. A school like Texas shouldn't be missing the NCAA Tournament considering they aren't coming off probation or some kind of major upheaval. Hard to see Barnes not there, but if they miss the tournament the seat will get hotter.
Quote from: LittleMurs on February 13, 2012, 01:53:17 PM
Great for Texas, not so great for the Big 12. It was a major reason for Texas A&M deciding to look to the SEC, and it was a big part of Nebraska and Colorado being pried away last year.
Other Big 12 members were not pissed about the cable network per se, but by Texas' making it all their own, keeping all the revenue to themselves, and it's potential to be a huge recruiting tool for Texas.
No, they were ALL pissed (and have been at Texas for some time)...some just had more options to demonstrate their anger than others.
'tis the season, ho-ho-ho. It is nice that we have a coach that a lot of other programs covet. Buzz has been straightfoward after every season about the fact that he is not leaving and why. I'm not going to worry one second about it until Buzz says he is leaving. Don't mess with happy.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on February 13, 2012, 10:02:27 AM
I'm with 2002 and Hards on this one - UT is a huge job and comparing it to A+M is like comparing UNC to NC State.
Interesting, though, that our UT visitor reports that Texas fans are mixed over whether Buzz would be a good fit. IMHO Barnes is nothing special and Williams would be a huge upgrade.
The mixed feelings could be over this type of statement, though not entirely sure what they mean by it
Top of page two from that site
Quote Originally Posted by Red Five
"Buzz Williams would be an excellent choice."Quote Originally Posted by Beast 512
"Not according to people that know him." http://www.shaggybevo.com/board/showthread.php/105514-Potential-coaching-candidates./page2
I read that. I interpreted it to mean that somebody close to him told them there was no chance he was coming.
This little nugget from the Illini board is fun, apparently we weren't that good in the 70s.
http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=169&f=2616&t=8696304&p=21
Quote from: Aughnanure on February 13, 2012, 04:12:12 PM
This little nugget from the Illini board is fun, apparently we weren't that good in the 70s.
I have a lot of family that went to Illinois and I follow that program as close as any program after Marquette but some posters there (as with some posters everywhere) have serious delusions about the historical value of that program.
I have read some people actually wondering if Billy Donovan is a candidate to replace Weber. I think that says it all.
On a side note, I don't think Illinois would put up the money for Buzz that MU does now. They have a coach that took them to the title game and he is nowhere near compensated like Buzz is right now.
http://collegesportsblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2011/05/texas-rick-barnes-gets-200000-raise-sala.html
Barnes makes 2.4 M a year. If Buzz makes 2M, not much difference salary-wise. Comes down to conference, Texas ties, etc. Should not be a monetary factor.
Quote from: nyg on February 13, 2012, 04:27:38 PM
http://collegesportsblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2011/05/texas-rick-barnes-gets-200000-raise-sala.html
Barnes makes 2.4 M a year. If Buzz makes 2M, not much difference salary-wise. Comes down to conference, Texas ties, etc. Should not be a monetary factor.
Buzz is closer to 2.4 or more now. Barnes sniffed at the MU job when Crean left because of Strong. Cottingham and Wild knew how to protect and lock up the brand after CTC left in the dark of the night. That said, UT would have pull.
Quote from: MU7703 on February 13, 2012, 04:22:53 PM
I have a lot of family that went to Illinois and I follow that program as close as any program after Marquette but some posters there (as with some posters everywhere) have serious delusions about the historical value of that program.
I have read some people actually wondering if Billy Donovan is a candidate to replace Weber. I think that says it all.
On a side note, I don't think Illinois would put up the money for Buzz that MU does now. They have a coach that took them to the title game and he is nowhere near compensated like Buzz is right now.
Illinois is not elite. Marquette is not elite. We're both in the pile of schools after the blue bloods. You cannot even compare the schools equally.
That being said Marquette Basketball > Illinois Basketball in everything that matters.
Quote from: dw3dw3dw3 on February 13, 2012, 12:59:58 PM
Didn't you hear, we have the Marquette Radio Network, same thing!
Barnes isn't getting dumped this year. UT is the only school I would worry about for Buzz though. I don't think he's polished enough for what a Kansas, Duke, NC, Kentucky, UCLA would look for. Minnesota and Illinois may have openings this year, and feel like they can just grab Buzz, but I don't even know if it's more than a 30 second phone call to Buzz to understand they don't have a chance.
The Illini board has a 40 pg thread on this, with most people wanting Buzz as one of their top 3 options along with Shaka, Painter, and Grant. Seems like they are under some pressure to hire an African American candidate though.
Not worried in the least about losing Buzz to Illinois. Don't see any reason why that is a step up for Buzz right now.
Quote from: Dr. Blackheart on February 13, 2012, 08:54:08 PM
Buzz is closer to 2.4 or more now. Barnes sniffed at the MU job when Crean left because of Strong. Cottingham and Wild knew how to protect and lock up the brand after CTC left in the dark of the night. That said, UT would have pull.
Barnes is a state employee, so we know how much he makes from UT, right?
Do we know how much Nike and other sponsors are paying him for camps and such?
That might be what makes the UT job more lucrative, and we won't see those numbers.
Just thinking out loud...
Quote from: Aughnanure on February 13, 2012, 04:12:12 PM
This little nugget from the Illini board is fun, apparently we weren't that good in the 70s.
http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=169&f=2616&t=8696304&p=21
Scout board...obvious trolls
Quote from: Aughnanure on February 13, 2012, 04:12:12 PMThis little nugget from the Illini board is fun, apparently we weren't that good in the 70s.
http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=169&f=2616&t=8696304&p=21
OMFG that thread is hilarious. I'm not going to say we're elite, but Illinois is only on par with Marquette in terms of basketball history if you go back to the early 1950s. Personally, I don't think Texas would have much of a chance at drawing Buzz away, but there is absolutely
NO WAY IN HELL a school like Illinois would have any remote shred of a hope of Buzz heading there unless around 50 high-majors simply imploded upon themselves. Illinois isn't elite, and frankly, isn't even high-level. They're at best about the 7th best team in their conference historically.
Quote from: Aughnanure on February 13, 2012, 04:12:12 PM
This little nugget from the Illini board is fun, apparently we weren't that good in the 70s.
http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=169&f=2616&t=8696304&p=21
From that thread:
Quote from: chitownredbirdaNot to beat a dead horse, but it seems to me the only "home run" names I've seen mentioned are Matta & Donovan.
And the main objections seem to be:
(1) They will never leave where they are.
(2) OSU & UF will match any offer we make no matter how good.
(3) We can't afford them.
(4) They will not only turn us down but laugh at us when doing so.
With respect to (1) - Isn't it more likely than not that the jobs currently held by these two are not their "dream jobs"? And if you aren't at the one place you want to be, don't you consider other opportunities? In addition, IMHO, a very reasonable argument can be made that UI BB is a "better job" than OSU or UF BB. Also, isn't it known that these two have "looked around" a little bit within the recent past.
With respect to (2) - So what? If our package is competitive and they want to leave, they will. While it may be "always about the (most) money" for the (pro) players (and maybe some collegians as well biggrin), maybe it's different with coaches. Haven't we heard that Sumlin turned down more money from us?
With respect to (3) - If one of these (or any coach for that matter) turned us into a truly elite program, does anyone doubt that the financial benefit to DIA and UI would dwarf the salary being paid?
With respect to (4) - Guys like this wouldn't laugh at any serious offer from anyone. It isn't "good business".
Hilarious! I would love to hear his "very reasonable argument" that UI BB is better than Florida BB.
Quote from: PTM on February 13, 2012, 09:09:16 PM
Illinois is not elite. Marquette is not elite. We're both in the pile of schools after the blue bloods. You cannot even compare the schools equally.
That being said Marquette Basketball > Illinois Basketball in everything that matters.
Despite Illini fans ranting that their program is a solid 15-20 spots ahead of ours in the historical landscape of college basketball, I actually think the two programs are about as comparable as one could imagine. We have the title. Each school has a runner up finish. We have the exact same number of NCAA tournament appearances. They have a few more Final Fours and Elite Eights (bolstered by pre-1960s numbers). Both schools have had segments of sustained success, sprinkled in with a few down eras.
Illini fans are just going on their own inflated sense of self for being in the Big Bore. I think that each school is in the second tier of national programs and if I were Buzz I would see absolutely no reason to make an almost perfectly horizontal move.
The only thing i can see that puts U of I above MU is conference stability. and if buzz doesn't get scared bythe changing landscape, we have nothing to fear for the u of i s of the world.
Quote from: boyonthedock on February 14, 2012, 03:08:49 AM
The only thing i can see that puts U of I above MU is conference stability. and if buzz doesn't get scared bythe changing landscape, we have nothing to fear for the u of i s of the world.
If he's scared by the changing landscape, where does one go for stability? Certainly not the B12.
Quote from: boyonthedock on February 14, 2012, 03:08:49 AM
The only thing i can see that puts U of I above MU is conference stability. and if buzz doesn't get scared bythe changing landscape, we have nothing to fear for the u of i s of the world.
Conference stability would be the only thing.
Quote from: AWegrzyn17 on February 14, 2012, 02:18:45 AM
Despite Illini fans ranting that their program is a solid 15-20 spots ahead of ours in the historical landscape of college basketball, I actually think the two programs are about as comparable as one could imagine. We have the title. Each school has a runner up finish. We have the exact same number of NCAA tournament appearances. They have a few more Final Fours and Elite Eights (bolstered by pre-1960s numbers). Both schools have had segments of sustained success, sprinkled in with a few down eras.
Illini fans are just going on their own inflated sense of self for being in the Big Bore. I think that each school is in the second tier of national programs and if I were Buzz I would see absolutely no reason to make an almost perfectly horizontal move.
Living in Chicago, I have seen first hand the absolute delusion of Illinois fans. All you need to know is some still think their Rose Bowl game against USC was "way more competitive than the score indicates" and that thread shows you all you need to know about their view of the basketball program.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on February 14, 2012, 07:30:58 AM
If he's scared by the changing landscape, where does one go for stability? Certainly not the B12.
I don't think Buzz is leaving, but it's not the B12 we're talking about, it's Texas. If the B12 implodes, Texas will land on its feet.
I don't think Buzz would ever take a blue-blood coaching job and certainly not a big-budget (e.g. UT) job this early in his career. I don't think money makes any difference with Buzz... not to say that he doesn't want to make more of it, but Buzz strikes me as a guy who wants to coach. As a matter of example:
-- If you gave Calipari a $5M/yr annuity for the rest of his life on the condition he'd never again coach anything higher than a high school JV team, IMO, he would take it in a heartbeat.
-- If you offered Buzz the same thing, I honestly don't think he would.
In any event, I don't know that Buzz would want to go to a program where he could be on the chopping block after one bad year... blue-bloods and big-budgets have no loyalty to their coaches, only to winning. If even Coach K strung together 3 straight years of NIT appearances, you better believe the calls for his retirement would be heard all the way to Uzbekistan. Not to say MU fans wouldn't feel some discontent after three years of watching the dance at home, but it's not going to be the psychotic anger you'd see at places like UNC, Texas, Kansas, KY, etc. (one intangible benefit of MU not having a state-wide fan base composed of uneducated rednecks.) All it would take is a down recruiting year, a few unfortunate injuries, or losing a prized recruit to a rival, and Buzz could fall from blue-blood/big-budget to JUCO ass't in a year's time. Yes... he could get a guaranteed multimillion dollar contract at one of those schools, but if it's job security (i.e. not financial security) Buzz wants, he isn't going to find any major program that comes close to what he has at MU.
In other words, I think the leash at MU is much longer and quite a bit more forgiving insomuch as while we certainly enjoy and expect to win at MU, most MU stakeholders don't feel entitled to it (present scooper company notwithstanding) and would happily tolerate 2-4 years of NIT runs sandwiched by Sweet Sixteens and the occasional Final Four run.
Quote from: Benny B on February 14, 2012, 11:52:51 AM
I don't think Buzz would ever take a blue-blood coaching job and certainly not a big-budget (e.g. UT) job this early in his career. I don't think money makes any difference with Buzz... not to say that he doesn't want to make more of it, but Buzz strikes me as a guy who wants to coach. As a matter of example:
-- If you gave Calipari a $5M/yr annuity for the rest of his life on the condition he'd never again coach anything higher than a high school JV team, IMO, he would take it in a heartbeat.
-- If you offered Buzz the same thing, I honestly don't think he would.
In any event, I don't know that Buzz would want to go to a program where he could be on the chopping block after one bad year... blue-bloods and big-budgets have no loyalty to their coaches, only to winning. If even Coach K strung together 3 straight years of NIT appearances, you better believe the calls for his retirement would be heard all the way to Uzbekistan. Not to say MU fans wouldn't feel some discontent after three years of watching the dance at home, but it's not going to be the psychotic anger you'd see at places like UNC, Texas, Kansas, KY, etc. (one intangible benefit of MU not having a state-wide fan base composed of uneducated rednecks.) All it would take is a down recruiting year, a few unfortunate injuries, or losing a prized recruit to a rival, and Buzz could fall from blue-blood/big-budget to JUCO ass't in a year's time. Yes... he could get a guaranteed multimillion dollar contract at one of those schools, but if it's job security (i.e. not financial security) Buzz wants, he isn't going to find any major program that comes close to what he has at MU.
In other words, I think the leash at MU is much longer and quite a bit more forgiving insomuch as while we certainly enjoy and expect to win at MU, most MU stakeholders don't feel entitled to it (present scooper company notwithstanding) and would happily tolerate 2-4 years of NIT runs sandwiched by Sweet Sixteens and the occasional Final Four run.
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think Buzz is shopping around, but to assume that he wouldn't consider to a top job (if available) is naive.
Quote from: 2002MUalum on February 14, 2012, 01:13:27 PM
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think Buzz is shopping around, but to assume that he wouldn't consider to a top job (if available) is naive.
Please enlighten me. What does our program lack that Buzz has given any indication is important to him? Has he ever skipped the opportunity to publicly express how lucky and grateful he is to have the Marquette job? If he bailed for a "more prestigious" post, that would make him among the biggest backstabbers (not to mention hypocrites) in college sports history. It would make Crean's unexpected departure look like was dragged kicking and screaming from the Al by Father Wild's henchmen and thrown into a slushy puddle on Wells. If the persona we have come to believe in is genuine, I just can't see it happening.
I am more worried that given his stress level, he will retire at an early age like Al did.
Quote from: warriorchick on February 14, 2012, 01:35:25 PM
Please enlighten me. What does our program lack that Buzz has given any indication is important to him? Has he ever skipped the opportunity to publicly express how lucky and grateful he is to have the Marquette job? If he bailed for a "more prestigious" post, that would make him among the biggest backstabbers (not to mention hypocrites) in college sports history. It would make Crean's unexpected departure look like was dragged kicking and screaming from the Al by Father Wild's henchmen and thrown into a slushy puddle on Wells. If the persona we have come to believe in is genuine, I just can't see it happening.
I am more worried that given his stress level, he will retire at an early age like Al did.
I like Buzz. I don't envision him leaving anytime soon. But, let's not be blind to the fact that if a top program (yes, that includes Texas) comes calling,
ANY COACH might make a move.
Most successful coaches say all the right things and are well liked/loved... right up until they leave for the next gig.
University of Kansas- Roy Williams had the KU job. He said all the right things, and was tremendously successful. KU fans were never really worried about Roy leaving.
- Roy left KU for his dream job (after a lot of courting from UNC)
Xavier University- Thad Matta and Sean Miller said all of the right things about Xavier. When a top notch gig opened, they each took it. (Ohio State and Arizona respectively)
- "I'm not a candidate. It's that plain and that simple," Matta told The Cincinnati Enquirer on June 29.
- Matta took the Ohio State job less than a week later.
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=1835879 (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=1835879)
Marquette University- Al McGuire wanted to leave MU to coach the Bucks. MU wouldn't let him out of his contract.
It happens. Coaches leave sometimes. Doesn't mean they are evil. Doesn't mean they are dishonest.
Quote from: warriorchick on February 14, 2012, 01:35:25 PM
What does our program lack that Buzz has given any indication is important to him? Has he ever skipped the opportunity to publicly express how lucky and grateful he is to have the Marquette job? If he bailed for a "more prestigious" post, that would make him among the biggest backstabbers (not to mention hypocrites) in college sports history. It would make Crean's unexpected departure look like was dragged kicking and screaming from the Al by Father Wild's henchmen and thrown into a slushy puddle on Wells.
Since he appreciates what he has, he can never leave? If you leave for a different job, you're automatically a backstabber? He's loved so he shouldn't want any more? None of this makes any sense.
Quote from: 2002MUalum on February 14, 2012, 02:33:40 PM
I like Buzz. I don't envision him leaving anytime soon. But, let's not be blind to the fact that if a top program (yes, that includes Texas) comes calling, ANY COACH might make a move.
Most successful coaches say all the right things and are well liked/loved... right up until they leave for the next gig.
University of Kansas
- Roy Williams had the KU job. He said all the right things, and was tremendously successful. KU fans were never really worried about Roy leaving.
- Roy left KU for his dream job (after a lot of courting from UNC)
Xavier University
- Thad Matta and Sean Miller said all of the right things about Xavier. When a top notch gig opened, they each took it. (Ohio State and Arizona respectively)
- "I'm not a candidate. It's that plain and that simple," Matta told The Cincinnati Enquirer on June 29.
- Matta took the Ohio State job less than a week later.
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=1835879 (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=1835879)
Marquette University
- Al McGuire wanted to leave MU to coach the Bucks. MU wouldn't let him out of his contract.
It happens. Coaches leave sometimes. Doesn't mean they are evil. Doesn't mean they are dishonest.
My question remains unanswered. To put it another way: knowing what we know about Buzz Williams, what unfulfilled need or want would he have as a coach that would require him to leave Marquette to get?
Quote from: Benny B on February 14, 2012, 11:52:51 AM
I don't think Buzz would ever take a blue-blood coaching job and certainly not a big-budget (e.g. UT) job this early in his career. I don't think money makes any difference with Buzz... not to say that he doesn't want to make more of it, but Buzz strikes me as a guy who wants to coach. As a matter of example:
-- If you gave Calipari a $5M/yr annuity for the rest of his life on the condition he'd never again coach anything higher than a high school JV team, IMO, he would take it in a heartbeat.
-- If you offered Buzz the same thing, I honestly don't think he would.
In any event, I don't know that Buzz would want to go to a program where he could be on the chopping block after one bad year... blue-bloods and big-budgets have no loyalty to their coaches, only to winning. If even Coach K strung together 3 straight years of NIT appearances, you better believe the calls for his retirement would be heard all the way to Uzbekistan. Not to say MU fans wouldn't feel some discontent after three years of watching the dance at home, but it's not going to be the psychotic anger you'd see at places like UNC, Texas, Kansas, KY, etc. (one intangible benefit of MU not having a state-wide fan base composed of uneducated rednecks.) All it would take is a down recruiting year, a few unfortunate injuries, or losing a prized recruit to a rival, and Buzz could fall from blue-blood/big-budget to JUCO ass't in a year's time. Yes... he could get a guaranteed multimillion dollar contract at one of those schools, but if it's job security (i.e. not financial security) Buzz wants, he isn't going to find any major program that comes close to what he has at MU.
In other words, I think the leash at MU is much longer and quite a bit more forgiving insomuch as while we certainly enjoy and expect to win at MU, most MU stakeholders don't feel entitled to it (present scooper company notwithstanding) and would happily tolerate 2-4 years of NIT runs sandwiched by Sweet Sixteens and the occasional Final Four run.
Do not agree for several reasons.
Coach Cal has all the money he needs. He wouldn't waste his time at this point in his career on something that wasn't going to put him in the major spotlight and deliver a sense of accomplishment. Sure, Buzz wants to coach but money makes the world go around. He wouldn't just coach a JV team. If money wasn't important, then he can take a pay cut and just coach and we can use the money elsewhere. That's not going to happen, nor should it. He deserves what he is making in terms of what the market has set.
Why is it that fan bases always go altruistic with their own coaches when coaching changes are in the wind or even when changes are not expected? Coaches come and coaches leave.
Al McGuire left
Rick Majerus left
Kevin O'Neill left
Tom Crean left
Buzz left New Orleans
Buzz will eventually leave Marquette
The lack of football hurts us in the new world where football is king. It's not so much about what conference, but what does your school have to offer. Someone else brought up the Big 12 not being solid or stable, but the schools in that conference have a lot less exposure than a basketball only school in the Big East. In the eyes of some coaches looking for jobs, this is a key factor. Whether it does for Buzz or not remains to be seen. We are at greater risk than a school with football to be left out in the shuffle game.
Your viewpoint on it taking merely one bad recruiting year, a string of injuries, etc to have him lose favor at a big time program is valid but on the flip side, it can also work in your favor. As much as people hate Crean, he will ultimately have better teams at IU than at MU because he can get into a player's home easier with that IU calling card. He has access to better recruits and it's easier to get that talent. Crean had to work his ass off to recruit MU, especially in the early days with the Old Gym, a losing team, an average conference. Buzz has to work his ass off to recruit at MU today. It would be noticeably easier to recruit as the head coach at Texas then at MU. At Illinois, it might be easier but not nearly the edge that Texas would have. I'd call Illinois and MU a wash.
Also, job security at MU isn't guaranteed either. Those same scenarios you outlined in your post have existed at MU. Look at the number of posters here that wanted Crean gone and he delivered Wade, a Final Four, multiple NCAA appearances in a row. Imagine if Rick Majerus was our head coach during the internet era. Do you think if Buzz missed two NCAAs and DID NOT have a Final Four to fall back on that some MU fans would want him out? That's the nature of being a fan. We can't go on this board more than 2 straight losses by a certain team from a former coach of ours before we're inundated with rumors that he'll be fired the next time the sun comes up. The same is going to be true not only at Texas (as you stated) but at places like MU. We've been spoiled here since 2002. Down years will happen. As a coach, you have to determine where is the best place to be, with the best talent and the best ability to get that talent to play for you. The money, being equal, will be less of a factor. If the money isn't equal, will be a factor if they are stepping up. Good thing the administration made a bigger commitment in 1999 to pay and have continued that through until now. That eliminates one part of the competitive equation.
Quote from: warriorchick on February 14, 2012, 02:49:56 PM
My question remains unanswered. To put it another way: knowing what we know about Buzz Williams, what unfulfilled need or want would he have as a coach that would require him to leave Marquette to get?
National attention on a daily basis. How many times are the names Pitino, Calhoun, Boheim, Kryshefwvmskdski, etc. brought in national media attention? All the time. Buzz doesn't get that kinda attention. Even Mike Brey get's more praise/respect from media IMO.
Quote from: warriorchick on February 14, 2012, 02:49:56 PM
My question remains unanswered. To put it another way: knowing what we know about Buzz Williams, what unfulfilled need or want would he have as a coach that would require him to leave Marquette to get?
I don't think any of us know, but here are some that one could through out there as reasonable.
- A school with strong football which means a permanent home in a solid conference, or at the very least, always will have a home in a solid conference if the conference shuffling continues.
- A larger recruiting base close to the school. Texas churns out many more DI players than Wisconsin.
- No state income taxes
- Closer to your home roots
He turned down Oklahoma and Texas A&M when they came sniffing last year. All meet your criteria, looper. Very few coaches spend their entire career at one school. Buzz won't, as he was head coach at UNO, as well as assistant at several other places. It is the nature to be fired or move up the ladder. With him having turned down OU and TA&M, the only one with more stature closer to home is Texas. And if they fire Barnes, they are fools. This year's team is down because of early entries and if the AD there has an ounce of sense he knows it. A school that would fire Barnes after one bad year after the run he has had there doesn't deserve Buzz.
But I will take Buzz at his word. Last spring he expressed his gratitude with MU, why it is such a good fit for him, that he was getting used to the idea of putting down roots for the first time in his adult life, and was happy. And his wife had told him to not mess with happy. I believe him.
One potential problem I see, however, is if he and the new AD have incompatible personalities. That could upset the whole applecart. I have not heard any rumors of such, but life happens sometimes. As for conference stability, our president is a Georgetown alum and our AD is a ND alum. They understand the relationship between school and big time athletics. If MU stays close to those two schools, the conference challenge will work itself out.
Quote from: Hoopaloop on February 14, 2012, 03:00:52 PM
I don't think any of us know, but here are some that one could through out there as reasonable.
- A school with strong football which means a permanent home in a solid conference, or at the very least, always will have a home in a solid conference if the conference shuffling continues.
- A larger recruiting base close to the school. Texas churns out many more DI players than Wisconsin.
- No state income taxes
- Closer to your home roots
A chance to be on ESPN Gameday regularly - like MU was when TC was here - oh, sorry, that didn't happen - just some Crean fanboy's wild imagination at work.
Quote from: warriorchick on February 14, 2012, 02:49:56 PM
My question remains unanswered. To put it another way: knowing what we know about Buzz Williams, what unfulfilled need or want would he have as a coach that would require him to leave Marquette to get?
I believe Buzz is an honest guy, and I'm glad he's MU's coach.
I know MU has provided Buzz with a ton of opportunity and support, and that has been received with Buzz's gratitude and loyalty.
However, coaching is a fluid profession, and nobody here can't pretend to know Buzz's decision making process.
If Buzz is offered a better professional opportunity for him and his family, he should take it, and we shouldn't hate him for it.
Quote from: 2002MUalum on February 14, 2012, 03:17:59 PM
I believe Buzz is an honest guy, and I'm glad he's MU's coach.
I know MU has provided Buzz with a ton of opportunity and support, and that has been received with Buzz's gratitude and loyalty.
However, coaching is a fluid profession, and nobody here can't pretend to know Buzz's decision making process.
If Buzz is offered a better professional opportunity for him and his family, he should take it, and we shouldn't hate him for it.
agreed. why wouldn't he? we all would. this is his career, his life. he'll weigh all the positives against all the negatives and make the right decision for himself and his family.
Quote from: murespect on February 14, 2012, 02:55:56 PM
National attention on a daily basis. How many times are the names Pitino, Calhoun, Boheim, Kryshefwvmskdski, etc. brought in national media attention? All the time. Buzz doesn't get that kinda attention. Even Mike Brey get's more praise/respect from media IMO.
Really? National attention? Not everybody in America is so attention-starved that they'd step over their own mother to get into the spotlight. I'd bet Buzz doesn't even have a Facebook account. He sure as heck doesn't tweet. The guy doesn't even have an agent, let alone a publicist.
I'm glad he's a heck of a lot better as a basketball coach than attention monger.
Quote from: Hoopaloop on February 14, 2012, 03:00:52 PM
I don't think any of us know, but here are some that one could through out there as reasonable.
- A school with strong football which means a permanent home in a solid conference, or at the very least, always will have a home in a solid conference if the conference shuffling continues.
Who cares? Last I checked, a whole bunch of non-football, non-BCS schools made the NCAA tournament last year. Xavier, Gonzaga, San Diego State are a few recent examples of non-BCS basketball programs that are doing just fine.
- A larger recruiting base close to the school. Texas churns out many more DI players than Wisconsin.
Buzz doesn't seem to have any problem recruiting anywhere in the country right now. The guy has his own jet. He can be just about anywhere in the country faster than Bo can drive to Rhinelander.
Ha!
- Closer to your home roots
Had the opportunity already... turned it down.
[/list]
Quote from: 2002MUalum on February 14, 2012, 03:17:59 PM
If Buzz is offered a better professional opportunity for him and his family, he should take it, and we shouldn't hate him for it.
Are his wife and kids going to be assistant coaches?
Quote from: Benny B on February 14, 2012, 03:28:35 PM
Are his wife and kids going to be assistant coaches?
No, but I think it's reasonable to assume that a coach would consider his family in his career decisions.
Attention monger? who dat?
Quote from: Benny B on February 14, 2012, 03:28:35 PM
Really? National attention? Not everybody in America is so attention-starved that they'd step over their own mother to get into the spotlight. I'd bet Buzz doesn't even have a Facebook account. He sure as heck doesn't tweet. The guy doesn't even have an agent, let alone a publicist.
I'm glad he's a heck of a lot better as a basketball coach than attention monger.
Are his wife and kids going to be assistant coaches?
he probably doesn't have a facebook, you're right (smartass).
but he might care (at least a little bit, and maybe one day down the road) about being highly regarded as one of the best college basketball coaches in the nation.
the question was posed about what other programs may have to offer that MU does not, and that's one of the many, many answers. it doesn't mean that's what Buzz cares about.
Quote from: murespect on February 14, 2012, 03:37:20 PM
but he might care (at least a little bit, and maybe one day down the road) about being highly regarded as one of the best college basketball coaches in the nation.
the question was posed about what other programs may have to offer that MU does not, and that's one of the many, many answers. it doesn't mean that's what Buzz cares about.
Good point. Marquette has never had a coach that has been considered to be one of the best in the nation, so there is no reason to believe it will ever happen.
Quote from: warriorchick on February 14, 2012, 04:05:34 PM
Good point. Marquette has never had a coach that has been considered to be one of the best in the nation, so there is no reason to believe it will ever happen.
you're missing the point completely. the point is, other schools have a much larger national attention than does MU, and that is one possible factor why a coach might possibly want to leave MU for another program.
notoriety as one of the best coaches in college bball is just one thing that national attention can provide. that doesn't mean one cannot win the award without coaching at a top tiered school -- but it helps when you're always in spotlight.
Quote from: murespect on February 14, 2012, 04:21:37 PM
you're missing the point completely. the point is, other schools have a much larger national attention than does MU, and that is one possible factor why a coach might possibly want to leave MU for another program.
I'd say that the list of schools that 'have a MUCH (emphasis added) larger national attention' is quite short and is limited to those historic and frequently mentioned institutions. Not to bring up our infamous prior coach but I believe him when he said there were only a handful of jobs he'd have left MU for, Indiana being one. Sure, if Duke calls Buzz might at least listen. And Texas could be a draw simply because it's home.
For me, the end all, be all in this conversation is that if Buzz came out in front of the MU faithful and said "Its Texas, its Texas" I would understand and believe him. We make fun of Crean for that because we have the sense that he would have said that at a large number universities upon leaving. If Buzz says it about Texas, given what I/we (think) I/we know about Buzz, it would make sense for any number of the reasons listed - chief among them his home roots, the ease of recruiting translating into less time on the road and more time with his family, and the intangible sense of belonging that might come with coaching the end all be all for many native Texans - I would believe him and not fault him for it.
Anyone who buys into money ain't that important to Buzz needs a few doses of Exlax. Take a look at how he lives now, comin' from nothin', and its crystal clear, he enjoys nice things.
And he is getting compensated adequately.
Quote from: tower912 on February 14, 2012, 06:11:17 PM
And he is getting compensated adequately.
Yep, and one can always do better.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on February 14, 2012, 03:14:05 PM
A chance to be on ESPN Gameday regularly - like MU was when TC was here - oh, sorry, that didn't happen - just some Crean fanboy's wild imagination at work.
I'll fix it for you.
Marquette fanboy who remembers the great attention and turnout MU got for Gameday. Yes, I thought we had it more than once. Unfortunately we haven't had it since.
What I've seen at the games I attend in Milwaukee is a student section that isn't quite as engaged as they were before. I don't know why that is. Is it because Crean used to hype up the students, slapping palms or buying them pizza or hot chocolate and donuts while they were in line? I'm sure Buzz does the Pizza and chocolate stuff. Whatever it is, I wish our students were a bit more into Buzz in terms of showing up and cheering. This is not a bad thing to desire, is it?
Quote from: tower912 on February 14, 2012, 03:12:03 PM
He turned down Oklahoma and Texas A&M when they came sniffing last year. All meet your criteria, looper. Very few coaches spend their entire career at one school. Buzz won't, as he was head coach at UNO, as well as assistant at several other places. It is the nature to be fired or move up the ladder. With him having turned down OU and TA&M, the only one with more stature closer to home is Texas. And if they fire Barnes, they are fools. This year's team is down because of early entries and if the AD there has an ounce of sense he knows it. A school that would fire Barnes after one bad year after the run he has had there doesn't deserve Buzz.
But I will take Buzz at his word. Last spring he expressed his gratitude with MU, why it is such a good fit for him, that he was getting used to the idea of putting down roots for the first time in his adult life, and was happy. And his wife had told him to not mess with happy. I believe him.
One potential problem I see, however, is if he and the new AD have incompatible personalities. That could upset the whole applecart. I have not heard any rumors of such, but life happens sometimes. As for conference stability, our president is a Georgetown alum and our AD is a ND alum. They understand the relationship between school and big time athletics. If MU stays close to those two schools, the conference challenge will work itself out.
Did he turn it down? Was it offered? These are the games that fan bases and ADs play to show they were not shown up and all that.
I do not think Oklahoma or A&M resonate anywhere near the radar as Texas. Especially true when you calculate that Oklahoma was in NCAA hot water which was not going to help their situation.
I don't think Barnes will be fired either, though his seat could get warmer if they miss. Firing Barnes would be a dumb move in my opinion. If they did, Buzz I'm sure would be on their list because he is a good coach and is from the area. No reason why he wouldn't be on a list. That is a complement to Buzz one would think. Yes?
Quote from: Hoopaloop on February 14, 2012, 06:59:09 PM
I'll fix it for you.
Marquette fanboy who remembers the great attention and turnout MU got for Gameday. Yes, I thought we had it more than once. Unfortunately we haven't had it since.
What I've seen at the games I attend in Milwaukee is a student section that isn't quite as engaged as they were before. I don't know why that is. Is it because Crean used to hype up the students, slapping palms or buying them pizza or hot chocolate and donuts while they were in line? I'm sure Buzz does the Pizza and chocolate stuff. Whatever it is, I wish our students were a bit more into Buzz in terms of showing up and cheering. This is not a bad thing to desire, is it?
Buzz is a better coach and a better person. Crean is a better marketer. I prefer the former, but to each his own.
Quote from: Hoopaloop on February 14, 2012, 03:00:52 PM
I don't think any of us know, but here are some that one could through out there as reasonable.
I think I just found the smoking gun
Quote from: Lennys Tap on February 14, 2012, 03:14:05 PM
A chance to be on ESPN Gameday regularly - like MU was when TC was here - oh, sorry, that didn't happen - just some Crean fanboy's wild imagination at work.
Excellent.
Quote from: 2002MUalum on February 14, 2012, 01:13:27 PM
I think you're exaggerating.
I don't think Buzz is shopping around, but to assume that he wouldn't consider to a top job (if available) is naive.
Most (Crean, Matta, S. Miller,etc.) leave. Some (Mark Few, Izzo, Coach K) don't. We'll all know when it does or doesn't happen.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on February 14, 2012, 10:46:48 PM
Buzz is a better coach and a better person. Crean is a better marketer. I prefer the latter, but to each his own.
The former or the latter? I thought, by your posts, it would be the former.
For all the crap that is given to Crean around here, I don't think any one blames him for taking the Indiana job. He's a Big Ten guy...and was being handed the keys to one of the iconic Big Ten basketball programs...and he put in his time at MU.
I don't think Buzz will leave for awhile...I don't care if it is Texas or anyone. He has business to finish here. He has pledged to be the coach here for awhile. If he leaves after four seasons, I would be infinitely more disappointed in him than I was in Crean.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on February 14, 2012, 11:23:19 PM
Most (Crean, Matta, S. Miller,etc.) leave. Some (Mark Few, Izzo, Coach K) don't. We'll all know when it does or doesn't happen.
Agree. We won't know until we know. ;)
My point isn't to pick on Buzz specifically, I'm simply saying:
Fans of (insert school) shouldn't be surprised if (insert coach) is at least interested when (insert elite school) calls.
I have no idea if Buzz would actually leave, but that's actually the point. We don't know.
Quote from: MUMac on February 15, 2012, 07:45:31 AM
The former or the latter? I thought, by your posts, it would be the former.
Correct. Edited to correct my mistake.
Quote from: 2002MUalum on February 15, 2012, 08:37:25 AM
Agree. We won't know until we know. ;)
My point isn't to pick on Buzz specifically, I'm simply saying:
Fans of (insert school) shouldn't be surprised if (insert coach) is at least interested when (insert elite school) calls.
I have no idea if Buzz would actually leave, but that's actually the point. We don't know.
My point is this: some here argue that Buzz HAS to leave if "a better situation is available for him and his family"- more money, closer to home, more prestigious school/conference, better recruiting base, etc., because that's what THEY would do. Those are certainly valid reasons to move on, but the coaching scene is littered with guys who "messed with happy", took a "better" job and came to regret it. Everything Buzz says indicates he "gets" it. Doesn't mean he stays, but it does mean (to me, anyway) that there's a chance he could be one of the rare ones who does.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on February 15, 2012, 09:24:18 AMMy point is this: some here argue that Buzz HAS to leave if "a better situation is available for him and his family"- more money, closer to home, more prestigious school/conference, better recruiting base, etc., because that's what THEY would do. Those are certainly valid reasons to move on, but the coaching scene is littered with guys who "messed with happy", took a "better" job and came to regret it. Everything Buzz says indicates he "gets" it. Doesn't mean he stays, but it does mean (to me, anyway) that there's a chance he could be one of the rare ones who does.
I think the big difference with Buzz is that we aren't talking about a mid-major. Marquette is in a high-major league, and even before they were, they were still paying their coach at a high-major level. Could he make more at Kentucky, Duke, or Kansas? Sure, he could maybe even double his salary. But the difference between the $2.5M that he gets here and the $4-5M he might get at those schools isn't nearly as glaring as if he were a Shaka Smart-type that makes $1.2M.
The next question is the recruiting issue. So far, Buzz has done a better job than his predecessor of getting high-major talents on an annual basis. The top-100 big man, however, still eludes him. I don't think he'll make the jump on that basis this year, but looking at a school like Texas that has Cam Ridley on the way in, it is a lure. However, if he can keep turning 1-3 star players like Otule and Gardner into legitimate Big East starters and have a line of potential replacements like Durley behind them, that may not be such a pressing issue.
I think after money and recruiting, the next obvious question is winning. Buzz has won at least 20 games in all 4 years at Marquette, but can he win a title here, or reach a Final Four? I think we'd all say yes, even if we aren't quite there yet. While many look at a Final Four berth as a potential launching point to head elsewhere, I think for Buzz it would have the opposite effect and solidify his desire to stay here.
At the end of the day, it all comes down to Buzz. He's said all the right things, and considering the eccentricities that play so perfectly here (no surprise, after Al) I have to imagine it'd take a situation that he
knew would be perfect to get him to upset his personal applecart.
But that's the rub...you never know, do you? Sometimes the guy that jumps from the high-major job to the elite job is a Bill Self, sometimes he's a Matt Doherty. And until you arrive, you never really know. Is it worth risking a near-perfect situation? Only Buzz knows, but I fully believe he'll be here as long as we'll have him. And I'd have no problem with Buzz being coach at Marquette for the next 30 years...and that's only if he wants to retire at a young age ;D
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on February 15, 2012, 08:08:33 AM
For all the crap that is given to Crean around here, I don't think any one blames him for taking the Indiana job. He's a Big Ten guy...and was being handed the keys to one of the iconic Big Ten basketball programs...and he put in his time at MU.
I don't think Buzz will leave for awhile...I don't care if it is Texas or anyone. He has business to finish here. He has pledged to be the coach here for awhile. If he leaves after four seasons, I would be infinitely more disappointed in him than I was in Crean.
This is the real key here... for the benefit of the millennials who weren't around to experience society before character and loyalty were curb stomped by greed and vanity, there are indeed millions of people in this world who genuinely will pass up a new - and perhaps better - opportunity to finish what they started or repay a debt of gratitude. Sure, the D-I coaching profession doesn't exactly seem chock full with this type of person, but can we all not at least agree that there is something different about Buzz? I don't think Buzz is the guy who is going to screw over MU. Bear in mind, MU gave him a chance that very few others would; hopefully that means something to Buzz and even more so, hopefully MU continues to take care of him.
Let's put it this way... if all MU is to Buzz is a stepping stone, Rob Jeter might have been head coach at MU right now. Buzz had three southern opportunities staring him in the face last year. What do you think is more likely: that Buzz said, "no thanks, I'm waiting for Barnes to get fired next year" or "no thanks, I'm happy at Marquette"???
Quote from: Lennys Tap on February 15, 2012, 09:24:18 AM
My point is this: [b]some here argue[/b] that Buzz HAS to leave if "a better situation is available for him and his family"- more money, closer to home, more prestigious school/conference, better recruiting base, etc., because that's what THEY would do. Those are certainly valid reasons to move on, but the coaching scene is littered with guys who "messed with happy", took a "better" job and came to regret it. Everything Buzz says indicates he "gets" it. Doesn't mean he stays, but it does mean (to me, anyway) that there's a chance he could be one of the rare ones who does.
Is that in another thread? I don't think anybody here said he HAS to leave, but I might have missed it.
And, I agree with your last sentence, but I'll preface that with a lot of coaches seem to "get it" when they are winning and the fan base is happy. Al is a legend, and he tried to go to the Bucks. It happens. Doesn't make the coach a bad guy.
The longer Buzz is at MU, the better chance he continues to stay.
Quote from: Benny B on February 15, 2012, 10:14:21 AM
This is the real key here... for the benefit of the millennials who weren't around to experience society before character and loyalty were curb stomped by greed and vanity, there are indeed millions of people in this world who genuinely will pass up a new - and perhaps better - opportunity to finish what they started or repay a debt of gratitude. Sure, the D-I coaching profession doesn't exactly seem chock full with this type of person, but can we all not at least agree that there is something different about Buzz? I don't think Buzz is the guy who is going to screw over MU. Bear in mind, MU gave him a chance that very few others would; hopefully that means something to Buzz and even more so, hopefully MU continues to take care of him.
Let's put it this way... if all MU is to Buzz is a stepping stone, Rob Jeter might have been head coach at MU right now. Buzz had three southern opportunities staring him in the face last year. What do you think is more likely: that Buzz said, "no thanks, I'm waiting for Barnes to get fired next year" or "no thanks, I'm happy at Marquette"???
Agree 100%. Back in the day, coaches didn't leave schools for other jobs. Just ask Al. Ask Rick.
Some of you guys are hard to please. God help Buzz Williams if he ever decides to do something else. The backlash will be harsh.
Quote from: Benny B on February 15, 2012, 10:14:21 AM
This is the real key here... for the benefit of the millennials who weren't around to experience society before character and loyalty were curb stomped by greed and vanity, there are indeed millions of people in this world who genuinely will pass up a new - and perhaps better - opportunity to finish what they started or repay a debt of gratitude.
Kudos, Benny. Maybe the most well written (character and loyalty "curbed stomped" by greed and vanity is pure poetry) statement of pure truth ever written on Scoop. Absolutely awesome.
Quote from: Hoopaloop on February 14, 2012, 06:59:09 PM
I'll fix it for you.
Marquette fanboy who remembers the great attention and turnout MU got for Gameday. Yes, I thought we had it more than once. Unfortunately we haven't had it since.
What I've seen at the games I attend in Milwaukee is a student section that isn't quite as engaged as they were before. I don't know why that is. Is it because Crean used to hype up the students, slapping palms or buying them pizza or hot chocolate and donuts while they were in line? I'm sure Buzz does the Pizza and chocolate stuff. Whatever it is, I wish our students were a bit more into Buzz in terms of showing up and cheering. This is not a bad thing to desire, is it?
Lets compare apples to apples here fanboy...u and your mentor Chicos dont like to make judgements on coaches til 5 years.
So lets wait until next year on the "student engagement". Next year we can compare the "student engagement" of compared to the 5th year of Tommy Naismith's tenure. You will remember year 5 when MU stumbled to the NIT and lost at home to Western Michigan while scoring all of 40 points with a roster in constant transition and packed with a bunch of barely D1 players and Mu attendance plummeted!
Then for comparisons sake we can look at "student engagement" in 2013, which will be Buzz's 6th year in the program. Buzz will have a bunch of top flight recruits as upper classmen and prolly a Top 10 team, what might the "student engagement" be like compared to year 6 with douchebag. Do you remember 6 years in? We limped into 19 wins with a pathetically weak schedule and had the lowest attendance in the last 15 years.
Revisionist BS history Purdue boy.
Where is Rick Barnes going?
Quote from: 2002MUalum on February 15, 2012, 10:46:17 AM
Is that in another thread? I don't think anybody here said he HAS to leave, but I might have missed it.
I was sure I read those words but can't find them in this thread. Apologies if I've gone all delusional.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on February 15, 2012, 01:47:34 PM
I was sure I read those words but can't find them in this thread. Apologies if I've gone all delusional.
No worries.
Some interesting viewpoints on this topic. I'm realizing that people are really developing an affinity and emotional relationship with Buzz. That's awesome.
I hope MU keeps winning and I hope Buzz keeps making big $ at MU.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on February 15, 2012, 09:24:18 AM
My point is this: some here argue that Buzz HAS to leave if "a better situation is available for him and his family"- more money, closer to home, more prestigious school/conference, better recruiting base, etc., because that's what THEY would do. Those are certainly valid reasons to move on, but the coaching scene is littered with guys who "messed with happy", took a "better" job and came to regret it. Everything Buzz says indicates he "gets" it. Doesn't mean he stays, but it does mean (to me, anyway) that there's a chance he could be one of the rare ones who does.
Who are these some? Who has said he HAS to leave?
Quote from: Lennys Tap on February 14, 2012, 10:46:48 PM
Buzz is a better coach and a better person. Crean is a better marketer. I prefer the former, but to each his own.
Both are good coaches. I don't pretend to know how either of them are in terms of people, I have not met either of them and if I had it wouldn't be a true sample size. From a distance, Buzz seems to be a much more approachable person with a personality that is more inviting. Personally, my opinion of Buzz is higher than Crean, but I also have fond memories of what MU did in hoops with Wade, the Final Four, the Big East and all the rest.
Back to the discussion, what can MU, or Buzz, or the student body do to get our students more engaged. Somewhere we have dropped off there in my opinion. We are the 12th ranked team in the country, the students need to act like it.
Quote from: Canadian Dimes
Lets compare apples to apples here fanboy...u and your mentor Chicos dont like to make judgements on coaches til 5 years.
So lets wait until next year on the "student engagement". Next year we can compare the "student engagement" of compared to the 5th year of Tommy Naismith's tenure. You will remember year 5 when MU stumbled to the NIT and lost at home to Western Michigan while scoring all of 40 points with a roster in constant transition and packed with a bunch of barely D1 players and Mu attendance plummeted!
Then for comparisons sake we can look at "student engagement" in 2013, which will be Buzz's 6th year in the program. Buzz will have a bunch of top flight recruits as upper classmen and prolly a Top 10 team, what might the "student engagement" be like compared to year 6 with douchebag. Do you remember 6 years in? We limped into 19 wins with a pathetically weak schedule and had the lowest attendance in the last 15 years.
Revisionist BS history Purdue boy.
When have I said five years is the timeline to judge a coach? It's a reasonable number and a decent barometer but do not recall that being what I said. Chico said it often, but don't lump me in with that concrete timeline.
Why would you compare student participation from a year to year perspective? We are the 12th ranked team in the country, shouldn't you be comparing student engagement with other years when we were similarly ranked?
I do remember 6 years in, we weren't very good and injured. I also remember 4 years in and a Final Four. Does that mean if we don't go to the Final Four this year that's a knock against Buzz? That is not my point of view, but you seem to have so much anger built in that any success the previous guy had seems to get you all wound up.
A top ten team next year? That would be freaking awesome. We're at #12 right now, I just wish our students got the memo as the BC has been better in the past in terms of home court advantage.
Quote from: Canadian Dimes on February 15, 2012, 11:14:49 AM
Lets compare apples to apples here fanboy...u and your mentor Chicos dont like to make judgements on coaches til 5 years.
So lets wait until next year on the "student engagement". Next year we can compare the "student engagement" of compared to the 5th year of Tommy Naismith's tenure. You will remember year 5 when MU stumbled to the NIT and lost at home to Western Michigan while scoring all of 40 points with a roster in constant transition and packed with a bunch of barely D1 players and Mu attendance plummeted!
Then for comparisons sake we can look at "student engagement" in 2013, which will be Buzz's 6th year in the program. Buzz will have a bunch of top flight recruits as upper classmen and prolly a Top 10 team, what might the "student engagement" be like compared to year 6 with douchebag. Do you remember 6 years in? We limped into 19 wins with a pathetically weak schedule and had the lowest attendance in the last 15 years.
Revisionist BS history Purdue boy.
If we compare attendance in Big East games across the seven seasons we'e been members, I think there's a legitimate point that we've lost some engagement this season.
Our previous low-water mark for Big East attendance was in 2006, when we drew an average of 16,517.
This year, through 7 games, we're averaging 15,780. Even if we draw 19,000 to both Rutgers and Georgetown, we will wind up with an average of only 16,495, making 2012 the lowest average Big East attendance since joining the league.
We're down several hundred fans/game over LAST year--and we're a much better team this year.
I think the main reason for the down student turnout and excitement may be more about the schedule and level of the Big East. Cincy was our first Saturday Big East home game while the students were here. Pitt was the Saturday before classes started, but we also had MLK Day off. I think we would all agree that student turnout for the Cincy game was good, and expect the Georgetown game to be well-attended.
Also, we've faced the top teams in the league on the road. Cuse isn't coming here, Georgetown is later, Notre Dame on the road. We had Louisville for MLK Day at home but I remember seeing the residence halls packed with students still unpacking, and I think the attendance was pretty good from a student standpoint.
Couple the kind of rough schedule with a down Big East, and it means less excitement. During the UConn game in Buzz's first year, the place was electric. However, it helped that UConn was top 5 (2 I think). The Big East then compared to now is at two very different levels. I think that brings about some of the lack of perceived excitement.
BTW, I am sure Orangeblood is quite amused that he started this thread with a question that had a one-sentence answer (if that) and wound up with 5 pages of MU fans bickering with each other.
Quote from: cheebs09 on February 15, 2012, 03:39:33 PM
I think the main reason for the down student turnout and excitement may be more about the schedule and level of the Big East. Cincy was our first Saturday Big East home game while the students were here. Pitt was the Saturday before classes started, but we also had MLK Day off. I think we would all agree that student turnout for the Cincy game was good, and expect the Georgetown game to be well-attended.
Also, we've faced the top teams in the league on the road. Cuse isn't coming here, Georgetown is later, Notre Dame on the road. We had Louisville for MLK Day at home but I remember seeing the residence halls packed with students still unpacking, and I think the attendance was pretty good from a student standpoint.
Couple the kind of rough schedule with a down Big East, and it means less excitement. During the UConn game in Buzz's first year, the place was electric. However, it helped that UConn was top 5 (2 I think). The Big East then compared to now is at two very different levels. I think that brings about some of the lack of perceived excitement.
The attendance number is entirely skewed this year due to the fact that we are not playing UCONN, Syracuse, ND, or wisconsin at home. Additionally, The only historically top rung Big east teams we have played at home are Nova, Pitt and Louisville. Louisville and Nova we played at mid day on difficult attendance days and Nova and Pitt are way down.
Now someone can go make the argument that people should be there to see MU. They are! MU gets at least 13,000-14,000 in the seats reagrdless of whom they play, which is higher than about 300 other D1 programs. Above that the day, time and opponent are huge factors.