MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => Topic started by: LAZER on May 26, 2011, 11:33:29 AM
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http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/otl/news/story?id=6587668
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I was just checking to see if this was already up, definitely an interesting article and worth the read. Very interesting stuff on Crean's hiring of the coach's son, and the commitments of 8 players from the Indiana Elite program soon after.
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In before the inevitable lock...
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The dude is so phony, he probably believes his verbal sewerage.
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Squirmy.
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Wow - found this on espn front page http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/otl/news/story?id=6587668 (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/otl/news/story?id=6587668)
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Mods moved this conversation. Good article though.
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=27090.0 (http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=27090.0)
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I'd be curious to see what the IU forums are saying about this.
But not curious enough to find a link for myself. ;D
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could not win the right way, went the way of memphis, kentucky....
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Hmm...smoke there is fire...look forward to the resident Crean defender and Buzz basher/crucifier response to this article, particularily this:
"After Drew Adams, the son of Mark Adams, was promoted to director of operations/video coordinator in April 2010, Crean signed or picked up commitments from eight players with ties to A-HOPE and/or the Indiana Elite program. According to summer team forms on file with the NCAA, the younger Adams previously coached three of the players with Indiana Elite, and his father acknowledges that two -- 2012 commits Perea and 7-foot-1-inch Peter Jurkin, part of a class ranked No. 1 in the country by ESPN -- lived at his Bloomington, Ind., house last summer while he was their coach at Indiana Elite. Drew Adams' original hiring in September 2009 as IU's coordinator of basketball systems came just before an NCAA rule change that would have prohibited IU from signing players he previously was associated with for two years."
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C'mon guys, Chicos has already said it's no big deal, it's just some video coordinator. Why in the world is ESPN wasting their time on this non-story? They should be ashamed!
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If I was a fan of the program and coach mentioned in this story, I would definitely be squirming.
It's almost as bad as recruiting the junior college ranks. It's a good thing for that school that this story only appeared on the front page of some low-brow internet site and not in a few very well-known blogs and papers like the Newbill situation.
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If TC isn't careful, he might have to vacate all of his B
101112 championships.
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Near the end:
"With all of the connections and movement, if folks fancy Indiana University silly enough to cheat these days, they're crazy. This opinion echoes through a phone line from coach Tom Crean, who three years ago inherited a Hoosiers program on probation after recruiting violations under former coach Kelvin Sampson. Crean paints an image of an IU compliance department that is on his tail 24 hours a day, seven days a week. "Transparency" is a buzzword he utters with regularity, saying, "I never understood what that word meant 'til I got to Indiana.""
I guess Marquette isn't transparent.
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It seems like everything that Crean is doing is legal, but this type of press can't make IU happy, right or wrong. I guess their program will be looked at with suspicion going forward regardless of the coach.
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ESPN report. Was this ever an issue at Marquette?
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/otl/news/story?id=6587668
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troll
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Thanks for the support. The point was raised whether this was ever an issue at Marq.
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ESPN report. Was this ever an issue at Marquette?
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/otl/news/story?id=6587668
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=27090.0
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Everything he did at MU was an issue one way or another.
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The short answer is no. There are a number of longer answers that will inevitably lead to this thread being locked.
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That AAU coach even looks like Crean. Scumbags
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That AAU coach even looks like Crean. Scumbags
He has a Oompa-Loompa-esque tan?
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could not win the right way, went the way of memphis, kentucky....
Hahahahaahahaahahahahahahaahahahahahaahhahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.
Not even close.
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Getting to the end, this really made me feel like Crean is up to his neck in it.
Still, Crean backtracks on the notion that IU has enjoyed a significant advantage because Adams had coached players in summer ball whom the Hoosiers were recruiting, including three from Indiana Elite who later signed or committed. Crean plays down the familiarity angle, suggesting, "When long-term memory for the average human being scientifically shows to be three days, we can't bank on that."
Really? That's going to be the defense? We can't trust the familiarity these players had with Drew Adams because they won't remember the relationships they built because people's long-term memory doesn't last more than three days? What the hell is that, the Memento defense?
It seems like Crean has Indiana pointed back in the right direction, but I think the number that stood out for me was the "eight recruits". I remember seeing that Crean has something like 7-8 top 50 recruits coming in over the next four years. So basically, the entire basis of his successful recruiting is this one AAU program. Well, that and Cody Zeller, who I'm pretty sure isn't from the Sudan. This really looks like Crean cut a deal with the devil to get IU back on top. I'm disappointed. I hope that this isn't as bad as it looks for Crean, because while I didn't like the way he left Marquette, I also didn't want to hear about one of our former coaches being involved in something that seems this dirty.
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Hahahahaahahaahahahahahahaahahahahahaahhahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.
Not even close.
Good point - Josh Pastner at Memphis shot down the idea of hiring Drew Adams to his staff, as he didn't feel he was qualified to land such a position at a high D-1 school. For those who dog Calipari for his tight relationship with World Wide Wes - not sure I understand why you wouldn't think Crean is treading in the same territory with mentions to Sonny Vacarro/Addidas - a known Power Broker in college hoops, much like World Wide Wes for Calipari.
For as up in arms as you got over the Newbill situation, you sure seem to be giving Crean a pass here. Why?
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It seems like Crean has Indiana pointed back in the right direction, but I think the number that stood out for me was the "eight recruits". I remember seeing that Crean has something like 7-8 top 50 recruits coming in over the next four years. So basically, the entire basis of his successful recruiting is this one AAU program. Well, that and Cody Zeller, who I'm pretty sure isn't from the Sudan. This really looks like Crean cut a deal with the devil to get IU back on top. I'm disappointed. I hope that this isn't as bad as it looks for Crean,
Umm, actually Cody Zeller and another traditional (Etherington) from their incoming class also ran with Indiana Elite.
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New Mexico is going to be a POWERHOUSE now that they got this video coordinator going down there...An Absolute POWERHOUSE. Put your money in Vegas on Steve Alford and New Mexico to win it all....they got the video coordinator.
LOL
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For a complete list of Indiana Elite players and teams that players have gone (list below), as I've said for over two years now, it's a joke to say they are all going to IU. Not the case and not even the case in the last few years until this past year.
IU Elite has been around since the 1970's and always been a place where IU (and MANY) other schools have received talent.
One of the reasons IU had fallen on hard times is the Indiana Elite kids were not going to IU in droves like they used to. Now Crean has basically convinced these kids to stay home, but year in and year out Indiana Elite was always cranking out massive amounts of DI players....the difference is that most of the 2012 class decided to stay in Bloomington and play.
I believe ESPN ranked IU #1 recruiting class in the nation a few days ago. Not surprising, they are absolutely LOADED as I've also said for quite a while now.
2008
-Ohio State – Walter Offutt
-Tennessee – Emannuel Negedu
-Kentucky – DeAndre Liggins
-North Carolina – Tyler Zeller
-Purdue – Lewis Jackson
-Michigan – Zack Novak and Stuart Douglass
-Indiana – Matt Roth (scholarship) Kory Barnett and Daniel Moore (walkons)
-Valparaiso – Logan Jones
-Bellarmine – Brayden Hobbs
-Western Michigan – Mohammed Conteh
-UW Green Bay – Brent Eaton
-Butler – Chase Stigall and Garrett Butcher
2009
-Duke – Mason Plumlee
-Indiana – Jordan Hulls and Bobby Coppabianco
-Purdue – Patrick Bade and D.J. Byrd
-Louisville – Stephen Van Treese
-Bradley – Jordan Prosser
-Evansville – Colt Ryan
-Valparaiso – Matt Kinney
2010
-Purdue – Terone Johnson
-Butler – Erik Fromm
-UW Green Bay – Daniel Turner
2011
-Duke – Marshall Plumlee
-Indiana – Austin Etherington and Cody Zeller
-New Mexico- Chier Ajou
-Cincinnati – Ge’Lawn Guyn & Jeremiah Davis
-Belmont – Spencer Turner
2012
-Indiana – Yogi Ferrell, Hanner Perea, Peter Jurkin, Ron Patterson, Jeremy Hollowell
-Michigan State – Kenny Kaminski
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When a player says this about the corporation, you know something bad is going on:
""I mean, Duany is my guardian, but Duany is never around," Nyarsuk says. "Since he got us here, he goes back to Sudan to find other players. I don't know what he is doing. When Duany went back to Sudan, he left us with Mark Adams. Mark Adams is supposed to take care of us. Mark Adams is the one that is supposed to do everything."
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It's kind of interesting where some people here went with this ESPN TC article.
I suppose some people could make similar leaps about this statement from MPD today on our situation. "There is no evidence that the coaching staff intended to interfere with the investigation," Chisholm said. "It highlights, however, that when proper procedure is not followed, it prevents an untainted interview with any suspect and provides an opportunity for the individuals allegedly involved as suspects or witnesses to compare recollections regarding the circumstances of the alleged conduct."
Even though the ESPN article says no evidence of wrongdoing by IU, people believe it here anyway. And even though the MJS article similarly says no evidence of wrongdoing by Buzz and staff...wait...no one went there.
Fans are great, aren't they. They believe what they want to believe.
Incidentally, for the dolts that think Crean is on the hot seat....Glass says not even close....more importantly...the key donors say the same thing. Not surprising, been hearing that through my Big Ten, IU, ESPN, and Fox sports contacts for 24 months.
http://www.wndu.com/localnews/headlines/Crean_doesnt_see_next_season_as_make_or_break_year_122615294.html
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For a complete list of Indiana Elite players and teams that players have gone (list below), as I've said for over two years now, it's a joke to say they are all going to IU. Not the case and not even the case in the last few years until this past year.
How about this, then ... in the three years before Crean hired Drew Adams, IU signed three Indiana Elite players.
In the 12 months since Crean hired Drew Adams, they've signed eight.
Mere coincidence, I'm sure. Nothing to see here. Please move along.
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How about this, then ... in the three years before Crean hired Drew Adams, IU signed three Indiana Elite players.
In the 12 months since Crean hired Drew Adams, they've signed eight.
Mere coincidence, I'm sure. Nothing to see here. Please move along.
LOL....right, because being on NCAA probation in 2008 apparently wasn't like flies to honey for recruits...is that what you expected...LOL. Of course they didn't sign a bunch of good kids in 2008, they were on probation for Christ sake.
Furthermore, now that they are beyond that you apparently think it's implausible for guys to want to play for THE state school, a guy who landed D-Wade (who just smashed your Bulls again), a guy who landed Wes Matthews (NBA), Indiana's Dominic James, Steve Novak (NBA), Travis Diener (NBA and former Indiana Pacer), Lazar Hayward (NBA), etc, etc wouldn't be the reason to go to IU....no, it was because of the video coordinator.
Well, we'll test your theory to the core then won't we Pakuni. The video coordinator is now at New Mexico so IU's recruiting should fall off the earth and New Mexico should get all that talent...I mean, that's what you are saying.
You are funny. Your logic is incredible. Truly. Pat yourself on the back
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LOL....right, because being on NCAA probation in 2008 apparently wasn't like flies to honey for recruits...is that what you expected...LOL. Of course they didn't sign a bunch of good kids in 2008, they were on probation for Christ sake.
Furthermore, now that they are beyond that you apparently think it's implausible for guys to want to play for THE state school, a guy who landed D-Wade (who just smashed your Bulls again), a guy who landed Wes Matthews (NBA), Indiana's Dominic James, Steve Novak (NBA), Travis Diener (NBA and former Indiana Pacer), Lazar Hayward (NBA), etc, etc wouldn't be the reason to go to IU....no, it was because of the video coordinator.
Well, we'll test your theory to the core then won't we Pakuni. The video coordinator is now at New Mexico so IU's recruiting should fall off the earth and New Mexico should get all that talent...I mean, that's what you are saying.
You are funny. Your logic is incredible. Truly. Pat yourself on the back
I want the Video Coordinator job.
http://www.mgsportsmanagement.com/MattRyanList.html
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By the way, the APR scores just came out. Indiana got a perfect 1000. This is another reason why he was hired, to clean up the absolute academic cluster screw that was left him. IU fans very happy and proud of that accomplishment....I know that doesn't resonate with most of you here, but it's a big deal to IU fans.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-ap-ncaa-aprreport-india,0,3185208.story
We did pretty well ourselves...a solid 980 at Marquette...good for 6th in the Big East...well done Warriors
http://www.rumbleinthegarden.com/2011/5/24/2188148/big-east-ncaa-apr-multiyear-scores-mens-basketball
(http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/620751/bigeastapr_medium.jpg)
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LOL....right, because being on NCAA probation in 2008 apparently wasn't like flies to honey for recruits...is that what you expected...LOL. Of course they didn't sign a bunch of good kids in 2008, they were on probation for Christ sake.
Furthermore, now that they are beyond that you apparently think it's implausible for guys to want to play for THE state school, a guy who landed D-Wade (who just smashed your Bulls again), a guy who landed Wes Matthews (NBA), Indiana's Dominic James, Steve Novak (NBA), Travis Diener (NBA and former Indiana Pacer), Lazar Hayward (NBA), etc, etc wouldn't be the reason to go to IU....no, it was because of the video coordinator.
Well, we'll test your theory to the core then won't we Pakuni. The video coordinator is now at New Mexico so IU's recruiting should fall off the earth and New Mexico should get all that talent...I mean, that's what you are saying.
You are funny. Your logic is incredible. Truly. Pat yourself on the back
Sure, Chico's ... I'm on record as stating that New Mexico will get a top 5 recruiting class. Whatever you need to say to sidestep the real issues here, feel free. Whatever it takes to defend your boy, I guess.
And of course a kid like Cody Zeller and Yogi Ferrell would chose the guy who coached Lazar Hayward and Dominic James over no-name coaches like Roy Williams, John Calipari and Thad Matta. What kid doesn't dream about that? Those other bums clearly don't have Tom Crean's record of accomplishment or history of sending players to the pros. You are funny. Your logic is incredible. Truly. Pat yourself on the back.
One of the many ironies here is that you rant and rave about MU being mentioned on minor-league blogs like "oversigning.com," but brush aside a major ESPN investigation when it's critical of your boy.
Anyhow, your childish snide remarks aside, don't you think it's odd Drew Adams would up and leave a job at his state school - the one every kid apparently dreams of being a part of - to make a lateral move at a lesser program like New Mexico? And just as ESPN is wrapping up a big investigation about his father's activities and his part in them? One that might bring a lot of heat on his current employer?
Or is it just another one of those coincidences?
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Sure, Chico's ... I'm on record as stating that New Mexico will get a top 5 recruiting class. Whatever you need to say to sidestep the real issues here, feel free. Whatever it takes to defend your boy, I guess.
And of course a kid like Cody Zeller and Yogi Ferrell would chose the guy who coached Lazar Hayward and Dominic James over no-name coaches like Roy Williams, John Calipari and Thad Matta. What kid doesn't dream about that? Those other bums clearly don't have Tom Crean's record of accomplishment or history of sending players to the pros. You are funny. Your logic is incredible. Truly. Pat yourself on the back.
One of the many ironies here is that you rant and rave about MU being mentioned on minor-league blogs like "oversigning.com," but brush aside a major ESPN investigation when it's critical of your boy.
Anyhow, your childish snide remarks aside, don't you think it's odd Drew Adams would up and leave a job at his state school - the one every kid apparently dreams of being a part of - to make a lateral move at a lesser program like New Mexico? And just as ESPN is wrapping up a big investigation about his father's activities and his part in them? One that might bring a lot of heat on his current employer?
Or is it just another one of those coincidences?
Look, you were the one that went down the path of idiocy. Indiana kids often dream of playing for Indiana. I'm sorry this is hard for you to grasp. Does it always happen? NO. When they suck does it happen? NO. When they get one or two kids on board and the tidal wave of recruits starts...yeah, it can happen.
Excuse me...."minor blogs" like oversigning.com yet you ignore those very same stories I posted on Yahoo Sports, etc, etc...are those "minor league" or you are you just being selective as usual? Is it MINOR LEAGUES when HBO was going to do a story on the Newbill situation...or is HBO just minor leagues? The only reason it fell through was Newbill deciding at the end not to go through with it. Please, stop with your double standards.
Why did this Adams kid leave? I have no idea. Now, you apparently think it's because Crean and IU are cheating...interesting. Based on what exactly? It amazes me that a coach that can land a D Wade, Lazar Hayward, Wes Matthews, Steve Novak, Jerel McNeal, Dominic James, etc, etc at tiny little MU would not be able to land great basketball players at one of the top 5 or 6 programs of all time....REALLY? I mean...REALLY? Instead it's because of the video coordinator. Jesus...listen to yourself. You totally throw out who he was able to get at MU and pretend as if it wouldn't be easier to get as good or better talent that IU. You're kidding yourself.
Did he ever cheat at Marquette to get those kids? Was the Adams kid on the MU staff as the video coordinator? How on earth did Crean ever land those kids I listed above? Maybe Crean did cheat, the backhanded remark about compliance at IU being much more restrictive than anywhere he had ever been previously says something potentially about lax standards (does he mean MSU, MU, Pitt, W. Kentucky?) at previous stops but doesn't mention which ones. Can only speculate.
I told you, despite what you and House want to admit, I'm way more connected to IU then you want to give credit for which is fine. I don't particularly give a rip, but as I told you two years ago and again last year, Glass and the administration are 100% behind him. He's got the academics in order, he cleaned out all the problem idiots (I mean IDIOTS....the tokers, those that didn't study, those that were doing all kinds of stuff that would make even UCONN fans blush), he is landing kids in the state after working their tails off for 3 years to finally get that opportunity. You obviously do NOT know the Zellers or you wouldn't make that stupid statement about why Cody chose IU over UNC. Etc, etc. Indiana kids, many of them, WANT to stay in Indiana and not rush off to play at those other schools. Unless you are from Indiana or went there, you simply do not understand. There are many exceptions, especially when they aren't good, but when they have a chance to be good or are playing well, the draw to stay home is heavy. Way more than 99% of the country.
You simply don't know the information but you keep running out there like you do. Please put on your tin foil hat next time. Meanwhile, do you think MU basketball got in the way of any investigation of the Milwaukee Police Department? Since you are wearing your guilty purse I'd be curious when you take it off. (incidentally, I have no reason to believe MU athletics intervened in any investigation, but I have to guess based on your wild ride here that if that same incident happened in Bloomington, IN that you'd have the noose already ready to put around someone's head)
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Is it ok to do things that could be defined as squirmy as long as supports Indiana kids dreams? What about Sudanese kids dreams?
My guess is that no NCAA rules were broken and worse things happen in bball today, but it is not a good thing to be on ESPN for potentially rewarding an AAU coach/handler. I am not sure how you could argue otherwise.
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I don't like TC, therefore, this article confirms that he is shady.
I like Buzz, therefore, the sexual assault stuff is just a bump in the road.
Chico's is a douche.
This about covers it, right? Do I even need to read the rest of the posts?
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First, the situation at Marquette has nothing to do with the article on Indiana and Indiana Elite. And while ESPN doesn't come out and say there is a direct connection, there's a reason. They don't have the evidence and don't want to be sued for libel. However, anyone who doesn't connect the dots that ESPN is inferring that this is a shady connection is blind.
I'm not saying Crean can't recruit. I'm not saying he hasn't done a good job to get their academics and talent in order. But this article certainly raises some legitimate questions about the funnel of talent now going to Indiana. Maybe these kids are all making the decision on their own, but if you believe some of the kids that have gotten out, it doesn't look that way. That's all they're trying to say is that there is smoke, and sometimes, where there's smoke, there's fire.
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I'm not buying it as dirty. When he hired him, it wasn't illegal for Crean to hire that kid. The rule was changed shortly thereafter. It isn't illegal for these AAU kids to attend open gyms at IU. A hell of an advantage, to be sure, but not illegal. Crean knows a local AAU coach. Duh. Buzz knows lots of juco coaches in Texas. Coaches are SUPPOSED to know AAU, HS, and juco coaches. And those relationships matter. IIRC, there was a belief that Crean, while at MU, had somehow become estranged with WI HS coaches and that is why all of the bigs kept going to UW. We somehow ended up with Novak, Matthews, Diener, and Christopherson, but I seem to remember that.
I think Crean is working his chicos off and his using the home court advantage of the quality of basketball in the state of Indiana to put together some nice classes. Getting the best in-state talent from Indiana will generally keep you competitive in the B1?. What remains to be seen is whether he can coach them. And he is going to get a few years to try.
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Look ....
Thanks for addressing exactly none of the questions posed by myself or the ESPN story.
Obfuscate all you wish (HBO? Nooses? Milwaukee Police? Cheating?), but one would have to be exceedingly naive or willfully ignorant to not to think something is fishy and that the timing of IU's sudden success with players from that AAU program is entirely unrelated to the hiring of the program head's son to a job for which he probably wasn't qualified.
Clearly ESPN, after a five-month investigation, doesn't think it's a coincidence. Neither do the kids who've played for Mark Adams. Maybe it's because they don't have your connections.
Nobody has said Tom Crean can't recruit. But his sudden success with one particular program after hiring the son of its operator is a little too convenient to ignore. Is it cheating? No, at least not then it wasn't. But it is shady. You've certainly squirmed over much less and I find it hard to believe you'd defend any other coach under these circumstances.
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If this guy, as a trusted coach for these kids, when asked the question "Coach, I've got offers from A,B, C, D, and Indiana, what do you think?", answers, "well, I really like the direction Crean is taking IU, your family would get to watch you, etc."....it isn't cheating.
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If this guy, as a trusted coach for these kids, when asked the question "Coach, I've got offers from A,B, C, D, and Indiana, what do you think?", answers, "well, I really like the direction Crean is taking IU, your family would get to watch you, etc."....it isn't cheating.
No.
But now let's fill in some other facts.
Let's say the trusted coach isn't just answering questions, let's say he's steering kids toward certain programs.
Let's say he starts pushing one program after that program's head coach gives his kid a coveted job for which he's arguably not qualified.
Let's say he cuts off support for kids who don't go to the programs he pushes.
Let's say he goes as far as to suggest he ought to adopt a kid to have more influence over his decisions.
Well, that isn't cheating, but it sure the heck smells.
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What seems shady in my mind is the Indiana Elite program. How much does this guy make to be able to throw over 6 figures into the program over the years for all the travel expenses, etc. In the article he's adamant that the money has come from him, and relatives. But bringing kids over from Africa, sponsoring them, feeding and finding housing for them isn't cheap - and is very time consuming.
Maybe this guy has the perfect job where he doesn't need to work 40 hours a week, and has the vacation time to be at these AAU events, pay for all that travel, food.
Edit: And Crean better hope to hell he doesn't get on this guys bad side, as it's pretty obvious that would cost him.
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I don't like TC, therefore, this article confirms that he is shady.
I like Buzz, therefore, the sexual assault stuff is just a bump in the road.
Chico's is a douche.
This about covers it, right? Do I even need to read the rest of the posts?
2002 for the win
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An Indiana Elite founder is accused by multiple sources of having raised the possibility of adopting former Indiana Elite player DeAndre Liggins, without his mother's permission, to influence his college selection.
SJS has advocated this for years!!
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I don't like TC, therefore, this article confirms that he is shady.
I like Buzz, therefore, the sexual assault stuff is just a bump in the road.
Chico's is a douche.
This about covers it, right? Do I even need to read the rest of the posts?
Or the converse.
I like Crean and finding absolutely nothing even remotely troubling (squirmy) in ESPN's article.
I hate Buzz and believe every "squirmy" rumor that I hear or make up about him.
Chicos is a douche.
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IU Blog response:
http://www.insidethehall.com/2011/05/26/a-deeper-look-at-espns-a-hope-investigation/#more-12707
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I have little doubt that Indiana stopped short of doing anything illegal here. I have even less doubt that they hired Adam's kid and took the other guy's kid as a preferred walkon as part of a wink/wink, nod/nod deal. I have absolutely NO DOUBT that if Buzz engaged in technically legal conduct that was subsequently deemed smarmy enough to cause the NCAA to write a statute banning it, Chicos would be all over him. With Buzz, any rumor or innuendo that can cause the slightest negative perception is squirm-worthy. Yet this story and (at the very least) the perceptions it creates doesn't cause even a blip on his squim-o-meter. Total, utter, unabashed hypocrisy.
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I have little doubt that Indiana stopped short of doing anything illegal here. I have even less doubt that they hired Adam's kid and took the other guy's kid as a preferred walkon as part of a wink/wink, nod/nod deal. I have absolutely NO DOUBT that if Buzz engaged in technically legal conduct that was subsequently deemed smarmy enough to cause the NCAA to write a statute banning it, Chicos would be all over him. With Buzz, any rumor or innuendo that can cause the slightest negative perception is squirm-worthy. Yet this story and (at the very least) the perceptions it creates doesn't cause even a blip on his squim-o-meter. Total, utter, unabashed hypocrisy.
If ESPN ran this story about Marquette, Chicos would probably need another "time out" and he'd probably throw in reference to our players being "dogs."
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I have little doubt that Indiana stopped short of doing anything illegal here. I have even less doubt that they hired Adam's kid and took the other guy's kid as a preferred walkon as part of a wink/wink, nod/nod deal. I have absolutely NO DOUBT that if Buzz engaged in technically legal conduct that was subsequently deemed smarmy enough to cause the NCAA to write a statute banning it, Chicos would be all over him. With Buzz, any rumor or innuendo that can cause the slightest negative perception is squirm-worthy. Yet this story and (at the very least) the perceptions it creates doesn't cause even a blip on his squim-o-meter. Total, utter, unabashed hypocrisy.
Now c'mon Lenny. Chicos only calls it how he sees it. Unless its IU.
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I don't think that Crean is breaking any rules. The scrutiny for the IU program right now is just too intense to be cheating. However, I agree that CBB and M84 would be screaming to high heavens if the same thing was written about a Milwaukee area AAU program that had a large number of kids going to MU. CBB would be squirming and saying I told you so and insinuating there was worse to come and M84 would be writing 500 word rebuttals about a phrase in somebody's post defending Buzz. Ask yourselves, CBB and M84, if the names and locations were changed, would you be as vociferous in your defense (Chico) or as silent (M84)? We all know the answers. Characters revealed.
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(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Aimm0Lb2vx4/TSwiB42uIEI/AAAAAAAABqc/H3Wzj2stCiY/s1600/BC%2BNolte%2BShaq.jpg)
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The Big Lead has picked it up now. Seems to be gaining steam, though they claim everything is technically legal.
http://thebiglead.com/index.php/2011/05/27/i-wonder-if-brad-stevens-is-monitoring-this-tom-crean-aau-mess-update/
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Thanks for addressing exactly none of the questions posed by myself or the ESPN story.
Obfuscate all you wish (HBO? Nooses? Milwaukee Police? Cheating?), but one would have to be exceedingly naive or willfully ignorant to not to think something is fishy and that the timing of IU's sudden success with players from that AAU program is entirely unrelated to the hiring of the program head's son to a job for which he probably wasn't qualified.
Clearly ESPN, after a five-month investigation, doesn't think it's a coincidence. Neither do the kids who've played for Mark Adams. Maybe it's because they don't have your connections.
Nobody has said Tom Crean can't recruit. But his sudden success with one particular program after hiring the son of its operator is a little too convenient to ignore. Is it cheating? No, at least not then it wasn't. But it is shady. You've certainly squirmed over much less and I find it hard to believe you'd defend any other coach under these circumstances.
Let's cut to the chase, shall we. Do you think Indiana is cheating here? Do you think Duke is since they got players from Elite? Butler? Purdue? I'm just curious as your feigned outrage seems to be at IU because of your dislike for the former coach.
To me, this is all about A-Hope. If they are doing something wrong, they will get tagged accordingly and players may be ineligible. That stuff happens where players get benefits they shouldn't have but has nothing to do with the college. This is the issue I have with you on this...what has IU done wrong on this? From what I can tell...nothing. All the improprieties, if any exist at all, are with the AAU program (wow, who would have thought that...AAU and problems) and this A-Hope organization. At the end of the day, a number of schools get players from there, but you've made it this grand conspiracy that only IU is. You've further gone down the path to suggest that the timing is all associated with Adams kid. Well, then stick to your guns damnit. If the players go there because of Adams, then they'll stop going there now that Adams isn't there. But we all know that's not what you will say because you want to have it both ways.
Everything I'm reading says this is legal....including the 5 month investigation by ESPN. Let me state that again...everything is legal. The things I squirmed about with Buzz were things that we were accused of doing that were not considered "technically legal". DO YOU GET IT?
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The Big Lead has picked it up now. Seems to be gaining steam, though they claim everything is technically legal.
http://thebiglead.com/index.php/2011/05/27/i-wonder-if-brad-stevens-is-monitoring-this-tom-crean-aau-mess-update/
This is also interesting
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2009/01/20/espn-fish-decline-interview-on-steelers-and-hgh-story
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Let's cut to the chase, shall we. Do you think Indiana is cheating here? Do you think Duke is since they got players from Elite? Butler? Purdue? I'm just curious as your feigned outrage seems to be at IU because of your dislike for the former coach.
The difference is because Indiana hired Adams. While it may not have been illegal at the time, it became illegal immediately afterwards. And let's be honest, the notion of colleges giving jobs to people and getting high-level recruits out of it has been going on for quite awhile and is something that makes most everyone involved squirm.
To me, this is all about A-Hope. If they are doing something wrong, they will get tagged accordingly and players may be ineligible. That stuff happens where players get benefits they shouldn't have but has nothing to do with the college. This is the issue I have with you on this...what has IU done wrong on this? From what I can tell...nothing. All the improprieties, if any exist at all, are with the AAU program (wow, who would have thought that...AAU and problems) and this A-Hope organization. At the end of the day, a number of schools get players from there, but you've made it this grand conspiracy that only IU is. You've further gone down the path to suggest that the timing is all associated with Adams kid. Well, then stick to your guns damnit. If the players go there because of Adams, then they'll stop going there now that Adams isn't there. But we all know that's not what you will say because you want to have it both ways.
It's not all about A-HOPE, but it's also not all about Indiana. It's also about Tennessee, who reaped the rewards while Adams was there and seemed to lose those benefits when he left, seemingly not under the most cordial of circumstances. On the other hand, Indiana and Adams seem to have parted under good circumstances, and it seems like the connection has helped Adams move forward. While UNM may get more players, that doesn't mean the Indiana pipeline will dry up.
Everything I'm reading says this is legal....including the 5 month investigation by ESPN. Let me state that again...everything is legal. The things I squirmed about with Buzz were things that we were accused of doing that were not considered "technically legal". DO YOU GET IT?
It was legal...at the time. And rules have been written to make it illegal now. Just because something is legal doesn't mean it is ethical, and ESPN's article does a very good job of illustrating that while IU may not have been breaking any rules, they were certainly involved in a hiring that doesn't seem to be on the up-and-up.
It reminds me a bit of baseball players and steroids. Just because it wasn't banned by the game doesn't mean it was on the up-and-up when McGwire, Sosa, and Bonds were juicing. And I'm not talking about the legal ramifications. That's a completely different argument and has no place here. I'm strictly talking about them doing something to increase there numbers that was against the spirit of the game. It may not have been illegal at the time, but that doesn't mean they didn't know it wasn't ethical.
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Let's cut to the chase, shall we. Do you think Indiana is cheating here? Do you think Duke is since they got players from Elite? Butler? Purdue? I'm just curious as your feigned outrage seems to be at IU because of your dislike for the former coach.
To me, this is all about A-Hope. If they are doing something wrong, they will get tagged accordingly and players may be ineligible. That stuff happens where players get benefits they shouldn't have but has nothing to do with the college. This is the issue I have with you on this...what has IU done wrong on this? From what I can tell...nothing. All the improprieties, if any exist at all, are with the AAU program (wow, who would have thought that...AAU and problems) and this A-Hope organization. At the end of the day, a number of schools get players from there, but you've made it this grand conspiracy that only IU is. You've further gone down the path to suggest that the timing is all associated with Adams kid. Well, then stick to your guns damnit. If the players go there because of Adams, then they'll stop going there now that Adams isn't there. But we all know that's not what you will say because you want to have it both ways.
Everything I'm reading says this is legal....including the 5 month investigation by ESPN. Let me state that again...everything is legal. The things I squirmed about with Buzz were things that we were accused of doing that were not considered "technically legal". DO YOU GET IT?
Yes ... I get it. You have differing sets of ethical standards for different people and programs.
I've already answered your question about cheating. It was not cheating because what he did wasn't against the rules at the time. It is against the rules today.
But that's not the only point here. The point is that IU, Tom Crean and this AAU program have engaged in a sleazy relationship in which both sides benefit in several ways, including financially. A relationship that if involving Bob Huggins, John Caliapri, Rick Pitino or, God forbid, Buzz Williams, would have you in a squirm seizure.
The Adams family benefits in that Drew Adams got a job for which he probably wasn't qualified and opportunities to further a prospective coaching career that otherwise might not have existed.
IU benefits in that it gets a gaggle of elite players from a program that's been producing them in bunches.
Tom Crean benefits in that he gets to keep his $2+ million a year job.
How's this much different than Calipari hiring DeJuan Wagner's dad, or Larry Brown hiring Danny Manning's dad? It isn't.
Those moves also were legal. And like IU's, they were also slimy.
Interesting to learn you're OK with questionable behavior, so long as it's within the bounds of NCAA rules. I presume that means you'll be taking back everything you said about the DJ Newbill situation (you know ... the story that HBO looked into and took a pass on).
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Yes ... I get it. You have differing sets of ethical standards for different people and programs.
I've already answered your question about cheating. It was not cheating because what he did wasn't against the rules at the time. It is against the rules today.
But that's not the only point here. The point is that IU, Tom Crean and this AAU program have engaged in a sleazy relationship in which both sides benefit in several ways, including financially. A relationship that if involving Bob Huggins, John Caliapri, Rick Pitino or, God forbid, Buzz Williams, would have you in a squirm seizure.
The Adams family benefits in that Drew Adams got a job for which he probably wasn't qualified and opportunities to further a prospective coaching career that otherwise might not have existed.
IU benefits in that it gets a gaggle of elite players from a program that's been producing them in bunches.
Tom Crean benefits in that he gets to keep his $2+ million a year job.
How's this much different than Calipari hiring DeJuan Wagner's dad, or Larry Brown hiring Danny Manning's dad? It isn't.
Those moves also were legal. And like IU's, they were also slimy.
Interesting to learn you're OK with questionable behavior, so long as it's within the bounds of NCAA rules. I presume that means you'll be taking back everything you said about the DJ Newbill situation (you know ... the story that HBO looked into and took a pass on).
Thanks for not answering my questions, what you accuse me of doing constantly...oh the irony. Thank you also for putting words into my mouth.
How it is different than hiring DeJuan Wagner's dad....are you f'ing serious? Hiring Wagner meant Wagner went there. Hiring Manning's dad meant Manning went there. Hiring Adams means these kids went there? Really? It had nothing to do with wanting to stay in state? NOOOOO. It had nothing to do with wanting to play for a coach that has put guys in the NBA for the last 10 years? NOOOO. I just laugh how quickly you get there and to compare hiring Wagner's dad and Manning's dad to hiring a video coordinator who couldn't deliver a cup of coffee, let alone players is comical. It's hard to take you serious when you are suggesting those hires are the same. Truly comical.
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Thanks for not answering my questions, what you accuse me of doing constantly...oh the irony. Thank you also for putting words into my mouth.
How it is different than hiring DeJuan Wagner's dad....are you f'ing serious? Hiring Wagner meant Wagner went there. Hiring Manning's dad meant Manning went there. Hiring Adams means these kids went there? Really? It had nothing to do with wanting to stay in state? NOOOOO. It had nothing to do with wanting to play for a coach that has put guys in the NBA for the last 10 years? NOOOO. I just laugh how quickly you get there and to compare hiring Wagner's dad and Manning's dad to hiring a video coordinator who couldn't deliver a cup of coffee, let alone players is comical. It's hard to take you serious when you are suggesting those hires are the same. Truly comical.
Chicos, this is probably the least objective I've seen you in quite awhile. The article clearly states that some of these players were living with Adams, some of them relied on him for everything. It's entirely possible, and in some of these cases, likely that they built a brotherly relationship with Drew Adams. So at the end of the day, no, it's really not any different.
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Thanks for not answering my questions, what you accuse me of doing constantly...oh the irony. Thank you also for putting words into my mouth.
In your previous post, you asked me two questions: whether I thought Indiana was cheating and whether I "get it."
I answered both.
You've obviously decided that TC can do no wrong and is above reproach, despite the mountain of evidence to the contrary. If you wish to play ostrich, don't let me stop you.
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I have little doubt that Indiana stopped short of doing anything illegal here. I have even less doubt that they hired Adam's kid and took the other guy's kid as a preferred walkon as part of a wink/wink, nod/nod deal.
Yea, this is the slimy underbelly of college recruiting. Crean certainly isn't the first coach to hire people for recruiting favors in return. If my memory is correct, this is a Calipari special. Top notch recruit commits to Calipari and them by complete coincidence, that recruit's family member gets hired on by the university Calipari is coaching at.
When coaches do this though, i'm sure they are careful to do it in ways to not break technical regulations, and i'm sure Crean did here. Yea it looks really sleazy, but if Crean didn't technically break any rules and all these recruits he got steered to Indiana help the program win, the fans there will be happy because let's face it, the vast majority of fans only care about winning so long as their program avoids any actual sanctions, regardless is things looks kinda sleazy.
Hell, Calipari is a prime example. Kentucky fans love him and will keep loving him so long as he keeps winning and can avoid getting the university in actual trouble. His sleazy factor is irrelevant to their fans.
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Have to agree, the comparison with Manning and Wagner is a mighty stretch.
Wagner and Manning were asked to deliver their sons in exchange for a 4 year job and hundreds of thousands of dollars (in salary) for that delivery. We're talking blood money.
Hiring this kid, who was qualified for the position, is going to deliver who exactly? IU has been getting kids from this AAU program and others for a long time. For full disclosure, I have a graduate degree from Purdue and would love to see Indiana get tagged but this seems like nothing but a big yawn.
It seems a mighty stretch to suggest kids were going to IU because some 20 something kid was there in a low level position where he was probably paid $30K a year or something. Its certainly not close to the Wagner or Manning situation by any stretch.
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Have to agree, the comparison with Manning and Wagner is a mighty stretch.
Wagner and Manning were asked to deliver their sons in exchange for a 4 year job and hundreds of thousands of dollars (in salary) for that delivery. We're talking blood money.
Hiring this kid, who was qualified for the position, is going to deliver who exactly? IU has been getting kids from this AAU program and others for a long time. For full disclosure, I have a graduate degree from Purdue and would love to see Indiana get tagged but this seems like nothing but a big yawn.
It seems a mighty stretch to suggest kids were going to IU because some 20 something kid was there in a low level position where he was probably paid $30K a year or something. Its certainly not close to the Wagner or Manning situation by any stretch.
Hoop - You have a very curious posting history. Your 20 posts thus far lead one to believe: A - You are Chicos. B. You are a friend of Chicos. C. Marquette 84, or D. Marquette 84's friend which makes you Chicos.
You sure seem pretty happy with Tom Crean's recruiting and alliance with the Indiana Elite for a Purdue grad. From everything I know, Purdue and IU are firece rivals in hoops...yet you seem oddly a fan and supportive of Tom Crean/Indiana. Am I missing something??
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Have to agree, the comparison with Manning and Wagner is a mighty stretch.
Really?
Mark Adams provides some of these kids with food and shelter. He arranges for them to receive an education. He provides them with opportunities they'd never receive in their home lands. He's been described as a father figure to these kids.
And yet you think "it's a stretch" to think he'd have parental-like influence over them.
Hmmm.
Also, you've got your facts wrong.
If you think Milt Wagner earned "hundreds of thousands of dollars" as Memphis' coordinator of basketball operations - the same job for which you believe Drew Adams earned $30K at Indiana - you're out of your gourd.
And I very much doubt any assistant - much less Danny Manning's dad - was making a salary in the hundreds of thousands of dollars a year in the mid 1980s. In fact, SI reported back then that Manning's salary was between $27,500 and $30,000.
How much did you say Drew Adams was probably earning?
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1121385/index.htm
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You sure seem pretty happy with Tom Crean's recruiting and alliance with the Indiana Elite for a Purdue grad. From everything I know, Purdue and IU are firece rivals in hoops...yet you seem oddly a fan and supportive of Tom Crean/Indiana. Am I missing something??
Do you have a graduate degree of some kind? MBA? Masters? One's passion for their graduate school is much different than their experiences as an undergraduate and that includes supporting the teams. In fact it is not uncommon for MU undergraduates to attend Wisconsin for graduate school, or Notre Dame, or DePaul. Nor is it uncommon for Indiana undergraduates to attend Purdue for graduate school and vice versa. Yes, Purdue and Indiana are rivals. However, you seem to be stating that someone that went to one school cannot be objective about that school's rival. Or am I missing something?
Objectivity is the name of the game. That ESPN article was pretty weak and the subsequent articles that have come out to shed much brighter light on the situation shows Indiana didn't do anything wrong. I fail to see how attending Purdue should make me less objective in my viewpoints simply because Indiana is one of the focuses of the article. For that matter, so what Purdue since the Boilers have tapped into this AAU team over the years as well, some years receiving more players than IU has.
Maybe you are incapable of objectivity when it comes to Indiana and Crean, whom you have shown to have a great disregard for. Personally, he looks like a jerk and probably is but cheating has never been something that has been linked to him.
Hoop - You have a very curious posting history. Your 20 posts thus far lead one to believe: A - You are Chicos. B. You are a friend of Chicos. C. Marquette 84, or D. Marquette 84's friend which makes you Chicos.
One would lead others to believe that you are either A- Buzz Williams. B. Buzz Williams wife. C. A friend of Buzz Williams. D. Buzz Williams mistress
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Hey Ners, I'm at my son's travel ball baseball tournament...3 games today...we're in between game 1 and 2 so taking a break. Maybe hooploop can join me here. Lol. You are a trip...glad the obsession you have with me, 84 and others extends into the Memorial Day weekend.
Hooploop, welcome to the non lemming club in which you will have everything from your loyalty to your citizenship questioned by ners and his pals. You might want to get your birth certificate ready for these guys
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Hey Ners, I'm at my son's travel ball baseball tournament...3 games today...we're in between game 1 and 2 so taking a break. Maybe hooploop can join me here. Lol. You are a trip...glad the obsession you have with me, 84 and others extends into the Memorial Day weekend.
U talk about Ners' obsession with you.....in between your son's baseball games with the travel team?
LOL ;D
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Maybe you are incapable of objectivity when it comes to Indiana and Crean, whom you have shown to have a great disregard for. Personally, he looks like a jerk and probably is but cheating has never been something that has been linked to him.
One would lead others to believe that you are either A- Buzz Williams. B. Buzz Williams wife. C. A friend of Buzz Williams. D. Buzz Williams mistress
Actually Hoop - I don't have a great disregard for Crean - at all. I have a great disregard for his biggest fan here, who constantly belittles our current coach. I tend to be very supportive of the coach at my Alma mater - the CURRENT coach particularly when they have gotten the team great results in just 3 short years. Yes, I'm very enthused with Buzz Williams and appreciate what he's done in his short time at MU. I don't try to fault find every single thing I can about the CURRENT head coach of my Alma mater...WHILE CHAMPIONING EVERYTING ABOUT THE FORMER COACH.
Hypocrisy is a pet peeve of most people.
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Let's say he starts pushing one program after that program's head coach gives his kid a coveted job for which he's arguably not qualified.
Just curious--can you share the specific requirements of the job of Coordinator of Basketball Systems at IU that Drew Adams arguably lacked?
You say he was "arguably not qualified."
Well, make the argument.
There is ample evidence that Crean would consider this an entry level position--much as Todd Townsend was qualified enough to be hired as Director of Basketball Operations following his graduation in 2005 with zero coaching or playing experience. Or Brian Wardle getting the same title in 2003 with two years of NBDL/CBA experience, but zero coaching.
I think you'll be hard pressed to make any rational case that Drew Adams was any less qualified to be a mere "Coordinator of Basketball Systems" with two years as a Student Assistant at Tennessee under his belt.
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U talk about Ners' obsession with you.....in between your son's baseball games with the travel team?
LOL ;D
Nothing else to do Tim, sitting around 3 hours for the next game you get a little bored, decided to read MU Scoop and I come across Ners typical BS. I wonder how many posters he doesn't agree with that he chalks up on his wall of enemies. Joe McCarthyesque
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Actually Hoop - I don't have a great disregard for Crean - at all.
Really....you're such a liar sometimes it's pretty pathetic.
You keep saying you don't have a disregard yet you keep slipping in wonderful gems to contradict those statements...care to calibrate for us? LOL. Ironic...same thing you accuse me of. Circle of life Simba
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Chicos, this is probably the least objective I've seen you in quite awhile. The article clearly states that some of these players were living with Adams, some of them relied on him for everything. It's entirely possible, and in some of these cases, likely that they built a brotherly relationship with Drew Adams. So at the end of the day, no, it's really not any different.
Sorry Brew, "likely built a brotherly relationship"...how long would that statement last in court before being jettisoned out in a nanosecond. You are totally speculating. That is far different that HIRING THE FATHER. Are you and Pakuni comparing hiring a kid's father with hiring a kid that "likely built a brotherly relationship"? Come on, who's being objective and who isn't. Listen to what you are saying.
A father that has been with them since birth for 18 years is equivalent to a KID that they lived with for one Summer. WOW. Yes Brew, at the END OF THE DAY, it's REALLY different.
PS Pakuni...salary calculators says $30K in 1985 is worth anywhere from $58K to $91K in 2011 depending on the calculator you use. I'd be curious to also know if Mrs. Manning and Mrs. Wagner were also setup with jobs in the town, that would also need to be added into the take. Again...REALLY different. As for the claim that this kid wasn't qualified, says who? The guy was more qualified than most for those types of positions.
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Objectivity is the name of the game. That ESPN article was pretty weak and the subsequent articles that have come out to shed much brighter light on the situation shows Indiana didn't do anything wrong.
A couple of things. First, yes this could ultimately bite IU in the butt if something wrong was going on, but everything I'm hearing is that's absolutely nothing. Glass has been aware of it for 2+ years and anyone who knows Glass knows he isn't tolerating ANYTHING that isn't on the up and up. My biggest beef with the article is that there seems to be very little from the other side...whether it's from Purdue, UNC, IU, etc. There are a few quotes from Crean, none from Glass, none from Purdue folks or any other schools. That's typically how Fish does his stuff. Lobs the grenade in and then you get the REST of the story the following days.
http://kentsterling.com/2011/05/26/indiana-basketball-does-the-relationship-between-tom-crean-and-mark-adams-smell-yep-like-success/
I don't know if anyone here knows who Julie Cromer is but it might be a wise move to understand who she is, first, and then understand what all this means. That's my little hint for Pakuni, ners and a few others here. Specifically look at Julie's background.
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Sorry Brew, "likely built a brotherly relationship"...how long would that statement last in court before being jettisoned out in a nanosecond. You are totally speculating. That is far different that HIRING THE FATHER. Are you and Pakuni comparing hiring a kid's father with hiring a kid that "likely built a brotherly relationship"? Come on, who's being objective and who isn't. Listen to what you are saying.
A father that has been with them since birth for 18 years is equivalent to a KID that they lived with for one Summer. WOW. Yes Brew, at the END OF THE DAY, it's REALLY different.
Again, I'm not saying they broke any rules. Looking at this, I'd say they probably didn't. But if this is what it takes for you to get past this, I guess so be it. Is the comparison of father to stepbrother really that massive of a leap for you? Maybe you just haven't had any experience dealing with extended families, but why don't you listen to what you are saying.
Most of these kids are coming from out of the country. They likely arrive in a very foreign environment with few friends and no family. Then they find themselves living with their coach and his family. The number of people they feel they can rely on and trust will be very limited. If one of the only people they share a roof with, eat their meals with, play video games with, learn the culture with, etc. is suddenly given a job at a place where they can go spend significant time, you really think that's not at all similar to someone's dad getting a job there? We're talking about someone who is probably one of the most important people in their lives at the moment.
Sorry, Chicos, but I just think you are obfuscating the reality of the situation, and I don't get it. Every program has shady situations. Every program has moments that give pause. Marquette has had them. Wisconsin has had them. And Indiana has certainly had them. And I just don't see any way that any rational person can look at this situation and not accept that it may not have been 100% ethical. I'm not saying rules were broken. I'm not saying anything will come of it. But for someone who has no problem feeling squirmy about things that go on at Marquette, you seem pretty willing to let this one go without batting an eye.
Maybe you just think that Crean has such an unimpeachable character that you can't fathom him ever doing anything shady. Maybe you are so blinded by Crimson and Cream goggles that you fail to accept the administration would allow anything remotely questionable to happen (even if it isn't rule-breaking). But in the past, I have never known you to come across like that.
Generally, you seem to think Crean is pretty much an ass, despite your clear respect for his abilities as a coach, motivator, and recruiter. And you seem cognizant that there are grey areas when it comes to recruiting and major college sports. You know I'm not the kind of person who will try to paint you into a corner or attack just because your name is on the post. I just don't see how this situation isn't one that gives you pause. ?-(
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Just curious--can you share the specific requirements of the job of Coordinator of Basketball Systems at IU that Drew Adams arguably lacked?
You say he was "arguably not qualified."
Well, make the argument.
I'll let Josh Pastner make the argument for me.
"One of those schools was Memphis; head coach Josh Pastner -- who cut his coaching teeth in the AAU ranks -- recalls considering Drew Adams for an administrative assistant's position after inquiries from Drew and Drew's father. Pastner acknowledges that Adams had a "lot of good contacts," but at the time the coach was more concerned with finding someone who could handle administrative chores than with the potential access to players.
"I knew the background of both Drew and Mark, but I couldn't afford in the position that I was in to hire a guy I didn't feel was going to help in the area I was going to hire him at," Pastner says. "In an administrative role, players wasn't what I needed in that. I needed organization in the [person's] background."
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/otl/news/story?id=6587668
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Or the converse.
I like Crean and finding absolutely nothing even remotely troubling (squirmy) in ESPN's article.
I hate Buzz and believe every "squirmy" rumor that I hear or make up about him.
Chicos is a douche.
Agreed. It's all perspective and bias.
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Really....you're such a liar sometimes it's pretty pathetic.
You keep saying you don't have a disregard yet you keep slipping in wonderful gems to contradict those statements...care to calibrate for us? LOL. Ironic...same thing you accuse me of. Circle of life Simba
The only pathetic one around here is the individual who would state taking the Marquette Athletic Director position would be a pay cut. Hey everybody, look at me, I make more money than the Marquette Athletic Director!! Here's a pat on the back for you dude - way to go Chicos. Nothing better than bragging about one's income with a message board pat on the back - self given.
As I've said many times - I don't have a great disregard for Tom Crean - but I've grown to pretty much hate your continued cheap shots, barbs, and criticisms of the current coach - while always trumpeting the greatness of the past. Knowing you worked in the athletic department while Tom Crean was at MU, it makes me wonder if you had a real, legitimate man crush on the guy? Did you gaze at him with admiration and lust? Does the fact that Tom Crean's successor pretty much has made Tom Crean seem replaceable, and not that big of loss to the MU comunity - just bother you so much that you have to engage in hypocrisy?
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Again, I'm not saying they broke any rules. Looking at this, I'd say they probably didn't. But if this is what it takes for you to get past this, I guess so be it. Is the comparison of father to stepbrother really that massive of a leap for you? Maybe you just haven't had any experience dealing with extended families, but why don't you listen to what you are saying.
Most of these kids are coming from out of the country. They likely arrive in a very foreign environment with few friends and no family. Then they find themselves living with their coach and his family. The number of people they feel they can rely on and trust will be very limited. If one of the only people they share a roof with, eat their meals with, play video games with, learn the culture with, etc. is suddenly given a job at a place where they can go spend significant time, you really think that's not at all similar to someone's dad getting a job there? We're talking about someone who is probably one of the most important people in their lives at the moment.
Sorry, Chicos, but I just think you are obfuscating the reality of the situation, and I don't get it. Every program has shady situations. Every program has moments that give pause. Marquette has had them. Wisconsin has had them. And Indiana has certainly had them. And I just don't see any way that any rational person can look at this situation and not accept that it may not have been 100% ethical. I'm not saying rules were broken. I'm not saying anything will come of it. But for someone who has no problem feeling squirmy about things that go on at Marquette, you seem pretty willing to let this one go without batting an eye.
Maybe you just think that Crean has such an unimpeachable character that you can't fathom him ever doing anything shady. Maybe you are so blinded by Crimson and Cream goggles that you fail to accept the administration would allow anything remotely questionable to happen (even if it isn't rule-breaking). But in the past, I have never known you to come across like that.
Generally, you seem to think Crean is pretty much an ass, despite your clear respect for his abilities as a coach, motivator, and recruiter. And you seem cognizant that there are grey areas when it comes to recruiting and major college sports. You know I'm not the kind of person who will try to paint you into a corner or attack just because your name is on the post. I just don't see how this situation isn't one that gives you pause. ?-(
I thought this was about whether the Manning \ Wagner situation were the same as you and Pakuni were stating. I'm sorry, I don't see where they are. Your comments above are fine, to each their own and I agree with some of them. Back to Manning \ Wagner, how are they same when someone is hiring a son, employing them and their family vs hiring a kid out of college in a low level job that spent very little time with these kids. Whoever said Stretch did the word Stretch a disservice.
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I'll let Josh Pastner make the argument for me.
"One of those schools was Memphis; head coach Josh Pastner -- who cut his coaching teeth in the AAU ranks -- recalls considering Drew Adams for an administrative assistant's position after inquiries from Drew and Drew's father. Pastner acknowledges that Adams had a "lot of good contacts," but at the time the coach was more concerned with finding someone who could handle administrative chores than with the potential access to players.
"I knew the background of both Drew and Mark, but I couldn't afford in the position that I was in to hire a guy I didn't feel was going to help in the area I was going to hire him at," Pastner says. "In an administrative role, players wasn't what I needed in that. I needed organization in the [person's] background."
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/otl/news/story?id=6587668
OMG is that funny. Yes, because one person saying they are not hiring someone extrapolates to every other school. Let's see, how many schools were lining up to hire Buzz Williams after Tom Crean left....but MU took a chance on him...does that mean all the other schools were wrong? I also love that you use Memphis, the bastion of rules following, to make your point. Classic.
There are people I don't hire all the time because they don't fit my organization but I know they are quality people and will fill a need (even the same job) for someone else. I honestly cannot believe you went there with this example, but it shouldn't surprise me.
Query for you, since Crean hired Buzz Williams and Crean hired Adams.....nevermind.
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Or the converse.
I like Crean and finding absolutely nothing even remotely troubling (squirmy) in ESPN's article.
I hate Buzz and believe every "squirmy" rumor that I hear or make up about him.
Chicos is a douche.
I don't hate Buzz, number one. I don't like Crean, number two. What Buzz was accused of doing IS AGAINST NCAA rules. What Crean is accused of doing, is not.
A significant difference
Now, some of us have been banned for personal attacks yet you don't get banned for stating this...interesting
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The only pathetic one around here is the individual who would state taking the Marquette Athletic Director position would be a pay cut. Hey everybody, look at me, I make more money than the Marquette Athletic Director!! Here's a pat on the back for you dude - way to go Chicos. Nothing better than bragging about one's income with a message board pat on the back - self given.
As I've said many times - I don't have a great disregard for Tom Crean - but I've grown to pretty much hate your continued cheap shots, barbs, and criticisms of the current coach - while always trumpeting the greatness of the past. Knowing you worked in the athletic department while Tom Crean was at MU, it makes me wonder if you had a real, legitimate man crush on the guy? Did you gaze at him with admiration and lust? Does the fact that Tom Crean's successor pretty much has made Tom Crean seem replaceable, and not that big of loss to the MU comunity - just bother you so much that you have to engage in hypocrisy?
I used to work for MU, I know how they pay. It was an enjoyable experience that I won't forget. For the pay an AD makes, having to deal with a bunch of 18-22 year old kids that push the boundaries of sexual assault, drug use (recreational \ steroids), going to class, dealing with agents, dealing with alumni, fund raising, etc that these ADs have to deal with it's not worth the pay. I'm fortunate to have a number of dear friends that are ADs and I don't envy them certain times of the year. As far as my pay comment, it was originally a joke but you obviously missed it. Then my stupidity kicked in and I responded to your lame comment.
I worked for Tom Crean for all of 6 months ners...most of my exposure was to Tim Buckley, Darrin Horn and D. Stephens. Certainly I had my time with Crean as well. I'll always be appreciative of him putting MU back on the map...let's hope Buzz can keep us there and get us back into the top half of the Big East. My father died unexpectedly (tomorrow is the anniversary) and I needed to get back home to California to help my mom so I took a job in professional sports, so my run with Crean was not long. Several friends remained at the department and worked for a few years for Crean. It was hell for them. He's a tough guy to work for...guess what...so are many CEOs, owners in pro sports, VP's, etc. This is not new news....some driven people are a bear to work for. Perhaps you have not had that experience to work for such people or work in very high profile firms \ companies that seem to have many of these folks populating the ranks. In many cases it is those type of people that drive the growth of the business, the team, the organization. If you haven't been in that type of environment then it's difficult to explain how it is. You have to be in the eye of the storm to understand it.
Yes, ners, YOU have said before you have no GREAT DISREGARD for him yet a quick search reveals your comments unearth those claims very quickly.
I'm thrilled Tom Crean hired Buzz Williams....though since he apparently cheated by hiring Adams I do wonder now about the hiring process of Buzz....
<teal is sarcasm on this board>
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The problem here isn't the pissing match between Scoop fanbois, but the Baylor vs. IU grudge match--with heavy NCAA stakes involved when someone leaked the deportation comment about Baylor and Perea. The Drews know too much about the Elite so they returned the NCAA favor. (btw, Crean should be fired if he did not recruit Elite)
Chicos, you said this was going away five months ago, and it hasn't.
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=21887.msg253229#msg253229
Here is the problem: Adams is a IU alum and booster, he has now publically proclaimed he has donated his own money to A-HOPE, he has IU recruits living at his home. His VC son was hired at IU in 2009, when IU was still on probation. Pappa has refused to list the donors to A-HOPE, but the NCAA may find it hard to believe that not one Bloomington IU booster or alum are not on the A-HOPE donation list. The problem, as I see it, isn't the VC or the walk-on directly, but the $$ trail.
I doubt Perea plays for IU. If so, he will have to sit out quite a few games. More troubling, perhaps, to IU was that they were on probation when Junior was hired--which adds to the squishiness or squirminess depending on your fanboi--but more so, the NCAA's open interpretations. There is a reason why Glass safely squirreled lil Adams out of town is my guess, despite the statements. And, the Drews will not go quietly you can bet on that--and they are well-armed to protect themselves.
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I don't hate Buzz, number one. I don't like Crean, number two. What Buzz was accused of doing IS AGAINST NCAA rules. What Crean is accused of doing, is not.
A significant difference
Now, some of us have been banned for personal attacks yet you don't get banned for stating this...interesting
Sorry, I was writing the converse to 2002's post. My post should hve read Chicos is not a douche (the opposite of his "Chicos is a douche"), but I forgot the "not" in my post. As for personal insults, how would you rank your calling Ners pathetic and a liar? I'd say it's harsh.
On to more substantive matters. You claim to squirm over unpublished accusations known about only by you made by unnamed individuals about alledged NCAA violations. If true, NCAA investigators will no doubt be descending onto the campus soon. If not, then we can conclude that either the accusations were false or that they're never were any accusations at all. I guess we'll know soon enough.
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I'll let Josh Pastner make the argument for me.
"One of those schools was Memphis; head coach Josh Pastner -- who cut his coaching teeth in the AAU ranks -- recalls considering Drew Adams for an administrative assistant's position after inquiries from Drew and Drew's father. Pastner acknowledges that Adams had a "lot of good contacts," but at the time the coach was more concerned with finding someone who could handle administrative chores than with the potential access to players.
"I knew the background of both Drew and Mark, but I couldn't afford in the position that I was in to hire a guy I didn't feel was going to help in the area I was going to hire him at," Pastner says. "In an administrative role, players wasn't what I needed in that. I needed organization in the [person's] background."
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/otl/news/story?id=6587668
So, because Pastner thought that Adams wasn't qualified for an administrative assistant job at Memphis because he specifically needed someone with strong organizational skills, that means Adams is not qualified for any other job at any other school either? Is that your best argument?
That's an incredibly weak argument.
Can you state that you know for a fact that IU required the same organization skills in their requirement for a Coordinator of Basketball Operations as Pastner needed in his opening for an administrative assistant?
I bet you can't.
Different jobs. Different hiring managers. Different requirements. Lacking one qualification for one of those jobs for one of those hiring managers doesn't say a thing about whether you're unqualified for a different job for a different boss.
Why don't you just admit that you have no clue what the job description was at IU, what Adams' qualifications may or may not have been for that particular job, and that you just pulled the comment about being unqualified completely out of your *ss?
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I used to work for MU, I know how they pay. It was an enjoyable experience that I won't forget. For the pay an AD makes, having to deal with a bunch of 18-22 year old kids that push the boundaries of sexual assault, drug use (recreational \ steroids), going to class, dealing with agents, dealing with alumni, fund raising, etc that these ADs have to deal with it's not worth the pay. I'm fortunate to have a number of dear friends that are ADs and I don't envy them certain times of the year. As far as my pay comment, it was originally a joke but you obviously missed it. Then my stupidity kicked in and I responded to your lame comment.
I worked for Tom Crean for all of 6 months ners...most of my exposure was to Tim Buckley, Darrin Horn and D. Stephens. Certainly I had my time with Crean as well. I'll always be appreciative of him putting MU back on the map...let's hope Buzz can keep us there and get us back into the top half of the Big East. My father died unexpectedly (tomorrow is the anniversary) and I needed to get back home to California to help my mom so I took a job in professional sports, so my run with Crean was not long. Several friends remained at the department and worked for a few years for Crean. It was hell for them. He's a tough guy to work for...guess what...so are many CEOs, owners in pro sports, VP's, etc. This is not new news....some driven people are a bear to work for. Perhaps you have not had that experience to work for such people or work in very high profile firms \ companies that seem to have many of these folks populating the ranks. In many cases it is those type of people that drive the growth of the business, the team, the organization. If you haven't been in that type of environment then it's difficult to explain how it is. You have to be in the eye of the storm to understand it.
Yes, ners, YOU have said before you have no GREAT DISREGARD for him yet a quick search reveals your comments unearth those claims very quickly.
I'm thrilled Tom Crean hired Buzz Williams....though since he apparently cheated by hiring Adams I do wonder now about the hiring process of Buzz....
<teal is sarcasm on this board>
We should all be so lucky to be around movers and shakers. I am in awe and proud to be on the same bulletin board...
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Well laid out by the good doctor. For all of Adam's attempts to portray himself as Fr Flannigan this whole thing stinks to high heaven. Doubtful TC, Glass or IU go down for this as even obvious quid pro quos are difficult to prove, but the stench will linger long after Hanner Perea's eligibility is used up. At least we won't have to put up with the self-righteous, "doing it the right way" nonsense from our IU "insider". "Just win, baby" is alive and well in Bloomington - and somewhere Kelvin Sampson is smiling.
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To be fair, there is only one Drew at Baylor.
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To be fair, there is only one Drew at Baylor.
And another in Indiana at Valpo. Blood is thicker than water.
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Hope you didn't take offense to my statement, didn't mean any harm. I grew up in Valpo and my parents have had season tickets for 25 years or so. Morefield was my "coach" at camp back in the day, and I thought he was kind of a jerk in 7th grade.
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Hope you didn't take offense to my statement, didn't mean any harm. I grew up in Valpo and my parents have had season tickets for 25 years or so. Morefield was my "coach" at camp back in the day, and I thought he was kind of a jerk in 7th grade.
Of course none taken, I hope I didn't convey that--I just wanted to clarify by what I meant by blood feud with the Drews. "As the World Turns". You can tell better stories I am sure. Thanks
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So, because Pastner thought that Adams wasn't qualified for an administrative assistant job at Memphis because he specifically needed someone with strong organizational skills, that means Adams is not qualified for any other job at any other school either? Is that your best argument?
That's an incredibly weak argument.
Can you state that you know for a fact that IU required the same organization skills in their requirement for a Coordinator of Basketball Operations as Pastner needed in his opening for an administrative assistant?
I bet you can't.
Different jobs. Different hiring managers. Different requirements. Lacking one qualification for one of those jobs for one of those hiring managers doesn't say a thing about whether you're unqualified for a different job for a different boss.
Why don't you just admit that you have no clue what the job description was at IU, what Adams' qualifications may or may not have been for that particular job, and that you just pulled the comment about being unqualified completely out of your *ss?
Especially when you consider in 2009 it was quoted in the Herald Times that he had other offers from other schools but wanted to return to Bloomington where he grew up (he attended Bloomington South High School, played one year of college ball for Steve Alford at Iowa and then transferred to Tennessee). I guess those other offers he got were from schools that also clearly didn't know how to hire...right Pakuni? LOL
Adam spent the last two seasons as a student assistant at Tennessee. He also played one season at Iowa under Steve Alford (current Indiana assistant Tim Buckley was on the staff there at the time.) Adams played three years for South and was the leading scorer and team captain his senior year.
“It’s pretty special for him to be able to work for a program he grew up around,” said Drew’s father Mark. “He had other offers, but being able to be here and be part of Indiana basketball was something he couldn’t pass up.”
My favorite is the Illinois board when in 2009 they said what a great move it was by Crean to hire Adams. A smart, good, solid move were just some of the adjectives used. Of course when IU started to land some recruits, it was no longer smart, good, or solid. I love fans. In early May when New Mexico hired Adams (with a raise I might add...not a "lateral move" as some claimed), UNM fans loved it. Called it a great hire (which our fans would have done the same thing....no one here should kid themselves to suggest anything less).
By the way, anyone know the Marquette tie in all this? Brian Barone. When Barone left to UWGB, Adams was promoted up to Video Coordinator. I'll bet Crean paid off Barone to take the job with Wardle so he could get Adams a sweeter gig.
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The problem here isn't the pissing match between Scoop fanbois, but the Baylor vs. IU grudge match--with heavy NCAA stakes involved when someone leaked the deportation comment about Baylor and Perea. The Drews know too much about the Elite so they returned the NCAA favor. (btw, Crean should be fired if he did not recruit Elite)
Chicos, you said this was going away five months ago, and it hasn't.
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=21887.msg253229#msg253229
Here is the problem: Adams is a IU alum and booster, he has now publically proclaimed he has donated his own money to A-HOPE, he has IU recruits living at his home. His VC son was hired at IU in 2009, when IU was still on probation. Pappa has refused to list the donors to A-HOPE, but the NCAA may find it hard to believe that not one Bloomington IU booster or alum are not on the A-HOPE donation list. The problem, as I see it, isn't the VC or the walk-on directly, but the $$ trail.
I doubt Perea plays for IU. If so, he will have to sit out quite a few games. More troubling, perhaps, to IU was that they were on probation when Junior was hired--which adds to the squishiness or squirminess depending on your fanboi--but more so, the NCAA's open interpretations. There is a reason why Glass safely squirreled lil Adams out of town is my guess, despite the statements. And, the Drews will not go quietly you can bet on that--and they are well-armed to protect themselves.
I can't control if ESPN decides to put up a story 5 months later that is basically the same stuff ran months ago.
I wouldn't be surprised if Perea doesn't play for IU either....what does this have to do with IU? Did IU house Perea? No.
He's not my fanboi but you have the Pakuni, House, Ners talking points down...congratulations
You have no idea why Adams left....your "guess" is exactly that...a GUESS
I say again....Julie Cromer. END OF STORY
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Interesting to learn you're OK with questionable behavior, so long as it's within the bounds of NCAA rules. I presume that means you'll be taking back everything you said about the DJ Newbill situation (you know ... the story that HBO looked into and took a pass on).
1) Are you suggesting HBO wasn't doing a story on a number of college recruits that were bailed on after they signed their NLI's with Bryant Gumbel's Real Sports and that Newbill was one of several players that were part of that story? Are you suggesting this was made up or are you saying you have no f'ing clue and don't know the details of it?
2) I don't support questionable behavior that's why I was so against what we did to Newbill as well as some of the other lovely things we have been accused of doing. IU hired a former DI basketball player, a student manager at one of the top programs in the country, with a college degree, from Bloomington, to come on board in an entry level position. Not only not against NCAA rules at the time but considered a smart move by most in the college basketball circle. The irony is the first two years the kid was on board, IU landed two Indiana Elite kids...one who isn't even on the team any longer. Now, in year three, they land a bunch of kids and it's all due to this kid? Laughable.
Notre Dame coach Mike Brey also acknowledges that recruiting can occur that way [through relationships], though saying he can't recall landing an Indiana Elite or A-HOPE player in 11 years. As for IU's recent run of success, he says: "I certainly know what Bloomington means to a kid that has grown up in Indiana. It's doesn't matter what AAU team you play for, that has been a powerful thing. And I think Tom [Crean] has done a really good job of getting the momentum going in the state again."
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Especially when you consider in 2009 it was quoted in the Herald Times that he had other offers from other schools but wanted to return to Bloomington where he grew up (he attended Bloomington South High School, played one year of college ball for Steve Alford at Iowa and then transferred to Tennessee). I guess those other offers he got were from schools that also clearly didn't know how to hire...right Pakuni? LOL
Adam spent the last two seasons as a student assistant at Tennessee. He also played one season at Iowa under Steve Alford (current Indiana assistant Tim Buckley was on the staff there at the time.) Adams played three years for South and was the leading scorer and team captain his senior year.
“It’s pretty special for him to be able to work for a program he grew up around,” said Drew’s father Mark. “He had other offers, but being able to be here and be part of Indiana basketball was something he couldn’t pass up.”
Maybe Drew Adams had other offers and maybe he didn't, but it's laughable that your "proof" is his Daddy (who's right at the epicenter of this stinkhole). Certainly an unimpeachable source with no dog in this fight.
And even IF true, what would it prove? That other schools are willing to trade a job for Hanner Perea? This exonerates IU how?
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Maybe Drew Adams had other offers and maybe he didn't, but it's laughable that your "proof" is his Daddy (who's right at the epicenter of this stinkhole). Certainly an unimpeachable source with no dog in this fight.
And even IF true, what would it prove? That other schools are willing to trade a job for Hanner Perea? This exonerates IU how?
Excuse me, show me one shred of evidence that taking on Adams meant Perea goes to IU? Since he was hired several years ago, why didn't he just verbal then? Please...talk about a stretch of wild proportions on your part. Show me where ANY evidence exists that hiring Adams meant getting players. If so, why did IU only get 2 in his first two years, one of which isn't even on the team any longer and oh by the way was likely coming to Marquette because Crean had been recruiting hm for that long. Don't let those pesky details get in the way of your hatred.
Even ESPN is saying IU did nothing wrong...another pesky detail you don't like. Apparently New Mexico is going to RAKE in the kids now, especially since they are willing to "trade a job for" players per Lenny. Good grief.
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Well laid out by the good doctor. For all of Adam's attempts to portray himself as Fr Flannigan this whole thing stinks to high heaven. Doubtful TC, Glass or IU go down for this as even obvious quid pro quos are difficult to prove, but the stench will linger long after Hanner Perea's eligibility is used up. At least we won't have to put up with the self-righteous, "doing it the right way" nonsense from our IU "insider". "Just win, baby" is alive and well in Bloomington - and somewhere Kelvin Sampson is smiling.
Even "obvious quid pro quos"....wow....not a shred of evidence but there you go. Glass is unimpeachable as is Julie Cromer....it would be so nice for you to actually understand who the players are but you have no clue and your hatred clouds your every words.
You so want something to come of this that you are salivating. It's dripping on your keyboard. Funny stuff and sad. Facts be damned...it's all a quid pro quo. LOL
Nope, didn't have anything to do with wanting to play for Indiana University...instead it was a quid pro quo.
Nope, didn't have anything to do with Cook Hall opening last year, the premier practice venue in college basketball bar none...instead it was a quid pro quo.
Nope, didn't have anything to do with playing for a coach that somehow (without Adams) got Dwyane Wade, Steve Novak, Jerel McNeal, Wesley Matthews, Lazar Hayward, Travis Diener and some guy named Buzz Williams to come be part of his team at Marquette....instead it was a quid pro quo.
Nope, didn't have anything to do with Crean's past history of keeping in state kids home...Travis Diener, Scott Merritt, Steve Novak, Wesley Matthews, Terry Sanders, etc, etc and somehow we're to think he couldn't do that with Indiana kids.....instead it was a quid pro quo.
Nope, didn't have anything to do with finally having a team clear of NCAA probations and any other issues that could keep the program down and thus not be enticing for a basketball player to attend....instead it was a quid pro quo.
Nope, didn't have anything to do with almost all of these kids from the state of Indiana and from a reasonable driving distance of Bloomington desiring to stay at home to play for the hometown school (not just home state, but hometown)....instead it was a quid pro quo.
House, you should get out of the doctor business on tv and become an inspector. Maybe a CSI show for you.
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Excuse me, show me one shred of evidence that taking on Adams meant Perea goes to IU? Since he was hired several years ago, why didn't he just verbal then? Please...talk about a stretch of wild proportions on your part. Show me where ANY evidence exists that hiring Adams meant getting players. If so, why did IU only get 2 in his first two years, one of which isn't even on the team any longer and oh by the way was likely coming to Marquette because Crean had been recruiting hm for that long. Don't let those pesky details get in the way of your hatred.
Even ESPN is saying IU did nothing wrong...another pesky detail you don't like. Apparently New Mexico is going to RAKE in the kids now, especially since they are willing to "trade a job for" players per Lenny. Good grief.
You of all people want evidence? You who've gone after Buzz on stuff that is at best rumor and innuendo and at worst totally fabricated? I've already said that IU likely skates on this - short of tapes, and neither Crean nor Adams are that stupid, how can one "prove" that this thing that looks like a duck, waddles like a duck and quacks like a duck is indeed a duck? That doesn't mean that people won't connect the dots on the IU/Adams "arrangement" and think it smells like a three day old fish. Any IU backer who is not troubled or squirming over this is either a fool or a lemming/fanboy. I'll be the first to concede that you're no fool.
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Now c'mon Lenny. Chicos only calls it how he sees it. Unless its IU.
Exactly. And just as ESPN stated yesterday by Brenan.."Really, the story is A-HOPE" pretty much sums it up. Exactly what I've been saying...too bad it took ESPN's second journalist to state this and not the first one.
Thanks for concurring with me. God Bless America and Happy Memorial Day
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If ESPN ran this story about Marquette, Chicos would probably need another "time out" and he'd probably throw in reference to our players being "dogs."
Or maybe even a reference about how Buzz Williams married his wife for nefarious reasons, eh PRN? That was a new low blow, even for you.
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You of all people want evidence? You who've gone after Buzz on stuff that is at best rumor and innuendo and at worst totally fabricated? I've already said that IU likely skates on this - short of tapes, and neither Crean nor Adams are that stupid, how can one "prove" that this thing that looks like a duck, waddles like a duck and quacks like a duck is indeed a duck? That doesn't mean that people won't connect the dots on the IU/Adams "arrangement" and think it smells like a three day old fish. Any IU backer who is not troubled or squirming over this is either a fool or a lemming/fanboy. I'll be the first to concede that you're no fool.
BS, that's not what you said. YOU SAID THEY GOT PLAYERS AS A RESULT OF HIRING ADAMS AND IT WAS A QUID PRO QUO and an OBVIOUS one at that. You can't even own up to your own damn words you stated earlier today. Pathetic
"EVEN OBVIOUS QUID PRO QUOS"...your words. Tell me now that means something different than what everyone knows you meant it to mean. Please, tell us.
Funny, for the same reason I can name a bunch of MU fans that didn't squirm about a number of things going on at MU the last 2 years because they are lemmings and fanboys...go figure.
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Even "obvious quid pro quos"....wow....not a shred of evidence but there you go. Glass is unimpeachable as is Julie Cromer....it would be so nice for you to actually understand who the players are but you have no clue and your hatred clouds your every words.
You so want something to come of this that you are salivating. It's dripping on your keyboard. Funny stuff and sad. Facts be damned...it's all a quid pro quo. LOL
Nope, didn't have anything to do with wanting to play for Indiana University...instead it was a quid pro quo.
House, you should get out of the doctor business on tv and become an inspector. Maybe a CSI show for you.
As previously stated, a "smoking gun" is almost never found in a case like this. The circumstantial evidence (which can be enough for a first degree murder conviction), though, points directly at Adams and IU.
Glass and Cromer are "unimpeachable" why? Because you say so? Don't try that in a court of law or in front of the NCAA infractions committee.
I don't hate Crean or anyone else. I wasn't brought up that way. I do wonder about people who treat others abysmally and engender fierce dislike and even hatred because of it. What went haywire in their lives to make them that way?
Do you really think that Hanner Perea grew up in Colombia dreaming of playing for Indiana?
Finally, please stop calling me out by name, occupation, etc. It's creepy, smacks of a stalker's mentality and is childish, not clever.
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Exactly. And just as ESPN stated yesterday by Brenan.."Really, the story is A-HOPE" pretty much sums it up. Exactly what I've been saying...too bad it took ESPN's second journalist to state this and not the first one.
Thanks for concurring with me. God Bless America and Happy Memorial Day
So you agree you only "call it as you see it" unless it's about IU? Finally the Memorial Day miracle we've all been waiting for.
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BS, that's not what you said. YOU SAID THEY GOT PLAYERS AS A RESULT OF HIRING ADAMS AND IT WAS A QUID PRO QUO and an OBVIOUS one at that. You can't even own up to your own damn words you stated earlier today. Pathetic
"EVEN OBVIOUS QUID PRO QUOS"...your words. Tell me now that means something different than what everyone knows you meant it to mean. Please, tell us.
Funny, for the same reason I can name a bunch of MU fans that didn't squirm about a number of things going on at MU the last 2 years because they are lemmings and fanboys...go figure.
I think it is pretty obvious they got players from the AAU team by hiring the son of the AAU coach (and guardian, benefactor,etc). Whether the circumstantial evidence will be enough for the NCAA - don't know, probably not.
The funny thing is you call us fanboys for not squiming about things nowhere near established in the public record. You (who have had a hard on for Buzz since the day he was hired) give us innuendo from unnamed sources that "proves" Buzz is violating NCAA rules. Well, I don't see ESPN or the NCAA camping out on the MU campus, so forgive me and others if we take your unsourced allegations with a grain of salt.
This Indiana stuff is well established in the public record. And believe me, if Buzz hired Mac Irvin's kid and in turn Mac was bringing 5 star kids to his home from Colombia, providing for said kids and then delivering them to Buzz and MU you would be going batsh*t. And you know it.
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I think it is pretty obvious they got players from the AAU team by hiring the son of the AAU coach (and guardian, benefactor,etc). Whether the circumstantial evidence will be enough for the NCAA - don't know, probably not.
The funny thing is you call us fanboys for not squiming about things nowhere near established in the public record. You (who have had a hard on for Buzz since the day he was hired) give us innuendo from unnamed sources that "proves" Buzz is violating NCAA rules. Well, I don't see ESPN or the NCAA camping out on the MU campus, so forgive me and others if we take your unsourced allegations with a grain of salt.
This Indiana stuff is well established in the public record. And believe me, if Buzz hired Mac Irvin's kid and in turn Mac was bringing 5 star kids to his home from Colombia, providing for said kids and then delivering them to Buzz and MU you would be going batsh*t. And you know it.
Game, set, match. Considering whispers and rumors CBB hears through the grapevine have unnerved him to the degree he's implied - hard to imagine what the reaction would be to the above bolded scenario. At the end of the day, desperate times call for desperate measures, and I can't blame Crean for going the route he did - even if it is Calipari-esque. He wasn't getting 5-star kids to IU prior to making the deal...he did what he had to do in the spirit of winning. Was it illegal? Nope. But we darn well know the self-righteous among the self righteous here - namely CBB - would be completely up in arms if Buzz Williams made such a hire. Thus the continued hypocrisy of the guy who makes more money than the Marquette Athletic Director...per himself.
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As previously stated, a "smoking gun" is almost never found in a case like this. The circumstantial evidence (which can be enough for a first degree murder conviction), though, points directly at Adams and IU.
Glass and Cromer are "unimpeachable" why? Because you say so? Don't try that in a court of law or in front of the NCAA infractions committee.
I don't hate Crean or anyone else. I wasn't brought up that way. I do wonder about people who treat others abysmally and engender fierce dislike and even hatred because of it. What went haywire in their lives to make them that way?
Do you really think that Hanner Perea grew up in Colombia dreaming of playing for Indiana?
Finally, please stop calling me out by name, occupation, etc. It's creepy, smacks of a stalker's mentality and is childish, not clever.
No, I don't think Hanner Perea grew up in Columbia dreaming of playing for Indiana. I think when he got good and had an opportunity to come to the United States and fulfill a dream he took it. Much like some Marquette players have done in the past, Mbao being the latest. Do I think most of the other Indiana Elite kids did...yes, yet you and Pakuni throw things out there like it's some miracle that all these Indiana kids...wait for it...want to play for Indiana.
Stop with the smoking gun BS, it wreaks of desperation and a lack of mental acuity and laziness quite frankly.
Glass and Cromer...no, it's not because I say so it because everyone in athletics (or for that matter those who know Evan Bayh as well as his dealings with the Colts, the stadium, amateur athletics in Indy, the Super Bowl, the Final Fours, etc) that's worth a damn knows it. He is unimpeachable. This is what I've been trying to tell you for three years but since you don't know a damn thing about college athletics or the people in it let alone what happens in the shadows, you wouldn't understand. That's why! I have zero doubt you know very little about Glass and it speaks volumes in this situation. If Fred bought off on this, which it appears by all indications he was in the know from the very start, then this story is over as far as IU is concerned. I also have zero doubt that MOST people have no idea who Cromer is, but again if you knew her background and WHY she was brought in at IU you would know that all this stuff was cleared with the NCAA long ago. This is not an IU story. Nor is it a Purdue story or a Duke story or a UNC story, yet all those schools have ties to Indiana Elite and the Adams. If anything comes of it, it is an A-Hope story. Period. Your desire to wet yourself in hopes of some guilty conviction to please fill your guilty pleasures aren't going to pass. Sorry to say.
You said what you said....you said they were guilty of a quid pro quo for players in exchange for Adams now you want to squirm away from that and say it's a smoking gun and your old Matlock intuition kicks in. By that very definition, you should be greatly worried about Buzz Williams then because there have been plenty of smoking guns behind the scenes as well that have been spoken...does that mean automatic guilt? Or is it only "legitimate" when ESPN puts an article out there on it? You sure seem to think so. Hell, I said the whispers about MU stuf made me squirm but I was clear to say it didn't mean they were true. Yet here you are saying a smoking gun equals guilt for this coach but not for another. Wow, hypocrisy much?
The difference is that we're a small school with a minor national following that doesn't get ESPN to do stories on us because we're not worth their time...that's the reality. IU, KU, UK, Duke, UNC, UCLA, Ohio State those are the types of schools that get shots taken at them, not a MU or Gonzaga or a DePaul, etc. That's just how it is. If we become a powerhouse again, then that's when that type of digging goes on. The back tracking by ESPN the last few days has been interesting. Listening to Fish on the radio yesterday was an absolute embarrassment and Bodenheimer must have been cringing. What a bumbling idiot who couldn't remember who said what and backpedaled on about 80% of this tripe. This has Baylor University written all over it and Fish stumbled badly when he was called out on that question.
Finally, if Buzz hired Mac Irvin's kid today, yeah I would have problems with it...because it's illegal TODAY. DUH. It wasn't then...it was smart. Secondly, are you really comparing Mac Irvin to Adams. I see their reputations as vastly different and I believe most in the recruiting business would agree...not all, but most. Besides, haven't you seen the traditional players that Adams and Indiana Elite produce?
I'm sorry if you don't understand the difference between legal and illegal. What I go bat#$ about is illegal things we are accused of, not the LEGAL things we are doing. Thanks for playing. I rather enjoy the fact we've never been on NCAA probation and hope it stays that way forever.
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Game, set, match. Considering whispers and rumors CBB hears through the grapevine have unnerved him to the degree he's implied - hard to imagine what the reaction would be to the above bolded scenario. At the end of the day, desperate times call for desperate measures, and I can't blame Crean for going the route he did - even if it is Calipari-esque. He wasn't getting 5-star kids to IU prior to making the deal...he did what he had to do in the spirit of winning. Was it illegal? Nope.
Key words in your paragraph...NOT ILLEGAL. That would be the difference between some of the rumors and whispers as well.
If Crean or his staff did something wrong, Glass will fire them as he should. He gets it. He is unimpeachable in my view. If there is something going on that's legit, TC will be fired. If Glass says it's on th up and up, then it's on the up and up.
Game, set and match INDEED.
To suggest it was Calipari-esque...now that is funny. Making comments like that or what Pakuni has done shows how incredibly ignorant you are on the topic. You might as well yell out banana fireman obama anteater and you would show the same cognitive skills and relational knowledge because the comparison is so incorrect.
Don't ever talk to me about hypocrisy. When someone is in love, literally, and has a mancrush (your words) on an individual, you have no objective reasoning at all. NONE. This is why wives rarely testify against their husbands.
PS Crean landed high profile guys long before Adams and will do so long after Adams....whether that's Novak, Diener, Hayward, McNeal, Matthews, James at MU or Creek, Elston, Watford, etc at IU (long before Adams was around) but nice try anyway.
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I'm sorry if you don't understand the difference between legal and illegal. What I go bat#$ about is illegal things we are accused of, not the LEGAL things we are doing. Thanks for playing. I rather enjoy the fact we've never been on NCAA probation and hope it stays that way forever.
This is simply not true. You have been going bat#$ about all things Buzz Williams since the day he was hired. You didn't want him hired in the first place and, as you make eminently clear on a daily basis, you are loathe to admit you were wrong.
Was it "illegal" when Buzz recruited jucos to help keep the program successful? No, but you certainly went bat#$ about it. And even if one takes the Newbill camp's version of events as gospel (as you who claim to be objective did), did anything "illegal" happen? No,yet you went beyond bat#$. And these are but two of many anti-Buzz bat#$ rants you've conjered up in the past. Your shadowy campaign of unsourced innuendo against Buzz is merely the latest in a long history of you going anti-Buzz bat#$, so it's no surprise that almost nobody on this board is willing to take your word for it.
So please don't insult our intelligence by claiming the reason you're not going bat#$ over this IU/Indiana Elite mess is based on legality/illegality as you certainly don't have a record for reserving your self righteousness and indignation for the technically illegal, at least where Buzz Williams and Marquette are concerned. This whole thing stinks, and if it happened at MU on Buzz William's watch you'd be leading the charge saying as much.
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Ohio State hired a ton of compliance geeks. No way would bad behavior ever happen in Columbus again. Gene Smith was going to rule with an iron fist.
Oops.
Not saying this is the story in Bloomington, but it could happen.
3 2 1 Chicos head explodes.
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A story run on ESPN.com is "not a story?"
Classic.
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So, the next dude coachin' tOSU will be in the craphouse for at least 4-5 years judgin' the state of the program Tressel left?
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A couple things here:
--Chicos is spot on about Fred Glass. He has a sterling reputation, which is one of the reasons he was brought in at IU. What happened under Sampson was embarrassing to IU fans. (And I live here and am surrounded by them.)
--Crean's relationship with Adams makes people squirm. It does go right up to the edge of what might be considered inappropriate...but my guess is that the NCAA isn't going find anything. But I do not know this for a fact - no one here does.
--While Adams *may* have had some sort of influence on the Indiana Elite kids going to IU, I fail to see what is so strange about a bunch of in-state prospects all choosing to stay in-state to play for the local basketball power. (And no matter their success, IU hoops will always be a step ahead of Purdue for most local fans...and a staircase ahead of Butler.) As an outsider, I find it facinating, but IU basketball is like Alabama football - a proud tradition of success, but a near obsessive fan-base. The idea that a bunch of prospects want to stay in-state to help revitalize that is not unheard of by any means. It's not that much different, although greater in magnitude, than what Kevin O'Neill did when he first got to MU.
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The difference is that we're a small school with a minor national following that doesn't get ESPN to do stories on us because we're not worth their time...that's the reality. IU, KU, UK, Duke, UNC, UCLA, Ohio State those are the types of schools that get shots taken at them, not a MU or Gonzaga or a DePaul, etc. That's just how it is. If we become a powerhouse again, then that's when that type of digging goes on.
So when we become a powerhouse again like IU (8-49 in conference, two last place finishes in the past three years) ESPN will start taking shots at us. Just imagine how much harder ESPN would have come after IU if they had managed to finish 11th all three years. LOL
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A couple things here:
--While Adams *may* have had some sort of influence on the Indiana Elite kids going to IU, I fail to see what is so strange about a bunch of in-state prospects all choosing to stay in-state to play for the local basketball power. (And no matter their success, IU hoops will always be a step ahead of Purdue for most local fans...and a staircase ahead of Butler.) As an outsider, I find it facinating, but IU basketball is like Alabama football - a proud tradition of success, but a near obsessive fan-base. The idea that a bunch of prospects want to stay in-state to help revitalize that is not unheard of by any means. It's not that much different, although greater in magnitude, than what Kevin O'Neill did when he first got to MU.
What about Hanner Perea, the 5* Colombian kid Adams brought to Bloomington, housed, clothed, fed and provided cash for trips home, laptops,etc? Did he grow up dreaming of being a Hoosier or was he delivered to IU by Adams? And how long will a "near obsessive" fanbase put up with epic failure? Funny things happen under that kind of pressure.
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Lennys I have no idea about Hanner Perea. I never claimed to. What I said was that it wasn't unheard of for Indiana kids to want to play IU - such as Cody Zeller and the other Indiana kids that play for Indiana Elite.
And believe me, if Crean hadn't gotten Zeller, and hadn't brought together the class (with or without Perea) that he is putting together in 2012, the fans would be up in arms. He has bought himself a couple more years now.
Look, I have no interest in IU basketball or Tom Crean. I have no agendas or connections with either. I am at least attempting to be reasonable here.
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Lennys I have no idea about Hanner Perea. I never claimed to. What I said was that it wasn't unheard of for Indiana kids to want to play IU - such as Cody Zeller and the other Indiana kids that play for Indiana Elite.
And believe me, if Crean hadn't gotten Zeller, and hadn't brought together the class (with or without Perea) that he is putting together in 2012, the fans would be up in arms. He has bought himself a couple more years now.
Look, I have no interest in IU basketball or Tom Crean. I have no agendas or connections with either. I am at least attempting to be reasonable here.
I think you're being absolutely reasonable.
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Or maybe even a reference about how Buzz Williams married his wife for nefarious reasons, eh PRN? That was a new low blow, even for you.
Was it lower than when I said I hoped Crean gets involved in a sexual scandal with one of his own players? Because I remember saying that and I still hope it happens.
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has @CoachTomCrean made a statement about this yet?
I miss him
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I have read the articles...and have have read the strings and have sat back and laughed as a certain poster holds onto opinions as stone hard facts. The hypocrisy is truly pathetic. It is amazing that poster that feels such ill will to towards a university and/or coach that he would waste so much time and energy on said univerities fan forum. To say Buzz makes him squirm and then to defend this whole situation is simply the icing on the cake with this poster, truly sad.
My back ground gives me some insight into the whole deal.
One fact that seems to get dropped as immaterial by defenders in this whole discussion is Adams(the father) is an Indiana Alum and Booster. Simple question...how many MU alum posters on this board if you son worked for MArquette Basketball ( or even if he did not or if you did not have a son invlolved) and if you coached and ran an AAU program would not be "pushing" MU to those kids?
Pretty dumb question really. As is any defense of the guy...dumb.
One "fact" that has been stated that is completely untrue. Bloomington Red of the 80's and 90's is not Indiana Elite. Indiana Elite is less than 10 years old if my memory serves me.
I am not arguing Indiana kids dont want to go to IU they always have, that is why IU has always been good. But to argue that Jurkin, Perea, Ajou, and others along with the Indiana kids were not heavy encouraged and enticed to go to IU by a booster and father of a employee is again ludicrous.
I have a son that attends Culver Military, I have another son that played for Indiana Elite, I know all the parties involved, I have coached AAU for years. But what do I know?
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In honor of Chicos' "Return from Elba", here is an update on this situation. Jurkin and Perea still not cleared by the NCAA and Perea looks doubtful any time soon by the looks of it. Maybe this helps explain why CTC is oversigned by two working on three for 2013?
http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/66390/will-indianas-freshman-forwards-be-eligible
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(http://www.insidethehall.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/IUIWUITH0019-2.jpg)
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Coach Tom Crean sure has 'em workin' hard on positionin'.