MUScoop

Let me preface this by saying this message is only directed toward a small group of fans.  Not everyone.

Buzz Williams is on the verge of taking his FIRST Marquette team to the NCAA tournament and people on here are giving him directions to Arkansas.  Others say the season is over and they wont go to a NIT game if thats where we end up. 

We finished tied with UCONN and Villanova in Big East play: teams with established coaches in Wright and Calhoun and more talented players.  I think we can agree it would be stupid for these teams to dump their established coaches, but people here want to dump Buzz with a team of all of his players for the first time? Reality check people: even the best teams in college basketball don't make the tournament every year.  Syracuse, UCONN, North Carolina, Arizona, and others all missed the tournament recently.  Should they have fired their coaches?

If we were to end up in the NIT, some of you won't go to the games because that's beneath you?  I've seen tons of threads saying the team doesn't have heart.  Well it seems to me some of you people gave up on this team and nothing says that more than refusing to go to a NIT game. 

What the hell kind of fans are you?

Exactly.  Well said.  I've been thinking about a lot of the same points all year, and it's true.  Greedy fans expecting a lot.

Quote from: TallTitan34 on March 05, 2011, 08:39:34 PM
Let me preface this by saying this message is only directed toward a small group of fans.  Not everyone.

Buzz Williams is on the verge of taking his FIRST Marquette team to the NCAA tournament and people on here are giving him directions to Arkansas.  Others say the season is over and they wont go to a NIT game if thats where we end up. 

We finished tied with UCONN and Villanova in Big East play: teams with established coaches in Wright and Calhoun and more talented players.  I think we can agree it would be stupid for these teams to dump their established coaches, but people here want to dump Buzz with a team of all of his players for the first time? Reality check people: even the best teams in college basketball don't make the tournament every year.  Syracuse, UCONN, North Carolina, Arizona, and others all missed the tournament recently.  Should they have fired their coaches?

If we were to end up in the NIT, some of you won't go to the games because that's beneath you?  I've seen tons of threads saying the team doesn't have heart.  Well it seems to me some of you people gave up on this team and nothing says that more than refusing to go to a NIT game. 

What the hell kind of fans are you?

An extremely passionate one thank you very much! Perhaps you are satisfied with mediocrity. I frankly am not. I want MU to be one of those perennial NCAA teams. Uw has been, no damn reason MU can't be either. I'm not on the fire buzz bandwagon, but something wasn't right with this team this year, and he didn't seemingly do anything to try to fix it either. Everyone is responsible for this craptacular season.

An extremely passionate one thank you very much! Perhaps you are satisfied with mediocrity. I frankly am not. I want MU to be one of those perennial NCAA teams. Uw has been, no damn reason MU can't be either. I'm not on the fire buzz bandwagon, but something wasn't right with this team this year, and he didn't seemingly do anything to try to fix it either. Everyone is responsible for this craptacular season.


AGREE 1000%

Some kids play sports just to get the juice box and dinosaur snacks after the game.  To some, winning is the only thing that matters!

Quote from: Jamil_toMU10 on March 05, 2011, 08:42:23 PM
Exactly.  Well said.  I've been thinking about a lot of the same points all year, and it's true.  Greedy fans expecting a lot.

Years ago Hank Raymonds made a statement about our previous coach.  He said:

"It looks like the cycle from some years ago is repeating," Raymonds said.

"It's back; he's created a monster."


With success comes changing expectations, right or wrong, that's what happens.  People got down on TC at the end of his tenure because he wasn't taking the "next step" or equaling another Final Four (oh, and because some folks didn't like him).  Fair or unfair, that's how fans are.  This is Buzz's first year with his players, but a lot of fans who were concerned about hiring someone so green to coach MU in the Big East are going to question some of the results.  Comes with the territory, especially when you take a risky gamble on a hire.

Hopefully it all works out.  MU still has a good shot to get into the tournament.  What's been frustrating this year is the inconsistency, the substitutions, what seems to be lack of intensity at times, and overall play that makes you scratch your head in the basketball IQ department.  Let's all hope that do to inexperience, but never underestimate the expectations that some folks have after going to the NCAA 5 straight years.

Quote from: muguru on March 05, 2011, 08:46:57 PM
An extremely passionate one thank you very much! Perhaps you are satisfied with mediocrity. I frankly am not. I want MU to be one of those perennial NCAA teams. Uw has been, no damn reason MU can't be either. I'm not on the fire buzz bandwagon, but something wasn't right with this team this year, and he didn't seemingly do anything to try to fix it either. Everyone is responsible for this craptacular season.

The whole season hasn't been craptacular, but the ending most certainly was.

And if MU ends the season as a worse team than the one that began, then Buzz will deserve every barb directed his way.  

Is anyone on MU improving?

Please enter reality and realize YOU CAN'T MAKE THE NCAA TOURNAMENT EVERY YEAR.  The top schools in the country can't even do that yet you want Marquette too?

A lot of people predicted 9-9 for this team. Won some good ones, lost some bad ones, pretty much ended up where we all reasonably thought we would.

Tied with UCONN and NOVA, that should put everything in perspective as to how tough this year is in the BE...

Proud of the team this year, wished for better record, but we're still in the discussion, so let's quit whining and go win 2 in NYC.

Quote from: TallTitan34 on March 05, 2011, 08:52:58 PM
Please enter reality and realize YOU CAN'T MAKE THE NCAA TOURNAMENT EVERY YEAR.  The top schools in the country can't even do that yet you want Marquette too?

Doesn't help when 75 miles to the west, a school that didn't go to the NCAA tournament for 54 straight years is about to go to the NCAAs for their 13th straight year and could get a #2 seed if they win tomorrow....this for a team that is "SLOW AND WHITE"...right Another84?   13 straight years, that might as well "NCAA tournament every year"

Please enter reality and realize YOU CAN'T MAKE THE NCAA TOURNAMENT EVERY YEAR.  The top schools in the country can't even do that yet you want Marquette too?

Yeah, your right, your probably right.  We're all dumb for having expectations.  I mean trying to get two wins against less than sub-par teams (compared to marquette) shouldn't be that hard.  But your right!

Quote from: TallTitan34 on March 05, 2011, 08:52:58 PM
Please enter reality and realize YOU CAN'T MAKE THE NCAA TOURNAMENT EVERY YEAR.  The top schools in the country can't even do that yet you want Marquette too?

That doesn't change the outcome of the Louisville game.
That doesn't excuse the 2nd half leads that were blown.
That doesn't exonerate the head coach - who is richly paid - and his assistants from creating and adjusting defensive schemes that effectively work.

WE KNOW THAT which you so purposefully placed in caps.

It's the unsavory taste of seeing a team beat a ranked opponent away then flounder in their last two, when you know they can win those games, that sucks the most.

Quote from: willie wampum on March 05, 2011, 08:52:07 PM
The whole season hasn't been craptacular, but the ending most certainly was.

And if MU ends the season as a worse team than the one that began, then Buzz will deserve every barb directed his way.  

Is anyone on MU improving?

Otule has developed a lot over the last few months, as has Cadougan.  Some of the guys who needed to be the cornerstone of this team (DJO, Buycks, Crowder) all seem to take turns disappearing for minutes/halves/games at a time.  Makes it hard on a team when you never seem to know who the go to guy is for any given game/situation.

Certainly a disappointing end to the season, especially after the UConn win.  It seems some/many here got caught up in the fact that Marquette has always had double digit wins in the BE, and though we should always be there.  I admit, I thought we would this year too.  But alas, it didn't happen.

The way the regular season ended was disappointing.  Still a chance in the post-season, though I have to say the guys aren't giving me a lot of confidence.   As much as others want to blame Buzz, I still like him, and believe a lot of the losses this year are on the players. In every game they had a chance to execute, and didn't.  Yes, perhaps Buzz could have had a better plan, or taught some things better in practice, but for the most part he did OK.  He's still a great recruiter, and I think a decent coach.

Also - I'd like to point out to those that think he isn't integrating HS players well, that Cadougan, Otule, Blue, Garner, Erik Williams, and Jones all played a number of minutes today, and made significant contributions to the team.  76 minuted for non-jucos today.  It wasn't enough to win, but showed promise that they are all developing as players.

That's my rant, and I'm sticking to it.

Quote from: g0lden3agle on March 05, 2011, 09:07:00 PM
Otule has developed a lot over the last few months, as has Cadougan.  Some of the guys who needed to be the cornerstone of this team (DJO, Buycks, Crowder) all seem to take turns disappearing for minutes/halves/games at a time.  Makes it hard on a team when you never seem to know who the go to guy is for any given game/situation.

I've been a Cadougan backer, but the more I see him play, the less sure I am that he's a good enough ball handler to be the starting PG next year.

We finished tied with UCONN and Villanova in Big East play: teams with established coaches in Wright and Calhoun and more talented players.


Great - we are happy to tie for 11th because UConn and Villanova finished there too...

Quote from: madtownwarrior on March 05, 2011, 09:13:30 PM
Great - we are happy to tie for 11th because UConn and Villanova finished there too...

Not happy.  But proof that talented players, and proven coaches doesn't mean that you automatically end up at the top of the BE.  If it can happen to them, it can happen to us, and it doesn't mean anything is "wrong".  Except, we lost too many games of course.

Quote from: willie wampum on March 05, 2011, 09:12:15 PM
I've been a Cadougan backer, but the more I see him play, the less sure I am that he's a good enough ball handler to be the starting PG next year.

His ability to distribute the ball to the right places at the right time in such a way that it leads to rhythm shots has really started to present itself recently.  If he can gain some confidence with his handle he will be a nice little piece for a couple years.

Quote from: rocky_warrior on March 05, 2011, 09:12:05 PM
Certainly a disappointing end to the season, especially after the UConn win.  It seems some/many here got caught up in the fact that Marquette has always had double digit wins in the BE, and though we should always be there.  I admit, I thought we would this year too.  But alas, it didn't happen.

The way the regular season ended was disappointing.  Still a chance in the post-season, though I have to say the guys aren't giving me a lot of confidence.   As much as others want to blame Buzz, I still like him, and believe a lot of the losses this year are on the players. In every game they had a chance to execute, and didn't.  Yes, perhaps Buzz could have had a better plan, or taught some things better in practice, but for the most part he did OK.  He's still a great recruiter, and I think a decent coach.

Also - I'd like to point out to those that think he isn't integrating HS players well, that Cadougan, Otule, Blue, Garner, Erik Williams, and Jones all played a number of minutes today, and made significant contributions to the team.  76 minuted for non-jucos today.  It wasn't enough to win, but showed promise that they are all developing as players.

That's my rant, and I'm sticking to it.

Agree with everything you say here rocky.

Quote from: madtownwarrior on March 05, 2011, 09:13:30 PM
We finished tied with UCONN and Villanova in Big East play: teams with established coaches in Wright and Calhoun and more talented players.


Great - we are happy to tie for 11th because UConn and Villanova finished there too...

EXACTLY!!! I don't get that people try to use that excuse with everything...."well every team struggles on the road", or..."even the best teams lose at home sometimes, and now this one??

What people fail to realize is I personally(and I am sure many others don't either) could care less what other teams do. I care about what Marquette does. I hold them to higher standards than I do anyone else. So just because Nova and UCONN finished 9-9, does NOT excuse MU finishing 9-9 IMO.

Those "other" two 9-9 teams are also going ot be playing in the NCAAs next weekend. MU likely won't be.

It is good to have expectations but they have to be realistic.

I find it hard to be happy with the direction this program is heading.  We've been, at best, a first weekend of the NCAA Tournament out since 2003.  There is nothing that leads me to believe that we are close to anything better this year.  This program has been running in place for a long time.  

Quote from: muguru on March 05, 2011, 09:19:54 PM
Those "other" two 9-9 teams are also going ot be playing in the NCAAs next weekend. MU likely won't be.

One of those 9-9 teams missed the tournament last year with far better talent than we have and a hall of fame coach.

Quote from: TallTitan34 on March 05, 2011, 09:27:24 PM
One of those 9-9 teams missed the tournament last year with far better talent than we have and a hall of fame coach.

You apparently didn't read what I just said......I DON'T CARE ABOUT WHAT UCONN OR NOVA OR ANYONE ELSE DOES. Just because they missed the NCAAs last year does not in any way excuse MU missing it this year IMO. I'm glad they missed it....they are not Marquette.

Quote from: madtownwarrior on March 05, 2011, 09:13:30 PM
We finished tied with UCONN and Villanova in Big East play: teams with established coaches in Wright and Calhoun and more talented players.

Stunningly, this likely means that UConn and Villanova aren't very good either?  

Quote from: hdog1017 on March 05, 2011, 09:26:02 PM
I find it hard to be happy with the direction this program is heading.  We've been, at best, a first weekend of the NCAA Tournament out since 2003.  There is nothing that leads me to believe that we are close to anything better this year.  This program has been running in place for a long time.  

Ding ding ding - a very average team at best since 2003...

and trending downward this year...

Quote from: madtownwarrior on March 05, 2011, 09:38:38 PM

Ding ding ding - a very average team at best since 2003...

and trending downward this year...

Disagree.  Two years ago that team was special, but the DJ injury was a killer.  The year prior when losing to Stanford was a fine team as well.  Both teams were in the top 5 in the Big East.  That's damn good.

Now, trending downward last year and this year...agree, but I wouldn't say that was the case in 2008 or 2009, far from it.

Quote from: Jblattner7 on March 05, 2011, 08:55:08 PM
A lot of people predicted 9-9 for this team.

Anyone find the thread with all the people thinking we'd go 9-9?  

This thread had 6 guesses for wins:
http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=21542.0

Wins: 11,10,10,13,12,11

On CS, the pool was: 10, 11, 13, 10, 13, 12, 11, and one 9.

Bottom line .. unless I'm missing a thread, very few people picked 9-9 as a prediction for this year, which would indicate most thought the team under-achieved.

I'm tired of the continued regression on this board to continually comparing every aspect of our program to UW.   They are two very different schools in very different conferences.    Buzz is in his 3rd year and to date I think he has exceeded expectations when he got the job.   This year has been disappointing in many respects but it may just be one of those years.  To think the program is "trending down" or "trending up" at this point in time is somewhat fruitless as the jury is still out.  Give him another year or two with his recruits (which I would say the recruitment is encouraging) and then the evaluation can be a little more valid and appropriate.

In the meantime, if I read another topic on "our neighbors to the west", I may vomit.   It is not out of envy, I respect their program....it is out of seeing the same tired agendas on an MU fan board.

1 prediction on this board for 9 wins?  The rest were higher?

If that is true, the honest person, myself included,would have say this season has been a disappointment.

Quote from: murobrob on March 05, 2011, 09:52:34 PM
In the meantime, if I read another topic on "our neighbors to the west", I may vomit.   It is not out of envy, I respect their program....it is out of seeing the same tired agendas on an MU fan board.

What agenda....don't you want to beat our rivals?  Don't you want to be better than our rivals?  My God, maybe I'm just from a different world.  No way in hell would your viewpoint stand here in L.A. with UCLA USC, or Cal Stanford, or Kentucky Louisville.  You care deeply about your rival and you want to beat their brains in.  The comparisons are always valid and there is no agenda at all.  It's called  a #$#ing rivalry!!! 

Quote from: Jamil_toMU10 on March 05, 2011, 08:42:23 PM
Exactly.  Well said.  I've been thinking about a lot of the same points all year, and it's true.  Greedy fans expecting a lot.

Just a question. Is regressing each year under Buzz and a person being very frustrated about make a person a greedy fan? What is your definition of a greedy fan? If you are using the criteria of not getting excited about an NIT bid, then I do not get it.

Quote from: JDuquaine on March 05, 2011, 08:50:01 PM
An extremely passionate one thank you very much! Perhaps you are satisfied with mediocrity. I frankly am not. I want MU to be one of those perennial NCAA teams. Uw has been, no damn reason MU can't be either. I'm not on the fire buzz bandwagon, but something wasn't right with this team this year, and he didn't seemingly do anything to try to fix it either. Everyone is responsible for this craptacular season.


AGREE 1000%

Some kids play sports just to get the juice box and dinosaur snacks after the game.  To some, winning is the only thing that matters!

Agree also. Tired of the excuses, tired of the In Buzz we Trust psychobabble, tired of regressing, tired of the mediocrity, tired of folding during the strtch drive. I want this team to compete for BEast titles---not end up 11th of 16 teams.

Sorry "dude"....I did live in the L.A. area for about 10 years....if you think that Marquette v. UW is anything close to UCLA/USC or CAl/Stanford in terms of a rivalry...you are either  smokin' some great Venice Beach herb or seriously delusional....or live on the JSONline sports comments section.  Most people outside of the state of Wisconsin could care less what UW does or does not do on the recruitment trail, in games against other teams, or how they view our basketball program at Marquette.  

Funny how you immediately respond to the comment about agendas...I did not mention you.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 05, 2011, 08:56:11 PM
Doesn't help when 75 miles to the west, a school that didn't go to the NCAA tournament for 54 straight years is about to go to the NCAAs for their 13th straight year and could get a #2 seed if they win tomorrow....this for a team that is "SLOW AND WHITE"...right Another84?   13 straight years, that might as well "NCAA tournament every year"

And the majority on this board think we have a better program than UW.

Quote from: TallTitan34 on March 05, 2011, 09:27:24 PM
One of those 9-9 teams missed the tournament last year with far better talent than we have and a hall of fame coach.

Excuses.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 05, 2011, 09:43:13 PM
Disagree.  Two years ago that team was special, but the DJ injury was a killer.  The year prior when losing to Stanford was a fine team as well.  Both teams were in the top 5 in the Big East.  That's damn good.

Now, trending downward last year and this year...agree, but I wouldn't say that was the case in 2008 or 2009, far from it.

But you would agree that we are trending downward under Buzz's leadership?

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 05, 2011, 08:56:11 PM
Doesn't help when 75 miles to the west, a school that didn't go to the NCAA tournament for 54 straight years is about to go to the NCAAs for their 13th straight year and could get a #2 seed if they win tomorrow....this for a team that is "SLOW AND WHITE"...right Another84?   13 straight years, that might as well "NCAA tournament every year"

Who gives a crap? Your obsession with all things Wisconsin is ridiculous. The only reason you use UW as our yardstick is because for the time being and in the recent past we come up short against them. It's hilarious how you want to hold us to the "Wiscosin number of transfers" standard (rather than say, the Indiana or UNC standard) because you think it makes us look bad. I know you're giddy as a schoolgirl over our bad loss tonight, but why not take it over to Badger Nation for your celebration.

and those other 9 - 9 teams have had much better recent BEast conferences finishes and NCAA tourney performances...

Quote from: willie warrior on March 05, 2011, 10:08:09 PM
Excuses.

Quote from: willie warrior on March 05, 2011, 10:05:34 PM
And the majority on this board think we have a better program than UW.

All time, we do, but the gap is narrowing.  Since the next century started, we clearly don't.  That's frustrating, especially considering they went a HALF A CENTURY of sucking ass and in almost no time blew by us.  Here's the really scary part, as much as people bitch about the previous dude, imagine how much bigger the gap would have been since the 2000's has been our best decade in 30 years.  We're lucky we are in striking distance, quite frankly.

And this idea that big, bad, scary Bucky is different and we can't compete or measure up attitude that some have...holy Christ, what has gotten into some of you.  They are a rival....we should be excited to go beat their arses every day and twice on Sunday.

At least the women's basketball, women's soccer (twice), and men's soccer got the memo this year.

Quote from: willie warrior on March 05, 2011, 10:09:33 PM
But you would agree that we are trending downward under Buzz's leadership?

I wouldn't.  People forget that there were a number of NIT appearances and post season shut outs under Crean.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 05, 2011, 10:11:56 PM
All time, we do, but the gap is narrowing.  Since the next century started, we clearly don't.  That's frustrating, especially considering they went a HALF A CENTURY of sucking ass and in almost no time blew by us. 

$$$$$$$$$$$.   That's what it is.  Lots of cash, which resulted in better facilities, and a couple of very smart hiring decisions.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 05, 2011, 10:11:56 PM
All time, we do, but the gap is narrowing.  Since the next century started, we clearly don't.  That's frustrating, especially considering they went a HALF A CENTURY of sucking ass and in almost no time blew by us.  Here's the really scary part, as much as people bitch about the previous dude, imagine how much bigger the gap would have been since the 2000's has been our best decade in 30 years.  We're lucky we are in striking distance, quite frankly.

And this idea that big, bad, scary Bucky is different and we can't compete or measure up attitude that some have...holy Christ, what has gotten into some of you.  They are a rival....we should be excited to go beat their arses every day and twice on Sunday.

At least the women's basketball, women's soccer (twice), and men's soccer got the memo this year.

Who says we don't want to beat the snot out of them?   And to infer from comments that somehow by not holding tribute to them on this board constantly is somehow admitting they are big and bad and we can not compete with them is just plain silly.  What has gotten in to many of us is Bucky-fatigue...pure and simple.  It is fueled enough by obnoxious badger fans....I wish it could stop being fed by "MU fans"

Quote from: murobrob on March 05, 2011, 10:16:42 PM
Who says we don't want to beat the snot out of them?   And to infer from comments that somehow by not holding tribute to them on this board constantly is somehow admitting they are big and bad and we can not compete with them is just plain silly.  What has gotten in to many of us is Bucky-fatigue...pure and simple.  It is fueled enough by obnoxious badger fans....I wish it could stop being fed by "MU fans"

How dare you question the fandom of Chicos..he traveled all the way across the country to be at an MU game earlier this season, and has a living room full of MU memorabilia.

That said, I get it, in that his post count goes up significantly after MU losses.  He's all over this board tonight.  Purely  coincidental.

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on March 05, 2011, 10:15:10 PM

$$$$$$$$$$$.   That's what it is.  Lots of cash, which resulted in better facilities, and a couple of very smart hiring decisions.

Certainly part of it, but MU spends a crap load of money on basketball. The Al is a beautiful facility...I keep reading that playing in a NBA arena is wonderful because it allows players to interact with NBA players...so I don't buy the facilities part.

You hit it on the head with the hiring decisions.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 05, 2011, 10:11:56 PM


And this idea that big, bad, scary Bucky is different and we can't compete or measure up attitude that some have...holy Christ, what has gotten into some of you.  They are a rival....we should be excited to go beat their arses every day and twice on Sunday.

Please name ONE (1) person on this board who has put forth the proposition that "big, bad, scary Bucky" is a team that  we can't "compete" with or "measure up" to. They are a rival and we should be excited to beat them that Saturday we play them each December.

You're the one obsessed with their recent excellence. You're the one who thinks that any success for them somehow results in our failure. The fact that most here aren't as crazy and illogical as you doesn't mean that something odd "has gotten into" us, but into you.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 05, 2011, 10:09:41 PM
Who gives a crap? Your obsession with all things Wisconsin is ridiculous. The only reason you use UW as our yardstick is because for the time being and in the recent past we come up short against them. It's hilarious how you want to hold us to the "Wiscosin number of transfers" standard (rather than say, the Indiana or UNC standard) because you think it makes us look bad. I know you're giddy as a schoolgirl over our bad loss tonight, but why not take it over to Badger Nation for your celebration.

UNC and IU are our rivals?  They're in our state?  Weird.  We are compared to them (UW-madison) by fans in the state of Wisconsin and the media...I don't think we are compared to IU or UNC by the "vast majority" (I love how you coined that term..you should trademark it) of fans in the state of Wisconsin sans a few obsessed folks like you and ners and CD who believe that everything happens in Bloomington is germane to MU?  I need to get myself a new map, apparently.  This just in...MU and UW-madison are basketball rivals and that's why people compare the two programs.  UCLA and USC, Kentucky and Louisville, Cal and Stanford...no obsession at all, it's simple REALITY of how things work in rivalries.

Get a new map

http://www.youtube.com/v/TgvyparsP0c

Chicos - I challenge you to go 1 week without bringing up Wisconsin or mentioning Wisconsin, Bo Ryan, etc in any of your posts, even in response to someone else who mentions Bucky. We can then see if MU fans really do constantly harp about Wisconsin basketball or if it's merely that there's one poster who continuously brings them up.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on March 05, 2011, 10:53:47 PM
Chicos - I challenge you to go 1 week without bringing up Wisconsin or mentioning Wisconsin, Bo Ryan, etc in any of your posts, even in response to someone else who mentions Bucky. We can then see if MU fans really do constantly harp about Wisconsin basketball or if it's merely that there's one poster who continuously brings them up.

Are you kidding me....go to the JS site right now and look at all the UW fans interacting with the MU fans....you think that doesn't happen in a rivalry?  Of course it does.  You think that's just one fan?  It looks like way more than one fan.  Looks like a ton of UW fans.  You think if MU doesn't get into the NCAA tournament that UW fans won't be saying anything to their MU office mates at work...hell, do you think UWM fans won't if they get in?  You are out of your mind if you don't think so. 

Maybe that's the problem here, maybe I'm the only one that gives a crap about beating that program.  Sure seems like it.

Quote from: TallTitan34 on March 05, 2011, 08:39:34 PM
Let me preface this by saying this message is only directed toward a small group of fans.  Not everyone.

Buzz Williams is on the verge of taking his FIRST Marquette team to the NCAA tournament and people on here are giving him directions to Arkansas.  Others say the season is over and they wont go to a NIT game if thats where we end up.  

We finished tied with UCONN and Villanova in Big East play: teams with established coaches in Wright and Calhoun and more talented players.  I think we can agree it would be stupid for these teams to dump their established coaches, but people here want to dump Buzz with a team of all of his players for the first time? Reality check people: even the best teams in college basketball don't make the tournament every year.  Syracuse, UCONN, North Carolina, Arizona, and others all missed the tournament recently.  Should they have fired their coaches?

If we were to end up in the NIT, some of you won't go to the games because that's beneath you?  I've seen tons of threads saying the team doesn't have heart.  Well it seems to me some of you people gave up on this team and nothing says that more than refusing to go to a NIT game.  

What the hell kind of fans are you?

Well said, Titan. The basketball ignorance of far too many posters on here is coming closer and closer to completely ruining this board.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 05, 2011, 10:56:22 PM
Are you kidding me....go to the JS site right now and look at all the UW fans interacting with the MU fans....you think that doesn't happen in a rivalry?  Of course it does.  You think that's just one fan?  It looks like way more than one fan.  Looks like a ton of UW fans.  You think if MU doesn't get into the NCAA tournament that UW fans won't be saying anything to their MU office mates at work...hell, do you think UWM fans won't if they get in?  You are out of your mind if you don't think so. 

Maybe that's the problem here, maybe I'm the only one that gives a crap about beating that program.  Sure seems like it.

This isn't the JS site and this isn't someone's office. I'm asking you not to post about Wisconsin on THIS board just as an experiment.

Maybe the problem is that you care far too much about beating the Wisconsin program. Even the dumbest of MU fans knows that winning in the Big East and advancing deep into the NCAA Tournament is light years ahead of beating the Wisconsin program. If MU never beats Wisconsin again and constantly loses in-state recruits to Wisconsin but wins Big East titles and makes runs at the National Championship, I'd be 100% satisfied...but I have a feeling that you wouldn't be. Your obsession with Wisconsin basketball is bizarre.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on March 05, 2011, 11:04:25 PM
This isn't the JS site and this isn't someone's office. I'm asking you not to post about Wisconsin on THIS board just as an experiment.

Maybe the problem is that you care far too much about beating the Wisconsin program. Even the dumbest of MU fans knows that winning in the Big East and advancing deep into the NCAA Tournament is light years ahead of beating the Wisconsin program. If MU never beats Wisconsin again and constantly loses in-state recruits to Wisconsin but wins Big East titles and makes runs at the National Championship, I'd be 100% satisfied...but I have a feeling that you wouldn't be. Your obsession with Wisconsin basketball is bizarre.

I'd take that trade as well...let me know when we are winning those Big East titles and making runs at the national championship...haven't seen it sans Crean's Final Four year.  Now, in those years when neither of those things are happening, I'd like to beat our arch rival.  I don't find that bizarre, but rather a key attribute to a rivalry...you know...wanting to beat them.  Crazy, I know.

Go to the Scout board...it's wonderful over there. 

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 05, 2011, 11:09:21 PM
I'd take that trade as well...let me know when we are winning those Big East titles and making runs at the national championship...haven't seen it sans Crean's Final Four year.  Now, in those years when neither of those things are happening, I'd like to beat our arch rival.  I don't find that bizarre, but rather a key attribute to a rivalry...you know...wanting to beat them.  Crazy, I know.

Go to the Scout board...it's wonderful over there. 

Wanting to beat a non-conference rival makes sense. No one is arguing that. However, MU hasn't played Wisconsin in 3 months yet you seemingly bring them up every day on here. Move on! In the meantime, MU has played Big East rivals Notre Dame, DePaul, Louisville and Cincinnati. Winning those games, as well as the rest of the conference games, is far more important than beating Wisconsin. In fact, tonight's game against Seton Hall was far more crushing than the loss to Wisconsin.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 05, 2011, 10:56:22 PM
 

Maybe that's the problem here, maybe I'm the only one that gives a crap about beating that program.  Sure seems like it.

That's not the problem here. You are not the only one here who cares about beating UW. Everyone on this board cares about beating UW. You are, though, the only one here with the stones to suggest that constantly ripping your own team and using your rival's success to do it makes you superfan. It does make you something, just not the only one who gives a crap.

Quote from: JDuquaine on March 05, 2011, 08:58:43 PM
Please enter reality and realize YOU CAN'T MAKE THE NCAA TOURNAMENT EVERY YEAR.  The top schools in the country can't even do that yet you want Marquette too?

Yeah, your right, your probably right.  We're all dumb for having expectations.  I mean trying to get two wins against less than sub-par teams (compared to marquette) shouldn't be that hard.  But your right!

Why does UW success matter?  Why not compare us to Northwestern?  Evanston is closer to Milwaukee than Madison.

Chicos, KenPom has UW ranked last out of 345 teams for tempo this year.  IF that is not the definition of slow, what is?

Quote from: muguru on March 05, 2011, 08:46:57 PM
An extremely passionate one thank you very much! Perhaps you are satisfied with mediocrity. I frankly am not. I want MU to be one of those perennial NCAA teams. Uw has been, no damn reason MU can't be either. I'm not on the fire buzz bandwagon, but something wasn't right with this team this year, and he didn't seemingly do anything to try to fix it either. Everyone is responsible for this craptacular season.

guru-you are my hero-"something wasn't right with this team this year" has been my feelings too... although i can't quite put my finger on it, but the players just seem to be playing scared/afraid to make a mistake.  when i say mistake, i mean something difficult to point out from a fans perspective, but from buzz' perspective.  ok ok nothing wrong with high expectations from your payers, but demanding your player be at a certain point on the floor at a certain time all the time, a shot without a paint touch, great practices all week, doing everything right, then one thing wrong...i don't know, but like the players sense a certain unfairness of how the buzz hierarchy works on some of his guys and not others

Quote from: TallTitan34 on March 05, 2011, 08:39:34 PM
Let me preface this by saying this message is only directed toward a small group of fans.  Not everyone.

Buzz Williams is on the verge of taking his FIRST Marquette team to the NCAA tournament and people on here are giving him directions to Arkansas.  Others say the season is over and they wont go to a NIT game if thats where we end up. 

We finished tied with UCONN and Villanova in Big East play: teams with established coaches in Wright and Calhoun and more talented players.  I think we can agree it would be stupid for these teams to dump their established coaches, but people here want to dump Buzz with a team of all of his players for the first time? Reality check people: even the best teams in college basketball don't make the tournament every year.  Syracuse, UCONN, North Carolina, Arizona, and others all missed the tournament recently.  Should they have fired their coaches?

If we were to end up in the NIT, some of you won't go to the games because that's beneath you?  I've seen tons of threads saying the team doesn't have heart.  Well it seems to me some of you people gave up on this team and nothing says that more than refusing to go to a NIT game. 

What the hell kind of fans are you?

+100000

I read a few threads following the game and was astonished at what was being said.  I've been rough on the team/coaches, but some of the things said here were over the top.

I still look forward to watching them in action in the BET.  Lets get past the last two games and do some damage.  We know they are capable.

pardon my belatednes, but that juice box, dinosaur cracker analogy is tits ;D

Quote from: AnotherMU84 on March 06, 2011, 06:31:32 AM
Why does UW success matter?  Why not compare us to Northwestern?  Evanston is closer to Milwaukee than Madison.

Chicos, KenPom has UW ranked last out of 345 teams for tempo this year.  IF that is not the definition of slow, what is?

Do they also rank based on skin color...you mentioned they were white...I'm not sure why that matters.  Let me know if Ken Pom has a skin color ranking. Also, where does Ken Pom have them ranked over all.

Finally, because Northwestern isn't a rival, that's why.  We've played Northwestern probably 30 times.  Wisconsin...over 100 times.


Jesus, I feel like I'm in a altered state of reality with some of you people.  It seems to me that they were always our number one rival but now that they are the best team in the state, SOME of you guys are running away from that reality.  Why?  Well, it sure looks like its because they are having a better fo of it.  Me...it pisses me off.  In our company we compare ourselves daily to the competition and our rivals so we know how to kick their ass.  When I was with the Angels and Ducks, we compared ourselves daily to the competition and our rivals...it was called the Standings. 

Rest assured, as soon as UW-madison loses in the NCAA tournament a bunch of folks here will be jumping for joy (me included)...so we only treat them as a rival when they lose but when they're doing well, we should compare ourselves to Northwestern?  Holy crap....please shoot me now.

Forgive me if it looks like some of you don't want to compare ourselves to our BIGGEST RIVAL because we haven't done as well against them of late.  I say nonsense.  Get pissed off, we should compare ourselves every day and start doing better than those clowns.  I swear some of you seem to be from the give everybody a trophy club.  No thanks.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 05, 2011, 11:32:28 PM
That's not the problem here. You are not the only one here who cares about beating UW. Everyone on this board cares about beating UW. You are, though, the only one here with the stones to suggest that constantly ripping your own team and using your rival's success to do it makes you superfan. It does make you something, just not the only one who gives a crap.

Apparently not...we should be comparing ourselves to Northwestern or maybe Chicago State...they're closer you know.  Maybe Cardinal Strich.  

Constantly ripping my team...hardly.  Constructive criticism...you bet.  I believe this team is going to the NCAAs (if we beat PC), not sure how that's constantly ripping on MU. If you want to aspire to be better, you lock in on those that are better and try to see what makes them tick, how they got there.  It's this way in life, business, sports, etc.  I'm sorry that rubs you the wrong way.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 06, 2011, 10:49:17 AM

Jesus, I feel like I'm in a altered state of reality with some of you people. 

We feel the same way.  You most definitely are in an altered state of reality.

Quote from: TallTitan34 on March 05, 2011, 08:39:34 PM
Let me preface this by saying this message is only directed toward a small group of fans.  Not everyone.

Buzz Williams is on the verge of taking his FIRST Marquette team to the NCAA tournament and people on here are giving him directions to Arkansas.  Others say the season is over and they wont go to a NIT game if thats where we end up. 

We finished tied with UCONN and Villanova in Big East play: teams with established coaches in Wright and Calhoun and more talented players.  I think we can agree it would be stupid for these teams to dump their established coaches, but people here want to dump Buzz with a team of all of his players for the first time? Reality check people: even the best teams in college basketball don't make the tournament every year.  Syracuse, UCONN, North Carolina, Arizona, and others all missed the tournament recently.  Should they have fired their coaches?

If we were to end up in the NIT, some of you won't go to the games because that's beneath you?  I've seen tons of threads saying the team doesn't have heart.  Well it seems to me some of you people gave up on this team and nothing says that more than refusing to go to a NIT game. 

What the hell kind of fans are you?

This might be my favorite post of the year!  My college basketball viewing career continues for two more tournaments because of a great effort by these men.  A lot of negativity by just a few on this board, but I see a lot of good things.  I feel confident in one to two wins in the BET, and hope they make the NCAA.  If they earn an NIT instead, I see a championship to round out the season!

The future is not dim by any means.  I think JC is going to emerge as one of the top PGs in the BE.  CO is going to be a very solid center going forward.  Tremendous improvement in his first full season.  A lot of talent in between as well, with some solid talent coming in.

I loved finding this board so I could find out more info about MU than an occasional boxscore in the Sunday paper.  Naysayers need another cup of coffee, and begin to believe in their team (or go somewhere else, please!).

For those that like MU, remember that despite the naysayers, MU is an exceptional university that provides a solid foundation for life.  It has a great basketball program that will continue.  Take pride and enjoy every moment!

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 06, 2011, 10:51:44 AM
Apparently not...we should be comparing ourselves to Northwestern or maybe Chicago State...they're closer you know.  Maybe Cardinal Strich.  

How about teams that we play a lot ... ND, DePaul and Lousiville.  You always pick UW.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 06, 2011, 10:49:17 AM
Do they also rank based on skin color...you mentioned they were white...I'm not sure why that matters.  Let me know if Ken Pom has a skin color ranking. Also, where does Ken Pom have them ranked over all.

345 D1 teams ....

Adjusted Tempo rankings.

UW = 345
NW = 262
ND = 269

Tempo is the skin color rankings ... white teams are slow and slow is a boring style.

This board would be way better sans about 4-5 posters that I think 85% of the people on this board could identify...

I'm still at a loss at all the chest beating about how we shouldn't be comparing ourselves to UConn or Villanova.  If a traditional power hits a tailspin, sure you wouldn't want to compare to them indefinitely, but cmon.  Wait another 5 years when we get kicked out of the BEast and are in a conference with SLU. Then the notion that we shouldnt ever compare ourselves to UConn or take solace in the ups and downs of a power like Villanova will really be hilarious.

Quote from: AnotherMU84 on March 06, 2011, 12:17:07 PM
How about teams that we play a lot ... ND, DePaul and Lousiville.  You always pick UW.

Again, seriously.  I'm sorry Another84, but to get to the top of the mountain you have to aspire to be the best, not compare yourselves to #$#&ing DePaul.  I really don't get your rationale on this stuff at all.

Yes,  fortunately, we're doing wonderful against DePaul....except for last year head to head.   ;) 

Do you want to be the best team in the state of Wisconsin or not?

Quote from: AnotherMU84 on March 06, 2011, 12:20:41 PM
345 D1 teams ....

Adjusted Tempo rankings.

UW = 345
NW = 262
ND = 269

Tempo is the skin color rankings ... white teams are slow and slow is a boring style.

Wow, sounds a bit racist. (added because in Lenny's advanced aid he needs the visual age...TEAL = Sarcasm)  I'll bet more people care about WINNING than how good it looks.  I hate Wisconsin's style, but their results are very good....I don't care if they are Caucasian, Asian, African American or what have you.  

Is the goal to look pretty or is the goal to win?  

Quote from: Jam Chowder on March 06, 2011, 01:09:25 PM
This board would be way better sans about 4-5 posters that I think 85% of the people on this board could identify...

Use the ignore button

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 06, 2011, 01:43:13 PM
Wow, sounds a bit racist.  I'll bet more people care about WINNING than how good it looks.  I hate Wisconsin's style, but their results are very good....I don't care if they are Caucasian, Asian, African American or what have you. 

Is the goal to look pretty or is the goal to win? 

I dunno, I've thought about this a lot actually and I'm not sure what it would do to my fandom if we started playing, recruiting, etc like Wisco.  I've watched some of their games and it barely looks like basketball to me.  Its probably because they've played that way since I was at MU, and so I organically grew to associate that style with the team I hated most... but I dont ever want to rely on talking about the "smart decisions" my players make with the same air that athletes are often referred to as "well spoken"

Quote from: MUBurrow on March 06, 2011, 01:47:05 PM
I dunno, I've thought about this a lot actually and I'm not sure what it would do to my fandom if we started playing, recruiting, etc like Wisco.  I've watched some of their games and it barely looks like basketball to me.  Its probably because they've played that way since I was at MU, and so I organically grew to associate that style with the team I hated most... but I dont ever want to rely on talking about the "smart decisions" my players make with the same air that athletes are often referred to as "well spoken"

I thought they kept score to determine who won and lost.  I thought they have standings to determine what place teams are in.  If I wanted to judge my team by how pretty they looked or how aesthetically pleasing on the eyes, I would become a gymnastics or figure skating fan and throw up 9.8's from couch when the performances were over.

YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME.  I find nothing aesthetically pleasing watching teams score at will on us because our defense isn't there but we look "smooth" on offense and push the ball.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 06, 2011, 01:43:13 PM
Wow, sounds a bit racist.   
 

Wow. The guy who was apoplectic and went ballistic accusing others of calling him a racist (when they did no such thing) flat out calls someone else one. This should be good.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 06, 2011, 01:43:13 PM
Wow, sounds a bit racist.

Don't go naive in me.  Ask any college basketball fan what they think when you say the "Wiscsonsin" and they think "white and slow."

I just stated what ever knows.

The problem is by resorting to that cheap stereotype, you justify 'traditional', slurs against jucos, 'playground ball', etc.   You give cover to other, even more inapproprate, terms.   

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 06, 2011, 01:50:32 PM
I thought they kept score to determine who won and lost.  I thought they have standings to determine what place teams are in.  If I wanted to judge my team by how pretty they looked or how aesthetically pleasing on the eyes, I would become a gymnastics or figure skating fan and throw up 9.8's from couch when the performances were over.

YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME.  I find nothing aesthetically pleasing watching teams score at will on us because our defense isn't there but we look "smooth" on offense and push the ball.

I agree about winning, and I'm not arguing that I'm a better fan than anyone else or even a good fan.  But there's something about the style that Wisco and others (but prominently wisco) plays that really bothers me.  The standing on the top of the key for 25 seconds, the offensive standing around, the overall speed etc etc. Not trying to excuse my own bias, but theres a big difference between winning ugly/being pleasing on the eyes and recruiting to create an identity as a slow team.  MU has won plenty of ugly games over the years, filled with turnovers, bad FG %s, and just muscled games out. Wisco has created an identity to the point that players won't go there because of the style.  There's a difference between shortening individual games and standing up saying you are a slow team. Those things shouldn't be conflated.

That aside, if we were to assume a slow identity at a program level, I don't like to think about or admit if I would be less likely to be invested in the team as I am now.

Obviously many of us post without thinking from time to time. But, I think many on here have little idea exactly how important this is to the university. Athletics is a major part of any successful university. Many on here want to believe we are Harvard, Duke or ND academically but that is flat out wrong. We are a great school that has to earn everything we get. If this programs slips over upcoming years it will have a big negative affect on the school as a whole.

I actually love MU more than I love MU baskets. This is a business and it has to perform at high level every year. We gave the keys to an unproven coach and we cannot allow it to slip away. The BOT and AD are not basketball people and believe that because we want to be good/great it will automatically happen. Our leash has to be shorter than UW leash because we have no football backup.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 06, 2011, 01:53:16 PM
Wow. The guy who was apoplectic and went ballistic accusing others of calling him a racist (when they did no such thing) flat out calls someone else one. This should be good.

Yes they did...in fact several of the posts were deleted and edited as a result.  Unfortunately not all were.

Secondly, sorry if you didn't get my sarcasm...I'll put it bright teal for you.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 06, 2011, 02:29:52 PM
Yes they did...in fact several of the posts were deleted and edited as a result.  Unfortunately not all were.

Secondly, sorry if you didn't get my sarcasm...I'll put it bright teal for you.

Love your edit, but no teal and it was at the tail end of your original post. A guy with your lack of athletic ability should be careful when backpeddling. You're liable to trip over yourself.

Quote from: Goose on March 06, 2011, 02:22:18 PM

I actually love MU more than I love MU baskets. This is a business and it has to perform at high level every year. We gave the keys to an unproven coach and we cannot allow it to slip away. The BOT and AD are not basketball people and believe that because we want to be good/great it will automatically happen. Our leash has to be shorter than UW leash because we have no football backup.

Goose - Please just tell us what established, high major coach, you felt would leave his position to come coach MU?  We struck out on the best "high major/mid-major" coaches when Crean left:  Tony Bennett, Anthony Grant, Keno Davis, Sean Miller.

You realize after the coaching change/Big 3 left - the program basically had Lazar, Mo Acker and David Cubillan on the roster (and Pat Hazel).  That is 4 players out of a possible 13.  For Buzz to reload and have us NOT miss a beat (largely) and most likely get us in the NCAA tourney speaks VOLUMES to the job he's done.  He's not perfect as a coach, but Jesus, the guy is just in his 3rd year, and has brought some pretty darn good talent to MU - which is a hard school to recruit to (like it or not).  Why do you think Tom Crean and Kevin O'Neill left???????

Quote from: Ners on March 06, 2011, 03:24:43 PM
Goose - Please just tell us what established, high major coach, you felt would leave his position to come coach MU?  We struck out on the best "high major/mid-major" coaches when Crean left:  Tony Bennett, Anthony Grant, Keno Davis, Sean Miller.

Listen, I don't want Buzz gone, and I'm relatively happy with the hire at this point.  But we struck out on 3-4 names and hurried to hire an unproven assistant after like 3 days.  You have no idea whether any other established coach would have been willing to come to Marquette or not.

Ners--Same thing over and over, how hard it is to recruit here. On earlier post I asked how did Bob Huggins recruit studs at KState? I am not on selection committee but if I were I would have solicited input from someone other than the guy running out the door. You and I disagree on one big issue, money talks. There are not ten guys that are untouchable. Rick Pitino being at Louisville says it all to me. To win NCAA with KU and then coach at Louisville proves to me they all are in for the money.

We spend the money like the big boys, unfortunately we are happy hitting singles and doubles. We should spend in relation to expectations. What do we need The Al for? In addition, do you really KO would have left if we were getting TC money?

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 06, 2011, 01:44:14 PM
Use the ignore button

Unfortunately, the ignore button doesn't prevent said posters from derailing threads, stifling valuable discussion, spamming the board with vindictive/snarky personal attacks, etc.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 06, 2011, 01:41:41 PM
Again, seriously.  I'm sorry Another84, but to get to the top of the mountain you have to aspire to be the best, not compare yourselves to #$#&ing DePaul.  I really don't get your rationale on this stuff at all.

Yes,  fortunately, we're doing wonderful against DePaul....except for last year head to head.   ;) 

Do you want to be the best team in the state of Wisconsin or not?

I want Marquette to be the best team in the Big East. That matters infinitely more to me than beating Wisconsin. Based on a lot of the feedback you seem to be getting, I don't think I'm alone on that.

Being the best team in BE would be nice. I do believe there is significance in being best team in the state. It might not being mandatory to be best in BE, but my gut says we need to rule the state to rule BE.

Quote from: MerrittsMustache on March 06, 2011, 03:51:12 PM
I want Marquette to be the best team in the Big East. That matters infinitely more to me than beating Wisconsin. Based on a lot of the feedback you seem to be getting, I don't think I'm alone on that.

I want to be the best team in the Big East as well....one would think that accomplishing that would easily translate into being the best team in the state and likely in the country...the best team in the Big East is traditionally a top 5 team in the country.

So, since we're anywhere from 9th to 11th in the Big East this year, I'm looking to accomplish some goals in baby steps.  First, be the best team in Milwaukee.  Then, best team in Wisconsin.  Then, best team in the conference...they tend to take care of themselves at that point.

By the way, ask me this same question in a week if we don't go to the NCAA Tournament (I think we will, but if we don't and UW goes far....see how everyone feels).

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 06, 2011, 03:58:17 PM
I want to be the best team in the Big East as well....one would think that accomplishing that would easily translate into being the best team in the state and likely in the country...the best team in the Big East is traditionally a top 5 team in the country.

So, since we're anywhere from 9th to 11th in the Big East this year, I'm looking to accomplish some goals in baby steps.  First, be the best team in Milwaukee.  Then, best team in Wisconsin.  Then, best team in the conference...they tend to take care of themselves at that point.

By the way, ask me this same question in a week if we don't go to the NCAA Tournament (I think we will, but if we don't and UW goes far....see how everyone feels).

Well, we're already the best team in Milwaukee.  On a neutral court in Green Bay Wisconsin I'd say we're still pretty close to the best team in the state (let's say best 3 out of 5). 

Best in the Midwest, not a chance.  Best in the country, can't wait to see that happen.

Quote from: TJ on March 06, 2011, 03:29:00 PM
Listen, I don't want Buzz gone, and I'm relatively happy with the hire at this point.  But we struck out on 3-4 names and hurried to hire an unproven assistant after like 3 days.  You have no idea whether any other established coach would have been willing to come to Marquette or not.

I do have a very good idea that no established coach would have been willing to come to Marquette.  It's never happened in the past history of the program.  Furthermore, if 3 up and coming mid-major coaches such as Bennett, Grant and Sean Miller turn you down - why in the world would a Top 25 coach of another program come to MU??.  Shoot, last week Doug Gotleib flat out said MU is a good job, but ARAKANSAS would be a GREAT job in comparison.

Arkansas would be great job for Buzz. Easier conference, lesser academic standards and backyard recruiting. He would be a fool not to take that job. I believe TC was nuts for taking IU because of the pressure and think Buzz would be genius if he parlayed no job three years ago now to the Arkansas job.

Quote from: Goose on March 06, 2011, 03:32:25 PM
Ners--Same thing over and over, how hard it is to recruit here. On earlier post I asked how did Bob Huggins recruit studs at KState? I am not on selection committee but if I were I would have solicited input from someone other than the guy running out the door. You and I disagree on one big issue, money talks. There are not ten guys that are untouchable. Rick Pitino being at Louisville says it all to me. To win NCAA with KU and then coach at Louisville proves to me they all are in for the money.

We spend the money like the big boys, unfortunately we are happy hitting singles and doubles. We should spend in relation to expectations. What do we need The Al for? In addition, do you really KO would have left if we were getting TC money?

KO left because he felt he couldn't take it any higher at that time given conference association and facilities at that time.  That said, you really think KO would come back to MKE now just because we have the Al and Big East conference??

Why do you think Crean left??  Recruiting..period.  You have to work 2x as hard to get kids to MKE as you do IU or many other schools.  Huggins at K-State:  Why was Huggins banished to KState - due to all his transgressions.  Think MU would have touched him and his no graduation rate for a second?  Huggins could recruit to KState at very least due to his name and success at Cincy.  Pitino has a name that kids want to go play for.  Lville can sell out the 23k seat Yum Center.  MU..struggles to get 16k at most games.

Ners---You are right. I am an idiot. But I will say this idiot believes MU has a chance to be elite program. I will not make excuses time and time again. I would much rather be a frickin idiot than an excuse maker.

Quote from: mugrad2006 on March 06, 2011, 04:13:34 PM
Well, we're already the best team in Milwaukee.  On a neutral court in Green Bay Wisconsin I'd say we're still pretty close to the best team in the state (let's say best 3 out of 5). 

Best in the Midwest, not a chance.  Best in the country, can't wait to see that happen.

Agree on Milwaukee, though the douchebags at UWM will say differently if they get into the NCAAs and we don't.

I disagree with you that 60% (3 of 5) we are the best team in the state.  I just don't see by what measurement you get there if we can't even beat them on our OWN court, let alone a neutral court....makes no sense.

I'm a rivalry type of person...I enjoy them immensely.  Purdue-IU, UCLA-USC, MU-UW, etc, etc.  I just don't get the attitudes of some here that want to run away from the comparison.  It's like they are fearful of it.

Quote from: Goose on March 06, 2011, 05:13:46 PM
Ners---You are right. I am an idiot. But I will say this idiot believes MU has a chance to be elite program. I will not make excuses time and time again. I would much rather be a frickin idiot than an excuse maker.

What's weird is so did Ners...at least only a few months ago.  Predicting multiple Final Fours and such.  I don't know why he's cooled on Buzz so much.

Quote from: Ners on March 06, 2011, 04:46:26 PM
I do have a very good idea that no established coach would have been willing to come to Marquette.  It's never happened in the past history of the program.  Furthermore, if 3 up and coming mid-major coaches such as Bennett, Grant and Sean Miller turn you down - why in the world would a Top 25 coach of another program come to MU??.  Shoot, last week Doug Gotleib flat out said MU is a good job, but ARAKANSAS would be a GREAT job in comparison.

So the 3 hottest names of the year turn us down and end up at Virginia, Alabama, and Arizona and you think there are no other options at all.

I agree that a Top 25 coach wasn't coming here, but that's just more of your hyperbole.  You can't know whether there were other good Mid-Major options that would have come because we didn't ask any of them.  Not that I necessarily want him, but if DePaul can lure Purnell from Clemson, I believe we could have managed to find somebody.

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 06, 2011, 05:43:05 PM


I'm a rivalry type of person...I enjoy them immensely.  Purdue-IU, UCLA-USC, MU-UW, etc, etc.  I just don't get the attitudes of some here that want to run away from the comparison.  It's like they are fearful of it.

You and other MU "fans" like nomorebuycks are certainly free to engage in your obsessions. You can troll the Wisconsin boards, start fights and get yourself banned. You can call people douches for the mere fact they went to a different school than you. And in the process you can embarrass yourselves and your fellow Marquette alums. But please don't confuse those who are not as obsessed as yourself with those who don't like a healthy rivalry. I despise the UW basketball team and want to beat them every bit as much as you. I just don't see the need to be a dick or a douche about it.  

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 06, 2011, 05:43:05 PMAgree on Milwaukee, though the douchebags at UWM will say differently if they get into the NCAAs and we don't.

I disagree with you that 60% (3 of 5) we are the best team in the state.  I just don't see by what measurement you get there if we can't even beat them on our OWN court, let alone a neutral court....makes no sense.

Regardless of what UW-M does, we are the best team in Milwaukee. We beat them on their court and would do so on any court. If they get in, it will be as a 14 seed at best, more likely a 15 or 16.

And to be fair, he did say "pretty close" to the best team in the state. I think we're definitely better than UW-GB, and better than any DII or DIII schools. Wisconsin is better than we are, but still, being second is "pretty close" to being the best team in the state, sort of how at #2 Kansas is "pretty close" to being the #1 ranked team in the ESPN poll.

Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 06, 2011, 07:24:29 PM
You and other MU "fans" like nomorebuycks are certainly free to engage in your obsessions.

Cool...here we go again. I'm not a fan according to you. I guess I need a new hobby, not sure why I'm spending so much time and money on MU.

Quote from: TJ on March 06, 2011, 07:19:26 PM
So the 3 hottest names of the year turn us down and end up at Virginia, Alabama, and Arizona and you think there are no other options at all.

I agree that a Top 25 coach wasn't coming here, but that's just more of your hyperbole.  You can't know whether there were other good Mid-Major options that would have come because we didn't ask any of them.  Not that I necessarily want him, but if DePaul can lure Purnell from Clemson, I believe we could have managed to find somebody.

But that's just it - would the "somebody" really be doing a better job than Buzz has??  I think it is highly unlikely.  What he's done with having only 5 scholarship players at MU after the Big 3 left and Mbawke and Christopherson chose to transfer...to me is pretty darn good.  Plus, I believe Buzz is about as good of recruiter as there is out there..and as he grows as a coach, and hopefully his MU teams have more success...the recruiting and caliber of players he's able to get to MU should just get better and better...which will eventually translate into what we all want - which is MU to be a Top 10 program.  I just don't think that can happen overnight, nor expect it to happen overnight.

Quote from: brewcity77 on March 06, 2011, 07:27:44 PM
Regardless of what UW-M does, we are the best team in Milwaukee. We beat them on their court and would do so on any court. If they get in, it will be as a 14 seed at best, more likely a 15 or 16.

And to be fair, he did say "pretty close" to the best team in the state. I think we're definitely better than UW-GB, and better than any DII or DIII schools. Wisconsin is better than we are, but still, being second is "pretty close" to being the best team in the state, sort of how at #2 Kansas is "pretty close" to being the #1 ranked team in the ESPN poll.

At least Kansas has best team in the state of Kansas locked down...and it's not pretty close regardless of what the goat herders in Manhattan, KS want to claim.   ;)

Quote from: brewcity77 on March 06, 2011, 07:27:44 PM
And to be fair, he did say "pretty close" to the best team in the state. I think we're definitely better than UW-GB, and better than any DII or DIII schools. Wisconsin is better than we are, but still, being second is "pretty close" to being the best team in the state, sort of how at #2 Kansas is "pretty close" to being the #1 ranked team in the ESPN poll.

I stand by my statement, even if others of you think it's slightly irrational.  I believe MU is a tough matchup for the Badgers, and on a neutral court we win 3 out of 5.  Now, I picked odd numbers on purpose and you could say we go 2 out of 5 (40% instead of 60%) but I did that knowingly for effect.

If MU plays to the level we've seen flashes of, they can take down anybody short of Kansas, tOSU, UNC, and Duke.  Those other four are a level above us yet short of an outlier night. 

Quote from: Ners on March 06, 2011, 09:49:23 PM
But that's just it - would the "somebody" really be doing a better job than Buzz has??  I think it is highly unlikely. 

I don't know what would have happened either, but your willingness to write off this program astounds me.  We would have been fine I'm sure.  Either way, earlier you made it seem as if there was no coach that would possibly come here at all and the only options were Buzz or some other assistant.  There's no way we could know that, since they stopped trying after they went through the 3 hottest names in the game that year.

Quote from: Ners on March 06, 2011, 09:49:23 PM
What he's done with having only 5 scholarship players at MU after the Big 3 left and Mbawke and Christopherson chose to transfer...to me is pretty darn good.  Plus, I believe Buzz is about as good of recruiter as there is out there..and as he grows as a coach, and hopefully his MU teams have more success...the recruiting and caliber of players he's able to get to MU should just get better and better...which will eventually translate into what we all want - which is MU to be a Top 10 program.  I just don't think that can happen overnight, nor expect it to happen overnight.

I hope you're right.

Quote from: TJ on March 07, 2011, 08:38:07 AM
I don't know what would have happened either, but your willingness to write off this program astounds me.  We would have been fine I'm sure.  Either way, earlier you made it seem as if there was no coach that would possibly come here at all and the only options were Buzz or some other assistant.  There's no way we could know that, since they stopped trying after they went through the 3 hottest names in the game that year.
I hope you're right.

TJ - I guess what I post gets misconstrued, as I really don't feel what I've written is writing the MU program off.  Is my view perhpas more pessimistic than is yours and others, as to where MU stands in the hierarchy of college basketball programs?  Probably.  I'd love for MU to be considered a destination job, but there is very little in our past history that suggests its ever been perceived as much more than a stepping stone job.  (Which annoys me..but just has been the reality.)

It does become a slippery slope with regard to interviewing a ton of candidates...but then coming back to a guy like Buzz - as it can create the perception you were a last resort candidate.  Considering the nature of hiring in CBB - with so much publicized...it is not like the work world where there is privacy within the interview process.

Ners is right here.  You can't go out and conduct a three week search for a head coach and interview a dozen candidates.  You have to always have a short-list ready because these things happen fast and quietly.  No serious candidate wants their name hanging out there for weeks and no program wants to look like it doesn't know what it wants.

Cottingham likely has a list of five names now that he could call right now should Buzz announce he is leaving.

Quote from: Ners on March 06, 2011, 03:24:43 PM
Goose - Please just tell us what established, high major coach, you felt would leave his position to come coach MU?  We struck out on the best "high major/mid-major" coaches when Crean left:  Tony Bennett, Anthony Grant, Keno Davis, Sean Miller.

You realize after the coaching change/Big 3 left - the program basically had Lazar, Mo Acker and David Cubillan on the roster (and Pat Hazel).  That is 4 players out of a possible 13.  For Buzz to reload and have us NOT miss a beat (largely) and most likely get us in the NCAA tourney speaks VOLUMES to the job he's done.  He's not perfect as a coach, but Jesus, the guy is just in his 3rd year, and has brought some pretty darn good talent to MU - which is a hard school to recruit to (like it or not).  Why do you think Tom Crean and Kevin O'Neill left???????

Ners,

Are we back to the "we should love Buzz because we can't get anybody better" defense again?

I think there are far too many critiques of the coach and the team right now, but we don't need to go to this line of thinking.

Buzz is the head coach because MU thought he was qualified and would do a good job. So far, he's been pretty good. Next 2 years will really tell the story.

You predicted a final 4 from Buzz. Use that kind of optimism for your defense, it would be better than saying "We can't get anybody better".

Quote from: Ners on March 06, 2011, 03:24:43 PM
You realize after the coaching change/Big 3 left - the program basically had Lazar, Mo Acker and David Cubillan on the roster (and Pat Hazel).  That is 4 players out of a possible 13.  For Buzz to reload and have us NOT miss a beat (largely) and most likely get us in the NCAA tourney speaks VOLUMES to the job he's done.  He's not perfect as a coach, but Jesus, the guy is just in his 3rd year, and has brought some pretty darn good talent to MU - which is a hard school to recruit to (like it or not).  Why do you think Tom Crean and Kevin O'Neill left???????

This.  Very well done Ners.

Quote from: 2002MUalum on March 07, 2011, 09:12:01 AM
Ners,

Are we back to the "we should love Buzz because we can't get anybody better" defense again?

I think there are far too many critiques of the coach and the team right now, but we don't need to go to this line of thinking.

Buzz is the head coach because MU thought he was qualified and would do a good job. So far, he's been pretty good. Next 2 years will really tell the story.

You predicted a final 4 from Buzz. Use that kind of optimism for your defense, it would be better than saying "We can't get anybody better".

My response was to Groove who only complains about our selection process, and Buzz...but offers no solutions as to who he'd suggest we get...we tried getting a few others guys -they said no.  I'm glad..because I think Buzz has a big upside.  I take issue with people who constantly complain, but then offer no solutions or alternatives - other than as Groove has - throw more money than any other school out to a candidate and see if we can't land a marquee name.  The reality is that some "marquee" names such as Jay Wright, Jim Calhoun, Huggins, etc - Buzz and team have beat this year and in past years...

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 06, 2011, 09:40:11 PM
Cool...here we go again. I'm not a fan according to you. I guess I need a new hobby, not sure why I'm spending so much time and money on MU.

Neither do we.

Quote from: Ners on March 07, 2011, 10:05:23 AM
My response was to Groove who only complains about our selection process, and Buzz...but offers no solutions as to who he'd suggest we get...we tried getting a few others guys -they said no.  I'm glad..because I think Buzz has a big upside.  I take issue with people who constantly complain, but then offer no solutions or alternatives - other than as Groove has - throw more money than any other school out to a candidate and see if we can't land a marquee name.  The reality is that some "marquee" names such as Jay Wright, Jim Calhoun, Huggins, etc - Buzz and team have beat this year and in past years...

Fair, but you are Buzz's biggest fan. I don't think using the jedi mind trick of asking people "who else they could get" is really supporting your guy.

Do you still think that Buzz will lead MU to a final 4 appearance? I actually like what I have seen so far, but I think the next 2 years are really going to tell us what we have got (as far as a head coach).

I believe that Buzz has a better chance of getting us to a final 4 than I did Tom Crean when he came.   Crean recruited and developed Wade, which correctly is his calling card and did get us to the final 4.    I believe that Buzz is a better coach and can more consistently land talent.    I am honestly more concerned about him getting lured to a better job (IMO there ARE no better jobs, but I am biased) than I am about him failing. 

I think Buzz has the best chance to land FF talent. My concern is making FF talent mesh together. No doubt in my mind Buzz can get athletes. Know I am broken record but would love to see Buzz get a high priced, high ball IQ assistant.

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on March 07, 2011, 08:58:32 AM
Ners is right here.  You can't go out and conduct a three week search for a head coach

How about 2 weeks...like St. John's did?   ;D

Quote from: tower912 on March 07, 2011, 12:35:52 PM
I believe that Buzz has a better chance of getting us to a final 4 than I did Tom Crean when he came.   Crean recruited and developed Wade, which correctly is his calling card and did get us to the final 4.    I believe that Buzz is a better coach and can more consistently land talent.    I am honestly more concerned about him getting lured to a better job (IMO there ARE no better jobs, but I am biased) than I am about him failing. 

Well, of course.  Crean came in with a crap program, crap facilities, mediocre league.  Buzz, or any other coach that was hired in 2009 comes in with a better chance...better facilities, better league (best league), team with multiple NCAA appearances in a row.

I'm still amazed at folks that think Buzz is a better coach...I'm not saying he isn't, but what exactly has he shown to convince you of this?  The results certainly haven't born this out...yet.  Maybe they will, but what is it that you're seeing that makes you so convinced of this?  I know some people get there because they hate the last guy...I don't think that's the case with you, Tower.  You seem a pretty level headed guy.  What is it in the coaching that you see that screams he is awesome?  I hope he gets there, I don't see it yet.  I see too many games where we are lost, especially in the second half.  Defensively I just want to cry most of the time.  Sub patterns, timeouts, etc.  That's all part of coaching.  I'd add that we supposedly have more talent than we have in decades, but the results aren't there....doesn't that extend to the coach somewhat?

I appreciate the feedback...I'm asking a serious question.

And st johns ended up hiring someone who wasn't a current coach.

Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on March 07, 2011, 02:38:04 PM
And st johns ended up hiring someone who wasn't a current coach.

Very true.  UCLA fans will tell you he wasn't a past coach, either.   ;)

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 07, 2011, 02:28:56 PM
Well, of course.  Crean came in with a crap program, crap facilities, mediocre league.  Buzz, or any other coach that was hired in 2009 comes in with a better chance...better facilities, better league (best league), team with multiple NCAA appearances in a row.

I'm still amazed at folks that think Buzz is a better coach...I'm not saying he isn't, but what exactly has he shown to convince you of this?  The results certainly haven't born this out...yet.

We have to wait a couple more seasons to see what we have.

I've said that for 3 years, and I was labeled a "hater" by some.

Now when I say it, I sound like a defender.

Truth is, fans are too reactionary and don't use their heads. Buzz exceeded expectation his first 2 seasons, so fans were enamored with him. Love his accent, loved his coaching, loved "paint touches", loved his suits, loved everything about the guy because he was winning.

Lose a couple of tough ones, and some fans hate him. Hate his accent. Hate his post game. Hate his "paint touches", hate his rotations.

We have to give him a chance with his own roster (next season) and see what happens.

Crean was lucky to land Wade, but he did eventually reload with Amigos, Lazar, Mbakwe, Taylor, etc. That was a good amount of talent.

Need to give Buzz 4-5 years to see what talent he can land and reload with.

I agree with this 2002.  That's why I've always said wait 5 years, that's when you truly know.  When I see comments like "better coach", I don't know if it's just a bias built in, a desire built in, or if they are truly seeing something...if so, I wish they would articulate it.

He's young, has a lot of room for improvement.  I think he can get there but I don't think he's there yet.

First things first.   I was a Crean fan.   He took us out of the Deane years and to a final 4.   190 wins in 9 years.   I never met the man, so I can't comment on his personality.   
Recruiting:   Crean brought in good talent, obviously, but he had entire classes that were misses.  Close on a lot of guys and got MU into places and conversations that we hadn't been since Al.    Novak, Diener, Wade, Amigos v. Amorosa, Mortenson, Niv, Carlton Christian, James Matthews, Bell, Lott.    Buzz has had 3 classes, managed to replace another and.   So far, the talent level in Buzz's classes seems more consistent.
Development:   Ooze as a senior vs. Otule as a Sophomore.   Edge, Buzz.     Ooze, Merrit, Sanders, Townsend, Grimm, Lott, Chapman.    That is a whole lot of no progress.  Crean gets credit for Wade.   Novak and Diener progressed normally.   DJ regressed over 3 years.   If EWill or Blue fails to improve, the argument can change.   But watching the development of Butler, Cadougan, and Otule tilts this heavily toward Buzz at this point.
Game strategies:   Crean's fatal flaw.   Nearly incapable of making an in-game adjustment when things go poorly.   I always felt that it was tied to his inability to land bigs, but that is another argument.   2000 plays evolving into a 3 man weave with a late drive or a desperation 3.   Complete inability to attack a zone, even with Wade, Diener and Novak.     Buzz knows when to spring a press.  And attack a zone. (Even if they fail to execute sometimes) Crean's defenses were generally better, but not always.    Buzz's motion offense is better than Crean's but sometimes he needs to run a little iso or high pick and roll.  .

PR:  Crean and it isn't close.   Except that whole losing handshake thing.
Transfers:   Push

I believe that Crean believed that he had reached his peak at MU.   Buzz doesn't believe that.   And if everything else was equal, that would be the difference maker to me.     

(Ran out of space)
Buzz got a better season out of Crean's players than Crean did.   What would Crean's record be with a team with the size of a high school team?    The job Buzz did with the talent and size on hand last year was better than what Crean did in 03.     Buzz was able to force teams to adjust to his style of play last year.   Crean was never able to do that.
I give full marks to Crean for taking the program from where it was when he arrived into the BEast.   That cannot be underestimated or downplayed.   He has a built in homefield  advantage now in recruiting and is coaching in an easier conference.   I expect him to build IU back to respectability but not be able to take them to the promised land of conference championships and final 4's.
I have already seen Buzz, in his first 3 years, go toe to toe with a murderer's row of hall of fame coaches,  rarely getting his butt seriously kicked.    I saw Crean get rolled numerous times 4-5-9 years into his tenure here.      I give Crean his due.   But Buzz has a higher ceiling.   

Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 07, 2011, 02:23:00 PM
How about 2 weeks...like St. John's did?   ;D

And what ... land Keno Davis? Chris Lowery? Jim Les? Tony Bennett? Weren't those the names you were wailing for?
Combined record this year: 56-69.
One's already out of a job, and two more may be soon.
Personally, I'm happy with Cottingham's search and selection. Heckuva lot better than what some of the experts around here wanted.

Quote from: Pakuni on March 07, 2011, 07:26:10 PM
And what ... land Keno Davis? Chris Lowery? Jim Les? Tony Bennett? Weren't those the names you were wailing for?
Combined record this year: 56-69.
One's already out of a job, and two more may be soon.
Personally, I'm happy with Cottingham's search and selection. Heckuva lot better than what some of the experts around here wanted.

Yeah, but those guys were "established" and "less risky". That way when you crap yourself with a bad hire you can say "Not my fault". Plausable denialability, cover your ass at all times is the code some here live by.

Tower - Very good and objective analysis.  I have no problem with Tom Crean - other than when I detect the ridiculous double standards Chicos and 84 have when comparing Buzz and TC.

TC definitely elevated the program and did some very good things..better things than had been done at MU since Al.  Got to give the man his due.  I agree Buzz has a higher upside both from a recruiting and coaching perspective.

2002 - I do believe Buzz can take MU to a Final Four, absolutely, and would not be surprised if it happened in his first 9 years on the job.  I also believe it is highly unlikely we would go from a Final Four team to an NIT team the next 2 years.  I see more consistent recruiting capability out of Buzz.

I find it comical that some here are so concerned about Buzz this year, and loudly trying to beat the panic drum - lost 2nd half leads, suspect defense, etc. - just because we went 9-9 in the Big East, as did 2 Top 25 nationally ranked, signature programs - UCONN and NOVA. 

I know this is a fool's errand, but can you guys keep your Buzz / TC argument and general semantic arguments to one thread?  I keep looking for new posts or ideas under a topic but the same conversation seems to be happening in every thread.

Quote from: tower912 on March 07, 2011, 06:42:35 PM
(Ran out of space)
Buzz got a better season out of Crean's players than Crean did.   What would Crean's record be with a team with the size of a high school team?    The job Buzz did with the talent and size on hand last year was better than what Crean did in 03.     Buzz was able to force teams to adjust to his style of play last year.   Crean was never able to do that.
I give full marks to Crean for taking the program from where it was when he arrived into the BEast.   That cannot be underestimated or downplayed.   He has a built in homefield  advantage now in recruiting and is coaching in an easier conference.   I expect him to build IU back to respectability but not be able to take them to the promised land of conference championships and final 4's.
I have already seen Buzz, in his first 3 years, go toe to toe with a murderer's row of hall of fame coaches,  rarely getting his butt seriously kicked.    I saw Crean get rolled numerous times 4-5-9 years into his tenure here.      I give Crean his due.   But Buzz has a higher ceiling.   

It's great that he's gone "toe to toe" with all these coaches....do they count W's and L's or do they count going toe to toe?

That was my original question.  Based on results, I don't know how anyone can make the comments that you and Lenny and others have made. This year is our worst finish in our history in the conference.  Now, maybe it's a burp and no big deal.  People say we didn't have as much talent or they were inexperienced....people said the same thing in 2006 but we ended up tied for 4th place....despite all that inexperience. 

You bring up examples that Buzz got more out of the team than Crean did.  Maybe...but do you know how this team would have done under Crean in Buzz's first year?  Especially with additional backups like Tyshawn Taylor, etc?  I suspect they would have done just as well, but none of us knows this.  All we can go on is the facts.  Right now, 9th place finish and 11th seed is the worst in MU history in this conference.  Those are facts.  Now, I think Buzz can get there and is a pretty good coach right now, but I like to deal with results not "higher ceilings"...Ryan Leaf supposedly had a higher ceiling.  Your arguments seem to be based on fluff, gut feelings and desires.  Nothing wrong with that, but where's the hard evidence?  I don't see it....maybe in a few years, but not now.  It just isn't there yet.

Thank you for your predictability.   Were Ooze, Sanders, Townsend, Lott, Chapman, Grimm, Merrit successes at MU?   Did they improve as much as you would have like to have seen?     Were there not misses with entire classes, Niv, Amo, Mortenson, Kinsella?   Too subjective?  Will you be as forgiving of Buzz if he loses two classes in 9 years and  fails to develop a big with marginal skills into a servicable big. (Oops, too late for that. Otule is already ahead of Grimm and Ooze.)    If we miss the postseason or go to the NIT (while in CUSA of all places) in year 5 of Buzz's tenure, will you defend him as strongly as you did Crean against Abe's attacks on the jsonline boards?  Too fluffy?   The facts say that Buzz has already won as many NCAA tourney games at MU as Crean did without Wade.  Your reflexive counterargument can only be that he did it with Crean's players, bolstering your boy and undercutting Buzz. The facts say that more than 1/2 of Crean's tenure was spent in CUSA and he still missed the postseason and went to the NIT.
Subjectively, (since that is what you believe my argument is) in your observations, who is better at in-game adjustments?        Who do your eyeballs say does a better job of developing bigs?

Ah, well, be who you have to be.    There are areas in which Buzz needs to improve.     Just like Crean.   Buzz has had 4 years to get better.    Crean has had 12 and he hasn't shown that he can.   I am still subjectively hopeful for Buzz.    

Quote from: Ners on March 07, 2011, 07:57:43 PM


2002 - I do believe Buzz can take MU to a Final Four, absolutely, and would not be surprised if it happened in his first 9 years on the job.  I also believe it is highly unlikely we would go from a Final Four team to an NIT team the next 2 years.  I see more consistent recruiting capability out of Buzz.

So now there's a 9 year qualifier on it?  Just how long do you think Buzz will be here...25 years?  Besides, if poorer coach (less upside) and poorer recruiter can do it in 9 years, then certainly......

You get the idea.  This is why I laugh so much at you when you get all hot and bothered by so called double standards when you spew them out daily with your posts.  You have so many double standards it's hard to count them all.  Keep up the good work.

Quote from: tower912 on March 07, 2011, 08:37:11 PM
Thank you for your predictability.    One point.   Fluff....hypothesis.....ok.   And then ask how do I know that the team with Taylor along with the amigos wouldn't have been better.   I don't.  And neither do you. 

Correct, I don't know...that's why I said "I suspect they would have done just as well".  Just my opinion, but we don't know.

Yes, my predictability is grounded in the facts....that's what makes it predictable.  I think Buzz has a great upside and a solid future.  These very same impressions were said about Crean in years 3 and 4, I'd remind you, by some of the very same people saying them now about Buzz.  A bit of irony there I'd suspect. 

We'll know a lot more in a few years, but I haven't seen any evidence (certainly not this year) to suggest he is a better coach...doesn't mean he isn't, but I'm trying to deal with facts, not what ifs and maybes.  Hell, what if McNeal didn't break his arm.  What if DJ didn't hurt.  Etc, etc.  Right now, jury is still out but I'm open solid evidence to refute it, I just didn't think you presented that evidence in my opinion. 

Quote from: Ners on March 07, 2011, 07:57:43 PM


I find it comical that some here are so concerned about Buzz this year, and loudly trying to beat the panic drum - lost 2nd half leads, suspect defense, etc. - just because we went 9-9 in the Big East, as did 2 Top 25 nationally ranked, signature programs - UCONN and NOVA. 

I felt the EXACT same way last season, but bizarro. I mean, I liked the job Buzz did, but I wasn't ready to make bold predictions about his fantastic coaching abilities and MU's bright future like some others were. I know you and I battled about that. I wasn't ready to proclaim a future final 4 after 2 seasons. Not enough data. Its the same thing yo are saying now.

Let's face it, some people were a little too excited last season, and some people are a little too negative right now. I know that's a boring answer, but it's the truth. This year has been fun and frustrating, no doubt. Next season will be the real test. If MU is 9-9, Ners, you will be hating the internet.

Back to your regularly schedule Chico's debate(s).