The Stupidity On This Board Is Amazing

[GGGG]

Ners is right here.  You can't go out and conduct a three week search for a head coach and interview a dozen candidates.  You have to always have a short-list ready because these things happen fast and quietly.  No serious candidate wants their name hanging out there for weeks and no program wants to look like it doesn't know what it wants.

Cottingham likely has a list of five names now that he could call right now should Buzz announce he is leaving.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Goose - Please just tell us what established, high major coach, you felt would leave his position to come coach MU?  We struck out on the best "high major/mid-major" coaches when Crean left:  Tony Bennett, Anthony Grant, Keno Davis, Sean Miller.

You realize after the coaching change/Big 3 left - the program basically had Lazar, Mo Acker and David Cubillan on the roster (and Pat Hazel).  That is 4 players out of a possible 13.  For Buzz to reload and have us NOT miss a beat (largely) and most likely get us in the NCAA tourney speaks VOLUMES to the job he's done.  He's not perfect as a coach, but Jesus, the guy is just in his 3rd year, and has brought some pretty darn good talent to MU - which is a hard school to recruit to (like it or not).  Why do you think Tom Crean and Kevin O'Neill left???????

Ners,

Are we back to the "we should love Buzz because we can't get anybody better" defense again?

I think there are far too many critiques of the coach and the team right now, but we don't need to go to this line of thinking.

Buzz is the head coach because MU thought he was qualified and would do a good job. So far, he's been pretty good. Next 2 years will really tell the story.

You predicted a final 4 from Buzz. Use that kind of optimism for your defense, it would be better than saying "We can't get anybody better".

[TallTitan34]

You realize after the coaching change/Big 3 left - the program basically had Lazar, Mo Acker and David Cubillan on the roster (and Pat Hazel).  That is 4 players out of a possible 13.  For Buzz to reload and have us NOT miss a beat (largely) and most likely get us in the NCAA tourney speaks VOLUMES to the job he's done.  He's not perfect as a coach, but Jesus, the guy is just in his 3rd year, and has brought some pretty darn good talent to MU - which is a hard school to recruit to (like it or not).  Why do you think Tom Crean and Kevin O'Neill left???????

This.  Very well done Ners.

[NersEllenson]

Ners,

Are we back to the "we should love Buzz because we can't get anybody better" defense again?

I think there are far too many critiques of the coach and the team right now, but we don't need to go to this line of thinking.

Buzz is the head coach because MU thought he was qualified and would do a good job. So far, he's been pretty good. Next 2 years will really tell the story.

You predicted a final 4 from Buzz. Use that kind of optimism for your defense, it would be better than saying "We can't get anybody better".

My response was to Groove who only complains about our selection process, and Buzz...but offers no solutions as to who he'd suggest we get...we tried getting a few others guys -they said no.  I'm glad..because I think Buzz has a big upside.  I take issue with people who constantly complain, but then offer no solutions or alternatives - other than as Groove has - throw more money than any other school out to a candidate and see if we can't land a marquee name.  The reality is that some "marquee" names such as Jay Wright, Jim Calhoun, Huggins, etc - Buzz and team have beat this year and in past years...

[ZiggysFryBoy]

Cool...here we go again. I'm not a fan according to you. I guess I need a new hobby, not sure why I'm spending so much time and money on MU.

Neither do we.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

My response was to Groove who only complains about our selection process, and Buzz...but offers no solutions as to who he'd suggest we get...we tried getting a few others guys -they said no.  I'm glad..because I think Buzz has a big upside.  I take issue with people who constantly complain, but then offer no solutions or alternatives - other than as Groove has - throw more money than any other school out to a candidate and see if we can't land a marquee name.  The reality is that some "marquee" names such as Jay Wright, Jim Calhoun, Huggins, etc - Buzz and team have beat this year and in past years...

Fair, but you are Buzz's biggest fan. I don't think using the jedi mind trick of asking people "who else they could get" is really supporting your guy.

Do you still think that Buzz will lead MU to a final 4 appearance? I actually like what I have seen so far, but I think the next 2 years are really going to tell us what we have got (as far as a head coach).

[tower912]

I believe that Buzz has a better chance of getting us to a final 4 than I did Tom Crean when he came.   Crean recruited and developed Wade, which correctly is his calling card and did get us to the final 4.    I believe that Buzz is a better coach and can more consistently land talent.    I am honestly more concerned about him getting lured to a better job (IMO there ARE no better jobs, but I am biased) than I am about him failing. 

[Goose]

I think Buzz has the best chance to land FF talent. My concern is making FF talent mesh together. No doubt in my mind Buzz can get athletes. Know I am broken record but would love to see Buzz get a high priced, high ball IQ assistant.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Ners is right here.  You can't go out and conduct a three week search for a head coach

How about 2 weeks...like St. John's did?   

[ChicosBailBonds]

I believe that Buzz has a better chance of getting us to a final 4 than I did Tom Crean when he came.   Crean recruited and developed Wade, which correctly is his calling card and did get us to the final 4.    I believe that Buzz is a better coach and can more consistently land talent.    I am honestly more concerned about him getting lured to a better job (IMO there ARE no better jobs, but I am biased) than I am about him failing. 

Well, of course.  Crean came in with a crap program, crap facilities, mediocre league.  Buzz, or any other coach that was hired in 2009 comes in with a better chance...better facilities, better league (best league), team with multiple NCAA appearances in a row.

I'm still amazed at folks that think Buzz is a better coach...I'm not saying he isn't, but what exactly has he shown to convince you of this?  The results certainly haven't born this out...yet.  Maybe they will, but what is it that you're seeing that makes you so convinced of this?  I know some people get there because they hate the last guy...I don't think that's the case with you, Tower.  You seem a pretty level headed guy.  What is it in the coaching that you see that screams he is awesome?  I hope he gets there, I don't see it yet.  I see too many games where we are lost, especially in the second half.  Defensively I just want to cry most of the time.  Sub patterns, timeouts, etc.  That's all part of coaching.  I'd add that we supposedly have more talent than we have in decades, but the results aren't there....doesn't that extend to the coach somewhat?

I appreciate the feedback...I'm asking a serious question.

[GGGG]

And st johns ended up hiring someone who wasn't a current coach.

[ChicosBailBonds]

And st johns ended up hiring someone who wasn't a current coach.

Very true.  UCLA fans will tell you he wasn't a past coach, either.   

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Well, of course.  Crean came in with a crap program, crap facilities, mediocre league.  Buzz, or any other coach that was hired in 2009 comes in with a better chance...better facilities, better league (best league), team with multiple NCAA appearances in a row.

I'm still amazed at folks that think Buzz is a better coach...I'm not saying he isn't, but what exactly has he shown to convince you of this?  The results certainly haven't born this out...yet.

We have to wait a couple more seasons to see what we have.

I've said that for 3 years, and I was labeled a "hater" by some.

Now when I say it, I sound like a defender.

Truth is, fans are too reactionary and don't use their heads. Buzz exceeded expectation his first 2 seasons, so fans were enamored with him. Love his accent, loved his coaching, loved "paint touches", loved his suits, loved everything about the guy because he was winning.

Lose a couple of tough ones, and some fans hate him. Hate his accent. Hate his post game. Hate his "paint touches", hate his rotations.

We have to give him a chance with his own roster (next season) and see what happens.

Crean was lucky to land Wade, but he did eventually reload with Amigos, Lazar, Mbakwe, Taylor, etc. That was a good amount of talent.

Need to give Buzz 4-5 years to see what talent he can land and reload with.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I agree with this 2002.  That's why I've always said wait 5 years, that's when you truly know.  When I see comments like "better coach", I don't know if it's just a bias built in, a desire built in, or if they are truly seeing something...if so, I wish they would articulate it.

He's young, has a lot of room for improvement.  I think he can get there but I don't think he's there yet.

[tower912]

First things first.   I was a Crean fan.   He took us out of the Deane years and to a final 4.   190 wins in 9 years.   I never met the man, so I can't comment on his personality.   
Recruiting:   Crean brought in good talent, obviously, but he had entire classes that were misses.  Close on a lot of guys and got MU into places and conversations that we hadn't been since Al.    Novak, Diener, Wade, Amigos v. Amorosa, Mortenson, Niv, Carlton Christian, James Matthews, Bell, Lott.    Buzz has had 3 classes, managed to replace another and.   So far, the talent level in Buzz's classes seems more consistent.
Development:   Ooze as a senior vs. Otule as a Sophomore.   Edge, Buzz.     Ooze, Merrit, Sanders, Townsend, Grimm, Lott, Chapman.    That is a whole lot of no progress.  Crean gets credit for Wade.   Novak and Diener progressed normally.   DJ regressed over 3 years.   If EWill or Blue fails to improve, the argument can change.   But watching the development of Butler, Cadougan, and Otule tilts this heavily toward Buzz at this point.
Game strategies:   Crean's fatal flaw.   Nearly incapable of making an in-game adjustment when things go poorly.   I always felt that it was tied to his inability to land bigs, but that is another argument.   2000 plays evolving into a 3 man weave with a late drive or a desperation 3.   Complete inability to attack a zone, even with Wade, Diener and Novak.     Buzz knows when to spring a press.  And attack a zone. (Even if they fail to execute sometimes) Crean's defenses were generally better, but not always.    Buzz's motion offense is better than Crean's but sometimes he needs to run a little iso or high pick and roll.  .

PR:  Crean and it isn't close.   Except that whole losing handshake thing.
Transfers:   Push

I believe that Crean believed that he had reached his peak at MU.   Buzz doesn't believe that.   And if everything else was equal, that would be the difference maker to me.     

[tower912]

(Ran out of space)
Buzz got a better season out of Crean's players than Crean did.   What would Crean's record be with a team with the size of a high school team?    The job Buzz did with the talent and size on hand last year was better than what Crean did in 03.     Buzz was able to force teams to adjust to his style of play last year.   Crean was never able to do that.
I give full marks to Crean for taking the program from where it was when he arrived into the BEast.   That cannot be underestimated or downplayed.   He has a built in homefield  advantage now in recruiting and is coaching in an easier conference.   I expect him to build IU back to respectability but not be able to take them to the promised land of conference championships and final 4's.
I have already seen Buzz, in his first 3 years, go toe to toe with a murderer's row of hall of fame coaches,  rarely getting his butt seriously kicked.    I saw Crean get rolled numerous times 4-5-9 years into his tenure here.      I give Crean his due.   But Buzz has a higher ceiling.   

[Pakuni]

How about 2 weeks...like St. John's did?   

And what ... land Keno Davis? Chris Lowery? Jim Les? Tony Bennett? Weren't those the names you were wailing for?
Combined record this year: 56-69.
One's already out of a job, and two more may be soon.
Personally, I'm happy with Cottingham's search and selection. Heckuva lot better than what some of the experts around here wanted.

[Lennys Tap]

And what ... land Keno Davis? Chris Lowery? Jim Les? Tony Bennett? Weren't those the names you were wailing for?
Combined record this year: 56-69.
One's already out of a job, and two more may be soon.
Personally, I'm happy with Cottingham's search and selection. Heckuva lot better than what some of the experts around here wanted.

Yeah, but those guys were "established" and "less risky". That way when you crap yourself with a bad hire you can say "Not my fault". Plausable denialability, cover your ass at all times is the code some here live by.

[NersEllenson]

Tower - Very good and objective analysis.  I have no problem with Tom Crean - other than when I detect the ridiculous double standards Chicos and 84 have when comparing Buzz and TC.

TC definitely elevated the program and did some very good things..better things than had been done at MU since Al.  Got to give the man his due.  I agree Buzz has a higher upside both from a recruiting and coaching perspective.

2002 - I do believe Buzz can take MU to a Final Four, absolutely, and would not be surprised if it happened in his first 9 years on the job.  I also believe it is highly unlikely we would go from a Final Four team to an NIT team the next 2 years.  I see more consistent recruiting capability out of Buzz.

I find it comical that some here are so concerned about Buzz this year, and loudly trying to beat the panic drum - lost 2nd half leads, suspect defense, etc. - just because we went 9-9 in the Big East, as did 2 Top 25 nationally ranked, signature programs - UCONN and NOVA. 

[mugrad2006]

I know this is a fool's errand, but can you guys keep your Buzz / TC argument and general semantic arguments to one thread?  I keep looking for new posts or ideas under a topic but the same conversation seems to be happening in every thread.

[ChicosBailBonds]

(Ran out of space)
Buzz got a better season out of Crean's players than Crean did.   What would Crean's record be with a team with the size of a high school team?    The job Buzz did with the talent and size on hand last year was better than what Crean did in 03.     Buzz was able to force teams to adjust to his style of play last year.   Crean was never able to do that.
I give full marks to Crean for taking the program from where it was when he arrived into the BEast.   That cannot be underestimated or downplayed.   He has a built in homefield  advantage now in recruiting and is coaching in an easier conference.   I expect him to build IU back to respectability but not be able to take them to the promised land of conference championships and final 4's.
I have already seen Buzz, in his first 3 years, go toe to toe with a murderer's row of hall of fame coaches,  rarely getting his butt seriously kicked.    I saw Crean get rolled numerous times 4-5-9 years into his tenure here.      I give Crean his due.   But Buzz has a higher ceiling.   

It's great that he's gone "toe to toe" with all these coaches....do they count W's and L's or do they count going toe to toe?

That was my original question.  Based on results, I don't know how anyone can make the comments that you and Lenny and others have made. This year is our worst finish in our history in the conference.  Now, maybe it's a burp and no big deal.  People say we didn't have as much talent or they were inexperienced....people said the same thing in 2006 but we ended up tied for 4th place....despite all that inexperience. 

You bring up examples that Buzz got more out of the team than Crean did.  Maybe...but do you know how this team would have done under Crean in Buzz's first year?  Especially with additional backups like Tyshawn Taylor, etc?  I suspect they would have done just as well, but none of us knows this.  All we can go on is the facts.  Right now, 9th place finish and 11th seed is the worst in MU history in this conference.  Those are facts.  Now, I think Buzz can get there and is a pretty good coach right now, but I like to deal with results not "higher ceilings"...Ryan Leaf supposedly had a higher ceiling.  Your arguments seem to be based on fluff, gut feelings and desires.  Nothing wrong with that, but where's the hard evidence?  I don't see it....maybe in a few years, but not now.  It just isn't there yet.

[tower912]

Thank you for your predictability.   Were Ooze, Sanders, Townsend, Lott, Chapman, Grimm, Merrit successes at MU?   Did they improve as much as you would have like to have seen?     Were there not misses with entire classes, Niv, Amo, Mortenson, Kinsella?   Too subjective?  Will you be as forgiving of Buzz if he loses two classes in 9 years and  fails to develop a big with marginal skills into a servicable big. (Oops, too late for that. Otule is already ahead of Grimm and Ooze.)    If we miss the postseason or go to the NIT (while in CUSA of all places) in year 5 of Buzz's tenure, will you defend him as strongly as you did Crean against Abe's attacks on the jsonline boards?  Too fluffy?   The facts say that Buzz has already won as many NCAA tourney games at MU as Crean did without Wade.  Your reflexive counterargument can only be that he did it with Crean's players, bolstering your boy and undercutting Buzz. The facts say that more than 1/2 of Crean's tenure was spent in CUSA and he still missed the postseason and went to the NIT.
Subjectively, (since that is what you believe my argument is) in your observations, who is better at in-game adjustments?        Who do your eyeballs say does a better job of developing bigs?

Ah, well, be who you have to be.    There are areas in which Buzz needs to improve.     Just like Crean.   Buzz has had 4 years to get better.    Crean has had 12 and he hasn't shown that he can.   I am still subjectively hopeful for Buzz.    

[ChicosBailBonds]

2002 - I do believe Buzz can take MU to a Final Four, absolutely, and would not be surprised if it happened in his first 9 years on the job.  I also believe it is highly unlikely we would go from a Final Four team to an NIT team the next 2 years.  I see more consistent recruiting capability out of Buzz.

So now there's a 9 year qualifier on it?  Just how long do you think Buzz will be here...25 years?  Besides, if poorer coach (less upside) and poorer recruiter can do it in 9 years, then certainly......

You get the idea.  This is why I laugh so much at you when you get all hot and bothered by so called double standards when you spew them out daily with your posts.  You have so many double standards it's hard to count them all.  Keep up the good work.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Thank you for your predictability.    One point.   Fluff....hypothesis.....ok.   And then ask how do I know that the team with Taylor along with the amigos wouldn't have been better.   I don't.  And neither do you. 

Correct, I don't know...that's why I said "I suspect they would have done just as well".  Just my opinion, but we don't know.

Yes, my predictability is grounded in the facts....that's what makes it predictable.  I think Buzz has a great upside and a solid future.  These very same impressions were said about Crean in years 3 and 4, I'd remind you, by some of the very same people saying them now about Buzz.  A bit of irony there I'd suspect. 

We'll know a lot more in a few years, but I haven't seen any evidence (certainly not this year) to suggest he is a better coach...doesn't mean he isn't, but I'm trying to deal with facts, not what ifs and maybes.  Hell, what if McNeal didn't break his arm.  What if DJ didn't hurt.  Etc, etc.  Right now, jury is still out but I'm open solid evidence to refute it, I just didn't think you presented that evidence in my opinion. 

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I find it comical that some here are so concerned about Buzz this year, and loudly trying to beat the panic drum - lost 2nd half leads, suspect defense, etc. - just because we went 9-9 in the Big East, as did 2 Top 25 nationally ranked, signature programs - UCONN and NOVA. 

I felt the EXACT same way last season, but bizarro. I mean, I liked the job Buzz did, but I wasn't ready to make bold predictions about his fantastic coaching abilities and MU's bright future like some others were. I know you and I battled about that. I wasn't ready to proclaim a future final 4 after 2 seasons. Not enough data. Its the same thing yo are saying now.

Let's face it, some people were a little too excited last season, and some people are a little too negative right now. I know that's a boring answer, but it's the truth. This year has been fun and frustrating, no doubt. Next season will be the real test. If MU is 9-9, Ners, you will be hating the internet.

Back to your regularly schedule Chico's debate(s).