The ESPN college basketball home page has this:
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/
Rumors: The status of Indiana's rebuilding
It links to the ESPN insider page which says this:
http://insider.espn.go.com/ncb/features/rumors?&action=upsell&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fncb%2ffeatures%2frumors#2024
The Hoosier rebuilding report
11:41AM ET
Indiana Hoosiers
Crean is battling to bring back the Crimson and Cream.
Subscribe to Insider for as low as $2.50/month to access the complete rumor insider
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I don't have an account so I don't know what it says. But the use of the words "current status" and "battling to" suggests that all might not be well in Bloomington.
Anyone have access, know what is going on? A Google search turned up nothing.
P.S. Please save all of us the 20 posts that "Crean is dead to you" and "who cares." Just ignore this thread.
It's ultimately a puff piece. Since its paid content I wont post the whole thing but it starts like this:
As Tom Crean continues to rebuild an Indiana team decimated by NCAA rulings, his recruits follow a pattern of sorts. They're "scrappy", "solid" or "tweeners". Sometimes all three at once. That means they look like a good mid-major squad instead of the all-time elite powerhouse they have been in the past, and aim to be again.
It goes on to say these recruits will be stop-gaps getting IU in right direction before ending like this:
It's asking way too much to see vast improvement in the Hoosiers just yet, but this year's recruiting class is a nice incremental step toward an eventual return to glory in Bloomington.
Crean needs to get over .500 this year minimum to get a 4th year in Bloomington in my opinion and maybe .500 in the Big Ten. If he does get a 4th year and doesn't crack the top 5 in he Big Ten after that 4th year, he'll be looking for work elsewhere.
Quote from: TedBaxter on May 14, 2010, 09:39:24 PM
Crean needs to get over .500 this year minimum to get a 4th year in Bloomington in my opinion and maybe .500 in the Big Ten. If he does get a 4th year and doesn't crack the top 5 in he Big Ten after that 4th year, he'll be looking for work elsewhere.
He will get over .500 this year. All he has to do is have his team improve 6 games in the win column. They likely would have been .500 this year if not for the loss of their best player to injury. I'd say 17-15 this year or somewhere in that realm.
This years class will be an incremental step towards an eventual return to glory? Are you kidding two 3 star recruits and a 2 star. No top 100 recruits is not an incremental step towards glory those guys are Acker/Burke/Cubi type recruits roster fillers and kids that can make the team but building blocks towards glory? Please Crean signed a terrible class by "elite program" standards
I think Crean's deficiencies are coming to light at IU. He is a very inconsistent recruiter and doesn't bring much dynamic to game management. I'm not sure why he can't get more top-level players to come to that storied program. He has all the playing time in the world to offer, which Buzz seems to have used to attract some elite talent. And Indiana produces so much high school talent. He just needs to recruit his state and he's have a power. I would laugh if we got a top-10 guy out of Indiana (Dawson).
That being said, I think it would be unfair to not give him 4 years to turn things around, considering where that program was. Not like I'd lose any sleep over it, just sayin...
Crean at UWM would be a great series. Its Milwaukee, Milwaukee...
Canadian Dimes and others should watch what they wish for... Crean gave Buzz the opportunity at the head coaching job at MU, the least Buzz could do is hire him as head assistant ;)
If that were to ever happen, it would be my favorite day on this board
Crean has been a "colossal" disappointment...
He is "not" a "good" x's n o's coach....
He is "not" a good recruiter.........
He is "full' of chit................... ;D
He fooled me, ....... he talks the talk... but does not come near to walking the walk...
IU just signed the 66th ranked JUCO player in the nation.... ????????? ?-(
I an on the get rid of TC time clock but he will get a lot more than most are willing.....
Quote from: CrimsonNCrean on May 15, 2010, 02:19:38 AM
Crean has been a "colossal" disappointment...
He is "not" a "good" x's n o's coach....
He is "not" a good recruiter.........
He is "full' of chit................... ;D
He fooled me, ....... he talks the talk... but does not come near to walking the walk...
IU just signed the 66th ranked JUCO player in the nation.... ????????? ?-(
I an on the get rid of TC time clock but he will get a lot more than most are willing.....
Haha oh boy here we go... In all honesty he was great for MU, but I had a feeling I wouldn't be shocked to hear this after a few seasons from the IU faithful. He does talk the talk, and is good at it, but he in not a top tier recruiter and apparently the Indiana "name" isnt helping him much. Its obvious that "Its Indiana" is overrated, because that would help him land much better classes. I also thought he made some poor in game adjustments as well, but I see that at times from Coach Williams as well.
Atleast Buzz got the #1 JUCO in the nation, to go along with a few top 5 JUCOs the last few seasons ;D
Quote from: mudimitri on May 15, 2010, 02:33:19 AM
Haha oh boy here we go... In all honesty he was great for MU, but I had a feeling I wouldn't be shocked to hear this after a few seasons from the IU faithful. He does talk the talk, and is good at it, but he in not a top tier recruiter and apparently the Indiana "name" isnt helping him much. Its obvious that "Its Indiana" is overrated, because that would help him land much better classes. I also thought he made some poor in game adjustments as well, but I see that at times from Coach Williams as well.
Atleast Buzz got the #1 JUCO in the nation, to go along with a few top 5 JUCOs the last few seasons ;D
:(
For Crean to be a success at Indiana by their standards, he will need to finish the season better.
His teams are always better in Nov, Dec, Jan, than in Feb & March. Works the hell out of them. Al told him to never forget that he's dealing with human beings, but TC is so intense he treats them like they were machines.
Quote from: brewnewsman on May 14, 2010, 08:50:53 PM
It's ultimately a puff piece. Since its paid content I wont post the whole thing but it starts like this:
....
It's asking way too much to see vast improvement in the Hoosiers just yet, but this year's recruiting class is a nice incremental step toward an eventual return to glory in Bloomington.
It appears the purpose of this puff piece is for Crean and/or the IU administration to explain themselves to the IU faithful to keep the mob forming outside their door. The only question is how big a favor did they have to call in to get it written?
Quote from: TedBaxter on May 14, 2010, 09:39:24 PM
Crean needs to get over .500 this year minimum to get a 4th year in Bloomington in my opinion and maybe .500 in the Big Ten. If he does get a 4th year and doesn't crack the top 5 in he Big Ten after that 4th year, he'll be looking for work elsewhere.
The fact of the matter is that IU gave him an extension before he even coached a game because more guys left the program than they were expecting. He has a 10 year contract. There is ZERO chance that IU gives up on him before the end of the 5th season, and probably not til after the 6th, too.
It's on two levels. 1) They gave him the extension as a sign of faith, saying "we know it will take a while, so don't worry." Canning him after 4 years just means that whatever coach they bring in to replace him can't trust the administration. 2) They can't afford to cough up 6 years worth of salary while paying someone else (and probably paying the new guy even more) to actually coach the team.
He basically had to start a B10 program from scratch. Impossible to do overnight, unless you do it Calipari style, which simply does not fly with Hoosiernation. I am currently completely ambivalent toward Crean, but to expect any coach to build a program from rubble in a BCS conference in 2-3 years without cheating is simply unreasonable. I'm not saying he can/can't, I am saying that it won't be fair to judge for another 3 years.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on May 15, 2010, 07:02:20 AM
It appears the purpose of this puff piece is for Crean and/or the IU administration to explain themselves to the IU faithful to keep the mob forming outside their door. The only question is how big a favor did they have to call in to get it written?
We have a winner!!
Crean's on the verge of losing control and losing the faith of Hoosier fans who have gotten wise to him much quicker than MU fans.
Quote from: CrimsonNCrean on May 15, 2010, 02:19:38 AM
Crean has been a "colossal" disappointment...
He is "not" a "good" x's n o's coach....
He is "not" a good recruiter.........
He is "full' of chit................... ;D
He fooled me, ....... he talks the talk... but does not come near to walking the walk...
IU just signed the 66th ranked JUCO player in the nation.... ????????? ?-(
I don't know why you were fooled. Had you read this board on April 1, 2008, you would have read first hand what some of us had known since 2003.
I an on the get rid of TC time clock but he will get a lot more than most are willing.....
Quote from: tower912 on May 15, 2010, 08:29:48 AM
He basically had to start a B10 program from scratch. Impossible to do overnight, unless you do it Calipari style, which simply does not fly with Hoosiernation. I am currently completely ambivalent toward Crean, but to expect any coach to build a program from rubble in a BCS conference in 2-3 years without cheating is simply unreasonable. I'm not saying he can/can't, I am saying that it won't be fair to judge for another 3 years.
Yeah right....they'd take Calipari and his success in a second.
I simply couldn't care one way or the other about this. We don't play Indiana. When I'm not on this board, I probably spend about as much time thinking about Crean as I do thinking about Deane or O'Neill. They were here, they aren't any more, they clearly moved on, don't see why we can't do the same.
I realize that this is an opinion board, but talking about Crean is yesterdays news.. He is gone, so let's forget about him. Bring back comments about a much more "colorful" MU coach, good catholic , MU alum and Wisconsin native----Rick Majerus.
Did anybody read his book from several years ago, My Life on a Napkin? Should have been entitled My Life at the Dinner Table.
Speaking of tables, they should have an auction for the Pitino/Cypher table!
Like Gillespie found out, life without Buzz at your side is tough. ;)
Recruiting is tough, but Crean signed with IU while the next class was in their soph year of high school. That is a little behind, but not much. There is no way that this 2010 recruiting class is what anyone would have predicted. Even those of us who criticized Crean for not recruiting depth at MU would not have guessed this type of recruiting.
Quote from: avid1010 on May 15, 2010, 09:35:58 AM
Yeah right....they'd take Calipari and his success in a second.
Yep.
There wasn't much protest from the IU faithful when the school hired Kelvin Sampson, and especially not after he started landing kids like Eric Gordon and Jordan Crawford. They were more than happy to have him, as long as he landed the players and won games. Sampson's act only started to anger Indiana fans when it got them in trouble with the NCAA.
TC needs to recruit a lot better. I still think the guy can coach but his recruiting is suffering,
Quote from: avid1010 on May 15, 2010, 09:35:58 AM
Yeah right....they'd take Calipari and his success in a second.
Not after the Sampson ordeal they wouldn't. Prior to that, yes, but because they were burned so badly, not a chance in hell.
Quote from: Stone Cold on May 15, 2010, 10:24:15 AM
TC needs to recruit a lot better. I still think the guy can coach but his recruiting is suffering,
+1
Crean thought what was holding him back from getting the 5 star recruit was MU. By going to Indiana, he thought he was correcting this problem. However, all it has done is expose the ugly truth ... it is Tom Crean's abilites that are holding back the 5-star recruit, not the institution that employs him.
Even worse, a young and dynamic Painter at Purdue, America's favorite underdog in Butler, ND coached by MILF hunter Brey all means that it will be harder for IU to attract attention to themself at home. And this does not include Louisville (just over the boarder).
What Crean needs to get over the hump is have a team
way out perfrom expectations. Show he can coach and create some buzz about the program. The problem is the opposite is happening. His teams under perfrom and then quit on him.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on May 15, 2010, 10:46:33 AM
+1
Crean thought what was holding him back from getting the 5 star recruit was MU. By going to Indiana, he thought he was correcting this problem. However, all it has done is expose the ugly truth ... it is Tom Crean's abilites that are holding back the 5-star recruit, not the institution that employs him.
Even worse, a young and dynamic Painter at Purdue, America's favorite underdog in Butler, ND coached by MILF hunter Brey all means that it will be harder for IU to attract attention to themself at home. And this does not include Louisville (just over the boarder).
What Crean needs to get over the hump is have a team way out perfrom expectations. Show he can coach and create some buzz about the program. The problem is the opposite is happening. His teams under perfrom and then quit on him.
And what do you think expectations were the last two years? His first year they were picked last. That's where they finished. His second year they were picked 2nd to last, that's where they finished. This year they will likely be picked 8th, maybe 7th and that's likely where they will finish.
I had to laugh at your last sentence. You obviously didn't watch his first IU team if you think they quit on him, yet you clearly said "team
s" so you had to be talking about both.
Jury is very much out, he has to continue to show improvement which is what he's done so far with his teams. 1 Big Ten win the first year. 4 Big Ten wins this past year. He'll probably get 7 or 8 this coming year.
At the end of the day, he's in a conference that is stable (not like MU's), he is at the flagship school in the state, he has a long contract, a brand new state of the art practice facility just opened up, a new arena will coming at some point....he took the job he thought would allow him to get to where he wanted....something I would remind you that every other MU coach in the last few decades also left MU to take what they thought was a BETTER JOB.
Crean will make it through five years at the least to finish cleaning up the mess. He has made some mistakes, though, that he needs to dig out from and quickly.
- McLeod was a major mistake and could set his recruiting back a couple of years. Crean needs to nail in-state 2011--a strong class
- Unlike Buzz, he should have gone more JUCO to balance his classes
- Like at MU, he settled at the end of recruiting periods for bigs who cannot play in the B10
- Pritchard, who looked good freshman year, is not developing under Crean. No surprise
- Baby Doc is a cancer on the team
- Losing Nick Williams hurt him last season, especially on D and the boards
- The 2010 recruiting class will not help IU get to the next level in any of the upcoming four years
As someone who lives in Indiana, I can say that the jury is definately still out on Crean, but IU fans are still giving him the benefit of the doubt. And IU isn't getting out recruited by anyone else in Indiana except Purdue. Butler gets the next tier of recruits...Notre Dame isn't even in the picture.
I think you guys fail to understand how bad it was when Sampson left...and that Crean lost his best recruit when he went down with an injury last year. He's not going to bring them back to the NCAA championship, but he will eventually get them to the NCAA tournament on a regular basis.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 15, 2010, 11:02:27 AM
And what do you think expectations were the last two years? His first year they were picked last. That's where they finished. His second year they were picked 2nd to last, that's where they finished. This year they will likely be picked 8th, maybe 7th and that's likely where they will finish.
I had to laugh at your last sentence. You obviously didn't watch his first IU team if you think they quit on him, yet you clearly said "teams" so you had to be talking about both.
Jury is very much out, he has to continue to show improvement which is what he's done so far with his teams. 1 Big Ten win the first year. 4 Big Ten wins this past year. He'll probably get 7 or 8 this coming year.
At the end of the day, he's in a conference that is stable (not like MU's), he is at the flagship school in the state, he has a long contract, a brand new state of the art practice facility just opened up, a new arena will coming at some point....he took the job he thought would allow him to get to where he wanted....something I would remind you that every other MU coach in the last few decades also left MU to take what they thought was a BETTER JOB.
Ok, I stand corrected. Only last year's team quit. But, in quitting that means they under preformed. You cannot perform within expectations if your team quits.
So, the reason 5-star recruits will not commit to IU is the have a lousy practice facility? Seems I heard this argument about 8 years ago ... once the AL was built big time recruits were suppose to beat a path to Milwaukee. That did happen, after Crean left and Buzz took over.
Chicos ... it's not working out in IU. Crean can still turn it around, but
so far he's been a bust and the IU faithful know it. We'll see if he's a really cool practice building away from competing for the national championship.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on May 15, 2010, 11:35:07 AM
As someone who lives in Indiana, I can say that the jury is definately still out on Crean, but IU fans are still giving him the benefit of the doubt. And IU isn't getting out recruited by anyone else in Indiana except Purdue. Butler gets the next tier of recruits...Notre Dame isn't even in the picture.
I think you guys fail to understand how bad it was when Sampson left...and that Crean lost his best recruit when he went down with an injury last year. He's not going to bring them back to the NCAA championship, but he will eventually get them to the NCAA tournament on a regular basis.
Defining the goals lower. Two years ago, Crean was suppose to get them to the Duke, UNC, Kansas level. Now he's a success if he wins 20 and lose in the first round of a 96 team tourney?
Why leave MU, he was doing more here than what you define as success at IU.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on May 15, 2010, 11:42:26 AM
Defining the goals lower. Two years ago, Crean was suppose to get them to the Duke, UNC, Kansas level. Now he's a success if he wins 20 and lose in the first round of a 96 team tourney?
Why leave MU, he was doing more here than what you define as success at IU.
The goal posts have definitely moved for Crean. I think that his expectations are IU were what disappointed a lot of the MU faithful. The IU fanbase thought that if he could take "that little school" to success, then he is probably a genius. Crean never said anything bad about MU so he is not responsible for that. But Crean was supposed to make everyone forget about Bob Knight, and everyone at MU knew that was untrue. The fear of a Licklighter experience would keep the administration from getting rid of Crean if he made the tourney 3 out of 5 years like he was doing.
But, we struck oil with Buzz. Crean got paid big time and got back to the Big Ten. You can't feel bad about a millionaire coach taking heat if it doesn't get personal and is always about his job. He took the job, and is going to take heat at IU, Big Ten schools, and Marquette.
I'm not sure how much better they are going to be in the Big Ten next year.
Purdue, Mich St., Illinois, basically lose nothing. Wisconsin and Minnesota will at least be decent again. Ohio St. loses their best player but brings in a Top 5 recruiting class. Northwestern will make a serious run at the tournament. That leaves Michigan, Penn State, IU, and Iowa.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on May 15, 2010, 11:42:26 AM
Defining the goals lower. Two years ago, Crean was suppose to get them to the Duke, UNC, Kansas level. Now he's a success if he wins 20 and lose in the first round of a 96 team tourney?
Why leave MU, he was doing more here than what you define as success at IU.
First of all, your continued use of exaggeration undermines your arguments. The tournament isn't 96 teams.
Second, I never said "lose in the first round." I said "get them to the tournament on a regular basis."
Finally, no one said that he was going to get them to the "Duke, UNC, Kansas level." If you can find quotes to prove me wrong, I will stand corrected.
The Crean Bashers continued use of hyperbole really is humorous because it does more to harm their arguments than help.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on May 15, 2010, 01:30:28 PM
First of all, your continued use of exaggeration undermines your arguments. The tournament isn't 96 teams.
Second, I never said "lose in the first round." I said "get them to the tournament on a regular basis."
Finally, no one said that he was going to get them to the "Duke, UNC, Kansas level." If you can find quotes to prove me wrong, I will stand corrected.
The Crean Bashers continued use of hyperbole really is humorous because it does more to harm their arguments than help.
"Get them to the tournament on a regular basis" means that it is acceptable to lose in the first round. And since the Tourney will expand to 96 before IU makes it again (expansion seems most likely 2012), my statement seems to be fairly accurate. I'll grant that you probably meant losing in the second round of a 96 team tourney so I'll give you that.
Yes, many IU faithful expected Crean to return IU to the Bob Knight version of IU. That means they would be in the UNC, Duke Kansas elite level. You may choose to misremember but that was what "Crimson & Crean" was all about. No exaggeration here either.
Quote from: mudimitri on May 15, 2010, 02:14:56 AM
Canadian Dimes and others should watch what they wish for... Crean gave Buzz the opportunity at the head coaching job at MU, the least Buzz could do is hire him as head assistant ;)
If that were to ever happen, it would be my favorite day on this board
that's good stuff !! ...and tommy boy, when you're done handing out towels, someone blurped in the latrine
p.s. haven't seen any of his players walkin around with a cast on their knuckles...yet... ;D
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on May 15, 2010, 11:35:07 AM
I think you guys fail to understand how bad it was when Sampson left...and that Crean lost his best recruit when he went down with an injury last year. He's not going to bring them back to the NCAA championship, but he will eventually get them to the NCAA tournament on a regular basis.
I think some MU fans fail to realize how bad it was at MU after Crean left (once the Big 3 graduated) Of course we got 1 year with the Big 3 - but after that, all that was left was basically Lazar, Mo, and Cooby. Both Crean and Buzz were in year 2 of their tenure - Buzz had the above 3 players, and nothing else. Buzz lost his Top 2 recruits - one to injury and one to transfer. Also lost his starting center. (So Crean lost his top-rated recruit?) Yet, somehow, Buzz guided us to a 5th place finish in Big East and 22 wins, and damn near a Sweet 16 birth (if you extrapolate that MU would have beat New Mexico, considering how Washington destroyed them.)
Quote from: Ners on May 15, 2010, 05:22:48 PM
I think some MU fans fail to realize how bad it was at MU after Crean left (once the Big 3 graduated) Of course we got 1 year with the Big 3 - but after that, all that was left was basically Lazar, Mo, and Cooby. Both Crean and Buzz were in year 2 of their tenure - Buzz had the above 3 players, and nothing else. Buzz lost his Top 2 recruits - one to injury and one to transfer. Also lost his starting center. (So Crean lost his top-rated recruit?) Yet, somehow, Buzz guided us to a 5th place finish in Big East and 22 wins, and damn near a Sweet 16 birth (if you extrapolate that MU would have beat New Mexico, considering how Washington destroyed them.)
I don't like taking the Lords name in vein, but Jesus. I agreed with almost everything you said, and it was all a legitimate sound argument until that....
Do not start with EXTRAPOLATING to argue for the closeness of sweet 16 births please... It just makes you look desperate to defend your boy Buzz at any cost, which I'm certain is the reason why you butt heads with anyone that says anything slightly negative about the cat. MU lost to Washington and thats that- had they have beaten Washington there is absolutely NO WAY u could say they would have beaten NM because of how they played against UW, unless you are looking to give Buzz credit where there is absolutely none due
Since you put it that way, if we EXTRAPOLATE on Buzz' success at end game situations, MU will never reach the Final 4 because there will inevitably be a close game in the first 4 before getting there (unless of course Buzz is so good that MU blows everyone out by 20)... Good grief
Quote from: mudimitri on May 15, 2010, 05:50:41 PM
Since you put it that way, if we EXTRAPOLATE on Buzz' success at end game situations, MU will never reach the Final 4 because there will inevitably be a close game in the first 4 before getting there (unless of course Buzz is so good that MU blows everyone out by 20)... Good grief
If you want to talk smack, please do so in a way that doesn't make you look like an idiot. Buzz was 8-8 last year in games decided by 4 points or less. Considering the lack of depth and size on last year's team, due to the departure of Crean and his recruits - Scotty C, Mbawke, Nick Williams, Ty Taylor, etc...as well as the injuries to Cadougan, Otule and the transfer of Maymon - it was pretty damn good that MU finished 8-8 in games decided by less than 4. Given the size and depth issues that plagued us last year, the fact we did exactly what probability says we should do - speaks volumes about last years team. Our guys were gassed at the end of games due to all of them almost playing 35+ minutes. (You'll probably counter that it is because of this that Buzz didn't do a good job with substitutions, etc. - but 80% of Zar/Jimmy is probably better than what Erik Williams as a freshman could provide.)
Quote from: Ners on May 15, 2010, 06:08:00 PM
If you want to talk smack, please do so in a way that doesn't make you look like an idiot. Buzz was 8-8 last year in games decided by 4 points or less. Considering the lack of depth and size on last year's team, due to the departure of Crean and his recruits - Scotty C, Mbawke, Nick Williams, Ty Taylor, etc...as well as the injuries to Cadougan, Otule and the transfer of Maymon - it was pretty damn good that MU finished 8-8 in games decided by less than 4. Given the size and depth issues that plagued us last year, the fact we did exactly what probability says we should do - speaks volumes about last years team. Our guys were gassed at the end of games due to all of them almost playing 35+ minutes. (You'll probably counter that it is because of this that Buzz didn't do a good job with substitutions, etc. - but 80% of Zar/Jimmy is probably better than what Erik Williams as a freshman could provide.)
ANYONE who watched the games last season knows that the team did not have it in end of the game situations. Leads were blown multiple times, and as exciting and unexpected as the success was the team was wrenched with heartache. This even went back to the prior season with the Big 3. There is a reason why multiple people wondered if the team and Buzz were snakebitten. If you can honestly find a handfull of Marquette fans that has any confidence in the last 5 minutes of the Washington game I will applaud you. I guarantee you I can find many more fans that had the "here we go again" feeling...
Now, you can sugarcoat it all you want, you always do. You can blame Crean all you want, you always do (Its funny that the depth was all creans fault because his recruits left, but none of Buzz's even though his star recruit left). Noone is doubting that the team overachieved with what was there, and for that Buzz deserves credit. However, noone can doubt that the team blew too many leads and lost too many close games. You can argue why that is (lack of depth, gassed, just not good enough, etc etc) but you cannot argue who the coach was and that he shoulders some of the blame.
Unless of course its Buzz Williams in your eyes...
PS. If we extrapolate on the first half, MU should have beaten FSU by 40
Quote from: Ners on May 15, 2010, 06:08:00 PM
If you want to talk smack, please do so in a way that doesn't make you look like an idiot. Buzz was 8-8 last year in games decided by 4 points or less. Considering the lack of depth and size on last year's team, due to the departure of Crean and his recruits - Scotty C, Mbawke, Nick Williams, Ty Taylor, etc...as well as the injuries to Cadougan, Otule and the transfer of Maymon - it was pretty damn good that MU finished 8-8 in games decided by less than 4. Given the size and depth issues that plagued us last year, the fact we did exactly what probability says we should do - speaks volumes about last years team. Our guys were gassed at the end of games due to all of them almost playing 35+ minutes. (You'll probably counter that it is because of this that Buzz didn't do a good job with substitutions, etc. - but 80% of Zar/Jimmy is probably better than what Erik Williams as a freshman could provide.)
It's cute to see you try so hard.
Enjoy the rest of the weekend.
Quote from: HoopsMalone on May 15, 2010, 10:17:27 AM
Like Gillespie found out, life without Buzz at your side is tough. ;)
Recruiting is tough, but Crean signed with IU while the next class was in their soph year of high school. That is a little behind, but not much. There is no way that this 2010 recruiting class is what anyone would have predicted. Even those of us who criticized Crean for not recruiting depth at MU would not have guessed this type of recruiting.
that is a very good point, Buzz is proving to be a very good coach.... he is out recruiting Crean already...
TC is just a snake oil salesman... I understood the program rebuild would take "time"... BUT.... Crean's team last season got A LOT WORSE AT YEAR END THAN THEY WERE AT THE START OF THE SEASON.. (and they did beat Mich and Minn. without Mo Creek)
He lost the team, for whatever reason? If it happens again this year then he is done at IU...
All of the in state talent are watching Crean and IU RIGHT NOW.... this year is crucial to Crean's long term success at IU...
If he loses Zeller and Davis he is a lame duck.... oh and by the way... he has burnt all his schollies for the 2011 recruiting season as of right now... >:(
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 15, 2010, 11:02:27 AM
And what do you think expectations were the last two years? His first year they were picked last. That's where they finished. His second year they were picked 2nd to last, that's where they finished. This year they will likely be picked 8th, maybe 7th and that's likely where they will finish.
I had to laugh at your last sentence. You obviously didn't watch his first IU team if you think they quit on him, yet you clearly said "teams" so you had to be talking about both.
Jury is very much out, he has to continue to show improvement which is what he's done so far with his teams. 1 Big Ten win the first year. 4 Big Ten wins this past year. He'll probably get 7 or 8 this coming year.
At the end of the day, he's in a conference that is stable (not like MU's), he is at the flagship school in the state, he has a long contract, a brand new state of the art practice facility just opened up, a new arena will coming at some point....he took the job he thought would allow him to get to where he wanted....something I would remind you that every other MU coach in the last few decades also left MU to take what they thought was a BETTER JOB.
Chico... nobody at IU expected 20 win seasons.... but we did expect a team to "develop" and "play hard" every single night.... and IU, the last 11 or 12 games,... did NOT do either...
IU got dramatically worse by year end.. and Crean allowed the same players to make the same silly mistakes game in, game out...
It only took Tommy until the last regular season game to finally BENCH J Rivers... it should have happened 12 games earlier...
There are no unrealistic expectations at IU..... but IU fans do expect better than the 145the and 149th ranked rivals prospects, and the 66th ranked JUCO player in the nation in year 3 of the rebuild............. I mean this man offered D Williams after watching ONE workout....... a 1 star role player from Atlanta... and later rescinded the offer... making him look like an idiot....
All signs simply point to TC being a fraud... but he still has time... and he needs to make the most of it...
Quote from: mudimitri on May 15, 2010, 06:37:44 PM
ANYONE who watched the games last season knows that the team did not have it in end of the game situations. Leads were blown multiple times, and as exciting and unexpected as the success was the team was wrenched with heartache. This even went back to the prior season with the Big 3. There is a reason why multiple people wondered if the team and Buzz were snakebitten. If you can honestly find a handfull of Marquette fans that has any confidence in the last 5 minutes of the Washington game I will applaud you. I guarantee you I can find many more fans that had the "here we go again" feeling...
Now, you can sugarcoat it all you want, you always do. You can blame Crean all you want, you always do (Its funny that the depth was all creans fault because his recruits left, but none of Buzz's even though his star recruit left). Noone is doubting that the team overachieved with what was there, and for that Buzz deserves credit. However, noone can doubt that the team blew too many leads and lost too many close games. You can argue why that is (lack of depth, gassed, just not good enough, etc etc) but you cannot argue who the coach was and that he shoulders some of the blame.
Unless of course its Buzz Williams in your eyes...
PS. If we extrapolate on the first half, MU should have beaten FSU by 40
Last year was a case of near cardiac arrest every game - no one disputes that. If you couldn't see that MU was completely gassed against FSU in the 2nd half, or Georgetown in the Big East tourney - situations where the team was playing games 3 striaght nights - you are an idiot...which it is becoming more and more evident you are. In your entire reply above not once do you address the fact last year's team went 8-8 in games decides by less than 4 points. What do you expect, an undersized, undermanned team, with no post threat to go 16-0 in games by less than 4 points? 12-4? I don't blame Crean for the thin roster left at MU after he left...but that was just the reality...and Buzz did a great job in dealing with that reality.
Quote from: CrimsonNCrean on May 15, 2010, 07:57:15 PM
Chico... nobody at IU expected 20 win seasons.... but we did expect a team to "develop" and "play hard" every single night.... and IU, the last 11 or 12 games,... did NOT do either...
IU got dramatically worse by year end.. and Crean allowed the same players to make the same silly mistakes game in, game out...
It only took Tommy until the last regular season game to finally BENCH J Rivers... it should have happened 12 games earlier...
There are no unrealistic expectations at IU..... but IU fans do expect better than the 145the and 149th ranked rivals prospects, and the 66th ranked JUCO player in the nation in year 3 of the rebuild............. I mean this man offered D Williams after watching ONE workout....... a 1 star role player from Atlanta... and later rescinded the offer... making him look like an idiot....
All signs simply point to TC being a fraud... but he still has time... and he needs to make the most of it...
Thanks for the honest comments CrimsonNCrean.
Quote from: mudimitri on May 15, 2010, 06:37:44 PM
Now, you can sugarcoat it all you want, you always do. You can blame Crean all you want, you always do (Its funny that the depth was all creans fault because his recruits left, but none of Buzz's even though his star recruit left). Noone is doubting that the team overachieved with what was there, and for that Buzz deserves credit. However, noone can doubt that the team blew too many leads and lost too many close games. You can argue why that is (lack of depth, gassed, just not good enough, etc etc) but you cannot argue who the coach was and that he shoulders some of the blame.
Unless of course its Buzz Williams in your eyes...
PS. If we extrapolate on the first half, MU should have beaten FSU by 40
To be honest, I don't think your belief that Buzz is a bad end of the game coach is any better supported than a belief that MU could have beaten NM. The fact that you use MU fan majority as a basis for your argument is weak. I also don't feel that MU lost too many close games, they won as many as they lost.
PS. If we extrapolate on the first half, MU and Villanova should still be playing in the BEAST tourney as we speak, or they should have lost to Cincy by 12 rather than winning by 3.
Quote from: Ners on May 15, 2010, 08:33:52 PM
Last year was a case of near cardiac arrest every game - no one disputes that. If you couldn't see that MU was completely gassed against FSU in the 2nd half, or Georgetown in the Big East tourney - situations where the team was playing games 3 striaght nights - you are an idiot...which it is becoming more and more evident you are. In your entire reply above not once do you address the fact last year's team went 8-8 in games decides by less than 4 points. What do you expect, an undersized, undermanned team, with no post threat to go 16-0 in games by less than 4 points? 12-4? I don't blame Crean for the thin roster left at MU after he left...but that was just the reality...and Buzz did a great job in dealing with that reality.
I am an idiot? Half of the people around here call you an idiot, but Ill take your word for it. You can use numbers all you want, but the fact of the matter is that many of those close wins were blown leads:
GTown- Close throughout
UConn- MU up 43-33 in the 2nd half and had the lead basically the entire game until the 7 minute mark, wins by 2
Providence- MU up 8 78-70 with 2 minutes left, wins by 3
Cincy- Close throughout
St Johns- Close throughout
SH- MU up 34-26 at halftime and 78-71 with 1:43 left in OT, wins by 1
St Johns @ MSG- MU up 27-17 at half, close throughout the 2nd half, wins by 2
Nova- MU down slightly most of the game, up 65-57 with 4:54 left, wins by 4
Oh and some of those close losses were huge blown leads as well:
FSU- MU up 30-18 at half, 40-26 in 2nd half and still up 10 with 10 mins left, lose by 1
NCSt- MU up 36-25 at half, lose by 4
WVU- MU up 62-57 with 1 minute left, lose by 1
DePaul- MU up nearly entire game (by 6 at half) and 50-46 with 20 sec left, lose by 1
ND- MU up 42-33 with 12:40 left in the game, up 50-43 with 1:19 left, lose in OT by 3
Washington- MU up 60-45 with 13:58 left and we know the rest
So there were 5 of those close wins, and 6 of the close losses where MU had a big double digit lead at halftime or some point in the second half. Also, there were unfortunately quite a few with pretty good leads in the final 5 or even 1-2 minutes of the game.
Clearly this is going to play right into your "undersized, undermaned" theory, and fall back on Crean leaving the cupboard bare. This is gonna prove that super Buzz took pathetic little MU and miraculously had them up in those games. AGAIN, I am NOT saying the team didn't overachieve. I am also not doubting that they were probably gassed in some of those games. HOWEVER, unlike you, I believe Buzz deserves some of that blame (as most reasonable people would). If you see a pattern and assume its because your team is gassed (which btw he repeatedly denied) you play some of your "scraps" by necessity so that guys are fresh. Also, many of these blown leads are at the beginning of the 2nd half, and within the last 2 minutes, areas directly involved with important coaching decisions
The fact of the matter is, and I have said this the entire season, as a young coach Buzz still has to prove he can get the most out of guys #7-10 on his roster. Also, he has yet to get over the hump with regards to blowing leads, especially in end game situations. Anyone with any basketball sense can see this, but only if they allow their Buzz hard-on to go limp for a few seconds.
Anyway, I am done arguing with you because you sir are a clown, and have wasted 30 minutes of my night
PS: My sincere apologies to every MU basketball fan for bringing up some of those heart wrenching losses, I am now ready for a drink
Quote from: MarkCharles on May 14, 2010, 10:12:25 PM
I think Crean's deficiencies are coming to light at IU. He is a very inconsistent recruiter and doesn't bring much dynamic to game management. I'm not sure why he can't get more top-level players to come to that storied program. He has all the playing time in the world to offer, which Buzz seems to have used to attract some elite talent. And Indiana produces so much high school talent. He just needs to recruit his state and he's have a power. I would laugh if we got a top-10 guy out of Indiana (Dawson).
That being said, I think it would be unfair to not give him 4 years to turn things around, considering where that program was. Not like I'd lose any sleep over it, just sayin...
He can't get "more top-level players" to come to that "storied" program because Indiana hasn't been considered a storied program for quite some time now. The Indiana of today isn't the same as it was when BK was there. These kids don't care about what happened "back in the day." These players today want instant gratification and instant success - which is why Kentucky, Duke, Michigan State and the other top teams of the last 8/9 years or so draw all the talent. Kind of liken it to the "flavor of the day" or the "flavor of the month." The same with Notre Dame - who cares what they did years ago....they aren't the same either. Both of these school's stars have faded over time ... the prestige has been long gone .......and I couldn't be happier.
Quote from: LovinLazar on May 15, 2010, 11:21:14 PM
He can't get "more top-level players" to come to that "storied" program because Indiana hasn't been considered a storied program for quite some time now. The Indiana of today isn't the same as it was when BK was there. These kids don't care about what happened "back in the day." These players today want instant gratification and instant success - which is why Kentucky, Duke, Michigan State and the other top teams of the last 8/9 years or so draw all the talent. Kind of liken it to the "flavor of the day" or the "flavor of the month." The same with Notre Dame - who cares what they did years ago....they aren't the same either. Both of these school's stars have faded over time ... the prestige has been long gone .......and I couldn't be happier.
This is sad but true. Buzz makes these recruits feel wanted and they can feel his religion for the game. He also has recent results with not much talent.
mudimitri, Ners. Any more name calling and you'll both get summer vacations compliments of MUScoop...
Quote from: LovinLazar on May 15, 2010, 11:21:14 PM
He can't get "more top-level players" to come to that "storied" program because Indiana hasn't been considered a storied program for quite some time now. The Indiana of today isn't the same as it was when BK was there. These kids don't care about what happened "back in the day." These players today want instant gratification and instant success - which is why Kentucky, Duke, Michigan State and the other top teams of the last 8/9 years or so draw all the talent. Kind of liken it to the "flavor of the day" or the "flavor of the month." The same with Notre Dame - who cares what they did years ago....they aren't the same either. Both of these school's stars have faded over time ... the prestige has been long gone .......and I couldn't be happier.
LOL.... The state of Indiana is and always will be a "hotbed" of high school basketball talent... and IU will always be "the" top state university. IU has
5 banners for a reason, and 2 of them were won by a coach other than the legendary RMK....
Mike "freaking" Davis nearly got one.... ;D
Just because you are obviously biased against IU, please do not underestimate the "brand"... IU will be back, it just will not happen under Tom Crean. The head BB coach at Indiana does not even need to leave the state to recruit and he would feild a Big Ten champion caliber team... (Crean has yet to figure this out tho.. ?)
Look me up in 20 years when Izzo and K are long gone from their schools.... they will fall right back where they always have been.... to being "average"...
UK, IU, NC, Kansas, and maybe UCLA..... they all represent
"tradition" .... that is something that does not ever fade away...
Quote from: CrimsonNCrean on May 16, 2010, 12:34:36 AM
LOL.... The state of Indiana is and always will be a "hotbed" of high school basketball talent... and IU will always be "the" top state university. IU has 5 banners for a reason, and 2 of them were won by a coach other than the legendary RMK.... Mike "freaking" Davis nearly got one.... ;D
Just because you are obviously biased against IU, please do not underestimate the "brand"... IU will be back, it just will not happen under Tom Crean. The head BB coach at Indiana does not even need to leave the state to recruit and he would feild a Big Ten champion caliber team... (Crean has yet to figure this out tho.. ?)
Look me up in 20 years when Izzo and K are long gone from their schools.... they will fall right back where they always have been.... to being "average"...
UK, IU, NC, Kansas, and maybe UCLA..... they all represent "tradition" .... that is something that does not ever fade away...
I can respect your thoughts on instate recruiting, but I disagree. Staying at home is not as big of a deal as it used to be. Kids play AAU and get exposed to lots of different styles of play. A kid from Indiana can go to UNC or even Florida and his family can see every single one of his games due to technology. IU definately needs to recruit nationally, as does every school if they think they will win the Big Ten consistently..
PRN, this is for you. :o
http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=170&f=2353&t=5948359 (http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=170&f=2353&t=5948359)
Quote from: Ners on May 15, 2010, 05:22:48 PM
I think some MU fans fail to realize how bad it was at MU after Crean left (once the Big 3 graduated) Of course we got 1 year with the Big 3 - but after that, all that was left was basically Lazar, Mo, and Cooby. Both Crean and Buzz were in year 2 of their tenure - Buzz had the above 3 players, and nothing else. Buzz lost his Top 2 recruits - one to injury and one to transfer. Also lost his starting center. (So Crean lost his top-rated recruit?) Yet, somehow, Buzz guided us to a 5th place finish in Big East and 22 wins, and damn near a Sweet 16 birth (if you extrapolate that MU would have beat New Mexico, considering how Washington destroyed them.)
Yes. For all those MU fans who fail to realize how bad it was, it is a wonder that Buzz even gave us the time of day when he was offered the job in 2008.
New Orleans was clearly a cakewalk compared to the bad, bad, bad situation at Marquette.
First, Buzz would only inherit the #1, #2, #4 and #9 all-time scorers, and the #4 all-time 3 point % shooter. It probably kept Buzz up for nights on end wondering how we would EVER put points on the board with that lack of scoring ability.
Further hampering Buzz was the disadvantage of already working for Marquette for a year. That meant that he lost out on the normal advantages that unfamiliarity with a school and program provide--like having to start over building recruiting ties, getting to know the returning players, evaluating their talents, etc. Its obviously a huge disadvantage to already know what your players can and can't do.
Its also a huge disadvantage that Buzz was already on the road recruiting for Marquette. All that time and effort in 2007 and 2008--completely wasted recruiting players for his former program, Marquette. He'd have to do an about face with all of them and convince them to consider playing for his new team, Marquette.
Furthermore, the classes were terribly unbalanced the day Buzz took over. 3 seniors about to graduate. 4 juniors. three sophomores, and three frosh. Could it be any more unbalanced? Everyone knows that good teams have exactly 3.25 players per class. What was that noise of 4 players in the junior class? Terrible--simply terrible situation with that imbalance.
It was made worse that those juniors had started. Damn, could Buzz's luck get any worse? Only 4 returning starters from a 25 win team? Are you kidding me? The hits just keep on coming--I'm sure Buzz looked at that roster and felt NOBODY could even play!!
All that meant is that Buzz had the HUGE disadvantage of having a full year to recruit. Everyone knows its far better to take a job in April and have to scramble to fill a roster by that fall.
And another HUGE disadvantage was having lots of minutes to hand out--just about the toughest situation for any coach to recruit for. Far better to try and bring in players when the playing time is at least two seasons away. Because all great players fully expect that need to spend a year or two on the bench before playing.
Further making things difficult for Buzz was the lack of impending NCAA penalties or sanctions. Everyone knows players line up to get into programs that will be ineligible for the NCAA tournament.
And Buzz really had to rebuild attendance. MU was only coming off its #1 all-time attendance year when he came on board. Terrible situation. Terrible. Fans had really completly given up on the program. It was a struggle to get students to games. People wore paper bags over their heads. You could hear a pin drop it was so quiet.
Yes, those sure were dark, dark days in 2008. Once has to wonder if Buzz spends sleepless nights wondering if he made the right decision leaving New Orleans, given the decidedly much worse situation at Marquette in 2008.
Quote from: Marquette84 on May 16, 2010, 01:25:14 AM
Yes. For all those MU fans who fail to realize how bad it was, it is a wonder that Buzz even gave us the time of day when he was offered the job in 2008.
New Orleans was clearly a cakewalk compared to the bad, bad, bad situation at Marquette.
So who was in a better situation going into last years season, Buzz or TC?
Quote from: Marquette84 on May 16, 2010, 01:25:14 AM
Yes. For all those MU fans who fail to realize how bad it was, it is a wonder that Buzz even gave us the time of day when he was offered the job in 2008.
New Orleans was clearly a cakewalk compared to the bad, bad, bad situation at Marquette.
First, Buzz would only inherit the #1, #2, #4 and #9 all-time scorers, and the #4 all-time 3 point % shooter. It probably kept Buzz up for nights on end wondering how we would EVER put points on the board with that lack of scoring ability.
Further hampering Buzz was the disadvantage of already working for Marquette for a year. That meant that he lost out on the normal advantages that unfamiliarity with a school and program provide--like having to start over building recruiting ties, getting to know the returning players, evaluating their talents, etc. Its obviously a huge disadvantage to already know what your players can and can't do.
Its also a huge disadvantage that Buzz was already on the road recruiting for Marquette. All that time and effort in 2007 and 2008--completely wasted recruiting players for his former program, Marquette. He'd have to do an about face with all of them and convince them to consider playing for his new team, Marquette.
Furthermore, the classes were terribly unbalanced the day Buzz took over. 3 seniors about to graduate. 4 juniors. three sophomores, and three frosh. Could it be any more unbalanced? Everyone knows that good teams have exactly 3.25 players per class. What was that noise of 4 players in the junior class? Terrible--simply terrible situation with that imbalance.
It was made worse that those juniors had started. Damn, could Buzz's luck get any worse? Only 4 returning starters from a 25 win team? Are you kidding me? The hits just keep on coming--I'm sure Buzz looked at that roster and felt NOBODY could even play!!
All that meant is that Buzz had the HUGE disadvantage of having a full year to recruit. Everyone knows its far better to take a job in April and have to scramble to fill a roster by that fall.
And another HUGE disadvantage was having lots of minutes to hand out--just about the toughest situation for any coach to recruit for. Far better to try and bring in players when the playing time is at least two seasons away. Because all great players fully expect that need to spend a year or two on the bench before playing.
Further making things difficult for Buzz was the lack of impending NCAA penalties or sanctions. Everyone knows players line up to get into programs that will be ineligible for the NCAA tournament.
And Buzz really had to rebuild attendance. MU was only coming off its #1 all-time attendance year when he came on board. Terrible situation. Terrible. Fans had really completly given up on the program. It was a struggle to get students to games. People wore paper bags over their heads. You could hear a pin drop it was so quiet.
Yes, those sure were dark, dark days in 2008. Once has to wonder if Buzz spends sleepless nights wondering if he made the right decision leaving New Orleans, given the decidedly much worse situation at Marquette in 2008.
You catch a lot of slack, but for those who do not understand what TC did while here, that review of what he left should suffice. In all honesty, and I love Buzz without a doubt, coach Williams was lucky to be discovered by Crean. He was also lucky to have a year to get to know the program, and then to get the job in such a great condition. To his credit, he has not let that luck get to him and is well deserved of the position
So, the credit goes to TC for bringing him to MU, those in charge of the hiring for recognizing a diamond in the rough, and Buzz for carrying the torch.... There you go, everyone should be happy
Game, Set, Match to Marquette84.
We all know the talent at MU was front loaded and once the Big three graduated there were a lot of holes for Buzz to fill with top talent, the kind he expects.
He walked into a great situation. But the year after we all thought the cupboard was bare in regards to talent. Buzz got a lot out of marginal talent which is a sign of a good coach, imo.
So there were challenges but also advantages going forward when Buzz took the job.
Quote from: Marquette84 on May 16, 2010, 01:25:14 AM
Yes. For all those MU fans who fail to realize how bad it was, it is a wonder that Buzz even gave us the time of day when he was offered the job in 2008.
New Orleans was clearly a cakewalk compared to the bad, bad, bad situation at Marquette.
First, Buzz would only inherit the #1, #2, #4 and #9 all-time scorers, and the #4 all-time 3 point % shooter. It probably kept Buzz up for nights on end wondering how we would EVER put points on the board with that lack of scoring ability.
Further hampering Buzz was the disadvantage of already working for Marquette for a year. That meant that he lost out on the normal advantages that unfamiliarity with a school and program provide--like having to start over building recruiting ties, getting to know the returning players, evaluating their talents, etc. Its obviously a huge disadvantage to already know what your players can and can't do.
Its also a huge disadvantage that Buzz was already on the road recruiting for Marquette. All that time and effort in 2007 and 2008--completely wasted recruiting players for his former program, Marquette. He'd have to do an about face with all of them and convince them to consider playing for his new team, Marquette.
Furthermore, the classes were terribly unbalanced the day Buzz took over. 3 seniors about to graduate. 4 juniors. three sophomores, and three frosh. Could it be any more unbalanced? Everyone knows that good teams have exactly 3.25 players per class. What was that noise of 4 players in the junior class? Terrible--simply terrible situation with that imbalance.
It was made worse that those juniors had started. Damn, could Buzz's luck get any worse? Only 4 returning starters from a 25 win team? Are you kidding me? The hits just keep on coming--I'm sure Buzz looked at that roster and felt NOBODY could even play!!
All that meant is that Buzz had the HUGE disadvantage of having a full year to recruit. Everyone knows its far better to take a job in April and have to scramble to fill a roster by that fall.
And another HUGE disadvantage was having lots of minutes to hand out--just about the toughest situation for any coach to recruit for. Far better to try and bring in players when the playing time is at least two seasons away. Because all great players fully expect that need to spend a year or two on the bench before playing.
Further making things difficult for Buzz was the lack of impending NCAA penalties or sanctions. Everyone knows players line up to get into programs that will be ineligible for the NCAA tournament.
And Buzz really had to rebuild attendance. MU was only coming off its #1 all-time attendance year when he came on board. Terrible situation. Terrible. Fans had really completly given up on the program. It was a struggle to get students to games. People wore paper bags over their heads. You could hear a pin drop it was so quiet.
Yes, those sure were dark, dark days in 2008. Once has to wonder if Buzz spends sleepless nights wondering if he made the right decision leaving New Orleans, given the decidedly much worse situation at Marquette in 2008.
Once again 84 twists the issue - Nobody denies Year 1 under Buzz was set-up to be easy, or well stocked with talent. Way to write a 12 paragraph rebuttal stating the freakin' obvious. What you don't really address is the disparity in performance between your boy TC and Buzz in Year 2 of their time at the head of their respective programs. To say that Buzz working as an assistant at MU gave him a HUGE advantage in recruiting when he got the job in late April of 2008, is a joke. Explain then, why Crean just signed the #66 rated JUCO player, well into his his 3rd year at IU? Is he still getting familiar with the IU brand?
Quote from: mudimitri on May 15, 2010, 10:52:33 PM
I am an idiot? Half of the people around here call you an idiot, but Ill take your word for it. You can use numbers all you want, but the fact of the matter is that many of those close wins were blown leads:
GTown- Close throughout
UConn- MU up 43-33 in the 2nd half and had the lead basically the entire game until the 7 minute mark, wins by 2
Providence- MU up 8 78-70 with 2 minutes left, wins by 3
Cincy- Close throughout
St Johns- Close throughout
SH- MU up 34-26 at halftime and 78-71 with 1:43 left in OT, wins by 1
St Johns @ MSG- MU up 27-17 at half, close throughout the 2nd half, wins by 2
Nova- MU down slightly most of the game, up 65-57 with 4:54 left, wins by 4
Oh and some of those close losses were huge blown leads as well:
FSU- MU up 30-18 at half, 40-26 in 2nd half and still up 10 with 10 mins left, lose by 1
NCSt- MU up 36-25 at half, lose by 4
WVU- MU up 62-57 with 1 minute left, lose by 1
DePaul- MU up nearly entire game (by 6 at half) and 50-46 with 20 sec left, lose by 1
ND- MU up 42-33 with 12:40 left in the game, up 50-43 with 1:19 left, lose in OT by 3
Washington- MU up 60-45 with 13:58 left and we know the rest
So there were 5 of those close wins, and 6 of the close losses where MU had a big double digit lead at halftime or some point in the second half. Also, there were unfortunately quite a few with pretty good leads in the final 5 or even 1-2 minutes of the game.
Clearly this is going to play right into your "undersized, undermaned" theory, and fall back on Crean leaving the cupboard bare. This is gonna prove that super Buzz took pathetic little MU and miraculously had them up in those games. AGAIN, I am NOT saying the team didn't overachieve. I am also not doubting that they were probably gassed in some of those games. HOWEVER, unlike you, I believe Buzz deserves some of that blame (as most reasonable people would). If you see a pattern and assume its because your team is gassed (which btw he repeatedly denied) you play some of your "scraps" by necessity so that guys are fresh. Also, many of these blown leads are at the beginning of the 2nd half, and within the last 2 minutes, areas directly involved with important coaching decisions
The fact of the matter is, and I have said this the entire season, as a young coach Buzz still has to prove he can get the most out of guys #7-10 on his roster. Also, he has yet to get over the hump with regards to blowing leads, especially in end game situations. Anyone with any basketball sense can see this, but only if they allow their Buzz hard-on to go limp for a few seconds.
Anyway, I am done arguing with you because you sir are a clown, and have wasted 30 minutes of my night
PS: My sincere apologies to every MU basketball fan for bringing up some of those heart wrenching losses, I am now ready for a drink
It is comedic that in your above example you reference 8 wins in close games, and olnly 6 losses. Guess what, teams make runs in basketball games too - are you going to extoll the great coaching of Buzz to where he got his team into the above mentioned leads? Probably not, nor would I be ridiculous enough to do so. Basketball is a game of runs. When you are under,manned, undersized, more than likely your 2nd half perfoermance will be less than your first half performance. And yes, Buzz did say the guys were gassed after the Georgetown game in the big East tourney. We'll see who looks like the idiot as the next 4 years move forward, but it sounds to me unless MU can dominate its opponent for all 40 minutes of a game, there will have been poor coaching to blame. Armchair guys like you who can coach a team better than the guys getting paid millions to do so crack me up. Lastly, sorry you took 30 minutes to write a rebuttal that falls flat on its face - must be drinking a little too much too often.
Quote from: Ners on May 16, 2010, 08:29:10 AM
Once again 84 twists the issue - Nobody denies Year 1 under Buzz was set-up to be easy, or well stocked with talent. Way to write a 12 paragraph rebuttal stating the freakin' obvious. What you don't really address is the disparity in performance between your boy TC and Buzz in Year 2 of their time at the head of their respective programs.
Buzz inherited three seniors that started pretty much all of last year.
Quote from: Ners on May 16, 2010, 08:29:10 AM
Once again 84 twists the issue - Nobody denies Year 1 under Buzz was set-up to be easy, or well stocked with talent. Way to write a 12 paragraph rebuttal stating the freakin' obvious. What you don't really address is the disparity in performance between your boy TC and Buzz in Year 2 of their time at the head of their respective programs. To say that Buzz working as an assistant at MU gave him a HUGE advantage in recruiting when he got the job in late April of 2008, is a joke. Explain then, why Crean just signed the #66 rated JUCO player, well into his his 3rd year at IU? Is he still getting familiar with the IU brand?
Be careful here, because with that logic Buzz will have to make the final 4 in his 4th season to compare to Crean, and we know that type of comparison isn't fair.
Factually, the team Buzz inherited had some holes, but probably wasn't as dire as you make it out to be. Lazar was a stud, there were some decent role players, and Mbakwe and Taylor were good players. Now, I'm not blaming Buzz for those players leaving, I'm just saying technically they were signed up for MU.
What TC does at IU doesn't retroactively make what he did at MU more/less impressive.
Quote from: mviale on May 15, 2010, 11:47:42 PM
This is sad but true. Buzz makes these recruits feel wanted and they can feel his religion for the game. He also has recent results with not much talent.
This is simply a ridiculous statement.
Quote from: 2002MUalum on May 16, 2010, 08:57:37 AM
Be careful here, because with that logic Buzz will have to make the final 4 in his 4th season to compare to Crean, and we know that type of comparison isn't fair.
Factually, the team Buzz inherited had some holes, but probably wasn't as dire as you make it out to be. Lazar was a stud, there were some decent role players, and Mbakwe and Taylor were good players. Now, I'm not blaming Buzz for those players leaving, I'm just saying technically they were signed up for MU.
What TC does at IU doesn't retroactively make what he did at MU more/less impressive.
Actually, I don't think it is a stretch to think MU could make the Final Four in 2011-2012 with DJO as a senior, Crowder as a senior, and IF (big if) somehow Vander Blue or Jamail Jones turn out to be the next coming of d-Wade!! Actually, they may not need to be D-Wade good, because there will be a lot of talent around - top to bottom of roster.
And I don't blame Tom Crean for Taylor and Williams for leaving, nor do I blame Buzz for Christopherson and Mbawke leaving - as those were Tom Crean recruits...and either they didn't like Buzz, or Buzz wasn't totally sold on them (at least in the case of Christopherson - we know Mbawke left late - but recently tweeted that he regrets leaving, as he "see's Buzz has kept the program relevant.") Perhaps Trevor had doubts about Buzz - just like many of us did initially - though mine have been completely extinguished - some here remain unsold.
And as for the Hazel situation - he was a Tom Crean recruit who Buzz retained, and who would have played a role - had he not run astray of program rules...which thus lead to his departure.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on May 16, 2010, 08:53:20 AM
Buzz inherited three seniors that started pretty much all of last year.
Right, Coobie and Acker are clearly BEAST starting guards??? Buzz got a ton out of those guys, far more than TC, and he'll never have players with the lack of natural talent those two did again.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on May 16, 2010, 08:53:20 AM
Buzz inherited three seniors that started pretty much all of last year.
As mentioned in my original post....but let's be real for a minute neither Mo Acker nor David Cubiallan could be considered prototypical Big East guards. Buzz got the most out of both Mo and David, and credit goes to both the player and coach for that. Ironically, both of these players almost quit due to Buzz - but there is no denying in their senior night speeches and quotes throughout the year, that they have a great deal of respect for Buzz. I'm quite sure Buzz's methods got the most out of both Cooby and Mo. I thought Mo was sensational - so for that thanks Jerel for getting your best friend on the MU team, and thanks to Tom Crean for allowing Mo to come to MU.
Quote from: Ners on May 16, 2010, 09:29:49 AM
Actually, I don't think it is a stretch to think MU could make the Final Four in 2011-2012 with DJO as a senior, Crowder as a senior, and IF (big if) somehow Vander Blue or Jamail Jones turn out to be the next coming of d-Wade!! Actually, they may not need to be D-Wade good, because there will be a lot of talent around - top to bottom of roster.
And I don't blame Tom Crean for Taylor and Williams for leaving, nor do I blame Buzz for Christopherson and Mbawke leaving - as those were Tom Crean recruits...and either they didn't like Buzz, or Buzz wasn't totally sold on them (at least in the case of Christopherson - we know Mbawke left late - but recently tweeted that he regrets leaving, as he "see's Buzz has kept the program relevant.") Perhaps Trevor had doubts about Buzz - just like many of us did initially - though mine have been completely extinguished - some here remain unsold.
And as for the Hazel situation - he was a Tom Crean recruit who Buzz retained, and who would have played a role - had he not run astray of program rules...which thus lead to his departure.
Fair enough. If Buzz doesn't make the final 4 in 2012, I'll be sure to use it as proof that Crean is better than Buzz.
Sound stupid?
It is.
Direct comparisons without context are silly, which is really what I was referring to in my previous post.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on May 16, 2010, 08:53:20 AM
Buzz inherited three seniors that started pretty much all of last year.
Two of whom were viewed by most observers - including most observers here - as something far below Big East-caliber players.
Seven months ago Acker and Cubi were mid-major level players and backups. If they were forced to contribute major minutes, it would spell doom for Marquette's 2009-10 season.
Today Buzz "inherited" them as starters.
Awesome.
Quote from: ZiggysFryBoy on May 16, 2010, 12:44:26 AM
PRN, this is for you. :o
http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=170&f=2353&t=5948359 (http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=170&f=2353&t=5948359)
Makes me wonder. If Albert Pujols and Riley Crean went to the same baseball camp, who would win the MVP award?
Interesting that the one person not mentioned who was most significant in all of this is Dwyane Wade.
No D. Wade at Marquette, no Final 4. No Final 4, no Big East. No Big East, no limelight for Tom Crean. No limelight, Tom Crean isn't the coach at Indiana.
I used to give Tom Crean credit for being the one to effectively recruit and "develop" Dwyane Wade, but I now realize it was just amazing good fortune and timing. Dwyane Wade is now one of the ten best 2 guards EVER. There might be an argument he is one of the five best 2 guards ever. No program is ever going to get another Dwyane Wade because there won't be another one. He is a Hall of Fame player and there just aren't a lot of those. Even North Carolina will never get another Michael Jordan.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on May 16, 2010, 08:53:20 AM
Buzz inherited three seniors that started pretty much all of last year.
A factually correct statement that creates a totally false impression. Congratulations. The University of 84 hereby bequeths upon you a doctorate degree in both history and logic.
Quote from: Ners on May 16, 2010, 08:45:53 AM
It is comedic that in your above example you reference 8 wins in close games, and olnly 6 losses. Guess what, teams make runs in basketball games too - are you going to extoll the great coaching of Buzz to where he got his team into the above mentioned leads? Probably not, nor would I be ridiculous enough to do so. Basketball is a game of runs. When you are under,manned, undersized, more than likely your 2nd half perfoermance will be less than your first half performance.
The posts by mudimitri and Ners lead me to wonder what was the biggest deficit that MU overcame last year before winning a game. Leads of 14, 11 and 15 were lost, but what was the biggest comeback that the team made? Does comparing leads lost vs. deficits overcome tell anything about the accusation of being gassed, or of an inability of Buzz to "get the most out of guys #7-10 on his roster" as mudimitri states?
Quote from: avid1010 on May 16, 2010, 06:05:00 AM
So who was in a better situation going into last years season, Buzz or TC?
Was that supposed to be in teal?
Buzz, by a mile
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on May 16, 2010, 07:18:24 AM
Game, Set, Match to Marquette84.
Well said and obvious to everyone but about 5 people.
Quote from: Avenue Commons on May 16, 2010, 11:24:10 AM
Interesting that the one person not mentioned who was most significant in all of this is Dwyane Wade.
No D. Wade at Marquette, no Final 4. No Final 4, no Big East. No Big East, no limelight for Tom Crean. No limelight, Tom Crean isn't the coach at Indiana.
I used to give Tom Crean credit for being the one to effectively recruit and "develop" Dwyane Wade, but I now realize it was just amazing good fortune and timing. Dwyane Wade is now one of the ten best 2 guards EVER. There might be an argument he is one of the five best 2 guards ever. No program is ever going to get another Dwyane Wade because there won't be another one. He is a Hall of Fame player and there just aren't a lot of those. Even North Carolina will never get another Michael Jordan.
Yup, and no Tom Crean and no D. Wade at MU....works both ways.
Quote from: CrimsonNCrean on May 15, 2010, 07:57:15 PM
Chico... nobody at IU expected 20 win seasons.... but we did expect a team to "develop" and "play hard" every single night.... and IU, the last 11 or 12 games,... did NOT do either...
IU got dramatically worse by year end.. and Crean allowed the same players to make the same silly mistakes game in, game out...
It only took Tommy until the last regular season game to finally BENCH J Rivers... it should have happened 12 games earlier...
There are no unrealistic expectations at IU..... but IU fans do expect better than the 145the and 149th ranked rivals prospects, and the 66th ranked JUCO player in the nation in year 3 of the rebuild............. I mean this man offered D Williams after watching ONE workout....... a 1 star role player from Atlanta... and later rescinded the offer... making him look like an idiot....
All signs simply point to TC being a fraud... but he still has time... and he needs to make the most of it...
IU did get worse LAST year at the end. I don't think anyone is saying otherwise. As for Crean offering D Williams after one workout, Buzz offered Roseboro SIGHT UNSEEN. It happens.
Do you not expect IU to be around .500 this year?
Quote from: mug644 on May 16, 2010, 11:33:22 AM
The posts by mudimitri and Ners lead me to wonder what was the biggest deficit that MU overcame last year before winning a game. Leads of 14, 11 and 15 were lost, but what was the biggest comeback that the team made? Does comparing leads lost vs. deficits overcome tell anything about the accusation of being gassed, or of an inability of Buzz to "get the most out of guys #7-10 on his roster" as mudimitri states?
I highly doubt a coach has varying degrees of ability to get the most out of a player, regardless of if they are players 1-5 or 6-13. If we really examine last year's team our bench largely consisted of Buycks, Fulce, Erik Williams and Mbao - or players 6-9. Considering that only Fulce and Erik Williams were the only 2 bench players who remained healthy to play in everygame - the analysis we should be making is, did Joe Fulce exceed our expectations? Erik Williams? I'd say Fulce exceeded expectations, Erik Williams, not so much. Buycks had a decent year, but was hurt/sick down the stretch. As I'd stated in an earlier post, Erik Williams minutes would only come from spelling Lazar and Jimmy - and Joe Fulce occupied that same role. I'm sure buzz's feelings were that 80% (the fatigued versions) of Jimmy/Zar were better than what Erik Williams could bring as a freshman, as was 100% of what Joe Fulce could offer, in comparison to Erik. Trying to state Buzz doesn't develop guys 7-10 on his bench, given the context of who 7-10 were (we didn't even really have a 10th player, and for the most part with Mbao being hurt we had 8) is ridiculous. (And not to mention graspoing at straws to find a negative.)
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 16, 2010, 11:54:50 AM
Well said and obvious to everyone but about 5 people.
Actually the ONLY 5 people who find 84's point "obvious" are: Chicos, 84, Sultan, 2002MUAlum, and MUDimitri - it appears that outside of you 5, it isn't obvious to everyone else.
Quote from: Ners on May 16, 2010, 11:58:52 AM
I highly doubt a coach has varying degrees of ability to get the most out of a player, regardless of if they are players 1-5 or 6-13. If we really examine last year's team our bench largely consisted of Buycks, Fulce, Erik Williams and Mbao - or players 6-9.
I'd go a bit further and say that it is wiser for a coach to focus on trying to get more out of players that are "higher on the playlist." I mean that virtually everyone thought at the beginning of last year Cubillan and Acker were questionable BEast players, but it was unavoidable (especially after Junior went down) that they would log a lot of minutes. So, if (and I'm not definitively saying this is the case) Buzz put more effort into their performance than he did into, say, EWill's development, it doesn't necessarily surprise me, nor does it disappoint me. The bottom line is that Buzz has had players in each of his 2 years step up beyond expectations--Wesley Matthews in his first year, then Mo, David and Jimmy (and I don't include the unknown of DJO) in year 2--and we must all be happy with that. While it is possible that EWill's development falls through the cracks with the potential of the incoming class, I'm willing to anticipate a significant gain on his part, due to both his effort and Buzz's (and the staff's).
That said, I remain curious about the largest deficit that last year's team overcame. Can anyone help?
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 16, 2010, 11:54:01 AM
Was that supposed to be in teal?
Buzz, by a mile
Because MU was left with Zar and two undersized guards? Everything else was all Buzz. TC's recruits aren't doing anything close to what Butler, DJO and others are doing. TC had some penalties to work under, but hey, it's IU and he had playing time to offer.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on May 16, 2010, 08:53:20 AM
Buzz inherited three seniors that started pretty much all of last year.
It also should be noted that Crean recruited 2 JUCO's who were seniors last year - both in their 2nd year at IU - Devin Dumes and Tijan Jobe who produced a combined 7 points and 2.6 rebounds per game as seniors. Interestingly enough, Dumes numbers regressed significantly as a senior:
JR Year at IU: (27 games, 27.0 minutes, 12.7ppg, 2.9 rpg)
SR Year at IU: (30 games, 17.8 minutes, 6.6ppg, 2.0rpg)
Quite the opposite of Jimmy Butler's numbers, also a late signing 2008 pick up, throw in DJO to the mix as a late signee in 2009, its clear to see why MU was a lot better than IU
It should also be noted Crean lost Nick Williams after a very productive freshman year to a transfer. Crean also lost Jordan Crawford and Armon Bassett two top players brought in under Kelvin Sampson. So to parallel his situation to the one Buzz faced lets say Crawford = Tyshawn Taylor, Bassett = Mbawke, Nick Williams = Jerrone Maymon (as Maymon was a Buzz guy that Buzz lost, and Williams was a Crean guy, that crean lost.). Not to mention Nick Williams was supposed to come to MU, which left us that hole.
The reality is that the situations in year 2 really were not all that different...AND...IU is a Top 5 basketball brand/program to sell..which like it or not, is the reason Crean left MU - he saw it as a better program with a bigger national profile (and most college basketball fans would draw the same conclusions.) This fact just makes the results up to this point reflect more poorly on Tom Crean, while illuminating the job Buzz Williams has done.
Quote from: Ners on May 16, 2010, 12:44:06 PM
It also should be noted that Crean recruited 2 JUCO's who were seniors last year - both in their 2nd year at IU - Devin Dumes and Tijan Jobe who produced a combined 7 points and 2.6 rebounds per game as seniors. Interestingly enough, Dumes numbers regressed significantly as a senior:
JR Year at IU: (27 games, 27.0 minutes, 12.7ppg, 2.9 rpg)
SR Year at IU: (30 games, 17.8 minutes, 6.6ppg, 2.0rpg)
Quite the opposite of Jimmy Butler's numbers, also a late signing 2008 pick up, throw in DJO to the mix as a late signee in 2009, its clear to see why MU was a lot better than IU
It should also be noted Crean lost Nick Williams after a very productive freshman year to a transfer. Crean also lost Jordan Crawford and Armon Bassett two top players brought in under Kelvin Sampson. So to parallel his situation to the one Buzz faced lets say Crawford = Tyshawn Taylor, Bassett = Mbawke, Nick Williams = Jerrone Maymon (as Maymon was a Buzz guy that Buzz lost, and Williams was a Crean guy, that crean lost.). Not to mention Nick Williams was supposed to come to MU, which left us that hole.
The reality is that the situations in year 2 really were not all that different...AND...IU is a Top 5 basketball brand/program to sell..which like it or not, is the reason Crean left MU - he saw it as a better program with a bigger national profile (and most college basketball fans would draw the same conclusions.) This fact just makes the results up to this point reflect more poorly on Tom Crean, while illuminating the job Buzz Williams has done.
Wow. Just........wow. Some hearty bits of delusion as always.
At least the next two weeks will be filled with player movement so we don't experience laughable topics like this much longer.
Quote from: Ners on May 16, 2010, 12:44:06 PM
It also should be noted that Crean recruited 2 JUCO's who were seniors last year - both in their 2nd year at IU - Devin Dumes and Tijan Jobe who produced a combined 7 points and 2.6 rebounds per game as seniors. Interestingly enough, Dumes numbers regressed significantly as a senior:
JR Year at IU: (27 games, 27.0 minutes, 12.7ppg, 2.9 rpg)
SR Year at IU: (30 games, 17.8 minutes, 6.6ppg, 2.0rpg)
Quite the opposite of Jimmy Butler's numbers, also a late signing 2008 pick up, throw in DJO to the mix as a late signee in 2009, its clear to see why MU was a lot better than IU
It should also be noted Crean lost Nick Williams after a very productive freshman year to a transfer. Crean also lost Jordan Crawford and Armon Bassett two top players brought in under Kelvin Sampson. So to parallel his situation to the one Buzz faced lets say Crawford = Tyshawn Taylor, Bassett = Mbawke, Nick Williams = Jerrone Maymon (as Maymon was a Buzz guy that Buzz lost, and Williams was a Crean guy, that crean lost.). Not to mention Nick Williams was supposed to come to MU, which left us that hole.
The reality is that the situations in year 2 really were not all that different...AND...IU is a Top 5 basketball brand/program to sell..which like it or not, is the reason Crean left MU - he saw it as a better program with a bigger national profile (and most college basketball fans would draw the same conclusions.) This fact just makes the results up to this point reflect more poorly on Tom Crean, while illuminating the job Buzz Williams has done.
Right On...
Quote from: avid1010 on May 16, 2010, 12:25:49 PM
Because MU was left with Zar and two undersized guards? Everything else was all Buzz. TC's recruits aren't doing anything close to what Butler, DJO and others are doing. TC had some penalties to work under, but hey, it's IU and he had playing time to offer.
MU had an All Big East first team pre-season selection (Hayward). IU, no players even close.
MU had a player that would earn Honorable Mention All Big East player (Butler). IU, maybe if their best player didn't blow out his leg before the Big Ten season started.
MU had Wisconsin High School player of the Year with Maymon (before transferring). IU, no players that fit that bill.
MU had an All American JUCO first team in DJO.
I could go on. One team had very good players coming back, the other team is still stacked with freshmen and sophomores, mostly, that they had to take flyers on just to fill a team. Players, with the exception of 5 kids, probably should be in the MAC or lower but they needed warm bodies to compete.
That's why I asked if it was in teal. There were posters here that picked MU for the NCAAs and were right. There was not a person in America that picked IU for the NCAAs.
I doubt you could find one expert, one computer poll, one ranking system anywhere in the universe that predicted IU would be better than MU last year and the reason was pretty simple, MU had a lot more raw material to work with than IU did.
Thus, I asked if the question was in teal. Apparently, it wasn't.
I will start this post by saying, I still appreciate everything Crean did for this program, including leaving and giving us Buzz. We wouldn't be where we are today without him...not even close.
But the situation Crean finds himself in this coming year will be a better indicator of the kind of coach he is. Chicos is right, he lost his best player early on, I'd hate to say it but if we had lost Lazar I think we would have been in a similar place.
Quote from: avid1010 on May 16, 2010, 09:36:10 AM
Right, Coobie and Acker are clearly BEAST starting guards??? Buzz got a ton out of those guys, far more than TC, and he'll never have players with the lack of natural talent those two did again.
See, this is starting to get ridiculous. Buzz inherited three seniors. One was a three year starter, the other two were role players that stepped up due to injury when a spot opened above them. They were good because Buzz coached them up sure...BUT HE STILL INHERITED THEM!!!!
And I'm not even a TC guy! But the leaps of logic that you TC-bashers take are almost laughable.
Quote from: avid1010 on May 16, 2010, 12:25:49 PM
Because MU was left with Zar and two undersized guards? Everything else was all Buzz. TC's recruits aren't doing anything close to what Butler, DJO and others are doing. TC had some penalties to work under, but hey, it's IU and he had playing time to offer.
Stop moving the goalposts. The question was who was in a better situation heading into year two...TC or Buzz. It wasn't who did a better coaching job.
I'm not sure why it matters who had more going into year two. Relative to the talent they had in year two, Buzz overachieved and Crean underachieved (the way the team quit on him was embarrassing). I think that speaks to who did the better job coaching.
Quote from: mug644 on May 16, 2010, 12:16:37 PM
I'd go a bit further and say that it is wiser for a coach to focus on trying to get more out of players that are "higher on the playlist." I mean that virtually everyone thought at the beginning of last year Cubillan and Acker were questionable BEast players, but it was unavoidable (especially after Junior went down) that they would log a lot of minutes. So, if (and I'm not definitively saying this is the case) Buzz put more effort into their performance than he did into, say, EWill's development, it doesn't necessarily surprise me, nor does it disappoint me. The bottom line is that Buzz has had players in each of his 2 years step up beyond expectations--Wesley Matthews in his first year, then Mo, David and Jimmy (and I don't include the unknown of DJO) in year 2--and we must all be happy with that. While it is possible that EWill's development falls through the cracks with the potential of the incoming class, I'm willing to anticipate a significant gain on his part, due to both his effort and Buzz's (and the staff's).
That said, I remain curious about the largest deficit that last year's team overcame. Can anyone help?
I agree that it is more important, but believe me keeping players 7-10 on your team happy and productive is much more difficult than players 1-6. As an example, and this isnt a knock on Buzz because the kid had issues, Buzz couldn't manage to keep happy a freshman who was actually getting decent minutes because he wanted a bigger role... Many of these higher end recruits have lofty goals, and these are usually the guys that fall in the 6-10 range as frosh.
Now, with more higher end talent being recruited (Smith is considered like 10th on the depth chart by some and hes just outside the top 100) it will be even more difficult to keep all those guys happy. Don't forget, Buzz only had like 3-4 bench guys to worry about last year, but this season he is going to have to deal with players 7-12, a much tougher task. We will see how he does, but I stand by my statement that I feel he underutilized players 7-10 in both seasons, now it will definitely be a task to work with 7-12
To answer your question, most of the games MU won were those in which they led or were close throughout (in other words no big comeback wins) However, there was one huge comeback for MU, the game at Villanova where the team was down 52-30 (22 pts!) with 13:43 left and made an astonishing comeback to lose 78-76... The lack of depth didn't hurt there.
Also:
Providence was up 49-41 w/ 16:37 left in providence, MU won by 3
Cincy was up 46-38 w/ 17:34 left in cincy, MU by 3 in OT
St Johns was up 45-38 w/ 10:52 left in NY, MU by 2 in OT
Villanova was up 48-41 w/ 13:10 left @ the garden, MU by 4
So there were 2nd half deficits overcome by MU of 7-8 pts, and then the huge 22 pt deficit in Nove (amazing 2nd half, so much fun to watch).
However, as I previously posted there were many more double digit blown leads in the 2nd half- many that MU still pulled out to give that 8-8 record in games decided by 4pts or less that NERS likes to use as part of his undying defense of Buzz (numbers don't lie right)- but also some that resulted in losses. Also, there were those games that MU blew in the last few minutes with very winnable leads.
Quote from: Ners on May 16, 2010, 08:45:53 AM
It is comedic that in your above example you reference 8 wins in close games, and olnly 6 losses. Guess what, teams make runs in basketball games too - are you going to extoll the great coaching of Buzz to where he got his team into the above mentioned leads? Probably not, nor would I be ridiculous enough to do so. Basketball is a game of runs. When you are under,manned, undersized, more than likely your 2nd half perfoermance will be less than your first half performance. And yes, Buzz did say the guys were gassed after the Georgetown game in the big East tourney. We'll see who looks like the idiot as the next 4 years move forward, but it sounds to me unless MU can dominate its opponent for all 40 minutes of a game, there will have been poor coaching to blame. Armchair guys like you who can coach a team better than the guys getting paid millions to do so crack me up. Lastly, sorry you took 30 minutes to write a rebuttal that falls flat on its face - must be drinking a little too much too often.
Really??
OK- I only left out the two Villanova games so here you go:
Villanova: Close throughout
@ Villanova: The game I just mentioned- down 22, amazing comeback, MU loses by 2
So in other words, 5 out of the 8 'close wins' and 6 of the 8 'close losses' were blown leads.
In the post above, I noted that there were 3 MU comeback wins (7-8 pt deficits in the 2nd half)- those are the other 3 close wins. There was also the big comeback at Nova, resulting in one of the close losses
The rest of your post is excuse ridden, which is typical, so I won't even discuss it. I also won't call you any names, because I have already been warned
The rest of the board can draw its own conclusions, but I just went ahead and did the research to prove to myself that I actually watched the games this season. I found that MU had 11 blown leads, and 4 comebacks (which I already figured to be the case based on my memory)
Quote from: CrazyEcho on May 16, 2010, 01:58:20 PM
I'm not sure why it matters who had more going into year two. Relative to the talent they had in year two, Buzz overachieved and Crean underachieved (the way the team quit on him was embarrassing). I think that speaks to who did the better job coaching.
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_FEZc22SfAy4/SyrWHrXQ0HI/AAAAAAAABIU/Kdrhvz2OAWQ/s320/winner+winner+chicken+dinner.jpg)
Quote from: Ners on May 16, 2010, 08:29:10 AM
Once again 84 twists the issue - Nobody denies Year 1 under Buzz was set-up to be easy, or well stocked with talent. Way to write a 12 paragraph rebuttal stating the freakin' obvious.
It can't be THAT obvious, becuase you started a post with the words "I think some MU fans fail to realize
how bad it was at MU after Crean" but didn't explain the situation.
I just wanted to post a few tangible examples of "how bad it was at MU" to remind those folks who you claim "fail to realize" the situation.
The centerpiece of your argument is that on the day Buzz took over, he only had ten returning players (4 seniors-to-be, 3 juniors, 3 sophs) and three recruits under LOI (2 frosh and a juco sophomore).
Quote from: Ners on May 16, 2010, 08:29:10 AM
To say that Buzz working as an assistant at MU gave him a HUGE advantage in recruiting when he got the job in late April of 2008, is a joke.
Lets compare to Keno Davis, for example. While Buzz was on the road building ties with 2008, 2009, 2010 and even 2011 Big East-level recruits during the 2007-08 season, Keno Davis was building recruiting ties to Drake-level recruits.
I don't think its "twisting" things or "a joke" to suggest that MU and Drake simply recruit at two different levels.
Therefore, I strongly believe that put Buzz at a HUGE advantage compared to Davis.
Here's a tangible example: I would suggest that the recruiting visits that Buzz paid to Tyler Junior College to recruit Joe Fulce for Tom Crean over the course of the 2007-08 season most certainly gave him a huge advantage when it came to the recruitment of his teammate Jimmy Butler. Chances are strong that if Buzz had not already been recruiting at Tyler over the previous year, there would have been zero chance at landing Butler.
Quote from: CrazyEcho on May 16, 2010, 01:58:20 PM
I'm not sure why it matters who had more going into year two. Relative to the talent they had in year two, Buzz overachieved and Crean underachieved (the way the team quit on him was embarrassing). I think that speaks to who did the better job coaching.
You are correct...but that's not what I am arguing. I am countering Ners absurd suggestion that after year one, Buzz was in a worse position than TC.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 16, 2010, 01:31:44 PM
MU had an All Big East first team pre-season selection (Hayward). IU, no players even close.
True, and he was recruited by Crean, so props to Crean in that regards.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 16, 2010, 01:31:44 PM
MU had a player that would earn Honorable Mention All Big East player (Butler). IU, maybe if their best player didn't blow out his leg before the Big Ten season started.
Recruited by Buzz, but Crean had the same amount of time to get a guy like this. Why didn't he? He's at IU...should be an easy sell.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 16, 2010, 01:31:44 PM
MU had Wisconsin High School player of the Year with Maymon (before transferring). IU, no players that fit that bill.
Recruited by Buzz, but Crean had the same amount of time to get a guy like this. Why didn't he? He's at IU...should be an easy sell.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 16, 2010, 01:31:44 PM
MU had an All American JUCO first team in DJO.
Recruited by Buzz, but Crean had the same amount of time to get a guy like this. Why didn't he? He's at IU...should be an easy sell.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 16, 2010, 01:31:44 PM
I could go on. One team had very good players coming back, the other team is still stacked with freshmen and sophomores, mostly, that they had to take flyers on just to fill a team.
So....based on the above...other than it not being possible to have a guy like Lazar (though, he could have had a guy like Crawford...), I don't see why Crean is still fumbling 3 years into the job...
I think that reason people are concerned is after they lost a few close games. They lost 8 in a row by about 21 points on average before beating northwestern. I Think Crean will be fine given time, but will IU give him the time? recruiting class of 2011 is big for him.
January 24 Iowa L 58-43 9-10 (3-4)
January 30 at Illinois L 72-70 9-11 (3-5)
February 4 No. 7 Purdue L 78-75 9-12 (3-6)
February 7 at Northwestern L 78-61 9-13 (3-7)
February 10 No. 16 Ohio State L 69-52 9-14 (3-8)
February 13 at No. 13 Wisconsin L 83-55 9-15 (3-9)
February 16 No. 11 Michigan State L 72-58 9-16 (3-10)
February 20 at Minnesota L 81-58 9-17 (3-11)
February 25 No. 19 Wisconsin L 78-46 9-18 (3-12)
February 28 at Iowa L 73-57 9-19 (3-13)
March 3 at No. 6 Purdue L 74-55 9-20 (3-14)
March 6 Northwestern W 88-80 10-20 (4-14)
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 16, 2010, 01:31:44 PM
MU had an All Big East first team pre-season selection (Hayward). IU, no players even close.
MU had a player that would earn Honorable Mention All Big East player (Butler). IU, maybe if their best player didn't blow out his leg before the Big Ten season started.
MU had Wisconsin High School player of the Year with Maymon (before transferring). IU, no players that fit that bill.
MU had an All American JUCO first team in DJO.
I could go on. One team had very good players coming back, the other team is still stacked with freshmen and sophomores, mostly, that they had to take flyers on just to fill a team. Players, with the exception of 5 kids, probably should be in the MAC or lower but they needed warm bodies to compete.
That's why I asked if it was in teal. There were posters here that picked MU for the NCAAs and were right. There was not a person in America that picked IU for the NCAAs.
I doubt you could find one expert, one computer poll, one ranking system anywhere in the universe that predicted IU would be better than MU last year and the reason was pretty simple, MU had a lot more raw material to work with than IU did.
Thus, I asked if the question was in teal. Apparently, it wasn't.
I understand you asked if it was in teal, thanks for repeating it multiple times.
How do you type all of that and not realize that Buzz did all that with the exception of Zar. Was your response supposed to be in teal?
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on May 16, 2010, 01:50:24 PM
See, this is starting to get ridiculous. Buzz inherited three seniors. One was a three year starter, the other two were role players that stepped up due to injury when a spot opened above them. They were good because Buzz coached them up sure...BUT HE STILL INHERITED THEM!!!!
And I'm not even a TC guy! But the leaps of logic that you TC-bashers take are almost laughable.
I liked TC when he was here...hated the way he left, but this has nothing to do with bias. Buzz did inherit Acker and Coobie, and I see Buzz landing much better guards now and in the future.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on May 16, 2010, 01:52:22 PM
Stop moving the goalposts. The question was who was in a better situation heading into year two...TC or Buzz. It wasn't who did a better coaching job.
Right, Buzz was in a better situation because he made it that way with the way he recruited and developed his players. After losing the Big 3, MU had playing time to offer, just as IU did, and MU faired much better. I'd say they were on pretty even ground after the first year, and Buzz has done more at MU than TC has done at IU.
Quote from: The Golden Avalanche on May 16, 2010, 01:13:04 PM
Wow. Just........wow. Some hearty bits of delusion as always.
At least the next two weeks will be filled with player movement so we don't experience laughable topics like this much longer.
Pretty lame rebuttal from you as always. Discredit what I wrote. If you want to argue that Mo and Cooby left Buzz alot to work with, consider they averaged 2.8 and 1.8ppg respectively as juniors.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on May 16, 2010, 04:48:55 PM
You are correct...but that's not what I am arguing. I am countering Ners absurd suggestion that after year one, Buzz was in a worse position than TC.
Please go back and quote where I said Buzz was in a worse position than TC..I look forward to you not being able to do so. No wonder you and 84 and Chicos all think alike - you completely fabricate and twist things I write..never said Buzz was in a worse position than TC, not once.
Quote from: Ners on May 16, 2010, 08:45:23 PM
Pretty lame rebuttal from you as always. Discredit what I wrote. If you want to argue that Mo and Cooby left Buzz alot to work with, consider they averaged 2.8 and 1.8ppg respectively as juniors.
You ever wonder why? Perhaps because they were underutilized? Watching that team their Jr year you would have thought that neither of those two guys knew how to play one lick of basketball, which proved to be incorrect. I understand we had the Big 3, but you need to understand that the Big 3 didn't need to average 35+ mpg, especially in blowouts, with guys like acker and cubillan on the bench- Cubillan averaged 9.5mpg and Acker 16.2mpg (inflated because of DJames injury). Again, guys 7-10 on the roster...
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on May 16, 2010, 01:50:24 PM
See, this is starting to get ridiculous. Buzz inherited three seniors. One was a three year starter, the other two were role players that stepped up due to injury when a spot opened above them. They were good because Buzz coached them up sure...BUT HE STILL INHERITED THEM!!!!
And I'm not even a TC guy! But the leaps of logic that you TC-bashers take are almost laughable.
It's not even laughable, it's absurd but hatred can really get the best of reason.
Quote from: mudimitri on May 16, 2010, 08:57:37 PM
You ever wonder why? Perhaps because they were underutilized? Watching that team their Jr year you would have thought that neither of those two guys knew how to play one lick of basketball, which proved to be incorrect. I understand we had the Big 3, but you need to understand that the Big 3 didn't need to average 35+ mpg, especially in blowouts, with guys like acker and cubillan on the bench- Cubillan averaged 9.5mpg and Acker 16.2mpg (inflated because of DJames injury). Again, guys 7-10 on the roster...
Please..MU was 23-4 at the time Dominic James went down. The team was ranked 8 in the country. Again, armchair guys like you will only be happy if MU is undefeated and blows every team out. Also, you didn't rebut any of what I'd written about last year's 7-10 players...we didn't even have 10. We basically had a bench of Buycks, Fulce, Erik Williams...so guys 6, 7 and 8. Would you say Fulce exceeded your expectations? Would you think playing Erik Williams in front of Fulce to sub for Lazar or Jimmy would have resulted in more wins for last year's team?? Please don't try to tell me Erik Williams as a freshman was the difference between MU winning or losing a few more games last year.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 16, 2010, 11:04:55 PM
It's not even laughable, it's absurd but hatred can really get the best of reason.
The only absurd thing is that you continue to go to any length to defend Tom Crean. You don't rebut any valid points any of us make regarding Tom Crean. Here's a post you have yet to respond to..please rebut these comments:
Re: Is Crean In Trouble?
« Reply #92 on: Today at 05:16:09 PM » Quote
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Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on Today at 01:31:44 PM
MU had an All Big East first team pre-season selection (Hayward). IU, no players even close.
True, and he was recruited by Crean, so props to Crean in that regards.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on Today at 01:31:44 PM
MU had a player that would earn Honorable Mention All Big East player (Butler). IU, maybe if their best player didn't blow out his leg before the Big Ten season started.
Recruited by Buzz, but Crean had the same amount of time to get a guy like this. Why didn't he? He's at IU...should be an easy sell.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on Today at 01:31:44 PM
MU had Wisconsin High School player of the Year with Maymon (before transferring). IU, no players that fit that bill.
Recruited by Buzz, but Crean had the same amount of time to get a guy like this. Why didn't he? He's at IU...should be an easy sell.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on Today at 01:31:44 PM
MU had an All American JUCO first team in DJO.
Recruited by Buzz, but Crean had the same amount of time to get a guy like this. Why didn't he? He's at IU...should be an easy sell.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on Today at 01:31:44 PM
I could go on. One team had very good players coming back, the other team is still stacked with freshmen and sophomores, mostly, that they had to take flyers on just to fill a team.
So....based on the above...other than it not being possible to have a guy like Lazar (though, he could have had a guy like Crawford...), I don't see why Crean is still fumbling 3 years into the job...
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 16, 2010, 11:04:55 PM
It's not even laughable, it's absurd but hatred can really get the best of reason.
While we are on the topic of absured, please also provide rebuttals for my previous post, posted earlier in the thread:
It also should be noted that Crean recruited 2 JUCO's who were seniors last year - both in their 2nd year at IU - Devin Dumes and Tijan Jobe who produced a combined 7 points and 2.6 rebounds per game as seniors. Interestingly enough, Dumes numbers regressed significantly as a senior:
JR Year at IU: (27 games, 27.0 minutes, 12.7ppg, 2.9 rpg)
SR Year at IU: (30 games, 17.8 minutes, 6.6ppg, 2.0rpg)
Quite the opposite of Jimmy Butler's numbers, also a late signing 2008 pick up, throw in DJO to the mix as a late signee in 2009, its clear to see why MU was a lot better than IU
It should also be noted Crean lost Nick Williams after a very productive freshman year to a transfer. Crean also lost Jordan Crawford and Armon Bassett two top players brought in under Kelvin Sampson. So to parallel his situation to the one Buzz faced lets say Crawford = Tyshawn Taylor, Bassett = Mbawke, Nick Williams = Jerrone Maymon (as Maymon was a Buzz guy that Buzz lost, and Williams was a Crean guy, that crean lost.). Not to mention Nick Williams was supposed to come to MU, which left us that hole.
The reality is that the situations in year 2 really were not all that different...AND...IU is a Top 5 basketball brand/program to sell..which like it or not, is the reason Crean left MU - he saw it as a better program with a bigger national profile (and most college basketball fans would draw the same conclusions.) This fact just makes the results up to this point reflect more poorly on Tom Crean, while illuminating the job Buzz Williams has done.
Let's just call TC what he really is: A "bridge" coach who will give you good seasons, make you feel important, lift a program, but never, ever, ever going to take you to the promised land.
He was the "bridge" coach at MU. He was blessed with Wade.
Now at "II,II", he's cleaning up the program and bringing respectability back. He's gone in a few years when he cannot bring in the recruits who are needed to life II,II to the Big 10 title and beyond. They'll thank him for being an integral part of a painful transition back to credibility but he's no Bob Knight... I predict he'll take over for Izzo when Izzo wisens up about the money he could be making in the NBA.
Quote from: Ners on May 16, 2010, 11:13:29 PM
The only absurd thing is that you continue to go to any length to defend Tom Crean. You don't rebut any valid points any of us make regarding Tom Crean. Here's a post you have yet to respond to..please rebut these comments:
Don't worry - he likely will (if he has time), and the answer will probably have something to do with the fact that IU had self imposed recruiting limitations because of Sampson. They like to point out that IU is (was?) on NCAA probation, but that just means...don't do it again.
QuoteThe self-imposed sanctions, announced in October 2007 by Rick Greenspan and Grace Calhoun, included the following:
* A second year of restrictions on recruiting calls tighter than is permitted by the NCAA.
* Reduced Kelvin Sampson's off-campus recruiting opportunities and took away a basketball scholarship for 2008-09. The off-campus recruiting penalties were extended to Tom Crean after he took the job in April, but IU opted to allow Crean 10 days to recruit off-campus.
* The basketball staff also had one less coach available for recruiting during the 2007-08 recruiting year.
* Sampson also voluntarily agreed to forego a $500,000 compensation increase for the 2007-2008 season.
Quote from: Ners on May 16, 2010, 11:10:20 PM
Please..MU was 23-4 at the time Dominic James went down. The team was ranked 8 in the country. Again, armchair guys like you will only be happy if MU is undefeated and blows every team out. Also, you didn't rebut any of what I'd written about last year's 7-10 players...we didn't even have 10. We basically had a bench of Buycks, Fulce, Erik Williams...so guys 6, 7 and 8. Would you say Fulce exceeded your expectations? Would you think playing Erik Williams in front of Fulce to sub for Lazar or Jimmy would have resulted in more wins for last year's team?? Please don't try to tell me Erik Williams as a freshman was the difference between MU winning or losing a few more games last year.
When would armchair guys like you ever be unhappy with Buzz, or for that matter happy with what Crean gave? I am actually VERY happy with what Buzz has done thus far and how MU performed this past season. I have repeatedly said that I think he is a great recruiter, has been excellent for the university, seems to be loved by his players, and has showed great upside as a college head coach.
That said, not everything in life has to be 100% perfect or 100% wrong, as you seem to think. Just like you and I at our jobs, everyone has strengths and weaknesses and everyone can improve. Even guys that have been doing it for 30 years with success, let alone guys on in their 3rd year on the job
I believe this board is meant to discuss things like this. My point is that the areas that I personally feel Buzz can improve on is the use of his bench, his halftime adjustments and end-of-the-game coaching, and his composure (much better in year two, but still seems to get flustered at times and I feel it rubs off on the team)
NOW, you might not agree with any of that, and I do not expect you too because you will defend Coach Williams at any cost, but I could care less. I would like to see you mention something that you think Buzz could improve on after his first two seasons...
Again Ive said this repeatedly, but about players #7-10 I feel that Cubillan and Acker were underutilized in year 1. Also, despite coming back from injury I feel Fulce and OTule could have been used more too. In year #2, I feel like Fulce, EWill, and Yous prior to injury were underutilized/underdeveloped. Do I think we would have won more games if those guys were used more often in the right situations (20 pt leads, 1-2 minute stretches at certain points in the first half, etc€)? ABSOLUTELY. Do I feel that Buzz's inexperience as head coach and loss of composure might have cost MU a few wins? ABSOLUTELY. Do I feel that Buzz's genious as recruiter and motivator got the most out of many of his guys? ABSOLUTELY. Do I feel we are in good hands? DEFINITELY
You see how everything isn't always black/white? How things aren't always one way or the other?
Most importantly, these upcoming teams will present a bigger challenge for Buzz because he has many more highly tauted recruits. EVERYONE will want playing time and will want to be a major part of the team. Inevitably, not everyone will be able to get the minutes they expected, and this will be the tough part for Buzz. In the end, its easy to continuously play 5 and 6 guys and say that the team is thin due to injury, and that the guys left cannot help us win right now and they will play when they can. The hard part comes when you've got everyone healthy, and eager to play and produce. Buzz repeatedly says he wants to go 9.5 deep, and I believe him. We will see these next few years how effective he is with keeping guys #7-12 happy and getting the most out of them
Again, why on earth can't people just appreciate both. I don't get it, never have, never will.
People literally make up crap to bring down TC's record. It's comical.
Oh well, it is what it is. Thank you TC for putting MU back on the map and taking us places that we haven't been in decades. Thank you Buzz for keeping the momentum going. I hope you can also take us to that same place or beyond.
Quote from: Ners on May 16, 2010, 08:57:12 PM
Please go back and quote where I said Buzz was in a worse position than TC..I look forward to you not being able to do so. No wonder you and 84 and Chicos all think alike - you completely fabricate and twist things I write..never said Buzz was in a worse position than TC, not once.
The answer lies in your post that tried to establish how bad things were when Buzz took over.
Here's a couple of simple questions for you:
True or false: Buzz inherited a roster of 10 returning players and 3 recruits under LOI the day he was hired.
True or false: Those players were evenly balanced across the classes the day he was hired (4 seniors-to-be, 3 juniors, 3 sophs, 3 frosh).
I'm really trying to understand how you come to the logic that others "completely fabricate and twist things" when you yourself are the biggest offender. In this thread you claim Buzz didn't have a full and balanced roster when he took over--yet you cannot deny the two truths listed above. In other words,
you twisted the facts to claim that the cupboard was bare.
The reason why Buzz only had 3 holdovers from Crean this year is because Buzz (by his own choice or not) saw most of the team leave.
Quote from: 77ncaachamps on May 16, 2010, 11:21:45 PM
Let's just call TC what he really is: A "bridge" coach who will give you good seasons, make you feel important, lift a program, but never, ever, ever going to take you to the promised land.
He was the "bridge" coach at MU. He was blessed with Wade.
Now at "II,II", he's cleaning up the program and bringing respectability back. He's gone in a few years when he cannot bring in the recruits who are needed to life II,II to the Big 10 title and beyond. They'll thank him for being an integral part of a painful transition back to credibility but he's no Bob Knight... I predict he'll take over for Izzo when Izzo wisens up about the money he could be making in the NBA.
Very well said. And I think II,II admin had exactly that in mind when they brought him in. He is what they needed at the time.
I will only say this becuase I think it transcends wheteher you like Crean or not....How many people reading this honestly thought in his third recruiting class at Indiana Crean would sign two players that ranked around 125 to 150 in the player rankings and a third that is rated the 66th best JUCO prospect?
Quite frankly would you ever think the coach at Indiana (regardless of who he was) would do that?
Winning in college BBall is 90% recruiting.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 17, 2010, 12:03:27 AM
Again, why on earth can't people just appreciate both. I don't get it, never have, never will.
People literally make up crap to bring down TC's record. It's comical.
Oh well, it is what it is. Thank you TC for putting MU back on the map and taking us places that we haven't been in decades. Thank you Buzz for keeping the momentum going. I hope you can also take us to that same place or beyond.
Agreed. Some folks just can stand prosperity. Lets all move on ane enjoy MU basketball.
Quote from: mudimitri on May 16, 2010, 11:57:51 PM
I believe this board is meant to discuss things like this. My point is that the areas that I personally feel Buzz can improve on is the use of his bench, his halftime adjustments and end-of-the-game coaching, and his composure (much better in year two, but still seems to get flustered at times and I feel it rubs off on the team)
NOW, you might not agree with any of that, and I do not expect you too because you will defend Coach Williams at any cost, but I could care less. I would like to see you mention something that you think Buzz could improve on after his first two seasons...
Again Ive said this repeatedly, but about players #7-10 I feel that Cubillan and Acker were underutilized in year 1. Also, despite coming back from injury I feel Fulce and OTule could have been used more too. In year #2, I feel like Fulce, EWill, and Yous prior to injury were underutilized/underdeveloped. Do I think we would have won more games if those guys were used more often in the right situations (20 pt leads, 1-2 minute stretches at certain points in the first half, etc€)? ABSOLUTELY. Do I feel that Buzz's inexperience as head coach and loss of composure might have cost MU a few wins? ABSOLUTELY. Do I feel that Buzz's genious as recruiter and motivator got the most out of many of his guys? ABSOLUTELY. Do I feel we are in good hands? DEFINITELY
You see how everything isn't always black/white? How things aren't always one way or the other?
Most importantly, these upcoming teams will present a bigger challenge for Buzz because he has many more highly tauted recruits. EVERYONE will want playing time and will want to be a major part of the team. Inevitably, not everyone will be able to get the minutes they expected, and this will be the tough part for Buzz. In the end, its easy to continuously play 5 and 6 guys and say that the team is thin due to injury, and that the guys left cannot help us win right now and they will play when they can. The hard part comes when you've got everyone healthy, and eager to play and produce. Buzz repeatedly says he wants to go 9.5 deep, and I believe him. We will see these next few years how effective he is with keeping guys #7-12 happy and getting the most out of them
I disagree with most of your logic, particularily the bold parts. I don't see how you are going to argue with how the team was coached when the team was 23-4 and #8 in the country before Dominic James went down. The reality is that DJ, Jerel, and Wes were much better players than Mo and Cooby - and why play Mo and Cooby more when you are 23-4 and #8 in the country? Why give up 3-6" and 25+ pounds at 2 positions on an already undersized team? As I've said, Erik Williams wasn't going to be the difference between MU winning or losing games last year. Fulce was used quite a bit, so long as he didn't make stupid fouls. Buzz ball involves making more free throws than the other team attempts. When Fulce would make dumb fouls, he'd get yanked. That said, Fulce still showed more as a Junior, than did E-Will as a freshman.
Let's see how Buzz utilizes a bench of talented, high major players - as this is the first time in his time at MU he will have had that. I'm curious to see how he splits up minutes, and am excited to see the brand of ball we play. I highly doubt Buzz will only play a 6-7 man rotation next year - as the 8, 9 and 10 guys will be legit, high-major players.
Quote from: Ners on May 16, 2010, 09:29:49 AM
Actually, I don't think it is a stretch to think MU could make the Final Four in 2011-2012 with DJO as a senior, Crowder as a senior, and IF (big if) somehow Vander Blue or Jamail Jones turn out to be the next coming of d-Wade!! Actually, they may not need to be D-Wade good, because there will be a lot of talent around - top to bottom of roster.
And I don't blame Tom Crean for Taylor and Williams for leaving, nor do I blame Buzz for Christopherson and Mbawke leaving - as those were Tom Crean recruits...and either they didn't like Buzz, or Buzz wasn't totally sold on them (at least in the case of Christopherson - we know Mbawke left late - but recently tweeted that he regrets leaving, as he "see's Buzz has kept the program relevant.") Perhaps Trevor had doubts about Buzz - just like many of us did initially - though mine have been completely extinguished - some here remain unsold.
And as for the Hazel situation - he was a Tom Crean recruit who Buzz retained, and who would have played a role - had he not run astray of program rules...which thus lead to his departure.
Considering Crowder, Jones nor Blue have suited up yet your Final Four comment is comical. While I know you put a "big if" on your comment, the fact that you even think that w/o seeing the guys play a BE game is absurd.
Quote from: 79Warrior on May 17, 2010, 09:38:00 AM
Considering Crowder, Jones nor Blue have suited up yet your Final Four comment is comical. While I know you put a "big if" on your comment, the fact that you even think that w/o seeing the guys play a BE game is absurd.
Hey - I've gone out on a limb and made an agressive prediction. This will give you, and some of the others a chance to ridicule me extensively if the 2011-2012 team flames out in the first round of the NCAA, or even 2nd round for that matter. Like you mention, I qualified it with a big "if," so therefore not sure why it is so absurd..that if Jamail Jones or Vander turned out to be the 2nd coming of D-Wade..why we wouldn't be a legitimate Final Four caliber team. Truthfully, I think Jones and Blue just need to be very solid, 12-14ppg players as sophomores for MU to have a chance at the Final Four. Pardon my optimism
Quote from: Marquette84 on May 17, 2010, 06:48:04 AM
The answer lies in your post that tried to establish how bad things were when Buzz took over.
Here's a couple of simple questions for you:
True or false: Buzz inherited a roster of 10 returning players and 3 recruits under LOI the day he was hired.
True or false: Those players were evenly balanced across the classes the day he was hired (4 seniors-to-be, 3 juniors, 3 sophs, 3 frosh).
I'm really trying to understand how you come to the logic that others "completely fabricate and twist things" when you yourself are the biggest offender. In this thread you claim Buzz didn't have a full and balanced roster when he took over--yet you cannot deny the two truths listed above. In other words, you twisted the facts to claim that the cupboard was bare.
The reason why Buzz only had 3 holdovers from Crean this year is because Buzz (by his own choice or not) saw most of the team leave.
Here was the original discussion...and I've posted multiple times how both Crean and Buzz lost LOI guys from the previous coach, dealt with injuries and transfers to their own recruits. Just once, please read what I write. The situations weren't too dissimilar in Year 2. Yes, Buzz had it better because we had Lazar..for sure..but after that...it was all things virtually equal in Year 2. The fact IU lost its last 12 of its last 13 games by roughly 20 points per game is horrendous.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on May 15, 2010, 11:35:07 AM
I think you guys fail to understand how bad it was when Sampson left...and that Crean lost his best recruit when he went down with an injury last year. He's not going to bring them back to the NCAA championship, but he will eventually get them to the NCAA tournament on a regular basis.
I think some MU fans fail to realize how bad it was at MU after Crean left (once the Big 3 graduated) Of course we got 1 year with the Big 3 - but after that, all that was left was basically Lazar, Mo, and Cooby. Both Crean and Buzz were in year 2 of their tenure - Buzz had the above 3 players, and nothing else. Buzz lost his Top 2 recruits - one to injury and one to transfer. Also lost his starting center. (So Crean lost his top-rated recruit?) Yet, somehow, Buzz guided us to a 5th place finish in Big East and 22 wins, and damn near a Sweet 16 birth (if you extrapolate that MU would have beat New Mexico, considering how Washington destroyed them.)
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 17, 2010, 12:03:27 AM
Again, why on earth can't people just appreciate both. I don't get it, never have, never will.
People literally make up crap to bring down TC's record. It's comical.
Oh well, it is what it is. Thank you TC for putting MU back on the map and taking us places that we haven't been in decades. Thank you Buzz for keeping the momentum going. I hope you can also take us to that same place or beyond.
Agree 100%. Who would tell their current boss, co-workers and/or reports that they were offered a new job or seeking a new job? I would like to give TC the benefit of the doubt that once he agreed to take the IU position, things cascaded so fast that contacting people personally before anyone else knew was not possible. I wish him well at IU and so far I am very pleased with Buzz as he has exceeded my expectations.
Quote from: muwarrior69 on May 17, 2010, 10:12:56 AM
Agree 100%. Who would tell their current boss, co-workers and/or reports that they were offered a new job or seeking a new job? I would like to give TC the benefit of the doubt that once he agreed to take the IU position, things cascaded so fast that contacting people personally before anyone else knew was not possible. I wish him well at IU and so far I am very pleased with Buzz as he has exceeded my expectations.
Actually, I was recently offered a new job and told my boss about it, and that I am looking into it. Didn't tell my employees, because I didn't want to cause drama in the office just yet (bunch of women). However, the minute I make the decision to take the new position, they will know. That said, I know TC's situation was on a bigger stage with media and stuff, but all he would have had to do is tell IU that he needs a few hrs or a day to decide, and taken care of the situation at MU. He prob just busted a nut and accepted on the spot, which would be understandable because Its Indiana
For what it is worth, I talked to 3 IU alums while on vacation. They were all probably around my age (28)
They are fine with TC, and what he is doing. They are happy that academics have been restored at IU, and that they aren't embarassed with the way that the ship has been righted. They did say that after this year, winning will start to matter a lot more. They hated Sampson, and felt like he killed a little part of IU.
Also, I had the unfortunate job of telling some older MU grads that the 'Lanche, Gym Bar, et al. are no longer a part of the MU experience... they were sad. :(
Quote from: pbiflyer on May 17, 2010, 08:55:01 AM
Very well said. And I think II,II admin had exactly that in mind when they brought him in. He is what they needed at the time.
Are you nuts?? They pay him 2mm to be a bridge coach? You guys have your heads so far up you respective as### it IS funny.
Not a huge point in all this, but about the part where Cubillan was being underutilized in Year 1. I don't think the Cubillan of this year was anything like the Cubillan of the year before. I think his shoulders were bugging him quite a bit and the extra year removed from the surgery allowed him to be a very productive member of the team. I do agree somewhat with Acker being underused. He proved that he was a solid player when he took over for James. Although, James was playing at such a high level that it was tough to take him off the floor. Also, Acker seems to be someone who plays better in long stretches, and Buzz wasn't taking James off the court.
One of my criticisms I guess with Buzz is sometimes he gets a few guys and sticks with them and the rest of the bench doesn't play as much. Even in the non-conference season, it seems like we leave starters in too long. Although I know a lot of this was shaped by the near-debacle at Rutgers two years ago where we almost lost a 20 pt lead with our subs. I think as he gets players that he has recruited and built relationships with, he might go to a deeper bench. Also, he had to succeed right away or else people would question the hire, so maybe he will be more willing to go to the bench once he establishes himself here.
Quote from: Hards_Alumni on May 17, 2010, 11:15:12 AM
For what it is worth, I talked to 3 IU alums while on vacation. They were all probably around my age (28)
They are fine with TC, and what he is doing. They are happy that academics have been restored at IU, and that they aren't embarassed with the way that the ship has been righted. They did say that after this year, winning will start to matter a lot more. They hated Sampson, and felt like he killed a little part of IU.
Also, I had the unfortunate job of telling some older MU grads that the 'Lanche, Gym Bar, et al. are no longer a part of the MU experience... they were sad. :(
I spoke to an IU alum this saturday night late night in a bar. He is approx. 50 and a long long time footbal and bball season ticket holder. He did not renew his tickets for next year. He thinks Crean is a good enough guy in the sense that he will do things the right way but is absolutely disgusted with his incoming class. Was simply besides himself that Crean could possibly sign that type of class. I had told him two years ago that his loss was our gain, and he said he hoped he was wrong but was beginning to think i might be right.
Quote from: Canadian Dimes on May 17, 2010, 01:36:33 PM
I spoke to an IU alum this saturday night late night in a bar. He is approx. 50 and a long long time footbal and bball season ticket holder. He did not renew his tickets for next year. He thinks Crean is a good enough guy in the sense that he will do things the right way but is absolutely disgusted with his incoming class. Was simply besides himself that Crean could possibly sign that type of class. I had told him two years ago that his loss was our gain, and he said he hoped he was wrong but was beginning to think i might be right.
Did you tell him your heart wrenching story about your son and the MU camp that Crean was at? I'll bet that got him. ::) I always love these types of stories that "long time season ticket holder drops tickets in disgust" and when the season comes around, low and behold the guy is there in his seats 95% of the time. And if he really did drop them and they turn it around (with Crean or some other coach), he's in the back of the line.
By the way, did you see attendance numbers the other day?
MU went from 16,200 in 2009 to 15,617 in 2010. A 3.6% drop
IU went from 14,331 in 2009 to 15,296 in 2010. A 6.74% increase despite a horrible economy.
IU can actually afford attendance drops because they have football and a big check coming from the Big Ten Network each year. MU, unfortunately, relies on attendance in a big way. Let's hope we can turn that aspect around as it is a major source of revenue life for the program we love so much Mr. Hayward.
Quote from: Canadian Dimes on May 17, 2010, 01:36:33 PM
I spoke to an IU alum this saturday night late night in a bar. He is approx. 50 and a long long time footbal and bball season ticket holder. He did not renew his tickets for next year. He thinks Crean is a good enough guy in the sense that he will do things the right way but is absolutely disgusted with his incoming class. Was simply besides himself that Crean could possibly sign that type of class. I had told him two years ago that his loss was our gain, and he said he hoped he was wrong but was beginning to think i might be right.
+1
If Crean cannot get the five star recruit now, what is going to take to get one next year and the year after? Doing well and finishing 6th to 8th in B10? That's what holding back Brandon Dawson and other like him from going to IU?
Again, the expectation was he would be signing 5-star recruits and McDonald's AA like like Izzo and Thad Motta and the IU faithful would be patient while these young/green kids developed over the next few years.
Instead Crean's recruits suggesting he's putting together a solid 6 to 10th place B10 year in and year out. Who is IU going to beat every year besides PSU? They are not beating MSU, OSU, IL, Wisc, Purdue. So everything everything breaks their way and they get lucky, they are 6th in the B10. One thing goes wrong and they are 8th to 10th.
This is not what Bloomington bargained for.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 17, 2010, 02:30:04 PM
MU went from 16,200 in 2009 to 15,617 in 2010. A 3.6% drop
IU went from 14,331 in 2009 to 15,296 in 2010. A 6.74% increase despite a horrible economy.
Chicos, if you give tixs away, you fill seats and then people like you use these inflated numbers to justify the health of a sick program.
----
Economy won't play larger role
February 11, 2009
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=3897386
INDIANAPOLIS -- The NCAA promises not to bust a budget or a bracket when March Madness arrives.
The recession has some schools scrambling to fill budget holes and seats.
Last month, The Associated Press reported Stanford University projects a $5 million shortfall over the next three years and is considering reducing its staff. At Indiana, athletic director Fred Glass has reduced ticket costs for balcony seating to $5, hoping to improve slipping attendance.
----
If MU charged $5 to sit in the balcony they would average 18k.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 17, 2010, 02:30:04 PM
By the way, did you see attendance numbers the other day?
MU went from 16,200 in 2009 to 15,617 in 2010. A 3.6% drop
IU went from 14,331 in 2009 to 15,296 in 2010. A 6.74% increase despite a horrible economy.
You do realize last year MU had a very poor schedule with regard to Saturday games, correct? I believe we had 3 home games - Villanova, South Florida and Notre Dame - on Saturdays, not nearly as many as year's past. Also, considering most people were predicting doom for the program once the Messiah left (and the Big 3 left), perhaps some casual fans weren't inclined to buy MU tickets. Hard to believe attendance was on the rise at IU as the team lost 12 of its last 13 games by average margin of 20+ points - that said I realize they count sold tickets, not actually turnstile counts - the sad reality is that the increased sales illustrate increased expectations for better performance...clearly the product on the floor didn't justify the consumer's expectations.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on May 17, 2010, 02:46:39 PM
If MU charged $5 to sit in the balcony they would average 18k.
Not sure how many tickets were sold in this manner, but there were a number of sections in the corners of the 400s that went for $99 for the season. With 17 home games last year that comes out to $5-$6/game.
Student tickets were also $99 for the entire season last year IIRC.
That's at least 5,000 tix that were sold at less than $6 per game.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 17, 2010, 02:30:04 PM
By the way, did you see attendance numbers the other day?
MU went from 16,200 in 2009 to 15,617 in 2010. A 3.6% drop
IU went from 14,331 in 2009 to 15,296 in 2010. A 6.74% increase despite a horrible economy.
So, the horrible economy isn't an excuse for the 3.6% drop in attendance at MU?
It should be shocking that MU outperforms (in terms of attendance) any public BCS school. 5x the alums? 10x? Then again, I'm sure there are zero entertainment options besides IU basketball in the winter in Bloomington.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on May 17, 2010, 02:34:11 PM
This is not what Bloomington bargained for.
And you know this based on your conversations with President McRobbie, AD Glass, etc? :o
What some of you continue to miss, and most shockingly Mr. Hayward \ Canadian Dimes who lives in the Hoosier state, is that not only to Hoosier fans want to win, but they want to win properly. They were destroyed by what Sampson did. They do not want to go down that path again. This is why the comparisons to Kentucky are absurd. IU is not looking for 1 and done players. There are no quick fixes available to them. There is an "Indiana way" which they are trying to get back to.
What has been made absolutely perfectly clear from McRobbie on down is NO DEALS WITH THE DEVIL to turn it around.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 17, 2010, 02:30:04 PM
By the way, did you see attendance numbers the other day?
MU went from 16,200 in 2009 to 15,617 in 2010. A 3.6% drop
IU went from 14,331 in 2009 to 15,296 in 2010. A 6.74% increase despite a horrible economy.
You are using these numbers to try and prove a point, but I think you are leaving out a lot of very important context.
MU was coming off a season (2009) where they were ranked in the Top 10, and were graduating three of the school's all time leading scorers. They were entering a season where most folks thought they were going to struggle mightily. This explains the drop in attendance. I'm sure the schedule plays a role, but I don't have the time to look up who we played at home in 2009 and 2010 to see the differences...although we did have Bucky to town in 2009 so that's a good example of what I'm getting at.
IU was coming off a horrible season, with a lot of optimism for a much improved on-court product. They didn't get that improved product, but I'm willing to bet that optimism is why attendance was up. It would be interesting to ask the folks that bought the tickets if they thought they got their money's worth and if they had it to do over if they would have done the same thing.
Two programs entering the 2010 season with very different expectations will probably produce a different dynamic in year-over-year ticket sales.
Just goes to show a person can find a number to "prove" anything.
Quote from: warrior07 on May 17, 2010, 02:54:13 PM
So, the horrible economy isn't an excuse for the 3.6% drop in attendance at MU?
It should be shocking that MU outperforms (in terms of attendance) any public BCS school. 5x the alums? 10x? Then again, I'm sure there are zero entertainment options besides IU basketball in the winter in Bloomington.
Uhm, I said the other day the drop in MU attendance was LIKELY due to the economy, the expectations and the home schedule. So I support what you are saying and have since the numbers came out.
My point was that despite the economy, despite having a really crappy team, despite coming off a 1 win conference season, IU put a lot more butts in the stand. Like Crean or hate Crean, he had a way of doing that.
I mention it because our attendance is a lot more important to MU due to finances then it is to IU because of other revenue resources.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on May 17, 2010, 03:12:14 PM
IU was coming off a horrible season, with a lot of optimism for a much improved on-court product.
Really....what optimism? Where? They were picked 10th in the Big Ten. And last week I clearly stated why MU lost attendance....expectations, economy, lackluster home schedule. I didn't disparage MU at all, in fact it wasn't surprising to me that MU dropped due to those circumstances.
I was more surprised at how well IU did. I think you are overblowing the sense of optimism with IU this year, they were still picked near dead last.
The bigger point is that we need to keep our attendance up as it has a much bigger piece of the revenue pie for MU then IU's bball attendance does for IU.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 17, 2010, 03:15:31 PM
My point was that despite the economy, despite having a really crappy team, despite coming off a 1 win conference season, IU put a lot more butts in the stand. Like Crean or hate Crean, he had a way of doing that.
Yes - Crean's frantic pacing up and down the sideline, Diet Pepsi swigging routine, was enough of a sideshow to put my butt in the stands. Had TC just been a stoic coach, no way would I have attended MU games. His off the charts charisma was enough to get me in the building.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 17, 2010, 03:02:40 PM
And you know this based on your conversations with President McRobbie, AD Glass, etc? :o
What some of you continue to miss, and most shockingly Mr. Hayward \ Canadian Dimes who lives in the Hoosier state, is that not only to Hoosier fans want to win, but they want to win properly. They were destroyed by what Sampson did. They do not want to go down that path again. This is why the comparisons to Kentucky are absurd. IU is not looking for 1 and done players. There are no quick fixes available to them. There is an "Indiana way" which they are trying to get back to.
What has been made absolutely perfectly clear from McRobbie on down is NO DEALS WITH THE DEVIL to turn it around.
Hoosier fans (and I suppose the IU administration) were destroyed when Kelvin Sampson did EXACTLY THE SAME THING that he did at Oklahoma? I know the term "hoosier" is sometimes used to describe a gullible rube but that's just too much. Maybe we should cry for the Memphis fans stunned by the duplicitous ways of John Calipari.
Regarding "one and done" types, Crean was all over Irving, Selby, Kendrick and others. He just couldn't close the deal. But keep moving the goal posts closer. Maybe to some an extra point will look like a 55 yd field goal.
While you are quick to point out IU's increased attendance last year, how was it his 1st year vs. Sampson's last year?
Also, if IU wanted to do things only the right way, why did they hire Sampson in the first place? They knew he had been caught by the NCAA regarding his phone calls to recruits, yet still hired him. Then, to top it off, they failed to monitor him. Then, they claimed ignorance after he's caught again.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 17, 2010, 03:02:40 PM
What some of you continue to miss, and most shockingly Mr. Hayward \ Canadian Dimes who lives in the Hoosier state, is that not only to Hoosier fans want to win, but they want to win properly.
I don't need to hear Glass' propaganda/spin to know they
think they are a rebuilding an elite program and none of the recruits Crean is getting (save maybe Creek) are the quality that need to compete with MSU, OSU, IL, Wisc and/or Purdue. I can't even say they are years away from getting to this level because they are simply not getting the horses to compete at this level. You tell me when they will finally land a 5-star McDonald AA type and then we can extrapolate how long it will take for them to overtake MSU.
Patient for something that is not working is rationalizing a failure. Chicos, you were wrong about hiring Buzz and now your book-ending that mistake by defending Crean when it is clearly not working (again because he not getting the quality of recruit IU expects.)
Quote from: Ners on May 17, 2010, 03:22:25 PM
Yes - Crean's frantic pacing up and down the sideline, Diet Pepsi swigging routine, was enough of a sideshow to put my butt in the stands. Had TC just been a stoic coach, no way would I have attended MU games. His off the charts charisma was enough to get me in the building.
Since you're in Texas, I would guess it's probably tough to get you into any building at MU, regardless of who is clapping on the sidelines or sweating through his suit.
Maybe the average fans in Milwaukee and Bloomington\Indy are just not as smart as you can cannot ignore his siren song? Maybe, by sheer coincidence, the schools he's at, attendance seems to increase rather dramatically because of all the mouth breathers out there. I don't know, but I hope MU can turn it back around this year and start on a positive trend again. With Wisconsin coming in to play MU, another year of NCAA tournament participation, Vander Blue coming, should be an increase at the turnstyles one would think.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 17, 2010, 04:32:34 PM
Since you're in Texas, I would guess it's probably tough to get you into any building at MU, regardless of who is clapping on the sidelines or sweating through his suit.
Maybe the average fans in Milwaukee and Bloomington\Indy are just not as smart as you can cannot ignore his siren song? Maybe, by sheer coincidence, the schools he's at, attendance seems to increase rather dramatically because of all the mouth breathers out there. I don't know, but I hope MU can turn it back around this year and start on a positive trend again. With Wisconsin coming in to play MU, another year of NCAA tournament participation, Vander Blue coming, should be an increase at the turnstyles one would think.
I think you missed the point Chicos - the point was people don't attend basketball games to watch the coach, they go watch the quality of the players. As you've said, we had 4 of MU's Top 10 players compliments of Tom Crean playing in the 2008-2009 season - most fans weren't expecting anywhere near the caliber/quality of performance out of last year's team - plus after the early conference season heart breakers, and some here claiming we wouldn't make the NIT after the DePaul loss...the team didn't draw quite as well as in Buzz's first year...maybe due to record, perceived quality of talent on the team, scheduling quirks, no home UW game, etc. This really is kind of a silly point to be debating, but I do realize you will do anything to try to illustrate a positive of Tom Crean at IU thus far, as there haven't been too many highlights.
Quote from: PE8983 on May 17, 2010, 03:34:14 PM
While you are quick to point out IU's increased attendance last year, how was it his 1st year vs. Sampson's last year?
Also, if IU wanted to do things only the right way, why did they hire Sampson in the first place? They knew he had been caught by the NCAA regarding his phone calls to recruits, yet still hired him. Then, to top it off, they failed to monitor him. Then, they claimed ignorance after he's caught again.
IU took a shortcut and all those people involved in that shortcut (sans one) have been fired. They took a chance and it backfired badly for them. This is why it's laughable to read what some people here are saying that IU would take Caliprari in a second. Uhm, no they wouldn't.
IU blew it hiring Sampson and they are paying dearly for it. This is also why they have a LOOONNNNGGGG leash in terms of getting things back on track and any comparison to schools like Kentucky, etc are beyond ridiculous.
Bottonline- IU needs to start winning this year. Maybe NIT
Quote from: Ners on May 17, 2010, 05:07:06 PM
I think you missed the point Chicos - the point was people don't attend basketball games to watch the coach, they go watch the quality of the players. As you've said, we had 4 of MU's Top 10 players compliments of Tom Crean playing in the 2008-2009 season - most fans weren't expecting anywhere near the caliber/quality of performance out of last year's team - plus after the early conference season heart breakers, and some here claiming we wouldn't make the NIT after the DePaul loss...the team didn't draw quite as well as in Buzz's first year...maybe due to record, perceived quality of talent on the team, scheduling quirks, no home UW game, etc. This really is kind of a silly point to be debating, but I do realize you will do anything to try to illustrate a positive of Tom Crean at IU thus far, as there haven't been too many highlights.
I got the point entirely. You are correct, they are not there to watch the coach, well, at least in most cases, but the coach plays a more important role in college hoops than the pros. Watching Knight on the sideline was a treat. Players come and go every few years so the coach is often the face of the program, unlike the pros where the players are clearly the face.
I think what you are missing is my point, which is by luck or skill or PR or blind stupidity, attendance was pretty damn good when Crean was the coach at MU. In fact, it was the best in MU history. Now, plenty of jokes have been made about this which is fine, but when you're a basketball only school and have limited revenues, attendance is hugely important. I think a lot of Milwaukee fans are starting to latch on to Buzz and that may help drive attendance. After his dancing episode that went viral, I assure you that some fans will actually go to see Buzz in action in the hopes he does something a bit nuts. That's how some fans are.
A the end of the day, we need to keep
PAID attendance flat or increasing if at all possible. It is certainly plausible that our down tick in attendance was due to less freebies given out, if so I'm not worried at all. It's possible that our down tick were low revenue tickets, again, if so, not the end of the world. But attendance is important for MU hoops, it's a big chunk of making the world go round.
Quote from: 79Warrior on May 17, 2010, 11:30:28 AM
Are you nuts?? They pay him 2mm to be a bridge coach? You guys have your heads so far up you respective as### it IS funny.
Best words of an interminably ludicrous thread.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 17, 2010, 06:30:13 PM
I got the point entirely. You are correct, they are not there to watch the coach, well, at least in most cases, but the coach plays a more important role in college hoops than the pros. Watching Knight on the sideline was a treat. Players come and go every few years so the coach is often the face of the program, unlike the pros where the players are clearly the face.
I think what you are missing is my point, which is by luck or skill or PR or blind stupidity, attendance was pretty damn good when Crean was the coach at MU. In fact, it was the best in MU history. Now, plenty of jokes have been made about this which is fine, but when you're a basketball only school and have limited revenues, attendance is hugely important. I think a lot of Milwaukee fans are starting to latch on to Buzz and that may help drive attendance. After his dancing episode that went viral, I assure you that some fans will actually go to see Buzz in action in the hopes he does something a bit nuts. That's how some fans are.
A the end of the day, we need to keep PAID attendance flat or increasing if at all possible. It is certainly plausible that our down tick in attendance was due to less freebies given out, if so I'm not worried at all. It's possible that our down tick were low revenue tickets, again, if so, not the end of the world. But attendance is important for MU hoops, it's a big chunk of making the world go round.
Agree with your post in its entirety. Crean did a great job promoting the program, and improving the level of the program from where Mike Deane tanked it to.....Crean did great things for the program..never denied that, but also feel there were a number of empty recruiting classes after the Final Four, which really hurt our ability to become a consisten Sweet 16 type of program. All of this said, I'm jst a much bigger Buzz fan and think he will take this thing higher..assuming he stays for 9 years.
"They took a chance and it backfired badly for them. This is why it's laughable to read what some people here are saying that IU would take Caliprari in a second. Uhm, no they wouldn't."
A "chance". Taking a chance is hiring an unproven coach like MU did with Buzz, or Butler did with Brad Stevens. IU hired a KNOWN cheater, but did so because he was a successful coach. They knew it when they brought him in. Then they did nothing to negate the exact things he got busted for at the previous program. That's the only thing IU and their fans regret - that is the getting busted part and the fact that now they are looked at as a cheating type program.
Calipari, who may seem slimey, has never been nailed for anything. He's no saint, but to say IU would not have taken someone who's never been busted for anything, but would bring in a known cheater seems like an untruth.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on May 17, 2010, 04:03:01 PM
Chicos, you were wrong about hiring Buzz and now your book-ending that mistake by defending Crean when it is clearly not working (again because he not getting the quality of recruit IU expects.)
Maybe you should go back and read what I said in April, 2 years ago about hiring Buzz. I NEVER EVER said Buzz should not be hired, Please, do a search. I said and will continue to say that Buzz could have been had a week, two weeks later. There was no reason to hire him within 48 to 72 hours.
THAT IS WHAT I SAID. I also, clearly, said that the Buzz may be the right guy and a solid hire but that MU should try harder to get a more established coach rather than taking the risk.
THAT IS WHAT I SAID. I have no idea if Crean will work out at IU, nor do you. The only people that matter are those making the decisions at Indiana University.
Quote from: PE8983 on May 17, 2010, 07:03:16 PM
"They took a chance and it backfired badly for them. This is why it's laughable to read what some people here are saying that IU would take Caliprari in a second. Uhm, no they wouldn't."
A "chance". Taking a chance is hiring an unproven coach like MU did with Buzz, or Butler did with Brad Stevens. IU hired a KNOWN cheater, but did so because he was a successful coach. They knew it when they brought him in. Then they did nothing to negate the exact things he got busted for at the previous program. That's the only thing IU and their fans regret - that is the getting busted part and the fact that now they are looked at as a cheating type program.
Calipari, who may seem slimey, has never been nailed for anything. He's no saint, but to say IU would not have taken someone who's never been busted for anything, but would bring in a known cheater seems like an untruth.
You need a timeline apparently....there is no untruth at all to what I'm saying.
Some people believe in giving people a second chance. His violations at Oklahoma were classified as minor per the NCAA. I'd call that taking a chance. The difference is that you have your timeline totally screwed up or are ignoring it.
Sampson was hired by Indiana on March 29, 2006. At that time, OU was under investigation but had not been found guilty of any transgressions. Yes, IU took a chance because they were hiring someone that potentially was a problem, but as of yet was not punished for anything. It wasn't until
after he was at IU that OU was put on probation. You make it sound like he was already convicted and then they hired him, not true at all. So IU never hired a coach that had put a school on probation prior to being hired, this is why they would NOT hire Coach Cal.
Listen, I like Coach Cal. Heard him give a presentation a few weeks ago to our employees. Very interesting guy, goes to church every morning, is absolutely beloved by his players. He made a few comments that no one ever hear's his side of the story, only what you read in the press. There is certainly truth to that. But at the end of the day, everywhere Coach Cal has gone, they've been put not just on probation but serious probation.
Back to the timeline, Coach Cal had his team (UMASS) on probation after he left. Knowing this fact, IU would NEVER hire someone like that knowing this in advance. This is different than Sampson who was hired BEFORE OU was put on probation. A distinction of great importance.
Nevertheless, a bad hire by IU knowing full well that Sampson was tainted and could be put on probation. The embarrassment at the school after the OU sanctions came down were felt throughout the university, who prides itself on doing things a certain way. There's a reason that just about everyone involved with the Sampson hire is long gone.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 17, 2010, 07:58:06 PM
Maybe you should go back and read what I said in April, 2 years ago about hiring Buzz. I NEVER EVER said Buzz should not be hired, Please, do a search. I said and will continue to say that Buzz could have been had a week, two weeks later. There was no reason to hire him within 48 to 72 hours. THAT IS WHAT I SAID. I also, clearly, said that the Buzz may be the right guy and a solid hire but that MU should try harder to get a more established coach rather than taking the risk. THAT IS WHAT I SAID.
I have no idea if Crean will work out at IU, nor do you. The only people that matter are those making the decisions at Indiana University.
With all due respect, despote what your crystal ball may have told you at the time, how could you possibly have known Buzz could have been hired two weeks later. Are you suggesting that there simply was no way another program - Indiana or Kentucky, for example - couldn't have landed him with a lucrative assistant deal? Are you saying that you know for certain he would have waited patiently and happily for two weeks or more as Plan K while MU tried to land numerous other guys? Do you know that Buzz would even have wanted to go to a place where he was viewed as the coach of last resort?
Perhaps he would have.
I have no idea.
Neither do you.What we do know is that the people in power at MU felt very comfortable with Buzz and after reaching out to a couple other possible candidates - and being turned down - they went with who they felt was best suited for the job. There was, in their mind, no reason to wait two more weeks or contact 10 other guys. The guy they wanted already was there.
So far there's no reason to believe they were wrong, and certainly no reason to believe MU would be any better off had they waited.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 17, 2010, 03:15:31 PM
My point was that despite the economy, despite having a really crappy team, despite coming off a 1 win conference season, IU put a lot more butts in the stand. Like Crean or hate Crean, he had a way of doing that.
Chicos -- You are out of your freaking mind. Completely off the rails. We know as an ironclad fact (another annoying thing about this douche bag) that he ROUTINELY inflated numbers at MU...especially when ESPN was in the house. Anybody recall the "largest crowd to watch a college basketball game in Wisconsin" schtick? It was unseemly as hell, especially when the Gameday crew were setup, swallowing 50 seats or so. This is a guy who'd literally tell the Bradley Center music guy when to queue up "Cotton Eyed Joe" -- he's a paranoid, micromanager.
You are smarter than that.
I cannot wait until Crean gets fired and tries to make inroads about getting back in good graces at MU. And I cannot wait for the day that he makes an appearance at the BC. I will boo the tan right off his swollen, defeated body.
Quote from: Pakuni on May 17, 2010, 08:53:19 PM
With all due respect, despote what your crystal ball may have told you at the time, how could you possibly have known Buzz could have been hired two weeks later. Are you suggesting that there simply was no way another program - Indiana or Kentucky, for example - couldn't have landed him with a lucrative assistant deal? Are you saying that you know for certain he would have waited patiently and happily for two weeks or more as Plan K while MU tried to land numerous other guys? Do you know that Buzz would even have wanted to go to a place where he was viewed as the coach of last resort?
Perhaps he would have.
I have no idea.
Neither do you.
What we do know is that the people in power at MU felt very comfortable with Buzz and after reaching out to a couple other possible candidates - and being turned down - they went with who they felt was best suited for the job. There was, in their mind, no reason to wait two more weeks or contact 10 other guys. The guy they wanted already was there.
So far there's no reason to believe they were wrong, and certainly no reason to believe MU would be any better off had they waited.
How can you say this? Doesn't Chicos have a degree in mindreading?
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 17, 2010, 07:58:06 PM
Maybe you should go back and read what I said in April, 2 years ago about hiring Buzz. I NEVER EVER said Buzz should not be hired, Please, do a search. I said and will continue to say that Buzz could have been had a week, two weeks later. There was no reason to hire him within 48 to 72 hours. THAT IS WHAT I SAID. I also, clearly, said that the Buzz may be the right guy and a solid hire but that MU should try harder to get a more established coach rather than taking the risk. THAT IS WHAT I SAID.
I have no idea if Crean will work out at IU, nor do you. The only people that matter are those making the decisions at Indiana University.
Pakuni has already blown up the idea that you knew (divined?) that Buzz would have been available/interested a week or two later so let's focus on your next statement - "that MU should try harder to get a more established coach rather than taking the risk" on Buzz. So while you never actually said Buzz should not be hired, you did say that he should only be hired if MU was unable to find an "established coach" anywhere to take the job. In other words, as a last resort. A ringing endorsement if I've ever heard one.
Quote from: Pakuni on May 17, 2010, 08:53:19 PM
With all due respect, despote what your crystal ball may have told you at the time, how could you possibly have known Buzz could have been hired two weeks later. Are you suggesting that there simply was no way another program - Indiana or Kentucky, for example - couldn't have landed him with a lucrative assistant deal? Are you saying that you know for certain he would have waited patiently and happily for two weeks or more as Plan K while MU tried to land numerous other guys? Do you know that Buzz would even have wanted to go to a place where he was viewed as the coach of last resort?
Perhaps he would have.
I have no idea.
Neither do you.
What we do know is that the people in power at MU felt very comfortable with Buzz and after reaching out to a couple other possible candidates - and being turned down - they went with who they felt was best suited for the job. There was, in their mind, no reason to wait two more weeks or contact 10 other guys. The guy they wanted already was there.
So far there's no reason to believe they were wrong, and certainly no reason to believe MU would be any better off had they waited.
Oh please, an assistant coach who had one season as a head coach with a losing record and walked out on the job a few months before the 2nd season started wasn't going to be there? Stop. Of course he would have been. He was either going to go with Crean to IU or with Billy, but they would both have waited if he said he's one of the candidates for the head gig at MU. He had zero head coaching jobs and could have been had a week or two later, to suggest anything else is completely ridiculous.
Lenny, you are incorrect...as usual. At least you were intellectually honest to admit that I never said he shouldn't be hired, unlike the other poster in this thread. It's all there in the search functionality. I wanted MU to go after an established coach with some pedigree first. If that didn't work out, then Buzz would be fine. It doesn't matter if it's a ringing endorsement or not, I was tired of MU constantly going after risks when they finally were in a position to make an effort for a coach that wasn't a risk. For whatever reason, MU decided that after Miller and Bennett, that was it, God forbid you talk to anyone else. I felt MU could have taken a week or two and done that, if it didn't work out, Buzz wasn't going anywhere and to suggest he would have been somewhere else is one of the stupidest arguments I've seen on this board. Would he have ANY JOB that would be better than the MU head coaching job at that point in his career? HELL NO, so he wasn't going anywhere. Even if he did take a gig with Crean at IU, it's not like he couldn't become the MU coach two weeks later. It's a preposterous notion on your part and Pakuni's.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 16, 2010, 01:31:44 PM
MU had an All Big East first team pre-season selection (Hayward). IU, no players even close.
MU had a player that would earn Honorable Mention All Big East player (Butler). IU, maybe if their best player didn't blow out his leg before the Big Ten season started.
MU had Wisconsin High School player of the Year with Maymon (before transferring). IU, no players that fit that bill.
MU had an All American JUCO first team in DJO.
I could go on. One team had very good players coming back, the other team is still stacked with freshmen and sophomores, mostly, that they had to take flyers on just to fill a team. Players, with the exception of 5 kids, probably should be in the MAC or lower but they needed warm bodies to compete.
That's why I asked if it was in teal. There were posters here that picked MU for the NCAAs and were right. There was not a person in America that picked IU for the NCAAs.
I doubt you could find one expert, one computer poll, one ranking system anywhere in the universe that predicted IU would be better than MU last year and the reason was pretty simple, MU had a lot more raw material to work with than IU did.
Thus, I asked if the question was in teal. Apparently, it wasn't.
I think it's true that some here simply just under-appreciate what Crean did overall for the program and i'd agree that Buzz had a better situation going into this year than Crean did, but you also aren't being fair by failing to state a huge factor in why Buzz had a better situation.
Buzz brought in two JUCO guys in Butler/DJO that were
major factors in the success of this years Marquette team which greatly exceeded the preseason beliefs most had for the team. On the flip side, the two JUCO guys that Crean brought in to IU, Devin Dumes and Tijan Jobe, they weren't productive at all for Crean this year.
If you just flipped only those 4 guys and instead Crean landed Butler/DJO as his recruits while Buzz had to win with Dumes/Jobe, you'd have seen the records for both teams be quite different. The ability of Buzz to land Butler/DJO was huge for him and the program, while Crean getting much less in Dumes/Jobe is a huge factor in why Buzz had much more success than Crean had. If Buzz had inherited Butler/DJO, your argument would have more teeth, but Buzz went and got them while Crean largely whiffed in comparison with the two JUCO guys he went and got.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 17, 2010, 03:19:31 PM
Really....what optimism? Where? They were picked 10th in the Big Ten. And last week I clearly stated why MU lost attendance....expectations, economy, lackluster home schedule. I didn't disparage MU at all, in fact it wasn't surprising to me that MU dropped due to those circumstances.
I was more surprised at how well IU did. I think you are overblowing the sense of optimism with IU this year, they were still picked near dead last.
Let's assume you're right that there were pretty low of expectations among the majority of IU fans for last year's team.
What would be the reason for those quite low levels of optimism? Wouldn't that be that the IU fans looked at the roster Cream assembled and found little reason to be excited? If then say IU fans go into this coming season with again pretty low of expectations and excitement, wouldn't that also be because the fans look at the roster Crean has assembled and it doesn't excite them much?
The reasons that fans of any college program generally get excited and have optimism is if they either think the team that year likely has enough good players to at least get into the NCAA Tournament or if a team will be young that thus might be inconsistent, but if it has some really high quality young recruits/talent, that will also have fans looking forward to the upcoming season as is the case for Marquette's incoming recruiting class.
For right now at least, the reason Crean hasn't been able to raise the optimism more is that he's largely failed at both things i mentioned. IU fans have looked at the teams he's put together and not only saw little to no reason those teams would win, Crean also hasn't had enough of the kind of recruiting successes that could still keep fans excited even if those fans felt some inconsistency could come along with the high level recruiting classes. So if you were a big IU fan and looked at the players left over for this year coupled with his latest recruiting class, what's exactly there to get overly excited about?
I can't believe some people still cannot seperate the process from the results, for hiring of HC.
The process was HORRENDOUS and was the same type of process that got Marquette in trouble with this Dean fiasco. Sometimes fate finds a way to treat Marquette in spite of itself.
I'm super duper glad Buzz is working out well. But that doesn't mean hiring a one-year assistant coach after 48 hours of searching is the best way to find a new head coach. Cottingham either thinks Marquette isn't a destiny job or was too incompetent to call more than three people for the position.
Relatedly, people have to stop this obnoxious continuum of Buzz good, Crean evil versus Buzz bad, Crean good. One does not depend on the other (though I do think Crean was evil...).
Quote from: warrior07 on May 18, 2010, 07:43:52 AM
I can't believe some people still cannot seperate the process from the results, for hiring of HC.
The process was HORRENDOUS and was the same type of process that got Marquette in trouble with this Dean fiasco. Sometimes fate finds a way to treat Marquette in spite of itself.
I'm super duper glad Buzz is working out well. But that doesn't mean hiring a one-year assistant coach after 48 hours of searching is the best way to find a new head coach. Cottingham either thinks Marquette isn't a destiny job or was too incompetent to call more than three people for the position.
Relatedly, people have to stop this obnoxious continuum of Buzz good, Crean evil versus Buzz bad, Crean good. One does not depend on the other (though I do think Crean was evil...).
*This is a tiresome debate and I probably shouldn't respond but what the hell I got some down time and am bored.*
Cottingham WANTED BUZZ WILLIAMS TO BE COACH. Cottingham knew Buzz was a hard worker and a good recruiter and Cottingham put(s) a premium on recruiting.
That's why there was only a 48 hr search, he already knew the man he wanted and observed him for over a year....why wait two weeks when you have the man you want.
If Cottingham wasn't fully sold on Buzz I'm sure he would have interviewed the trolley of mid major coaches. But he was.
As for the process I wholly disagree. As long as you hire a competent leader in your AD man you let him/her drive the ship in hirings, one man runs the "process" and it follows his timeline, 1 hr, 50 hrs, 5000 hrs.
The bottom line is that everybody knew what Sampson was getting busted for at Oklahoma, yet IU hired him. They didn't wait until the penalties were finalized like they could have. They could have done their due diligence and dug deep down into this. They could have put a clause in his contract that if he was officially busted by the NCAA, that his contract would be terminated and he would be fired immediately. That didn't happen. If they were so concerned about being a squeaky clean program like you think they are, they wouldn't have hired him - period. There are plenty of good coaches out there who aren't on the NCAA police blotter. It shouldn't be too difficult to bring one to the type of high profile top 10 program that IU is. Why does IU have to take "a chance" on a cheater, or as you say, one who is about to get busted for cheating? They wanted a high profile successful coach that was winning. Winning was the bottom line. Otherwise, they wouldn't have hired someone who had issues like he did.
If there had another high profile coach interested in the job, say like Calipari (who's never been busted for anything), they would have hired him in a heartbeat. Maybe not after Sampson due to the IU's impending NCAA sanctions, but certainly when Sampson was hired. Calipari didn't put UMass on probation - Marcus Camby did. He didn't put Memphis on probation - Derrick Rose did. God, I can't believe I'm actually defending Calipari. The bottom line is Sampson put Oklahoma on probation - nobody else. He was knowingly violating NCAA rules, and then IU did nothing to negate it from happening at their school.
Quote from: warrior07 on May 18, 2010, 07:43:52 AM
The process was HORRENDOUS and was the same type of process that got Marquette in trouble with this Dean fiasco. Sometimes fate finds a way to treat Marquette in spite of itself.
I'm super duper glad Buzz is working out well. But that doesn't mean hiring a one-year assistant coach after 48 hours of searching is the best way to find a new head coach. Cottingham either thinks Marquette isn't a destiny job or was too incompetent to call more than three people for the position.
Truer words have never been spoken. Somebody put it well the other day, it appears we struck oil with Buzz but the hiring process was an embarrassment. And frankly, it was apparent during his first year on the job with a couple of behavioral incidents that he wasn't completely ready. Year 2 was MUCH, MUCH better from a comportment point of view.
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on May 18, 2010, 08:20:28 AM
Truer words have never been spoken. Somebody put it well the other day, it appears we struck oil with Buzz but the hiring process was an embarrassment. And frankly, it was apparent during his first year on the job with a couple of behavioral incidents that he wasn't completely ready. Year 2 was MUCH, MUCH better from a comportment point of view.
I'm gonna play devil's advocate here. My question would be this. Would you rather have a search process like Oregon's, with high profile coaches resisting their advances publicly?
I guess I want to know how you guys know that bigger names weren't called in private, and declined.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 18, 2010, 12:30:57 AM
Oh please, an assistant coach who had one season as a head coach with a losing record and walked out on the job a few months before the 2nd season started wasn't going to be there?
This is the most disingenuous statement you've ever made Chicos.
We all know what was going on at UNO. He did NOT walk out. UNO was not keeping promises, as is well documented. They were on a path to extinction. Buzz has proven to be a man of great integrity, as those who have crossed his path in MKE all know.
Quote from: warrior07 on May 18, 2010, 07:43:52 AM
The process was HORRENDOUS and was the same type of process that got Marquette in trouble with this Dean fiasco. Sometimes fate finds a way to treat Marquette in spite of itself.
I'm super duper glad Buzz is working out well. But that doesn't mean hiring a one-year assistant coach after 48 hours of searching is the best way to find a new head coach. Cottingham either thinks Marquette isn't a destiny job or was too incompetent to call more than three people for the position.
Could it be that Cottingham believed in Buzz all along and was able to see what he eventually became? Why was it just dumb luck? Remember that Cottingham was also on the line with the Buzz hire. If Buzz failed, Cottingham's seat would have be at risk as well.
---
When something Cottingham does doesn't work out, he is stupid. When something Cottingham does actually works out, he got lucky but let's criticize the process.
MU is 120 year old institution, is their a documented case of an AD doing something correctly?
I agree everyone in the coaching business knew Buzz Williams was an up and comer. Gillespie wanted him at UK, Crean wanted him at MU. He was one of the most highly sought after assistant coaches in the country with a great track record of signing stud recruits. cottingham had a 1 year trial in which he saw him and what he was all about. After Mu could not get the two or three wish list guys Buzz was a no brainer. Simple as that and really a no brainer.
Secondly the poster that compared the Buzz hiring to Deane is truly a moron. Mike Deane had doen areally good job at Siena. He as a 14 seed had won an NCaa game and also gone to the NIT finals. He put together some really good seasons. No different than Mike Rice, or Thad Matta or Skip Prosser. Etc. he had had some really good seasons and was the hot mid major coach du jour. completely different and completely dumb, what were you in diapers when MU hired Deane?
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on May 18, 2010, 08:20:28 AM
Truer words have never been spoken. Somebody put it well the other day, it appears we struck oil with Buzz but the hiring process was an embarrassment. And frankly, it was apparent during his first year on the job with a couple of behavioral incidents that he wasn't completely ready. Year 2 was MUCH, MUCH better from a comportment point of view.
If we handled it like DePaul's hiring of Parnell, you'd be even more critical. Maybe we could have interviewed Isiah two years ago. Would that have made things better?
What you wanted was unrealistic. You wanted a bunch of retreads lining up to crawl over cut glass to get the job. It doesn't work that way ... anywhere.
In the end we handle the process like Pitt used to hire Dixon? Worked for them, worked for us. Quickly promoting an assistant can work. Besides it's what we do ... See Raymonds, see Majerus. Had we stuck with Fat Rick long enough, would we have gotten the Utah version?
Quote from: MUfan12 on May 18, 2010, 09:09:17 AM
I'm gonna play devil's advocate here. My question would be this. Would you rather have a search process like Oregon's, with high profile coaches resisting their advances publicly?
I guess I want to know how you guys know that bigger names weren't called in private, and declined.
A very fair question. I think something of this nature happened, IIRC. Cottingham called three coaches (can't remember which three) during the first 48 hours after Crean left, and then "settled" on Buzz.
I'm delighted by Buzz thusfar, but 95 times out of 100, in the situation where 3 more established coaches have turned down a school in only 48 hours after the search begins, it would be prudent to continue seeking more established candidates before "settling" (to use too loaded a word, but you get my point) with the one year assistant coach. Fortunately, we seem so far to have hit one out of the five times out of 100 that such a scenario bears success.
Quote from: PuertoRicanNightmare on May 18, 2010, 08:20:28 AM
Truer words have never been spoken. Somebody put it well the other day, it appears we struck oil with Buzz but the hiring process was an embarrassment. And frankly, it was apparent during his first year on the job with a couple of behavioral incidents that he wasn't completely ready. Year 2 was MUCH, MUCH better from a comportment point of view.
Some fans put too much emphasis on "behavioral incidents," of a head coach - so long as they don't become Bobby Knight-like where they involve violence, chair throwing, excessive profanity, or behave in a surly fashion in a press conference - I don't see the big deal?? I kind of like a little passion and fire out of a coach. I assume you are referencing Buzz's behavior at the end of the Mizzou game in the NCAA in Year 1? Take a minute and think how upset we as fan's can get over an MU loss - now amplify that by about 100 times - that's probably the level of emotion coaches feel with regard to their team..considering how much time, effort and energy they invest in recruiting/coaching/developing these players and game plans.
Quote from: Ners on May 18, 2010, 10:13:40 AM
Some fans put too much emphasis on "behavioral incidents," of a head coach - so long as they don't become Bobby Knight-like where they involve violence, chair throwing, excessive profanity, or behave in a surly fashion in a press conference - I don't see the big deal?? I kind of like a little passion and fire out of a coach. I assume you are referencing Buzz's behavior at the end of the Mizzou game in the NCAA in Year 1? Take a minute and think how upset we as fan's can get over an MU loss - now amplify that by about 100 times - that's probably the level of emotion coaches feel with regard to their team..considering how much time, effort and energy they invest in recruiting/coaching/developing these players and game plans.
I think he was alluding to the Jimmy Mac thing.
Quote from: warrior07 on May 18, 2010, 07:43:52 AM
I can't believe some people still cannot seperate the process from the results, for hiring of HC.
The process was HORRENDOUS and was the same type of process that got Marquette in trouble with this Dean fiasco. Sometimes fate finds a way to treat Marquette in spite of itself.
I'm super duper glad Buzz is working out well. But that doesn't mean hiring a one-year assistant coach after 48 hours of searching is the best way to find a new head coach. Cottingham either thinks Marquette isn't a destiny job or was too incompetent to call more than three people for the position.
Relatedly, people have to stop this obnoxious continuum of Buzz good, Crean evil versus Buzz bad, Crean good. One does not depend on the other (though I do think Crean was evil...).
I agree. I'm happy with Buzz's results, though some from the JUCO route and taking kids that never step foot on campus due to grades is troubling to me. But he has continued to carry the ball.....but he could have been had a week or two later. MU is classic at screwing up searches. It's not hard, companies successfully do them all the time.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 18, 2010, 10:16:32 AM
I agree. I'm happy with Buzz's results, though some from the JUCO route and taking kids that never step foot on campus due to grades is troubling to me. But he has continued to carry the ball.....but he could have been had a week or two later. MU is classic at screwing up searches. It's not hard, companies successfully do them all the time.
Plenty of companies conduct the search exactly the way you want and wind up with a dud. The only thing that matters is the result. In this case the result worked out ... criticism of a successful process (again we got a good HC) says more about the poster than about the process.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on May 18, 2010, 10:19:40 AM
Plenty of companies conduct the search exactly the way you want and wind up with a dud. The only thing that matters is the result. In this case the result worked out ... criticism of a successful process (again we got a good HC) says more about the poster than about the process.
Yes, the only thing that matters is the result. But, as I said, I think that 95 times out of 100 doing the process as we did would not yield good results. Fortunately, we landed one of the five out of 100 in this type of scenario.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 18, 2010, 10:16:32 AM
I agree. I'm happy with Buzz's results, though some from the JUCO route and taking kids that never step foot on campus due to grades is troubling to me. But he has continued to carry the ball.....but he could have been had a week or two later. MU is classic at screwing up searches. It's not hard, companies successfully do them all the time.
You get upset when I say D-Wade was the key factor in the Final Four run (even though I've provided ample evidence to support that claim) - by saying that as a result of making that point, I'm disrespecting what contribution Diener, Novak, RJack and Merritt made....YET..you have the audacity to say JUCOs are "troubling" to you?? Is that basically not disrespecting Jimmy Butler, DJO, Fulce, Dwight Buycks - who all have been model citizens, good performers on court, and good ambassadors of the program??
Quote from: warrior07 on May 18, 2010, 10:23:34 AM
Yes, the only thing that matters is the result. But, as I said, I think that 95 times out of 100 doing the process as we did would not yield good results. Fortunately, we landed one of the five out of 100 in this type of scenario.
You know nothing about what process took place, yet you criticize it because of the duration.
Sounds like someone just looking to complain without most or any real facts.
Quote from: Stone Cold on May 18, 2010, 10:46:03 AM
You know nothing about what process took place, yet you criticize it because of the duration.
Sounds like someone just looking to complain without most or any real facts.
I know this sounds impossible, but it is possible to criticize the process and be happy with the results. Take off your blue and gold glasses for a minute.
Quote from: warrior07 on May 18, 2010, 10:49:07 AM
I know this sounds impossible, but it is possible to criticize the process and be happy with the results. Take off your blue and gold glasses for a minute.
You don't know what the process is or was. You just want to complain....take off your nagger glasses.
Ok, genius, tell us all exactly what the process was.
Quote from: warrior07 on May 18, 2010, 10:13:25 AM
A very fair question. I think something of this nature happened, IIRC. Cottingham called three coaches (can't remember which three) during the first 48 hours after Crean left, and then "settled" on Buzz.
I'm delighted by Buzz thusfar, but 95 times out of 100, in the situation where 3 more established coaches have turned down a school in only 48 hours after the search begins, it would be prudent to continue seeking more established candidates before "settling" (to use too loaded a word, but you get my point) with the one year assistant coach. Fortunately, we seem so far to have hit one out of the five times out of 100 that such a scenario bears success.
The problem with your scenario is that it assumes Cottingham and the administration believed they were "settling" for Buzz. For all any of us know, Buzz was at or near the top of Cottingham's list of potential replacements long before Crean left. When the two guys above him said 'No thanks" he went with #3. It's easy to assume that a "one-year assistant" without much head coaching experience wouldn't be atop that list, but Cottingham had been around the guy for almost a year, had seen him coach, had seen him recruit, had seen him interact with the university community. Basically, he had seen all the things about Buzz that have impressed most of us since his hiring. To us, Buzz was largely an unknown, so his hiring might seem to you like "settling." Cottingham, however, was coming at it from a very different perspective than you or I, or even the all-knowing commenters here.
Oh, and could you list the 95 times out of 100 where such a situation bears failure?
Sorry to hear you don't know what statistical probability is, Pakuni. I wasn't referring to actual hires.
Quote from: warrior07 on May 18, 2010, 10:53:59 AM
Ok, genius, tell us all exactly what the process was.
All I know is you don't know.
I know one thing in regards to coaching searches:
1) I don't want committees making the call, I want one or two at the most individuals making the call. It introduces real accountability.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 18, 2010, 10:16:32 AM
I agree. I'm happy with Buzz's results, though some from the JUCO route and taking kids that never step foot on campus due to grades is troubling to me. But he has continued to carry the ball.....but he could have been had a week or two later. MU is classic at screwing up searches. It's not hard, companies successfully do them all the time.
Who are "the kids that never set foot on campus due to grades" that are troubling to you?
Quote from: Stone Cold on May 18, 2010, 11:02:36 AM
All I know is you don't know.
I know one thing in regards to coaching searches:
1) I don't want committees making the call, I want one or two at the most individuals making the call. It introduces real accountability.
You don't know that I know that Cottingham called 3 guys, they said no, and after 48 hours they went with Buzz? Alright. But that was the consensus about what happened at the time.
Let me be devil's advocate. Let's say this is exactly what happened. Do you then have any problem with it?
If not, then it seems that you are just bitter that someone is criticizing the process at all.
Quote from: warrior07 on May 18, 2010, 11:00:18 AM
Sorry to hear you don't know what statistical probability is, Pakuni. I wasn't referring to actual hires.
I (and I'm sure Pakuni) know what statistical probability is and what it isn't. And it isn't a number you make up because it sounds about right to you or because it advances your argument. Other than your intuition how did you come up with your number(s)?
... and we don't know who might have called Cottingham and he said no. I seem to remember that Skip Prosser was interested but we were not interested in him.
All hiring processes are messy. In fact the best companies are like GE, they hire lots and weed out (dare I say they "run them off"). Criticizing a hiring process for one spot can only be done based on the outcome/results. Think the hiring process for President of The US. You think that is a good process? You can only judge it by its results.
added ....
Also taking weeks to find a new hire risked the 2008/2009 season. It could have meant more transfers and lost recruits. A decision was made to move fast because we have a good team and not repeat the DePaul process as so many seem to think was a good way to go about it.
Quote from: warrior07 on May 18, 2010, 11:00:18 AM
Sorry to hear you don't know what statistical probability is, Pakuni. I wasn't referring to actual hires.
Statistical probability: The process of pulling random numbers out of one's rectum and stating them as fact in furtherance of a position.
99 times out of 100, Pakuni is right.
Disagree? Then perhaps you need to brush up on statistical probability.
Great. You are not happy with 95 out of 100 times, it would make more sense to interview more than three established coaches over a 48 hour period before going with the one year assistant coach.
Feel free to come up with what you feel is a better probability.
Quote from: warrior07 on May 18, 2010, 11:27:29 AM
Great. You are not happy with 95 out of 100 times, it would make more sense to interview more than three established coaches over a 48 hour period before going with the one year assistant coach.
Feel free to come up with what you feel is a better probability.
I'd suggest there probably is not enough of a sample size (instances of one-year assistants being elevated to a head coaching job after a brief search process involving perhaps as few as two other candidates) to determine statisical probability.
But you seem to be the expert here.
Quote from: warrior07 on May 18, 2010, 11:27:29 AM
Great. You are not happy with 95 out of 100 times, it would make more sense to interview more than three established coaches over a 48 hour period before going with the one year assistant coach.
Feel free to come up with what you feel is a better probability.
So it is required to bring in a bunch of old retreads/farts that you may not want just to make a bunch of idiots on a message board happy? As someone said earlier ... in the first 48 hours Miller and Bennett said no and the third option, Buzz, said yes. Why waste more time talking to guys you do not want (Skip Prosser as I noted earlier).
Quote from: Pakuni on May 18, 2010, 11:33:37 AM
I'd suggest there probably is not enough of a sample size (instances of one-year assistants being elevated to a head coaching job after a brief search process involving perhaps as few as two other candidates) to determine statisical probability.
But you seem to be the expert here.
WARRIOR07 - May I kindly suggest you stop already? You are being owned.
Quote from: ATL MU Warrior on May 18, 2010, 11:59:12 AM
WARRIOR07 - May I kindly suggest you stop already? You are being owned.
Haha, truth.
I guess this proves my point. Most people cannot seperate the process from the results.
Quote from: warrior07 on May 18, 2010, 12:31:44 PM
I guess this proves my point. Most people cannot seperate the process from the results.
So you're sayin' there's a chance....
Quote from: warrior07 on May 18, 2010, 12:31:44 PM
I guess this proves my point. Most people cannot seperate the process from the results.
Sure. That's it.
Or maybe it's that most people recognize that process ultimately is irrelevant. Nobody ever won a college basketball game because they followed a hiring process designed to appease the all-knowing inhabitants of an Internet mesage board.
And maybe we just like to poke fun at people who criticize a process of which they did not participate and have no first-hand (or second- or third-hand) knowledge.
Well, except for a few people around here who know everything, can predict future outcomes and know how other people will react in every circumstance.
Quote from: warrior07 on May 18, 2010, 07:43:52 AM
The process was HORRENDOUS and was the same type of process that got Marquette in trouble with this Dean fiasco. Sometimes fate finds a way to treat Marquette in spite of itself.
No. The Dean's process was actually exactly opposite of the process that ended up with Buzz. The Dean's had a search committee...Buzz's didn't. The Dean's search was lengthy and comprehensive...Buzz's wasn't. The Dean's search was very open with campus wide participation...Buzz's wasn't.
Yet, which one was the failure?
It's silly to be obsessed about the process when the results are what matters. I have made good and bad hires using both types. The process is as good as the result it produces.
Quote from: warrior07 on May 18, 2010, 11:11:39 AM
You don't know that I know that Cottingham called 3 guys, they said no, and after 48 hours they went with Buzz? Alright. But that was the consensus about what happened at the time.
Let me be devil's advocate. Let's say this is exactly what happened. Do you then have any problem with it?
If not, then it seems that you are just bitter that someone is criticizing the process at all.
Are you unhappy with the result?
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on May 18, 2010, 01:10:18 PM
No. The Dean's process was actually exactly opposite of the process that ended up with Buzz. The Dean's had a search committee...Buzz's didn't. The Dean's search was lengthy and comprehensive...Buzz's wasn't. The Dean's search was very open with campus wide participation...Buzz's wasn't.
Yet, which one was the failure?
It's silly to be obsessed about the process when the results are what matters. I have made good and bad hires using both types. The process is as good as the result it produces.
This is correct. Also, processes work great in mass scale. Say you wanted to find the top 1000 accountants for a new firm. Clearly a comprehensive process is needed to identify, interview, compare, and ultimately hire the best candidates.
But, when you narrow that down to 1 key spot, the "process" really becomes about the result. You can search high and low and around the world, but if you don't find the right guy/girl, you failed. It's not an exact science when you are looking for 1 spot.
Realistically, no company uses a "process" to decide who the hire. The process is really just to get the best candidates identified. Ultimately, it's up to the responsible hiring party (in this case the AD) to make the decision with input from BOT, large donars, etc.
I'm a big fan of "process" for some things, and recognize it's rightful place. But, installing "process" on a small scale really probably doesn't increase the success rate.
Put it this way: If you had 1 free throw and your life depended on it, would it be wise to go through a warm up process for a few minutes?
Yes, that would probably lead to a higher success rate.
But, would it make sense to shoot free throws for 8 straight hours before shooting your 1 free throw? Probably not.
The incremental gain for the time spent probably wouldn't help in this scenario.
Quote from: mu-rara on May 18, 2010, 09:33:43 AM
This is the most disingenuous statement you've ever made Chicos.
We all know what was going on at UNO. He did NOT walk out. UNO was not keeping promises, as is well documented. They were on a path to extinction. Buzz has proven to be a man of great integrity, as those who have crossed his path in MKE all know.
You've missed the point completely. I've asked this question many times and the answer has always been honest.
In 2008, after Buzz had left New Orleans and took the job at MU as an assistant, was he going to be offered a head coaching job anywhere other than MU? The answer by EVERYONE with a brain cell is NO. At least not that year, not coming off what had been done.
You are reading way to much into my comments. I'm not blaming him for leaving UNO, I'm stating a fact that he left UNO late in the game and you can damn well bet your ass that 99% of the AD's in this country aren't going to put their necks out to hire someone like that so soon. Which is EXACTLY why I'm saying he wasn't going anywhere. There is no job that he could take in that year that would be better than the MU job, so he could be had a week or two weeks later
Quote from: ATWizJr on May 18, 2010, 02:16:55 PM
Are you unhappy with the result?
I'm very happy about this result so far.
But if you look at the way the University has half-assed other searches -- the Dean thing, Cottingham's own position, the Provost (who was a dime a dozen Communications prof at SLU about 12 minutes before he was the MU Provost), Marquette has a history of lazily filling very serious positions. I think we've lucked out with Buzz. My concern with the process is I don't know if that luck will be repeated with the same process.
In fact, I think the Dean thing suggests that incompetence at hiring is very much an issue at MU. In many ways, yes, the Dean thing was the polar opposite. The job has been open since December, 2007. Which should be embarassing. But the similarity is the quirky way MU has tried to fill the position.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 18, 2010, 03:03:32 PM
You've missed the point completely. I've asked this question many times and the answer has always been honest.
In 2008, after Buzz had left New Orleans and took the job at MU as an assistant, was he going to be offered a head coaching job anywhere other than MU? The answer by EVERYONE with a brain cell is NO. At least not that year, not coming off what had been done.
You are reading way to much into my comments. I'm not blaming him for leaving UNO, I'm stating a fact that he left UNO late in the game and you can damn well bet your ass that 99% of the AD's in this country aren't going to put their necks out to hire someone like that so soon. Which is EXACTLY why I'm saying he wasn't going anywhere. There is no job that he could take in that year that would be better than the MU job, so he could be had a week or two weeks later
You're right ... it is very unlikely any other program was going to hire Buzz as head coach in 2008.
But where you're wrong is assuming that means he would have happily waited hanging in the breeze while MU interviewed/contacted numerous other coaches, setting him aside as its coach of last resort.
I think it's safe to say that if Buzz learned nothing else from his UNO experience, it's to be very careful about choosing his next head coaching opportunity, if one were to come along.
Is it then really beyond the realm of imagination to think that he would be turned off by a school that treats him like the backup plan to their backup plan's backup plan? That he might have seen that happening and decided that he didn't want to be at a place where he was viewed as good enough ... but only if 10 other people said 'No' first?
Maybe he would have waited through that.
Or maybe he would have said, 'Screw these people, I don't want to be jerked around' and then he would have taken a solid six-figure salary as an assistant at IU or UK and bided his time for a head coaching job at a school that actually wanted him.
I can't say how he would have reacted. And, despite your all-knowingness, neither can you.
Chicos - Lenny and I would still like a reply to your statement:
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on May 18, 2010, 10:16:32 AM
I agree. I'm happy with Buzz's results, though some from the JUCO route and taking kids that never step foot on campus due to grades is troubling to me. But he has continued to carry the ball.....but he could have been had a week or two later. MU is classic at screwing up searches. It's not hard, companies successfully do them all the time.
I'd asked for a rebuttal with the below post:
You get upset when I say D-Wade was the key factor in the Final Four run (even though I've provided ample evidence to support that claim) - by saying that as a result of making that point, I'm disrespecting what contribution Diener, Novak, RJack and Merritt made....YET..you have the audacity to say JUCOs are "troubling" to you?? Is that basically not disrespecting Jimmy Butler, DJO, Fulce, Dwight Buycks - who all have been model citizens, good performers on court, and good ambassadors of the program??
Quote from: Lennys Tap on May 18, 2010, 11:07:38 AM
Who are "the kids that never set foot on campus due to grades" that are troubling to you?
Do you not have a rebuttal? Is this because again you are just posting garbage that is not based in fact, but rather in your desperation to defend Tom Crean and try to tear down Buzz Williams, you resort to making things up? Your silence is damning Chicos.