Matt Carlino, a shooting guard out of Bloomington ranked number 61 in the espn 100 class for 2011 decommitted from Indiana and is reopening his recruitment. I am not starting this thread to bash Crean, but what is going on over there? Crean can't get anyone to commit, and IU looks like it is no better off than when the whole Sampson thing started. Crean can't have much time left there if this keeps up.
They have to be at least somewhat better off, as when Sampson left there was only one direction to go.
On same day, they lost to Georgetown in the recruitment of Moses Abraham, a 6ft 9in center, right after Abraham visited the IU campus.
Quote from: MU_B2002 on March 26, 2010, 10:30:46 AM
They have to be at least somewhat better off, as when Sampson left there was only one direction to go.
At least they were winning with Sampson, granted the wins were vacated. On a side note, vacated wins are the dumbest concept in sports. Lets all pretend Umass didn't make the final four, and memphis didn't get to the national championship game. news flash ncaa, they happened!
If Memphis fouls before the 3, and wins like I bet they would in October, would vegas be calling me to ask for their money back?
Wasn't he the guy that moved from Arizona to Indiana after he verballed to IU?
Hmmm...
This certainly doesn't sound too good.
It's going to get more and more interesting at IU.
They will have to show some significant progress over the next 2 seasons.
If not, that experiment will be determined a failure and IU will move on.
I think Creek will be a very good player, but he was hurt for most of the year which made things tough. However, after that I'm not real impressed with their team and don't think he has gotten anyone of the talent level he couldn't get at MU. I know some of those kids were being recruited to MU and might not have committed to Crean if he stayed here, but Buzz has shown that you can get guys of at least that talent here.
He needs to make a big splash in the loaded 2011 and 2012 classes in Indiana. They say they will give him a lot of time, but if he doesn't land some of the big guns those years his seat will get very warm.
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on March 26, 2010, 10:35:13 AM
Wasn't he the guy that moved from Arizona to Indiana after he verballed to IU?
Yes
Quote from: MU_B2002 on March 26, 2010, 10:34:30 AM
If Memphis fouls before the 3, and wins like I bet they would in October, would vegas be calling me to ask for their money back?
Is anyone else still puzzled by this question? If you bet on any of those games leading up to the national championship game against against memphis, you think you could be entitled to your money back at least?
QuoteOn same day, they lost to Georgetown in the recruitment of Moses Abraham, a 6ft 9in center, right after Abraham visited the IU campus.
Since we obviously need bigs, were we trying to get him as well?
"Tom Crean is like the guy who all the hot girls want to be friends with, but never a boyfriend"
Quote from: KipsBayEagle on March 26, 2010, 10:51:31 AM
Is anyone else still puzzled by this question? If you bet on any of those games leading up to the national championship game against against memphis, you think you could be entitled to your money back at least?
Puzzled by my question, or the thought in general?
Quote from: MU_B2002 on March 26, 2010, 11:22:30 AM
Puzzled by my question, or the thought in general?
Puzzled like, does someone have a legal case to recliam money if they bet on a game where the victory was vacated.
Funny thing is Crean was they same way here as he is now at Bloomington. Bad coach, terrible , recruiter, high turnover. When he was here people liked him becuase he was one of us. Now that he is in Bloomington people see him more objectively. The guy is a no talent. Reminds me of Robert Johnson making a deal with the devil, Crean sold his soul and the devil gave him Dwyane Wade.
Quote from: Canadian Dimes on March 26, 2010, 11:41:53 AM
Funny thing is Crean was they same way here as he is now at Bloomington. Bad coach, terrible , recruiter, high turnover. When he was here people liked him becuase he was one of us. Now that he is in Bloomington people see him more objectively. The guy is a no talent. Reminds me of Robert Johnson making a deal with the devil, Crean sold his soul and the devil gave him Dwyane Wade.
This post is so incredibly incorrect its almost funny.
I just do not think Indiana has that big of a pull anymore and Crean can not convince the kids it does.
We were briefly mentioned with Moses Abraham a couple of months ago.
He visited Tennessee along with IU and GU.
In the end, he was Georgetowns to lose from the start.
Quote from: Canadian Dimes on March 26, 2010, 11:41:53 AM
Funny thing is Crean was they same way here as he is now at Bloomington. Bad coach, terrible , recruiter, high turnover. When he was here people liked him becuase he was one of us. Now that he is in Bloomington people see him more objectively. The guy is a no talent. Reminds me of Robert Johnson making a deal with the devil, Crean sold his soul and the devil gave him Dwyane Wade.
This may be the most ignorant thing I have ever read on MU Scoop.
Quote from: Canadian Dimes on March 26, 2010, 11:41:53 AM
Funny thing is Crean was they same way here as he is now at Bloomington. Bad coach, terrible , recruiter, high turnover. When he was here people liked him becuase he was one of us. Now that he is in Bloomington people see him more objectively. The guy is a no talent. Reminds me of Robert Johnson making a deal with the devil, Crean sold his soul and the devil gave him Dwyane Wade.
Robert Jackson, Novak, Diener, DJ, 'Rel, Matthews, Lazar.......
Quote from: Canadian Dimes on March 26, 2010, 11:41:53 AM
Funny thing is Crean was they same way here as he is now at Bloomington. Bad coach, terrible , recruiter, high turnover. When he was here people liked him becuase he was one of us. Now that he is in Bloomington people see him more objectively. The guy is a no talent. Reminds me of Robert Johnson making a deal with the devil, Crean sold his soul and the devil gave him Dwyane Wade.
So good to see Mr. Hayward back....again. ::)
Quote from: KipsBayEagle on March 26, 2010, 10:32:52 AM
At least they were winning with Sampson, granted the wins were vacated. On a side note, vacated wins are the dumbest concept in sports. Lets all pretend Umass didn't make the final four, and memphis didn't get to the national championship game. news flash ncaa, they happened!
Nonsense. We've always been at war with Eurasia.
It's getting to the point I'm almost feeling sorry for Crean. You have to wonder if he wakes up daily and wonders why he left what he built at Marquette - and the only answer he can come to is: Well, I couldn't reel in the big fish at MU (Iman Schumpert), so I guess even with the Indiana Brand to sell, I still have trouble closing the deal. Also wonder if he is jealous of the success Buzz has had both this season in basketball results, and his 2010 recruiting class?
That said he deserves credit for bringing us Buzz, and helping to get us out of the abyss Mike Deane was leading us into.
Quote from: pillardean on March 26, 2010, 12:00:59 PM
I just do not think Indiana has that big of a pull anymore and Crean can not convince the kids it does.
+1
IU has a great basketball tradition...but many of the current recruits don't know about it. They're becoming like ND in football: they have yet to come to terms with the fact that 5-star recruits won't come to the school simply because of their name. They simply aren't as relevant as they used to be or as they believe themselves to be.
In fact, when a top recruit is asked for the main reason why he didn't chose IU, he might shrug and respond, "It's Indiana." ;)
I think many of us overestimated what weight the name of a program, that has been largely unsuccessful since bob knight, would carry with 16 year olds. Crean and myself included. He may have only one more year to show significant improvement before he gets canned.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on March 26, 2010, 01:19:14 PM
+1
In fact, when a top recruit is asked for the main reason why he didn't chose IU, he might shrug and respond, "It's Indiana." ;)
Haha! Awesome. But I believe you only included half of the quote..."It's Indiana; it's Indiana..." is what they must be saying.
Why do people care enough about this to start a thread when we have a myriad of issues to discuss in our own house?
Quote from: The Golden Avalanche on March 26, 2010, 01:54:26 PM
Why do people care enough about this to start a thread when we have a myriad of issues to discuss in our own house?
Than you should start a thread concerning one of those myriad of issues.
Quote from: Ners on March 26, 2010, 01:15:52 PM
It's getting to the point I'm almost feeling sorry for Crean.
Nah.......
Quote from: The Golden Avalanche on March 26, 2010, 01:54:26 PM
Why do people care enough about this to start a thread when we have a myriad of issues to discuss in our own house?
Can you elaborate on what issues we have in our own house? The usage of myriad makes me think we have a lot of issues? The only one I'm aware of is that we may sign another kid in the spring signing period, and this could mean the transfer or ineligibility of one of our incoming recruits?
Quote from: Ners on March 26, 2010, 02:00:35 PM
Can you elaborate on what issues we have in our own house? The usage of myriad makes me think we have a lot of issues? The only one I'm aware of is that we may sign another kid in the spring signing period, and this could mean the transfer or ineligibility of one of our incoming recruits?
There hasn't been a new "We need a big man" thread all day. Plenty of opportunity there.
Quote from: TJ on March 26, 2010, 02:07:16 PM
There hasn't been a new "We need a big man" thread all day. Plenty of opportunity there.
Nice! Good point. What are we going to do? 6'11" Otule will be coming back, and rumor is that we will be signing a big in the spring signing period...
Quote from: texaswarrior74 on March 26, 2010, 11:13:18 AM
Since we obviously need bigs, were we trying to get him as well?
I am not sure it is even possible that we will ever get a quality big.
Quote from: willie warrior on March 26, 2010, 02:14:04 PM
I am not sure it is even possible that we will ever get a quality big.
I'd take you up on a friendly wager that says MU signs a Top 100 big this spring or for the 2011 class (if not 2). And big meaning 6'8, 220lbs +
Quote from: The Sultan of South Wayne on March 26, 2010, 10:35:13 AM
Wasn't he the guy that moved from Arizona to Indiana after he verballed to IU?
He's actually on high school number 3 right now.
Quote from: nyg on March 26, 2010, 10:31:37 AM
On same day, they lost to Georgetown in the recruitment of Moses Abraham, a 6ft 9in center, right after Abraham visited the IU campus.
A bit more than that.....Uncle Moses made the call. The kid is basically staying home
http://www.zagsblog.com/2010/03/25/moses-abraham-to-georgetown/
Quote from: Ners on March 26, 2010, 02:40:26 PM
I'd take you up on a friendly wager that says MU signs a Top 100 big this spring or for the 2011 class (if not 2). And big meaning 6'8, 220lbs +
ooo, I'll take that action.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 26, 2010, 02:47:51 PM
A bit more than that.....Uncle Moses made the call. The kid is basically staying home
http://www.zagsblog.com/2010/03/25/moses-abraham-to-georgetown/
Now that Georgetown signed a bigman, Seton Hall has no coach, and Rutgers is in dismay, that means Maurice Walker should be down to us and Pitt. Interesting if Dixon rumors continue.
Quote from: MerrittsMustache on March 26, 2010, 01:19:14 PM
+1
IU has a great basketball tradition...but many of the current recruits don't know about it. They're becoming like ND in football: they have yet to come to terms with the fact that 5-star recruits won't come to the school simply because of their name. They simply aren't as relevant as they used to be or as they believe themselves to be.
In fact, when a top recruit is asked for the main reason why he didn't chose IU, he might shrug and respond, "It's Indiana." ;)
So what you are saying is there is only one person stupid enough to commit to Indiana, because it's Indiana.
Funny, he's like the guy that is told there is something going on and then is the only one to show up.
Thanks Tom, your inability to run a program at the highest of levels was holding us back. Peter Principle at it's finest, IU is a good place for him, he will ultimately settle at a mid or low major where being the guy that signed DWAde with be enough to get by.
Quote from: pillardean on March 26, 2010, 12:00:59 PM
I just do not think Indiana has that big of a pull anymore and Crean can not convince the kids it does.
How dare you say that. It's Indiana! It's Indiana!
Quote from: nyg on March 26, 2010, 03:04:48 PM
Now that Georgetown signed a bigman, Seton Hall has no coach, and Rutgers is in dismay, that means Maurice Walker should be down to us and Pitt. Interesting if Dixon rumors continue.
Walker now lists Pitt and Minnesota as leaders. Pitt is currently oversigned by 1, but as explained in the article, one has been made available for Walker. They expect turnover...
http://www.zagsblog.com/2010/03/25/maurice-walker-weighing-options/
Quote from: EdmontonBruiser on March 26, 2010, 04:02:17 PM
How dare you say that. It's Indiana! It's Indiana!
The "Canadian" invasion continues....from a town near Plymouth, Indiana no doubt.
I'm wondering how the name "Marquette" registered with 16 and 17 year olds back in 1999, 2000, 2001.....
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 26, 2010, 02:47:51 PM
A bit more than that.....Uncle Moses made the call. The kid is basically staying home
No. The young man visited the II,II campus, spent time with the team, and had some quality one-on-one time with Coach Tom Crean. The town of Bloomington speaks for itself, his prospective teammates had difficulty answering young Moses' questions about the sting of a 20 loss season. The clincher, though, was when he sat down with CTC and got a fisrt hand look at the man. The smarmy approach, the used car sales oiliness, the karate uniform, the disingenuity, and the thrown potted plant turned young Moses off to joining II,II.
Quote from: GOMU1104 on March 26, 2010, 04:07:11 PM
Walker now lists Pitt and Minnesota as leaders. Pitt is currently oversigned by 1, but as explained in the article, one has been made available for Walker. They expect turnover...
http://www.zagsblog.com/2010/03/25/maurice-walker-weighing-options/
That article lists Walker at 300 lbs.
Everything I've seen has him in the 260-270 range.... did he really gain 30 lbs.? Doesn't look it from the picture.
Regardless, he seems to be a long shot but it would be so sweet if he chose MU.
Quote from: pillardean on March 26, 2010, 12:00:59 PM
I just do not think Indiana has that big of a pull anymore and Crean can not convince the kids it does.
Yes, but is
Crean the reason Indiana doesn't have that big a pull anymore?
Davis got good recruits.
Sampson got good recruits. (He should, he cheats).
Quote from: KipsBayEagle on March 26, 2010, 01:55:16 PM
Than you should start a thread concerning one of those myriad of issues.
Right on! +1
Quote from: nyg on March 26, 2010, 03:04:48 PM
Now that Georgetown signed a bigman, Seton Hall has no coach, and Rutgers is in dismay, that means Maurice Walker should be down to us and Pitt. Interesting if Dixon rumors continue.
My thinking exactly. If only Walker's dad can give what's best for his son a higher priority than how long a flight he'll have to make to see him play.
Quote from: RawdogDX on March 26, 2010, 01:21:01 PM
I think many of us overestimated what weight the name of a program, that has been largely unsuccessful since bob knight, would carry with 16 year olds. Crean and myself included. He may have only one more year to show significant improvement before he gets canned.
Now hold on a minute. Aren't we talking about the program that Dwayne Wade would have
crawled over hot coals to go to?
Many rumors that the Moses thing isn't quite over yet, either, per the Bloomington Herald. One of those deals where the kid wants to go to IU but the uncle wants him at G'Town. Shall see what happens.
Quote from: LittleMurs on March 26, 2010, 05:09:10 PM
My thinking exactly. If only Walker's dad can give what's best for his son a higher priority than how long a flight he'll have to make to see him play.
That is quite an assumption. Have you talked to the Walker family? Do you know the priorities of his father? Do you know what they are thinking? Is it really a problem to want to go to a school close to home? If his priorities are out of line, as you assume...why is Minnesota one of the finalists?
Get a clue.
Quote from: RawdogDX on March 26, 2010, 01:21:01 PM
I think many of us overestimated what weight the name of a program, that has been largely unsuccessful since bob knight, would carry with 16 year olds. Crean and myself included. He may have only one more year to show significant improvement before he gets canned.
This is only year two, with the third year coming up. He, and any other coach in his position, deserves at least 4 years so a whole class of "their guys" can work through the program.
Good luck to him. It looks like he needs it.
Quote from: GOMU1104 on March 26, 2010, 05:30:25 PM
That is quite an assumption. Have you talked to the Walker family? Do you know the priorities of his father? Do you know what they are thinking? Is it really a problem to want to go to a school close to home? If his priorities are out of line, as you assume...why is Minnesota one of the finalists?
Get a clue.
The kids father said they were looking at schools close to home. Jeez loosen up the spinchter a little its friday
Quote from: LittleMurs on March 26, 2010, 05:13:27 PM
Now hold on a minute. Aren't we talking about the program that Dwayne Wade would have crawled over hot coals to go to?
While this comment was made sarcastically the sad fact is that Tanned Tommy Crean actually said this in public. Can there be anything more revolting than this self-promoting jackass? This comment, perhaps more than any other, reeks of his lack of class, dignity, and honor. That man is beneath our contempt. I await his demise as coach of It's Indiana, It's Indiana!
Quote from: hairyworthen on March 26, 2010, 06:53:42 PM
The kids father said they were looking at schools close to home. Jeez loosen up the spinchter a little its friday
Massive douchey-ness is a trait for some.
Quote from: GOMU1104 on March 26, 2010, 05:30:25 PM
That is quite an assumption. Have you talked to the Walker family? Do you know the priorities of his father? Do you know what they are thinking? Is it really a problem to want to go to a school close to home? If his priorities are out of line, as you assume...why is Minnesota one of the finalists?
Get a clue.
OMG, I've been flamed!
"Do you know the priorities of his father? Do you know what they are thinking?"Yes and Yes Thanks to the efforts of mr.MUskie (blame him, blame him) who on March 23, 2010 01:51:52 PM on this very board in a thread entitled aptly enough "Recruiting Question" posted the following:
Zagoria reports:
Craig Walker [Maurice's father] said the current list for his son includes Seton Hall, Georgetown, Pittsburgh, Marquette and St. John's. He added that South Florida, Oregon State and Memphis have also expressed interest.
"My thoughts are that Maurice will probably stay in the East somewhere," Craig said.
"As parents, we'd rather he play in the East side of the country in the Big East. We know we can hop on a plane and be there in an hour." "If his priorities are out of line, as you assume...why is Minnesota one of the finalists?"I do not have any information in regard to this apparent change in outlook by the family, thus I will refrain from making any kind of answer based solely on speculation.
Quote from: Avenue Commons on March 26, 2010, 06:30:10 PM
This is only year two, with the third year coming up. He, and any other coach in his position, deserves at least 4 years so a whole class of "their guys" can work through the program.
Good luck to him. It looks like he needs it.
I guess the point is "his guys" are not an especially talented group. Certainly not what "It's Indiana" expected. Should we all hold our breath that Crean can get this group, or any group, to outperform expectations?
IU fan here...
And I can tell you all that the "luster" is wearing off with the "energizer bunny"...
Davis recruited well at IU, he just did not recruit the state well and it cost him his job.
Kelvin was a fantastic recruiter.... look at the NCAA tourney right now.. X's Calloway and Holloway, IU defectors Ebanks was a IU sign, Armon Bassett for IU another IU transfer... That would be one hell of a team right now... ?-(
Crean has been a huge disappointment in my mind, he is not a good game coach and regularly gets badly out coached in games. His team totally quit on him the last 12 games of the season last year. He is begging 3 star recruits to commit to IU and they are blowing him off. He had Kyrie Irving all but locked up and lost him. Ughhhhhhhh.. :(
The state of Indiana is LOADED in the 2011 and 12 classes and he has got to hit it big in both of those classes or I think he will not be around 4 years from now.
But.. all that said he does appear to have a solid base in place right now, and all we are missing is a couple "difference makers" the question is can Crean pull them in?????
Losing Moses hurt, but actually IU is bottlenecked at SG and Carlino is just that... he is not a PG (which IU needs), I have seen him play at South several times and he does not even play the point for his HS team... Dee Davis does (an X recruit, that IU did not even look at ?-(}
Oh well time will tell.... IU has been irrelevant for going on 20 years now a few more can't hurt.... :-\
;)
Crean has a solid base in place....
Seriously that base is good for maybe an Ncaa tournament the year after next. Additonally, nothing is ever "solid" with Crean. He has already fired an assistant coach mid season, and if history is any guide expcet 2-3 or more players to leave. And they are not always the ones you want to leave
But, I was led to believe IU is a Top 5 program, no?
Quote from: Canadian Dimes on March 27, 2010, 09:32:08 AM
Crean has a solid base in place....
Seriously that base is good for maybe an Ncaa tournament the year after next. Additonally, nothing is ever "solid" with Crean. He has already fired an assistant coach mid season, and if history is any guide expcet 2-3 or more players to leave. And they are not always the ones you want to leave
No, the assistant coach was fired at the end of the regular season, the 2nd to last game of the year....not exactly "mid season." Query, do you know why the assistant coach was fired?
And yes, a few players will likely leave.
Better get that spelling up to snuff Hayward, your slip is showing.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on March 27, 2010, 09:34:33 AM
But, I was led to believe IU is a Top 5 program, no?
All time, without a doubt...well for most folks. A few have them at #6
http://assets.espn.go.com/photo/2009/1004/cbe1.pdf
http://www.insidethehall.com/2009/10/05/espn-all-time-rankings-indiana-no-5/
http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/28116552/ns/sports-college_basketball/
http://www.prepticket.com/album/823292:Album:92650/market/national/id/823292:Photo:92632
The class of 2011 is everything to Crean...plenty of really good in-state talent. If those guys end up signing with the likes of Kentucky, Purdue, Ohio State, etc., he's pretty much screwed (unless of course he can find even better players somewhere else). Cleaning up/building the program and landing those top flight players close to home is what he was brought in to do, because it is just what he did at MU.
I4 fans are not going to sit by quietly while Calipari, Matta, Painter etc. play deep into March with kids that call Indiana home, while IU's 3 star roster goes to the NIT (maybe). Its not over yet by any means, but to say the next couple month time period is critical to Crean is putting it mildly. So far its obviously off to a pretty rough start.
The other thing he could do is strike gold with a player as he did with Wade. The what if game is admittedly rather pointless, but had he not found Wade, how long would he actually have been at MU? Jackson, Novak, Diener, etc., all good players to be sure, but a 68-52 record in the two years before and after Wade is obviously not very impressive. Without finding the greatness that was Dwyane Wade, I find it hard to believe he would have survived more than 4 years or so. MU fans were growing impatient prior to the Final Four, and that bought him an awful lot of slack afterward, but IU fans are not MU fans. They are way worse.
The reality is, this is a guy who in 7 seasons without #3 won a grand total of one NCAA tournament game and zero conference titles.
That guy could be in the class of 2011, but he has to land him.
when is the last time anyone recalls an assistant coach gets fired during the season?
Chicos can rationalize it all he wants but the question stands when was the last time you saw it?
On it's own maybe no big deal? But with Crean's history of assistants bailing and player turnover , my guess is it is just more of the same. Gotta blame someone why not blame everything on the asistnat and fire him.
Bottom line if you are a top 100 player and have Purdue, kentucky, Louisville and others...how many are going to buy into Cream's dream and come play for a team that had won 16? games combined in 2 years. Throw in all the "rumors" about how the players dont like him, the history of transfers, and the fact that he is a complete tool and I would not bet on him signing a good class. heck 1 4 star kid from Indiana just decommitted!
It's tough for Crean with Butler and Purdue doing so well.
If I were an Indiana fan, the thing that would conern me is that the only time Crean really had success recruiting, is when he had playing time to sell. He has had playing time to sell, and lot's of it, but still can't reel in recruits of the caliber that he needs to get. Other than Creek, no one impresses me at all on Indiana (now, I have only watched a few games, so maybe I'm way off). And if Creek's injury is like Fulce's split knee - it could be more than a year before he is at 100% - and he maybe better off redshirting (or if he wants to transfer, this would be the time to do it so he can redshirt this coming year). I have no idea of which players are rumored to be leaving Indiana - but history suggests some will leave. I think Crean has found a couple of assistant coaches that are willing to work for him, so that is a positive he has going, as maybe he won't loose an assistant this off season.
I was watching one of the last games of the season, and Crean seemed so much more animated then normal - like he was trying to have more energy then the players to show them/will them to play harder. The clapping and pacing were beyond anthing I had ever seen him do at Marquette. He seemed desperate and at a loss as to what to do. I think this job is taking a toll on him. Maybe it was a show for the fans and administration, to look the part of the coach who is on top of it and being supportive and positive towards his player. I really thought he looked a little nuts. If he doesn't get it turned around some in the next year, Crean may need to get out if he isn't pushed out.
Quote from: Canadian Dimes on March 27, 2010, 11:52:49 AM
when is the last time anyone recalls an assistant coach gets fired during the season?
Chicos can rationalize it all he wants but the question stands when was the last time you saw it?
On it's own maybe no big deal? But with Crean's history of assistants bailing and player turnover , my guess is it is just more of the same. Gotta blame someone why not blame everything on the asistnat and fire him.
Bottom line if you are a top 100 player and have Purdue, kentucky, Louisville and others...how many are going to buy into Cream's dream and come play for a team that had won 16? games combined in 2 years. Throw in all the "rumors" about how the players dont like him, the history of transfers, and the fact that he is a complete tool and I would not bet on him signing a good class. heck 1 4 star kid from Indiana just decommitted!
Didn't the assistant get fired the second last game of the season?
Quote from: GOO on March 27, 2010, 02:51:57 PM
If he doesn't get it turned around some in the next year, Crean may need to get out if he isn't pushed out.
I doubt he's walking away from 8 years worth of money, and I doubt Indiana's interested in paying him all of it at once.
Ya. I doubt Crean would simply walk without some $. But they could agree on a buyout at less than what is remaining on his contract. If things don't work out, it would be very hard to show up for work and perform as required by the contract, when all your doing is collecting a paycheck and everyone wants you gone.
Quote from: Canadian Dimes on March 27, 2010, 11:52:49 AM
when is the last time anyone recalls an assistant coach gets fired during the season?
Chicos can rationalize it all he wants but the question stands when was the last time you saw it?
On it's own maybe no big deal? But with Crean's history of assistants bailing and player turnover , my guess is it is just more of the same. Gotta blame someone why not blame everything on the asistnat and fire him.
Bottom line if you are a top 100 player and have Purdue, kentucky, Louisville and others...how many are going to buy into Cream's dream and come play for a team that had won 16? games combined in 2 years. Throw in all the "rumors" about how the players dont like him, the history of transfers, and the fact that he is a complete tool and I would not bet on him signing a good class. heck 1 4 star kid from Indiana just decommitted!
wow, reading all the jilted ex girlfriends rants makes me wonder how Crean lasted 9 years at MU and got himself 2mm plus a year contract.
Quote from: GOO on March 27, 2010, 03:46:55 PM
Ya. I doubt Crean would simply walk without some $. But they could agree on a buyout at less than what is remaining on his contract. If things don't work out, it would be very hard to show up for work and perform as required by the contract, when all your doing is collecting a paycheck and everyone wants you gone.
It's kind of hard to believe that anyone else would want the job if Crean's gone before half his 10 year contract is up, either because he bails, or because the university bails on their commitment to let him rebuild the program.
Ban all Crean threads. Yesterday's news.
Quote from: 4everwarriors on March 27, 2010, 09:34:33 AM
But, I was led to believe IU is a Top 5 program, no?
IU has 5 NC banners that are not going anywhere..... ;)
We will be back, but it probably wont happen under TC... :(
Quote from: Brewtown Andy on March 27, 2010, 04:31:02 PM
It's kind of hard to believe that anyone else would want the job if Crean's gone before half his 10 year contract is up, either because he bails, or because the university bails on their commitment to let him rebuild the program.
Crean will get more than a fair chance to prove himself... I thinking at least 5 years... If he can't get going by then,... then he should be let go... There is simply to much talent in state not to...
But if he flops in the 11 and 12 classes he is in big trouble...
Quote from: ATWizJr on March 27, 2010, 03:11:48 PM
Didn't the assistant get fired the second last game of the season?
yes, the rumor is that he was telling recruits untruths (he is the reason Irving backed out on us, supposedly ?-()
Ro was also rumored to be in the ear of some of the players causing static, which I can believe because something went bad wrong mid season in the locker room.....
All rumors, but the bottom line is Crean is in charge... he is the one that should be held accountable.
Quote from: NavinRJohnson on March 27, 2010, 09:59:35 AM
The other thing he could do is strike gold with a player as he did with Wade. The what if game is admittedly rather pointless, but had he not found Wade, how long would he actually have been at MU?
Had he not found Wade, would we be in C-USA or the BE right now?
Quote from: CrimsonNCrean on March 28, 2010, 03:44:52 AM
yes, the rumor is that he was telling recruits untruths (he is the reason Irving backed out on us, supposedly ?-()
Ro was also rumored to be in the ear of some of the players causing static, which I can believe because something went bad wrong mid season in the locker room.....
All rumors, but the bottom line is Crean is in charge... he is the one that should be held accountable.
You do realize how stupid you sound dont you? Crean's MO is there is a conspiracy against him on every thing that is not successful. Negative recruiting, fathers, assistants. Listen son, kids commit to coaches not some 4th assistant. Irving backed out on Crean for the same reason he has difficulties recruitng. Because he is like a robot, pull the string and get some recorded coach speak, he can relate to know one, he has zero personality and all those factors weigh heavily against you sitting in someones living room. You can only drop the name Dwyane Wade so many times.
QuoteBut if he flops in the 11 and 12 classes he is in big trouble...
Two of the biggest instate recruits in 2011 are Cody Zeller and Marshall Plumlee and from what I can gather from reading other boards, neither one is seriously considering IU.
If that kind of in state recruiting continues he won't see the 2012 season.
Quote from: Canadian Dimes on March 28, 2010, 09:48:32 AM
You do realize how stupid you sound dont you? Crean's MO is there is a conspiracy against him on every thing that is not successful. Negative recruiting, fathers, assistants. Listen son, kids commit to coaches not some 4th assistant. Irving backed out on Crean for the same reason he has difficulties recruitng. Because he is like a robot, pull the string and get some recorded coach speak, he can relate to know one, he has zero personality and all those factors weigh heavily against you sitting in someones living room. You can only drop the name Dwyane Wade so many times.
Listen son.......... where in my post did you not see the words "these are rumors?" I was simply conveying what is speculation around the program.......
It is obvious you dislike the man, and I am on my to that opinion also... like I said...
Crean is the one who is in charge and should be held accountable....reading comprehension can be your friend... :)
Quote from: texaswarrior74 on March 28, 2010, 11:48:55 AM
Two of the biggest instate recruits in 2011 are Cody Zeller and Marshall Plumlee and from what I can gather from reading other boards, neither one is seriously considering IU.
If that kind of in state recruiting continues he won't see the 2012 season.
this is incorrect.... Plumlee plays H.S. ball in North Carolina and he will go to Duke
Zeller is very high on IU, but he is also very high on Butler.... :-\
I hope Crean can land him but I have a bad feeling Cody will be a Bulldog... It will be IU or Butler
Quote from: Canadian Dimes on March 28, 2010, 09:48:32 AMListen son, kids commit to coaches not some 4th assistant.
*coughaaronbowencough*
Quote from: texaswarrior74 on March 28, 2010, 11:48:55 AM
Two of the biggest instate recruits in 2011 are Cody Zeller and Marshall Plumlee and from what I can gather from reading other boards, neither one is seriously considering IU.
If that kind of in state recruiting continues he won't see the 2012 season.
Well I'm not sure what you're reading because Zeller is certainly considering IU. Doesn't mean he'll end up there, but he is seriously considering IU. Plumlee is all over the board, his two brothers went to the Final Four today for Duke. He may follow their footsteps, he may go to Wisconsin, or any number of other locations.
Quote from: ATWizJr on March 27, 2010, 03:11:48 PM
Didn't the assistant get fired the second last game of the season?
Don't confuse Mr. Hayward \ Blackswan \ Canadiandimes \ Ahoyaballscout \ douchebagtothestars with any facts, it might make him explode.
There's a reason he was fired and a damn good one at that. Considering our beloved poster lives in Indiana, he sure is far from any real information. Guy must love under a rock or in the basement with grandma
Quote from: CrimsonNCrean on March 28, 2010, 03:44:52 AM
All rumors, but the bottom line is Crean is in charge... he is the one that should be held accountable.
While we're talking rumors, has this one been shot down?
http://twitter.com/WilliamGunter/status/11168157195
QuoteCrazy rumor of the day now circulating: Indiana trustees meeting tonight to come up with buyout for Tom Crean and contract for Brad Stevens 4:02 PM Mar 27th via mobile web
Was posted a couple days ago, and I don't know William Gunter, but I gather that he is a South Carolina basketball insider of sorts.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on March 29, 2010, 04:58:38 PM
While we're talking rumors, has this one been shot down?
http://twitter.com/WilliamGunter/status/11168157195
Was posted a couple days ago, and I don't know William Gunter, but I gather that he is a South Carolina basketball insider of sorts.
More rumors, where there is smoke there is fire.
Oregon to offer Izzo more money than Calipari currently makes. Read that Izzo make $3 mill a year, so can't imagine what the offer will be. If Michigan State actually wins this year, does Izzo really have to prove anything else at Michigan State. Now that would be a big time move by Oregon and leaves the Michigan State job open. But not for a former assistant coach.......
Quote from: nyg on March 29, 2010, 05:35:11 PM
More rumors, where there is smoke there is fire.
Oregon to offer Izzo more money than Calipari currently makes. Read that Izzo make $3 mill a year, so can't imagine what the offer will be. If Michigan State actually wins this year, does Izzo really have to prove anything else at Michigan State. Now that would be a big time move by Oregon and leaves the Michigan State job open. But not for a former assistant coach.......
Brian Gregory was rumored to be the guy for Iowa, but that never happened. Maybe he is the former MSU assistant who could benefit form Izzo leaving.
I bet Izzo just gets a raise from MSU. I mean, he has 6 Final Fours and Calipari has none. Maybe the proven record should get Izzo something.
Quote from: nyg on March 29, 2010, 05:35:11 PM
More rumors, where there is smoke there is fire.
Oregon to offer Izzo more money than Calipari currently makes. Read that Izzo make $3 mill a year, so can't imagine what the offer will be. If Michigan State actually wins this year, does Izzo really have to prove anything else at Michigan State. Now that would be a big time move by Oregon and leaves the Michigan State job open. But not for a former assistant coach.......
It's MSU! It's MSU! Indiana would probably help him pack and move!
Quote from: Brewtown Andy on March 28, 2010, 02:30:19 PM
*coughaaronbowencough*
way off base Aaron had a relationship with dale layer that was developed when dale layer was a HEAD Coach, that relationship continued when he went to MArquette as the lead assistant. Not some 4th assistnt. Irving did not become interested in IU becuase of mcleod and did not run like a scared dog becuase of him either. the only that would have you beleive that are Crean apologists
If Izzo was driven my $, he would have taken the Atlanta Hawks and the $30 mil they are offered him.
Quote from: reinko on March 29, 2010, 07:30:39 PM
If Izzo was driven my $, he would have taken the Atlanta Hawks and the $30 mil they are offered him.
Exactly. He's also a Michigan native, hard to see him leaving.
Quote from: rocky_warrior on March 29, 2010, 04:58:38 PM
While we're talking rumors, has this one been shot down?
http://twitter.com/WilliamGunter/status/11168157195
Was posted a couple days ago, and I don't know William Gunter, but I gather that he is a South Carolina basketball insider of sorts.
Last week President McRobbie was out this way for a gathering of Indiana graduates. Unless he's a bald face liar or an incredible poker player, I'd say this rumor has no chance of happening....but who knows.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 29, 2010, 07:49:55 PM
Exactly. He's also a Michigan native, hard to see him leaving.
There are only two reasons Izzo leaves MSU. One is for a pro gig and the other is to retire.
So last Week the President McRobbie was talking about this rumor or just professing his love for Crean?
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 29, 2010, 07:55:31 PM
Last week President McRobbie was out this way for a gathering of Indiana graduates. Unless he's a bald face liar or an incredible poker player, I'd say this rumor has no chance of happening....but who knows.
Quote from: Fullodds on March 29, 2010, 08:36:44 PM
So last Week the President McRobbie was talking about this rumor or just professing his love for Crean?
He was talking about the program, how decimated it was and how they feel they have the right man for the job who will be there for a long time....from what I understand. I could not attend but one of the guys that I work with is an IU alum and paraphrased those comments.
Quote from: Canadian Dimes on March 28, 2010, 09:48:32 AM
You do realize how stupid you sound dont you? Crean's MO is there is a conspiracy against him on every thing that is not successful. Negative recruiting, fathers, assistants. Listen son, kids commit to coaches not some 4th assistant. Irving backed out on Crean for the same reason he has difficulties recruitng. Because he is like a robot, pull the string and get some recorded coach speak, he can relate to know one, he has zero personality and all those factors weigh heavily against you sitting in someones living room. You can only drop the name Dwyane Wade so many times.
There's the rude, condescending, beautiful postings of Mr. Hayward that I love so much. It's been so long.
"....he can relate to know [sic] one".
I've missed you, really have. Are you sending junior to IU's basketball camp this year with him in charge?
Can anyone name this coach?
Record
Year 1 8-21
Year 2 9-19
Year 3 4-13
Year 4 15-16
Year 5 21-11
Year 6 24-15
Year 7 28-8
Fixed
why in year 3 did they only play 17 games?
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 30, 2010, 03:00:48 PM
Can anyone name this coach?
Record
Year 1 8-21
Year 2 9-19
Year 3 4-13
Year 4 15-16
Year 5 21-11
Year 6 21-11
Year 7 24-15
Year 8 28-8
Scott drew
Quote from: GOMU1104 on March 30, 2010, 03:15:02 PM
Scott drew
Ding ding
When teams are starting from scratch, which is what IU, Baylor and a few others have had to do, it takes YEARS to get it going. These comparisons to Kentucky or Memphis or whatever, when they have 4 or 5 guys returning plus top 10 recruiting classes are not apples to apples.
5 Years for Scott Drew to have a winning record.
Quote from: kmwtrucks on March 30, 2010, 03:07:16 PM
why in year 3 did they only play 17 games?
They played conference only games that year
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 30, 2010, 03:23:11 PM
Ding ding
When teams are starting from scratch, which is what IU, Baylor and a few others have had to do, it takes YEARS to get it going. These comparisons to Kentucky or Memphis or whatever, when they have 4 or 5 guys returning plus top 10 recruiting classes are not apples to apples.
5 Years for Scott Drew to have a winning record.
What Drew inheritied was worse than what TC did though, and it took him 5 years to get to the NCAAs. Should TC get that much time...I dont know....
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 30, 2010, 03:23:11 PM
Ding ding
When teams are starting from scratch, which is what IU, Baylor and a few others have had to do, it takes YEARS to get it going. These comparisons to Kentucky or Memphis or whatever, when they have 4 or 5 guys returning plus top 10 recruiting classes are not apples to apples.
5 Years for Scott Drew to have a winning record.
I didn't realize Baylor was a Top 5 program. If you think that is a valid comparison, you're kidding yourself. The situation at Baylor was way worse, and building Baylor from the ground up, and building Indiana from the ground up are not even close to the same challenge. I have never heard anyone utter the words, "Its Baylor. Its Baylor." Who are you trying to convince?
Also I would think the level of expectations at Baylor are jsut a tad different than at Indiana.
Edit: Navin beat me to this point.
You guys are missing the point....whether it's Baylor, Indiana, UWGB, or hick state, when you start a team that has NO scholarship players on it...ZERO (Baylor and IU's situation) AND you're on NCAA probation, it takes years to rebuild.
It's funny, some of you guys comparing IU's situation to Kentucky, Memphis, etc as a valid comparison (even though it's absurd) but comparing IU to Baylor is off base???....interesting. Even though the realities of what each team had to start over with is very close.
Oh well, rumor has it on Twitter that Crean is being replaced by Bob Knight later today. It's on the internet.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 30, 2010, 03:32:16 PM
It's funny, some of you guys comparing IU's situation to Kentucky, Memphis, etc as a valid comparison (even though it's absurd) but comparing IU to Baylor is off base???....interesting. Even though the realities of what each team had to start over with is very close.
Very close, huh? Which player at IU was murdered by another? What lies did Samspon tell during the murder investigation? Did Indiana go 20 years without an NCAA appearance? Did Indiana go 50+ years since their last Final Four appearance?
Indiana had more National Championships, than Baylor had NCAA appearances. IU had been to the NCAA tournament three consecutive years before Crean arrived. Baylor hadn't been there for 15 years before Drew arrived.
Baylor limited themselves to 7 scholarships for 2 years. Indiana took away one for one year (and put some limitations on recruit contacts).
If by "very close" you mean not at all comparable, I agree with you.
Very close in terms of returning players, probation, etc.
Completely starting from scratch.....that's what I mean by very close.
When people say, why isn't IU doing what Kentucky did or Memphis, when they had a number of returning players and a recruiting class coming in that was loaded....that is not close, nor should that comparison be made.
Very few teams have had to TOTALLY REBUILD from scratch (zero returning scholarship players...basically NO ONE ON THE TEAM)....in the last decade, the ones that have are IU, Baylor and a few others. That was the comparison.
Let's agree that the coaches situation (penalties, starting rosters) are the same.
Baylor was able to turn around the program and post a winning record by year 5. Given that Indiana has a prestige, history, and recruiting base that Baylor simply can't match, can we expect that they will match or exceed this time frame?
Does compiling a 20-10-ish record in year five make Crean a success or a failure? Should he turn it around faster, considering his resources (vs those available at Baylor)?
Baylor gives a good benchmark, but I'd think IU, as an elite program, isn't looking to match their progress.
Quote from: Utile et Dulce on March 30, 2010, 05:19:23 PM
Let's agree that the coaches situation (penalties, starting rosters) are the same.
Even though they aren't...
Quote from: Utile et Dulce on March 30, 2010, 05:19:23 PM
Baylor was able to turn around the program and post a winning record by year 5. Given that Indiana has a prestige, history, and recruiting base that Baylor simply can't match, can we expect that they will match or exceed this time frame?
Does compiling a 20-10-ish record in year five make Crean a success or a failure? Should he turn it around faster, considering his resources (vs those available at Baylor)?
Baylor gives a good benchmark, but I'd think IU, as an elite program, isn't looking to match their progress.
I don't think there's any question the expectations should be higher at IU. They are after all an elite program. If Crean only matches what Scott Drew did in his first 4 years, I don't see how he survives to see that 5th year. Circumstances will obviously dictate what happens, but if he cannot get I4, one of the Top 5 programs in all of college basketball to the NCAA tournament after 4 seasons, what possible reason could there be to keep him around, unless they are content to lose their status as a top 5 program?
aren't we dancing around the real issue? No one cares about IU's record in year 1 and year 2. We all knew it was going to be bad. The concerns are two:
1. The Big One: He is not getting the recruits everyone expected him to get. With IU having a clean slate, it was expected he would get a couple of top 10 classes. Hasn't happened yet. In fact, outside of Creek, they are not really the players that IU expected. Yes, he has recruiting restrictions, but "it's Indiana" the school is suppose to recruit itself.
2. The Smaller One: His team quit on him last year. The losses are not the problem, the problem is how they lost.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on March 30, 2010, 06:12:17 PM
aren't we dancing around the real issue? No one cares about IU's record in year 1 and year 2. We all knew it was going to be bad. The concerns are two:
1. The Big One: He is not getting the recruits everyone expected him to get. With IU having a clean slate, it was expected he would get a couple of top 10 classes. Hasn't happened yet. In fact, outside of Creek, they are not really the players that IU expected. Yes, he has recruiting restrictions, but "it's Indiana" the school is suppose to recruit itself.
2. The Smaller One: His team quit on him last year. The losses are not the problem, the problem is how they lost.
Also, Big Ten is getting better as a conference. Minnesota and Illinois should be better next year. OSU, WI, and MSU make quality teams every year and Purdue has a great program in the making. Not sure how IU will squeeze in with their players.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 30, 2010, 04:44:30 PM
Very close in terms of returning players, probation, etc.
Completely starting from scratch.....that's what I mean by very close.
When people say, why isn't IU doing what Kentucky did or Memphis, when they had a number of returning players and a recruiting class coming in that was loaded....that is not close, nor should that comparison be made.
Very few teams have had to TOTALLY REBUILD from scratch (zero returning scholarship players...basically NO ONE ON THE TEAM)....in the last decade, the ones that have are IU, Baylor and a few others. That was the comparison.
There were some good players at IU when TC was hired (including Jamal Crawford). There was also an outstanding recruiting class in place including Ebanks (WVU) and Holloway (Xavier). None of them wanted to play for Crean.
And Pastner did not inherit a "loaded" recruiting class. As a rookie Conference USA coach he won his battles against Buzz, TC and others.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on March 30, 2010, 06:12:17 PM
aren't we dancing around the real issue? No one cares about IU's record in year 1 and year 2. We all knew it was going to be bad. The concerns are two:
1. The Big One: He is not getting the recruits everyone expected him to get. With IU having a clean slate, it was expected he would get a couple of top 10 classes. Hasn't happened yet. In fact, outside of Creek, they are not really the players that IU expected. Yes, he has recruiting restrictions, but "it's Indiana" the school is suppose to recruit itself.
2. The Smaller One: His team quit on him last year. The losses are not the problem, the problem is how they lost.
Agree 100%, and that's why the next 2 years are going to be very interesting.
TC certainly hasn't made a "splash", but he's cleaned out the program of any bad eggs (nobody is really sure how "bad" they were), and he has helped re-create some excitement with the program.
In the next 2 years, he's going to have to win, otherwise he'll get run out of town.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 30, 2010, 03:32:16 PM
You guys are missing the point....whether it's Baylor, Indiana, UWGB, or hick state, when you start a team that has NO scholarship players on it...ZERO (Baylor and IU's situation) AND you're on NCAA probation, it takes years to rebuild.
It's funny, some of you guys comparing IU's situation to Kentucky, Memphis, etc as a valid comparison (even though it's absurd) but comparing IU to Baylor is off base???....interesting. Even though the realities of what each team had to start over with is very close.
Seems the power of "It's Indiana, it's Indiana" only goes so far. Apparently it's really not much different than Baylor.
In actuality, though, the situations were not close at all.
You're actually comparing taking over a team with almost no hoops tradition that was ravaged by a major recruiting scandal and - oh yeah - the murder of a player and coverup by those within the program, to what Crean walked into at Indiana. Really?
I think it's safe to say rock bottom at Baylor is a heck of a lot lower than rock bottom at Indiana.
I do find it odd that you've been critical of Buzz over not being able to keep Tyshawn Taylor (and lamented the loss of Scott Christopherson), but give Crean a pass on Devin Ebanks, Terrell Holloway, and Jordan Crawford. Had he been able to keep those guys committed, things would be looking a little better at Indiana these days.
And here I thought I was going to be able to stay out of this...
QuoteThere were some good players at IU when TC was hired (including Jamal Crawford). There was also an outstanding recruiting class in place including Ebanks (WVU) and Holloway (Xavier). None of them wanted to play for Crean.
Honestly you think this is Crean's fault? Players transfer and decommit when coaching changes are made all the time. Regardless what we all think of him, Sampson was a heck of a recruiter and his recruits really loved him. Add to the coaching turnover the sanctions that were befalling the program and the gloom and doom predicted on ESPN everyday, and of course the talent with the means to go elsewhere bailed. Any rational person in those guys' position would do the same. I've noticed the subsequent posts about blaming Buzz for losing Taylor, etc and think that would be equally ridiculous. I'll stay out of the coaching comparisons as best I can, but to say that Crean is somehow at fault for losing these players? Shenanigans.
Quote from: AnotherMU84 on March 30, 2010, 06:12:17 PM
aren't we dancing around the real issue? No one cares about IU's record in year 1 and year 2. We all knew it was going to be bad. The concerns are two:
1. The Big One: He is not getting the recruits everyone expected him to get. With IU having a clean slate, it was expected he would get a couple of top 10 classes. Hasn't happened yet. In fact, outside of Creek, they are not really the players that IU expected. Yes, he has recruiting restrictions, but "it's Indiana" the school is suppose to recruit itself.
2. The Smaller One: His team quit on him last year. The losses are not the problem, the problem is how they lost.
Everybody seems to only mention Creek, but Christian Watford is pretty close to him in talent. So let's say he's got two players Indiana expected.
Also, Bawa Miniru was
supposed to be a quality center, but he didn't show much his freshman year. Maybe part of the problem leading to Crean firing his big man coach.
Quote from: MUBurrow on March 30, 2010, 08:25:08 PM
And here I thought I was going to be able to stay out of this...
Honestly you think this is Crean's fault? Players transfer and decommit when coaching changes are made all the time. Regardless what we all think of him, Sampson was a heck of a recruiter and his recruits really loved him. Add to the coaching turnover the sanctions that were befalling the program and the gloom and doom predicted on ESPN everyday, and of course the talent with the means to go elsewhere bailed. Any rational person in those guys' position would do the same. I've noticed the subsequent posts about blaming Buzz for losing Taylor, etc and think that would be equally ridiculous. I'll stay out of the coaching comparisons as best I can, but to say that Crean is somehow at fault for losing these players? Shenanigans.
You are correct. I don't think Crean should be blamed for losing Crawford, Ebanks and Holloway any more than Buzz should be blamed that Taylor opted for his "dream school" when the opportunity presented itself. When I said that none of those guys wanted to play for Crean I was repeating verbatim what Chicos said about Buzz and Taylor, Nick Williams, etc. Chicos wants it both ways and I was trying to point out the hypocrisy. Maybe you weren't reading the board when Chicos took this position but he did it on numerous occasions.
The IU fans are going to be patient with Crean. Last year is about what was expected of Crean, good energy but not a lot of talent. This year was not as good, but excusable with injuries and youth.
But let's face it, Crean's 2010 recruiting class is a big disappointment. He will get them back to a competitive level next year. Maybe even an NIT birth. But he was unable to add anyone which is really probably not what the people at IU were expecting. He dropped the ball big time and there is really no way around it. They need some talent in there.
After Novak left, Crean at least got Hayward to play Novak's position. Barro and Fitz were able to step up and play good roles with the Three Amigos in order for MU to make the tourney again. He did not even duplicate that at place where he should have easily been able to. The expectations are a little higher at IU too.
I mean, the guy is handing out playing time at a top 5 school with this supposedly great facilities. It really is not what was expected of him and there is no way around that. Even if his failures get exaggerated a little bit on this board, the guy did not meet expectations in 2010.
Quote from: HoopsMalone on March 30, 2010, 10:25:19 PM
I mean, the guy is handing out playing time at a top 5 school with this supposedly great facilities. It really is not what was expected of him and there is no way around that. Even if his failures get exaggerated a little bit on this board, the guy did not meet expectations in 2010.
This seems to be the real point, and the reason the class of 2011 is so important to him. There are good players in his back yard that he simply has to get. Add to that the fact that Callipari made UK a national title contender in 1 year, Purdue keeps getting better, Butler is in the Final Four with a roster full of kids from IN, OSU, MSU, ND...they are surrounded by programs that are having tremendous success. I agree that I4 fans are being patient, but that patience is going to wear thin real quick if he doesn't assemble some talent and start to win some games real soon.
but Crean's recruits haven't been that bad:
Jordan Hulls (Mr. Basketball)
Matt Roth
Mo Creek
Christian Watford
Derek Elston
Throw in Verdel Jones, and a few of this year's recruits, and that is a solid rotation.
I am too lazy to look it up, but what were Baylor's current players (Dunn, Carty, et al) ranked coming out of high school? Seems like Drew was able to develop the talent. That is what Crean needs to do.
That 09 class was great for Crean. But I would have never guessed he would lay an egg like he did this year.
Maybe he will develop them, but the expectations when he signed were to have top-rated recruits every year. Not just three stars.
I don't think Indiana wants to set their bar at Baylor's recruiting. Though have had multiple 4-star players commit.
Quote from: NavinRJohnson on March 30, 2010, 03:27:24 PM
I didn't realize Baylor was a Top 5 program. If you think that is a valid comparison, you're kidding yourself. The situation at Baylor was way worse, and building Baylor from the ground up, and building Indiana from the ground up are not even close to the same challenge. I have never heard anyone utter the words, "Its Baylor. Its Baylor." Who are you trying to convince?
Exactly, I go nuts when apologists at the IU board start the Baylor comparisons.... Baylor has not been relevant since 1950!
Indiana, as hard as they were hit, should be recruiting itself right now.. so far they are not. TC has sat in Kyrie Irving's living room, Jelan Kendrick's living room, Josh Selby's living room and so many other big time players.... none want to come to Bloomington where playing time is plentiful??? It is very depressing.
Crean is not a good coach, that is obvious, so he has got to land talent....
And another poster mentioned Christian Watford as being "close" to Creek in talent........... ?-(
NFW.... I think Watford is terribly overrated.... He is not a great athlete, he is not qiuck, he got the ball crammed down his throat at least 3 times a game (no exaggeration), he never finished around the rim, 40% of his point were scored from the free throw line... which he is great FT shooter :) But many on the IU board are saying CW will be a "great" SF? I do not see it at all..... Derek Elston got half of the minutes a game that CW got 28/15 and Derek was "far" more productive than CW per minute played. Yet Crean refused all season to give Elston minutes, and never took CW out.????
Tom Crean offered David Williams a schollie on the spot after a workout last year.... a 1 star forward.... LOL Which IU later rescinded after Williams fizzed on the AAU circuit.
UGHHHHHHHHHH :o
Crean is great at PR..... His teams played hard last season (not this season), He is horrible at coaching, he can't recruit... so far, ....... and worst of all I think he is a horrible evaluator of talent. I am just totally unimpressed with him...
He has parlayed a relationship with D Wade into a lot of cheez....
But I guess it is nothing a few 5 star recruits can't cure. ;)
IU has a state of the art practice facility opening up any day now... lets see if this helps?
It has been nothing but excuses at IU so far, and I am sick of it.... ::)
Quote from: CrimsonNCrean on March 31, 2010, 04:38:21 PM
Exactly, I go nuts when apologists at the IU board start the Baylor comparisons.... Baylor has not been relevant since 1950!
Indiana, as hard as they were hit, should be recruiting itself right now.. so far they are not. TC has sat in Kyrie Irving's living room, Jelan Kendrick's living room, Josh Selby's living room and so many other big time players.... none want to come to Bloomington where playing time is plentiful??? It is very depressing.
Crean is not a good coach, that is obvious, so he has got to land talent....
And another poster mentioned Christian Watford as being "close" to Creek in talent........... ?-(
NFW.... I think Watford is terribly overrated.... He is not a great athlete, he is not qiuck, he got the ball crammed down his throat at least 3 times a game (no exaggeration), he never finished around the rim, 40% of his point were scored from the free throw line... which he is great FT shooter :) But many on the IU board are saying CW will be a "great" SF? I do not see it at all..... Derek Elston got half of the minutes a game that CW got 28/15 and Derek was "far" more productive than CW per minute played. Yet Crean refused all season to give Elston minutes, and never took CW out.????
Tom Crean offered David Williams a schollie on the spot after a workout last year.... a 1 star forward.... LOL Which IU later rescinded after Williams fizzed on the AAU circuit.
UGHHHHHHHHHH :o
Crean is great at PR..... His teams played hard last season (not this season), He is horrible at coaching, he can't recruit... so far, ....... and worst of all I think he is a horrible evaluator of talent. I am just totally unimpressed with him...
He has parlayed a relationship with D Wade into a lot of cheez....
But I guess it is nothing a few 5 star recruits can't cure. ;)
IU has a state of the art practice facility opening up any day now... lets see if this helps?
It has been nothing but excuses at IU so far, and I am sick of it.... ::)
When IU raided Marquette for a head coach, it picked the wrong one..Buzz Williams would have been a much better choice..but obviously nobody could have predicted that at the time IU came calling
Quote from: Ners on March 31, 2010, 04:43:31 PM
When IU raided Marquette for a head coach, it picked the wrong one..Buzz Williams would have been a much better choice..but obviously nobody could have predicted that at the time IU came calling
I agree... Buzz did a fantastic job this and last season.... I think Buzz's success is part of the reason Crean kicked out those "pro" MU tweets a couple of weeks ago.... To remind everyone how "important" he thinks he really is....
He has got to step it up in a big way, because he is slowly getting exposed. But I am fearful of a ten year run of very average BB ..... :-[
Billy G had Buzz and then went to a top 5 program. He did not meet expectations.
Tom Crean had Buzz and then went to a top 5 program. He has probably about met expectations, but pressure is on.
Quote from: indeelaw90 on March 31, 2010, 08:24:36 AM
I am too lazy to look it up, but what were Baylor's current players (Dunn, Carty, et al) ranked coming out of high school? Seems like Drew was able to develop the talent. That is what Crean needs to do.
looking at Baylor's roster it looks like they had 6 players that were ranked in the top 20 at their postition coming out of high school. That's some decent talent.
Dunn, the leading scorer at about 20 a game was the only 5-star recruit.
Add in Perry Jones (#2-C) coming in the 2010 class and IMO that appears to be well above what Indiana is bringing in.
Since 2004 Drew has recruited 13 four stars and has a five coming in next season... and a slew of 3 stars....
He has really recruited very well, and has been labeled a "shady" recruiter by many Big 12 coaches.. But, ...... I'm sure Baylor's fans don't mind...
Quote from: Utile et Dulce on March 30, 2010, 05:19:23 PM
Let's agree that the coaches situation (penalties, starting rosters) are the same.
Baylor was able to turn around the program and post a winning record by year 5. Given that Indiana has a prestige, history, and recruiting base that Baylor simply can't match, can we expect that they will match or exceed this time frame?
Does compiling a 20-10-ish record in year five make Crean a success or a failure? Should he turn it around faster, considering his resources (vs those available at Baylor)?
Baylor gives a good benchmark, but I'd think IU, as an elite program, isn't looking to match their progress.
I think IU will have a winning record maybe next year...that would be year 3....but you make a fair point. If they stay healthy next year, they basically have to win 6 more games than they did this year to become a team with a winning record. That would put them at 16-15. I predicted .500 team for year 3 and potential NIT team, so that's about on track for my predictions.
We'll see what happens.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 30, 2010, 09:11:15 PM
You are correct. I don't think Crean should be blamed for losing Crawford, Ebanks and Holloway any more than Buzz should be blamed that Taylor opted for his "dream school" when the opportunity presented itself. When I said that none of those guys wanted to play for Crean I was repeating verbatim what Chicos said about Buzz and Taylor, Nick Williams, etc. Chicos wants it both ways and I was trying to point out the hypocrisy. Maybe you weren't reading the board when Chicos took this position but he did it on numerous occasions.
BULLCRAP
Actually you didn't read my posts properly or you wouldn't have stated it that way. Sigh. Talk about hypocrisy.
First, you keep comparing the situations as if they were identical. They were not. One school was going on probation for an untold number of years, the other school was not. For some reason you continue to excuse this as if it has no bearing on the situation at all, when Crawford's OWN WORDS in his appeal to the NCAA show it was a huge issue.
You also fail to mention that I also said it's NORMAL for players to want to transfer when a new coach comes in. I did not blame Buzz for losing those players at MU. I said, clearly, those guys did not want to play for Buzz Williiams. Taylor's own coach said he had no idea who Buzz even was. That's the reality of it. This is NOT the reason the IU guys transferred out....they did not want to play at a school that was going on probation. Why can't you get that through your head?
But rest assured, I did not blame Buzz for those players leaving, they just didn't want to play for Buzz Williams. It happens. If you can find a thread that said I blamed him for those guys leaving, please show me. There is a wonderful search function on this site in the upper right hand corner.
Quote from: Ners on March 31, 2010, 04:43:31 PM
When IU raided Marquette for a head coach, it picked the wrong one..Buzz Williams would have been a much better choice..but obviously nobody could have predicted that at the time IU came calling
LOL
Yeah, and you think the IU faithful would have gone for that hire. Give me a break. We don't even know how if we have the right guy yet nor does IU. It takes years to determine that.
Quote from: CrimsonNCrean on March 31, 2010, 04:38:21 PM
TC has sat in Kyrie Irving's living room, Jelan Kendrick's living room, Josh Selby's living room and so many other big time players.... none want to come to Bloomington where playing time is plentiful??? It is very depressing.
Crean's problem is his personality and complete lack of charisma. He has literally never beaten a legitimate major program out for a major recruit. Dominic James was highly rated, but didn't get an offer until the last minute. Jerel McNeal was being recruited by, I think, Dayton. Wade's case is well documented. Novak was rumored to have been offered by Florida and Illinois...but he was in our backyard. Diener was being recruited by Utah and St. Louis.
The only positive thing that will come out of Crean at Indiana is that Mike Davis' Indiana legacy will soon start looking like Tom Izzo's.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 31, 2010, 06:46:47 PM
You also fail to mention that I also said it's NORMAL for players to want to transfer when a new coach comes in. I did not blame Buzz for losing those players at MU. I said, clearly, those guys did not want to play for Buzz Williiams. Taylor's own coach said he had no idea who Buzz even was. That's the reality of it. This is NOT the reason the IU guys transferred out....they did not want to play at a school that was going on probation. Why can't you get that through your head?
You don't blame Buzz for losing those players, yet consistently state the reason they're not at MU is because they didn't want to play for Buzz?
Hmmm.
Regardless, you continue to shade/fudge the truth on the Taylor situation.
Regardless of what Hurley said, Tyshawn Taylor was quoted as stating that he knew Buzz Williams, Buzz Williams was the assistant that recruited him to Marquette and likely the only way he would stay committed to Marquette is if Buzz Williams were named head coach. You consistently ignore this while citing what Hurley said, as if what the player himself said is irrelevant.
Now, ultimately Taylor's relationship with Buzz still wasn't enough to keep him away from Kansas (big shock), but it's very clear that the decision was not a matter of him
not wanting to play for Buzz Williams.
To the contrary, Taylor stated on the record that he would want to play for Buzz Williams.
This may surprise you, but most kids don't decide where they're going to play based upon who they
don't want to play for. Jae Crowder didn't choose MU because he didn't want to play for Lon Kruger. Reggie Smith didn't choose Marquette because he didn't want to play for Kevin O'Neill. Jamail Jones didn't choose Marquette because he didn't want to play for Jeff Capel and Chris Mack.
And, yes, Tyshawn Taylor didn't choose Kansas because he didn't want to play for Buzz Williams. He chose Kansas because he wanted to play for Kansas.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on March 31, 2010, 06:46:47 PM
BULLCRAP
Actually you didn't read my posts properly or you wouldn't have stated it that way. Sigh. Talk about hypocrisy.
First, you keep comparing the situations as if they were identical. They were not. One school was going on probation for an untold number of years, the other school was not. For some reason you continue to excuse this as if it has no bearing on the situation at all, when Crawford's OWN WORDS in his appeal to the NCAA show it was a huge issue.
You also fail to mention that I also said it's NORMAL for players to want to transfer when a new coach comes in. I did not blame Buzz for losing those players at MU. I said, clearly, those guys did not want to play for Buzz Williiams. Taylor's own coach said he had no idea who Buzz even was. That's the reality of it. This is NOT the reason the IU guys transferred out....they did not want to play at a school that was going on probation. Why can't you get that through your head?
But rest assured, I did not blame Buzz for those players leaving, they just didn't want to play for Buzz Williams. It happens. If you can find a thread that said I blamed him for those guys leaving, please show me. There is a wonderful search function on this site in the upper right hand corner.
You can capitalize your little "naughty" words. You can say I lack the acumen to understand your posts. You can sigh until the cows come home. (has anyone ever told you how annoyingly childish that is?) But you can't change the facts. There were all kinds of circumstances that resulted in Mbawke leaving and Taylor and Nick Williams never arriving at MU. There were also all kinds of circumstances that resulted in Crawford leaving and Ebanks and Holloway never arriving at IU. In the former case you dismissed all those circumstances and arrived at the simplistic conclusion that "they didn't want to play for Buzz Williams". In the latter case it's all about the circumstances. It doesn't get any more hypocritical than that.
When Crean arrived Crawford, Holman, Bassett, Ellis were all still on the team... and Ebanks and Hollaway were committed...
Bassett and Ellis were kicked off the team by Crean, and justifiably so.. Holman got in a big fight with Crean in his office and threw a flower pot at him, thus he transferred... After all of this, Crawford was left with Tabor and the incoming recruits... he chose to leave.. and I can't blame him.
Now after all of this would anyone really expect Ebanks and TH to stay committed? I wouldn't... Not with the team decimated and NCAA penalties yet to be rendered...
It was just a chitty time.... and then a year later the NCAA does away with the rule that screwed Kelvin S :o ?-(
My school is cursed... the curse of Bobby Knight... ;)
Quote from: CrimsonNCrean on March 31, 2010, 04:38:21 PMAnd another poster mentioned Christian Watford as being "close" to Creek in talent........... ?-(
NFW.... I think Watford is terribly overrated.... He is not a great athlete, he is not qiuck, he got the ball crammed down his throat at least 3 times a game (no exaggeration), he never finished around the rim, 40% of his point were scored from the free throw line... which he is great FT shooter :) But many on the IU board are saying CW will be a "great" SF? I do not see it at all..... Derek Elston got half of the minutes a game that CW got 28/15 and Derek was "far" more productive than CW per minute played. Yet Crean refused all season to give Elston minutes, and never took CW out.????
Sounds like Crean's found his next Dan Fitzgerald. He falls in love with a guy, inexplicably gives him tons of minutes, and the production is absolutely not there. Maybe if you guys are lucky he'll try to convert this Watford to PG like he did with Fitz, with disastrous results.
Edit: I should mention that Fitz was 6'10", had no passing skills to speak of, not very athletic, and only an ok ball handler.
Quote from: CrimsonNCrean on March 31, 2010, 10:39:03 PM
It was just a chitty time.... and then a year later the NCAA does away with the rule that screwed Kelvin S :o ?-(
Repealed or not, it was a rule when Kelvin violated it repeatedly at Oklahoma, got caught, got hired on at Indiana (seriously, what was the IU administration thinking?), continued to violate it at Indiana, and got caught again.
Stupid rule or not, that must be punished in some form. Sadly, the NCAA only really has "authority" over the schools, so OU and IU took the flack for Kelvin's actions (although I would argue IU deserved some of it just for hiring him in the first place).
Oh I agree... and the IU administration is run by some seriously incompetent people. Why in the hell would you give anyone outside of Izzo, K, Self, or Roy W a 8 year contract? And then before a game is even played they tack on 2 more???
Thad Motta should be coaching IU right now ...... but... >:(
Quote from: CrimsonNCrean on March 31, 2010, 11:26:05 PM
Oh I agree... and the IU administration is run by some seriously incompetent people. Why in the hell would you give anyone outside of Izzo, K, Self, or Roy W a 8 year contract? And then before a game is even played they tack on 2 more???
Thad Motta should be coaching IU right now ...... but... >:(
well, he had 9 years left on his deal here when he left, so I'm guessing that played into it. Why leave 9 years stability for a 3-4-5 year deal? Why leave 9 years @ $1.6 million for 4 years @ $2.3 million? etc.
Really, the $14.4 million guaranteed that MU was on the hook for was probably the minimum starting point, and then IU had to make it worth his while.
Crean's situation will be this: He turns around the Indiana program, surprises some people, doesn't win the Big Ten title and/or doesn't make the NCAAs, then Indiana says, "Thank you for restoring our program" and shows him the door.
He's not going to be the Indiana coach for a LONG time.
He was brought in to restore credibility and prove to the NCAAs that Indiana was serious about taking care of in-house issues.
Once that's done, see ya TC.
Quote from: TJ on March 31, 2010, 10:39:48 PM
Sounds like Crean's found his next Dan Fitzgerald. He falls in love with a guy, inexplicably gives him tons of minutes, and the production is absolutely not there. Maybe if you guys are lucky he'll try to convert this Watford to PG like he did with Fitz, with disastrous results.
Edit: I should mention that Fitz was 6'10", had no passing skills to speak of, not very athletic, and only an ok ball handler.
Don't get me wrong although I think he is very over rated... I do think he will be a "good" 4 year player, I just do not see him being the all star many IU fans do.
I think C Wat may have had set the NCAA record for getting his shot blocked... :( He played the 4 all season yet simply could never drive by his man let alone finish when he got there... And many IU fans fancy him as a SF?? I don'[t see it. He just in not that quick and athletic.
I remember my friends who went to Indiana saying that Crean was going to make them forget about Bob Knight since he made Marquette. In Crean's defense, the expectations were way too high for him at IU to start. He was not talented enough for the hype he got. He did nothing to appease it. The IU program had pages and pages about Michigan State and Marquette making it sound like the Wooden days at UCLA. I'm sure he did not object to that.
There were a lot of people who did not like Crean as a coach, but rooted for him because it was Marquette. People also feared a Lickliter type of situation, so everyone preferred the same bet in Crean at MU. He probably would have never been fired if he maintained a 20 win pace at MU.
But I digress. Even the person who doubted Crean's abilities the most when he left in April 2008, would not have guessed this kind of recruiting. If you polled this forum back then and asked if Crean would have and 4 or 5 star recruits in his 2010 class, I would be shocked if anyone said no. This recruiting is not going to make anyone forget about Bob Knight because the guy who made Marquette into something is there now.
The book is not closed on TC at Indiana. He will have a few more years of pacing and clapping on the sidelines. He'll get a 4 star eventually to say yes. But maybe the life lesson is that when you have a really good job, why risk the comfortable cash flow and and cushy set up? It's Indiana????
Quote from: HoopsMalone on April 01, 2010, 12:19:41 AM
I remember my friends who went to Indiana saying that Crean was going to make them forget about Bob Knight since he made Marquette. In Crean's defense, the expectations were way too high for him at IU to start. He was not talented enough for the hype he got. He did nothing to appease it. The IU program had pages and pages about Michigan State and Marquette making it sound like the Wooden days at UCLA. I'm sure he did not object to that.
There were a lot of people who did not like Crean as a coach, but rooted for him because it was Marquette. People also feared a Lickliter type of situation, so everyone preferred the same bet in Crean at MU. He probably would have never been fired if he maintained a 20 win pace at MU.
But I digress. Even the person who doubted Crean's abilities the most when he left in April 2008, would not have guessed this kind of recruiting. If you polled this forum back then and asked if Crean would have and 4 or 5 star recruits in his 2010 class, I would be shocked if anyone said no. This recruiting is not going to make anyone forget about Bob Knight because the guy who made Marquette into something is there now.
The book is not closed on TC at Indiana. He will have a few more years of pacing and clapping on the sidelines. He'll get a 4 star eventually to say yes. But maybe the life lesson is that when you have a really good job, why risk the comfortable cash flow and and cushy set up? It's Indiana????
well said.....
Yes expectations were and are incredibly high.... the administration should have swallowed their pride when they hired Davis way back and hired Alford, at least they should have given him a chance.... He was hip to exactly what he would have been getting into.
It is such a pleasure to watch Tom Crean spin in the wind down there. Nobody is more deserving. I hope he feels as crappy as each of the kids did that he ran off from his promise of a Marquette athletic scholarship. I hope he feels the shock and outrage his team did when finding about his treachery from ESPN. I hope he is accorded the same level of dignity he extended to so many coaches when he excuted his patented fly-by end-of-game handshake (I cringed for Marquette every time he did that callous, childish act.) Tom Crean is completely unworthy of our compassion. He is a vulgar, uncouth person.
Id do anything to see Buzz take on Crean!
Quote from: CrimsonNCrean on April 01, 2010, 12:16:46 AM
Don't get me wrong although I think he is very over rated... I do think he will be a "good" 4 year player, I just do not see him being the all star many IU fans do.
I think C Wat may have had set the NCAA record for getting his shot blocked... :( He played the 4 all season yet simply could never drive by his man let alone finish when he got there... And many IU fans fancy him as a SF?? I don'[t see it. He just in not that quick and athletic.
Are you sure you're not describing Fitz? The resemblance seems uncanny.
Quote from: TJ on March 31, 2010, 11:42:03 PM
well, he had 9 years left on his deal here when he left, so I'm guessing that played into it. Why leave 9 years stability for a 3-4-5 year deal? Why leave 9 years @ $1.6 million for 4 years @ $2.3 million? etc.
Really, the $14.4 million guaranteed that MU was on the hook for was probably the minimum starting point, and then IU had to make it worth his while.
Why?....Why? becuase its Indiana!!!!!!!!!
Quote from: HoopsMalone on April 01, 2010, 12:19:41 AM
I remember my friends who went to Indiana saying that Crean was going to make them forget about Bob Knight since he made Marquette. In Crean's defense, the expectations were way too high for him at IU to start. He was not talented enough for the hype he got. He did nothing to appease it. The IU program had pages and pages about Michigan State and Marquette making it sound like the Wooden days at UCLA. I'm sure he did not object to that.
There were a lot of people who did not like Crean as a coach, but rooted for him because it was Marquette. People also feared a Lickliter type of situation, so everyone preferred the same bet in Crean at MU. He probably would have never been fired if he maintained a 20 win pace at MU.
But I digress. Even the person who doubted Crean's abilities the most when he left in April 2008, would not have guessed this kind of recruiting. If you polled this forum back then and asked if Crean would have and 4 or 5 star recruits in his 2010 class, I would be shocked if anyone said no. This recruiting is not going to make anyone forget about Bob Knight because the guy who made Marquette into something is there now.
The book is not closed on TC at Indiana. He will have a few more years of pacing and clapping on the sidelines. He'll get a 4 star eventually to say yes. But maybe the life lesson is that when you have a really good job, why risk the comfortable cash flow and and cushy set up? It's Indiana????
You apparently dont remeber 75% of the players Crean signed to MU. I beleive he truly beleives his own lies of turning Dwade from some two handed dribbling stumblebum into the superstar he is today. He then seems other players that are marginally talented and thinks becuase in his own mind he works harder than anyone else and becuase he is Tommy Naismith that these players will flourish.
Probably that and the fact that he is lacks the class or personality required to recruit with the big boys.
Just as one might wonder how he could possibly sign the players he has for IU in 2010, did you not wonder the same things when he was out signing the 1 and 2 stars that he was signing at MU? Niv berkowitz, Jamil Lott, Mik kinsella, James Matthews, Carlton Christian, Cubillan, Acker, Pat Hazel. Since the 2003 Final 4 how many undeniable high major D1 players did he even sign? The answer is 5. The rest were not even marginal.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on March 31, 2010, 10:18:32 PM
You can capitalize your little "naughty" words. You can say I lack the acumen to understand your posts. You can sigh until the cows come home. (has anyone ever told you how annoyingly childish that is?) But you can't change the facts. There were all kinds of circumstances that resulted in Mbawke leaving and Taylor and Nick Williams never arriving at MU. There were also all kinds of circumstances that resulted in Crawford leaving and Ebanks and Holloway never arriving at IU. In the former case you dismissed all those circumstances and arrived at the simplistic conclusion that "they didn't want to play for Buzz Williams". In the latter case it's all about the circumstances. It doesn't get any more hypocritical than that.
You said I blamed Buzz for them leaving....I've invited you to use the search function...Pakuni can do the same. I have NEVER blamed Buzz for them transferring. Yes, I have said they didn't want to play for Buzz Williams...that is a fact. That is not the same as blaming him that they left. It's not even the same argument. If a kid doesn't want to play for someone then they don't want to play for someone. It's quite simple. Doesn't mean the new coach forced them out or made them transfer, it's the kid's decision.
This is the part that you, Pakuni, and others can't process.....IT'S THE KIDS DECISION. If they don't want to play for a certain coach, that's the kids choice, no one is blaming the coach. Only you psuedo Cleo Shrinks who play doctor like to go in that direction. If a kid chooses not to play at a school because they are about to go on probation, that IS THE KIDS DECISION.
Thanks for pointing out what is childish Lenny, you might want to do a search on yourself while you're at. That would be a lesson in hypocrisy, something you haven't learned the definition of yet considering how you use it here, but words were always an issue for you financial types ("beg", "alum", etc)
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 01, 2010, 12:24:52 PM
You said I blamed Buzz for them leaving....I've invited you to use the search function...Pakuni can do the same. I have NEVER blamed Buzz for them transferring. Yes, I have said they didn't want to play for Buzz Williams...that is a fact. That is not the same as blaming him that they left. It's not even the same argument. If a kid doesn't want to play for someone then they don't want to play for someone. It's quite simple. Doesn't mean the new coach forced them out or made them transfer, it's the kid's decision.
This is the part that you, Pakuni, and others can't process.....IT'S THE KIDS DECISION. If they don't want to play for a certain coach, that's the kids choice, no one is blaming the coach. Only you psuedo Cleo Shrinks who play doctor like to go in that direction. If a kid chooses not to play at a school because they are about to go on probation, that IS THE KIDS DECISION.
You're pretty good at playing semantics here.
You claim that you don't blame Buzz for Tyshawn Taylor not sticking with MU ... then say THE REASON Tyshawn Taylor isn't at MU is Buzz.
Huh?
If that's not blaming Buzz, what is it?
Besides a false statement, I mean.
Funny that you say "IT'S THE KIDS DECISION," yet frequently cite Hurley's remarks while ignoring Taylor's.
Which is it? If "IT'S THE KIDS DECISION" then Hurley's remarks are irrelevant and what matters are those of Taylor. Those remarks contradict your assertion that he didn't want to play for Buzz.
What you seem to be unable to process is that Taylor's decision was not a matter of him
not wanting to play for Buzz, it was a matter of him
wanting to play for Kansas. And your unwillingess to admit this is the result of your wish to blame Buzz.
Why are you guys even debating this? What are you trying to prove to each other?
Transfers happen all of the time when a new coach comes in. It's not really anybody's "fault", its just that a player may not chose to play for the new coach. Often he wasn't even recruited by the new coach, and doesn't know anything about the system or program.
That's life. It will happen again this year with SJU, Seton Hall, DePaul, etc.
It happens all of the time. Why are you guys fighting about it?
When I started this thread I had no idea it would receive this many posts, last this long, and change subjects so many times.
Quote from: 2002MUalum on April 01, 2010, 01:14:26 PM
Why are you guys even debating this? What are you trying to prove to each other?
You're right. It's a silly debate. I don't believe anyone is trying to claim new coaches are to blame when a former coaches' layers/recruits bail.
Rather, I think - for probably useless reasons, I admit - some are trying to point out the inconsitencies of a certain poster who held Buzz Williams responsible for the likes of Tyshawn Taylor bailing on MU when Crean left.
Well, he statements were made to the effect of "Tyshawn Taylor didn't come to Marquette because he didn't want to play for Buzz Williams and his high school coach ahd never heard of Buzz."
I suppose people can form their own opinions as to whether that's pointing the finger at Buzz.
By the way, I quit my job today for the sole reason that I could no longer stand working for my boss.
But nobody should blame him for my departure.
Quote from: Pakuni on April 01, 2010, 02:17:00 PM
Well, he statements were made to the effect of "Tyshawn Taylor didn't come to Marquette because he didn't want to play for Buzz Williams and his high school coach ahd never heard of Buzz."
I thought Taylor's comments at the time were were to the effect that he had a better relationship with Buzz than with Crean, and that the only way he would still come to MU would be if they hired Buzz as coach.
Quote from: KipsBayEagle on April 01, 2010, 01:44:13 PM
When I started this thread I had no idea it would receive this many posts, last this long, and change subjects so many times.
Shouldn't this be in teal? ;D
Quote from: Marquette84 on April 01, 2010, 02:59:33 PM
I thought Taylor's comments at the time were were to the effect that he had a better relationship with Buzz than with Crean, and that the only way he would still come to MU would be if they hired Buzz as coach.
They were.
Which is why a certain poster's claims that he didn't want to play for Buzz are not correct.
Quote from: Pakuni on April 01, 2010, 02:17:00 PM
You're right. It's a silly debate. I don't believe anyone is trying to claim new coaches are to blame when a former coaches' layers/recruits bail.
Rather, I think - for probably useless reasons, I admit - some are trying to point out the inconsitencies of a certain poster who held Buzz Williams responsible for the likes of Tyshawn Taylor bailing on MU when Crean left.
Well, he statements were made to the effect of "Tyshawn Taylor didn't come to Marquette because he didn't want to play for Buzz Williams and his high school coach ahd never heard of Buzz."
I suppose people can form their own opinions as to whether that's pointing the finger at Buzz.
By the way, I quit my job today for the sole reason that I could no longer stand working for my boss.
But nobody should blame him for my departure.
Fair enough, but I'm just not sure this is CBB trying to somehow make Buzz look bad. I know some guys around here are convinced that CBB is always trying to dig at Buzz, but I guess I'm just not reading it that way.
Factually, Taylor would have played at MU if Crean had stayed, he left because he didn't want to play for (insert coach here).
Factually, Crawford committed to Sampson. He left because he didn't want to play for (insert coach).
A lot of times it doesn't matter who the coach is (thus the "insert coach"). When a coach leaves, players re-evaluate their situations and often make changes (transferring).
I don't think that is an indictment of Buzz or TC, or Tubby Smith, or anybody. It's just the facts.
Quote from: Pakuni on April 01, 2010, 03:39:59 PM
They were.
Which is why a certain poster's claims that he didn't want to play for Buzz are not correct.
It's funny how you only take some quotes from what he said and not others. That's called cherry picking. Sigh (that's for you Lenny).
Additionally, last I checked, there were multiple players that left, not just TT. There was TM, SC, NW and TT.
And yes, it's a silly debate and Lenny continues to read things that aren't there.
Quote from: 2002MUalum on April 01, 2010, 03:50:22 PM
Fair enough, but I'm just not sure this is CBB trying to somehow make Buzz look bad. I know some guys around here are convinced that CBB is always trying to dig at Buzz, but I guess I'm just not reading it that way.
Factually, Taylor would have played at MU if Crean had stayed, he left because he didn't want to play for (insert coach here).
But this is where we differ. I don't believe this is the fact, and I think Taylor's own comments support what I'm saying.
You are correct that Taylor would have played at MU had Crean stayed. He was contractually obligated to do so. Well, either that or not play at all.
Crean's departure, however, gave him an opportunity to get out of that obligation just when, conveniently enough, a much more prominent program called Kansas came a-calling.
Taylor didn't leave because
he didn't want to play for (insert coach here). He left because
he did want to play for Kansas. There's a difference.
Let's be honest. 95+ percent of kids in the same situation would do the same. Crean's departure gave Taylor an out, and that out let him go to a better program. It had nothing to do with Buzz, a guy Taylor himself had nothing but good things to say about. It was all about Kansas.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 01, 2010, 04:02:48 PM
It's funny how you only take some quotes from what he said and not others. That's called cherry picking. Sigh (that's for you Lenny).
Well, if you have quotes from Taylor - Taylor, not Hurley - that indicate he did not want to play for Buzz, had an issue with Buzz, etc., please post them. Otherwise, I'm not sure what I'm cherry picking. I've seen no quotes to that effect.
QuoteAdditionally, last I checked, there were multiple players that left, not just TT. There was TM, SC, NW and TT.
That's true. But I believe Taylor is the only one you've claimed didn't come to Marquette "because he didn't want to play for Buzz Williams."
In fact, if I'm not mistaken, Williams was released several days before Buzz was even named head coach.
Quote from: Pakuni on April 01, 2010, 05:02:12 PM
But this is where we differ. I don't believe this is the fact, and I think Taylor's own comments support what I'm saying.
You are correct that Taylor would have played at MU had Crean stayed. He was contractually obligated to do so. Well, either that or not play at all.
Crean's departure, however, gave him an opportunity to get out of that obligation just when, conveniently enough, a much more prominent program called Kansas came a-calling.
Taylor didn't leave because he didn't want to play for (insert coach here). He left because he did want to play for Kansas. There's a difference.
Let's be honest. 95+ percent of kids in the same situation would do the same. Crean's departure gave Taylor an out, and that out let him go to a better program. It had nothing to do with Buzz, a guy Taylor himself had nothing but good things to say about. It was all about Kansas.
Ehhh... we agree 90% and disagree a little (which is no big deal).
I really don't see the difference in a Tyshawn Taylor transfer vs a Jordan Crawford transfer. The coach that they originally signed up to play for left, they re-evaluated their situations, and decided to transfer. It happens A LOT, and it doesn't always have to do with KU taking a Marquette player. Scott Christopherson transferred. I don't think that is because Iowa State came a-calling.
I don't blame the incoming coach (whoever it is) for having some kids transfer. That's just life sometimes.
Also, as far a Taylor "liking" Buzz, I can believe that (Buzz is a likable guy), but obviously Taylor didn't like him enough to stay, which is Taylor's choice and isn't Buzz's fault.
Quote from: 2002MUalum on April 02, 2010, 11:35:49 AM
Ehhh... we agree 90% and disagree a little (which is no big deal).
I really don't see the difference in a Tyshawn Taylor transfer vs a Jordan Crawford transfer. The coach that they originally signed up to play for left, they re-evaluated their situations, and decided to transfer. It happens A LOT, and it doesn't always have to do with KU taking a Marquette player. Scott Christopherson transferred. I don't think that is because Iowa State came a-calling.
I don't blame the incoming coach (whoever it is) for having some kids transfer. That's just life sometimes.
Also, as far a Taylor "liking" Buzz, I can believe that (Buzz is a likable guy), but obviously Taylor didn't like him enough to stay, which is Taylor's choice and isn't Buzz's fault.
Well put, not sure why others have such difficulty understanding this.
Quote from: 2002MUalum on April 02, 2010, 11:35:49 AM
Ehhh... we agree 90% and disagree a little (which is no big deal).
I really don't see the difference in a Tyshawn Taylor transfer vs a Jordan Crawford transfer. The coach that they originally signed up to play for left, they re-evaluated their situations, and decided to transfer. It happens A LOT, and it doesn't always have to do with KU taking a Marquette player. Scott Christopherson transferred. I don't think that is because Iowa State came a-calling.
I don't blame the incoming coach (whoever it is) for having some kids transfer. That's just life sometimes.
Also, as far a Taylor "liking" Buzz, I can believe that (Buzz is a likable guy), but obviously Taylor didn't like him enough to stay, which is Taylor's choice and isn't Buzz's fault.
You're right ...sorta ... and I have no problem with what you're saying.
My issue is with those who state that Taylor isn't at MU
because of Buzz Williams. He isn't at MU because there was a coaching change and that change provided him with an opportunity to accept a better offer. By stating that Taylor isn't at MU because he didn't want to play for Buzz (despite the fact he indicated he wanted out days before Buzz's hire) implies that he would have stayed at MU had someone other than Buzz been named coach. I'd suggest that once Crean left and Kansas offered, MU had no chance of keeping Taylor. The fact Taylor said he wanted out well before Buzz was hired would seem to support this. The fact that he said about the only way he'd stay is if Buzz were hired also seems to support this.
Sorry, but the argument that he didn't want to play for Buzz is contradicted by what Taylor said. His decision had nothing to do with Buzz. He just wanted to play for Kansas more than he did Marquette, stunning as that may seem to someone here.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on April 02, 2010, 11:58:47 AM
Well put, not sure why others have such difficulty understanding this.
Your condescending attitude aside, Pakuni and I (and many others) have no "difficulty understanding" the points which 2002 makes. And in spite of the factual inaccuracy of defining Taylor as a transfer, (which alters the equation somewhat) I agree with the gist of his post. What I do have difficulty understanding is why you repeatedly stated the reason MU lost players was "they didn't want to play for Buzz Williams" and when the same thing happened at IU you don't even mention "they didn't want to play for Tom Crean" as a factor. If A is true so is B and vice versa. And it's hypocrisy to state otherwise.
What's being lost in the discussion about Taylor is that he really didn't initiate his release from his LOI, Hurley clearly clearly was the one pushing it, and he was the one contacting Marquette about it, and talking to the media. When Marquette told Hurley that they hadn't received a request for release from LOI for Tyshawn, the first official request from release wasn't signed by Tyshawn as is required, and when MU pointed this to Hurley, it took him a couple of days to get one with Tyshawn's signature. That's why when Hurley comes up there is always some negative commenting about him from posters.
Clearly, Hurley saw the potential for Tyshaw to go to a better program, and at the very least, encouraged him to do so.
Modification: I do not mean to imply that Hurley was in any way getting something out of this for himself. But, I do think that Hurley was convinced that Kansas was a better destination for Tyshawn, and probably convinced a possibly reluctant Tyshawn to go that route.
Hurley is a tool.
Quote from: KipsBayEagle on March 26, 2010, 10:28:49 AM
Matt Carlino, a shooting guard out of Bloomington ranked number 61 in the espn 100 class for 2011 decommitted from Indiana and is reopening his recruitment. I am not starting this thread to bash Crean, but what is going on over there? Crean can't get anyone to commit, and IU looks like it is no better off than when the whole Sampson thing started. Crean can't have much time left there if this keeps up.
What a head case this guy continues to be...as I said months ago.
He's transferring now from UCLA...just announced. TOTAL HEADCASE
http://sports.espn.go.com/los-angeles/ncf/news/story?id=5907114
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 11, 2010, 11:15:57 AM
What a head case this guy continues to be...as I said months ago.
He's transferring now from UCLA...just announced. TOTAL HEADCASE
http://sports.espn.go.com/los-angeles/ncf/news/story?id=5907114
Well, yes, a concussion usually is in the head.
Quote from: MARQKC on December 11, 2010, 12:00:04 PM
Well, yes, a concussion usually is in the head.
LOL. True, but I was referencing this guy's bouncing around from high to high school, committing and then non-committing, and now transferring out of college.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 11, 2010, 11:15:57 AM
What a head case this guy continues to be...as I said months ago.
He's transferring now from UCLA...just announced. TOTAL HEADCASE
http://sports.espn.go.com/los-angeles/ncf/news/story?id=5907114
So why are seasoned coaches like Howland and Crean recruiting a TOTAL HEADCASE? If our own board rips an inexperienced guy like Buzz for doing it, I can only imagine the outrage this has caused Bloomington and LA.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 11, 2010, 04:05:38 PM
LOL. True, but I was referencing this guy's bouncing around from high to high school, committing and then non-committing, and now transferring out of college.
Hard to find maturity and focus in 18-19 year olds. I like that Buzz looks for that in his recruiting. See Rosiak's blog today about Vander.
Quote from: Lennys Tap on December 11, 2010, 05:16:37 PM
So why are seasoned coaches like Howland and Crean recruiting a TOTAL HEADCASE? If our own board rips an inexperienced guy like Buzz for doing it, I can only imagine the outrage this has caused Bloomington and LA.
I would say that you become a headcase over time, don't you? This kid's family moved him to Bloomington to go to high school (before he was in Arizona). He verballed to IU. From I heard internally at IU, there was definitely a cooling on both sides and no one at IU was particularly disappointed when he backed out of his commitment.
Then he goes to L.A. and signs with UCLA, a team desperate for guards and apparently willing to take a chance on him.
Now he's transferred again. The question, Lenny, is when does the head case label get earned? When he moved to Bloomington? Maybe, but I doubt it. When he decommitted from IU? Starting to get the label. When he transfers from UCLA...now it's earned.
It's a culmination of actions, not the first action.
Quote from: ChicosBailBonds on December 11, 2010, 08:45:21 PM
The question, Lenny, is when does the head case label get earned? When he moved to Bloomington? Maybe, but I doubt it. When he decommitted from IU? Starting to get the label. When he transfers from UCLA...now it's earned.
It's a culmination of actions, not the first action.
When? Well, we know it couldn't have been when TC was recruiting him. Or Ben Howland. They wouldn't recruit a kid who's even a bit of a headcase. All of a sudden he's a TOTAL HEADCASE. LOL