Crean loses another recruit

[CrimsonNCrean]

Since 2004 Drew has recruited 13 four stars and has a five coming in next season...    and a slew of 3 stars....   

He has really recruited very well, and has been labeled a "shady" recruiter by many Big 12 coaches..   But, ......   I'm sure Baylor's fans don't mind... 

[ChicosBailBonds]

Let's agree that the coaches situation (penalties, starting rosters) are the same.

Baylor was able to turn around the program and post a winning record by year 5. Given that Indiana has a prestige, history, and recruiting base that Baylor simply can't match, can we expect that they will match or exceed this time frame?

Does compiling a 20-10-ish record in year five make Crean a success or a failure? Should he turn it around faster, considering his resources (vs those available at Baylor)?

Baylor gives a good benchmark, but I'd think IU, as an elite program, isn't looking to match their progress.

I think IU will have a winning record maybe next year...that would be year 3....but you make a fair point.  If they stay healthy next year, they basically have to win 6 more games than they did this year to become a team with a winning record.  That would put them at 16-15.  I predicted .500 team for year 3 and potential NIT team, so that's about on track for my predictions.

We'll see what happens.

[ChicosBailBonds]

You are correct. I don't think Crean should be blamed for losing Crawford, Ebanks and Holloway any more than Buzz should be blamed that Taylor opted for his "dream school" when the opportunity presented itself. When I said that none of those guys wanted to play for Crean I was repeating verbatim what Chicos said about Buzz and Taylor, Nick Williams, etc. Chicos wants it both ways and I was trying to point out the hypocrisy. Maybe you weren't reading the board when Chicos took this position but he did it on numerous occasions.

BULLCRAP

Actually you didn't read my posts properly or you wouldn't have stated it that way.  Sigh.  Talk about hypocrisy.

First, you keep comparing the situations as if they were identical.  They were not.  One school was going on probation for an untold number of years, the other school was not.  For some reason you continue to excuse this as if it has no bearing on the situation at all, when Crawford's OWN WORDS in his appeal to the NCAA show it was a huge issue.

You also fail to mention that I also said it's NORMAL for players to want to transfer when a new coach comes in. I did not blame Buzz for losing those players at MU.  I said, clearly, those guys did not want to play for Buzz Williiams.  Taylor's own coach said he had no idea who Buzz even was.  That's the reality of it.  This is NOT the reason the IU guys transferred out....they did not want to play at a school that was going on probation.  Why can't you get that through your head?

But rest assured, I did not blame Buzz for those players leaving, they just didn't want to play for Buzz Williams.  It happens.  If you can find a thread that said I blamed him for those guys leaving, please show me.  There is a wonderful search function on this site in the upper right hand corner.

[ChicosBailBonds]

When IU raided Marquette for a head coach, it picked the wrong one..Buzz Williams would have been a much better choice..but obviously nobody could have predicted that at the time IU came calling

LOL

Yeah, and you think the IU faithful would have gone for that hire.  Give me a break.  We don't even know how if we have the right guy yet nor does IU.  It takes years to determine that. 

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

TC has sat in Kyrie Irving's living room, Jelan Kendrick's living room, Josh Selby's living room and so many other big time players....   none want to come to Bloomington where playing time is plentiful???   It is very depressing.

Crean's problem is his personality and complete lack of charisma. He has literally never beaten a legitimate major program out for a major recruit. Dominic James was highly rated, but didn't get an offer until the last minute. Jerel McNeal was being recruited by, I think, Dayton. Wade's case is well documented. Novak was rumored to have been offered by Florida and Illinois...but he was in our backyard. Diener was being recruited by Utah and St. Louis.

The only positive thing that will come out of Crean at Indiana is that Mike Davis' Indiana legacy will soon start looking like Tom Izzo's.

[Pakuni]

You also fail to mention that I also said it's NORMAL for players to want to transfer when a new coach comes in. I did not blame Buzz for losing those players at MU.  I said, clearly, those guys did not want to play for Buzz Williiams.  Taylor's own coach said he had no idea who Buzz even was.  That's the reality of it.  This is NOT the reason the IU guys transferred out....they did not want to play at a school that was going on probation.  Why can't you get that through your head?

You don't blame Buzz for losing those players, yet consistently state the reason they're not at MU is because they didn't want to play for Buzz?
Hmmm.
Regardless, you continue to shade/fudge the truth on the Taylor situation.
Regardless of what Hurley said, Tyshawn Taylor was quoted as stating that he knew Buzz Williams, Buzz Williams was the assistant that recruited him to Marquette and likely the only way he would stay committed to Marquette is if Buzz Williams were named head coach. You consistently ignore this while citing what Hurley said, as if what the player himself said is irrelevant.
Now, ultimately Taylor's relationship with Buzz still wasn't enough to keep him away from Kansas (big shock), but it's very clear that the decision was not a matter of him not wanting to play for Buzz Williams.
To the contrary, Taylor stated on the record that he would want to play for Buzz Williams.

This may surprise you, but most kids don't decide where they're going to play based upon who they don't want to play for.  Jae Crowder didn't choose MU because he didn't want to play for Lon Kruger. Reggie Smith didn't choose Marquette because he didn't want to play for Kevin O'Neill. Jamail Jones didn't choose Marquette because he didn't want to play for Jeff Capel and Chris Mack.
And, yes, Tyshawn Taylor didn't choose Kansas because he didn't want to play for Buzz Williams. He chose Kansas because he wanted to play for Kansas.

[Lennys Tap]

BULLCRAP

Actually you didn't read my posts properly or you wouldn't have stated it that way.  Sigh.  Talk about hypocrisy.

First, you keep comparing the situations as if they were identical.  They were not.  One school was going on probation for an untold number of years, the other school was not.  For some reason you continue to excuse this as if it has no bearing on the situation at all, when Crawford's OWN WORDS in his appeal to the NCAA show it was a huge issue.

You also fail to mention that I also said it's NORMAL for players to want to transfer when a new coach comes in. I did not blame Buzz for losing those players at MU.  I said, clearly, those guys did not want to play for Buzz Williiams.  Taylor's own coach said he had no idea who Buzz even was.  That's the reality of it.  This is NOT the reason the IU guys transferred out....they did not want to play at a school that was going on probation.  Why can't you get that through your head?

But rest assured, I did not blame Buzz for those players leaving, they just didn't want to play for Buzz Williams.  It happens.  If you can find a thread that said I blamed him for those guys leaving, please show me.  There is a wonderful search function on this site in the upper right hand corner.

You can capitalize your little "naughty" words. You can say I lack the acumen to understand your posts. You can sigh until the cows come home. (has anyone ever told you how annoyingly childish that is?) But you can't change the facts. There were all kinds of circumstances that resulted in Mbawke leaving and Taylor and Nick Williams never arriving at MU.  There were also all kinds of circumstances that resulted in Crawford leaving and Ebanks and Holloway never arriving at IU. In the former case you dismissed all those circumstances and arrived at the simplistic conclusion that "they didn't want to play for Buzz Williams". In the latter case it's all about the circumstances. It doesn't get any more hypocritical than that.

[CrimsonNCrean]

When Crean arrived Crawford, Holman, Bassett, Ellis were all still on the team...   and Ebanks and Hollaway were committed...

Bassett and Ellis were kicked off the team by Crean, and justifiably so..    Holman got in a big fight with Crean in his office and threw a flower pot at him, thus he transferred...    After all of this, Crawford was left with Tabor and the incoming recruits...  he chose to leave..  and I can't blame him. 

Now after all of this would anyone really expect Ebanks and TH to stay committed?  I wouldn't...    Not with the team decimated and NCAA penalties yet to be rendered...   

It was just a chitty time....   and then a year later the NCAA does away with the rule that screwed Kelvin S 

My school is cursed...   the curse of Bobby Knight...   

[TJ]

And another poster mentioned Christian Watford as being "close" to Creek in talent...........    

NFW....   I think Watford is terribly overrated....   He is not a great athlete, he is not qiuck, he got the ball crammed down his throat at least 3 times a game (no exaggeration), he never finished around the rim, 40% of his point were scored from the free throw line...  which he is great FT shooter     But many on the IU board are saying CW will be a "great" SF?  I do not see it at all.....   Derek Elston got half of the minutes a game that CW got 28/15 and Derek was "far" more productive than CW per minute played.   Yet Crean refused all season to give Elston minutes, and never took CW out.????

Sounds like Crean's found his next Dan Fitzgerald.  He falls in love with a guy, inexplicably gives him tons of minutes, and the production is absolutely not there.  Maybe if you guys are lucky he'll try to convert this Watford to PG like he did with Fitz, with disastrous results.

Edit: I should mention that Fitz was 6'10", had no passing skills to speak of, not very athletic, and only an ok ball handler.

[TJ]

It was just a chitty time....   and then a year later the NCAA does away with the rule that screwed Kelvin S 

Repealed or not, it was a rule when Kelvin violated it repeatedly at Oklahoma, got caught, got hired on at Indiana (seriously, what was the IU administration thinking?), continued to violate it at Indiana, and got caught again.

Stupid rule or not, that must be punished in some form.  Sadly, the NCAA only really has "authority" over the schools, so OU and IU took the flack for Kelvin's actions (although I would argue IU deserved some of it just for hiring him in the first place).

[CrimsonNCrean]

Oh I agree...   and the IU administration is run by some seriously incompetent people.  Why in the hell would you give anyone outside of Izzo, K, Self, or Roy W a 8 year contract?  And then before a game is even played they tack on 2 more???

Thad Motta should be coaching IU right now ......   but...   

[TJ]

Oh I agree...   and the IU administration is run by some seriously incompetent people.  Why in the hell would you give anyone outside of Izzo, K, Self, or Roy W a 8 year contract?  And then before a game is even played they tack on 2 more???

Thad Motta should be coaching IU right now ......   but...   

well, he had 9 years left on his deal here when he left, so I'm guessing that played into it.  Why leave 9 years stability for a 3-4-5 year deal?  Why leave 9 years @ $1.6 million for 4 years @ $2.3 million?  etc.

Really, the $14.4 million guaranteed that MU was on the hook for was probably the minimum starting point, and then IU had to make it worth his while.

[77ncaachamps]

Crean's situation will be this: He turns around the Indiana program, surprises some people, doesn't win the Big Ten title and/or doesn't make the NCAAs, then Indiana says, "Thank you for restoring our program" and shows him the door.

He's not going to be the Indiana coach for a LONG time.

He was brought in to restore credibility and prove to the NCAAs that Indiana was serious about taking care of in-house issues.
Once that's done, see ya TC.

[CrimsonNCrean]

Sounds like Crean's found his next Dan Fitzgerald.  He falls in love with a guy, inexplicably gives him tons of minutes, and the production is absolutely not there.  Maybe if you guys are lucky he'll try to convert this Watford to PG like he did with Fitz, with disastrous results.

Edit: I should mention that Fitz was 6'10", had no passing skills to speak of, not very athletic, and only an ok ball handler.

Don't get me wrong although I think he is very over rated...  I do think he will be a "good" 4 year player, I just do not see him being the all star many IU fans do.

I think C Wat may have had set the NCAA record for getting his shot blocked...       He played the 4 all season yet simply could never drive by his man let alone finish when he got there...    And many IU fans fancy him as a SF??   I don'[t see it.  He just in not that quick and athletic. 

[HoopsMalone]

I remember my friends who went to Indiana saying that Crean was going to make them forget about Bob Knight since he made Marquette.  In Crean's defense, the expectations were way too high for him at IU to start.  He was not talented enough for the hype he got.  He did nothing to appease it.  The IU program had pages and pages about Michigan State and Marquette making it sound like the Wooden days at UCLA.  I'm sure he did not object to that.

There were a lot of people who did not like Crean as a coach, but rooted for him because it was Marquette.  People also feared a Lickliter type of situation, so everyone preferred the same bet in Crean at MU.  He probably would have never been fired if he maintained a 20 win pace at MU.

But I digress.  Even the person who doubted Crean's abilities the most when he left in April 2008, would not have guessed this kind of recruiting.  If you polled this forum back then and asked if Crean would have and 4 or 5 star recruits in his 2010 class, I would be shocked if anyone said no.  This recruiting is not going to make anyone forget about Bob Knight because the guy who made Marquette into something is there now.

The book is not closed on TC at Indiana.  He will have a few more years of pacing and clapping on the sidelines.  He'll get a 4 star eventually to say yes.  But maybe the life lesson is that when you have a really good job, why risk the comfortable cash flow and and cushy set up?  It's Indiana????

[CrimsonNCrean]

I remember my friends who went to Indiana saying that Crean was going to make them forget about Bob Knight since he made Marquette.  In Crean's defense, the expectations were way too high for him at IU to start.  He was not talented enough for the hype he got.  He did nothing to appease it.  The IU program had pages and pages about Michigan State and Marquette making it sound like the Wooden days at UCLA.  I'm sure he did not object to that.

There were a lot of people who did not like Crean as a coach, but rooted for him because it was Marquette.  People also feared a Lickliter type of situation, so everyone preferred the same bet in Crean at MU.  He probably would have never been fired if he maintained a 20 win pace at MU.

But I digress.  Even the person who doubted Crean's abilities the most when he left in April 2008, would not have guessed this kind of recruiting.  If you polled this forum back then and asked if Crean would have and 4 or 5 star recruits in his 2010 class, I would be shocked if anyone said no.  This recruiting is not going to make anyone forget about Bob Knight because the guy who made Marquette into something is there now.

The book is not closed on TC at Indiana.  He will have a few more years of pacing and clapping on the sidelines.  He'll get a 4 star eventually to say yes.  But maybe the life lesson is that when you have a really good job, why risk the comfortable cash flow and and cushy set up?  It's Indiana????

well said..... 

Yes expectations were and are incredibly high....     the administration should have swallowed their pride when they hired Davis way back and hired Alford, at least they should have given him a chance....    He was hip to exactly what he would have been getting into.

[FtStJohnAssassin]

It is such a pleasure to watch Tom Crean spin in the wind down there. Nobody is more deserving. I hope he feels as crappy as each of the kids did that he ran off from his promise of a Marquette athletic scholarship. I hope he feels the shock and outrage his team did when finding about his treachery from ESPN. I hope he is accorded the same level of dignity he extended to so many coaches when he excuted his patented fly-by end-of-game handshake (I cringed for Marquette every time he did that callous, childish act.) Tom Crean is completely unworthy of our compassion. He is a vulgar, uncouth person.

[wojosdojo]

Id do anything to see Buzz take on Crean!

[TJ]

Don't get me wrong although I think he is very over rated...  I do think he will be a "good" 4 year player, I just do not see him being the all star many IU fans do.

I think C Wat may have had set the NCAA record for getting his shot blocked...       He played the 4 all season yet simply could never drive by his man let alone finish when he got there...    And many IU fans fancy him as a SF??   I don'[t see it.  He just in not that quick and athletic. 

Are you sure you're not describing Fitz?  The resemblance seems uncanny.

[Canadian Dimes]

well, he had 9 years left on his deal here when he left, so I'm guessing that played into it.  Why leave 9 years stability for a 3-4-5 year deal?  Why leave 9 years @ $1.6 million for 4 years @ $2.3 million?  etc.

Really, the $14.4 million guaranteed that MU was on the hook for was probably the minimum starting point, and then IU had to make it worth his while.

Why?....Why?   becuase its Indiana!!!!!!!!!

[Canadian Dimes]

I remember my friends who went to Indiana saying that Crean was going to make them forget about Bob Knight since he made Marquette.  In Crean's defense, the expectations were way too high for him at IU to start.  He was not talented enough for the hype he got.  He did nothing to appease it.  The IU program had pages and pages about Michigan State and Marquette making it sound like the Wooden days at UCLA.  I'm sure he did not object to that.

There were a lot of people who did not like Crean as a coach, but rooted for him because it was Marquette.  People also feared a Lickliter type of situation, so everyone preferred the same bet in Crean at MU.  He probably would have never been fired if he maintained a 20 win pace at MU.

But I digress.  Even the person who doubted Crean's abilities the most when he left in April 2008, would not have guessed this kind of recruiting.  If you polled this forum back then and asked if Crean would have and 4 or 5 star recruits in his 2010 class, I would be shocked if anyone said no.  This recruiting is not going to make anyone forget about Bob Knight because the guy who made Marquette into something is there now.

The book is not closed on TC at Indiana.  He will have a few more years of pacing and clapping on the sidelines.  He'll get a 4 star eventually to say yes.  But maybe the life lesson is that when you have a really good job, why risk the comfortable cash flow and and cushy set up?  It's Indiana????

You apparently dont remeber 75% of the players Crean signed to MU.  I beleive he truly beleives his own lies of turning Dwade from some two handed dribbling stumblebum into the superstar he is today. He then seems other players that are marginally talented and thinks becuase in his own mind he works harder than anyone else and becuase he is Tommy Naismith that these players will flourish.

Probably that and the fact that he is lacks the class or personality required to recruit with the big boys. 

Just as one might wonder how he could possibly sign the players he has for IU in 2010, did you not wonder the same things when he was out signing the 1 and 2 stars that he was signing at MU?  Niv berkowitz, Jamil Lott, Mik kinsella, James Matthews, Carlton Christian, Cubillan, Acker, Pat Hazel.  Since the 2003 Final 4 how many undeniable high major D1 players did he even sign?  The answer is 5.  The rest were not even marginal.     

[ChicosBailBonds]

You can capitalize your little "naughty" words. You can say I lack the acumen to understand your posts. You can sigh until the cows come home. (has anyone ever told you how annoyingly childish that is?) But you can't change the facts. There were all kinds of circumstances that resulted in Mbawke leaving and Taylor and Nick Williams never arriving at MU.  There were also all kinds of circumstances that resulted in Crawford leaving and Ebanks and Holloway never arriving at IU. In the former case you dismissed all those circumstances and arrived at the simplistic conclusion that "they didn't want to play for Buzz Williams". In the latter case it's all about the circumstances. It doesn't get any more hypocritical than that.

You said I blamed Buzz for them leaving....I've invited you to use the search function...Pakuni can do the same.  I have NEVER blamed Buzz for them transferring.  Yes, I have said they didn't want to play for Buzz Williams...that is a fact.  That is not the same as blaming him that they left.  It's not even the same argument.  If a kid doesn't want to play for someone then they don't want to play for someone.  It's quite simple.  Doesn't mean the new coach forced them out or made them transfer, it's the kid's decision.

This is the part that you, Pakuni, and others can't process.....IT'S THE KIDS DECISION.  If they don't want to play for a certain coach, that's the kids choice, no one is blaming the coach.  Only you psuedo Cleo Shrinks who play doctor like to go in that direction.   If a kid chooses not to play at a school because they are about to go on probation, that IS THE KIDS DECISION. 

Thanks for pointing out what is childish Lenny, you might want to do a search on yourself while you're at.  That would be a lesson in hypocrisy, something you haven't learned the definition of yet considering how you use it here, but words were always an issue for you financial types ("beg", "alum", etc)

[Pakuni]

You said I blamed Buzz for them leaving....I've invited you to use the search function...Pakuni can do the same.  I have NEVER blamed Buzz for them transferring.  Yes, I have said they didn't want to play for Buzz Williams...that is a fact.  That is not the same as blaming him that they left.  It's not even the same argument.  If a kid doesn't want to play for someone then they don't want to play for someone.  It's quite simple.  Doesn't mean the new coach forced them out or made them transfer, it's the kid's decision.

This is the part that you, Pakuni, and others can't process.....IT'S THE KIDS DECISION.  If they don't want to play for a certain coach, that's the kids choice, no one is blaming the coach.  Only you psuedo Cleo Shrinks who play doctor like to go in that direction.   If a kid chooses not to play at a school because they are about to go on probation, that IS THE KIDS DECISION. 

You're pretty good at playing semantics here.
You claim that you don't blame Buzz for Tyshawn Taylor not sticking with MU ... then say THE REASON Tyshawn Taylor isn't at MU is Buzz.
Huh?
If that's not blaming Buzz, what is it?
Besides a false statement, I mean.

Funny that you say "IT'S THE KIDS DECISION," yet frequently cite Hurley's remarks while ignoring Taylor's.
Which is it? If "IT'S THE KIDS DECISION" then Hurley's remarks are irrelevant and what matters are those of Taylor. Those remarks contradict your assertion that he didn't want to play for Buzz.

What you seem to be unable to process is that Taylor's decision was not a matter of him not wanting to play for Buzz, it was a matter of him wanting to play for Kansas. And your unwillingess to admit this is the result of your wish to blame Buzz.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Why are you guys even debating this? What are you trying to prove to each other?

Transfers happen all of the time when a new coach comes in. It's not really anybody's "fault", its just that a player may not chose to play for the new coach. Often he wasn't even recruited by the new coach, and doesn't know anything about the system or program.

That's life. It will happen again this year with SJU, Seton Hall, DePaul, etc.

It happens all of the time. Why are you guys fighting about it?

[KipsBayEagle]

When I started this thread I had no idea it would receive this many posts, last this long, and change subjects so many times.