Crean loses another recruit

[GOMU1104]

Ding ding

When teams are starting from scratch, which is what IU, Baylor and a few others have had to do, it takes YEARS to get it going.  These comparisons to Kentucky or Memphis or whatever, when they have 4 or 5 guys returning plus top 10 recruiting classes are not apples to apples.

5 Years for Scott Drew to have a winning record.

What Drew inheritied was worse than what TC did though, and it took him 5 years to get to the NCAAs.  Should TC get that much time...I dont know....

[NavinRJohnson]

Ding ding

When teams are starting from scratch, which is what IU, Baylor and a few others have had to do, it takes YEARS to get it going.  These comparisons to Kentucky or Memphis or whatever, when they have 4 or 5 guys returning plus top 10 recruiting classes are not apples to apples.

5 Years for Scott Drew to have a winning record.

I didn't realize Baylor was a Top 5 program. If you think that is a valid comparison, you're kidding yourself. The situation at Baylor was way worse, and building Baylor from the ground up, and building Indiana from the ground up are not even close to the same challenge. I have never heard anyone utter the words, "Its Baylor. Its Baylor." Who are you trying to convince?

[MU B2002]

Also I would think the level of expectations at Baylor are jsut a tad different than at Indiana.





Edit: Navin beat me to this point.

[ChicosBailBonds]

You guys are missing the point....whether it's Baylor, Indiana, UWGB, or hick state, when you start a team that has NO scholarship players on it...ZERO (Baylor and IU's situation) AND you're on NCAA probation, it takes years to rebuild.

It's funny, some of you guys comparing IU's situation to Kentucky, Memphis, etc as a valid comparison (even though it's absurd) but comparing IU to Baylor is off base???....interesting.  Even though the realities of what each team had to start over with is very close.

Oh well, rumor has it on Twitter that Crean is being replaced by Bob Knight later today.  It's on the internet.

[NavinRJohnson]

It's funny, some of you guys comparing IU's situation to Kentucky, Memphis, etc as a valid comparison (even though it's absurd) but comparing IU to Baylor is off base???....interesting.  Even though the realities of what each team had to start over with is very close.

Very close, huh? Which player at IU was murdered by another? What lies did Samspon tell during the murder investigation? Did Indiana go 20 years without an NCAA appearance? Did Indiana go 50+ years since their last Final Four appearance?

Indiana had more National Championships, than Baylor had NCAA appearances. IU had been to the NCAA tournament three consecutive years before Crean arrived. Baylor hadn't been there for 15 years before Drew arrived.

Baylor limited themselves to 7 scholarships for 2 years. Indiana took away one for one year (and put some limitations on recruit contacts).

If by "very close" you mean not at all comparable, I agree with you.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Very close in terms of returning players, probation, etc.

Completely starting from scratch.....that's what I mean by very close.


When people say, why isn't IU doing what Kentucky did or Memphis, when they had a number of returning players and a recruiting class coming in that was loaded....that is not close, nor should that comparison be made.

Very few teams have had to TOTALLY REBUILD from scratch (zero returning scholarship players...basically NO ONE ON THE TEAM)....in the last decade, the ones that have are IU, Baylor and a few others.  That was the comparison. 

[nathanziarek]

Let's agree that the coaches situation (penalties, starting rosters) are the same.

Baylor was able to turn around the program and post a winning record by year 5. Given that Indiana has a prestige, history, and recruiting base that Baylor simply can't match, can we expect that they will match or exceed this time frame?

Does compiling a 20-10-ish record in year five make Crean a success or a failure? Should he turn it around faster, considering his resources (vs those available at Baylor)?

Baylor gives a good benchmark, but I'd think IU, as an elite program, isn't looking to match their progress.

[NavinRJohnson]

Let's agree that the coaches situation (penalties, starting rosters) are the same.

Even though they aren't...

Baylor was able to turn around the program and post a winning record by year 5. Given that Indiana has a prestige, history, and recruiting base that Baylor simply can't match, can we expect that they will match or exceed this time frame?

Does compiling a 20-10-ish record in year five make Crean a success or a failure? Should he turn it around faster, considering his resources (vs those available at Baylor)?

Baylor gives a good benchmark, but I'd think IU, as an elite program, isn't looking to match their progress.

I don't think there's any question the expectations should be higher at IU. They are after all an elite program. If Crean only matches what Scott Drew did in his first 4 years, I don't see how he survives to see that 5th year. Circumstances will obviously dictate what happens, but if he cannot get I4, one of the Top 5 programs in all of college basketball to the NCAA tournament after 4 seasons, what possible reason could there be to keep him around, unless they are content to lose their status as a top 5 program?

[Tugg Speedman]

aren't we dancing around the real issue?  No one cares about IU's record in year 1 and year 2.  We all knew it was going to be bad.  The concerns are two:

1. The Big One:  He is not getting the recruits everyone expected him to get.  With IU having a clean slate, it was expected he would get a couple of top 10 classes.  Hasn't happened yet.  In fact, outside of Creek, they are not really the players that IU expected.  Yes, he has recruiting restrictions, but "it's Indiana" the school is suppose to recruit itself.

2. The Smaller One:  His team quit on him last year.  The losses are not the problem, the problem is how they lost.

[ErickJD08]

aren't we dancing around the real issue?  No one cares about IU's record in year 1 and year 2.  We all knew it was going to be bad.  The concerns are two:

1. The Big One:  He is not getting the recruits everyone expected him to get.  With IU having a clean slate, it was expected he would get a couple of top 10 classes.  Hasn't happened yet.  In fact, outside of Creek, they are not really the players that IU expected.  Yes, he has recruiting restrictions, but "it's Indiana" the school is suppose to recruit itself.

2. The Smaller One:  His team quit on him last year.  The losses are not the problem, the problem is how they lost.

Also, Big Ten is getting better as a conference.  Minnesota and Illinois should be better next year.  OSU, WI, and MSU make quality teams every year and Purdue has a great program in the making.  Not sure how IU will squeeze in with their players.

[Lennys Tap]

Very close in terms of returning players, probation, etc.

Completely starting from scratch.....that's what I mean by very close.


When people say, why isn't IU doing what Kentucky did or Memphis, when they had a number of returning players and a recruiting class coming in that was loaded....that is not close, nor should that comparison be made.

Very few teams have had to TOTALLY REBUILD from scratch (zero returning scholarship players...basically NO ONE ON THE TEAM)....in the last decade, the ones that have are IU, Baylor and a few others.  That was the comparison. 

There were some good players at IU when TC was hired (including Jamal Crawford). There was also an outstanding recruiting class in place including Ebanks (WVU) and Holloway (Xavier). None of them wanted to play for Crean.

And Pastner did not inherit a "loaded" recruiting class. As a rookie Conference USA coach he won his battles against Buzz, TC and others.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

aren't we dancing around the real issue?  No one cares about IU's record in year 1 and year 2.  We all knew it was going to be bad.  The concerns are two:

1. The Big One:  He is not getting the recruits everyone expected him to get.  With IU having a clean slate, it was expected he would get a couple of top 10 classes.  Hasn't happened yet.  In fact, outside of Creek, they are not really the players that IU expected.  Yes, he has recruiting restrictions, but "it's Indiana" the school is suppose to recruit itself.

2. The Smaller One:  His team quit on him last year.  The losses are not the problem, the problem is how they lost.

Agree 100%, and that's why the next 2 years are going to be very interesting.

TC certainly hasn't made a "splash", but he's cleaned out the program of any bad eggs (nobody is really sure how "bad" they were), and he has helped re-create some excitement with the program.

In the next 2 years, he's going to have to win, otherwise he'll get run out of town.

[Pakuni]

You guys are missing the point....whether it's Baylor, Indiana, UWGB, or hick state, when you start a team that has NO scholarship players on it...ZERO (Baylor and IU's situation) AND you're on NCAA probation, it takes years to rebuild.

It's funny, some of you guys comparing IU's situation to Kentucky, Memphis, etc as a valid comparison (even though it's absurd) but comparing IU to Baylor is off base???....interesting.  Even though the realities of what each team had to start over with is very close.

Seems the power of "It's Indiana, it's Indiana" only goes so far. Apparently it's really not much different than Baylor.

In actuality, though, the situations were not close at all.
You're actually comparing taking over a team with almost no hoops tradition that was ravaged by a major recruiting scandal and - oh yeah - the murder of a player and coverup by those within the program, to what Crean walked into at Indiana. Really?
I think it's safe to say rock bottom at Baylor is a heck of a lot lower than rock bottom at Indiana.

I do find it odd that you've been critical of Buzz over not being able to keep Tyshawn Taylor (and lamented the loss of Scott Christopherson), but give Crean a pass on Devin Ebanks, Terrell Holloway, and Jordan Crawford. Had he been able to keep those guys committed, things would be looking a little better at Indiana these days.

[MUBurrow]

And here I thought I was going to be able to stay out of this...

There were some good players at IU when TC was hired (including Jamal Crawford). There was also an outstanding recruiting class in place including Ebanks (WVU) and Holloway (Xavier). None of them wanted to play for Crean.

Honestly you think this is Crean's fault? Players transfer and decommit when coaching changes are made all the time.  Regardless what we all think of him, Sampson was a heck of a recruiter and his recruits really loved him.  Add to the coaching turnover the sanctions that were befalling the program and the gloom and doom predicted on ESPN everyday, and of course the talent with the means to go elsewhere bailed.  Any rational person in those guys' position would do the same.  I've noticed the subsequent posts about blaming Buzz for losing Taylor, etc and think that would be equally ridiculous.  I'll stay out of the coaching comparisons as best I can, but to say that Crean is somehow at fault for losing these players? Shenanigans.

[Dawson Rental]

aren't we dancing around the real issue?  No one cares about IU's record in year 1 and year 2.  We all knew it was going to be bad.  The concerns are two:

1. The Big One:  He is not getting the recruits everyone expected him to get.  With IU having a clean slate, it was expected he would get a couple of top 10 classes.  Hasn't happened yet.  In fact, outside of Creek, they are not really the players that IU expected.  Yes, he has recruiting restrictions, but "it's Indiana" the school is suppose to recruit itself.

2. The Smaller One:  His team quit on him last year.  The losses are not the problem, the problem is how they lost.

Everybody seems to only mention Creek, but Christian Watford is pretty close to him in talent.  So let's say he's got two players Indiana expected.
Also, Bawa Miniru was supposed to be a quality center, but he didn't show much his freshman year.  Maybe part of the problem leading to Crean firing his big man coach. 

[Lennys Tap]

And here I thought I was going to be able to stay out of this...

Honestly you think this is Crean's fault? Players transfer and decommit when coaching changes are made all the time.  Regardless what we all think of him, Sampson was a heck of a recruiter and his recruits really loved him.  Add to the coaching turnover the sanctions that were befalling the program and the gloom and doom predicted on ESPN everyday, and of course the talent with the means to go elsewhere bailed.  Any rational person in those guys' position would do the same.  I've noticed the subsequent posts about blaming Buzz for losing Taylor, etc and think that would be equally ridiculous.  I'll stay out of the coaching comparisons as best I can, but to say that Crean is somehow at fault for losing these players? Shenanigans.

You are correct. I don't think Crean should be blamed for losing Crawford, Ebanks and Holloway any more than Buzz should be blamed that Taylor opted for his "dream school" when the opportunity presented itself. When I said that none of those guys wanted to play for Crean I was repeating verbatim what Chicos said about Buzz and Taylor, Nick Williams, etc. Chicos wants it both ways and I was trying to point out the hypocrisy. Maybe you weren't reading the board when Chicos took this position but he did it on numerous occasions.

[HoopsMalone]

The IU fans are going to be patient with Crean.  Last year is about what was expected of Crean, good energy but not a lot of talent.  This year was not as good, but excusable with injuries and youth.

But let's face it, Crean's 2010 recruiting class is a big disappointment.  He will get them back to a competitive level next year.  Maybe even an NIT birth.  But he was unable to add anyone which is really probably not what the people at IU were expecting.  He dropped the ball big time and there is really no way around it.  They need some talent in there.

After Novak left, Crean at least got Hayward to play Novak's position.  Barro and Fitz were able to step up and play good roles with the Three Amigos in order for MU to make the tourney again.  He did not even duplicate that at  place where he should have easily been able to. The expectations are a little higher at IU too. 

I mean, the guy is handing out playing time at a top 5 school with this supposedly great facilities.  It really is not what was expected of him and there is no way around that.  Even if his failures get exaggerated a little bit on this board, the guy did not meet expectations in 2010. 

[NavinRJohnson]

I mean, the guy is handing out playing time at a top 5 school with this supposedly great facilities.  It really is not what was expected of him and there is no way around that.  Even if his failures get exaggerated a little bit on this board, the guy did not meet expectations in 2010. 

This seems to be the real point, and the reason the class of 2011 is so important to him. There are good players in his back yard that he simply has to get. Add to that the fact that Callipari made UK a national title contender in 1 year, Purdue keeps getting better, Butler is in the Final Four with a roster full of kids from IN, OSU, MSU, ND...they are surrounded by programs that are having tremendous success. I agree that I4 fans are being patient, but that patience is going to wear thin real quick if he doesn't assemble some talent and start to win some games real soon.

[mugrad99]

but Crean's recruits haven't been that bad:

Jordan Hulls (Mr. Basketball)
Matt Roth
Mo Creek
Christian Watford
Derek Elston

Throw in Verdel Jones, and a few of this year's recruits, and that is a solid rotation.

I am too lazy to look it up, but what were Baylor's current players (Dunn, Carty, et al) ranked coming out of high school? Seems like Drew was able to develop the talent. That is what Crean needs to do.

[HoopsMalone]

That 09 class was great for Crean.  But I would have never guessed he would lay an egg like he did this year.

Maybe he will develop them, but the expectations when he signed were to have top-rated recruits every year.  Not just three stars.

I don't think Indiana wants to set their bar at Baylor's recruiting.  Though have had multiple 4-star players commit.

[CrimsonNCrean]

I didn't realize Baylor was a Top 5 program. If you think that is a valid comparison, you're kidding yourself. The situation at Baylor was way worse, and building Baylor from the ground up, and building Indiana from the ground up are not even close to the same challenge. I have never heard anyone utter the words, "Its Baylor. Its Baylor." Who are you trying to convince?

Exactly, I go nuts when apologists at the IU board start the Baylor comparisons....  Baylor has not been relevant since 1950!

Indiana, as hard as they were hit, should be recruiting itself right now..  so far they are not.  TC has sat in Kyrie Irving's living room, Jelan Kendrick's living room, Josh Selby's living room and so many other big time players....   none want to come to Bloomington where playing time is plentiful???   It is very depressing.

Crean is not a good coach, that is obvious, so he has got to land talent....

And another poster mentioned Christian Watford as being "close" to Creek in talent...........   

NFW....   I think Watford is terribly overrated....   He is not a great athlete, he is not qiuck, he got the ball crammed down his throat at least 3 times a game (no exaggeration), he never finished around the rim, 40% of his point were scored from the free throw line...  which he is great FT shooter      But many on the IU board are saying CW will be a "great" SF?  I do not see it at all.....   Derek Elston got half of the minutes a game that CW got 28/15 and Derek was "far" more productive than CW per minute played.   Yet Crean refused all season to give Elston minutes, and never took CW out.????

Tom Crean offered David Williams a schollie on the spot after a workout last year....  a 1 star forward....  LOL   Which IU later rescinded after Williams fizzed on the AAU circuit. 

UGHHHHHHHHHH 

Crean is great at PR.....   His teams played hard last season (not this season), He is horrible at coaching, he can't recruit... so far, .......   and worst of all I think he is a horrible evaluator of talent.   I am just totally unimpressed with him...

He has parlayed a relationship with D Wade into a lot of cheez....
But I guess it is nothing a few 5 star recruits can't cure.    

IU has a state of the art practice facility opening up any day now...  lets see if this helps?

It has been nothing but excuses at IU so far, and I am sick of it....

[NersEllenson]

Exactly, I go nuts when apologists at the IU board start the Baylor comparisons....  Baylor has not been relevant since 1950!

Indiana, as hard as they were hit, should be recruiting itself right now..  so far they are not.  TC has sat in Kyrie Irving's living room, Jelan Kendrick's living room, Josh Selby's living room and so many other big time players....   none want to come to Bloomington where playing time is plentiful???   It is very depressing.

Crean is not a good coach, that is obvious, so he has got to land talent....

And another poster mentioned Christian Watford as being "close" to Creek in talent...........   

NFW....   I think Watford is terribly overrated....   He is not a great athlete, he is not qiuck, he got the ball crammed down his throat at least 3 times a game (no exaggeration), he never finished around the rim, 40% of his point were scored from the free throw line...  which he is great FT shooter      But many on the IU board are saying CW will be a "great" SF?  I do not see it at all.....   Derek Elston got half of the minutes a game that CW got 28/15 and Derek was "far" more productive than CW per minute played.   Yet Crean refused all season to give Elston minutes, and never took CW out.????

Tom Crean offered David Williams a schollie on the spot after a workout last year....  a 1 star forward....  LOL   Which IU later rescinded after Williams fizzed on the AAU circuit. 

UGHHHHHHHHHH 

Crean is great at PR.....   His teams played hard last season (not this season), He is horrible at coaching, he can't recruit... so far, .......   and worst of all I think he is a horrible evaluator of talent.   I am just totally unimpressed with him...

He has parlayed a relationship with D Wade into a lot of cheez....
But I guess it is nothing a few 5 star recruits can't cure.    

IU has a state of the art practice facility opening up any day now...  lets see if this helps?

It has been nothing but excuses at IU so far, and I am sick of it....

When IU raided Marquette for a head coach, it picked the wrong one..Buzz Williams would have been a much better choice..but obviously nobody could have predicted that at the time IU came calling

[CrimsonNCrean]

When IU raided Marquette for a head coach, it picked the wrong one..Buzz Williams would have been a much better choice..but obviously nobody could have predicted that at the time IU came calling

I agree...  Buzz did a fantastic job this and last season....   I think Buzz's success is part of the reason Crean kicked out those "pro" MU tweets a couple of weeks ago....   To remind everyone how "important" he thinks he really is....

He has got to step it up in a big way, because he is slowly getting exposed.  But I am fearful of a ten year run of very average BB .....   

[HoopsMalone]

Billy G had Buzz and then went to a top 5 program.  He did not meet expectations.

Tom Crean had Buzz and then went to a top 5 program.  He has probably about met expectations, but pressure is on.

[oldwarrior81]

I am too lazy to look it up, but what were Baylor's current players (Dunn, Carty, et al) ranked coming out of high school? Seems like Drew was able to develop the talent. That is what Crean needs to do.

looking at Baylor's roster it looks like they had 6 players that were ranked in the top 20 at their postition coming out of high school.  That's some decent talent.
Dunn, the leading scorer at about 20 a game was the only 5-star recruit.

Add in Perry Jones (#2-C) coming in the 2010 class and IMO that appears to be well above what Indiana is bringing in.