MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: mdubs on June 08, 2009, 03:57:57 PM
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With Bob Dukiet passing, I started to think about players from my era at MU; namely, Trevor Powell. He was the absolute glue that held the Warriors together. MU was a mess---Candelino, Luerke, Nethen, Pops Sims (circa 1987), Flory, Hayes, Baldwin, Anglavar, Posey, Grosse. Most were good enough people, but in no way were they D1 athletes. Thank God for Tony Smith. Hayes was playing at the rec and he became a real part of the team. If that happened today, we would storm the AL and ask for Buzz’s head on a platter. Granted, you may get lucky and run across a Dave Winfield, but the rec was part of MU’s recruiting strategy. OK, a joke, but we did get at least 2 players at the rec who played significant minutes in the late 80s.
I know Powell went on the play in France. Did he come back to Milwaukee? How come he never gets any love from the current regime?
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saw john wolf at an aau tourney a few weeks ago. Talk about sucking that talent back then was mid major at best heck i remeber one year we got swept by Butler back when getting swept by Butler was atrue embarrasment took our share of lumps from Evansville too. that is why i rate oneill significantly hight than Crean. Cream could never have done what KO did. a true resurrection of almost biblical proportions ...Crean was Deanish in my book yet with more pomp and DWAde.
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Trevor came back to finish his degree around 05-06. Not sure of the exact range, or if he did end up finishing, but I had a Comm. class with him in the fall of 2005.
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I would kill for Mark Anglavar's shot on last years team. Ty Baldwin not athletic?
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Rod Grosse was a highly rated recruit that did not improve. That is the wild card with all recruits.
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From what I remember, Hayes either had a scholarship to play ball somewhere (I think it was DII, or a low DI) but choose to attend MU. He hadn't planned on playing basketball, but like you said was "recruit" from the Rec Center. I know back in the late 80's the basketball team used to show up at the Rec Center to play "pick-up" games before the season started, Hayes was one of the players that always got picked to be part of those games because of his ability.
On another note, I remember distinctly playing in one of those "pick-up" games where I foolishly tried to take a charge from Jon Leurk who had decided after passing mid-court that he was going to dunk the ball. Ouch!
And, you are correct, Trevor held the team together from his sophomore season on. I swear I've never seen so many fade away jumpers in my life from one player, but he got it done. Anglavar doesn't get much love, but I can tell you first hand other teams hated him because he was pretty damn good from deep.
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anglavar was a good shooter for sure but did he have any handles? did he have D1 athleticism name a C-USa or BE 2 guard over the last 20 years that he could have stayed in front of...additinally he weifghed maybe 175?
Trevor had a sweet little baseline jumper but if you will remeber did nothing his senior year after the drive draw and dish assists from Tony Smith were no longer there.
Luerck and Wolf were NAIA talents and were at there best drinking at OD's.
Also grosee was never higly recruited ...time clouds the memory...he was a bad bad player that got over recruited by Mu because of his size again maybe 190 lbs.
Ty Baldwin was abig time player and was by far my favorite player of that time. we were half way decent the year we had ty, Trvor and tony and played very well against alot of good teams were had a big time independent schedule bak then but always seemed to run out of gas and lose it at the end. it was 3 versus 12 with a few 3 balls yet nothing else from anglavar
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And we would have beaten UW at home that year had Ty not stepped over the timeline. He was a good ball player. Had a nice game against Penn State in the NIT. Charles Luter was my favorite player....skinniest D1 player ever! But before the knee injury, that dude could get up.
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The thing I remember most about Trevor was that a friend of mine used to call him Travel Foul. I don't remember if that was truly deserved.
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Majerus recruited Rod Grosse and I think gave his high school buddy a full scholarship to be team manager. :'(
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Charles Luter had a ton of talent. Of all the guys mentioned I think he had the most upside but injury killed his chances.
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thanks for reminding me of the backcourt violation against UW absolutely heartbreaking ...that and the blocking foul called aginst Pieper in the Nit final were two absolute heartbreakers.
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saw john wolf at an aau tourney a few weeks ago. Talk about sucking that talent back then was mid major at best heck i remeber one year we got swept by Butler back when getting swept by Butler was atrue embarrasment took our share of lumps from Evansville too. that is why i rate oneill significantly hight than Crean. Cream could never have done what KO did. a true resurrection of almost biblical proportions ...Crean was Deanish in my book yet with more pomp and DWAde.
I think you're forgetting that it was O'Neill's team that got swept by Butler (his 2nd season, 90-91).
Outside of being a better recruiter, I don't see his coaching was significantly better than Dukiet.
O'Neill's 2nd season of 11-18 was almost exactly the same as Bob Dukiet's 2nd season of 10-18. And don't forget--with Key, McIlvaine, and Logtermann as frosh, Curry as a 3rd year Soph and Trevor Powell as a senior that year--O'Neill's talent level was SIGNIFICANTLY better. THAT'S the team that was swept by Butler. Not Dukiet's holdovers.
You claim that Marquette had a "true resurrection," however one has to wonder what shape MU was truly in for O'Neill to believe that "greener pastures" consisted of a 5-22 Never-Was team buried in last place in the SEC. The mere fact that O'Neil left MU for Tennessee sent a MAJOR message about MU basketball--and it wasn't "MU is Back". Not to mention that O'Neill wasn't just content to leave--he publicly dissed MU on the way out.
Hell, O'Neill didn't resurrect MU--he damn near cemented its reputation as Stepping-Stone U!
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O'Neil left due to money, period. What is it that he said? That the contract he signed with MU wasn't worth wiping his (blank) with. After leading MU to success, he wanted a raise, MU wasn't ready yet.
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thanks for reminding me of the backcourt violation against UW absolutely heartbreaking ...that and the blocking foul called aginst Pieper in the Nit final were two absolute heartbreakers.
Especially for Ty Baldwin. We talked about that and he was really, really bummed out.
I imagine Lazar felt the same disappointment (x10) after the Missouri game.
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I think you're forgetting that it was O'Neill's team that got swept by Butler (his 2nd season, 90-91).
Outside of being a better recruiter, I don't see his coaching was significantly better than Dukiet.
O'Neill's 2nd season of 11-18 was almost exactly the same as Bob Dukiet's 2nd season of 10-18. And don't forget--with Key, McIlvaine, and Logtermann as frosh, Curry as a 3rd year Soph and Trevor Powell as a senior that year--O'Neill's talent level was SIGNIFICANTLY better. THAT'S the team that was swept by Butler. Not Dukiet's holdovers.
You claim that Marquette had a "true resurrection," however one has to wonder what shape MU was truly in for O'Neill to believe that "greener pastures" consisted of a 5-22 Never-Was team buried in last place in the SEC. The mere fact that O'Neil left MU for Tennessee sent a MAJOR message about MU basketball--and it wasn't "MU is Back". Not to mention that O'Neill wasn't just content to leave--he publicly dissed MU on the way out.
Hell, O'Neill didn't resurrect MU--he damn near cemented its reputation as Stepping-Stone U!
MU84
i have to hand it to you just when you have people thinking you could not be any dumber you rip off a new beauty. Wow!! reread your post and then say it to any sane MU fan and like your recruiting theory they will laugh in your face.
Not only was Oneill a good coach but he realized what all truly good coaches KNOW...and that is that 95% (and I maybe putting the number too low) of being a good coach is recruiting the best available players.
as afar as technical coaching Mike deane was by far the best tactician that Mu has had in the last 30 years...with no recruiting look where that got him.
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MU84
i have to hand it to you just when you have people thinking you could not be any dumber you rip off a new beauty. Wow!! reread your post and then say it to any sane MU fan and like your recruiting theory they will laugh in your face.
Not only was Oneill a good coach but he realized what all truly good coaches KNOW...and that is that 95% (and I maybe putting the number too low) of being a good coach is recruiting the best available players.
as afar as technical coaching Mike deane was by far the best tactician that Mu has had in the last 30 years...with no recruiting look where that got him.
The only person ripping off beauties is your inexplicable love for O'Neill. Your BFF O'Neill came damn close to successfully relegating MU to permanent mid-major status.
First, he doesn't do any rebuilding of recruiting pipelines or develop long-standing relationships with HS coaches or AAU teams--he simply reloads, mostly in the first two years, then is a recruiting nomad, moving from Wisconsin, on to Illinois, digging up whatever he can find in Georgia or Canada or East Jabip, Michigan.
Then, he leaves, without leaving even a hint of a qualified heir apparent and certainly no strongly established recruiting pipeline, and giving the nation the impression that MU must be pretty pathetic if a never-was like Tennessee looks better.
Second, knowing that he left no strong recruiting pipeline in place, O'Neill recommends that we hire his buddy Deane--the worst recruiter in MU history. At worst, he intentionally recommended a poor recruiter ensure that his success looks like a fluke that cant' be recreated. At best, he's an idiot for recommending such a poor recruiter to come into a job where there was no strong recruiting base established, and no strong ties to any talent hotbed.
Third, for all your blather about Crean being a dick, O'Neill was no better--whether it was the inability to have a child sit within earshot to his tendency to treat almus like crap at banquets and events to his ripping MU fans about their "unrealistic expectations" or stupid rivalries with Notre Dame and Wisconsin. And this was his public face! All of Crean's supposed sins are in private to people who actually deserve it.
Finally, he sends the message through his actions that MU is nothing but a stepping stone to him, AND he publicly rips MU and its fans AFTER HE LEFT!!! MU did nothing to mistreat him, and gave him a golden opportunity to have a great career. What thanks did he give us?
Did he have the class to thank MU and it's fans for five great years? No.
Did he have the common sense just to shut up and move on Hell no!
Instead, his new job secure and the Illinois/Wisconsin state line safely in his rear view mirror, he sends Marquette and Milwaukee a big F-You as his parting gift. Again, contrast that with your hated Crean--is there a single quote from Crean ripping MU? Complaining about our fans expectations?
I guess O'Neill couldn't really sell "It's Tennessee, It's Tennessee" to anyone, so he had to rip on MU and make us look bad in order to make taking that job look better.
Only years later, after his career and marriage fall apart, does he come grovelling back--"oh, I didn't know how good I had it"-- looking for saps like you, who lick it up like a kid eating an ice cream cone.
As I said above, I'll give him props for recruiting--he was at least equal to Crean in that regard. But otherwise, he isn't the saint you make him out to be. Average coach, terrible demeanor, and actually tried to knock MU down a notch as he left. Hardly deserving of the praise you slobber all over him.
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Third, for all your blather about Crean being a dick, O'Neill was no better--whether it was the inability to have a child sit within earshot to his tendency to treat almus like crap at banquets and events to his ripping MU fans about their "unrealistic expectations" or stupid rivalries with Notre Dame and Wisconsin. And this was his public face! All of Crean's supposed sins are in private to people who actually deserve it.
I'll take the middle ground on this one. Overall, I think O'Neill did a pretty nice job for Marquette and helped get us started on the road back to respectability. But, I only had one in-person experience with O'Neill (at a MU club lunch or some similar)...and he really was a jerk to me.
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Gonna give a big +1 to MU84 here.
I also think it speaks volumes that Crean's friends from here (Cords and the like) support him in his new gig. You never saw that with O'Neill. Speaks volumes.
And I'm not saying Crean was a saint. Most college coaches at any level that I have run across are pretty dickish. But I think it is ridiculous to say that O'Neill did a better job with the program than Crean.
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what our unmedicated poster (marquette84) actually said was that Dukiet was as good as Oneill.
That was the stupidity that i referred to....additionally in your diatribe about Oneill leaving no recruiting trail and being all over the place....ahh what legacy did your revered Crean leave with us? and Oneill made MU look like a stepping stone...and Crean did not?.
Please put down the pipe, the argument of whether Oneill or Crean was better is like arguing politics, there are alot of great points on both sides. However for Marquette 84 to argue Dukiet was better than Oneill is right out of his recruiting theory....retarded.
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what our unmedicated poster (marquette84) actually said was that Dukiet was as good as Oneill.
That was the stupidity that i referred to....additionally in your diatribe about Oneill leaving no recruiting trail and being all over the place....ahh what legacy did your revered Crean leave with us? and Oneill made MU look like a stepping stone...and Crean did not?.
Well, one could at least argue that jumping to Indiana is a lot more prestigious than jumping to Tennessee.
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KO took us from damn near division 2 level to the sweet 16. For that I will always hold him in high regard. On a personal level I would take his honesty (sometimes brutally honest and maybe a little too profane) over Mr disingenous. That being said, although I never liked Crean I do appreciate what he did for the program.
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KO took us from damn near division 2 level to the sweet 16. For that I will always hold him in high regard. On a personal level I would take his honesty (sometimes brutally honest and maybe a little too profane) over Mr disingenous. That being said, although I never liked Crean I do appreciate what he did for the program.
+1
O'Neil didn't like his contract and MU wouldn't give him an extension, so he let it run it's course, then left. Better then being fleeced every April.
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+1
O'Neil didn't like his contract and MU wouldn't give him an extension, so he let it run it's course, then left. Better then being fleeced every April.
Was oneil's contract really up? Or did he just leave because his contract was extended/raised? I assume he was still actually under contract when he left.
Very few coaches leave a school "gracefully", so I don't really hold that against him... just want to be clear about it.
Al's situation (for example) worked out amazingly well... but had they lost in the 1st round I'm certain some people would have claimed that his early retirement announcement was a distraction to the team and ripped him for it.
What's my point? It's extremely rare and very difficult for a coach to truly leave on good terms. There is always a wound and some required healing time.
Oneil's departure has healed, so people cut him some slack and remember him fondly. Crean's situation is different, but 10 years from now the wounds will have healed and people will probably remember him with (mostly) fond memories.
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There is no way people will remember Crean fondly. The difference between he and O'Neill - as somebody correctly pointed out - was that KO wasn't an absolute phony. He was who he was. I actually believe even those who back Crean would secretly acknowledge he remains a loathsome person. O'Neill might have been prickly, but he was funny as hell. Crean has none of that. He's just a jerk. Even the employees at the Bradley Center hated him AND Joanie. I have first hand knowledge of that. And we've heard about basketball camp. THere were hundreds of MU alums in attendance!
I also 100 percent believe that SJS is either a family member, former neighbor or some other associate waging a pathetic rehabilitation campaign which is actually causing more harm than good.
Literally, the only chance Crean has at rehabbing his image within the next 10 years -- if ever -- is if there was a coordinated movement by former players. And I don't believe that's going to happen. We will find out in 2013, that's for sure. I hope he shows his face at a reunion where he will absolutely get booed out of the building.
By the way, there are many guys who transferred from Marquette who would be welcomed with open arms. So does Majerus, who quit. I would wager Mike Deane would get a rousing ovation from MU faithful.
It's not MU fans. It's Crean.
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Once again you overestimate how popular the hatred of Crean is. The common fan loved the guy and for the most part still does because of what the team did on the court.
They don't read the message boards, they don't talk to players/AD staff, they don't know about the camp incident or housecreaning or Diener's injury...and quite honestly they don't give a crap about any of that. They see a guy that seemed like a nice person on TV and delivered a winning product, so they like him and not much is going to change that. Even those bitter about him leaving with forgive him rather easily if Buzz keeps winning.
There's just never been and likely never will be this widespread hatred of the man like you hope for.
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Second, knowing that he left no strong recruiting pipeline in place, O'Neill recommends that we hire his buddy Deane--the worst recruiter in MU history. At worst, he intentionally recommended a poor recruiter ensure that his success looks like a fluke that cant' be recreated. At best, he's an idiot for recommending such a poor recruiter to come into a job where there was no strong recruiting base established, and no strong ties to any talent hotbed.
Actually KO told Cords he would be an absolute idiot to not get in his car immediately and drive to Green Bay to hire Dick Bennett. And knowing Kevin he probably said it a little more colorful language.
Third, for all your blather about Crean being a dick, O'Neill was no better--whether it was the inability to have a child sit within earshot to his tendency to treat almus like crap at banquets and events to his ripping MU fans about their "unrealistic expectations" or stupid rivalries with Notre Dame and Wisconsin. And this was his public face! All of Crean's supposed sins are in private to people who actually deserve it.
Both were a-holes, however KO knew he was an a-hole while TC thought he was Jesus Christ. It makes a difference.
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Was oneil's contract really up? Or did he just leave because his contract was extended/raised? I assume he was still actually under contract when he left.
Like most coaches, I believe KO signed a 5 year deal to come to MU, and never signed a contract extension, or a new contract. He was at MU for 5 years, from 89-94. The math is pretty simple.
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Once again you overestimate how popular the hatred of Crean is. The common fan loved the guy and for the most part still does because of what the team did on the court.
They don't read the message boards, they don't talk to players/AD staff, they don't know about the camp incident or housecreaning or Diener's injury...and quite honestly they don't give a crap about any of that. They see a guy that seemed like a nice person on TV and delivered a winning product, so they like him and not much is going to change that. Even those bitter about him leaving with forgive him rather easily if Buzz keeps winning.
There's just never been and likely never will be this widespread hatred of the man like you hope for.
Sorry bma -- you seem to be "in the know" when it comes to recruiting, etc. but that hardly makes you the common fan. I am the common fan. I speak to common fans, none of whom come on message boards. I have yet to hear anybody say "I love that guy." Everybody thought he was a phony prick.
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housecreaning?
I think I missed that one--anyone care to recap for me?
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There is no way people will remember Crean fondly. The difference between he and O'Neill - as somebody correctly pointed out - was that KO wasn't an absolute phony. He was who he was. I actually believe even those who back Crean would secretly acknowledge he remains a loathsome person. O'Neill might have been prickly, but he was funny as hell. Crean has none of that. He's just a jerk. Even the employees at the Bradley Center hated him AND Joanie. I have first hand knowledge of that. And we've heard about basketball camp. THere were hundreds of MU alums in attendance!
I also 100 percent believe that SJS is either a family member, former neighbor or some other associate waging a pathetic rehabilitation campaign which is actually causing more harm than good.
Literally, the only chance Crean has at rehabbing his image within the next 10 years -- if ever -- is if there was a coordinated movement by former players. And I don't believe that's going to happen. We will find out in 2013, that's for sure. I hope he shows his face at a reunion where he will absolutely get booed out of the building.
By the way, there are many guys who transferred from Marquette who would be welcomed with open arms. So does Majerus, who quit. I would wager Mike Deane would get a rousing ovation from MU faithful.
It's not MU fans. It's Crean.
Ehhh (shrug)... I don't agree with you at all.
But, that's ok, we can agree to disagree, it's all just speculation anyways.
As far as the SJS thing... I think you should quit that stuff... The guy is just posting his opinions and theories. If you hate his writing so much, just ignore it. If you think he's factually wrong, dispute it with evidence. I don't think posting that he is a member of the "Crean Clan" is really doing anything.
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Sorry bma -- you seem to be "in the know" when it comes to recruiting, etc. but that hardly makes you the common fan. I am the common fan. I speak to common fans, none of whom come on message boards. I have yet to hear anybody say "I love that guy." Everybody thought he was a phony prick.
No, everybody didn't think he was a phony prick. Most people don't know enough to even think he was phony. I know plenty of people who still want him as the coach to this day and continue to support him at IU. Hell I know people that stopped giving money to the Blue and Gold fund because they felt the university didn't do enough to keep Crean.
Your opinion of what people think about him is skewed by your hatred of him. Most people don't know the bad side of him at all.
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Well, I have my opinion and it was shared by pretty much anybody who saw him speak at the Union League Club in Chicago, every person I attended MU with who has an interest in the BB team, my in-laws, friends of family members that attended MU in years other than myself and nearly everybody in my section at games.
And anybody who doesn't donate to the B&G Fund because Crean is gone is a horse's ass. It's reason to up your donation.
And to 2002 -- SJS was his former screen name. What's wrong with using that? And I do think he's somehow assocated with Crean. In fact, he has to be. I'm just being honest. Other posters have asked me in PMs about it. I don't know for a fact, but I'm 99 percent positive he is.
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I, for one, will never miss the phony prick and I've been consistent for the past 6 years concerning the now departed. In fact, I thank IU every day for getting him away from Marquette University. I would have paid Sampson's phone bill if it meant Crean would have left us earlier.
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Well, I have my opinion and it was shared by pretty much anybody who saw him speak at the Union League Club in Chicago, every person I attended MU with who has an interest in the BB team, my in-laws, friends of family members that attended MU in years other than myself and nearly everybody in my section at games.
And anybody who doesn't donate to the B&G Fund because Crean is gone is a horse's ass. It's reason to up your donation.
And to 2002 -- SJS was his former screen name. What's wrong with using that? And I do think he's somehow assocated with Crean. In fact, he has to be. I'm just being honest. Other posters have asked me in PMs about it. I don't know for a fact, but I'm 99 percent positive he is.
I wasn't talking about the screenname stuff... that's fine. I just think the accusations and minor witch-hunt to prove that he somehow is Joanie Crean is tiresome. But, whatever, I guess that's between you and him.
I didn't see Tom Crean at the Union League club, nor did I take a straw poll like you did. I'm just trying to illustrate that history often portrays people in a fonder light that they were originally thought of.
I bet you can't find a single soul around now who would dare say a bad word about McGuire. However, back in the day, I bet there were some detractors that didn't like him or his style. Same for Oneil. Same for Rick.
Wounds heal. People remember the highs and forget some of the lows.
I know you disagree, and that's cool. You have your well thought out, rational opinions. I have mine.
*Please note: I'm not comparing Crean to Al (don't go down that path), I'm just using Al for a historical perspective on how people are remembered more fondly years later.
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Referencing Joanie is clearly an ugly joke -- extremely ugly, almost mannish in nature -- but I do believe he's gone so far beyond defense of Crean's record that he can't hide that there's a connection somewhere. It's just undeniable.
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And to 2002 -- SJS was his former screen name. What's wrong with using that? And I do think he's somehow assocated with Crean. In fact, he has to be. I'm just being honest. Other posters have asked me in PMs about it. I don't know for a fact, but I'm 99 percent positive he is.
You're incorrect, he isn't associated with Crean at all.
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I'll take the middle ground on this one. Overall, I think O'Neill did a pretty nice job for Marquette and helped get us started on the road back to respectability. But, I only had one in-person experience with O'Neill (at a MU club lunch or some similar)...and he really was a jerk to me.
Much of what 84 says is dead on. KO did a good job in keeping us relevant by recruiting Mac, Key, Logterman and Miller. But he publiclly pissed on MU constantly, he left MU for Tennessee (you guys that are pissed at Crean for leaving for one of the top 5 programs of ALL-TIME when KO left for a FOOTBALL school that is known secondly for HOOPs....WOMEN'S HOOPS!!!!!). His antics at the bars in town, how he treated his marriage, etc were bad news (those in the know can confirm....totally unacceptable as a public figure and representative of MU...TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE).
I'm glad he kept us relevant during his 5 year stint, he worked his butt off, but there is a REASON why he has lasted only a few years at every stop since MU. That is not by coincidence, but rather because of his actions. Not a surprise whatsoever that Hayward is drawn to him like a siren song.
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2002 I do not disagree with you on the whole "time heals wounds" in fact I absolutely agree with you.
but I disagree that the reason people "like" Oneill is becuase it hase been 15 years. No, I think most people simply liked Oneill, was he a jack ass of course but you knew what you were getting. i sat 1 row behind the bench a number of times with small children and marvelled at his ability to fit that many F words into one sentence. He was boorish and edgy but he got it done and he was what he was. I think people might not invite him to their daughters confirmation but they respected what he was and what he accomplished and that he was who he was.
Crean on the other hand made excuses for everything , was prone to go on witch hunts after people and pulled some of the most amazing things i have ever witnessed. he is aman of very low character and an inferiority complex to match anything I have ever seen. ten years does not change that and i agree with PRN most people even casually associated with the team, ie the causal fan did not like the guy, they respected 5 tourneys in 9 years with about as much respect it deserves. they also saw the annual flameouts, the Western Michigan gmaes etc. I talk with hundreds of MU fans and they universally disliked him long before last April. Even more telling is to talk to people from ND, Louisville, Cincy, UW that all dislike him for a reason. they respect GTIII, they respect Pitiono, they respect BREy, or Bo....they despise Crean as a prick.
My wife is an MU fan goes to many games watches them on TV etc. But is the pure casual fan has no problems going to the bars and having fun with friends after a Reece Gaines 3 beats MU while I am distraught. etc. She is the casual fan She had no problems with Oneill was happy Mu was being successful and took his language as "that is what coaches do". She hated Crean...Womens intuition, thought he was an ugly snake, the basketball camp put her over the top from loathing to sheer disrespect, She meets Buzz 2 weeks into the job when he comes up to her and introduces himself, 15 minutes later after their 1 on 1 conversation comes over to me and "syas I really like him". and it aint cause Buzz charmed her 3 out of 4 times after a convo like that with someone she will say that person is a loser. Womens intuition.
Oneill will be remebered as a surly winner in 10 20 50 years.
Crean will be remebered as a successful self promoter and a zero character prick of a person 10 20 50 years later
they both left for other jobs
Buzz will be remebered as a man of great character...success TBD...and he will most likely leave and work somewhere else at some point.
But let us not forget Marquette 84 actually stated that Dukiet was abetter coach than Oneill. that plus the recruiting theory calls for a straight jacket.
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KO took us from damn near division 2 level to the sweet 16. For that I will always hold him in high regard. On a personal level I would take his honesty (sometimes brutally honest and maybe a little too profane) over Mr disingenous. That being said, although I never liked Crean I do appreciate what he did for the program.
We were bad, but not that bad. Let's also not forget that Wisconsin-Madison was an absolute freaking JOKE during that time....54 straight years of no NCAA apperances. We were the only program in the state by and large, that helped tremendously in getting MacIlvaine, Key and Logtermann. Those times have changed considerably by the time Deane and Crean came in. We were no longer a monopoly in basketball.
O'Neill did some nice things for the program, he also was a brutal representative off the court in many ways. There's a reason why KO never made it to a It's Indiana, It's Indiana destination but instead at Tennessee, Northwestern and a one year cluster screw at Arizona (as well as his hopping from one NBA destination to another). He doesn't get that little thing called BEHAVIOUR in public and how to treat people appropriately.
For all the people that supposedly hate Crean, I find it amazing how he keeps coming up so positively in the press from Doc Rivers to Doug Melvin to fill in your choice of names. Crean is an SOB like most of them, but I never saw that kind of love or respect for KO from other folks in the industry and outside of it. In fact, the Crean detractors almost uniformly come from a group of about 50 people of which 60% of them are on this board.
The vast number of Milwaukee fans will remember him for taking a school that had ONE (ONE!!!!) Sweet 16 apperance in 25 years to a NCAA Final Four. They will remember him bringing in NBA players Dwyane Wade, Steve Novak, Travis Diener and potential NBA players in Wesley Matthews, Jerel McNeal, Dominic James and Lazar Hayward. They will remember sold out games, going to the Big East, going to the NCAAs consistently, no NCAA infraction issues, no police blotter issues, damn near perfect graduation rates. That's what most will remember. Yeah, he could be a prick, but he didn't crap on the university (KO did), he wasn't publicly cheating on his wife with MU coeds, he wasn't out publicly drunk constantly at various Milwaukee bars for all to see. But yes, he was a self promoter....damn, what a sin. ::)
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Referencing Joanie is clearly an ugly joke -- extremely ugly, almost mannish in nature -- but I do believe he's gone so far beyond defense of Crean's record that he can't hide that there's a connection somewhere. It's just undeniable.
jim harbaugh with tits
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Oneill will be remebered as a surly winner in 10 20 50 years.
Crean will be remebered as a successful self promoter and a zero character prick of a person 10 20 50 years later
I'm just not so sure about that.
I know there are some people that hate Crean as much as you do, but I'm not sure that it's the majority like you think. However, to be fair, I don't have any statistics or surveys to go off of, I'm just going off my own opinion of the MU fanbase. I guess you could be right, but I just don't think so.
We're both just stating opinions, so I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
As far as the Jim harbaugh comment in this thread... that's weaksauce. We're just stating opinions around here (about a coaches legacy)... no need to post things about a former coach's wife.
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I'm just not so sure about that.
I know there are some people that hate Crean as much as you do, but I'm not sure that it's the majority like you think. However, to be fair, I don't have any statistics or surveys to go off of, I'm just going off my own opinion of the MU fanbase. I guess you could be right, but I just don't think so.
We're both just stating opinions, so I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
As far as the Jim harbaugh comment in this thread... that's weaksauce. We're just stating opinions around here (about a coaches legacy)... no need to post things about a former coach's wife.
Did Hayward really say this? Good grief. I don't care how much you hate Crean, he is factually, statistically, whatever criteria you want to use....THE SECOND MOST SUCCESSFULL COACH IN MARQUETTE UNIVERSITY HISTORY.
It's simple.
If he's going to make an asinine statement like O'Neill will surely be remembered as a winner after 5 years at the helm, two NCAAs, one Sweet 16, and also one of the worst seasons in MU history (10-18 record) then anyone with half a brain (that excludes Hayward) would have to conclude that someone that stuck around for 9 years, went to 5 NCAAs (and in absentia a 6th NCAA team that he left Buzz this past season), went to a Final Four and didn't crap on the university at every turn will also be remembered as a winner. Only a adolescent would think otherwise.
People wonder why some folks on this board defend Crean. It's not so much a matter of defending Crean as it is pushing back on the complete fantasy world some folks live in. Crean was not liked by all and arrogant, but to say he wasn't successful or a winner defies every aspect as sports fans we use to determine success at a place like Marquette. It's beyond silly some of the remarks.
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could be if as your screen name implies you are a 2002 grad then maybe your youth or maybe lack of context as far as other Mu coaches tends for you to look upon him more favorably. Maybe the recent Mu grads have a better opinion of him. All i know is i have dozens and dozens of MU grads that I speak to from accross the country and to a person they have dtested the guy for long before 4/2008. You may even recall the poll in the JS onlineform a few dyas after he left "glad or sad" it was about at 50/50. pretty telling...that half the people were glad he was gone for a guy that supposedly did so much ... I think what hurt his persona to alot of the causla fans is he acted and promoted himself like he was god's gift to the game. Yet his flame outs, poor bench coaching , annual contract renegotiotions after flirting with other jobs, and avergae recruiting was obvious to even the most casual observer. MAny casual fans were not aware of his true personality and lack of character but they soured on the selling of himself as a Superstar when his record reflected more of a middle weight player. Most realize sans DWdae he would have been working elsewhere long before this year. I think Bob Huggins summarized it best by referring to him as Tommy Naismith. so stinking appropriate.
Sorry you did not like the Jim/Joani comment ...truth hurts. But I think that his borderline gay fascination of football coahes is the reason for his attarction if you cannot F..... bill Parcells why not Jim Harbaugh?
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This discussion is about whether the guy would be welcomed back with open arms after a certain amount of time. Hayward simply said no.
Incidentally Chicos, when you make statements about Doug Melvin and Doc Rivers singing his praises -- on top of stories of the guy spreading his legs and growing a tail on top of a gymful of pre-pubescent campers and their parents -- it only strengthens our argument over what a complete ass the guy is and why a TON (is that OK?) of people will boo him with their last breadth.
I'd like to know -- for all you guys (bma, 2002, Chicos) denying this -- what you think the reaction would be to him coming to a game would be?
If so many people love him and stopped donating to the B&G Fund...do you think he'd get cheered at a game? Is it because of how he left? Nobody cares about that. Was it his recruiting? Doubtful? How about the fact that his assistants and incoming freshman more often than not ran out the door like their hair was on fire. Getting closer...
...it's that people generally DON'T LIKE HIM! And it's why he won't be welcome back even after 10 years.
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if you cannot F..... bill Parcells why not Jim Harbaugh?
Hilarious. And actually not as outrageous a theory as some think.
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could be if as your screen name implies you are a 2002 grad then maybe your youth or maybe lack of context as far as other Mu coaches tends for you to look upon him more favorably. Maybe the recent Mu grads have a better opinion of him. All i know is i have dozens and dozens of MU grads that I speak to from accross the country and to a person they have dtested the guy for long before 4/2008. You may even recall the poll in the JS onlineform a few dyas after he left "glad or sad" it was about at 50/50. pretty telling...that half the people were glad he was gone for a guy that supposedly did so much ... I think what hurt his persona to alot of the causla fans is he acted and promoted himself like he was god's gift to the game. Yet his flame outs, poor bench coaching , annual contract renegotiotions after flirting with other jobs, and avergae recruiting was obvious to even the most casual observer. MAny casual fans were not aware of his true personality and lack of character but they soured on the selling of himself as a Superstar when his record reflected more of a middle weight player. Most realize sans DWdae he would have been working elsewhere long before this year. I think Bob Huggins summarized it best by referring to him as Tommy Naismith. so stinking appropriate.
Sorry you did not like the Jim/Joani comment ...truth hurts. But I think that his borderline gay fascination of football coahes is the reason for his attarction if you cannot F..... bill Parcells why not Jim Harbaugh?
I get it, man.
You and your old friends/colleagues hate Crean. Seriously. I get it. You think most people hate Crean. I get that too.
I haven't said you are definitively wrong, because there is no way of knowing. So let's all just admit that.
I said I didn't agree with your premise, but neither one of us has a accurate poll or stats to back it up. I'm not sure a JS poll within 24 hours of him leaving is a good indicator of how he will be received 10 years from now.
It's all speculation based upon our own point of view, so we'll just have to agree to disagree.
As far as joanie goes, I just don't think it's funny making fun of a coach's wife. Especially in print. I'm sure you wouldn't want people taking shots at your wife for no real reason.
If you want to rip Tom for his lame track suits, go nuts. Ties too long? Yep. Bad haircut? Most of the time. Tanning? Probably twice per week. But Joanie? C'mon man. Leave her out of this.
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If a visual of Don Shula enters into the equation, this thread needs to be locked.
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This is a spectacular thread. I got a bad vibe from Crean at the CUSA tourney in Memphis and it never changed. I don't live in Milwaukee, but do have one connection to the program on the medical staff. Let's just say the docs that work with the program detested the tan one.
I do agree with Chicos that his tenure was fairly successful on a won/loss perspective and we certainly managed to enter the Big East on a very competitive basis.
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If so many people love him and stopped donating to the B&G Fund...do you think he'd get cheered at a game? Is it because of how he left? Nobody cares about that. Was it his recruiting? Doubtful? How about the fact that his assistants and incoming freshman more often than not ran out the door like their hair was on fire. Getting closer...
...it's that people generally DON'T LIKE HIM! And it's why he won't be welcome back even after 10 years.
He will absolutely 100% be cheered when he comes back for some sort of reunion. People forget the bad things as time goes on. In a few years, since very few even know about his attitude, very few will even remember it. Instead they'll remember returning the program to prominence after Deane, they'll remember the C-USA title, the Final Four, the 5 NCAA tournaments in 9 years, Wade, Diener, James, etc. They'll remember the 2nd most successful coach in the history of this university, and they'll cheer for him.
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This is a spectacular thread. I got a bad vibe from Crean at the CUSA tourney in Memphis and it never changed. I don't live in Milwaukee, but do have one connection to the program on the medical staff. Let's just say the docs that work with the program detested the tan one.
I do agree with Chicos that his tenure was fairly successful on a won/loss perspective and we certainly managed to enter the Big East on a very competitive basis.
I have no doubts whatsoever from the docs that worked with him. He was very demanding and some would say other things (I never encountered that personally but I wasn't there long enough to experience it under his tenure), that is not a surprise to me at all. Not an easy person to work for or with. Then again, neither was Bobby, neither was Roy, neither were most coaches, Mike Scioscia being one of the glowing exceptions to the rule.
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This discussion is about whether the guy would be welcomed back with open arms after a certain amount of time. Hayward simply said no.
Incidentally Chicos, when you make statements about Doug Melvin and Doc Rivers singing his praises -- on top of stories of the guy spreading his legs and growing a tail on top of a gymful of pre-pubescent campers and their parents -- it only strengthens our argument over what a complete ass the guy is and why a TON (is that OK?) of people will boo him with their last breadth.
I'd like to know -- for all you guys (bma, 2002, Chicos) denying this -- what you think the reaction would be to him coming to a game would be?
If so many people love him and stopped donating to the B&G Fund...do you think he'd get cheered at a game? Is it because of how he left? Nobody cares about that. Was it his recruiting? Doubtful? How about the fact that his assistants and incoming freshman more often than not ran out the door like their hair was on fire. Getting closer...
...it's that people generally DON'T LIKE HIM! And it's why he won't be welcome back even after 10 years.
I have no idea what people's reactions would be, probably mixed. There would be those that would scream at the top of their lungs, the same kind that screamed that Deane sucked or yelled at Cords during the reseating process I was part of. You're always going to have some people like that. Then there would be people that would just sit on their hands not willing to show any emotion at all in some kind of protest. There would be those that give him the Midwest polite clap hello, and then those that would wildly cheer for him. Probably a pretty good mix. But I don't think you would have more than 10% that would scream bloody murder about him. That would be pretty classless and most MU and Milwaukee fans don't fall into that category. If this was Philadelphia, then maybe so.
Would UWM fans jeer Bruce Pearl if he came back? Successful coach who was controversial, a complete prick and left for another school. I'd say no.
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Second most successful coach in MU history, graduated all of his players, never a hint of NCAA violations vs. some viewed him as a phony, as abrasive, as self promoting. Hmmmm. Give me the first every single time.
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He will absolutely 100% be cheered when he comes back for some sort of reunion. People forget the bad things as time goes on. In a few years, since very few even know about his attitude, very few will even remember it. Instead they'll remember returning the program to prominence after Deane, they'll remember the C-USA title, the Final Four, the 5 NCAA tournaments in 9 years, Wade, Diener, James, etc. They'll remember the 2nd most successful coach in the history of this university, and they'll cheer for him.
No need to fret this one. He won't be back. Doesn't have the nads for it. Let's not forget he pulled an Irsay by cleaning out his MU office in the dead of night. He'll never be back and I'm thrilled.
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No need to fret this one. He won't be back. Doesn't have the nads for it. Let's not forget he pulled an Irsay by cleaning out his MU office in the dead of night. He'll never be back and I'm thrilled.
He'll be back at some point, unless he's dead. He'll be back. When they honor the Final Four team in 2013 or 2018 or 2023 at some point he'll be back. You can guarantee that he'll be back for one of those and people who have a huge axe to grind will have moved on. If he tanks at IU or is successful at IU, it won't matter, he'll be back at some point.
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Would UWM fans jeer Bruce Pearl if he came back? Successful coach who was controversial, a complete prick and left for another school. I'd say no.
Bruce took UWM to levels they never dreamed possible. It wasn't that long ago that they were a D-III school stuck in neutral and he had them playing in the Sweet 16 with an exciting brand of basketball. Haidet and the entire athletic department knew they could never keep him. I can tell you, however, the decision to leave Milwaukee was not that easy for him. He felt an obligation to the school for giving him a chance. I, for one, encouraged him to go. Flat out told him, "there's no real decision to be made." And Bruce knew that anyway, but he does have a heart and there were second thoughts. Funny how he still returns each summer to spend time with some of his Milwaukee buds. Gotta disagree, JD, Bruce would be wildly welcomed for a UWM reunion.
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Bruce took UWM to levels they never dreamed possible. It wasn't that long ago that they were a D-III school stuck in neutral and he had them playing in the Sweet 16 with an exciting brand of basketball. Haidet and the entire athletic department knew they could never keep him. I can tell you, however, the decision to leave Milwaukee was not that easy for him. He felt an obligation to the school for giving him a chance. I, for one, encouraged him to go. Flat out told him, "there's no real decision to be made." And Bruce knew that anyway, but he does have a heart and there were second thoughts. Funny how he still returns each summer to spend time with some of his Milwaukee buds. Gotta disagree, JD, Bruce would be wildly welcomed for a UWM reunion.
That's entirely my point, he would be wildly welcomed back at UWM (despite leaving his school, despite being a prick to many, despite being a pompous self absorbed self promoter, he would still be welcomed back).
Just as Crean would by most people. And just as Crean admitted a few days later having second thoughts as well after he left MU. And Crean didn't even tamper with players from other schools like Bruce did. ;)
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Can we get back to the fact that SJS itimated that KO left the MU program in a bad way...
Lets see with Kevin's players we were NIT runner-up, NCAA 2nd Round (4 seed) and NCAA (plus CUSAT champs) the 3 years after he left. Seems to me he had MU pretty well positioned. B/C I know Mike can't be credited with any of those accomplishments.
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But let us not forget Marquette 84 actually stated that Dukiet was abetter coach than Oneill. that plus the recruiting theory calls for a straight jacket.
Let's also not forget that you were tried to pin O'Neill's team being swept by Butler in 91 on Dukeit. At least I get my facts straight.
Then, lets focus on what I actually said: I pointed out was that it was it took far better coaching for Dukiet to coax a 10-18 season in 88 than O'Neill to go 11-18 in 91.
If you want to respond, respond specifically to that. Tell me why you think 91 represented a better coaching performance.
I've already given you my view--in 88 with loss of Flory and Posey from the roster before the season started, Reeder and Nethen mid-year, and the fact that 9 of 12 rostered players were either freshmen or sophomores, I think coaching 10 wins out of that team was nothing short of a miracle.
When you couple that with Dukiet's success at St. Peters pre-MU and Gannon post-MU, and I think its fair to say that the complaints about Dukiet's coaching are grossly exaggerated.
Can we get back to the fact that SJS itimated that KO left the MU program in a bad way...
Lets see with Kevin's players we were NIT runner-up, NCAA 2nd Round (4 seed) and NCAA (plus CUSAT champs) the 3 years after he left. Seems to me he had MU pretty well positioned. B/C I know Mike can't be credited with any of those accomplishments.
Please note that my comment wasn't that O'Neill left the roster depleted, but rather than he recommended a weak recruiter as his replacement knowing that he built no established recruiting pipeline. As O'Neil's recruits left, MU declined--and by 1999 we wern't much better off then when O'Neill arrived.
I don't consider a 6-10 CUSA record and last place in the division while counting on Krunti Hester to lead the rebuilding effort to be "pretty well positioned". If you do, then we'll just have to disagree.
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Then, lets focus on what I actually said: I pointed out was that it was it took far better coaching for Dukiet to coax a 10-18 season in 88 than O'Neill to go 11-18 in 91.
In 87-88 we were playing low D1 teams like Stetson, Iona and Fordham to fill the schedule. While the 90-91 schedule wasn't filled with all ACC or Big East teams, we were at least playing mid-major talent every game.
Btw, in 87-88 we lost to that "never-was" SEC school that KO left for - by 16.
It's all subjective, but KO did do a better job. If I remember correctly KO was giving Mac, Key and Logterman tons of minutes - and they were freshmen. Logterman played the entire season out of position at PG.
While the 87-88 team certainly didn't have more talent, it at least had a PG in Michael "Pop" Sims.
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All i know is i have dozens and dozens of MU grads that I speak to from accross the country and to a person they have dtested the guy for long before 4/2008. You may even recall the poll in the JS onlineform a few dyas after he left "glad or sad" it was about at 50/50. pretty telling...that half the people were glad he was gone for a guy that supposedly did so much ...
A couple of things. First of all, most of the people I talk to are generally favorable about him. Like a lot of other people, I think he was arrogant and was always exploring to find a better option, but I think he did a lot for the school and the program and I appreciate it.
Second, your comment about the poll simply countersyour overall point. If the poll was 50/50 right after he left -- when you would expect emotions to be running most high -- that really suggests to me that he was a very, very popular coach. Honestly, as I was reading your post I was expecting you to say 80/20 or 90/10. That's what I'd expect in the days after a coach left. Face it -- even as you're trying to make the point that everybody hates him, the numbers you cite suggest that, at worst, it's a 50/50 split.
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In 87-88 we were playing low D1 teams like Stetson, Iona and Fordham to fill the schedule. While the 90-91 schedule wasn't filled with all ACC or Big East teams, we were at least playing mid-major talent every game.
You mean mid-major talent like Mississippi Valley State and Prairie View A&M? Oh wait no, those were schedule fillers just like Iona and Fordham.
Look at the two schedules again, the 1987-88 schedule was much tougher than you think.
1987-88:
High Majors(12): Tennessee, Wisconsin, Northwestern, Minnesota, Kansas State, Notre Dame(2), Miami, DePaul(2), Wake Forest, Virginia Tech
Mid Majors(11): Air Force, Dayton(2), Loyola-Chicago, Loyola Marymount, Creighton, Valpo, Evansville, Cleveland State, Western Michigan, Xavier
Low Majors(5): Fordham, Iona, Stetson, Canisius, Hartford
1990-91
High Majors(11): Duke, Kansas, Wisconsin, Michigan, Oklahoma State, Virginia, DePaul(2), Notre Dame(2), NC State,
Mid Majors(15): Dayton(2), Xavier(2), Loyola-Chicago(2), Evansville(2), SLU(3), Detroit(2), Butler(2),
Low Majors(3): Arkansas Little Rock, Mississippi Valley State, Prarie View
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Please note that my comment wasn't that O'Neill left the roster depleted, but rather than he recommended a weak recruiter as his replacement knowing that he built no established recruiting pipeline. As O'Neil's recruits left, MU declined--and by 1999 we wern't much better off then when O'Neill arrived.
I don't consider a 6-10 CUSA record and last place in the division while counting on Krunti Hester to lead the rebuilding effort to be "pretty well positioned". If you do, then we'll just have to disagree.
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I have it on good authority that he told Cords to hire Dick Bennett. And if a coach leaves in 94 and the program flounders in 99 (or even 98) can you really blame that coach?
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stilla warrior.....you are missing the point ...the Cream lovers ala 2002 and chicos keep say he would get a rousing ovation or that maybe 10% would be unapproving. My point simply was if 50% said "glad" how is it then that only 10% would be un approving.
I actually think as time goes on Crean becomes less and less liked by Mu people. As Buzz is successful and genuine it makes Crean look less and less "good" and given him leaving and how he left and being a prick in general people will in general just think he is the loser that he is. Sort of like a Monson at Gonzaga...a you thought you were so great and left us for a bigger program...BTW thanks you prick. Maybe not a totally apt comparison I have never met him and do not know what the general feeling of him before he left. My guess is he was not as widely hated at Gonzo. as Crean was at MU, seems most people Cream came in contact simply hated the guy, doctors, admins, players, coaches , fans etc.
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1987-88:
High Majors(12): Tennessee, Wisconsin, Northwestern, Minnesota, Kansas State, Notre Dame(2), Miami, DePaul(2), Wake Forest, Virginia Tech
Mid Majors(11): Air Force, Dayton(2), Loyola-Chicago, Loyola Marymount, Creighton, Valpo, Evansville, Cleveland State, Western Michigan, Xavier
Low Majors(5): Fordham, Iona, Stetson, Canisius, Hartford
1990-91
High Majors(11): Duke, Kansas, Wisconsin, Michigan, Oklahoma State, Virginia, DePaul(2), Notre Dame(2), NC State,
Mid Majors(15): Dayton(2), Xavier(2), Loyola-Chicago(2), Evansville(2), SLU(3), Detroit(2), Butler(2),
Low Majors(3): Arkansas Little Rock, Mississippi Valley State, Prarie View
bma, I think you proved my point. MU played 5 cupcakes in 87-88, and only 3 in 90-91. Yet in 87-88 Dukiet only won one more game then KO did in 90-91. We also played 23 mid majors or higher in 87-88, and 26 in 90-91.
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In 87-88 we were playing low D1 teams like Stetson, Iona and Fordham to fill the schedule. While the 90-91 schedule wasn't filled with all ACC or Big East teams, we were at least playing mid-major talent every game.
We were in the MCC in 91 for gods sake! Over half the schedule was filled with such low D1 teams--not Fordham or Iona, but Loyola, Butler, Evansville, Detroit etc.
Both years we had a mix of good and bad teams. In 91 we had big names like Duke, Kansas, Michigan, Oklahoma State, Notre Dame-- but we also had the MCC schedule, Mississippi Valley State, Prairie View A&M, Arkansas Little Rock.
In 88 we had big names like Minnesota, Xavier (an NCAA team that year), Kansas State, Tennessee, Wake Forest--and the MCC-like teams you cited above.
I don't buy the schedule argument--there were a mix of tough and easy game each season, and it looks like they were in about the same ratio.
Btw, in 87-88 we lost to that "never-was" SEC school that KO left for - by 16.
Funny, you just got through telling me that we only played low D1 teams like Iona and Fordham.
Perhaps your point is that Tennesse is also a low major, similar to Fordham and Iona.
Doesn't that makes the fact that O'Neill left for such a program even more galling.
It's all subjective, but KO did do a better job. If I remember correctly KO was giving Mac, Key and Logterman tons of minutes - and they were freshmen. Logterman played the entire season out of position at PG.
While the 87-88 team certainly didn't have more talent, it at least had a PG in Michael "Pop" Sims.
Well this at least has the makings of an argument. A point guard is important.
However, you are not correct when you claim Logtermann played point the entire season. Keith Stewart was kicked off the team prior to the game at Dayton--which was 10 games into the season. By that point, we had played the most of the difficult teams on the schedule.
Logtermann was the PG for the MCC schedule and the later part of the non-conference schedule.
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bma, I think you proved my point. MU played 5 cupcakes in 87-88, and only 3 in 90-91. Yet in 87-88 Dukiet only won one more game then KO did in 90-91. We also played 23 mid majors or higher in 87-88, and 26 in 90-91.
Not exactly. The schedule was slightly tougher in 1990-91, but the talent was exponentially better. Winning 10 games against that schedule in 1987-88 with the talent that was on that team is quite honestly overachieving. Winning 11 games in 1990-91 with the talent that was on the team is under performing quite a bit.
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bma, I think you proved my point. MU played 5 cupcakes in 87-88, and only 3 in 90-91. Yet in 87-88 Dukiet only won one more game then KO did in 90-91. We also played 23 mid majors or higher in 87-88, and 26 in 90-91.
I think BMA is probably a bit too charitible when he classifies the entire MCC schedule as "mid-majors" in his 1991 analsyis. If that were true, we would have had no reason to leave.
I hope you would grant that at very least, the 7th and 8th place teams in the MCC in 1991 were on a par with the likes of Fordham, Iona, or Stetson.
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Not exactly. The schedule was slightly tougher in 1990-91, but the talent was exponentially better. Winning 10 games against that schedule in 1987-88 with the talent that was on that team is quite honestly overachieving. Winning 11 games in 1990-91 with the talent that was on the team is under performing quite a bit.
We started 4 Freshmen in 90-91, please. And more importantly had no PG...remeber 2005 when Mu had no PG now surround the no PG scenario with 4 freshman starting ...yet you argue we under acheived due to our talnet. BMA i usually agree with you but that is a head scrathcer.
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We started 4 Freshmen in 90-91, please. And more importantly had no PG...remeber 2005 when Mu had no PG now surround the no PG scenario with 4 freshman starting
co-sign for the most part....Stewart's issues killed that team. Rob and Mark couldn't play the point and there was nobody else on the roster with a decent handle. The group had tons of talent relative to the previous year but absent a PG it didnt matter as much. Also, KO struggled with the senior vs freshman issue a bit -- the newcomers had a lot more talent than the outgoing seniors but the minutes didnt necessarily reflect that.
Keep in mind -- MU did not start four freshman in 90-91. Trevor and Mark were 4-year starters on that team, and Curry was also a starter (redshirt sophomore). Damon was a starter, Rob was forced into it while Jim played more as the season moved along and his concussion issues were resolved.
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The 90-91 team was woefully undermanned at that point. Logtermann, a shooting guard in high school, had to step in at the point at Kansas and at Duke in the first few games of the season. It was downright embarrassing, especially when Logtermann was flopping around in his socks having blown out a shoe. O'Neil told me that no one had any idea how much Tony Smith carried the team the year before. He said when the other team pressured MU, it was "Tony bring the ball up." We needed a bucket, "Tony, get a bucket." The other team had a big scorer, "Tony shut him down." The talent level was exposed without Smith there.
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My guess is he was not as widely hated at Gonzo. as Crean was at MU, seems most people Cream came in contact simply hated the guy, doctors, admins, players, coaches , fans etc.
Yet right after he left, when you would expect most people to be extremely angry with him because he left in the middle of the night, only 50% of the people were glad he was gone. I don't disagree with your contention that he was pompous and a lot of people didn't like him. I just think you're overestimating the number. I think he wil be generally fondly remembered, and I think the overall reception if he comes back to a game in 10 years will be favorable.
And you need to read the thread more carefully ... unless, of course, you're intentionally throwing straw men out there. Neither Chico nor 2002 said Crean would receive a "rousing ovation." That term was used by PRN to describe the reception that Deane would receive. PRN said that Crean would be "booed out of the building" if he returned, and 2002 merely disagreed. BMA said he thought Crean would be cheered, and I agree. The "Crean lovers" have argued only that they think Crean, on average, would be favorably received (even while admitting that he was an egotistical jerk who is hated by a lot of people). Not a particularly extreme position to take. You and PRN are the ones taking the extreme positions. I wonder if you and/or PRN really believe that Deane ("rousing ovation") would be more warmly received than Crean ("booed out of the building") by the average fan if they returned. I think that's crazy. Honestly, I think a lot of casual fans (I'm married to one) either forget that there was someone between KO and Crean or they would remember Deane only as "that coach between O'Neill and Crean."
Edited to add: I want to be clear that I don't think that is a fair characterization of Deane. I just think that he was not nearly as "colorful" as KO and/or Crean, and many casual fans would't remember him too vividly. As I've said in the past when discussing the nickname debate, I think those of us who post here overestimate how invested most "casual fans" are.
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We started 4 Freshmen in 90-91, please. And more importantly had no PG...remeber 2005 when Mu had no PG now surround the no PG scenario with 4 freshman starting ...yet you argue we under acheived due to our talnet. BMA i usually agree with you but that is a head scrathcer.
We didn't start 4 freshman in 90-91. Most games it was 2, for a couple games it was 1. Anglavar and Powell were seniors. Curry was a 3rd year sophomore. Heck, when he started Keith Stewart was a 3rd year sophomore as well.
Second, if you don't think that team had a ton of talent you are kidding yourself. When you actually look at the roster, it was extremely talented. Key as a freshman was better than all but two players on the 1987-88 team....heck Key as a hs junior was better than all but two players on the 1987-88 team. Anglavar and Powell were better as seniors than they were as freshman in 1987-88, Curry in his first year with MU was an immediate impact player, Logterman averaged double figures as a freshman despite playing out of position, and for the first time in quite awhile MU was deep enough that they could keep a Top 100 freshman in McIlvaine on the bench.
Talent is talent, doesn't matter whether a player is a freshman or a senior, if they've got it you'll know, and those guys all had it right away.
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stilla warrior.....you are missing the point ...the Cream lovers ala 2002 and chicos keep say he would get a rousing ovation or that maybe 10% would be unapproving. My point simply was if 50% said "glad" how is it then that only 10% would be un approving.
I actually think as time goes on Crean becomes less and less liked by Mu people. As Buzz is successful and genuine it makes Crean look less and less "good" and given him leaving and how he left and being a prick in general people will in general just think he is the loser that he is. Sort of like a Monson at Gonzaga...a you thought you were so great and left us for a bigger program...BTW thanks you prick. Maybe not a totally apt comparison I have never met him and do not know what the general feeling of him before he left. My guess is he was not as widely hated at Gonzo. as Crean was at MU, seems most people Cream came in contact simply hated the guy, doctors, admins, players, coaches , fans etc.
I live in a sea of Zags and can tell you that Monson is still beloved by their fans. When he left the program he turned the keys over to his long time assistant coach (who worked out pretty well) and still kept in touch with the program. He was at more than a couple of GU games last year sitting next to Judd Heathcote cheering on the pretty impressive program that he helped build.
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As I read all this puffing and bickering about Crean and the positive or negative reception he may or may not get from the fans at some point in the future I cannot help but wonder, . . .
Trevor Powell -- Where is he now? Did he come back to Milwaukee?
Any of you -- especially those who *clearly* talk to [and from what I have gleaned on behalf of] hundreds and hundreds of Marquette alums and fans on a regular basis -- know anything about Trevor's whereabouts? ;D
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The 90-91 team was woefully undermanned at that point. Logtermann, a shooting guard in high school, had to step in at the point at Kansas and at Duke in the first few games of the season. It was downright embarrassing, especially when Logtermann was flopping around in his socks having blown out a shoe. O'Neil told me that no one had any idea how much Tony Smith carried the team the year before. He said when the other team pressured MU, it was "Tony bring the ball up." We needed a bucket, "Tony, get a bucket." The other team had a big scorer, "Tony shut him down." The talent level was exposed without Smith there.
I agree the team was woefully undermanned at point in 90-91. It does make me chuckle, however, when MU was in a similar situation when Diener went down for parts of his senior season (before any tackling dummy) this was Crean's fault yet in 90-91 it was just one of those things, bad luck and the like.
Agendas are pretty clear...some people on this board think Crean was the anti-Christ or Hitler reincarnated. I'll never get it quite frankly. He did more for MU basketball then anyone not named Al McGuire and history will treat Crean kindly at MU.
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The difference of course being KO was in year two and his freshmen were a great recruiting class, folks figired the future was bright. TC was in year 6. It shouldn't have gotten that bad in year 6. No one seems to ever complain about years 1 & 2 of the TC regime.
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I also chuckle at the behavior of Crean that he is constantly disparaged about. Yeah, he was arrogant. But was he constantly taking shots at the university or his boss, Cords and DiUlio? Was he cheating on his wife in the open? Was he falling down drunk at bars downtown with everyone knowing "there's the Marquette coach drunk off his ass again"?
It's amazing to me what people get upset about with Crean because he was a self promoter when we've had other coaches that quite frankly sullied the school's image.
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We didn't start 4 freshman in 90-91. Most games it was 2, for a couple games it was 1. Anglavar and Powell were seniors. Curry was a 3rd year sophomore. Heck, when he started Keith Stewart was a 3rd year sophomore as well.
Second, if you don't think that team had a ton of talent you are kidding yourself. When you actually look at the roster, it was extremely talented. Key as a freshman was better than all but two players on the 1987-88 team....heck Key as a hs junior was better than all but two players on the 1987-88 team. Anglavar and Powell were better as seniors than they were as freshman in 1987-88, Curry in his first year with MU was an immediate impact player, Logterman averaged double figures as a freshman despite playing out of position, and for the first time in quite awhile MU was deep enough that they could keep a Top 100 freshman in McIlvaine on the bench.
Talent is talent, doesn't matter whether a player is a freshman or a senior, if they've got it you'll know, and those guys all had it right away.
Doesnt' matter how much talent you have at the #2-5's if your #1 can't pass and dribble.
By the time the dust settled, Marquette set season records for turnovers (535) and fewest steals (109).
That's almost 20 turnovers a GAME. The talent was there on that team, but they were missing an important ingredient, a point guard. I'd be willing to bet that that season was one of the worst as far as assists also.
Just like when Deiner went down, I blame the pg shortage on the coach (in this case KO). But what I'm arguing is that KO did a better job in 90-91 then Dukiet did in 87-88.
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Once again you overestimate how popular the hatred of Crean is. The common fan loved the guy and for the most part still does because of what the team did on the court.
They don't read the message boards, they don't talk to players/AD staff, they don't know about the camp incident or housecreaning or Diener's injury...and quite honestly they don't give a crap about any of that. They see a guy that seemed like a nice person on TV and delivered a winning product, so they like him and not much is going to change that. Even those bitter about him leaving with forgive him rather easily if Buzz keeps winning.
There's just never been and likely never will be this widespread hatred of the man like you hope for.
Seems like you're saying "to know him is to loathe him" and the casual fans just don't know him well enough to despise him. You may be right.
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As I read all this puffing and bickering about Crean and the positive or negative reception he may or may not get from the fans at some point in the future I cannot help but wonder, . . .
Trevor Powell -- Where is he now? Did he come back to Milwaukee?
Any of you -- especially those who *clearly* talk to [and from what I have gleaned on behalf of] hundreds and hundreds of Marquette alums and fans on a regular basis -- know anything about Trevor's whereabouts?
Thanks for the greatest post of the thread.
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We didn't start 4 freshman in 90-91. Most games it was 2, for a couple games it was 1. Anglavar and Powell were seniors. Curry was a 3rd year sophomore. Heck, when he started Keith Stewart was a 3rd year sophomore as well.
Second, if you don't think that team had a ton of talent you are kidding yourself. When you actually look at the roster, it was extremely talented. Key as a freshman was better than all but two players on the 1987-88 team....heck Key as a hs junior was better than all but two players on the 1987-88 team. Anglavar and Powell were better as seniors than they were as freshman in 1987-88, Curry in his first year with MU was an immediate impact player, Logterman averaged double figures as a freshman despite playing out of position, and for the first time in quite awhile MU was deep enough that they could keep a Top 100 freshman in McIlvaine on the bench.
Talent is talent, doesn't matter whether a player is a freshman or a senior, if they've got it you'll know, and those guys all had it right away.
see i have to disagree with that Powell and Anglavar we neither very good as the previous poster added, T. Smith made them look good they both really really struglled withou them. Curry was good. Dont remember Stewrt starting. Now as far as the Freshmen apart from Key although they were relatively highly rated, barely top 100 they were not entirely ready to step in and performa ala a Jerel and Dj as they were no where near as athletic and no where near as highly rated.
Nevertheless, that is all trumped by the fact that if you do not have a point guard let alone have to play a freshman at the point who is very unathletic relative to the guys guarding him and has never played the positon before you are in freaking trouble.
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Any of you -- especially those who *clearly* talk to [and from what I have gleaned on behalf of] hundreds and hundreds of Marquette alums and fans on a regular basis -- know anything about Trevor's whereabouts?
Thanks for the greatest post of the thread.
It's easy, just go to www.trevorpowell.com to find out where he's been ;D
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It's easy, just go to www.trevorpowell.com to find out where he's been ;D
Wow, Trevor's take on ActionScript 3 and ExternalInterface are mind blowing!
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see i have to disagree with that Powell and Anglavar we neither very good as the previous poster added, T. Smith made them look good they both really really struglled withou them. Curry was good. Dont remember Stewrt starting. Now as far as the Freshmen apart from Key although they were relatively highly rated, barely top 100 they were not entirely ready to step in and performa ala a Jerel and Dj as they were no where near as athletic and no where near as highly rated.
Nevertheless, that is all trumped by the fact that if you do not have a point guard let alone have to play a freshman at the point who is very unathletic relative to the guys guarding him and has never played the positon before you are in freaking trouble.
There's just one problem. The previous poster was wrong about Tony Smith making them look good, they were good. Powell's senior season was down statistically and he still averaged 12+ PPG to finish second on the team and he led the team with 7.3 RPG. His shooting percentage as a senior is second all time in MU history, and Tony Smith wasn't there to give him easy baskets. Anglavar still holds the senior season record for 3 point percentage, he's top 10 in assists and 3 point field goals made as senior. Again all without Tony Smith.
The freshman were not as athletic or highly rated, but basketball was a very different game in 1991 and they weren't stepping in to the modern Big East. The MCC that year was one of the worst conferences in the country. Only Xavier made the NCAA Tournament, and they did it as a 14 seed. Butler was the only other team to play in the post season, where they lost in the first round of the NIT. Besides those two only SLU had a winning record and the rest of the conference was awful. Dayton went 14-15. Evansville went 14-14. Detroit and Loyola were worse than MU going 9-19 and 10-19 respectively. Not only that, but out of conference they lost twice to a Notre Dame team that went 12-20. Say what you want about experience, but a team with 5 Top 100 recruits on the roster(six if you count Stewart), and one of the university's top 10 scorers(Powell) should do better than 11-18.
Am I saying they should have won 20 games? No. But they should have been closer to .500 given the talent that was on the roster.
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creans first and second teams at MU really sucked too. Dont give me a those were Deanes players either because you are not affording that to Oneill.
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creans first and second teams at MU really sucked too. Dont give me a those were Deanes players either because you are not affording that to Oneill.
What the f**k does Crean have to do with any of this? Are you simply incapable of going more than one post without mentioning him? This is about O'Neill and Dukiet, and the fact that given the talent on the respective rosters in 1987-88 and 1990-91, Dukiet had the better coaching performance. Crean, Deane, Buzz, Majerus or any other coach have nothing to do with it.
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There's just one problem. The previous poster was wrong about Tony Smith making them look good, they were good. Powell's senior season was down statistically and he still averaged 12+ PPG to finish second on the team and he led the team with 7.3 RPG. His shooting percentage as a senior is second all time in MU history, and Tony Smith wasn't there to give him easy baskets. Anglavar still holds the senior season record for 3 point percentage, he's top 10 in assists and 3 point field goals made as senior. Again all without Tony Smith.
The freshman were not as athletic or highly rated, but basketball was a very different game in 1991 and they weren't stepping in to the modern Big East. The MCC that year was one of the worst conferences in the country. Only Xavier made the NCAA Tournament, and they did it as a 14 seed. Butler was the only other team to play in the post season, where they lost in the first round of the NIT. Besides those two only SLU had a winning record and the rest of the conference was awful. Dayton went 14-15. Evansville went 14-14. Detroit and Loyola were worse than MU going 9-19 and 10-19 respectively. Not only that, but out of conference they lost twice to a Notre Dame team that went 12-20. Say what you want about experience, but a team with 5 Top 100 recruits on the roster(six if you count Stewart), and one of the university's top 10 scorers(Powell) should do better than 11-18.
Am I saying they should have won 20 games? No. But they should have been closer to .500 given the talent that was on the roster.
+1
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What happened at the basketball camp with Crean?
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What happened at the basketball camp with Crean?
He gave his son an award as an elite camper, much like other fathers who coach do this all the time in Little League, AYSO, etc. Case in point, my son's Little League team just had the All-Stars voted on. My son made it, as he should of (being honest, he was one of the best players in the league) but the coach put his own son on the team as well and voted him in, not a chance in the world his kid is one of the top 14 kids in the league, he wasn't even top 10 on our own team.
But this stuff happens all the time in the real world and the anti-Crean folks basically tacked that up as another reason he's the anti-Christ. Should he have done it? Nope. But parents do silly things sometimes to boost confidence in their kids, show them their love or whatever their thought process is. Sometimes emotion makes you do silly things for your kids.
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He gave his son an award as an elite camper, much like other fathers who coach do this all the time in Little League, AYSO, etc. Case in point, my son's Little League team just had the All-Stars voted on. My son made it, as he should of (being honest, he was one of the best players in the league) but the coach put his own son on the team as well and voted him in, not a chance in the world his kid is one of the top 14 kids in the league, he wasn't even top 10 on our own team.
But this stuff happens all the time in the real world and the anti-Crean folks basically tacked that up as another reason he's the anti-Christ. Should he have done it? Nope. But parents do silly things sometimes to boost confidence in their kids, show them their love or whatever their thought process is. Sometimes emotion makes you do silly things for your kids.
Glad you agree Crean needs psychoanalysis or an increase in his medication. A volunteer little league coach and the face of a Big East University's basketball program cannot be equated. To be totally honest, Riley should never have been a camper at his dad's camp. I'm sure Calipari, Sampson, Izzo, or any one of TC's close personal buds would have welcomed the kid at their camp. Hell, I could have gotten him "comped" at Bruce's basketball camp. Just another example of Crean's arrogance and greed. Not really that surprising considerin he always thinks his actions fool the faithful followers. Tom just isn't a very classy or bright guy.
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That is not what happened and absolutely not even close to what happened. Chicos was not there I absolutely guarantee he was not there yet he somehow feels qualified to come on here and describe what happened like he was there. Absolute pathetic attempt to defend what happened.
Here is exactly what happened:
At the end of the Mu camp they gather all the players around before the pickup time and all the parents are assembled in the seating in the Al. They then proceed to give away awards for free team championships etc. Then they give individual awards similar to what they do for the regualr team, Hustle award, leadership award, toughness award, playmaker award, etc. etc. Meanwhile Crean is pacing around as he can only do waorking as the emcee.
Now Riley is adecent little player but he was on a team with McIvaines two boys who both push 6 feet as 10 year olds, seltzers boy who can play and is on a clearly hand chosen team who dominated everyone all week long and won the champioship undefeated. Bogus if you were paying attention...becuase all the other teams are chosen randomly and determined when you walk in. my son plays a t apretty elite level of AAu and half the kids there cant barely dribble, so most good players are on there own team wise and are lucky to have another good player on their team. yet somehow the mcilvaines seltzer, crean are all on one team and dominate the team section of the camp.
so Crean is calling that team up again and again to get all the team trophies etc. Then that part is over and that was fair enough in the sense that probably 80% of the people have no idea who the seltzer boy is, and probably dont realize those are the mcilvaine boys.
But then the individual awards start getting handed out and of course Riley wins the first he gets his award to cheers. Now keep in mind these are all subjective awards and there are 300 kids assembled in the gym, hustle award, toughness award, playmaker award etc.
Then he gets the next award to cheers as people kind of look at each other. now there are like 3 trophies left on the table and he gets the next award. Now people are no longer cheering some laughing with disbeleif, alot of murmuring and alot of questioning of why crean would do this.
then another kid gets an award and the place goes crazy,
then Crean gives his kid the next award or two and the place is simply beyond disbelief, people are embarrassed for and with Tom crean. most parents have been in those types of situation and give the awards to people other than there children even if there child is deserving simply do to the politics of being the coach. I dont think a person in the gym would have had a single problem with him getting an award or even two but to get almost every single awrd when for sure there was another deserving child in a gym of 300 campers.
simply an embarrassing moment and a tremendous bit of insight to hundreds of Mu parents, alumni, and fans of what kind of person Tom Crean is.
People hear rumors, etc. people that were not around him heard of his arrogance and of how he treated people, but for literally hundreds of adults to see someone do something like that simply made me giggle as he publically embarrased him self for about 10 staright minutes. the shaking of heads and the whispering etc. and in many cases anger and resentment that went on was so absolutely priceless i wish i could have recorded it all.
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That is not what happened and absolutely not even close to what happened. Chicos was not there I absolutely guarantee he was not there yet he somehow feels qualified to come on here and describe what happened like he was there. Absolute pathetic attempt to defend what happened.
Here is exactly what happened:
At the end of the Mu camp they gather all the players around before the pickup time and all the parents are assembled in the seating in the Al. They then proceed to give away awards for free team championships etc. Then they give individual awards similar to what they do for the regualr team, Hustle award, leadership award, toughness award, playmaker award, etc. etc. Meanwhile Crean is pacing around as he can only do waorking as the emcee.
Now Riley is adecent little player but he was on a team with McIvaines two boys who both push 6 feet as 10 year olds, seltzers boy who can play and is on a clearly hand chosen team who dominated everyone all week long and won the champioship undefeated. Bogus if you were paying attention...becuase all the other teams are chosen randomly and determined when you walk in. my son plays a t apretty elite level of AAu and half the kids there cant barely dribble, so most good players are on there own team wise and are lucky to have another good player on their team. yet somehow the mcilvaines seltzer, crean are all on one team and dominate the team section of the camp.
so Crean is calling that team up again and again to get all the team trophies etc. Then that part is over and that was fair enough in the sense that probably 80% of the people have no idea who the seltzer boy is, and probably dont realize those are the mcilvaine boys.
But then the individual awards start getting handed out and of course Riley wins the first he gets his award to cheers. Now keep in mind these are all subjective awards and there are 300 kids assembled in the gym, hustle award, toughness award, playmaker award etc.
Then he gets the next award to cheers as people kind of look at each other. now there are like 3 trophies left on the table and he gets the next award. Now people are no longer cheering some laughing with disbeleif, alot of murmuring and alot of questioning of why crean would do this.
then another kid gets an award and the place goes crazy,
then Crean gives his kid the next award or two and the place is simply beyond disbelief, people are embarrassed for and with Tom crean. most parents have been in those types of situation and give the awards to people other than there children even if there child is deserving simply do to the politics of being the coach. I dont think a person in the gym would have had a single problem with him getting an award or even two but to get almost every single awrd when for sure there was another deserving child in a gym of 300 campers.
simply an embarrassing moment and a tremendous bit of insight to hundreds of Mu parents, alumni, and fans of what kind of person Tom Crean is.
People hear rumors, etc. people that were not around him heard of his arrogance and of how he treated people, but for literally hundreds of adults to see someone do something like that simply made me giggle as he publically embarrased him self for about 10 staright minutes. the shaking of heads and the whispering etc. and in many cases anger and resentment that went on was so absolutely priceless i wish i could have recorded it all.
If this story is true, all it illustrates to me is that Crean is a douche. I already knew that, and I never claimed he wasn't. His haircut sucks, his ties are too long, his rhetoric and speeches became predictable and old.
However, he helped MU and provided me with hours of entertainment, and that's why I don't hate the guy like you guys do.
A lot of guys in power positions (CEOs, company presidents, head coaches, etc.) are douches and terribly arrogant. Now, that doesn't mean they deserve a free pass... but I'm just saying that it's not surprising. The president of my former employer was a HUGE douche. However, it was that personality that allowed him to make tough, smart business decisions when nicer people would have probably failed.
Crean being a douche isn't surprising.
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He gave his son an award as an elite camper, much like other fathers who coach do this all the time in Little League, AYSO, etc. Case in point, my son's Little League team just had the All-Stars voted on. My son made it, as he should of (being honest, he was one of the best players in the league) but the coach put his own son on the team as well and voted him in, not a chance in the world his kid is one of the top 14 kids in the league, he wasn't even top 10 on our own team.
But this stuff happens all the time in the real world and the anti-Crean folks basically tacked that up as another reason he's the anti-Christ. Should he have done it? Nope. But parents do silly things sometimes to boost confidence in their kids, show them their love or whatever their thought process is. Sometimes emotion makes you do silly things for your kids.
not what happened at all...secondly usually if a person is volunteering to coach a team there child does have a benefit of having a better chance of making it.
howver, you are dead wrong maybe it is how you think but i beleive most people of character do not. i have coached my boys in abaseball and basketball for many years. in none of those years were they not by far the best player on their teams. yet maybe on one or two occasions over the last 10 years have they ever won and award or been given a game ball awarded by the coach. you do that and the parents simply say " well of coarse, he is the coaches kid" it builds resentment and causes nothing but problems. I coached all-stars and travel teams and my kids always batted last despite annually winning the league hit-athon etc. They would ask w
"why do i have to bat last i am better than all those guys" the answer was "becuase you are the caoaches son" they got to the point that they never asked about it they just knew it was going to be that way. When my basketball teams are up 30 they sit the second half so other kids can play and only go in for a few to get a kid a breather, i dont need to prove to anyone they are good. while you see other teams coaches sons play whole second half trying to pad point totals.
two different midsets. maybe the reson you like Crean so much chicos is becuase you are on the same wave length. sad.
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If this story is true, all it illustrates to me is that Crean is a douche. I already knew that, and I never claimed he wasn't. His haircut sucks, his ties are too long, his rhetoric and speeches became predictable and old.
However, he helped MU and provided me with hours of entertainment, and that's why I don't hate the guy like you guys do.
A lot of guys in power positions (CEOs, company presidents, head coaches, etc.) are douches and terribly arrogant. Now, that doesn't mean they deserve a free pass... but I'm just saying that it's not surprising. The president of my former employer was a HUGE douche. However, it was that personality that allowed him to make tough, smart business decisions when nicer people would have probably failed.
Crean being a douche isn't surprising.
2002 that is exactly what happend and i am sure with an entire half of the Al being filled with parents there has to be one or more that post on here that could verify that my story is 100% true , possibly not aware of the stacked team. But the individual awards part was as surreal a scene as i have ever withnessesed. i swear if there was another award or two to give out the place might have rioted.
in fact i beleive other posters have verified the story in the past.
by the way my boys have gone to the camps for years and if you ahve little ones that are big time Mu fans like there parents the camps are great. my kids typically go to "elite" camps and the Mu camps suck in the sense that half the kids are "non-basketball players" and they dont really drill the kids hard. but my kids love the camps becuase Dj, jerel and all the playersa and ex players are there as counselors etc. worth the money alone for the fun and joy they have mingling, hanging, getting autograph, dunk contests etc with those guys all week.
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We were bad, but not that bad. Let's also not forget that Wisconsin-Madison was an absolute freaking JOKE during that time....54 straight years of no NCAA apperances. We were the only program in the state by and large, that helped tremendously in getting MacIlvaine, Key and Logtermann. Those times have changed considerably by the time Deane and Crean came in. We were no longer a monopoly in basketball.
O'Neill did some nice things for the program, he also was a brutal representative off the court in many ways. There's a reason why KO never made it to a It's Indiana, It's Indiana destination but instead at Tennessee, Northwestern and a one year cluster screw at Arizona (as well as his hopping from one NBA destination to another). He doesn't get that little thing called BEHAVIOUR in public and how to treat people appropriately.
For all the people that supposedly hate Crean, I find it amazing how he keeps coming up so positively in the press from Doc Rivers to Doug Melvin to fill in your choice of names. Crean is an SOB like most of them, but I never saw that kind of love or respect for KO from other folks in the industry and outside of it. In fact, the Crean detractors almost uniformly come from a group of about 50 people of which 60% of them are on this board.
The vast number of Milwaukee fans will remember him for taking a school that had ONE (ONE!!!!) Sweet 16 apperance in 25 years to a NCAA Final Four. They will remember him bringing in NBA players Dwyane Wade, Steve Novak, Travis Diener and potential NBA players in Wesley Matthews, Jerel McNeal, Dominic James and Lazar Hayward. They will remember sold out games, going to the Big East, going to the NCAAs consistently, no NCAA infraction issues, no police blotter issues, damn near perfect graduation rates. That's what most will remember. Yeah, he could be a prick, but he didn't crap on the university (KO did), he wasn't publicly cheating on his wife with MU coeds, he wasn't out publicly drunk constantly at various Milwaukee bars for all to see. But yes, he was a self promoter....damn, what a sin. ::)
I can't think of one in the entire NCAA coaching profession that is not one......... ;)
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2002 that is exactly what happend and i am sure with an entire half of the Al being filled with parents there has to be one or more that post on here that could verify that my story is 100% true , possibly not aware of the stacked team. But the individual awards part was as surreal a scene as i have ever withnessesed. i swear if there was another award or two to give out the place might have rioted.
in fact i beleive other posters have verified the story in the past.
by the way my boys have gone to the camps for years and if you ahve little ones that are big time Mu fans like there parents the camps are great. my kids typically go to "elite" camps and the Mu camps suck in the sense that half the kids are "non-basketball players" and they dont really drill the kids hard. but my kids love the camps becuase Dj, jerel and all the playersa and ex players are there as counselors etc. worth the money alone for the fun and joy they have mingling, hanging, getting autograph, dunk contests etc with those guys all week.
fine. it happened. whatever. I'm not trying to debate that.
The guy was an asset to MU, and that's why I don't hate him like you do.
He's not the first guy that was a douche that was good at his job. He's not the last.
Again, I don't think anybody around here is going to nominate TC for sainthood, but he did promote MU (and himself) and is definitely the 2nd or 3rd best coach in MU history.
You can say he's a douche, but don't pretend like he didn't help MU.
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fine. it happened. whatever. I'm not trying to debate that.
The guy was an asset to MU, and that's why I don't hate him like you do.
He's not the first guy that was a douche that was good at his job. He's not the last.
Again, I don't think anybody around here is going to nominate TC for sainthood, but he did promote MU (and himself) and is definitely the 2nd or 3rd best coach in MU history.
You can say he's a douche, but don't pretend like he didn't help MU.
I wonder if Hayward was there, since he lives in Indiana. The notion of him having offspring is also frightening, but maybe he likes to follow boys around at basketball camps in the event he doesn't have kids.
As I said, should he have done it....nope. Absolutely not. Unfortunately people do really stupid things when it comes to their kids for whatever reason.
Now the bigger question is how does this translate to what he did for Marquette University and the basketball program? I'll bet Rick Majerus didn't give his kid those awards (because he doesn't have kids), therefore that makes Rick a better coach at MU apparently. ::)
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Did Riley win the award for most deflections too?
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my son plays a t apretty elite level of AAu and half the kids there cant barely dribble, so most good players are on there own team wise and are lucky to have another good player on their team.
So this begs the question . . .
Why would you send your son to his camp in the first place? Seriously--you hate the man. You claim he's both a lousy coach and a lousy person.
Yet, you send YOUR SON--who apparently has options as a player an a "pretty elite" AAU league-- to attend TOM CREAN'S BASKETBALL CAMP??? Of all the basketball camps across the country, you choose the camp run by the one guy you hate more than anyone else in basketball?
I'm sorry, but I don't get it. You hate the guy, and there are plenty of other options--yet send your kid to his camp?
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So this begs the question . . .
Why would you send your son to his camp in the first place? Seriously--you hate the man. You claim he's both a lousy coach and a lousy person.
Yet, you send YOUR SON--who apparently has options as a player an a "pretty elite" AAU league-- to attend TOM CREAN'S BASKETBALL CAMP??? Of all the basketball camps across the country, you choose the camp run by the one guy you hate more than anyone else in basketball?
I'm sorry, but I don't get it. You hate the guy, and there are plenty of other options--yet send your kid to his camp?
Classic. He hates Crean, he can't coach or recruit so he sends his own son to a Crean camp. Incredible.
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Classic. He hates Crean, he can't coach or recruit so he sends his own son to a Crean camp. Incredible.
That is funny......
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So this begs the question . . .
Why would you send your son to his camp in the first place? Seriously--you hate the man. You claim he's both a lousy coach and a lousy person.
Yet, you send YOUR SON--who apparently has options as a player an a "pretty elite" AAU league-- to attend TOM CREAN'S BASKETBALL CAMP??? Of all the basketball camps across the country, you choose the camp run by the one guy you hate more than anyone else in basketball?
I'm sorry, but I don't get it. You hate the guy, and there are plenty of other options--yet send your kid to his camp?
you obviosly did not read my post about the camp itself. the camp is not very strong but my boys are huge Marquette fans and they love to go. Therefore they go, i do not put my feeling towards Crean as a person in front of their wanting to go to an Mu basketball camp. They went during Crean and they went last year too. I will always support Mu even though i disliked Crean and I would never stand in the way of my kids going to a camp that they wanted to go to. that is pretty silly what do you want me to do show my disaffection for the guy by not sending my kids.....now thats a statement. ::)
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you obviosly did not read my post about the camp itself. the camp is not very strong but my boys are huge Marquette fans and they love to go. Therefore they go, i do not put my feeling towards Crean as a person in front of their wanting to go to an Mu basketball camp. They went during Crean and they went last year too. I will always support Mu even though i disliked Crean and I would never stand in the way of my kids going to a camp that they wanted to go to. that is pretty silly what do you want me to do show my disaffection for the guy by not sending my kids.....now thats a statement. ::)
I want you to use reasonable punctuation and grammar. That would be a statement.
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So this begs the question . . .
Why would you send your son to his camp in the first place? Seriously--you hate the man. You claim he's both a lousy coach and a lousy person.
Yet, you send YOUR SON--who apparently has options as a player an a "pretty elite" AAU league-- to attend TOM CREAN'S BASKETBALL CAMP??? Of all the basketball camps across the country, you choose the camp run by the one guy you hate more than anyone else in basketball?
I'm sorry, but I don't get it. You hate the guy, and there are plenty of other options--yet send your kid to his camp?
I guess Hayward should have "showed" TC by punishing his kids and keeping them away from the Marquette camp (and their heroes - the MU players). Just like Jimmy Carter "showed" the Russians by punishing our athletes and denying them an opportunity to compete. That certainly would have sent an effective message to his kids.
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I guess Hayward should have "showed" TC by punishing his kids and keeping them away from the Marquette camp (and their heroes - the MU players). Just like Jimmy Carter "showed" the Russians by punishing our athletes and denying them an opportunity to compete. That certainly would have sent an effective message to his kids.
No, he should have sent his kid(s) to a camp not run by a douche bag (his words), not pouring more money into said douche bag's pockets, and given his kid(s) a chance to improve their basketball prospects as it's clear that Crean can't coach (his words), is a horrible human being (his words), etc, etc.
For all of his bitching incessantly for years about Crean, the fact that he sends his kids to Crean's camps is unbelievably PRICELESS on ANY and EVERY LEVEL.
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If my son wanted to go to an MU camp, be on the floor at the AL, converse with the MU players, etc..., I would send him in a minute regardless of what I thought of TC.
For you imply Hayward should have stood in his kid's way and taken a stand on his opinion of TC is a joke.
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No, he should have sent his kid(s) to a camp not run by a douche bag (his words), not pouring more money into said douche bag's pockets, and given his kid(s) a chance to improve their basketball prospects as it's clear that Crean can't coach (his words), is a horrible human being (his words), etc, etc.
For all of his bitching incessantly for years about Crean, the fact that he sends his kids to Crean's camps is unbelievably PRICELESS on ANY and EVERY LEVEL.
Actually, your ally on this and most other subjects (2002 mualum) was the one who called TC a douche and he did it more than once. Check the tape.
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Actually, your ally on this and most other subjects (2002 mualum) was the one who called TC a douche and he did it more than once. Check the tape.
Excuse me, but Hayward has called Crean a douche and worse on 100's of threads here, I wasn't using just this thread as a reference point for Hayward's opinions. Check the tapes
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If my son wanted to go to an MU camp, be on the floor at the AL, converse with the MU players, etc..., I would send him in a minute regardless of what I thought of TC.
For you imply Hayward should have stood in his kid's way and taken a stand on his opinion of TC is a joke.
I wonder why the kid wanted to go to a MU camp and play on the Al (a building that didn't exist until Crean got to MU and took them to the Final Four). And why would he want to converse with MU players, the ones that are such poor players because Crean couldn't recruit and didn't recognize talent....why would his kid want to play with such total rejects when his father has pounded us for years telling us how terrible they are? ;D
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Actually, your ally on this and most other subjects (2002 mualum) was the one who called TC a douche and he did it more than once. Check the tape.
You're right. I called him a douche. I've never said the guy was a saint, which I think is lost on you guys some times. Tom Crean is not perfect. NOBODY HAS EVER SAID THAT. But, people have clearly stated cases of how he was good for MU, and that he's a good D1 coach.
On a personal note, I also think that Bill Belicheck (sp) is a douche, but I'd love it if he coached my football team. Same goes for Thad Motta, who left Xavier after he claimed he wouldn't. Pat Riley also appears to be a huge douche, but has won a lot of games in 3 different cities. Same can be said for Larry Brown.
A lot of top coaches are under the microscope and end up looking "douchey" because they have big egos and are usually just looking out for #1.
My neighbor down the street is the exact opposite of "a douche". He's a great guy. However, I wouldn't want him coaching MU's basketball team.
As far as Hayward's use of the word "douche", he can rightfully deny that. But, he can't deny that he uses poor grammar and hates Tom Crean. Those are indisputable.
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"I wonder why the kid wanted to go to a MU camp and play on the Al (a building that didn't exist until Crean got to MU and took them to the Final Four). And why would he want to converse with MU players, the ones that are such poor players because Crean couldn't recruit and didn't recognize talent....why would his kid want to play with such total rejects when his father has pounded us for years telling us how terrible they are?"
He didn't say his kid had those opinions - he said he did. Maybe his kid has a favorable opinion of the players and TC as a coach. Or maybe his kid just loves the players and could care less about the coach. Maybe he lets his kid form his own opinion of the coach and players, rather than imposing his beliefs.
Again - who is he to step in the way of his child wanting to go to the camp??? If you didn't like TC, but your child wanted to go to the camp, would you prevent him from doing so??? If so, that's pretty lame.
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He gave his son an award as an elite camper, much like other fathers who coach do this all the time in Little League, AYSO, etc. Case in point, my son's Little League team just had the All-Stars voted on. My son made it, as he should of (being honest, he was one of the best players in the league) but the coach put his own son on the team as well and voted him in, not a chance in the world his kid is one of the top 14 kids in the league, he wasn't even top 10 on our own team.
But this stuff happens all the time in the real world and the anti-Crean folks basically tacked that up as another reason he's the anti-Christ. Should he have done it? Nope. But parents do silly things sometimes to boost confidence in their kids, show them their love or whatever their thought process is. Sometimes emotion makes you do silly things for your kids.
Congrats on your son's stellar little league career. Is this chapter 1 in the sequel? How about we call it "Chicos Part Deux: The Next Generation"?
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You're right. I called him a douche. I've never said the guy was a saint, which I think is lost on you guys some times. Tom Crean is not perfect. NOBODY HAS EVER SAID THAT. But, people have clearly stated cases of how he was good for MU, and that he's a good D1 coach.
On a personal note, I also think that Bill Belicheck (sp) is a douche, but I'd love it if he coached my football team. Same goes for Thad Motta, who left Xavier after he claimed he wouldn't. Pat Riley also appears to be a huge douche, but has won a lot of games in 3 different cities. Same can be said for Larry Brown.
A lot of top coaches are under the microscope and end up looking "douchey" because they have big egos and are usually just looking out for #1.
My neighbor down the street is the exact opposite of "a douche". He's a great guy. However, I wouldn't want him coaching MU's basketball team.
As far as Hayward's use of the word "douche", he can rightfully deny that. But, he can't deny that he uses poor grammar and hates Tom Crean. Those are indisputable.
+1
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Congrats on your son's stellar little league career. Is this chapter 1 in the sequel? How about we call it "Chicos Part Deux: The Next Generation"?
That wasn't the point of the post, but rather to show that coaches put their kids onto teams, give them awards, etc all the time when they shouldn't get it. How many times in AYSO, Little League, Pop Warner, softball, PONY, high school, etc teams across the country is the coach's kid playing when he probably shouldn't be? Happens all the damn time. When I was at IU, Bob was putting Pat into the games when he often had no business being in there.
Coaches are people, too, and they do things sometimes out of emotion or love that is not in concert with the reality.
As for my son, he'll play a few more years of ball, maybe high school...his choice. He's good, not great, but he tries hard and is a great kid. If he continues to play, great. If he wants to do something else, that's fine, too. Either way, I'll be there to support him. But rest assured if I thought a coach was a complete douche, a descpicable human being and felt so compelled in those feelings that I would state them publicly for YEARS, I certainly wouldn't send my son to that coach's camp. It makes no sense. You do what you feel is best for your children. Sending them to someone you find contemptable as a human being, how is that helping your children?
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Yes, parents do silly things for their kids, but parents who are coaches should know the position they're in and how their decisions will be scrutinized by other parents. My dad coached me for years, and I never got special treatment. If anything he was harder on me, which I appreciate now. Will Riley look back on those awards believing he honestly deserved them or wonder if he received them for being the coach's kid?
And I applaud Mr. Hayward's decision to put his opinions aside and let his kids go to TC's basketball camp. I'm definitely no Michael Vick fan, but I'd let my kids go to a camp of his if that's what they really wanted, provided there were no seminars on how to be a responsible pet owner or something.
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Again - who is he to step in the way of his child wanting to go to the camp??? If you didn't like TC, but your child wanted to go to the camp, would you prevent him from doing so??? If so, that's pretty lame.
This just in....it's called being a parent. My son may want to go to a rated R movie, too, because it looks cool. But at his age I'm going to say no. If my son wanted to go to a baseball camp where the guy is a complete jerk, a turd, doesn't know what he's doing, etc, etc....I'm going to likely say no and put him in a camp where the coach knows what he is doing, where he's going to learn and not be exposed to someone I would feel is a terrible person that is going to harm him in some way as a mentor, etc.
Or, maybe, just maybe the father in this case has overstated just how poor of a coach he is and how descipable a person he is over the last few years. Just maybe. ::) More than likely the case because I can't imagine sending someone I love (my child) to a man that is such a douche, such a terrible coach, such a terrible human being, such a poor representative of the human race whether my kid wanted to go or not. ;)
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Yes, parents do silly things for their kids, but parents who are coaches should know the position they're in and how their decisions will be scrutinized by other parents. My dad coached me for years, and I never got special treatment. If anything he was harder on me, which I appreciate now. Will Riley look back on those awards believing he honestly deserved them or wonder if he received them for being the coach's kid?
And I applaud Mr. Hayward's decision to put his opinions aside and let his kids go to TC's basketball camp. I'm definitely no Michael Vick fan, but I'd let my kids go to a camp of his if that's what they really wanted, provided there were no seminars on how to be a responsible pet owner or something.
Yes, I agree that many coaches that are parents are very tough on their own kids. Happens all the time, perhaps that's why the guilt comes in when rewarding them with starting positions, all star teams, rewards at camps, or whatever.
And I guess everyone parents differently. There isn't a chance in hell I would let my son go to a Michael Vick camp. I'd be endorsing Michael Vick which I'm not doing with my money. Not a chance in hell.
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This just in....it's called being a parent. My son may want to go to a rated R movie, too, because it looks cool. But at his age I'm going to say no. If my son wanted to go to a baseball camp where the guy is a complete jerk, a turd, doesn't know what he's doing, etc, etc....I'm going to likely say no and put him in a camp where the coach knows what he is doing, where he's going to learn and not be exposed to someone I would feel is a terrible person that is going to harm him in some way as a mentor, etc.
Or, maybe, just maybe the father in this case has overstated just how poor of a coach he is and how descipable a person he is over the last few years. Just maybe. ::) More than likely the case because I can't imagine sending someone I love (my child) to a man that is such a douche, such a terrible coach, such a terrible human being, such a poor representative of the human race whether my kid wanted to go or not. ;)
+1,000
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Yes, I agree that many coaches that are parents are very tough on their own kids.
This was one of the most frustrating things I experienced when coaching. I tried so hard to not look like I was favoring my kids, they sometimes got the short end of the stick. I wouldn't change things, but it was frustrating.
I was, at best, a good baseball player. I stopped playing after I was 15 because I found other things I liked to do. However, I'll never forget that in my last year -- the best season I ever had -- hearing my coach say at the awards banquet, "I think there were several kids on the team who deserved the MVP award. I couldn't decide, so I gave it to my son."
If I were the coach, I would have resolved that situation in exactly the opposite way. I know that experience definitely influenced how I handled coaching my kids. And I'm convinced I did the right thing.
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Perhaps you're exaggerating the situation a little to fit your aggenda. Sure, Hayward may not like the guy, but you insinuating that he thinks TC's a: 1) "despicable human being" and a 2) "poor representative of the human race" - that's quite a reach.
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And I guess everyone parents differently. There isn't a chance in hell I would let my son go to a Michael Vick camp. I'd be endorsing Michael Vick which I'm not doing with my money. Not a chance in hell.
Understandable. Just chalk it up to a silly thing I would do for my kids. ;)
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Perhaps you're exaggerating the situation a little to fit your aggenda. Sure, Hayward may not like the guy, but you insinuating that he thinks TC's a: 1) "despicable human being" and a 2) "poor representative of the human race" - that's quite a reach.
No, he despises him that much. I would venture to say that 75% of all MR.HAYWARD's posts on this board involve some kind of jab at Crean.
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Aren't we losing sight of the fact that the awards ceremony in question happened at the end of the camp?
Perhaps Hayward had a strong personal dislike (I know I did) for Crean beforehand but it reached a fever pitch only after his son attended the camp?
By the way, I encouraged my nephews to attend Marquette Basketball Camp. They idolize Dominic James (and Barro, by the way) and hoped to meet him.
Also, to be perfectly clear, I personally have never said I thought Crean was a horrible coach. I thought his teams were well prepared. I thought he was a totally overrated recruiter and a loathsome person, but I can't say I thought he was a bad coach. I can't think of another person in the public eye who I dislike more, however.
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I think Bob Knight's not the greatest of human beings. But, if he were coaching MU, and my son wanted to go to his camp at the AL, get instruction from what I assume is a variety of coaches, meet and talk with MU players, I would pay for him to go in a heartbeat. It's not like Hayward was sending his kid for one-on-one basketball instruction with TC at a local playground. Quite an over-exaggeration on your part to blast him, all in your support for TC (whom I neither like or dislike).
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I would gladly shake Jimmy Carter's hand.
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I think Bob Knight's not the greatest of human beings. But, if he were coaching MU, and my son wanted to go to his camp at the AL, get instruction from what I assume is a variety of coaches, meet and talk with MU players, I would pay for him to go in a heartbeat. It's not like Hayward was sending his kid for one-on-one basketball instruction with TC at a local playground. Quite an over-exaggeration on your part to blast him, all in your support for TC (whom I neither like or dislike).
I'm inclined to agree with you...
however...
Hayward's clearly demonstrated a pattern of anti-crean postings. I bet he has a few hundred that somehow reference his dislike for TC.
Posting a few hundred times how much you dislike the guy, and then sending your kid to his camp is a little hypocritical.
If Tom Crean is bad enough that you feel the need to post about him a few hundred times, he's probably bad enough that you could/should send your kids to another camp so you don't add more $ to his pockets.
In my opinion, saying you don't like a guy, but sending your kid anyways is different than 300-400 internet postings ripping a guy and sending your kid anyways.
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This just in....it's called being a parent. My son may want to go to a rated R movie, too, because it looks cool. But at his age I'm going to say no. If my son wanted to go to a baseball camp where the guy is a complete jerk, a turd, doesn't know what he's doing, etc, etc....I'm going to likely say no and put him in a camp where the coach knows what he is doing, where he's going to learn and not be exposed to someone I would feel is a terrible person that is going to harm him in some way as a mentor, etc.
Or, maybe, just maybe the father in this case has overstated just how poor of a coach he is and how descipable a person he is over the last few years. Just maybe. ::) More than likely the case because I can't imagine sending someone I love (my child) to a man that is such a douche, such a terrible coach, such a terrible human being, such a poor representative of the human race whether my kid wanted to go or not. ;)
If you really think your son's first R rated movie (or first anything of consequence, including but not limited to cigarettes, alchohol, pot and Playboy) will occur with your knowledge and consent you are delusional. Just as it's every parent's job to set limits, it's every healty kid's job to test them.
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A few things:
1) It's not like he's going - hypocritical would be if he was going for himself. It's for his son who wanted to go.
2) I assume there is the whole MU coaching staff there - maybe others? Why is the whole reason for him not to go all about TC all in protest of him? Maybe the other benefits of the camp for his son outweigh his own personal dislike for TC. Playing at the AL, other coach's instruction, interaction with MU players, living in the dorms (?), etc...
3) I would think the $ go to MU, not into TC's pocket.
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If you REALLy think Crean spent all that much time at his own camp, I got news for you.
These camps are great money makers for the coaches, but most coaches barely appear at these camps that bear their names. Asst coaches, coaches from smaller programs and former players are the ones who really run the camps and give all the instruction.
I'd be willing to bet that at the awards program at the end of camp was the most those kids had seen of Crean at one stretch the entire week (where he gave all those awards to his own son).
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I'm inclined to agree with you...
however...
Hayward's clearly demonstrated a pattern of anti-crean postings. I bet he has a few hundred that somehow reference his dislike for TC.
Posting a few hundred times how much you dislike the guy, and then sending your kid to his camp is a little hypocritical.
If Tom Crean is bad enough that you feel the need to post about him a few hundred times, he's probably bad enough that you could/should send your kids to another camp so you don't add more $ to his pockets.
In my opinion, saying you don't like a guy, but sending your kid anyways is different than 300-400 internet postings ripping a guy and sending your kid anyways.
they go to 4-5 camps each summer. they are all elite camps very intense high energy camps for "non-beginners". They go to the MU camp to mingle and associate with their heroes and it is their favorite camp for that reason. I am bigger than that to not send them there due to personal reasons. Crean was there 5 minutes a day and maybe 15 on the last day. Any parent who would not send them to something they wanted to go to and would cause them no harm is petty and immature.
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I'd be willing to bet that at the awards program at the end of camp was the most those kids had seen of Crean at one stretch the entire week (where he gave all those awards to his own son).
I would also be willing to bet that Crean did not select who would receive the awards.
I'm not excusing him though, because he should have made sure that this didn't happen. I remember this coming up in a prior thread on this point and I agree with whoever said that Crean should have told the camp staff to not give any awards to his kid -- or at most give him one award.
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Perhaps you're exaggerating the situation a little to fit your aggenda. Sure, Hayward may not like the guy, but you insinuating that he thinks TC's a: 1) "despicable human being" and a 2) "poor representative of the human race" - that's quite a reach.
Why is it a reach....he only has about 250 posts in the last 24 months verifying that's exactly how he feels and even uses those exact words.
If anyone's agenda has been cooked, it's been Hayward's with this revelation. A classic step in a big, steamy pile of crap on his part.
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If you really think your son's first R rated movie (or first anything of consequence, including but not limited to cigarettes, alchohol, pot and Playboy) will occur with your knowledge and consent you are delusional. Just as it's every parent's job to set limits, it's every healty kid's job to test them.
Where did I ever say I don't expect him to push the limits, do his own thing? Of course he will. But at his current age, without transportation, without money, he's not going to be able to go to a rated R movie, a baseball camp, a basketball camp, or anything else that requires $$$ and/or transportation without his parents knowing. Period.
He needs not only my tacit approval but more.
You guys are all missing the greater point. Hayward has crapcanned Crean for 2 straight years calling him a horrible human being, a descipable human being, an unethical human being, a horrible coach, a terrible coach, a coach who couldn't coach himself out of a wet paper bag, etc (I could go on, but those are just a few of his words) and he turns around and sends his own kid to a Tom Crean basketball camp.
I'm sorry, but that's just PRICELESS.
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they go to 4-5 camps each summer. they are all elite camps very intense high energy camps for "non-beginners". They go to the MU camp to mingle and associate with their heroes and it is their favorite camp for that reason. I am bigger than that to not send them there due to personal reasons. Crean was there 5 minutes a day and maybe 15 on the last day. Any parent who would not send them to something they wanted to go to and would cause them no harm is petty and immature.
Hmmm... I really want to drop this discussion... but I do have 1 more question:
If Crean was only there for 20 minutes total, why are you blasting him for the awards? Don't you think he had somebody else "evaluate" the kids and just give him the list of award winners?
I'm not trying to make an excuse for the guy, but you seem to only blame him for what when wrong with the awards when he wasn't even there.
If you want to be critical of anything, be critical that he wasn't there enough. Don't complain about the awards, TC probably didn't even do them (just read them).
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I think Bob Knight's not the greatest of human beings. But, if he were coaching MU, and my son wanted to go to his camp at the AL, get instruction from what I assume is a variety of coaches, meet and talk with MU players, I would pay for him to go in a heartbeat. It's not like Hayward was sending his kid for one-on-one basketball instruction with TC at a local playground. Quite an over-exaggeration on your part to blast him, all in your support for TC (whom I neither like or dislike).
It has nothing to do with support of Crean. Hey, I applaud Crean for what he did at MU, the second best coach in MU history. That's all. I just chime in when people say really stupid things that are factually untrue, basically 85% of Hayward's comments. Big difference. Hayward can do whatever he wants with his kids, but the irony of him send his own kids to a Tom Crean camp is PRICELESS.
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Hmmm... I really want to drop this discussion... but I do have 1 more question:
If Crean was only there for 20 minutes total, why are you blasting him for the awards? Don't you think he had somebody else "evaluate" the kids and just give him the list of award winners?
I'm not trying to make an excuse for the guy, but you seem to only blame him for what when wrong with the awards when he wasn't even there.
If you want to be critical of anything, be critical that he wasn't there enough. Don't complain about the awards, TC probably didn't even do them (just read them).
This is the point I addressed above, so I'll venture a guess as to what is answer is going to be. Crean should have told those who selected the recipients of the awards to not give them to his son. Or, at the very least, should have limited it. That's what I'd like to think I'd do if I were in Crean's shoes.
This does raise the possibility that Crean might have been mortified by all the awards. He might have awarded what was written to avoid embarassing his staff and coaches, but he might have ripped them a new one behind closed doors. Did this ever happen again in subsequent camps?
Edited to add: I'm not saiying that this happened. I have no idea . But I wonder if this was a one-time thing (one time too many) or if it has happened at multiple camps.
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This is the point I addressed above, so I'll venture a guess as to what is answer is going to be. Crean should have told those who selected the recipients of the awards to not give them to his son. Or, at the very least, should have limited it. That's what I'd like to think I'd do if I were in Crean's shoes.
This does raise the possibility that Crean might have been mortified by all the awards. He might have awarded what was written to avoid embarassing his staff and coaches, but he might have ripped them a new one behind closed doors. Did this ever happen again in subsequent camps?
Edited to add: I'm not saiying that this happened. I have no idea . But I wonder if this was a one-time thing (one time too many) or if it has happened at multiple camps.
Agreed.
I'll go 1 step backwards, and just say, "How can you hold the guy responsible for everything when he's only there for 20min.?"
The answer is really, "Then he should be there for more of the camp." (which I agree with).
BUT, I want to point out that maybe the Riley thing is probably just a symptom that Tom Crean isn't at his basketball camp enough to ensure that the entire camp runs well (including the awards). It's not a symptom that he is a horrible human being that gives his son everything.
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I would also be willing to bet that Crean did not select who would receive the awards.
I'm not excusing him though, because he should have made sure that this didn't happen. I remember this coming up in a prior thread on this point and I agree with whoever said that Crean should have told the camp staff to not give any awards to his kid -- or at most give him one award.
TC is notoriously hard on his assistants. If they selected the award winners, I'd bet someone in advance gave them the "It's Riley, It's Riley" speech. Wonder who?
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TC is notoriously hard on his assistants. If they selected the award winners, I'd bet someone in advance gave them the "It's Riley, It's Riley" speech. Wonder who?
You're absolutely right.
Part of Crean's 20min at the camp was to make sure that Riley won everything. He is notoriously hard on everybody who works for him (so hard that they run off for other jobs), but he doesn't push his son, Riley at all. He hands everything to him, including all of the camper awards.
This isn't surprising, I've seen this 1000 times before.
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please guys it is not that hard...it was the third camp of the year. If riley is so good he sweeps the awards dont you think that my have been an issue in the first 2 camps ( yes the coaches kids go to all the camps) or an issue in the years past?
Or if not dont you ( i darn well know i would HAve) the second or third time you sons name comes up quickly turn off the mic and bring over a counselor and say " who was your best...." turn the mic back on and say that kids name? Please lets not be so dense.
How about doing what most fathers would do and make it known ... "no awards for my kid"
simple ...dont make it so hard
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Maybe we should just twitter the SOB douche bag and ax him WTF he was thinking about?
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You're absolutely right.
Part of Crean's 20min at the camp was to make sure that Riley won everything. He is notoriously hard on everybody who works for him (so hard that they run off for other jobs), but he doesn't push his son, Riley at all. He hands everything to him, including all of the camper awards.
This isn't surprising, I've seen this 1000 times before.
+1. FYI, you accidently hit the teal button.