NBA Thread 2020-21

[MuggsyB]

It's a really tough question but at the time of their draft I did think Morant would be a better pro than Zion.  Mainly because of the position he plays and the fact that he would constantly have the ball in his hands.  But Zion is so explosive and did trim down a bit.  Frankly I'm not sure who I take between the two.  Does Williamson make his teammates better?

[MU82]

It's a really tough question but at the time of their draft I did think Morant would be a better pro than Zion.  Mainly because of the position he plays and the fact that he would constantly have the ball in his hands.  But Zion is so explosive and did trim down a bit.  Frankly I'm not sure who I take between the two.  Does Williamson make his teammates better?

Given the choice today, I’d definitely take Morant. More important position, and less likely to break down physically.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Given the choice today, I’d definitely take Morant. More important position, and less likely to break down physically.

Yeah except the Derrick Rose example should give you concern that he is one injury away from being pretty run of the mill.  I give Rose a lot of credit for figuring out how to be effective coming back from injury.

[JWags85]

Given the choice today, I’d definitely take Morant. More important position, and less likely to break down physically.

Id agree with you.  I think Morant's ceiling is pretty dang high.  I'd be shocked if he's not a perennial All Star provided he doesn't get hurt.  He's fearless, he knows his game well, and he has a savvy to him already.

The thing with Zion though, that has me very high on him, is beyond just being only 20, he still feels like he's figuring the game out.  Like learning how to be a complete player that is not just a physical freak.  Which would be normal...if he didn't just average 27/7/4 in his second season.   Thats insane.  I think a decent comp is Julius Randle, who is another slightly undersized, yet bruising PF.  He was a decent but instinctive player relying on athleticism for the first chunk of his career until it clicked recently.  Also, Randle went from a terrible outside shooter on a few attempts to shooting 40% on 5 attempts a game this year.  If Zion can develop an outside shot like that?   Good lord.  His health will be a question, especially ankles and knees, but training and maintenance is so good these days, who knows what can be prevented.

Yeah except the Derrick Rose example should give you concern that he is one injury away from being pretty run of the mill.  I give Rose a lot of credit for figuring out how to be effective coming back from injury.

There were also a ton of external factors that hurt Rose.  Plenty of players tear an ACL and return just fine.  Rose's brother, some mental hesitancy, and the fact that he never took care of himself for the majority of his early 20s, diet and training wise, contributed to his fall off as well.  He grew and matured a lot after leaving Chicago which has lead to this second act.

[Pakuni]

Trae spit on by a fan last night.  Westbrook has popcorn dumped on him by a fan last night.  Fans were really stir crazy and letting loose now that covid is over!

The Philly fan has had his season tickets revoked and been banned from the arena indefinitely. With any luck, he'll also face a criminal charge.

[jficke13]

The Philly fan has had his season tickets revoked and been banned from the arena indefinitely. With any luck, he'll also face a criminal charge.

I think we need to pass a law that if you go at a pro athlete like this, they are legally free to attack you.

You want to spit/throwstuff at a freak of nature? Best hope you are ready to throw hands, son.

[lawdog77]

The Philly fan has had his season tickets revoked and been banned from the arena indefinitely. With any luck, he'll also face a criminal charge.

How do they enforce this? Facial recognition?

[MuggsyB]

I haven't watched much NBA until the playoffs but Zion's stats are certainly very impressive.  I'm wondering though why that team didn't do better?  They seem to have talent.  Morant looks to me like a kid who can be excellent defensively like a J.   Holiday.  I'm not really interested in all the stats when comparing these guys, I'm asking myself who is more likely to lead a team to a title or deep in the playoffs? 

I think I would probably go with Morant because he seems to have all the intangibles and leadership qualities as well.  He clearly makes players better around him. 

[Pakuni]

How do they enforce this? Facial recognition?

I doubt it. They can probably stop him from buying tickets under his name. Beyond that, I'm sure it's more of a deterrent thing, as in "We can't stop you from coming in, but if we catch you, we'll have you arrested for trespassing."

[Warrior Code]

Id agree with you.  I think Morant's ceiling is pretty dang high.  I'd be shocked if he's not a perennial All Star provided he doesn't get hurt.  He's fearless, he knows his game well, and he has a savvy to him already.

The thing with Zion though, that has me very high on him, is beyond just being only 20, he still feels like he's figuring the game out.  Like learning how to be a complete player that is not just a physical freak.  Which would be normal...if he didn't just average 27/7/4 in his second season.   Thats insane.  I think a decent comp is Julius Randle, who is another slightly undersized, yet bruising PF.  He was a decent but instinctive player relying on athleticism for the first chunk of his career until it clicked recently.  Also, Randle went from a terrible outside shooter on a few attempts to shooting 40% on 5 attempts a game this year.  If Zion can develop an outside shot like that?   Good lord.  His health will be a question, especially ankles and knees, but training and maintenance is so good these days, who knows what can be prevented.

There were also a ton of external factors that hurt Rose.  Plenty of players tear an ACL and return just fine.  Rose's brother, some mental hesitancy, and the fact that he never took care of himself for the majority of his early 20s, diet and training wise, contributed to his fall off as well.  He grew and matured a lot after leaving Chicago which has lead to this second act.

Wags, I agree with all this.
Morant is special. There's nothing on the court he can't do, and he's only going to improve over time. The injury thing does scare me a bit, but I think part of that is D Rose's injury still feels very recent in my mind... even though it was nearly a decade ago.

Zion is so unique. Nobody in the league can build a head of steam like he can. When his jumper starts falling at a higher clip, the entire side of the court is going to open up for him. These two are electric and will be fun to watch for a long time.

As for Rose, as a Bulls fan I (like so many others) was so disappointed he never became what we all thought/hoped he would. Hometown kid, youngest MVP, perennial playoff clashes with LeBron? YES PLEASE. That said, I think getting out of Chicago was the best thing for him. He had a lot of hangers-on in the city and getting outside his childhood circle has let him mature and secure a pretty nice career. He's never going to be an MVP-caliber player again, but he's still a guy that can get 20+ on any given night. 

[MU82]

Id agree with you.  I think Morant's ceiling is pretty dang high.  I'd be shocked if he's not a perennial All Star provided he doesn't get hurt.  He's fearless, he knows his game well, and he has a savvy to him already.

The thing with Zion though, that has me very high on him, is beyond just being only 20, he still feels like he's figuring the game out.  Like learning how to be a complete player that is not just a physical freak.  Which would be normal...if he didn't just average 27/7/4 in his second season.   Thats insane.  I think a decent comp is Julius Randle, who is another slightly undersized, yet bruising PF.  He was a decent but instinctive player relying on athleticism for the first chunk of his career until it clicked recently.  Also, Randle went from a terrible outside shooter on a few attempts to shooting 40% on 5 attempts a game this year.  If Zion can develop an outside shot like that?   Good lord.  His health will be a question, especially ankles and knees, but training and maintenance is so good these days, who knows what can be prevented.

There were also a ton of external factors that hurt Rose.  Plenty of players tear an ACL and return just fine.  Rose's brother, some mental hesitancy, and the fact that he never took care of himself for the majority of his early 20s, diet and training wise, contributed to his fall off as well.  He grew and matured a lot after leaving Chicago which has lead to this second act.

Agree with all of this.

Sure, Morant could get injured going to the hoop or in other ways. Any athlete can, but yes he plays all-out and takes it to the rim hard. But Wade, Kemba, Iverson, Jordan and others did so as well ... and while each had an injury or two, they weren't ruined by this style of play. They also adjusted as they got older, learned to be great without taking it to the rim all the time.

Zion carries a lot of weight and plays in a way in which he stresses his body a lot. He already has had long stretches on the sideline during his college and pro career, and that's worrisome to me. But I remember similar being said about Barkley, who ended up being a star for years with relatively few injuries. Agree with you that he is an impressive athlete with skill who could become incredible if he develops a perimeter game.

Really, I'd take 'em both!

[JWags85]

The Philly fan has had his season tickets revoked and been banned from the arena indefinitely. With any luck, he'll also face a criminal charge.

I can see that for the dude who spit on Trae Young, but a criminal charge for dumping popcorn? Assault by kernel?  Everything done with regards to his ticket and arena privileges makes total sense, but nothing he did could cause actual physical harm.  Its less than even throwing a drink or water.

That said, I think getting out of Chicago was the best thing for him. He had a lot of hangers-on in the city and getting outside his childhood circle has let him mature and secure a pretty nice career. He's never going to be an MVP-caliber player again, but he's still a guy that can get 20+ on any given night. 

I mean it as no intentional disrespect, but while he seemed like a fairly polite and decent dude, I always got the impression D Rose is not very bright and had a severe lack of self awareness and perception.  Which made him ripe for bad influence from many people in Chicago.  I think if he had the exact same experience, injury wise, elsewhere and without his overbearing brother, it could have been a totally different story.

[Jockey]

I can see that for the dude who spit on Trae Young, but a criminal charge for dumping popcorn? Assault by kernel?  Everything done with regards to his ticket and arena privileges makes total sense, but nothing he did could cause actual physical harm.  Its less than even throwing a drink or water.

I disagree. A fan has no right to physically interact with a player. Makes no difference if he is dropping popcorn or an anvil on a players head.

By saying “nothing he did could cause actual physical harm”, you are giving the OK for all kinds of damage. Should a fan be allowed to verbally sexually harass a WNBA player? It’s not causing any physical harm.

Yes, I realize that I am taking this to a step you aren’t and wouldn’t endorse. But the degree of harassment isn’t important.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

I disagree. A fan has no right to physically interact with a player. Makes no difference if he is dropping popcorn or an anvil on a players head.

By saying “nothing he did could cause actual physical harm”, you are giving the OK for all kinds of damage. Should a fan be allowed to verbally sexually harass a WNBA player? It’s not causing any physical harm.

Yes, I realize that I am taking this to a step you aren’t and wouldn’t endorse. But the degree of harassment isn’t important.

So you think criminal charges are warranted?

[4everwarriors]

Morant is already twice the player Herro is, but sure.

Yeah butt iz he bedder dan yo hommie, Ball, hey?

[MU82]

Yeah butt iz he bedder dan yo hommie, Ball, hey?

At many things, yes.

For one thing, defense is totally optional for LaMelo right now, whereas Ja seems willing and able to be a defensive disruptor.

Ja is better at putting himself in position to score, quicker and more explosive.

When it comes to court vision and passing ability, LaMelo is gifted and has great imagination, kind of Larry Bird-like. One thing that surprises me is that, so far in their young careers, LaMelo has been the better 3-point shooter.

[Jockey]

So you think criminal charges are warranted?

Under a strict interpretation of the law, they may be.

Would I charge him if I was a local DA? No.

Should he be permanently banned from the arena? Yes, I think he should. I am generally against zero tolerance policies, but ANY physical interaction with a player on the court or field should have consequences.

[Pakuni]

I can see that for the dude who spit on Trae Young, but a criminal charge for dumping popcorn? Assault by kernel?  Everything done with regards to his ticket and arena privileges makes total sense, but nothing he did could cause actual physical harm.  Its less than even throwing a drink or water.

I don't know the statutes in Pennsylvania, but in Illinois, misdemeanor battery is defined as:
"Knowingly without legal justification by any means (1) causes bodily harm to an individual or (2) makes physical contact of an insulting or provoking nature with an individual."

Being showered with popcorn from above absolutely can constitute contact of an insulting or provoking nature, and the statute reads "by any means," so it can be done with an object just as much as a fist or foot. And, there doesn't seem to be any claim that this wasn't done knowlngly.

If not battery, disorderly conduct also applies. That statute reads, in part, that a person is guilty of disorderly conduct through "any act in such unreasonable manner as to alarm or disturb another and to provoke a breach of the peace."

Again, I don't know Pennsylvania law and I'm not going to look it up right now, but I doubt their statutes are vastly different.

[Pakuni]

So you think criminal charges are warranted?

100%.
Besides serving as mechanisms to define what's illegal, enact justice and punish offenders, criminal laws exist to serve as a deterrent to unwelcome behavior that is against the public good. Deterrence literally is written into states' criminal codes.
Make an example of this guy.

[jficke13]

Dude, I would have thought you to be more sympathetic to the "America wildly overcriminalizes minor acts, and that leads to a ballooning and out of control carceral state, which contrbutes in no small part to the current moment of civic unrest" and want some dang discretion exercised.

Sometimes people are jackwagons. Sometimes jackwagons can be punished in ways that don't involve running to the dang criminal justice system.

Are you trolling us?

[Pakuni]

Dude, I would have thought you to be more sympathetic to the "America wildly overcriminalizes minor acts, and that leads to a ballooning and out of control carceral state, which contrbutes in no small part to the current moment of civic unrest" and want some dang discretion exercised.

Sometimes people are jackwagons. Sometimes jackwagons can be punished in ways that don't involve running to the dang criminal justice system.

Are you trolling us?

I'm going to guess a misdemeanor or ordinance violation charge isn't going to clog up the courts. We're talking about a guy here who has lower level season tickets to an NBA team. This isn't going to  trap him in the criminal justice system and overcrowd our jails. He's going to show up in court and pay a fine.
Deterrence matters.

[MUfan12]

So you think criminal charges are warranted?

A salt and buttery.

[ATL MU Warrior]

A salt and buttery.

Awesome. Literally LOL’d

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

A salt and buttery.

This is just awesome.

[JWags85]

I don't know the statutes in Pennsylvania, but in Illinois, misdemeanor battery is defined as:
"Knowingly without legal justification by any means (1) causes bodily harm to an individual or (2) makes physical contact of an insulting or provoking nature with an individual."

Being showered with popcorn from above absolutely can constitute contact of an insulting or provoking nature, and the statute reads "by any means," so it can be done with an object just as much as a fist or foot. And, there doesn't seem to be any claim that this wasn't done knowlngly.

If not battery, disorderly conduct also applies. That statute reads, in part, that a person is guilty of disorderly conduct through "any act in such unreasonable manner as to alarm or disturb another and to provoke a breach of the peace."

Again, I don't know Pennsylvania law and I'm not going to look it up right now, but I doubt their statutes are vastly different.

I have no issue with a disorderly conduct citation.  “Criminal charges” felt more like assault or battery.  Battery feels like a VERY liberal reading of that statute.  If someone pursued a battery charge against someone that tossed a cup of water at them in an argument at a restaurant, we’d all deem it absurd.  Might as well slap it on the next person who throws a paper airplane that lands near an opposing bench. Insulting and provoking behavior if I say so myself.