MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: GoldenDieners32 on March 10, 2017, 07:06:46 PM
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Who do you guys/girls think the best transfer we've had?
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Id say from an impact standpoint probably Robert Jackson.
Trent Lockett from a need for that team.
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Jim Boylan is right up there. Was a big factor in winning the NCAAs in 1977.
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If JUCOs count, well they were transfers:
Whitehead
Walton
Crowder
Butler
DJO
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I always forget guys like Jae, DJO and JFB were transfers.
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If JUCOs count, well they were transfers:
Whitehead
Walton
Crowder
Butler
DJO
Lackey
Cobb
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nyg
Not bad list. Our history with transfers and Juco's is off the charts. There is a top 30 list, not a top 5. But, Whitehead and Lloyd would be anyone's list.
Boylan is high on list and reluctantly I would add UP to the top 30 list.
My son and I literally were having this conversation over cocktails tonight. To really put a list together it would need to be Al and post Al.
Post Al I am a Robert Jackson fan, but doubt if he makes my top 30 list.
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To the younger folks,
This thread is geared to folks that know MU ball and know it well. Sit back and learn something.
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Goose is top 10 transfer.
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Lackey
Cobb
Ah, yes.....too many to remember. I thought Marcus Washington and O'Neil, but they were hs grads straight to MU.
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nyg
I was never a Marcus fan, but hard not to mention him. Black Swan and Ric are two of my favorites. Ric is a fantastic guy and think the world of him.
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Cloud Piercer, Groovy, Grasshopper, Ron Curry, David Boone, Sir Walter, Sam.
Actually would say Curry was big time program changer post Al.
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nyg
I was never a Marcus fan, but hard not to mention him. Black Swan and Ric are two of my favorites. Ric is a fantastic guy and think the world of him.
Marcus was underrated and had a great career, 1973 team when he was a junior and 1974 team with Lucas, Tatum, Bo, and Walton, well wow. He was also very laid back and nice guy.
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nyg
Know the Marcus story/career well. Thought he was a weak link in both of those of teams. Good guy, but not my kind of player.
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nyg
Know the Marcus story/career well. Thought he was a weak link in both of those of teams. Good guy, but not my kind of player.
We really had no weak links back then though....have times changed, uh? That's a different topic.
But the quality of players brought up is sick. Worthen, Boone, Downing, Curry. Forgot completely.
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nyg
Us older guys were very lucky. Was laughing with my son tonight while telling him that 4 of top 8 guys on '77 were transfers. Nobody transferred back then, but Al found the right pieces.
Every year we found a Juco or transfer and they always fit in. Many should not have been at MU academically but almost all graduated.
IMO us not taking risky kids is far worse than taking a gamble on a kid who struggles.
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I believe this player was a JCer---Sam Worthen, 6-5 from Brooklyn,
N.Y. (Franklin Lane)--1978-1979 and 1979-1980. Good scorer--smooooth.
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David Boone. Power Forward from Saint Mary's.
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nyg
Us older guys were very lucky. Was laughing with my son tonight while telling him that 4 of top 8 guys on '77 were transfers. Nobody transferred back then, but Al found the right pieces.
Every year we found a Juco or transfer and they always fit in. Many should not have been at MU academically but almost all graduated.
IMO us not taking risky kids is far worse than taking a gamble on a kid who struggles.
Made friends with many of them and academics was not their strong point, but majority graduated, Walton got PHD down the line and other successes. Too many have passed away. In my four years MU lost 14 games total.....fun. Thanks to those transfers. Enough back to topic..........
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#4 from Ft. Wayne, Indiana Benny Moore.
nyg
Losing was not accepted during your time at MU. I am younger than you, but remember your era quote well.
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Crowder. Big East player of the year in the old conference. Led the team to sweet 16, drafted in the NBA, and still playing/contributing to a team.
Edit: this is in my lifetime which only spans from the 1980s. Can't comment on or compare anyone from before then personally.
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Super Sammy Worthen was one of my all-time favorite players. Great transfer. All-American.
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David Boone was top five post Al guy in my book. Rebounding machine and I love rebounders. I mean, real rebounders.
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Bob Lackey and Larry McNeil.
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Tyrone Baldwin in the early 90's was a good transfer.
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We would of been unbelievely bad two years ago without Carlino.
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I enjoyed watching Jim Dudley leap. He transferred from Michigan State.
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Cloud Piercer, Groovy, Grasshopper, Ron Curry, David Boone, Sir Walter, Sam.
Actually would say Curry was big time program changer post Al.
I forgot all about Artie.
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in my time at MU, Walter Downing transferred from Depaul to MU....so much expectation for big Walter but we never made the tourney and if I recall he had pretty damaged knees and a bad back. He was so highly touted out of high school though. The two highlights I remember most were his sheer joy in the final moments at the MECCA when we beat DePaul and on senior night when he played the national anthem on bass guitar (although that may have been a chemical induced hallucination on my part).
And I agree with prior posts...Boone was an absolute beast.
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I forgot all about Artie.
The anti-gravity man!
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in my time at MU, Walter Downing transferred from Depaul to MU....so much expectation for big Walter but we never made the tourney and if I recall he had pretty damaged knees and a bad back. He was so highly touted out of high school though. The two highlights I remember most were his sheer joy in the final moments at the MECCA when we beat DePaul and on senior night when he played the national anthem on bass guitar (although that may have been a chemical induced hallucination on my part).
And I agree with prior posts...Boone was an absolute beast.
Saw him at the Alumni Game
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David Boone was top five post Al guy in my book. Rebounding machine and I love rebounders. I mean, real rebounders.
Right on Goose!!!!!!
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bilsu
Big Matt fan in many ways. Good call.
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I used to go to MU's open practices as a kid when Hank was the coach. then Rick. Walter Downing was fun to watch, very nice guy. But the big man I remember that used to eat everyone up in practice was Llyod Moore. He was a beast and he had elbows like knives. But he was a headcase. Then he broke his foot and he never recovered mentally at Marquette.
Too bad, because we really needed a big man back then. Schlundt was gone and Downing was still at DePaul I believe.
I don't know if Moore was a transfer though.
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Cloud Piercer, Groovy, Grasshopper, Ron Curry, David Boone, Sir Walter, Sam.
Actually would say Curry was big time program changer post Al.
Ron Curry was my first thought, he delivered the goods.
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David Boone
You questioning my Benny Moore shout out?
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David Boone
You questioning my Benny Moore shout out?
No. I'm talking about Llyod Moore. Read the whole post.
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David
Lloyd was Dapper Dan, not transfer. My bad.
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great posts all around-brought back a lot of good memories and got me to check out some old stories- :)
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We would of been unbelievely bad two years ago without Carlino.
Carlino would have been a marquette legend had the team been good when he came.
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We forgot Rob Jackson and Jamil Wilson.
Plus, Goose (aka Little Bro) if we go with Benny Moore then we have to include Kevin Johnson as well. Back court mates.
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We forgot Rob Jackson and Jamil Wilson.
Jackson was mentioned in the 2nd post of the thread.
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David
Lloyd was Dapper Dan, not transfer. My bad.
Dunkin Dan was more like it.
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H.S. seniors are overrated, transfers are underrated.
Back in the day most of the "players" went to a prep-school or Jr. College. Now we see players moving up from league to league and down scale as well. Remember Division. 1 is a one year contract, Division. 3, where applicable, is a 4 year grant.
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Do Jucos count? I kinda see us as the next progression and those are not true transfers.
In order, I would argue the following:
1) Jim Boylan -- Another poster pointed out his importance to our 1977 team.
2) Ulice Payne --Underrated. Very good, strong power forward. Came from Miami of Ohio.
3) David Boone -- I agree with this one, but those teams never gelled the way they should have.
4) Walter Downing -- Never should have gone to DePaul. Hampered by injury but when he was "on", he was really on. I liked this guy and thought constantly, "what if..."
5) Robert Jackson -- Never would have made the Final Four without him!
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Post Al, Dwight Buycks has to make the list. Great skill set, better suited for the NBA.
Lil Bit and Jake make my Super Sub team. Both forced into more prominent roles, both won or kept us in some key games. Jake got a rap his senior year, but Mayo should have been the starter. He hit some Major Nads shots versus Cuse and Butler (Maui, would have been the game winner yet Clarke's buzzer beater runner), and as a diversion versus Davidson.
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I don't think Jamil Wilson needs to be mentioned in a best transfer list. I'll go ahead and say Dan Fitzgerald if we're mentioning Wilson.
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dgies
Great back story on why Walter went to DePaul first. He was a true Warrior, even if he went to DePaul first.
PTM
Jamil belongs on the list. Maybe did not live up to expectations, but he was a very talented player.
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David
Lloyd was Dapper Dan, not transfer. My bad.
True. Bad legs and too healthy appetite doomed Lloyd. Toothpicks supporting a potato.
David Boone terrific. Sad that my most lasting memory of Boone (with a disappointing Downing on that team-we were all so hopeful that he would be what Lloyd wasn't; Downing was fine, but never what DePaul and then MU hoped) missing potential game clinching FT at ND my senior year. 10 seconds left and we were up 2. And then lost. 0-6 vs ND my 4 years.
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DB2, good to see you on the scoop board. My immersion in MU hoops began in 1984. I knew MU was good prior, but I was young and wasn't obsessed with it in the 70's and early 80's, so I won't speak to transfers prior to 1984.
JUCO's: Just about anybody Buzz landed with the exception of Fulce. Benny Moore. Jamil Lott.
Grad Transfers: We've only had 3. Each had his virtues and I am grateful for all 3. With a gun to my head, I would rank them Carlino, Katin, Lockett.
Traditional transfers: David Boone. Robert Jackson. Ron Curry. Rowsey is creeping up the charts. Luke Fischer
Transfers whose performance failed to equal the hype: Mike Davis, Walter Downing, Jamil Wilson, Mike Kinsella, Dan Fitzgerald, Trend Blackledge.
On balance, MU has gained more than it has lost due to transfers. If a separate thread was started about transfers out that hurt the team and went on to success elsewhere, I would say the most painful were Odartey, Jeronne (stupid dad), and Deonte.
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dgies
Great back story on why Walter went to DePaul first. He was a true Warrior, even if he went to DePaul first.
PTM
Jamil belongs on the list. Maybe did not live up to expectations, but he was a very talented player.
I'll give you talent, massively talented. Great person too, just couldn't turn that into being a player.
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DB2, good to see you on the scoop board. My immersion in MU hoops began in 1984. I knew MU was good prior, but I was young and wasn't obsessed with it in the 70's and early 80's, so I won't speak to transfers prior to 1984.
JUCO's: Just about anybody Buzz landed with the exception of Fulce. Benny Moore. Jamil Lott.
Grad Transfers: We've only had 3. Each had his virtues and I am grateful for all 3. With a gun to my head, I would rank them Carlino, Katin, Lockett.
Traditional transfers: David Boone. Robert Jackson. Ron Curry. Rowsey is creeping up the charts. Luke Fischer
Transfers whose performance failed to equal the hype: Mike Davis, Walter Downing, Jamil Wilson, Mike Kinsella, Dan Fitzgerald, Trend Blackledge.
On balance, MU has gained more than it has lost due to transfers. If a separate thread was started about transfers out that hurt the team and went on to success elsewhere, I would say the most painful were Odartey, Jeronne (stupid dad), and Deonte.
How have you forgotten the Mike Kinsella Game?
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Always heard that if Odartey stayed, Marquette would have had a legitimate shot at a National Championship.
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How have you forgotten the Mike Kinsella Game?
Or Jamil Lott for off the court.
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Or Jamil Lott for off the court.
Yeahhhhh.....
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DB2, good to see you on the scoop board. My immersion in MU hoops began in 1984. I knew MU was good prior, but I was young and wasn't obsessed with it in the 70's and early 80's, so I won't speak to transfers prior to 1984.
JUCO's: Just about anybody Buzz landed with the exception of Fulce. Benny Moore. Jamil Lott.
Grad Transfers: We've only had 3. Each had his virtues and I am grateful for all 3. With a gun to my head, I would rank them Carlino, Katin, Lockett.
Traditional transfers: David Boone. Robert Jackson. Ron Curry. Rowsey is creeping up the charts. Luke Fischer
Transfers whose performance failed to equal the hype: Mike Davis, Walter Downing, Jamil Wilson, Mike Kinsella, Dan Fitzgerald, Trend Blackledge.
On balance, MU has gained more than it has lost due to transfers. If a separate thread was started about transfers out that hurt the team and went on to success elsewhere, I would say the most painful were Odartey, Jeronne (stupid dad), and Deonte.
Not technically a transfer but Jim Chones going to the ABA potentially cost us a National Championship. I would have done the same thing as Jim, so not a criticism of him; just saying.
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Yeahhhhh.....
Crean whiffed on his JUCOs, but it didn't certainly stop him from overhyping them when he whiffed on his high school targets and they were his fall backs.
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Chones was before my time. I am choosing to not comment on players I didn't see. Kinsella had one good game in 2 years. Another of Crean's mis-fires. Jamil Lott off court? I have not heard those legends/rumors.
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Jamil Lott off court? I have not heard those legends/rumors.
http://www.marquette.edu/alumni/awards-2014/recipient_lott.php
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Crean whiffed on his JUCOs, but it didn't certainly stop him from overhyping them when he whiffed on his high school targets and they were his fall backs.
Lott was super jacked, I'll give Crean that?
I liked Marcus Jackson, just had to play point center too often.
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in my time at MU, Walter Downing transferred from Depaul to MU....so much expectation for big Walter but we never made the tourney and if I recall he had pretty damaged knees and a bad back. He was so highly touted out of high school though. The two highlights I remember most were his sheer joy in the final moments at the MECCA when we beat DePaul and on senior night when he played the national anthem on bass guitar (although that may have been a chemical induced hallucination on my part).
And I agree with prior posts...Boone was an absolute beast.
Downing had one leg that was shorter than the other, leading to back issues. Great player!
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If we're talking Jamil Wilson, Matt Carlino, Trent Lockett, and Dan Fitzgerald I'll go ahead and guarantee Rowsey will end up with a better MU career than any of those guys.
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If we're talking Jamil Wilson, Matt Carlino, Trent Lockett, and Dan Fitzgerald I'll go ahead and guarantee Rowsey will end up with a better MU career than any of those guys.
Lockett was great because he filled a need. Great defender and rebounder from the wing. Two things we desperately needed that year.
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Crean whiffed on his JUCOs, but it didn't certainly stop him from overhyping them when he whiffed on his high school targets and they were his fall backs.
Pretty sure Trend Blackledge still holds the NCAA record for Sportscenter Top 10 plays per 40 minutes.
The guy would play 30 sec of garbage time and have some sort of amazing dunk or blocked shot seemingly every time.
But I'll never get over the dropped pass in the final seconds against Notre Dame. Would've had a wide open dunk to take the lead, capping a miraculous rally.
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Always heard that if Odartey stayed, Marquette would have had a legitimate shot at a National Championship.
We actually had a pretty legitimate shot without him.
Regarding his transfer - we most definitely lost talent, but rumor was that he left because he thought he should he was an NBA talent who'd never get to show off his game if he wasn't a bigger focus of the offense than DWade. In sum, we lost talent, but we may have benefitted in terms of team chemistry.
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Rowsey is a great pick up.
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Rowsey is a great pick up.
Yup. He had great numbers at UNC-A, but I wondered how well it would translate to this level. Definitely hasn't been an issue, and can't wait to see what he does next year now that he's had time to get comfortable at this level. Loved him ever since he got in Ben Simmons' face in Brooklyn last year.
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I didn't see Rob Jax. Thanks for letting me know.
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For anyone who is interested, below is a youtube link to a 'Quette vs. Lame. This game includes four transfers on our list.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3VjMRwchoA&t=113s
Walter Downing - No. 13
Kevin Johnson - No. 10
Benny Moore - No. 4
The Great - David Boone - No. 25
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Do Jucos count? I kinda see us as the next progression and those are not true transfers.
In order, I would argue the following:
1) Jim Boylan -- Another poster pointed out his importance to our 1977 team.
2) Ulice Payne --Underrated. Very good, strong power forward. Came from Miami of Ohio.
3) David Boone -- I agree with this one, but those teams never gelled the way they should have.
4) Walter Downing -- Never should have gone to DePaul. Hampered by injury but when he was "on", he was really on. I liked this guy and thought constantly, "what if..."
5) Robert Jackson -- Never would have made the Final Four without him!
UP transferred in from Ohio U., hey?
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Chones was before my time. I am choosing to not comment on players I didn't see. Kinsella had one good game in 2 years. Another of Crean's mis-fires. Jamil Lott off court? I have not heard those legends/rumors.
Trust us. Chones was one of the best players to ever put on a Marquette uniform. They were a very serious national championship threat.
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Goose is top 10 transfer.
So are you the real Goose from the good old Days?
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Not technically a transfer but Jim Chones going to the ABA potentially cost us a National Championship. I would have done the same thing as Jim, so not a criticism of him; just saying.
Al also said he would have done the same. Typically Al thought it was a bad idea tonleave early but in Chones case the money was too good and his mom was washing floors so Al gave his blessing.
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Al also said he would have done the same. Typically Al thought it was a bad idea tonleave early but in Chones case the money was too good and his mom was washing floors so Al gave his blessing.
Hell, Al was essentially his agent and Little Louie was the Nets coach. SJU to SJU deal.
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For anyone who is interested, below is a youtube link to a 'Quette vs. Lame. This game includes four transfers on our list.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3VjMRwchoA&t=113s
Walter Downing - No. 13
Kevin Johnson - No. 10
Benny Moore - No. 4
The Great - David Boone - No. 25
Game with David Rivers....college basketball's answer to Nipsey Russell.
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So are you the real Goose from the good old Days?
The real Goose does read, and very, very rarely post here.
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Already mentioned but Ron Curry was a great transfer. Not best all time but best of the nineties.
We went from a team who rarely scored in transition to a good transition team. Man he was fantastic in the open court.
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#22's mother made salads, not a floor washer, hey?
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Real
You are correct on the real Goose reading and posting on very rare occasion. One of my all time favorites.
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I believe he is Gato's and Brew's little bro. Could be wrong...but his age would be about right and so would his knowledge of players.
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Chones was before my time. I am choosing to not comment on players I didn't see. Kinsella had one good game in 2 years. Another of Crean's mis-fires. Jamil Lott off court? I have not heard those legends/rumors.
Kinsella got hurt at least twice in his career at MU. He was more derailed by injuries than not being good.
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Jeronne Maymon. Transferring out counts equally I hope.
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Pretty sure Trend Blackledge still holds the NCAA record for Sportscenter Top 10 plays per 40 minutes.
The guy would play 30 sec of garbage time and have some sort of amazing dunk or blocked shot seemingly every time.
But I'll never get over the dropped pass in the final seconds against Notre Dame. Would've had a wide open dunk to take the lead, capping a miraculous rally.
He shouldn't have been in the game.
Thanks for whoever posted the YouTube video. I watched a little of the famous '94 game against UK that I had never seen before on an attached video.
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Anybody remember David Boone? Huck. Power forward. Good post player.
Also Walter Downing out of DePaul.
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Evidently A LOT of people remember david Boone.
Should we include Fisher?
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Real
You are correct on the real Goose reading and posting on very rare occasion. One of my all time favorites.
C'mon, get real!
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How about a list of those who transferred out?
I'l start ... Vic Lazzaretti
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So are you the real Goose from the good old Days?
No He(poster Goose) is not....but Gary Brell..the "real" Goose...who played HS BB at PiusXI ...was also was a transfer (started out at North Dakota, if I remember right). Great weak side rebounder
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Houwarrior
Correct, but note this Goose also played HS ball at Pius XI. Note, it was a very short lived HS career, but still a career. The real Goose was far more than a weak side rebounder, but yes, a very good rebounder.
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Ed Daniels transferred from Indiana before Bobby Knight's first season.
he ended up being MU's sixth man on the 1974 team that made the NCAA Finals.
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Old warrior
Easy Ed was decent player.
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UP transferred in from Ohio U., hey?
Oops.
Sorry. Hey Ulice, forgive me :-)
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Houwarrior
Correct, but note this Goose also played HS ball at Pius XI. Note, it was a very short lived HS career, but still a career. The real Goose was far more than a weak side rebounder, but yes, a very good rebounder.
So, with your similar history... are you Goose II, the Sequel? lol
I agree on Brell. I saw him play already in his HS years. (I was a Tosa boy too). He could do many things well..rebounder extraordinaire..great also on mid range jumpers, defense, and put backs...he was fun to watch...a very active player.
At MU he did a Kaepernick thing too....looked down and away during national anthem in a Vietnam protest. My favorite hippie.
http://www.si.com/vault/1971/01/25/542222/crazy-cat-and-his-curious-warriors
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HOUWarrior
Not Goose II, just an old fan #31 from back in the day.
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Transfer Out= Shannon Smith
Transfer Out=John Ellenson
Transfer In = Jay Zulauf
Bad Transfer In = Keith Stewart
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David Boone
You know your stuff. Keith Stewart very low on my all time MU player list. Jay Z was high on my list, unfortunately not on the coach's list.
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I know KR isn't considered one of the best ever for MU but he has really made a difference
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So, with your similar history... are you Goose II, the Sequel? lol
I agree on Brell. I saw him play already in his HS years. (I was a Tosa boy too). He could do many things well..rebounder extraordinaire..great also on mid range jumpers, defense, and put backs...he was fun to watch...a very active player.
At MU he did a Kaepernick thing too....looked down and away during national anthem in a Vietnam protest. My favorite hippie.
http://www.si.com/vault/1971/01/25/542222/crazy-cat-and-his-curious-warriors
For a small school MU had more than its share of casualties during the war. I can remember the Marquette Tribune running a casualty count every week, at least 1 or 2; sometimes more. Really sad.
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another funny blast from past-involves "goose" johnny dee and the mustard handshake...
On today's date in 1971, Al's 2nd ranked Warriors defeated Austin Carr's 9th ranked Notre Dame Fighting Irish 71-66 at the Milwaukee Arena for Marquette's 50th consecutive home victory, avenging their only loss in the last 24 games, which was a double OT heartbreaker to Notre Dame the season before.
"Very rarely do we lose to a team the second time around," Al boasted.
The Warriors improved to 12-0 with the win, but it was Al's practice of pre-game handshakes that was the main topic of discussion after the game.
During pre-game introductions, Notre Dame coach Johnny Dee slipped senior Gary "Goose" Brell a packet of German mustard. The gesture was Dee's answer to Al's controversial practice of having his players shake hands with opposing coaches and players at introductions, seen by many as a cocky ploy to gain a psychological edge.
Dee's intended message was clear: Al and his Warriors were a bunch of 'hot dogs'.
Brell was the first Warrior introduced before the game and promptly threw Dee's packet of German mustard onto the Arena floor. Most of the other Warrios also turned down Dee's gag gift.
Said Brell later of Dee's stunt, "That really annoyed me. I don't know if he did it to be funny, or if he thought the game was a joke, or what. But it offended me. I'm German and I'm proud of my German heritage. It was German mustard; he insulted my nationality. I didn't think it was much of a joke."
Dee said the act was all in good fun. "I was just kidding," Dee offered after the game.
Said Roger Valdiserri, Notre Dame's PR man, in defense of Dee, "A psych move deserves a psych move," to which Dee nodded and puckishly asked, "What do you put on hot dogs?"
Despite Brell taking offense to the move, Al clearly thought it was a clever one. When made aware of it, Al smiled broadly and asked, "Did he do that?"
Unfortunately for the Irish, however, Dee's ploy backfired. Brell enjoyed one of his finest games as a Warrior, limiting Austin Carr, Notre Dame's leading scorer at 39.0 points per game, to just 4 points in the 1st half. With occasional help from Dean "The Dream" Meminger, Bob "The Black Swan" Lackey and Hugh McMahon, Brell held Carr to just 12 points in the 2nd half.
When asked how he felt after the game, Brell, one of the great characters in Marquette history, replied simply, "I'm tired."
According to a Sports Illustrated article, Brell credited his outstanding performance to "I Ching", a Far Eastern philosophy from which Brell said he received a "hexagram message" foretelling that he would be "The Great Restrainer against the Irish".
Due in no small part to the defensive play of Brell and his teammates, Marquette went into the intermission leading by 15 and led by as much as 17 in the 2nd half before a Notre Dame rally brought them to within 5 at 65-60 with 1 minute to play.
In the final 56 seconds, however, Meminger, fresh off an elbow to the mouth during a loose ball scramble, calmly sank 4 free throws and All-American Jim Chones scored on a layup to cement the victory for Marquette.
"You can't dig a hole that big against a team like this and expect to win," Dee lamented after the game. "It was one of those nights."
Chones led the Warriors with 20 points while Meminger contributed 19 in the winning effort.
"Dean was unbelievable-- dynamite," Al gushed after the game. "You see a guy like Maravich or Cousy and they're supposed to be the best. But there's no way they can be this good. I even told him during a timeout not to handle the ball so much, that he'd wear himself out. He went out and did it anyway."
But the handshake issue would not die with the Irish game.
The Raleigh Register of Beckley, West Virginia noted on December 31, 1971, some 11 months later that,
"The simple gesture of shaking hands has turned into a mental arm-wresting problem for fiery Al McGuire, coach of the No. 2 ranked Warriors.
As a result, he is ready to throw in the towel on the practice he instituted during his 1st season at the helm here in 1964. He said his Warriors would discontinue the practice of shaking hands with the opposing coaches and players before home games.
Recent refusals by visiting teams to accept the handshakes have resulted in hard feelings on both sides and came to a head in the Milwaukee Classic finale against Marshall on December 28, 1971.
The game ended with a touch of bitterness and some court-side name calling between the volatile McGuire and Marshall Coach Carl Tacy, causing considerable embarrassment to both schools.
'If it's going to cause so much trouble, we might as well quit doing it,' said McGuire.
The tradition of shaking hands during pre-game introductions began as a form of sportsmanship, but opposing coaches in recent games have viewed it as a psychological gimmick designed to help extend the Warrior's phenomenal home-floor winning streak.
The first to try to counteract any psychological advantage it gave to the Warriors was former Notre Dame coach Johnny Dee. He slipped the players tiny packets of mustard, jokingly indicating he felt the Warriors are 'Hot Dogs' by going through the elaborate hand shake routine.
The counter-psychology failed, however, and the Warriors beat the Irish.
This year, Minnesota players gathered in a tight huddle while the handshakes were offered and ignored the Warriors being introduced.
Marshall did likewise and that sparked a verbal feud during which McGuire and Tacy exchanged accusations of poor sportsmanship. After the Warriors' 74-72 victory, McGuire exploded and told Tacy just what he thought-- some of it in street language. Tacy later called McGuire a 'phony'.
McGuire denied that the handshake was strictly for psychological reasons and was irritated at the emphasis given on his team-record of 63 successive victories in the Milwaukee Arena. The Warriors have also won 27 of 28 road games-- a figure McGuire says critics of the long winning streak ignore.
As for the handshake, McGuire said every coach that comes to play the Warriors knew about it and if they didn't want to go along with it, it would be skipped."
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So, with your similar history... are you Goose II, the Sequel? lol
I agree on Brell. I saw him play already in his HS years. (I was a Tosa boy too). He could do many things well..rebounder extraordinaire..great also on mid range jumpers, defense, and put backs...he was fun to watch...a very active player.
At MU he did a Kaepernick thing too....looked down and away during national anthem in a Vietnam protest. My favorite hippie.
http://www.si.com/vault/1971/01/25/542222/crazy-cat-and-his-curious-warriors
Hot dog with German mustard, hey?
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David Boone
You know your stuff. Keith Stewart very low on my all time MU player list. Jay Z was high on my list, unfortunately not on the coach's list.
Thanks Goose. You obviously do too! I've loved this program since I was a little kid! The first game I can remember watching was in 1978 vs. Miami (Ohio) in NCAA. Although, I remember the national championship hoopla the year before, but not watching the game. Things get fuzzy in terms of memories around that time because I was five in 1977.
Plain and simple...I love the program.
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Single best "transfer":
Al.
Lured him from Belmont Abbey, didn't let him escape to the Bucks!
Case closed.
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Single best "transfer":
Al.
Lured him from Belmont Abbey, didn't let him escape to the Bucks!
Case closed.
So what your sayin' is that basically this entire exercise was worthless.
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How about a list of those who transferred out?
I'l start ... Vic Lazzaretti
Good article on Lazzaretti
http://articles.latimes.com/1987-01-22/news/we-300_1_loyola-marymount
I will add Gabe Levin to the list, who was an inverse Lazzaretti, came to us from Loyola Marymount and then transferred out to Long Beach State.
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How about a list of those who transferred out?
I'l start ... Vic Lazzaretti
Jeronne Maymon and Trevor Mbakwe immediately come to mind. The big men we always needed yet never had. At least not long enough.
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JFC, you guys.
(http://basket.co.il/pics/2012/teams/nivb12.jpg)
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Niv, hey?
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Transfer Out= Shannon Smith
Transfer Out=John Ellenson
Transfer In = Jay Zulauf
Bad Transfer In = Keith Stewart
Shannon Smith. Best thing he did on a basketball court was blocking MJ's shot in a scrimmage.
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Shannon Smith was very athletic talent. Very disappointed in how his career at MU unfolded.
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(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-dTDe941nQtg/AAAAAAAAAAI/AAAAAAAAABY/CiGhoLga3fU/photo.jpg)
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Al also said he would have done the same. Typically Al thought it was a bad idea tonleave early but in Chones case the money was too good and his mom was washing floors so Al gave his blessing.
What modern day Scoopers may not realize, is that not only did Chones leave school early, he actually left in the middle of the season. We were the odds on favorite to win it all that year. Chones did not actually want to go but Al insisted on it.
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I think you can make a very solid argument that Chones was all time best player at MU. My pick is Wade, but Chones was special player. Not many losses when he was on the court for MU.
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#22 left for da Nets in February 1972 right after da Warriors beat Jacksonville at MECCA. 21-0 at da time, ai na?
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#22 left for da Nets in February 1972 right after da Warriors beat Jacksonville at MECCA. 21-0 at da time, ai na?
Should have his number on the rafters, aI'na?
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Dr.
His number showed have been in rafters years ago.
4ever
I remember learning he was gone and was heart broken. As I grew older I realized that departure is what made Al the legend he was. He guided a lot of young men towards a path of success, both off and on the court.
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It sucked major ass. 'member goin' to da game and wakin' up to da news story da next mornin', hey?
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#22 left for da Nets in February 1972 right after da Warriors beat Jacksonville at MECCA. 21-0 at da time, ai na?
At the time, on Feb. 17, 1972, Marquette had a 21-0 record and was the second-ranked team in the country, only behind the Bill Walton-led UCLA Bruins. MU went 4-4 after Chones left. Incredibly disappointing finish. Had he stayed, a showdown with UCLA deep in the tournament seemed very likely.
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Jeronne Maymon and Trevor Mbakwe immediately come to mind. The big men we always needed yet never had. At least not long enough.
Trevor Mbakwe thought he was playing pro ball and went to Coach Brent to renegotiate the terms of his contract. The renegotiation was not a success for Trevor and as a result it was suggested that he transfer for the benefit of all parties. Maymon, Keith Stewart, and Mbakwe all transferred for different reasons. However, they were all entitlement guys that found out the hard way that the 'Quette don't play that.
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Jeronne Maymon and Trevor Mbakwe immediately come to mind. The big men we always needed yet never had. At least not long enough.
We have Maymon, we don't have Crowder. I take Jae.
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4ever
It did suck, but that is what made MU cool. Everything they did, from uniforms, to midnight games, to three guys going hardship, to fights on and off the court and, most importantly, winning at crazy rate made MU cool. I laugh when I hear folks talk about hating other schools because they are winners and think we were that hated school at one time. Not only did they win, they won with an in your face attitude.
Chones leaving in Feb only adds to the legend of Al and MU basketball for a 15 year run. It would have been easy for him to have stayed and it probably might even have been the right thing to do. If he had stayed and we won the whole thing I think Al would had preferred he left for the green.
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What I tink you're sayin' and I totally agree wit, is da Warrior cache' is gowne. Da youngans here, unfortunately, will never get dis, but no matta wear ya travelled, folks new Marquette, Al McGuire, and were mystified wit hour aura, hey?
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4ever
Folks knew we were not from Marquette, MI back in the day. The hatred by many around the country of the program was a feeling I really, really loved. You lived it on the road with the fellas and know the emotions that Al brought out in people. Kind of like his last dance to ND, the pose in front of student bodies with arms raised above head became a photo first, followed by a statue and still displayed on MU t-shirts over 40 years later.
And, yes the arrogance that I loved is gown!!!
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4ever
Folks knew we were not from Marquette, MI back in the day. The hatred by many around the country of the program was a feeling I really, really loved. You lived it on the road with the fellas and know the emotions that Al brought out in people. Kind of like his last dance to ND, the pose in front of student bodies with arms raised above head became a photo first, followed by a statue and still displayed on MU t-shirts over 40 years later.
And, yes the arrogance that I loved is gown!!!
Quite the contrast from the "sea shells and balloons" Al. He was agains the war, but never afraid of a fight. He knew a "big paycheck" and not a welfare check was the way out of the inner city or poor neighborhood regardless of race. He was arrogant on the court but had a big heart off the court. He was a man of means, but lived a middle class life style. A New Yorker who still makes Milwaukee famous while Schlitz is a fading memory. Al will always be the face of Marquette University.
I can still remember Al riding his bike to school.
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So, Goose, if I have been reading your posts over the last few days correctly, I think I understand your surprising negativity of a few weeks ago. It isn't that you aren't a Marquette fan anymore. You are. But you have so many glorious memories of the the 70's when Marquette was an elite. The MU basketball program you see now, while good and in the tournament, isn't elite, lacks charisma, and, in your opinion, does not have a route to greatness with the current stewardship of the program. And this is frustrating and diminishes your enjoyment.
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So, Goose, if I have been reading your posts over the last few days correctly, I think I understand your surprising negativity of a few weeks ago. It isn't that you aren't a Marquette fan anymore. You are. But you have so many glorious memories of the the 70's when Marquette was an elite. The MU basketball program you see now, while good and in the tournament, isn't elite, lacks charisma, and, in your opinion, does not have a route to greatness with the current stewardship of the program. And this is frustrating and diminishes your enjoyment.
Marquette was Duke in the 70's, one difference the competition hated Al since he was so obnoxious. he wanted the opponents crowd to hate him, not his players. Coach
K is Mister nice guy. Not to many coaches like Al. The 3 top teams were UCLA, Indiana and MU. The total basketball environment was different, there was no Big East.
Time to realize that MU will never get there again. Do not see it, what Buzz did, even Crean is what you hope you get from Wojo. Sweet 16, hopefully, maybe Elite 8
if lucky. Make the tournament every year, get lucky once in awhile. Crean could not build on the success of his Final 4. Not sure why he could not. I am hoping Wojo
can get there next year as well. Never easy. Al plucked the best player from NY or Chicago in those days, not happening now. All 5 stars, not easy to get those kids,
unless they are in our state, maybe Joey.
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Crean could not build on the success of his Final 4. Not sure why he could not.
9 years at IU have borne out what MU fans were coming to realize when he left. He is a decent coach, but he isn't a great coach.
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9 years at IU have borne out what MU fans were coming to realize when he left. He is a decent coach, but he isn't a great coach.
I agree on that. Just needed one big man, and never got one except the one year with Robert Jackson. Even under Buzz they never got a big man, either.
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Tower
I apologize to all if I came across negatively in my posts, I actually was just trying to be honest. I realize that we are never going to be the Marquette of the Al era again and I am fine with that. What I am not fine with is the school STILL living off that glory and not striving (IMO) to get as close as possible to be a real deal program again. I do not believe the bar or expectations are set high enough by the program or many fans...just my opinion.
I would take Brad Stevens bland over charisma in 2017 and be very happy with that. Not being elite frustrates me big time. IMO not trying harder to be elite really frustrates me. For me, it really does come down to winning and winning all the time.
For the record, I was spoiled. I saw 80 of the 81 home wins during the sixth longest home winning streak in NCAA history in person. From a very early age (probably 4-5) MU basketball has been in our family's blood and I witnessed a lot of winning and winning doesn't suck.
Lastly, I have one recommendation that I wish MU ball program would follow. Forget about Al and they should build their own legacy. I am an Al freak and I tire of Al day at BC, or timeout on the Al McGuire Court or AL on the jersey and any other Al gimmick they pull to get old folks excited. I hope they try and bury the legend of Al by winning and winning big.
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So, Goose, if I have been reading your posts over the last few days correctly, I think I understand your surprising negativity of a few weeks ago. It isn't that you aren't a Marquette fan anymore. You are. But you have so many glorious memories of the the 70's when Marquette was an elite. The MU basketball program you see now, while good and in the tournament, isn't elite, lacks charisma, and, in your opinion, does not have a route to greatness with the current stewardship of the program. And this is frustrating and diminishes your enjoyment.
Tower, I think you have a pretty good handle on where Goose, 4ever, 69, myself and others are coming from. We were lucky to be around the program when it was elite - and by elite I mean in the class with UCLA, N Carolina, Kentucky and Indiana - above the rest of college basketball. In addition, we were unique to that group - small, urban and Catholic. And led by an edgy iconoclast who was always the coolest guy in the room. Now, we realize it will never be the same, the heavens will never be aligned quite that way again. But we had a glimpse. Buzz and his teams weren't as good, but they were close. Buzz wasn't quite the character Al was, but he was close. Buzz's teams didn't quite have the edge and the attitude Al's teams had, but it was close. Al grew weary of a less than appreciative administration and retired at 49 or 50. Buzz grew weary of the same and left.
Maybe (hopefully) Wojo can get us to where Buzz had us or beyond. But the model that worked for Al and Buzz has been torpedoed by the administration. Maybe the new model works. All of us old timers are praying that it does. We'd love to be totally on the bandwagon - but we're skeptical.
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Lenny
Spot on. I WANT to be on the bandwagon and enjoy the ride. That said, little confidence in the overall leadership of the program, and that is not a rip on Wojo.
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With Wojo it will be 2018 recruiting and the new arena, stadium, whatever they are going to call it. If he can not sell the best new arena in the country for new recruits
to play in, it will never happen. This is not going to be a college stadium, but a pro stadium! He has Bailey coming and if he gets Joey, add one or two more and he
should have a Top 10 class. Then we will see.
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Hoopster
Provided we play in new pro stadium long term, you are correct. If not, different story.
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I get it. I truly do. The heights (the true heights and the recent paler imitation) of MU basketball have come when we had an iconoclastic, idiosyncratic coach who was usually the smartest and most interesting guy in the room. When the players had an edge. When the Marquette brand was toughness. I've said multiple times that I am not sold on Wojo's ability to take MU to the heights. I can see the building blocks and the road map that he wants to follow. I just don't know if that route takes MU to the top. And if it does, it will feel like a Disney-fied version of a great story. I don't see MU being a team of wild personalities that opponents hate. If it works, I see MU making it with a Duke template. And few of K's proteges have made that template work.
But here we are. MU is in the dance in Wojo's third year. A worthy accomplishment. Size is on the way in the next recruiting classes. I have hope for the program. But I don't think in this era, with this BOT, that anything resembling the style and panache of Al and Buzz will be permitted at MU.
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Tower
Agree across the board. FYI---I might get pissed off, but never have I lost my love of the program.
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Instead of asking us to get off your lawn, perhaps it's time to transfer out of the neighborhood.
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Golden
Why don't you share more into your insight on the SH dumpster fire. We all found your insight very enjoyable.
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Instead of asking us to get off your lawn, perhaps it's time to transfer out of the neighborhood.
Guys MU had a period from 1982 to Kevin O'Neal sucked, really sucked, same years as the Packers sucked. Since then, sure they have been up and down, but those
20 years were worse. Maybe Wojo beats Duke on Sunday, how would that be?
The Al years might have been worse, sure they won the NIT and 1977 championship, but there were really tough losses during that period. Southern Illinois, Purdue,
Ohio State, Chones leaving during the year, Lucas leaving early, McNeil, crunched by Kentucky, losing to NCSt., Al technicals, losing to Indiana in 76 when they did not
rank teams, just put them in reigionals in there area, and finally 1978, the technical. Those were all worse losses then today, because every year they could have won
the NCAA, today they go out in the first or second round, no chance to win it all. Think of all that!
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Hoopster
Guys like Golden pull inside job for getting a bid and hoping for first round win...and "then everything else is playing with house money".
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With Wojo it will be 2018 recruiting and the new arena, stadium, whatever they are going to call it. If he can not sell the best new arena in the country for new recruits
to play in, it will never happen. This is not going to be a college stadium, but a pro stadium! He has Bailey coming and if he gets Joey, add one or two more and he
should have a Top 10 class. Then we will see.
Help me out here I respect your input.. I have read many posts of the positive affect of the new stadium on recruiting. A Honest question. Of all the elements a recruit considers when making his decision, what percentage (weight) of those elements does he give to the new arena. I'm looking for an average % not for a case by case. Thanks
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Help me out here I respect your input.. I have read many posts of the positive affect of the new stadium on recruiting. A Honest question. Of all the elements a recruit considers when making his decision, what percentage (weight) of those elements does he give to the new arena. I'm looking for an average % not for a case by case. Thanks
Not sure the answer, but the Milwaukee Arena was a great place to watch a game, and the crowds were great. The Bradley Center compared to other arenas for
basketball suck. It is a big warehouse, not intimate, not intimidating at all. Not sure about the new stadium until you see a game in there. It should be great, impressive I hope. More seats below, better site lines for basketball. I would say 10-15% percent tops, just a guess. The Kohl Center was a huge help for basketball
compared to that old barn.
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Loose
Playing in an NBA stadium is a major, major recruiting tool. Playing in a stadium three miles away from NBA facility, not so much. As silly as it sounds, these kids want to play where the NBA guys play. Of course does not mean you win every recruiting battle because of it, but it definitely does not hurt.
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4ever
Folks knew we were not from Marquette, MI back in the day. The hatred by many around the country of the program was a feeling I really, really loved. You lived it on the road with the fellas and know the emotions that Al brought out in people. Kind of like his last dance to ND, the pose in front of student bodies with arms raised above head became a photo first, followed by a statue and still displayed on MU t-shirts over 40 years later.
And, yes the arrogance that I loved is gown!!!
The opponents were so intimidated by our Warriors in the day, most games were over before they even started.
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Loose
Playing in an NBA stadium is a major, major recruiting tool. Playing in a stadium three miles away from NBA facility, not so much. As silly as it sounds, these kids want to play where the NBA guys play. Of course does not mean you win every recruiting battle because of it, but it definitely does not hurt.
Goose, and MU in NY
OK I get that. But let me rephrase If YOU are the recruit, what are all the elements you're looking at and what weight do You give to each. As they say just be You.
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Since Al's day, which programs have risen to that elite level? Duke, obviously. Louisville, Villanova, Georgetown, Florida? Maybe Michigan State and (ugh) Wisconsin?
Becoming a team that is a sure bet for March and can compete for titles regularly is a tough thing to accomplish. Did any of those programs do it with an Al type figure? Modern days, definitely not K, Donovan, Wright, Izzo, or the Thompsons (maybe Big, not at all Little).
That leaves Pitino and Ryan (was Crum like that?). I do think they both do well at drawing the ire of opposition fans, though differently from Al.
I think Wojo is a lot more in the mold of K, Izzo, or Wright, where they build more around the program than the players. I have no idea if it will work, but I also think the days where an Al can build a dynasty may be over.
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Brew
You are pretty easier grader on how elite looks like. I would take WI level of program at the moment, but nowhere near elite in my mind. They had a nice run and that is about it. As for coaches, Rick Pitino is the closest to Al, IMO. From his looks, hand gestures, walking the baseline, fashion sense and, most importantly, his ability to have his teams take over a game with a full court press. Big fan of Rick.
Before I get bashed with everything anti Pitino, please know your Al history before casting stones.
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IMO not trying harder to be elite really frustrates me.
This is the crux of the disagreement for me. I have seen no evidence that this is happening at Marquette. The administration, the BOT, the coaches and the players all have this at the top of the priority list. Despite what many have insinuated, Wojo was hired not because he was a choir boy, he was hired because he was perceived as the candidate most likely to bring us back to upper echelon of college basketball. Him being a choir boy was just a happy coincidence.
I'd welcome hearing contradicting evidence that show that we are no longer trying to be elite in basketball
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Goose:
You and I are clones. I started on MU when I was 10. I cheered from afar for most of the McGuire era and love our Warriors far more than my beloved Packers or the St. Louis Cardinals. A couple of thoughts:
1) The days of Bob Knight, Al McGuire, Vitale etc., are over. Our school was like Al in the 1970s, arrogant and obnoxious. And we loved it. There's no way the Jesuits or Dr. Lovell would allow that today. Not what we want to be.
2) We can be an elite program again. Just understand elite means something different today than it did in 1970. At that time, UCLA won like 10 national championships in 12 years. Adolph Rupp, the dean of college bigots, still hadn't recruited or played his fist African-American ballplayer at Kentucky. The SEC had all of two African-American ballplayers at the time (Perry Wallace and Henry Harris). There were probably a dozen really good basketball schools and the drop-off from that 12 to the next 75 was huge. By contrast, today there's maybe a half dozen truly elite basketball schools (which can be pierced over time) and maybe 100 others that are generally good and competitive from year to year for an NCAA run. Butler, for example, made it to the championship not long ago. Yeah, Butler!
3) The reasons why ballplayers come to schools is as varied as the number of ballplayers. Why did Henry Ellenson choose Marquette? Probably to show off his skills and prepare for the NBA. He might have had to sit a year or more at Michigan State or UK. Many come for the coaches. A few for the facilities, location or even the happy and very friendly cheerleaders. Some might come because Jabari Parker or Glenn Rivers show up at MU practice facilities. Some might even come for Milwaukee's wonder winter weather. It's up to a coach to know what makes the guy tick and convert.
In short, I think we can be elite again and prominent on the national scene. But, elite means something very different than the 1970s or even Gino Antrum's 105+ game win streak at UConn womens basketball. It means we will be relevant.
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dgies
Correct on almost all your points. An exception, IMO, the two Sr.'s at Villanova have now won 129 games and never have had a losing streak in their career there. If they can do that Villanova, MU sure as hell should have similar goals. Elite is different today, but winning and winning big has not changed. Give me a boring Duke like run for next 15 years and I will be happy camper.
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TAMU
I have no doubt that many of the folks you mentioned has MU being an elite program on top of their priority list. For the record, I have getting laid everyday on top of priority list and I would say MU and I have similar levels of success currently. Actually, I like my batting average a helluva of lot more than MU's regarding making ball program elite.
My point is simple, I am not sure the gang over there has any idea on how to make their top of the list objective happen. I think you are a tad naive on some of the beliefs you have regarding what level priority it is. Take being a tad naive as a compliment.
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I really like the recent posts here by TAMU and dgies.
My initial reaction to comments earlier in this thread was, "What do you mean Marquette isn't trying hard enough to be elite?"
And my secondary reaction was, "What is elite, anyway?"
There are a half-dozen - maybe - programs that are anywhere near what MU was during Al's heyday.
I mean some folks actually still consider Indiana "elite" even though it hasn't been an elite program for 20+ years. UCLA? Is that "elite" anymore?
As for Al - I wasn't here for Al. I arrived in the fall of 1978, 18 months removed from our most glorious moment. I certainly am not here to shyte on Al. I chose Marquette because of its basketball program and Al built that.
But really ... wasn't MU hoops under Al kind of like the Ditka-era Bears? Won one championship, contended year-in and year-out, was brash and had a certain panache ... but couldn't win multiple titles - which often is cited as the mark of true greatness?
The main difference between the Al Warriors and the Ditka Bears was: The Bears won their title the year they were by far the NFL's best team and then never could live up to it while the Warriors had far better teams than the one that won their lone title as Al's swan song. Unlike the Bears, who couldn't match their one-shot-wonder success, the Warriors' disappointments came earlier, during Al's prime. Still, at least loosely, the comparison works for me.
Were the Bears an "elite" team in the 1980s? Maybe, but they certainly weren't THE elite team. Not even effen close, compared to the 49ers.
I know that Goose, Lenny and others are smart enough to realize that things have changed so much in college basketball that the odds are stacked against Marquette ever being "elite" again - just as they are stacked against UCLA now that Wooden can't have all of his lieutenants cheat like hell on the recruiting trail, just as they are stacked against Indiana now that great athletes will no longer play for an abusive, tyrant SOB no matter how great a coach he might be.
I agree with many and say I will be satisfied with the kind of success we had in our stretch under Buzz. S16-S16-E8, preceded by a bunch of other tourney appearances, is a pretty sweet run for just about any school not named Duke, UNC, Kentucky and Kansas. That we had a certain swagger and toughness made it all the better. You do that, and maybe you catch a break or three and make a FF or two, maybe even pull off a title like Nova last season.
And I think we can do that under Wojo - and, if he leaves one day, under the coach who replaces him.
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MU82
The trying hard enough question is quite simple IMO. If they are trying their best to be "elite", they are failing. Another thought, quite possibly they are satisfied with current state of program and hope Wojo has bigger success down the road. My gut tells me that they spin a good story and many fans bite on it.
I have said a million times, I have ZERO problem being the type of program that is competitive on getting a bid every year and make occasional second weekend, IF, that is the product the university is selling. Many on here believe being elite is a priority to them. If that is the case, I believe they have struck out for a long time.
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Goose, what is MU doing (or not doing) to assure basketball success? I guess I don't understand what you see (or don't see) that makes you question Mu"s commitment to being elite?
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Karp
Are you serious? We have not been elite for four decades. What don't you get?
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I really like the recent posts here by TAMU and dgies.
My initial reaction to comments earlier in this thread was, "What do you mean Marquette isn't trying hard enough to be elite?"
And my secondary reaction was, "What is elite, anyway?"
There are a half-dozen - maybe - programs that are anywhere near what MU was during Al's heyday.
I mean some folks actually still consider Indiana "elite" even though it hasn't been an elite program for 20+ years. UCLA? Is that "elite" anymore?
As for Al - I wasn't here for Al. I arrived in the fall of 1978, 18 months removed from our most glorious moment. I certainly am not here to shyte on Al. I chose Marquette because of its basketball program and Al built that.
But really ... wasn't MU hoops under Al kind of like the Ditka-era Bears? Won one championship, contended year-in and year-out, was brash and had a certain panache ... but couldn't win multiple titles - which often is cited as the mark of true greatness?
The main difference between the Al Warriors and the Ditka Bears was: The Bears won their title the year they were by far the NFL's best team and then never could live up to it while the Warriors had far better teams than the one that won their lone title as Al's swan song. Unlike the Bears, who couldn't match their one-shot-wonder success, the Warriors' disappointments came earlier, during Al's prime. Still, at least loosely, the comparison works for me.
Were the Bears an "elite" team in the 1980s? Maybe, but they certainly weren't THE elite team. Not even effen close, compared to the 49ers.
I know that Goose, Lenny and others are smart enough to realize that things have changed so much in college basketball that the odds are stacked against Marquette ever being "elite" again - just as they are stacked against UCLA now that Wooden can't have all of his lieutenants cheat like hell on the recruiting trail, just as they are stacked against Indiana now that great athletes will no longer play for an abusive, tyrant SOB no matter how great a coach he might be.
I agree with many and say I will be satisfied with the kind of success we had in our stretch under Buzz. S16-S16-E8, preceded by a bunch of other tourney appearances, is a pretty sweet run for just about any school not named Duke, UNC, Kentucky and Kansas. That we had a certain swagger and toughness made it all the better. You do that, and maybe you catch a break or three and make a FF or two, maybe even pull off a title like Nova last season.
And I think we can do that under Wojo - and, if he leaves one day, under the coach who replaces him.
Good post. As one who was fortunate enough to be able to be a part of MU's basketball hierarchy in the 1970's, I can tell you it was a different time, as in all aspects of life. During my time, MU lost a total of 14 games (including NCAAs) and I cannot recall one game lost at home, but then again my brain is sort of fried... MU was a very elite program and would have been one of the best if not for the losses in consecutive years of Chones, McNeil and Lucas, all who left for the NBA. What could have been if all had stayed would probably have meant one more national title for sure. I have said it earlier in posts that McNeil is probably the most underrated player in MU history, he was that good.
The atmosphere at the games was electric and students rarely missed a game for any reason whether it be the snow, classes, etc. Duke has it K-Ville, in which students camp out for tickets, well MU did the same way before them and we did it in ass freezing cold, not regretting anything about doing it.
As for the tournament, back then there were only I believe 24 teams that went to the NCAAs. They even had a third place game in the regionals and a third place game in final four for awhile. Very selective, but MU never was considered being not invited due to their success. There were many elite teams at the time, including of course the UCLA dynasty which won twice in my tenure, Louisville, Indiana, and NC State. I would include MU as definitely an elite team. Then there were others, even like a Providence, Memphis State, that recruited players and came out of nowhere. Duke at the time was sort of a current Depaul type team and a non existent factor in basketball.
During that time there was no cable TV, no internet and you had the opportunity to watch maybe two national tv games on the weekends. The tournament was still shown and that was big time for each program. You relied upon the radio and newspapers to see the scores and magazines like Street and Smith and Bob Gibbons Report for recruiting information. That all changed when ESPN came on board and started showing college basketball in I believe 1980. Teams made the right coaching changes, the landscape of conferences were developed and recruits could now watch their favorite teams more often.
You are right, those students/fans during that Buzz run should appreciate it because in these times that was pretty good. But, times have changed as have the teams. Eliteness is primarily based upon the school's past performance, along with bits of current success to keep them in the discussion. Your examples of Indiana and UCLA fit the bill perfectly. Duke, Kansas, UNC, Michigan St., Kentucky, they are elite now because they continue to win, make final fours, get the national media attention, which all leads to the top recruits going there for NBA potential.
MU was for awhile an elite program, a top 5 at the time. But time, advances in television, cable, internet, recruiting, and the whole current NCAA basketball fascination in which March Madness is second behind the Super Bowl has changed the playing field. Being elite is a lot tougher now than it was back then.
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Karp
Are you serious? We have not been elite for four decades. What don't you get?
That's a quality dodge of his question.
There are many, many reasons MU hasn't been 'elite', and lack of effort is about 100th on the list.
If you implication is that all it takes to be elite is wanting it, I've got a few Notre Dame football fans for you to meet. And when you're done with them, I'll introduce to the Texas and Tennessee backers.
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If "elite" means a program in contention for the national title nearly every year a la Duke, Marquette doesn't have the resources to be elite.
We have the resources to be Villanova. Villanova is very good but I wouldn't call them "elite." That is the goal.
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Pakuni
I did not avoid the question. I agree with you and the other schools mentioned have also failed. Wanting something and getting something done are two different things. MU has not gotten it done.
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I am surprised that there is so much debate re: Goose's position...Marquette themselves say they want to have an elite basketball program that competes for national titles. So clearly missing objectives...
The real question is can MU achieve its goal above while achieving all the other things it thinks is right/important.
I think no - I also think we when we and other schools have had brief periods of success we also didnt satisfy everyone on the way to winning.
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Pakuni
I did not avoid the question. I agree with you and the other schools mentioned have also failed. Wanting something and getting something done are two different things. MU has not gotten it done.
Marquette has certain fixed circumstances that make it exceptionally unlikely that it ever "gets done."
I agree with the former Sultan, that Villanova is our ceiling ... and that's a fantastic ceiling with which we all should be beyond thrilled.
If you're going to be unsatisfied with anything short of Kentucky/Duke/UNC/Kansas territory, be ready for a life filled with disappointment.
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Give me 'nova success and I will be facing in the street.
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Help me out here I respect your input.. I have read many posts of the positive affect of the new stadium on recruiting. A Honest question. Of all the elements a recruit considers when making his decision, what percentage (weight) of those elements does he give to the new arena. I'm looking for an average % not for a case by case. Thanks
I think playing in an NBA stadium is a huge (YUGE!) recruiting tool. One that really sets Marquette apart from most programs. As Goose said, playing down the road from an NBA team doesn't really do much for recruits.
However, I think playing in an NBA arena is also a detriment to our home court advantage. If you look around, no team that plays exclusively in an NBA arena has won a national championship in the last 30 years. Very few Final Fours in that time as well. Quite simply, we don't have the fanbase to pack that size of a stadium on a nightly basis. When the arena isn't packed, the sound gets absorbed, the atmosphere diminishes, and suddenly we don't have much of a home court advantage at all. That can also play into recruiting (though not nearly as much as an NBA arena does).
Personally, I think a Nova has the best system worked out. They have a snake pit of an on campus arena that they sell out every game. The atmosphere is deafening even when they are playing Little Sisters of the Poor State. But they also have a relationship with the NBA arena and play 5-10 games there a season. They reserve those games for the big blockbuster games that will get sold out no matter how many seats are in the place. They get to keep the advantage of playing in an NBA arena but never sacrifice their home court advantage.
I would love that for our program. But at this point, an on campus arena is just a pipe dream. But even with an on campus arena, it would be a huge (YUGE!) mistake to give up the relationship with the NBA arena. Need to make sure we are playing at least some of our home games there.
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I think playing in an NBA stadium is a huge (YUGE!) recruiting tool. One that really sets Marquette apart from most programs. As Goose said, playing down the road from an NBA team doesn't really do much for recruits.
However, I think playing in an NBA arena is also a detriment to our home court advantage. If you look around, no team that plays exclusively in an NBA arena has won a national championship in the last 30 years. Very few Final Fours in that time as well. Quite simply, we don't have the fanbase to pack that size of a stadium on a nightly basis. When the arena isn't packed, the sound gets absorbed, the atmosphere diminishes, and suddenly we don't have much of a home court advantage at all. That can also play into recruiting (though not nearly as much as an NBA arena does).
Personally, I think a Nova has the best system worked out. They have a snake pit of an on campus arena that they sell out every game. The atmosphere is deafening even when they are playing Little Sisters of the Poor State. But they also have a relationship with the NBA arena and play 5-10 games there a season. They reserve those games for the big blockbuster games that will get sold out no matter how many seats are in the place. They get to keep the advantage of playing in an NBA arena but never sacrifice their home court advantage.
I would love that for our program. But at this point, an on campus arena is just a pipe dream. But even with an on campus arena, it would be a huge (YUGE!) mistake to give up the relationship with the NBA arena. Need to make sure we are playing at least some of our home games there.
The first year in the new arena will be packed if the students show up, compared to a Bucks game the pricing should be reasonable. Bucks I have found out will
not be, smaller area, 17,500, will fill up the whole first year. Then what is on the court will matter.
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TAMU
I have no doubt that many of the folks you mentioned has MU being an elite program on top of their priority list. For the record, I have getting laid everyday on top of priority list and I would say MU and I have similar levels of success currently. Actually, I like my batting average a helluva of lot more than MU's regarding making ball program elite.
My point is simple, I am not sure the gang over there has any idea on how to make their top of the list objective happen. I think you are a tad naive on some of the beliefs you have regarding what level priority it is. Take being a tad naive as a compliment.
I'm not sure how to take naive as a compliment but I'll take your word for it.
I was born in the Dukiet years. The lowest point in Marquette basketball history. Marquette basketball was part of my life from birth. Some of my earliest memories are Marquette basketball games. What I have seen in my lifetime is a steady growth in Marquette basketball from irrelevant low-major to Big East Champion and Final Four contender. It took damn near my entire lifetime, but I think the administration has done a fantastic job of building us back towards the upper echelons of college basketball. We got to the very outskirts of those echelons when Buzz was here, which is why I loved him so much as a coach despite some of the warts. I think there was some massive missteps on both sides towards the end of Buzz' tenure and for the first time in my life we took a real step back. The people mainly responsible for those missteps are gone and we are back to growing again.
We will never be back at the level that Al got us to. Because that level doesn't exist anymore. No one is that good. Not Kentucky, not Duke, not North Carolina. It simply doesn't exist in today's day and age. But Marquette will not be satisfied until it is college basketball royalty again. Sultan said our ceiling is Villanova. I disagree. Our ceiling is a modern day Duke, North Carolina, or Kansas. Being considered a near lock for the tourney every year and always starting the year with final four potential. That is always what we are building towards.
But that doesn't mean that we won't enjoy the milestones and success along the way. We have to walk before we can run. I expect more than a tournament appearance with a 10 seed from the Marquette program. I however recognize the reality that with where we started this season, that is an accomplishment and it should be commended. But please don't mistake commendation for satisfaction.
Like most of the best things in life, this requires patience. I didn't get to experience the Golden Age of Marquette basketball. I recognize that I don't have the perspective of the older Warriors who must view everything post-Al as a sad replacement for what they used to get from Marquette. I can understand why it seems like patience has never paid off for those who were fans in the 70s. I was born during the low point of our program and have seen it grow to its second highest peak. My patience has always been rewarded.
I guess can understand. You have been patient for us to be elite for 4 decades now and have never seen it. I suppose I might not trust the people in charge to get it done either. I'm curious, who do you think could get the job done? If we had a new president, AD , BOT, would you possibly trust them? Or do you not just trust university administrations with basketball decisions in general? If not them, who should be making the decisions?
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Pakuni
I did not avoid the question. I agree with you and the other schools mentioned have also failed. Wanting something and getting something done are two different things. MU has not gotten it done.
Again, Goose, I don't know what you think the higher-ups at Marquette should be doing to "get it done."
I am absolutely not being a wise-arse here. I am looking for what actual things should be done. I am not "wired" into our administration and board of directors like some here apparently are.
From afar, it appears Marquette has put a lot of money into the program, they have built nice facilities, they were willing to give the job and a very competitive contract to Shaka, when he was unavailable they hired one of the top assistants in the market, they recruit nationally.
Rather than repeating, "They say they want to be elite but they have failed," I seriously am asking you to elaborate on what they should be doing instead.
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Brew
You are pretty easier grader on how elite looks like. I would take WI level of program at the moment, but nowhere near elite in my mind. They had a nice run and that is about it. As for coaches, Rick Pitino is the closest to Al, IMO. From his looks, hand gestures, walking the baseline, fashion sense and, most importantly, his ability to have his teams take over a game with a full court press. Big fan of Rick.
Before I get bashed with everything anti Pitino, please know your Al history before casting stones.
I also thought Wisconsin was an overreach, but there really just aren't many examples of programs that have ascended since then, certainly not in the last 20 years (which is what we are trying to do).
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TAMU
My point on naive being a compliment is simple. You are a good person and you want to think the best of people. That is a good thing and keep that up.
I have said countless times that elite is different today and I get that. Aside from Buzzer getting us close for a couple of years we have not sniffed elite or near elite in decades.
In my heart and in my head, I do not think brass has a plan to be elite for much of four decades. They have the hope and dream and not the plan. Honestly, maybe MU brass is too good of a group of people to pull the trigger to be elite. If the case, I accept that and spend the ball money on making it better academic environment.
Again, I meant you being naive as a compliment. My gut tells me you are a good man.
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MU82
I would gladly discuss your question in detail over cocktails, my treat. That said, there is a divided BOT on how and what ball program means to the university. There has been lack of leadership in AD for a long time. Note---please do not tell me Bill Cords. The two major hires when Cords was here was done 100% outside influence and did around his back. That is a fact.
Again, next time you are in Milwaukee we can have a cocktail and discuss in detail. Honestly, tired of the fight and pissing off the fellow scoopers.
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TAMU
My point on naive being a compliment is simple. You are a good person and you want to think the best of people. That is a good thing and keep that up.
I have said countless times that elite is different today and I get that. Aside from Buzzer getting us close for a couple of years we have not sniffed elite or near elite in decades.
In my heart and in my head, I do not think brass has a plan to be elite for much of four decades. They have the hope and dream and not the plan. Honestly, maybe MU brass is too good of a group of people to pull the trigger to be elite. If the case, I accept that and spend the ball money on making it better academic environment.
Again, I meant you being naive as a compliment. My gut tells me you are a good man.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you are saying that you must "play dirty" or at very least "not be a good person" in order to be elite. Is that correct?
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TAMU
Not at all on having to play dirty. My point is that you take good people for their word, even if that word is comes up from lack of facts or experience. BOT or admin can say the right things and many follow what they say. I tend to follow results.
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TAMU
Not at all on having to play dirty. My point is that you take good people for their word, even if that word is comes up from lack of facts or experience. BOT or admin can say the right things and many follow what they say. I tend to follow results.
Then what did you mean by "Honestly, maybe MU brass is too good of a group of people to pull the trigger to be elite"? What does the admin being too good of people have to do with being an elite program?
I personally think I'm pretty good at separating the truth from the bs. You have to in my line of work. 95% of what comes out of the mouths of people who end up in my office is BS. But I have been known to be wrong. The future Mrs. TAMU reminds me of this frequently!
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TAMU
Fair question and I stated my point poorly. By pull the trigger, I mean having the ability to acknowledge what you are capable of and what you are not capable of. Maybe removing folks from being involved in the process of getting outside people in the process would help.
I believe every person on the BOT is a good person and wants the best for MU. That said, I highly doubt anyone is going to suggest bringing in basketball people to build a plan for success.
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Then what did you mean by "Honestly, maybe MU brass is too good of a group of people to pull the trigger to be elite"? What does the admin being too good of people have to do with being an elite program?
I personally think I'm pretty good at separating the truth from the bs. You have to in my line of work. 95% of what comes out of the mouths of people who end up in my office is BS. But I have been known to be wrong. The future Mrs. TAMU reminds me of this frequently!
Maybe look at the transfer in thread and folks would get an idea of what it would take. Pretty much all the MU greats wouldn't be admitted today.
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Dr.
Agreed completely. The players cheered the loudest probably would not be Warriors in today's environment.
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Maybe look at the transfer in thread and folks would get an idea of what it would take. Pretty much all the MU greats wouldn't be admitted today.
To be honest, I don't know the backgrounds of some of the Marquette greats before my time. So that could be true. What I do know is that the only players from the Buzz era who wouldn't be allowed in now would be Jae Crowder and Todd Mayo. Crowder has been debated ad naseum on here so I won't bring it up again. We should universally agree that the Toddler shouldn't have been a part of our program. I think we can still reach elite while only recruiting players who have the possibility of graduating (not probability, possibility), didn't attend 6 high schools due to disciplinary reasons, and have no violent crimes on their records. Those are really the only restrictions I know of on recruiting. Wojo has recruited JUCOs, he has recruited players with low GPAs, he recruited kids who had tough upbringings, and he has even recruited a kid who had a violent crime on his record. Most of the alleged restrictions on recruiting are just myths. All of this is of course ridiculous because there is no correlation between "non-choir boys" and successful basketball.
Dr.
Agreed completely. The players cheered the loudest probably would not be Warriors in today's environment.
Today's environment is an important qualifier. It was a very different world 40 years ago. That is something Marquette has no control over. Al would not be Al if he were a coach today.
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TAMU
Fair question and I stated my point poorly. By pull the trigger, I mean having the ability to acknowledge what you are capable of and what you are not capable of. Maybe removing folks from being involved in the process of getting outside people in the process would help.
I believe every person on the BOT is a good person and wants the best for MU. That said, I highly doubt anyone is going to suggest bringing in basketball people to build a plan for success.
That makes more sense. And this is something I could agree with. It would depend on who you define as "basketball people." If you mean "booster" I would heartily disagree.
I would also point out that Marquette has more "basketball people" in its search process than at least 95% of universities just by having an accomplished coach like Doc Rivers on board. I also trust Bill Cords as a basketball person given that he hired O'Neill, Crean, and Buzz...the three most successful Marquette coaches post Al. But more expertise and less hands in the pot is usually a good thing so I'd love to add even more!
Did you have a suggestion on who should have been involved that wasn't?
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MU82
I would gladly discuss your question in detail over cocktails, my treat. That said, there is a divided BOT on how and what ball program means to the university. There has been lack of leadership in AD for a long time. Note---please do not tell me Bill Cords. The two major hires when Cords was here was done 100% outside influence and did around his back. That is a fact.
Again, next time you are in Milwaukee we can have a cocktail and discuss in detail. Honestly, tired of the fight and pissing off the fellow scoopers.
OK, Goose. I'll let it die here.
And I'll happily accept a free beer or three pretty much anytime.
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Tower
I apologize to all if I came across negatively in my posts, I actually was just trying to be honest. I realize that we are never going to be the Marquette of the Al era again and I am fine with that. What I am not fine with is the school STILL living off that glory and not striving (IMO) to get as close as possible to be a real deal program again. I do not believe the bar or expectations are set high enough by the program or many fans...just my opinion.
I would take Brad Stevens bland over charisma in 2017 and be very happy with that. Not being elite frustrates me big time. IMO not trying harder to be elite really frustrates me. For me, it really does come down to winning and winning all the time.
For the record, I was spoiled. I saw 80 of the 81 home wins during the sixth longest home winning streak in NCAA history in person. From a very early age (probably 4-5) MU basketball has been in our family's blood and I witnessed a lot of winning and winning doesn't suck.
Lastly, I have one recommendation that I wish MU ball program would follow. Forget about Al and they should build their own legacy. I am an Al freak and I tire of Al day at BC, or timeout on the Al McGuire Court or AL on the jersey and any other Al gimmick they pull to get old folks excited. I hope they try and bury the legend of Al by winning and winning big.
The primary reason I would like to see Wojo get hired away is that my expectations are high and are rooted in a desire to see MU regain our past glory. I just don't see Wojo as the guy to get us there. Crean/Buzz got us on the doorstep but we need an iconic dynamic and ,yes , highly motivational guy to bang the door down. Nobody will ever be another Al. However, there are plenty of good quality guys who could take our resources and put us in the top 10. With the New Big East , The new arena and the money we spend there is absolutely nothing standing in the way of our success if we really want it. Butler has a better chance to get there than we do right now and that tells you all you need to know about the expectations being set too low on our end.
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MU82
I would gladly discuss your question in detail over cocktails, my treat. That said, there is a divided BOT on how and what ball program means to the university. There has been lack of leadership in AD for a long time. Note---please do not tell me Bill Cords. The two major hires when Cords was here was done 100% outside influence and did around his back. That is a fact.
Again, next time you are in Milwaukee we can have a cocktail and discuss in detail. Honestly, tired of the fight and pissing off the fellow scoopers.
You do know that Doc Rivers is heavily involved in the basketball part as a BOT and was one to back the Wojo hire. I think he knows a bit about coaching and basketball.
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The primary reason I would like to see Wojo get hired away is that my expectations are high and are rooted in a desire to see MU regain our past glory. I just don't see Wojo as the guy to get us there. Crean/Buzz got us on the doorstep but we need an iconic dynamic and ,yes , highly motivational guy to bang the door down. Nobody will ever be another Al. However, there are plenty of good quality guys who could take our resources and put us in the top 10. With the New Big East , The new arena and the money we spend there is absolutely nothing standing in the way of our success if we really want it. Butler has a better chance to get there than we do right now and that tells you all you need to know about the expectations being set too low on our end.
You have no clue, let's see what happens in the next two years.
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You have no clue, let's see what happens in the next two years.
It will have No effect.
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It will have No effect.
Yeah, just hoping for a miracle I guess.
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TAMU
Please see my earlier post regarding Bill Cords. KO and Crean were handpicked and hired 95% without any help from Cords. I am going to leave at that, but the Cords argument actually goes on my side of the debate.
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TAMU
Please see my earlier post regarding Bill Cords. KO and Crean were handpicked and hired 95% without any help from Cords. I am going to leave at that, but the Cords argument actually goes on my side of the debate.
I missed that post. That's certainly an assertion.
I'm still curious on what basketball people you feel need to be included in the decision.
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TAMU
Will send you PM tomorrow.
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Brew
You are pretty easier grader on how elite looks like.
Goose
Just to follow up on this...I wouldn't put Wisconsin in the elite class, just that they've come from nowhere somewhat recently. I'm wondering who you would consider elite. Here's my list:
Blue Bloods: Duke, North Carolina, Kentucky, Kansas, Louisville, Michigan State
These are the teams that aren't just in the tournament every year, but competing for the Final Four every year. They can get top recruits, have a great fanbase, and are viewed as the glamour programs of college basketball.
Not far off: UCLA, Arizona, Villanova, Florida, Syracuse, Indiana, UConn
These teams aren't quite at that next echelon level. The kind of program that is one good hire away from being able to compete with the first bunch, but one bad hire away from fading into a decade of mediocrity.
I'd be happy with Marquette getting to either of these levels. I think we were pretty close to that second tier under Buzz, though looking at how fast and hard we fell, we certainly weren't close to the first tier. Really, I think the biggest thing is coaching consistency. The first tier always has a top-notch coach. Schools like Villanova and Florida, in particular, got there because of sustained runs from Wright and Donovan.
Villanova is the one that gives me hope. If they can do it, so can we. But it takes a long time, and I don't think you'll necessarily see quick returns. What program do you look at as our model in the past 20 years? If it's 'Nova, what do you see as different about where we are now and where Villanova was in 2004?
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Goose
Just to follow up on this...I wouldn't put Wisconsin in the elite class, just that they've come from nowhere somewhat recently. I'm wondering who you would consider elite. Here's my list:
Blue Bloods: Duke, North Carolina, Kentucky, Kansas, Louisville, Michigan State
These are the teams that aren't just in the tournament every year, but competing for the Final Four every year. They can get top recruits, have a great fanbase, and are viewed as the glamour programs of college basketball.
Not far off: UCLA, Arizona, Villanova, Florida, Syracuse, Indiana
These teams aren't quite at that next echelon level. The kind of program that is one good hire away from being able to compete with the first bunch, but one bad hire away from fading into a decade of mediocrity.
I'd be happy with Marquette getting to either of these levels. I think we were pretty close to that second tier under Buzz, though looking at how fast and hard we fell, we certainly weren't close to the first tier. Really, I think the biggest thing is coaching consistency. The first tier always has a top-notch coach. Schools like Villanova and Florida, in particular, got there because of sustained runs from Wright and Donovan.
Villanova is the one that gives me hope. If they can do it, so can we. But it takes a long time, and I don't think you'll necessarily see quick returns. What program do you look at as our model in the past 20 years? If it's 'Nova, what do you see as different about where we are now and where Villanova was in 2004?
UConn?
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UConn?
Yeah, I would add them to that "not far off" category. I think we'll have to see what Ollie's successor does. My guess is he gets one more year to right the ship. Ollie may well be that "one bad hire" that leads to a long stretch of mediocrity.
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Newsdrms
I have commented on Doc numerous times on here. Great guy, great intentions, but I believe he is more symbolic than anything else. Having Doc heavily involved during the NBA season has to be a distraction to him. He worked hard to land Shaka and ultimately Wojo. That said, I believe Wojo was an easy out for him and the BOT followed suit.
IMO having Doc involved in during NBA season is unfair to both parties. His focus has to be on his job and only has so many hours in the day. I look at this way, if I needed an lawyer for shoplifting charges during the OJ trial, I would not have contacted Johnnie Cochran. My guess is his focus would have been elsewhere.
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Yeah, I would add them to that "not far off" category. I think we'll have to see what Ollie's successor does. My guess is he gets one more year to right the ship. Ollie may well be that "one bad hire" that leads to a long stretch of mediocrity.
I'm not certain that Ollie isn't an ok hire. They had a lot of injuries and are reeling a little from the conference situation.
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Goose
Not far off: UCLA, Arizona, Villanova, Florida, Syracuse, Indiana, UConn
These teams aren't quite at that next echelon level.
Are you kidding me? Villanova is the defending national champion, a one-seed this year and one of the three or so teams deemed likely to be in Phoenix. No way Villanova is not an elite.
As for Indiana, not sure many Hoosier fans would agree. Last time I checked, disgruntled Hoosiers were leading the tanned one to the gallows, the rope already around his neck.
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dgies
I would gladly take Villanova "non elite" status for a 15 year run. I would have no problem being considered in the Not Far Off group:)
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Are you kidding me? Villanova is the defending national champion, a one-seed this year and one of the three or so teams deemed likely to be in Phoenix. No way Villanova is not an elite.
As for Indiana, not sure many Hoosier fans would agree. Last time I checked, disgruntled Hoosiers were leading the tanned one to the gallows, the rope already around his neck.
Did you even read the sentences after the one you included? Villanova is a great team, but would they sustain this level of success if Jay Wright left for the NBA next month? I'm skeptical. And Indiana is one good hire away from being back on top. Crean had them darn close to that (27+ wins 3/5 years, back atop the AP poll for a time) and while he may not be that "one good hire", they haven't fallen into mediocrity just yet.
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Goose, I have been keeping up with this thread from the beginning, and I can't exactly figure out what you want here. You want someone with a basketball background, but Doc Rivers, who is a highly respected Marquette alum, BOT member and NBA coach, doesn't count because he is too busy?
You seem to be full of criticisms but lack specific solutions. Wojo was an "easy out?" They considered a former Final Four coach, a coach from another school coming off a Sweet 16, but felt that both were flawed. They made a run at one of the hottest mid major coaches around and fell short. And they ended up hiring a young assistant from one of the top programs to his first job, a model that worked extremely well for Marquette in the past, who laid out a vision for how he wanted to develop the program.
Who else should they have gone after? If you look at the coaching changes from 2014 and 2015, I see two names. First is Danny Manning who that same year went to Wake Forest from Tulsa. He has developed Wake in a similar manner to Wojo and doesn't seem to be better or worse at this point. The other is Steve Prohm who ended up at Iowa State the next year. That may have worked but not sure his style would have fit.
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Yeah, I would add them to that "not far off" category. I think we'll have to see what Ollie's successor does. My guess is he gets one more year to right the ship. Ollie may well be that "one bad hire" that leads to a long stretch of mediocrity.
Ollie had one bad year, this year, and it was related to losing 4 players for the season (who were expected to play major minutes). I don't get the impression at all from any of the people around me who live and breath UConn basketball thing he was "one bad hire" and actually think the opposite.
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It seems like every time people mention elite they keep forgetting to actually define it. We keep mentioning that Wisconsin isn't elite and yet they're a couple of baskets away from actually having a better stretch under Bo than we did under Al and yet we consider ourselves elite during Al's time. We mention programs that have sustained success as elite and programs that seems to be temporarily elite as just below, which is fine, but then other posters seems to think that the temporary programs are elite.
I think if you're going to start using the mention of elite you should have to include a pretty specific definition. Like for me a program can have an elite period like us in the 70s or Arkansas under Richardson but not actually be elite. Meanwhile Elite programs are the handful that have sustained championships and final fours consistently through multiple decades. To me a program shouldn't be considered elite or having an elite era without at least a Final Four in that time (Looking at you Mike Brey).
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Vinnie
Of course Doc counts and is highly respected, but he is one guy and happens to have a rather full plate. What I meant on Wojo being an "easy out" is simple, when Shaka was gone Doc went to comfortable place, Wojo. Not a bad thing, but IMO, it was an easy decision for MU to make once Doc signed off on him. Doc knew him, liked and respected him and Wojo is a good guy.
I will add, there have been several occasions that a group of basketball people have been involved in the hiring process and the results turned out very well, one S16 coach and one F4 coach. I also believe a committee of smart people is always better than a group of one.
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Goose
Just to follow up on this...I wouldn't put Wisconsin in the elite class, just that they've come from nowhere somewhat recently. I'm wondering who you would consider elite. Here's my list:
Blue Bloods: Duke, North Carolina, Kentucky, Kansas, Louisville, Michigan State
These are the teams that aren't just in the tournament every year, but competing for the Final Four every year. They can get top recruits, have a great fanbase, and are viewed as the glamour programs of college basketball.
Not far off: UCLA, Arizona, Villanova, Florida, Syracuse, Indiana, UConn
These teams aren't quite at that next echelon level. The kind of program that is one good hire away from being able to compete with the first bunch, but one bad hire away from fading into a decade of mediocrity.
I'd be happy with Marquette getting to either of these levels. I think we were pretty close to that second tier under Buzz, though looking at how fast and hard we fell, we certainly weren't close to the first tier. Really, I think the biggest thing is coaching consistency. The first tier always has a top-notch coach. Schools like Villanova and Florida, in particular, got there because of sustained runs from Wright and Donovan.
Villanova is the one that gives me hope. If they can do it, so can we. But it takes a long time, and I don't think you'll necessarily see quick returns. What program do you look at as our model in the past 20 years? If it's 'Nova, what do you see as different about where we are now and where Villanova was in 2004?
There is probably a third category that should be mentioned that have been consistent tourney teams over the last 10-20 years, occasionally sneaking their way deeper into the tourney, but without the same recruiting appeal as the ones listed above. Off the top of my head, I'd nominate Gonzaga, Wisconsin, Xavier, Butler, Notre Dame, maybe UConn into that group. Before our recent slide, this is the group I would have put us in. I hope we are close to regaining that ground, and think that is definitely within Wojo's potential.
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It seems like every time people mention elite they keep forgetting to actually define it. We keep mentioning that Wisconsin isn't elite and yet they're a couple of baskets away from actually having a better stretch under Bo than we did under Al and yet we consider ourselves elite during Al's time. We mention programs that have sustained success as elite and programs that seems to be temporarily elite as just below, which is fine, but then other posters seems to think that the temporary programs are elite.
I think if you're going to start using the mention of elite you should have to include a pretty specific definition. Like for me a program can have an elite period like us in the 70s or Arkansas under Richardson but not actually be elite. Meanwhile Elite programs are the handful that have sustained championships and final fours consistently through multiple decades. To me a program shouldn't be considered elite or having an elite era without at least a Final Four in that time (Looking at you Mike Brey).
Right now there are about 5 elite programs, elite programs to me are programs that can recruit Top 20 kids every year. MU did that with Al. Kansas, Kentucky, Arizona, North Carolina, Duke right now. 2nd Tier programs get good players but maybe not the elite athletics. Wisky, Villy, Syracuse, UCLA, Gonzaga. Then 3rd
tier are teams that pluck a good kid everyonce in awhile and make a run in the NCAA. Buzz and MU were there, Notre Dame. Al had MU as an elite program, it was
not the school, it was Al. Wojo works his ass off, can not ask for more. Again, the new arena has to become a new recruiting tool. See in 2 years if he can recruit
some elite athletes.
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It seems like every time people mention elite they keep forgetting to actually define it. We keep mentioning that Wisconsin isn't elite and yet they're a couple of baskets away from actually having a better stretch under Bo than we did under Al and yet we consider ourselves elite during Al's time. We mention programs that have sustained success as elite and programs that seems to be temporarily elite as just below, which is fine, but then other posters seems to think that the temporary programs are elite.
Agreed completely. Honestly, I'm hesitant to really call Duke elite because I'm not sure what they'll look like after Coach K leaves. The programs that stand the test of time and succeed with coach after coach, schools like UNC, Kansas, and Kentucky really stand apart. Some will say UCLA, but they have one title since Wooden left and none in over 20 years. Is that elite? They had that great stretch under Howland, then fired him.
I really don't know how you define it. I think if people want Marquette to be in a class with UNC and Kansas, that's just unattainable. Having a great run, like we did under Al and felt like we were close to again from 2002-2014, that's perfectly viable.
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Brewcity
You do realize under Al we had a decade long period of being ranked in the top 10? That we had the second highest winning % in the country during that time period? We were Kansas or whomever you want to compare them to. We were not in the same zip code from'02-14 as the Al era.
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Brewcity
You do realize under Al we had a decade long period of being ranked in the top 10? That we had the second highest winning % in the country during that time period? We were Kansas or whomever you want to compare them to. We were not in the same zip code from'02-14 as the Al era.
Yes, I realize all that. I also realize that before Al, we were a nice program but nowhere near that level, and since Al left, we've been a nice program but nowhere near that level. The closest we came was 2002-2013. When I look at the past 100 years of history, it seems to me that the period Al was here was the anomaly.
I guess my question is where your expectations are at. Which current program do you feel is the best model for us to follow? How long do you expect it will take to get there? Who would have been a better hire than Wojo at the time when you consider the available candidates?
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Brew
I have posted many times on what my expectations are for the program. It simply comes down to the expectations the program sets for itself. If they said they wanted to model Xavier, fine by me...just do it. If they said Villanova was the model, fine by me...just do it. If they said Kansas was the model, fine by me...just do it.
Basically, I believe many here feel the university has high standards and expectations for the program. Honestly, I have no idea what they are and I always am going to assume the highest bar possible. Hence, I feel frustrated on the results.
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Brewcity
You do realize under Al we had a decade long period of being ranked in the top 10? That we had the second highest winning % in the country during that time period? We were Kansas or whomever you want to compare them to. We were not in the same zip code from'02-14 as the Al era.
It should also be noted we achieved this success during a period when teams were allowed to stockpile good players.
We were not only an elite team , we were the consensus number 2 program in the period behind the great UCLA program. The best high school players dreamed of playing for MU. Our teams were feared.
The big mistake was hiring Hank to replace Al. Maybe we had no choice but there were more dynamic guys available who would have continued the tradition. Denny Crum, Dick Vitale etc
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MFINY
Al had Mark Aquire locked up, we would have gotten Terry Cummings, Teddy Grubbs. We likely would have locked up McRay brothers under Al. The pipeline from NYC/Jersey and Chicago was a well oiled machine.
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I will add, there have been several occasions that a group of basketball people have been involved in the hiring process and the results turned out very well, one S16 coach and one F4 coach. I also believe a committee of smart people is always better than a group of one.
I'll ask again. Who? Who are these "basketball people" that were involved before but not now? I'm curious if they were also involved for the Deane hire, because that didn't seem to work out. Buzz was also a hire that I'm certain pissed off a lot of "basketball people" but was arguably the most successful of the group.
It seems to me that most of the concern seems to be that "basketball people" were left out of the hiring decision. If Wojo is successful, does that concern go away like it did with Buzz?
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TAMU
With all due respect, you have insiders at MU...you find out who the "basketball" people were during KO and TC hiring process. As for Buzz, obviously he was not successful hire because he was no longer wanted at MU. His success on the court did not overshadow the off court issues.
After wasting way too much time on this discussion, I really don't care. Hope we win tomorrow and they give us something to look forward to.
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TAMU
With all due respect, you have insiders at MU...you find out who the "basketball" people were during KO and TC hiring process. As for Buzz, obviously he was not successful hire because he was no longer wanted at MU. His success on the court did not overshadow the off court issues.
After wasting way too much time on this discussion, I really don't care. Hope we win tomorrow and they give us something to look forward to.
I wasn't looking for names. Just for categories. Former players? Former coaches? Search firms that specialize in coaching hires? I'm just curious what qualifies as a basketball person.
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Vinnie
Of course Doc counts and is highly respected, but he is one guy and happens to have a rather full plate. What I meant on Wojo being an "easy out" is simple, when Shaka was gone Doc went to comfortable place, Wojo. Not a bad thing, but IMO, it was an easy decision for MU to make once Doc signed off on him. Doc knew him, liked and respected him and Wojo is a good guy.
I will add, there have been several occasions that a group of basketball people have been involved in the hiring process and the results turned out very well, one S16 coach and one F4 coach. I also believe a committee of smart people is always better than a group of one.
Fred Allen: A Camel is a Horse designed by a Committee.
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Vinnie
Of course Doc counts and is highly respected, but he is one guy and happens to have a rather full plate. What I meant on Wojo being an "easy out" is simple, when Shaka was gone Doc went to comfortable place, Wojo. Not a bad thing, but IMO, it was an easy decision for MU to make once Doc signed off on him. Doc knew him, liked and respected him and Wojo is a good guy.
When hired, Wojo was a 37-year-old with no prior head coaching experience at any level, and who'd spent his entire coaching career with a program that pretty much sells/sustains itself. There's a world of difference between recruiting kids to Duke and recruiting kids to Marquette.
I'm not sure I'd qualify that as a "comfortable" hire.
Howland or Martin would have been the comfortable hire. Wojo was much more of an unknown/risk.
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Touching on something that was mentioned before, can MU be elite in this era of paying a father or an AAU coach to be on "staff"? I have spoken with some fairly high level AAU coaches and the stories they tell are ridiculous. Players and their handlers trying to monetize every step of the process. Also regarding Jucos and kids with less than stellar GPA's I am fine with recruiting those kids as long as they are prepared to put fourth the effort to get an education.
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Pakuni
There was no baggage with Wojo and no immediate need to win, hence the safe hire. Shaka would have been given time because he first choice, Howland (who really was not much of candidate) or Martin would have been expected to perform quickly. Wojo was the safest hire ever, IMO.
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When hired, Wojo was a 37-year-old with no prior head coaching experience at any level, and who'd spent his entire coaching career with a program that pretty much sells/sustains itself. There's a world of difference between recruiting kids to Duke and recruiting kids to Marquette.
I'm not sure I'd qualify that as a "comfortable" hire.
Howland or Martin would have been the comfortable hire. Wojo was much more of an unknown/risk.
MU has taken a chance on Kevin O'Neal, Tom Crean, Buzz and now Wojo. All assistant coaches, all successful so I can see how they picked an assistant. I think
assistants have something to prove and all of them worked hard to recruit. Not like Mike Deane, who hated to recruit. It is a young mans job. MU does have the
resources to compete against anybody when it comes to recruiting.
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When hired, Wojo was a 37-year-old with no prior head coaching experience at any level, and who'd spent his entire coaching career with a program that pretty much sells/sustains itself. There's a world of difference between recruiting kids to Duke and recruiting kids to Marquette.
I'm not sure I'd qualify that as a "comfortable" hire.
Howland or Martin would have been the comfortable hire. Wojo was much more of an unknown/risk.
This, and to think that Doc is too busy, has a full plate and just goes through the motions is silly.