Is the hiring process still flawed??

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

This argument is awful, guys.

Too many quotes and too many personal attacks.

Give it a rest.

[Henry Sugar]

This argument is awful, guys.

Too many quotes and too many personal attacks.

Give it a rest.

What he said...

[ChicosBailBonds]

Chicos,
Regarding best program in the state, do you think they will beat us this year at home?  Despite the recent changes to our program, I just don't see it.

I think Marquette will beat Wisconsin in Milwaukee this year.  Senior leadership, in Milwaukee = MU win.

Wisconsin is the best program currently in the state....10 straight NCAAs, multiple conference titles (even though their conference is weaker then the Big East), multiple conference tourney titles, etc.  I think their brand of hoops blows, it's boring, very little creativity for individual players, if they get behind by a large margin they're cooked, etc.  But their program is the best in the state right now, in my opinion. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

Why on earth would I apologize,  Williams and his coach made it abundantly clear he would only consider MU or whatever school Buzz went to if he did not get the MU. 

Exactly...and that was Indiana.  Just as his coach said.  You asked for the quotes and stories, I provided them.  And now your own words confirm what I said which was that there were two schools...IU and MU.  Direct quote which you just ignore.

Of course the irony or ironies is that Buzz is at MU right now because of Crean hiring him initially and then Crean pushing hard that MU hire him as the head coach.  Will you hold that against Buzz?     Since Crean engineered it does that hurt your man crush?

[classof70]

As I recall Mark Few was an assistant hired without looking anywhere else.  Is that a bad hire too because the process was supposedly flawed?  Heck, I think there were posters who wanted MU to take a run at him, even though he'd never leave GU  or Spokane for MU. 

[RawdogDX]

As I recall Mark Few was an assistant hired without looking anywhere else.  Is that a bad hire too because the process was supposedly flawed?  Heck, I think there were posters who wanted MU to take a run at him, even though he'd never leave GU  or Spokane for MU. 

great metaphore!   

[ChicosBailBonds]

As I recall Mark Few was an assistant hired without looking anywhere else.  Is that a bad hire too because the process was supposedly flawed?  Heck, I think there were posters who wanted MU to take a run at him, even though he'd never leave GU  or Spokane for MU. 

Have you spoken to a GU fan of late...many want him out.  Feel they have underachieved at GU.  But as we've said ad nauseum there are examples of it working and examples of it not working.  Examples of coaches at midmajors working and examples of midmajor head coaches not working.  The argument can go on forever.

MU went after Miller and Bennett....Crean pushed his guy hard.....his guy was hired and so far he's doing well.  Let's hope it continues.  We'll know in a few years.

[mviale]

Have you spoken to a GU fan of late...many want him out.  Feel they have underachieved at GU.  But as we've said ad nauseum there are examples of it working and examples of it not working.  Examples of coaches at midmajors working and examples of midmajor head coaches not working.  The argument can go on forever.

MU went after Miller and Bennett....Crean pushed his guy hard.....his guy was hired and so far he's doing well.  Let's hope it continues.  We'll know in a few years.

Mission accomplished

[Marquette84]

84...Well then, anyone we would have recruited would have filled the hole that Nick Williams left...Mother Teresa would have filled the hole if you're going down that path.  Yes, a body does fill that hole.

What's with the stupid all-or-nothing analogies.  First you try to imply that I stated that Butler was better than Nick Wiliams.  Then you tried to suggest that he's no better than a 80 year old woman who's been dead for 11 years.

Instead of some convoluted attempt at eggagerating my statement, how about taking my comment in proper context (which I assumed you were intelligent enough to assume without my spelling it out). MU had a hole.  Buzz signed a guy who by all reports is a Big-East calibre player.  Buzz signed that player over an offer from the #2 team in the SEC, who originally signed him out of HS.   Buzz did so in the first week of being named Head Coach. I think that qualifies as a recruiting success. 

The national coach of the year didn't land anybody close to Butler's ability in his first week on the job at Providence. 

On the Wisconsin thing....again, if I'm misinterpreting, then by all means I apologize.  I took your comments to mean we got "big" from the state of Wisconsin, something we haven't been able to do in a long time in winning over a recruit from the Badger state.  Only problem with that is the last 4 recruits we've lost have all been to the Wisconsin Badgers.  The Badgers were not giving an offer to Maymon so the shine of winning this big seems a bit different then the others we have lost to UW-Madison in the past....simply because UW-Madison wasn't a player involved in the recruitment.

You seem smart.  I'm not going to spell it out any further.

It's absurd for you to argue that landing Maymon doesn't count as a recruiting win.

On your last point...I'd be curious exactly where Buzz was going to be other then at Marquette or Indiana (as an assistant...which wasn't going to happen because Crean was pushing for Buzz to take the MU job which is why he didn't take him to begin with)....or more importantly, what head coaching job was he going to be at other then Marquette?

Let's look at this very simply:

Scenario 1:  Crean leaves Buzz behind to go for the MU head coach job.  MU hires Buzz.

Scenario 2:  Crean leaves Buzz behind to go for the MU head coach job.  MU waits a week and interviews others, and hires one of them over Buzz.  Buzz rejoins Crean at Indiana.  Buzz is most definitely NOT still at MU after a week.

In Scenario 2, MU loses Fulce, Otule, Butler, Maymon, E. Williams and either McNeal or James. 

You do realize that Crean wanted Buzz to get this gig...right?  MU went after Miller and Bennett and in the background was Buzz as the next option with Crean pushing hard.  Buzz wasn't going anywhere...absolutely not going anywhere if MU wanted to wait another week.  NOWHERE!

I'm sorry if I misunderstood--I thought you wanted MU to actually interview other coaches and give them due consideration during that that extra week.

Now, perhaps I'm confused by this whole "interview other candidates" thing that you wanted MU to do, but it seems to me that one possible outcome when you "interview" someone is that you might wind up offering THEM the job, rather than the guy you already interviewed.

Or did you just want a sham delay in the process, where no other candidates would be considered. 

Again, I thought my post was pretty clear--one of the possible outcomes of waiting a week to interview others is that you hire one of them instead of Buzz.  And in that case, if MU actually hires someone other than Buzz, it throws cold water on your statement that Buzz wasn't going anywhere.  I think even you would admit that if Brad Brownell were hired, then Buzz almost certainly would have gone somehere--almost certainly to Indiana.

[THEGYMBAR]

Crean did not want Buzz at IU he wanted Buzz at MU because he felt he could beat Buzz easier. Strong bought into the TC support and the rest is history. In my opinion allowing TC any say in the hire is what really makes the process flawed.

If we lose players without the Buzz hire who cares? Every new coach loses players, sometimes on purpose. The only guy that was returning that we could lose was Mbakwe. Everyone else had nowhere to go.

In regards to recruits for next year, you cannot speculate on who comes or not. New coach maybe would hate Maymon or love him more than Buzz. Every coach recruits players for different reasons.

[classof70]

Have you spoken to a GU fan of late...many want him out.  Feel they have underachieved at GU.  But as we've said ad nauseum there are examples of it working and examples of it not working.  Examples of coaches at midmajors working and examples of midmajor head coaches not working.  The argument can go on forever.

MU went after Miller and Bennett....Crean pushed his guy hard.....his guy was hired and so far he's doing well.  Let's hope it continues.  We'll know in a few years.

In fact I have spoken to many, having served on a Board at GU.  As you know, success in many seasons brings expectations for greater success in all seasons.  So, there are always  some who immediately want a coach out when in one season the expectations aren't met.  I predict Few will be there as long as he wants, that he will continue to have  success at a mid major university that has developed a strong national reputation.  He recruits pretty well.   Finally,  I think the vast majority of GU students, alum and faculty are BIG supporters of Few.

[Pardner]

This is some good entertainment now that the reruns are starting on TV.  Let's face it, for the biggest Buzz supporters like myself, he was, at best, our 4th choice.  I liked Buzz as he can recruit--and I feel he can recruit at a high level.  But, let's look at progress so far:

>>He can get high recruits to commit to him and MU as a head coach.

>>His staff looks to be better than the optimists here thought based on the offers and mentions. 

>>Every one of Buzz's recommits or recruits mentioned religion.  Buzz has adopted this as a sell point about MU.  "It's Gesu, it's Gesu"

>>Buzz is VERY organized.  He took care of business first--hiring, recruiting, retaining, preparing--vs. alumni, fan relations.  Good to have a basketball coach again.  His Krause interview showed that.

>>The quick hire helped us in recruiting.

So far so good as I hoped.   Top shelf job by the Buzz Man!

[MR.HAYWARD]

Gymbar...you can not honestly fully beleive what you typed here....

"Crean did not want Buzz at IU he wanted Buzz at MU because he felt he could beat Buzz easier. Strong bought into the TC support and the rest is history. In my opinion allowing TC any say in the hire is what really makes the process flawed. "

I mean seriously beat Buzz?  When will he ever play Buzz and if you mean on the recruiting trail Buzz will be only 1 of many other suitors for kids we are both going up against.  Why would he hire Buzz if he thought he was so incompitent, and you really think he hired Buzz as part of a master plan so that when he got a job somewhere else he could recommend Buzz and then go steal all the guys Buzz recruited in future years?  Boy that is really a stretch...pretty poorly thought out.

Let me give you my version...Crean like him or not and i never have...hired him becuase he new he was a very very very well regarded young coach that could recruit like a amdman which is critical in a BCS conference, or any conference for that matter.  Then upon leaving he supposedly gave Mu a recommendation of Buzz, we then have no idea of what weight Mu put on that Buzz's hiring could be completely exclusive of that Cottingham could have been on top of crean's master conspiracy of identifying Buzz as some loser that he could put in his place when he moved on.  But nevertheless, it is in buzz's best interest to remain friends with Crean.  Similar to dean Smith recommending jim Boylan to Mu becuase he was out of schollies would it not make sense for crean to recommend a kid that wanted to go to IU to a school like Mu because he though Buzz would do a good job with him and Buzz was his friend over that same kid going to a illinois or a Purdue?  If IU and Mu both identify the same kid and recruit him along with say a MSU, and a Purdue and then IU takes a verbal from another kid filling them up on schollies it is only in Creans best interest to call that kid and say sorry junior but we just took a verball from so and so but i really like you and your game and I think Mu would be a tremendous place you really should consider MU.  Not only does it help a friend but more importantly for Crean it keeps him out of the Big Ten. 
I have never really liked Crean but buzz having a relationship with crean is good for Buzz and good for Mu therefore.  Just like dean smith not wanting boylan at a Maryland and also having a realitonship with Al was good for al and good for Mu.

[THEGYMBAR]

Mr. Hayward---My point is actually right on target, trust me. Never said TC hired Buzz as some master plan. As thing unfolded TC pushed hard for Buzz for two reasons:
1. He felt he could outrecruit Buzz, which in theory he did by getting NW and others.
2. Felt Buzz would go backwards, thus making his legacy appear that much better.

You can believe or not believe me. But, this is not just some crazy theory. TC pushed Strong hard for Buzz and he got it done. It was not out of loyalty to Buzz because there was no long relationship between the two.

Judging by Buzz's recruiting, especially of players I happen to love, TC might have shot himself in the foot. Time will tell. If you thought I meant IU would beat MU on the court my apologies. I assumed my point of beating MU in recruiting would be understood. TC wants nothing more than Buzz to fail.

FYI---I am beginning to believe that Buzz is slippery in a good way. He might be using TC and will end up beating him. I think Buzz knows how to close a deal.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Mr. Hayward---My point is actually right on target, trust me. Never said TC hired Buzz as some master plan. As thing unfolded TC pushed hard for Buzz for two reasons:
1. He felt he could outrecruit Buzz, which in theory he did by getting NW and others.
2. Felt Buzz would go backwards, thus making his legacy appear that much better.

You can believe or not believe me. But, this is not just some crazy theory. TC pushed Strong hard for Buzz and he got it done. It was not out of loyalty to Buzz because there was no long relationship between the two.

Judging by Buzz's recruiting, especially of players I happen to love, TC might have shot himself in the foot. Time will tell. If you thought I meant IU would beat MU on the court my apologies. I assumed my point of beating MU in recruiting would be understood. TC wants nothing more than Buzz to fail.

FYI---I am beginning to believe that Buzz is slippery in a good way. He might be using TC and will end up beating him. I think Buzz knows how to close a deal.

So you think TC is smart enough and shrewd enough to pull off a plan to get Buzz into place at MU (with an expectation that he will be able to beat Buzz)... but TC isn't smart enough to know that Buzz might actually be a good coach?

Just not sure that makes a lot of sense.

[THEGYMBAR]

2002mualum---Buzz might end being a crappy coach. While excited about signing of Maymon I am not yet suggesting we retire the # '09 in honor of Buzz's first year. Time will tell if TC was right. But I can say this, TC and 6 billion other people on the planet would not have hired Buzz at MU. So, yes TC is shrewd enough to get Buzz hired.

If you were TC and needed kids would you rather have Buzz announced as new coach or an established coach. Come on and think things out. In TC's mind the worst thing that could happen is Buzz continues what he established. If I were him that would be a risk I would take anyday of the week. Hopefully Buzz outsmarts him. If he keeps promising starting jobs he will get players.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I'm in no way saying that Buzz is a great coach (still TBD).

However, in your previous post you implied that you thought Buzz was going to be successful.

I'm just saying:

You think Buzz will be succesful.

You think Crean was smart enough and powerful enough to put Buzz in that position.

But, Crean didn't know how good Buzz could be?


I'm not saying that Buzz is a known commodity... but if Crean is smart enough to try and get Buzz hired (in an effort to limit competition), don't you think Crean could/would realize Buzz might be really good?

I realize the alternative might have been Keno Davis or somebody... but if Crean is smart enough to figure out a way to name his replacement (as you are convinced of) then he should be smart enough to know if Buzz would be better or worse than the other names out there.

I guess my point is, I don't think Crean is as smart or shrewd as you think. I don't think he is the one who got Buzz hired in an effort to make himself look better.

[MR.HAYWARD]

gymbar...you state....

"Mr. Hayward---My point is actually right on target, trust me. Never said TC hired Buzz as some master plan. As thing unfolded TC pushed hard for Buzz for two reasons:
1. He felt he could outrecruit Buzz, which in theory he did by getting NW and others.
2. Felt Buzz would go backwards, thus making his legacy appear that much better.

You can believe or not believe me. But, this is not just some crazy theory. TC pushed Strong hard for Buzz and he got it done. "


How in the heck could you have any knowledge of this?

[mu03eng]

I'm in no way saying that Buzz is a great coach (still TBD).

However, in your previous post you implied that you thought Buzz was going to be successful.

I'm just saying:

You think Buzz will be succesful.

You think Crean was smart enough and powerful enough to put Buzz in that position.

But, Crean didn't know how good Buzz could be?


I'm not saying that Buzz is a known commodity... but if Crean is smart enough to try and get Buzz hired (in an effort to limit competition), don't you think Crean could/would realize Buzz might be really good?

I realize the alternative might have been Keno Davis or somebody... but if Crean is smart enough to figure out a way to name his replacement (as you are convinced of) then he should be smart enough to know if Buzz would be better or worse than the other names out there.

I guess my point is, I don't think Crean is as smart or shrewd as you think. I don't think he is the one who got Buzz hired in an effort to make himself look better.

This is like those people who say 9/11 was a Bush conspiracy and in the next breath say he is a moron who can't get out of his own way.

You can't be selectively smart

[ChicosBailBonds]

This is like those people who say 9/11 was a Bush conspiracy and in the next breath say he is a moron who can't get out of his own way.

You can't be selectively smart

DING DING DING DING. I was going to say the same thing yesterday but afraid that it would be construed as political.  Exactly right.  The same people that say the greatest most elaborate crime in human history would be pulled of by this guy are the same people that say he can't tie his shoes.  Uhm, ok.

[THEGYMBAR]

2002---I hope Buzz is successful. Actually I might be the only person on here that has the opinion that Buzz might be slippery enough to be good. I think Buzz might do almost anything to get players. I love that kind of recruiting. To me grades and good behavior is for the rest of the student body that does not play ball. We are not Duke, lets recruit basketball players then students. When MU gives out academic scholarships they do not look at the kids potential influence in intramural ball so why hold ball players to different standards.

TC might have under estimated Buzz. TC took a risk and we will See how it plays out.

Hayward---You think I would tell you how I know?

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

TC might have under estimated Buzz. TC took a risk and we will See how it plays out.

Hayward---You think I would tell you how I know?

Again, TC is smart enough and shrewd enough to get Buzz hired, but didn't realize Buzz might actually be a good coach?

TC worked with Buzz for a year... if TC is smart enough to manipulate Strong and MU, he is certainly smart enough to know what Buzz is capable of.

I subscribe to Occam's Razor... and this doesn't fit.

[MR.HAYWARD]

I agree with the others and think that gymbar's argument are boderline delusional.  Maybe just maybe Crean left MU in a good manner, what if that had happened would his recommendation of Buzz still be construe by gymbar as a conspiracy?  Or even crazier still maybe crean although he left Mu still has trmendous feelings for Mu and wants them to hire the best possible coach and felt it was Buzz for the same reasons he hired him in the first place?  just a thought.  Seems more logical that the grassy knoll theories coming form gymbar

[THEGYMBAR]

2002--Why are you so convinced that Buzz will prove TC wrong and actually be good? I am hoping he is but the jury is still out. Odds are still big time in the camp that Buzz fails and gets canned.

[mu03eng]

2002--Why are you so convinced that Buzz will prove TC wrong and actually be good? I am hoping he is but the jury is still out. Odds are still big time in the camp that Buzz fails and gets canned.

Point to a shred of evidence since Buzz became the head coach at Marquette that points to his likelihood of failing????

So far has he only done good.  That doesn't mean he can't fail, as we have seen him coach, make in-game adjustments, etc. but to date no evidence has surfaced that says he can't succeed.