Buffalo shooting, take 2

[TallTitan34]

Think about this:  The leading cause of death in children (age 0-19) in the United States is firearm related incidents beating out motor vehicle crashes.

Our children are more likely to die from a gun than any other cause.

That's insane.

[noblewarrior]

Bringing me back to analyzing sample size for predictive effect in my polysci class taught by Dr. McAdams.

1317 is probably sufficient to have a decent predictive power. Most opinion polls aren't going to be much higher than that. The sampling methodology is where you'll find bias, not in the respondent count when you're in this range.

More to the point though, what is it about the responses in this poll that made you reflexively doubt its validity?

I agree with the methodology comment... for sure.  Who was polled, context of the polling, location, etc...

1) mental health - sure/yes.  How is the funding allocated.  Who's the target.  Does this help mitigate the homicide rate in densely populated areas or is this targeted at mass shootings not gang related?

2)background checks @ gun shows and private party sales - have you tried buying a gun at a gun show?  They background check.  I don't know about nationally, but my state requires all person to person sales goes through a FFL... with a background check.  So these laws exist and are not difficult to follow.  Now getting people to know they exist is another question.  Now, what about inheritance... Mom dies and daughter inherits guns?  ... are we approaching a registry here?  Big brother?  Got to remember why the 2nd amendment exists.     

3) Red Flag Laws - I touched on this in the other thread... maybe this one, can't remember.  There may be something here but the devil is in the details... they would need to have a high bar in what would be a qualifying circumstance for law enforcement to snag a someone's fire arm(s)... same with declaring someone mentally unfit.  There would need to be some type of high bar criteria to act of a red flag claim.  Simply being on a mild anti depressant for anxiety or a phone call from a jaded ex would be week sauce. 

4) License to own a gun - It is a right and not a privilege to own a fire arm...Do you need to provide ID to authorities if found in possession?  I don't know but maybe this should be a thing... are you in legal possession?  It's a privilege to drive a car... it's a right to vote. 

5) High capacity mags - I'm not digging the stats up but for law enforcement, I think it's 1 in 7 rounds find there target.  I don't think that 1 round even counts as the stopping round, just contact with target.  try to think of a situation involving multiple assailants and what would be needed to defend yourself.  Example.. David Dorn wasn't armed but everyone favorite vigilante was.  One is dead, the other alive. 

5) Ban semi automatic weapons - that's a gun ban.  Pretty much everything is semi auto.  As some of the above could be worked with in some manner... this is crazy town.

6) Buy back assault weapons - My hammers are an assault weapons.  I want my fire arms to assault, stop, and kill if needed.  Come up with a universal definition and we can talk.  Fully autos are already banned and one needs a special license for those.  Of course there are go arounds and after market parts that can make this happen with no one knowing so there's something to attempting to restrict that market to enforce current law.

7) Allow teachers to carry - ugh.  Not a fan.  Not enough training time in a day and a year for me to be comfortable with this... The teacher would need to be coming into the position with a very select skill set for me to be comfortable with this. 

What I wrote here isn't exhaustive but can shed some light on where some of the disagreement may come from. 

Be better parents, mentors, educators, and neighbors... You won't need a fire arm if folks just abide by the Golden Rule.

Be angles, not devils... be saintly, not a sinner,.. choose good, not evil... and for those devils, sinners, and those who choose evil, we have fire arms for protection.   

[MUBurrow]

Is it possible to believe in most, but not all, policies of a group, and still remain a member of that group?  In other words, if one aligns with the majority of policies of one group or entity over those of another, is it possible to remain a member of the first group?  If the answer is yes, it seems that one should align him or herself with the group that most closely represents his or her beliefs, even though there's not 100% agreement on all policy.

'84 - is there any point at which this issue would be large enough for you to dissociate yourself with the group?  IOW, what would it take for the gun violence issue to sufficiently outweigh the other issues that you would vote for the other side? Or is there no imaginable universe where the gun issue is important enough to you to vote Dem?

[TSmith34, Inc.]

I agree with the methodology comment... for sure.  Who was polled, context of the polling, location, etc...

1) mental health - sure/yes.  How is the funding allocated.  Who's the target.  Does this help mitigate the homicide rate in densely populated areas or is this targeted at mass shootings not gang related?

2)background checks @ gun shows and private party sales - have you tried buying a gun at a gun show?  They background check.  I don't know about nationally, but my state requires all person to person sales goes through a FFL... with a background check.  So these laws exist and are not difficult to follow.  Now getting people to know they exist is another question.  Now, what about inheritance... Mom dies and daughter inherits guns?  ... are we approaching a registry here?  Big brother?  Got to remember why the 2nd amendment exists.     

3) Red Flag Laws - I touched on this in the other thread... maybe this one, can't remember.  There may be something here but the devil is in the details... they would need to have a high bar in what would be a qualifying circumstance for law enforcement to snag a someone's fire arm(s)... same with declaring someone mentally unfit.  There would need to be some type of high bar criteria to act of a red flag claim.  Simply being on a mild anti depressant for anxiety or a phone call from a jaded ex would be week sauce. 

4) License to own a gun - It is a right and not a privilege to own a fire arm...Do you need to provide ID to authorities if found in possession?  I don't know but maybe this should be a thing... are you in legal possession?  It's a privilege to drive a car... it's a right to vote. 

5) High capacity mags - I'm not digging the stats up but for law enforcement, I think it's 1 in 7 rounds find there target.  I don't think that 1 round even counts as the stopping round, just contact with target.  try to think of a situation involving multiple assailants and what would be needed to defend yourself.  Example.. David Dorn wasn't armed but everyone favorite vigilante was.  One is dead, the other alive. 

5) Ban semi automatic weapons - that's a gun ban.  Pretty much everything is semi auto.  As some of the above could be worked with in some manner... this is crazy town.

6) Buy back assault weapons - My hammers are an assault weapons.  I want my fire arms to assault, stop, and kill if needed.  Come up with a universal definition and we can talk.  Fully autos are already banned and one needs a special license for those.  Of course there are go arounds and after market parts that can make this happen with no one knowing so there's something to attempting to restrict that market to enforce current law.

7) Allow teachers to carry - ugh.  Not a fan.  Not enough training time in a day and a year for me to be comfortable with this... The teacher would need to be coming into the position with a very select skill set for me to be comfortable with this. 

What I wrote here isn't exhaustive but can shed some light on where some of the disagreement may come from. 

Be better parents, mentors, educators, and neighbors... You won't need a fire arm if folks just abide by the Golden Rule.

Be angles, not devils... be saintly, not a sinner,.. choose good, not evil... and for those devils, sinners, and those who choose evil, we have fire arms for protection.

So...turns out there is actually common ground from which to work on solutions.

WRT to 2 above, there is no universal background check, its state-by-state. Which makes the patchwork of laws relatively useless since there is nothing stopping me from getting my military grade weapons in Texas and taking them to any other state, for example.

Texas...smh...where Gove Abbott was positively crowing about the legislature last session passing a law that allows for open carry with "no checks and no requirements".

Be angles, not devils... be saintly, not a sinner,.. choose good, not evil... and for those devils, sinners, and those who choose evil, we have fire arms for protection

And lead me not into temptation, with my easily available stockpile of weapons and massive pile of ammunition with which to smite my neighbor that I am momentarily upset with.

[Mucubfan]

I agree with the methodology comment... for sure.  Who was polled, context of the polling, location, etc...

1) mental health - sure/yes.  How is the funding allocated.  Who's the target.  Does this help mitigate the homicide rate in densely populated areas or is this targeted at mass shootings not gang related? I am not a sociologist, but pretty sure that different approaches are required for each of these circumstances. Although some are trying to conflate the issue, the adults are talking about school shootings at the moment

2)background checks @ gun shows and private party sales - have you tried buying a gun at a gun show?  They background check.  I don't know about nationally, but my state requires all person to person sales goes through a FFL... with a background check.  So these laws exist and are not difficult to follow.  Now getting people to know they exist is another question.  Now, what about inheritance... Mom dies and daughter inherits guns?  ... are we approaching a registry here?  Big brother?  Got to remember why the 2nd amendment exists.Ergo the need for a federal law. It doesn't help when you can cross the state line and have way less barriers. Thanks for making our point.     

3) Red Flag Laws - I touched on this in the other thread... maybe this one, can't remember.  There may be something here but the devil is in the details... they would need to have a high bar in what would be a qualifying circumstance for law enforcement to snag a someone's fire arm(s)... same with declaring someone mentally unfit.  There would need to be some type of high bar criteria to act of a red flag claim.  Simply being on a mild anti depressant for anxiety or a phone call from a jaded ex would be week sauce.  They won't be perfect, but let me give you a bad example to show why we shouldn't do this.

4) License to own a gun - It is a right and not a privilege to own a fire arm...Do you need to provide ID to authorities if found in possession?  I don't know but maybe this should be a thing... are you in legal possession?  It's a privilege to drive a car... it's a right to vote.  Weird, you have to register to vote. It is also a limited right, (you can't vote in prison, when you are under 18, etc.

5) High capacity mags - I'm not digging the stats up but for law enforcement, I think it's 1 in 7 rounds find there target.  I don't think that 1 round even counts as the stopping round, just contact with target.  try to think of a situation involving multiple assailants and what would be needed to defend yourself.  Example.. David Dorn wasn't armed but everyone favorite vigilante was.  One is dead, the other alive.  There might be a gang of assailants coming to your suburban home, so better have an assault rifle. Ok?

5) Ban semi automatic weapons - that's a gun ban.  Pretty much everything is semi auto.  As some of the above could be worked with in some manner... this is crazy town.Noone is calling for this.

6) Buy back assault weapons - My hammers are an assault weapons.  I want my fire arms to assault, stop, and kill if needed.  Come up with a universal definition and we can talk.  Fully autos are already banned and one needs a special license for those.  Of course there are go arounds and after market parts that can make this happen with no one knowing so there's something to attempting to restrict that market to enforce current law.

7) Allow teachers to carry - ugh.  Not a fan.  Not enough training time in a day and a year for me to be comfortable with this... The teacher would need to be coming into the position with a very select skill set for me to be comfortable with this. 

What I wrote here isn't exhaustive but can shed some light on where some of the disagreement may come from. 

Be better parents, mentors, educators, and neighbors... You won't need a fire arm if folks just abide by the Golden Rule.

Be angles, not devils... be saintly, not a sinner,.. choose good, not evil... and for those devils, sinners, and those who choose evil, we have fire arms for protection.

[TallTitan34]

and for those devils, sinners, and those who choose evil, we have fire arms for protection.

In both cases good guys with firearms engaged the shooter.  How did those firearms for protection work?

[lawdog77]

I agree with the methodology comment... for sure.  Who was polled, context of the polling, location, etc...
2)background checks @ gun shows and private party sales - have you tried buying a gun at a gun show?  They background check.  I don't know about nationally, but my state requires all person to person sales goes through a FFL... with a background check.  So these laws exist and are not difficult to follow.  ... are we approaching a registry here?  Big brother?  Got to remember why the 2nd amendment exists.     

Only 21 states require background checks at gun shows.

[noblewarrior]

In both cases good guys with firearms engaged the shooter.  How did those firearms for protection work?

Killed by a boarder patrol officer in one case... how did the store incident end?  did people with guns show up?  I really don't know.

[noblewarrior]

Only 21 states require background checks at gun shows.

You sure?  I didn't know that. 

There's room to work here fellas...

[TSmith34, Inc.]

You sure?  I didn't know that. 

There's room to work here fellas...

Agreed. Nothing will be perfect, but doing nothing--and worse-- got us to where we are.

[noblewarrior]

Is this a burner account?  Day drinking?  Very snarky in your responses and not helping anyone who's willing to suffer through this thread process the situation. 

[dgies9156]

You'd have done yourself a favor by simply stating "Oh, I hadn't seen those." It's OK to miss things once in a while. But now you just look silly first claiming that Biden and Durbin never discuss Chicago violence, then refusing to acknowledge when they do.
As for how it's working, I don't know. I do know that homicides and shootings are down in Chicago this year. No idea how much of that, if any, is attributable to any specific law enforcement initiative.

OK, you win Brother Pakuni.

They said something. It meant absolutely nothing, but they said something.

Their comments are about a valuable as those of the Lovely Natalie as she stands in a pool of blood pointing at the gunshot victim and decrying the violence. Unlike the Lovely Natalie, they're in a position to do something other than exploit the situation ... but don't.

Yeah, I guess I moved the goalposts only because Senator Durbin is a leader for the majority party in the Senate. The Democrats have the majority in the House and the President willing to sign legislation that gets to his desk. Maybe as the majority party, if this means something more than a soundbite, maybe you Democrats ought to start negotiating and compromising, rather than crying and talking like Durbin, Biden and the Police Chief.

By the way, As to AR-15s, many of us Republicans would be perfectly happy if we get them off the streets. We'd be perfectly happy if we get high volume magazines out of circulation, along with bump stocks, armor piercing bullets and handguns with a barrel of less than seven inches. They're good ideas that have all been proposed and gone down in flaming defeat. The hand gun proposal was made by, God forbid, a heinous, satanic Republican.

Tom Railsback.

[JWags85]

'84 - is there any point at which this issue would be large enough for you to dissociate yourself with the group?  IOW, what would it take for the gun violence issue to sufficiently outweigh the other issues that you would vote for the other side? Or is there no imaginable universe where the gun issue is important enough to you to vote Dem?

I think this is the issue of the current era of hyper partisan politics.  And for better or for worse, I feel like so many politicians lead with financial plays.  Whether it be LOWER TAXES or MAKE THE WEALTHY PAY THEIR SHARE.

So if they have a Dem who has gun control in their platform, but on the lower priority, while the campaign on healthcare/taxes/etc...   against a GOP who campaigns on financial priorities they favor with gun control opposition on the back burner.  You're gonna have trouble swinging there.

I most closely identify with Blue Dogs, but they're basically extinct.  For someone like me, I'm as alienated by Ted Cruz or Josh Hawley as I am by The Squad or Elizabeth Warren.  I'm very open to gun control legislation but as a small business stakeholder with significant international exposure, my financial concerns are more nuanced than some covetous "NO MORE TAXES" greed.

[lawdog77]

You sure?  I didn't know that. 

There's room to work here fellas...

Yes, if you are a private seller, meaning now, if its not your primary source of income, you dont need to do a background check. The law used to be 4 or less guns in a year=private seller.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

OK, you win Brother Pakuni.

They said something. It meant absolutely nothing, but they said something.

Their comments are about a valuable as those of the Lovely Natalie as she stands in a pool of blood pointing at the gunshot victim and decrying the violence. Unlike the Lovely Natalie, they're in a position to do something other than exploit the situation ... but don't.

Yeah, I guess I moved the goalposts only because Senator Durbin is a leader for the majority party in the Senate. The Democrats have the majority in the House and the President willing to sign legislation that gets to his desk. Maybe as the majority party, if this means something more than a soundbite, maybe you Democrats ought to start negotiating and compromising, rather than crying and talking like Durbin, Biden and the Police Chief.

By the way, As to AR-15s, many of us Republicans would be perfectly happy if we get them off the streets. We'd be perfectly happy if we get high volume magazines out of circulation, along with bump stocks, armor piercing bullets and handguns with a barrel of less than seven inches. They're good ideas that have all been proposed and gone down in flaming defeat. The hand gun proposal was made by, God forbid, a heinous, satanic Republican.

Tom Railsback.

WTF are you even saying at this point?  You made a massively wrong assumption and then keep doubling down on your foolishness.

[noblewarrior]

This doesn't sound like a 'gun show' but a private sale... and can only do it four times.  I'm still not understanding but what's new... right Mucubfan?   

Yes, if you are a private seller, meaning now, if its not your primary source of income, you dont need to do a background check. The law used to be 4 or less guns in a year=private seller.

[lawdog77]

This doesn't sound like a 'gun show' but a private sale... and can only do it four times.  I'm still not understanding but what's new... right Mucubfan?

Gun shows allow private sales. Prior to 1986, private sales were only up to 4 guns a year. Now, it can be as many as you like, as long as it isn't your primary source of income. Indiana is a good example of this. Indiana allows private sales/no background checks at gun shows, and many end up in crimes committed in Chicago.

[Mucubfan]

Is this a burner account?  Day drinking?  Very snarky in your responses and not helping anyone who's willing to suffer through this thread process the situation.

Not a burner account. I said where I live further up in the thread. You want to know more?

I am intentionally being snarky. Most of the reasoning you gave in your long post  is shaky reasoning. Listing a bunch of poor reasons that proposals might fail leads to complacency. It literally helps no one unless that us the point. Now is a time for action. You made one solid point and I gave you credit.

When you start out a post comparing Chicago gang warfare with school shootings, two VERY different issues, it appears that you are intentionally blurring the lines. It’s infuriating to me.

But, I apologize for my snarkyness, 19 dead children ya know?

[noblewarrior]

Gun shows allow private sales. Prior to 1986, private sales were only up to 4 guns a year. Now, it can be as many as you like, as long as it isn't your primary source of income. Indiana is a good example of this. Indiana allows private sales/no background checks at gun shows, and many end up in crimes committed in Chicago.

I would agree Indiana would need to change this.  Learning.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

By the way, As to AR-15s, many of us Republicans would be perfectly happy if we get them off the streets. We'd be perfectly happy if we get high volume magazines out of circulation, along with bump stocks, armor piercing bullets and handguns with a barrel of less than seven inches. They're good ideas that have all been proposed and gone down in flaming defeat. The hand gun proposal was made by, God forbid, a heinous, satanic Republican.

Tom Railsback.

I mean, if you can name any gun control legislation that you can get 10 Senate Republicans to vote for, I bet you'd be able to bring the Dems along. But tell me what that that is, because I certainly don't know what it would be.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

My 2 year old had to do an active shooter drill at daycare today. My 2 year old. I refuse to accept that nothing can be done and my only recourse is to either homeschool or be terrified that I might send my daughter to school and never see her again for the next 16 years.

I don't give a sh*t at this point if you don't think regulation will work. No regulation hasn't worked for decades. Try something new and see if it helps. We can adjust in the future if necessary.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

My 2 year old had to do an active shooter drill at daycare today. My 2 year old. I refuse to accept that nothing can be done and my only recourse is to either homeschool or be terrified that I might send my daughter to school and never see her again for the next 16 years.

I don't give a sh*t at this point if you don't think regulation will work. No regulation hasn't worked for decades. Try something new and see if it helps. We can adjust in the future if necessary.

Yep yep.

[Uncle Rico]

My 2 year old had to do an active shooter drill at daycare today. My 2 year old. I refuse to accept that nothing can be done and my only recourse is to either homeschool or be terrified that I might send my daughter to school and never see her again for the next 16 years.

I don't give a sh*t at this point if you don't think regulation will work. No regulation hasn't worked for decades. Try something new and see if it helps. We can adjust in the future if necessary.

What about Chicago?

[4everwarriors]

I am pretty familiar with Barrington and your description is spot on.

So, Barrington was on your paper route, hey?

[Pakuni]

By the way, As to AR-15s, many of us Republicans would be perfectly happy if we get them off the streets. We'd be perfectly happy if we get high volume magazines out of circulation, along with bump stocks, armor piercing bullets and handguns with a barrel of less than seven inches. They're good ideas that have all been proposed and gone down in flaming defeat. The hand gun proposal was made by, God forbid, a heinous, satanic Republican.

A wise man once said "Quit talking and start doing!"
So, if you believe this way, why aren't you doing something. I suspect members of the Republican base would have far more influence over the policy decisions of Republican lawmakers than us bleeding heart lefties.
Start doing, Brother dgies. Start doing.