Scholarship table
They did. With basically two different teams. In his first run, he had Pippen, Grant, and Cartwright with the greats of Paxson and BJ Armstrong. In the second run, he had Pippen, Rodman, Harper, Longley, Kukoc. This being the teams most remember. During those runs he beat teams likeNY - Ewing, Jackson, Greg Anthony, Doc River, Mason, OakleyPacers - Miller, Mullen, Rose, JacksonLakers - Magic, Worthy, ValdyPiston - Thomas, Laimbeer, Dumars, RodmanMagic - Shaq, Penny, Nick AndersonSuns - Barkley, Kevin Johnson, AingeJazz, - Malone, StocktonPortland - Clyde Drexler, Ainge, DuckworthThat is the whose who of NBA Superstars.
I look at trying to name the GOAT as a fun debate. I don't take it too seriously but I can see the viewpoints of those who think it doesn't matter or comparing across eras being difficult. The game changes with time, plus it is hard to have an opinion of players you never see.That said, I'll vote Kareem as the GOAT (even though I only saw the later part of his career).6 titles10 Finals6 MVPs2 Finals MVPs#1 all time scoring#1 all time win shares (career)#1 win shares (single season)3 of top 7 single season win shares (Jordan's best was 9th)
See below.You give off the impression of sour grapes when Auburn (who is the best advanced stats guy IMO) does a write up on why Lebron is the GOAT including all the advanced stats that he is known for and your response is to immediately throw shade at the entire Eastern Conference for a decade. I get it, you're a Chicago guy. You'll defend the bulls and MJ until the day you die and nothing will change your mind.
Analytics are great but who you're playing against also matters. If you and Auburn want to discount that, it's your prerogative. It's just that in doing so, the analytics provided are incomplete.
I'll stick with my opinion on Gold. He'll be in foul trouble within the first eight minutes.
The end of the game showed the biggest difference in MJ and Lebron.Jordan absolutely takes the shot. Lebron, even though he has been hot the entire game, makes the best basketball play - a pass for a layup to Hill who had a bunny if Klay doesn't grab him going by.
I guess you thought that 2011-12 Thunder team with Durant, Westbrook, and Harden was just terrible, especially since Bosh (who was just a huge influence according to you) was hurt. That 2015-16 Warriors team that won a record 73 games, they were bad too. Lets face it, no team since 1999 is any good since they don't have to play against teams from the 90s. You can continue to tell yourself that basketball was better back then, but the fact is that players now are stronger, faster, better shooters, have more analytics helping them, and a larger foreign talent pool than ever before.
That thunder team was really young I was surprised they were favored in that series. I think they're referring to who lebron has played in the eastern playoffs... which hasn't been much in terms of all time great talent. Lowry and derozan are not all time greats. I suppose one could say Paul George but he'd be pretty darn low on that list. Those ancient Celtics maybe? That's about all that's coming to mind.
So beating a team with 3 future mvps on it doesn't count because it was in the finals and not earlier in the playoffs? That's absurd. The Bucks made t-shirts when they beat that warriors team once and LeBron doesn't get credit because it was in the finals rather than earlier in the playoffs? You can only play against the team that's in front of you, don't penalize a player because he didn't play the team with the greatest regular season of all time until the finals.
We’ve been discussing LeBron vs the weak East this whole time. Welcome to the party.
The OP is LeBron vs MJ, don't know where you've been, but there are two conferences and at the end of the season the best team from one conference plays the best team from the other, and whoever wins that is the NBA champs. You must be new to this
That's not how leagues with playoffs work.
How’s that?
All excellent points, but have a few disagreements here. He also lost to teams like those Pistons and Knicks, too. First MJ did not lose to the Knicks. As a matter of fact he even beat Ewing in College for his NCAA Championship. Second, the Pistons were a Dominant team during that stretch and Jordan overcame themWorthy didn't play in several of those games (he was hurt during one, missed another completely). Magic that was his last final, Lakers downslideYou make this sound like Magic was in a downward slide. He is only three years older than Jordan and left the league, not because of his skills but he got HIV. The Lakers as a team were still good but they weren't as good after Kareem retired (year before)How can you get Doc Rivers name wrong? I was saving my S's for all of your alternative factsA number of these guys were at the end of their careers. Danny Ainge? Averaged less than 10 points the year they went to the finals and only got above 10 points one more time in his career.Ainge was never a scorer. He was an orchestrator. Chris Mullin was a shadow of himself by the time he played for the Pacers. A good role player, but not the Chris Mullin of old.He was still good on a very good teamKJo's worst year from 1988-1994 was the year they went to the finals. Big drop off in avg points, avg assistsAlso the first year that he played with a determined BarkleyMJ and his team beat some great teams and great players. They also beat some players that used to be great, or teams that might have been great in other eras but not this time around (Lakers, for example).Ewing was in his primeMiller was in his primeBarkley was in his primeIsiah Thomas was still a dominant playerAlonzo Morning was in his primePenny was in his primeShaq was into prime steaks but was in the best physical condition of his careerThe big difference is that in Jordan's era the East was the dominant league. In Lebron's era the dominant league has been the West. The one thing Lebron has over Jordan is the number of NBA finals and number in a row. In the era of Lebron, he has basically waltzed into the finals and then lost to the dominant league.
Any league that has playoffs doesn't necessarily have the "best" teams playing for the championship. Seven game series is a lot better than a single elimination ( NBA vs NCAA, for example). But there's still no guarantee.
You make this sound like Magic was in a downward slide. He is only three years older than Jordan and left the league, not because of his skills but he got HIV. The Lakers as a team were still good but they weren't as good after Kareem retired (year before)Ainge was never a scorer. He was an orchestrator. Ewing was in his primeMiller was in his primeBarkley was in his primeIsiah Thomas was still a dominant playerAlonzo Morning was in his primePenny was in his primeShaq was into prime steaks but was in the best physical condition of his careerThe big difference is that in Jordan's era the East was the dominant league. In Lebron's era the dominant league has been the West. The one thing Lebron has over Jordan is the number of NBA finals and number in a row. In the era of Lebron, he has basically waltzed into the finals and then lost to the dominant league.
"before leaving to Miami to team up with a player almost at Pippen’s level in Wade."
Finally got around to reading through the OP. Pudner, I love your contributions to the MU & college hoops community as a whole. The value add database is awesome.But that sentence quoted, especially written by an MU alum no less, is figuratively a literal hate crime. Wade is significantly better than Pippen and it's not even close. He was a killer, a closer, an alpha dog. Top 25 all time, #3 SG.In the 2011 finals, games 2-4 were each decided by 1 possession. The Heat went 1-2 in those 3 games. If they win each one, it's a clean sweep, and Wade claims his second finals MVP by a decisive margin, in a series featuring Dirk, LeBron, and Bosh.Let's examine the stats for those 3 games.Wade: 32 PPG, 63.3% FG, 7.3 RPG, 3.3 APG, 0.7 TOPG (4.7:1 A/TO), 139 ORtgLeBron: 15 PPG, 42.5% FG, 6.7 RPG, 5.3 APG, 5.3 TOPG (1:1 A/TO), 93 ORtgBosh: 18 PPG, 37.7% FG, 5.7 RPG, 2.3 APG, 2.0 TOPG (1.1:1 A/TO), 86 ORtgSo Wade equaled their scoring output **combined**, outrebounded each of them despite giving up 5+ inches, and had a 5:1 assist to turnover ratio compared to their 1:1 ratio each (LeBron averaged as many turnovers as field goals made fercrisesake!!). And Wade's offensive efficiency rating of 139 would be the best in the history of the NBA if accomplished over the course of a full season, and it was better than any LeBron finals performance, while LeBron & Bosh’s ORtg was significantly worse than any of the "help" that gets routinely excoriated on the Cavs the past few years. Wade was WAY closer to Jordan than to Pippen.So my question is: where are all the fawning sonnets lamenting Wade's lack of "help" in 2011? Where are all the adjustments DOWN to LeBron's legacy for turning in such a trash performance with the best "help" conceivable from Wade? Where are all the adjustments up to Wade's legacy? They don't exist.This is what annoys me so much about LeBron Stans. The hypothetical adjustments only ever go one way (in LeBron's favor, as if no other player ever had extenuating circumstances affect his resume), and his excellent teammates are denigrated in an effort to build a David out of Goliath. I begrudgingly expect Wade to get glossed over and slighted by non-MU alums, but when I see it from people who should definitely know better, it really gets my goat!That's the last I will comment on the matter. Look forward to seeing the finalized value add database before the season starts!
Not sure if I meet the description of "LeBron Stans," but I do really admire his game. And I do agree with you about Wade in this instance you cite.Wade vs. Pippen? I don't need advanced stats to know it isn't even close. I saw both play hundreds and hundreds of games with my own eyes. Wade carried a team with an older Shaq and a bunch of role players to an NBA title, something Scottie couldn't have done in his wildest dreams. Wade is a top-20 (maybe higher) player all-time. Scottie was a fine wing-man.