Expectations

[Its DJOver]

On the contrary, I want every player on the roster to have scouting report that says "solid three point shooter" among other things, 1 through 5.

Imagine the possibilities.

I think Theo pulling up from 35 feet out might just kill some people on here

[mikekinsellaMVP]

sultan

Nick Foles caught a TD pass in the SB, should be utilized as WR? Believe what you want about players and skill sets. That said, do not be disappointed if your team teams do not live up to expectations.

Because one play is a totally apt comparison to multiple data points in a season?

Explain to me how forcing your man to close out your 3-point shot is is "the worst thing" for an athletic slasher looking for driving lanes.

[Silkk the Shaka]

Eagle

See my post re: X game. Making the four against X was worst thing for his development this year. To boot, fans lacking ball knowledge, urged him to shot the three ball. He has far more upside in other area's.

In the 19 games since X, he went 13/25 (52%) on 1.3 attempts per game. This is just a really, really bizarre complaint.

[MUBigDance]

I think this is a myth, though.
If you want to make an argument that Buzz's teams were way undervalued by preseason prognosticators, I'll agree with you. If you want to laud Buzz for finding talented players who were ignored/undervalued by recruiting services and the like, I'd say that's without a doubt Buzz's greatest strength as a coach.

But saying his teams punched above their weight just doesn't hold up when you look at the rosters. 
- The 2010 team that lost in the first round to #11 Washington featured two future first-round picks (Hayward, Butler) and two others who had a cup of coffee in the league (DJO, Buycks). Three of the four were upperclassmen.
- The 2011 team that squeaked into the tourney and then pulled out a couple upsets to go to the Sweet 16 had six future NBA players on the roster. All but one was an upperclassman.
- The 2009 team that eked past Utah State then lost in the second round had three future NBA players plus the program's all-time leading scorer. And all five starters were upperclassmen.
I think the only team you could argue punched above its weight class, when you consider the roster talent, was the 2013 squad.
These were not bands of scrappy overachievers. They were teams with high-level talent.

I think when you compare Buzz's rosters to Wojo's, especially in terms of experience, it's not even close. Wojo doesn't get a pass on this. His recruiting and roster management bears responsibility for why MU seems to be one of the least experienced (and least deep) teams in the league every year. But we seem to be turning the corner in that regard heading into next season, so expectations reasonably should be raised.

Pakuni, you’re wrong.
We only know they were NBA with hindsight. Crowder yes. But most all of them were surprises. My point is we were punching up. That is what it felt like. If you want to compare Crowder and JimmyB with anyone on our roster....I give! No contest. Hindsight is 20-20. But at the time most of the Buzz MU teams surprised with their achievement. It was exciting. Our current team have had inconsistent flashes.

It was no myth, I was one of the fans experiencing it. And to my surprise JimmyB became just about the best player in the NBA. Wow, you knew I that then?

[mikekinsellaMVP]

Pakuni, you’re wrong.
We only know they were NBA with hindsight. Crowder yes. But most all of them were surprises. My point is we were punching up. That is what it felt like. If you want to compare Crowder and JimmyB with anyone on our roster....I give! No contest. Hindsight is 20-20. But at the time most of the Buzz MU teams surprised with their achievement. It was exciting. Our current team have had inconsistent flashes.

It was no myth, I was one of the fans experiencing it. And to my surprise JimmyB became just about the best player in the NBA. Wow, you knew I that then?

I took a look at TeamRankings' season records against the spread to approximate how our teams compared against game expectations.  For the past two seasons, Wojo has been right at .500, so he's literally the definition of "meets expectations."  (Vegas' expectations, not necessarily the fan base's.)

By comparison, we were 48-37-2 ATS (40-21-1 in BE) in three seasons from 2009-12.  Truth is, I think both you and Pakuni are right -- our guys were punching up and were seriously undervalued by the prognosticators.

[Pakuni]

Pakuni, you’re wrong.
We only know they were NBA with hindsight. Crowder yes. But most all of them were surprises. My point is we were punching up. That is what it felt like. If you want to compare Crowder and JimmyB with anyone on our roster....I give! No contest. Hindsight is 20-20. But at the time most of the Buzz MU teams surprised with their achievement. It was exciting. Our current team have had inconsistent flashes.

It was no myth, I was one of the fans experiencing it. And to my surprise JimmyB became just about the best player in the NBA. Wow, you knew I that then?

It's not hindsight to point out a team had six future NBA players on it. It's the reality. Those teams had lots of talent ... more than a many of the teams you think they were "punching up" to beat.
Case in point ... the Xavier team MU upset in the first round in 2011 had zero players on the roster who've appeared in an NBA game. MU had six, one of whom is a perennial all-star and the other a solid starter. The Syracuse team MU beat in the next round had four future NBA players, only one of whom has played more than 10 games.
How does one compare those rosters and say MU was "punching up?"

If your rationale for believing MU was punching up is not the real-life talent of the players on the roster, but your incorrect assessments of those players before they arrived, fine. I guess I can't argue with your perception. But your perception is not reality.

Edit: None of this is a knock on Buzz. He gets 100 percent credit for finding these guys - some of whom were ridiculously overlooked - and bringing them to MU. But let's not pretend those teams succeeded due to a mix of moxie, sheer determination and magical coaching acumen. They succeeded because they were really good at basketball.

[Nukem2]

It's not hindsight to point out a team had six future NBA players in it. It's the reality. Those teams had lots of talent ... more than a many of the teams you think they were "punching up" to beat.
Case in point ... the Xavier team MU upset in the first round in 2011 had zero players on the roster who've appeared in an NBA game. MU had six, one of whom is a perennial all-star and the other a solid starter. The Syracuse team MU beat in the next round had four future NBA players, only one of whom has played more than 10 games.
How does one compare those rosters and say MU was "punching up?"

If your rationale for believing MU was punching up is not the real-life talent of the players on the roster, but your incorrect assessments of those players before they arrived, fine. I guess I can't argue with your perception. But your perception is not reality.

Yeah, Buzz had some serious and athletic talent on his teams.  Sometimes I think he got in his own way coaching these teams with his personal quirks and tendencies. 

[1SE]

I do find it interesting that some people think the recruiting has been great and the coaching mediocre. While others think the recruit level we're bringing in isn't high enough, which must mean the coaching is very good based on the results.

It's both. I'd say to date he's been a B- team constructor and a C+ coach.

And that's the rub - if we stay there then we're just good enough to not make any changes, but no where near good enough for what most of us want.

[BM1090]

It's both. I'd say to date he's been a B- team constructor and a C+ coach.

And that's the rub - if we stay there then we're just good enough to not make any changes, but no where near good enough for what most of us want.

I agree with most of this. I think people calling Wojo a bad coach are unreasonable. He's clearly not bad. In fact, he's clearly at least solid. But is he good enough? I'm not sure.

[1SE]

I agree with most of this. I think people calling Wojo a bad coach are unreasonable. He's clearly not bad. In fact, he's clearly at least solid. But is he good enough? I'm not sure.

Right, and Wojo would eat up the Horizon League. Ironically, if we were there we'd probably go 25-8 with the automatic qualifier 3 out of every 4 years.

I'm just not sure Wojo has the chops to hang in the BEAST, either in terms of the teams he fields or the chessmasters he coaches against. Maybe he's just about at the inflection point on his learning curve and its all going to come together, but I can't shake the nagging feeling that those kinds of arguments (look at Jay Wright - he needed 5 years!) are just wishful thinking.

But I'm still planning on us cutting down nets this year - either in MSG or San Antonio.

[bilsu]

I don't think the three point shot should be a staple of Cain's game.  But 50 of them over the course of a season isn't really all that many.

Being a three point threat opens up the driving lane for him. Defenders will not be able to play off of him.

[Floorslapper]

I agree with most of this. I think people calling Wojo a bad coach are unreasonable. He's clearly not bad. In fact, he's clearly at least solid. But is he good enough? I'm not sure.

I feel we win on talent FAR more than coaching.  For example - consider the Creighton game at home - we won because Rowsey went out of this world bombing in 3's from 27 feet.  We didn't run good sets, per se.  The degree of difficulty of shots both Andrew and Markus have of hitting is pure talent.  However, there were times where we did run some good action to get Sam a post up, and creating slashing opportunities for Sacar.  Yet, it seems our only way to win was to shoot 45%+ from 3 on 20-25 attempts per game.  That isn't sustainable IMO.

Wojo not recognizing that his team is outsized, outstrengthed, and outathleticed at EVERY position, yet choosing to install M2M as his base defense was a tactical blunder.  Watching teams rack up fouls and running a layup line at FT line trip, and failing to adjust? 

[bilsu]

On the contrary, I want every player on the roster to have scouting report that says "solid three point shooter" among other things, 1 through 5.

Imagine the possibilities.

I was at the Gonzaga/BYU conference championship game/. All of Gonzaga's starters could dribble, pass and shoot. It made me realize that Marquette was really deficient as a team. Gonzaga shot and made a lot of threes and it seemed like everyone was a threat. Gonzaga's short coming would be that they are not as physically strong as Villanova.

[Goose]

Being a good three point shooter is high on my list. My point is simple, just because he made some does not make him a three point shooter. Similar to the big guy that never plays. He should be down low and not chucking threes.

[skianth16]

It's not hindsight to point out a team had six future NBA players on it. It's the reality. Those teams had lots of talent ... more than a many of the teams you think they were "punching up" to beat.
Case in point ... the Xavier team MU upset in the first round in 2011 had zero players on the roster who've appeared in an NBA game. MU had six, one of whom is a perennial all-star and the other a solid starter. The Syracuse team MU beat in the next round had four future NBA players, only one of whom has played more than 10 games.
How does one compare those rosters and say MU was "punching up?"

If your rationale for believing MU was punching up is not the real-life talent of the players on the roster, but your incorrect assessments of those players before they arrived, fine. I guess I can't argue with your perception. But your perception is not reality.

Edit: None of this is a knock on Buzz. He gets 100 percent credit for finding these guys - some of whom were ridiculously overlooked - and bringing them to MU. But let's not pretend those teams succeeded due to a mix of moxie, sheer determination and magical coaching acumen. They succeeded because they were really good at basketball.

You are definitely using hindsight here. At the time, most of the guys that ended up on NBA rosters weren't NBA-caliber talents. In 2011, Jimmy and DJO were the only guys who were probably NBA-ready. Vander was a freshman who really struggled from the floor and only averaged 5 points a game. Buycks was a senior scoring less than 10 points a game with little to no NBA buzz. Jae was good but not outstanding and was play out of position more often than not, which limited his ability to showcase his talent. And Jamil was sitting out so was of no help to the team in winning games. That's the assessment in 2011. You're using assessments from 2018 to call this a super talented team.

These guys needed 2 wins in the BET to get to 20 wins, and they were never ranked during the season. Making the Sweet 16 was definitely beating expectations.

[Marcus92]

Cain's strengths may be driving and defense. But he also needs to shoot and make threes. That's the position today. If he can't hit the outside shot, defenders can simply sag off him and choke up the lane for the entire offense.

MU has had plenty of players who were primarily slashers and not great outside shooters (under 35% for their careers), but still averaged well over one three-point attempt per game:

Jamil Wilson 127 games, 87-259, 33.6%
Vander Blue 106 games, 52-188, 27.7%
Dominic James 129 games, 169-581, 29.1%
Jerel McNeal 130 games, 164-473, 34.7%
Dwyane Wade 65 games, 32-96, 33.3%

[GGGG]

I feel we win on talent FAR more than coaching.  For example - consider the Creighton game at home - we won because Rowsey went out of this world bombing in 3's from 27 feet.  We didn't run good sets, per se.  The degree of difficulty of shots both Andrew and Markus have of hitting is pure talent.  However, there were times where we did run some good action to get Sam a post up, and creating slashing opportunities for Sacar.  Yet, it seems our only way to win was to shoot 45%+ from 3 on 20-25 attempts per game.  That isn't sustainable IMO.

Wojo not recognizing that his team is outsized, outstrengthed, and outathleticed at EVERY position, yet choosing to install M2M as his base defense was a tactical blunder.  Watching teams rack up fouls and running a layup line at FT line trip, and failing to adjust? 

I guess we’re just going to pretend yesterday didn’t happen....

[BM1090]

I feel we win on talent FAR more than coaching.  For example - consider the Creighton game at home - we won because Rowsey went out of this world bombing in 3's from 27 feet.  We didn't run good sets, per se.  The degree of difficulty of shots both Andrew and Markus have of hitting is pure talent.  However, there were times where we did run some good action to get Sam a post up, and creating slashing opportunities for Sacar.  Yet, it seems our only way to win was to shoot 45%+ from 3 on 20-25 attempts per game.  That isn't sustainable IMO.

Wojo not recognizing that his team is outsized, outstrengthed, and outathleticed at EVERY position, yet choosing to install M2M as his base defense was a tactical blunder.  Watching teams rack up fouls and running a layup line at FT line trip, and failing to adjust?

Okay. So you fall into the camp that believes Wojo is a good recruiter and not a good coach. That's fine. But there are a lot of people here who think he's not a good recruiter and the talent level isn't high enough. If that's the case, then his coaching has been good.

In reality it's probably somewhere in the middle.

[GooooMarquette]

Cain's strengths may be driving and defense. But he also needs to shoot and make threes. That's the position today. If he can't hit the outside shot, defenders can simply sag off him and choke up the lane for the entire offense.

MU has had plenty of players who were primarily slashers and not great outside shooters (under 35% for their careers), but still averaged well over one three-point attempt per game:

Jamil Wilson 127 games, 87-259, 33.6%
Vander Blue 106 games, 52-188, 27.7%
Dominic James 129 games, 169-581, 29.1%
Jerel McNeal 130 games, 164-473, 34.7%
Dwyane Wade 65 games, 32-96, 33.3%

Not sure why you think Jamal can't hit the 3.  This season, he hit 46% while taking 1.6 3-point attempts per game...in only 16.8 mpg. 

Only AR, M2N and Sam took more 3s, and only Sam hit a better percentage.

[Marcus92]

Sorry, was simply responding to those who said Cain shouldn't be shooting threes. He far exceeded my expectations this season. If he's hitting 40%+ from long range and has an open look, he should take it.

My point was that even slashers with average/poor outside shooting still have to take 3s just to keep the defense honest.

[GooooMarquette]

Sorry, was simply responding to those who said Cain shouldn't be shooting threes. He far exceeded my expectations this season. If he's hitting 40%+ from long range and has an open look, he should take it.

My point was that even slashers with average/poor outside shooting still have to take 3s just to keep the defense honest.

Gotcha.  +1

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Nvm. Quoted an old post and realized it had already been addressed ad nasuem.

[Goose]

TAMU

I’ll ask the question again, have you ever seen a real three point shooter not be able to hit a free throw? He is not a shooter, period.

[tower912]

Freshman.  I want him to keep shooting  3's, not driving to the basket and getting fouled.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

TAMU

I’ll ask the question again, have you ever seen a real three point shooter not be able to hit a free throw? He is not a shooter, period.

I have, Jamal Cain. I don't know what his hang up with free throws is but he was the second most accurate three point shooter we had this season. He also was a 3 point specialist in high school. If his shooting had hurt us, I would agree with you. If it starts to hurt us, I'll agree with you. It hasn't yet.