Protests

[mu03eng]

Let me piss off a few people here. This video is why cops get called pigs.

Peaceful Americans are being assaulted by these animals all over America tonight.

There is no doubt that these are some of the lowest moments in memory for the police in general and for these individuals caught on camera but are we so superior that we can't have empathy for those put in a terrible situation and then some how expecting perfect results?

I'm not saying these actions don't require consequences, they most certainly do.....but we are all experiencing stress, anxiety, frustration, etc in these times and we, by and large aren't in the thick of it. We aren't African Americans, we aren't cops, we aren't feeling the stresses that they are and I don't think its reasonable to assume there won't be this kind of powder keg when our leaders put people in these situations.

These videos we see of cops doing bad things are bad, they should be punished but to label the group (just like labeling the protests because of the looters) is just assume.

There but for the grace of God go I

[Pakuni]

https://twitter.com/MWatkinsTrib/status/1268727164956020737?s=19

'Merica. Sigh

'Merica.

 A multi-racial family of four from Spokane was accused of being members of Antifa, followed and prevented from leaving their campsite by trees felled to block the road, Clallam County Sheriff’s deputies said.

https://www.peninsuladailynews.com/crime/family-harassed-in-forks-after-being-accused-of-being-members-of-antifa/

[muwarrior69]

There's a ton of local pressure and reform happening. Examples -- In Minneapolis, the U, the public schools, and the park district have all taken major steps cutting ties with MPD. In LA, Garcetti is slashing the police budget and reinvesting that money in underserved communities. I think the last couple days has seen a shift in the narrative from outrage/protests and resources for individuals to engage and learn, to how to do something about it on a policy level. I hope it's sustained and doesn't fade when our attention is inevitably snatched by something else.

The Minneapolis City Council is going to disband the the City Police Department. How will the city survive without law enforcement? Unclear what will replace it.

https://time.com/5848705/disband-and-replace-minneapolis-police/

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Jim Mattis lost my respect with the Theranos scandal. 


https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/8/31/20839873/james-mattis-book-theranos

”One comment I would like to make is on the weight of the kid.  You and others continue to bring this up.  In the BBC this morning, they mentioned Zimmerman is 5'9", he's a little guy.  Martin is 6'3".   Zimmerman may weigh more, but if Martin has 6 inches on him he also has leverage.  It's the first time I have seen any report mentioning the height of those involved.  If you're a little guy at 5'9" and you have a 6'3" guy on top of you slamming your head against the pavement and breaking your nose, then I can see pulling a gun." --Hoopaloop

[GooooMarquette]

Jim Mattis lost my respect with the Theranos scandal. 


https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/8/31/20839873/james-mattis-book-theranos

Just curious: which scandal led you to lose your respect for Trump? I would give you options to choose from, but the list would be much too long for this forum.

As for Theranos, Elizabeth Holmes was a master manipulator, who had everyone from federal regulators to Walgreens executives to reputable scientists conned with her testing scheme. That does not excuse Mattis, but puts him in the more appropriate context of being conned by a person who had nearly everybody conned.

[pbiflyer]

There is no doubt that these are some of the lowest moments in memory for the police in general and for these individuals caught on camera but are we so superior that we can't have empathy for those put in a terrible situation and then some how expecting perfect results?

I'm not saying these actions don't require consequences, they most certainly do.....but we are all experiencing stress, anxiety, frustration, etc in these times and we, by and large aren't in the thick of it. We aren't African Americans, we aren't cops, we aren't feeling the stresses that they are and I don't think its reasonable to assume there won't be this kind of powder keg when our leaders put people in these situations.

These videos we see of cops doing bad things are bad, they should be punished but to label the group (just like labeling the protests because of the looters) is just assume.

There but for the grace of God go I

While I would normally agree with you that the police do a thankless job, there is widespread abuse across multiple agencies during a period of time where they should actually be more sensitive and certainly should be aware of the multitude of eyes and cameras on them.  You have to wonder how bad it is when the cameras are off.
It seems like they are either trying to incite further violence or just truly don't give a crap and do what they want. Either way, not good.

[shoothoops]

As some one else pointed out earlier, the place to start is massive overhaul with police union leaders. I know someone in charge of one in a large U.S. Metro and he is one of the worst people I've personally come across. And it is not uncommon across the country.

[Pakuni]

Just curious: which scandal led you to lose your respect for Trump? I would give you options to choose from, but the list would be much too long for this forum.

As for Theranos, Elizabeth Holmes was a master manipulator, who had everyone from federal regulators to Walgreens executives to reputable scientists conned with her testing scheme. That does not excuse Mattis, but puts him in the more appropriate context of being conned by a person who had nearly everybody conned.

Not the only person to con Mattis, if you know what I mean.
That said, raising Mattis' involvement on the Theranos board to attack the credibility of his recent statements is just a weak ad hominem. Warrior Dad doesn't support Trump, he just attacks the character of those who criticize Trump.

[MU82]

https://twitter.com/MWatkinsTrib/status/1268727164956020737?s=19

'Merica. Sigh

Stop it. Both sides do this all the time. Both sides. Yep.

[drewm88]

The Minneapolis City Council is going to disband the the City Police Department. How will the city survive without law enforcement? Unclear what will replace it.

https://time.com/5848705/disband-and-replace-minneapolis-police/

Some council members have expressed support for this. That's a ways from saying they're going to do it.

Did you read the piece you linked? He lays out ideas on how they could be replaced. Here are two other articles with suggestions for how it could be done:
https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2020/06/police-abolition-george-floyd/

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/police-brutality-cop-free-world-protest-199465/

[Jockey]

There is no doubt that these are some of the lowest moments in memory for the police in general and for these individuals caught on camera but are we so superior that we can't have empathy for those put in a terrible situation and then some how expecting perfect results?

I'm not saying these actions don't require consequences, they most certainly do.....but we are all experiencing stress, anxiety, frustration, etc in these times and we, by and large aren't in the thick of it. We aren't African Americans, we aren't cops, we aren't feeling the stresses that they are and I don't think its reasonable to assume there won't be this kind of powder keg when our leaders put people in these situations.

These videos we see of cops doing bad things are bad, they should be punished but to label the group (just like labeling the protests because of the looters) is just assume.

There but for the grace of God go I

The problem, Eng, is that these are not one-offs. these incidents occur regularly.

Specifically, in the Buffalo police abuse of a 75 year old man, Buffalo PD officially said that the man tripped & fell. If we didn’t have video there would have been no accountability. Maybe 1 "bad apple" pushed him down but what about the 10-15 "good" cops who said nothing. Without the video, this would simply be one more episode of police brutality gotten away with.

There are not a few bad cops out there, but thousands of bad cops who allow this to go on and say nothing while lying in their reports about abuse that they have seen. And they feel justified because the president and attorney General are encouraging them to dominate American citizens.

[Pakuni]

As some one else pointed out earlier, the place to start is massive overhaul with police union leaders. I know someone in charge of one in a large U.S. Metro and he is one of the worst people I've personally come across. And it is not uncommon across the country.

Yup. I think that was me. I used to work with cops often and developed social relationships with many. The great majority are good people just trying to do their best to serve their communities. But there are a fair number of a-holes in the crowd, and almost invariably it's those a-holes who rise to the top of the FOPs. And one reason they rise to the top of the FOPs is because they don't rise to the top of their departments and become management ... largely because the department knows they're lousy cops.

mu03eng made a worthwhile point earlier. All cops feel under attack right now, and even good people who feel under attack can act poorly. I imagine a good cop - and most of them are good - is incredibly frustrated right now. They've dedicated their careers to protecting their communities, at times at risk to themselves, and now they feel that huge numbers of those people are looking at you suspiciously, calling you names, marching against you, etc. It sucks. Hopefully the better of those cops realize it's about them, it's about the system that they're caught up in along with the other side.
This is no way justifies the bad actors out there, or excuses them from consequences. F--- those people with a rusty pole.  But the sooner everyone can step back for a moment and catch our collective breaths, the better we'll be.

[shoothoops]

There are good, bad, indifferent people in every profession, police, firefighters, EMT's, doctors, nurses, social workers, corporate business, military, athletes, teachers, clergy, ...every profession, no exceptions.

This thread with several links contains some of the "bad" with police officers for example:

https://twitter.com/andizeisler/status/1268713465322987521?s=19

[Hards Alumni]

Yup. I think that was me. I used to work with cops often and developed social relationships with many. The great majority are good people just trying to do their best to serve their communities. But there are a fair number of a-holes in the crowd, and almost invariably it's those a-holes who rise to the top of the FOPs. And one reason they rise to the top of the FOPs is because they don't rise to the top of their departments and become management ... largely because the department knows they're lousy cops.

mu03eng made a worthwhile point earlier. All cops feel under attack right now, and even good people who feel under attack can act poorly. I imagine a good cop - and most of them are good - is incredibly frustrated right now. They've dedicated their careers to protecting their communities, at times at risk to themselves, and now they feel that huge numbers of those people are looking at you suspiciously, calling you names, marching against you, etc. It sucks. Hopefully the better of those cops realize it's about them, it's about the system that they're caught up in along with the other side.
This is no way justifies the bad actors out there, or excuses them from consequences. F--- those people with a rusty pole.  But the sooner everyone can step back for a moment and catch our collective breaths, the better we'll be.

Cops protecting other cops no matter what is one of the largest problems in law enforcement.  Encouraging good cops to speak out and remove the bad cops would go a long way towards giving people more faith in police.

[MUBurrow]

There is no doubt that these are some of the lowest moments in memory for the police in general and for these individuals caught on camera but are we so superior that we can't have empathy for those put in a terrible situation and then some how expecting perfect results?
...
These videos we see of cops doing bad things are bad, they should be punished but to label the group (just like labeling the protests because of the looters) is just assume.

The inclination to understand and balance the unforunate tension in the job is the right one. The problem with this line of thinking though, is that it smushes the crime and the cover up into one act, which its not.  By doing that, we ignore the systemic problems by focusing on the individual bad acts.

In all these cases, we have two parts.  One is the crapty cop doing a crapty thing.  The second part is the official report that then gets filed, accepted, and becomes the record, that "the person fell down" to "the person resisted" to "we found drugs on the person so we were in the right."  These often not only often unfairly and inaccurately shift the blame of the incident themselves, but they often create criminality on the part of the citizen which then must be upheld throughout the criminal justice process. 

You're right that cops are put in really difficult positions every day, and we don't do anyone a service by pretending that's not the case.  But the cover up/spin is an inherent part of the system right now, and that's f*cked. And that blanket cover has filtered down to all levels of law enforcement.  The average cop on the street is worse for the culture of knowing that the system exists to protect him, not to get it right - and its really poisoned the well.

[MUfan12]

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/06/04/public-health-protests-301534

We have a protest launching from near our house tomorrow. As much as I'd love to participate, I can't get my head around the potential risk. Planning on bringing water and supplies for them as a way to help.

[Warriors4ever]

In NYC they cops have detained some of the volunteer legal observers, who wear apparel designating them as such, and who are trained to do just that -observe and document.
The blue wall of silence needs to come down, and that can only come from the cops themselves. And that includes not just these types of incidents, but stopping the lying and dishonesty  in court testimony.

[Pakuni]

Cops protecting other cops no matter what is one of the largest problems in law enforcement.  Encouraging good cops to speak out and remove the bad cops would go a long way towards giving people more faith in police.

Absolutely.
The state's attorney in Kane County, Illlinois (who also was the special prosecutor in the Laquan McDonald case and is a Republican) made a good suggestion about this ... make cops the equivalent of mandatory reporters when it comes to intervening and reporting excessive force by colleagues, and impose criminal consequences on those that do not.
This removes, or at least lessens, the fear the cops will face backlash within the ranks if they report a fellow cop because it essentially leaves them no other option - either report or risk a career-ending criminal conviction.

[Hards Alumni]

Absolutely.
The state's attorney in Kane County, Illlinois (who also was the special prosecutor in the Laquan McDonald case and is a Republican) made a good suggestion about this ... make cops the equivalent of mandatory reporters when it comes to intervening and reporting excessive force by colleagues, and impose criminal consequences on those that do not.
This removes, or at least lessens, the fear the cops will face backlash within the ranks if they report a fellow cop because it essentially leaves them no other option - either report or risk a career-ending criminal conviction.

I'm more of a carrot rather than the stick kind of dude since people usually respond better to positive reinforcement.  Perhaps a combo. 

[Warriors4ever]

It’s not just excessive force -it’s the ‘fudging’ of the facts or the outright lying, the whole the ends justify the means mentality. Examples are legion -I saw cases where the cop told the grand Jury the contraband tested positive for cocaine when it didn’t -maybe he thought no one would actually read it? Consequences to the cop -nothing. I had a case where it became clear during a bench trial the cop had testified under oath at the preliminary hearing not to what he saw but to what his partner saw. Again, outside of the judge dismissing the case on due process grounds , no consequences. And there are thousands of examples, all of which poison any hope of good community relations.

[muwarrior69]

Some council members have expressed support for this. That's a ways from saying they're going to do it.

Did you read the piece you linked? He lays out ideas on how they could be replaced. Here are two other articles with suggestions for how it could be done:
https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2020/06/police-abolition-george-floyd/

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/police-brutality-cop-free-world-protest-199465/

Legalized drugs, legal prostitution, abolition of prisons...that is going to make for a better society, not to mention unarmed community patrols; they will keep the peace against well armed gang factions in many of the communities? Will the more affluent communities have to hire their own security forces to keep them safe as there will be no police force? All the "solutions" are seen through the black experience exclusively. Its like all cops are white. I don't see this bringing us all together, it just furthers the racial divide.

[shoothoops]

Protect and serve Commander:

https://billypenn.com/2020/06/05/philly-police-commander-videotaped-beating-protesters-linked-to-narcotics-scandal-misconduct/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

https://www.inquirer.com/news/philadelphia-police-beating-temple-student-evan-gorski-protest-20200604.html?outputType=amp&__twitter_impression=true

[muwarrior69]

It’s not just excessive force -it’s the ‘fudging’ of the facts or the outright lying, the whole the ends justify the means mentality. Examples are legion -I saw cases where the cop told the grand Jury the contraband tested positive for cocaine when it didn’t -maybe he thought no one would actually read it? Consequences to the cop -nothing. I had a case where it became clear during a bench trial the cop had testified under oath at the preliminary hearing not to what he saw but to what his partner saw. Again, outside of the judge dismissing the case on due process grounds , no consequences. And there are thousands of examples, all of which poison any hope of good community relations.

Absolutely, one set of laws for the ruling class and another for the rest of us. Hell the police and the FBI can lie to us, but we can't lie to them. If you don't plea to this will go after your son. A politician obstructs justice or violates laws regarding national security but the DOJ does not prosecute. I am sorry for being so cynical, but our judicial system does not work because it is so politicized. Prosecutors are not interested in the truth, just the conviction or just looking the other way when their political allies are in legal trouble.

[Pakuni]

I'm more of a carrot rather than the stick kind of dude since people usually respond better to positive reinforcement.  Perhaps a combo.

I get it, but I'm not sure how you positively reinforce someone into doing the right thing when that person already has taken an oath to do the right thing and isn't doing the right thing.
Creating a severe consequence in this case not only incentivizes the correct behavior, but gives those officers an "out" against those who would view it as selling out one of their own.

[Warriors4ever]

The current DOJ has been walking back the consent decrees entered into during the previous eight years, and has no interest in investigating police departments for civil rights violations.
And please don’t hold up Michael Flynn as some type of example -the same people giving him a pass because they ‘threatened his son’ have no problem taking down a poor black kid from the south side who says he signed a statement because he was threatened or lied to.