MUScoop
MUScoop => The Superbar => COVID-19 => Topic started by: jesmu84 on April 19, 2020, 01:33:22 AM
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Hmm...
https://www.reddit.com/r/maryland/comments/g3niq3/i_simply_cannot_believe_that_people_are/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
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C'mon, Annapolis is lovely this time of year. And it is good to know these protestors aren't bound by party.
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This is 100% an example of how Trump's mixed messaging and lack of attention to detail is making things worse. On one day, he is issuing guidelines for how to open up the economy. The next day he is encouraging people to break the guidelines he mentioned less than 24 hours earlier.
He is making the problem worse.
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I should have been more specific
https://www.reddit.com/r/maryland/comments/g3niq3/i_simply_cannot_believe_that_people_are/fnstpyl?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
Astroturfing, gun rights organizations and the DeVos family are all directly linked
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I should have been more specific
https://www.reddit.com/r/maryland/comments/g3niq3/i_simply_cannot_believe_that_people_are/fnstpyl?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
Astroturfing, gun rights organizations and the DeVos family are all directly linked
Thanks for the updated link. No surprise that these are being funded and pushed by the "shallow state"
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Let's check in on today's protest in Ohio ...
https://twitter.com/laurahancock/status/1251590879598559237/photo/1
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This is 100% an example of how Trump's mixed messaging and lack of attention to detail is making things worse. On one day, he is issuing guidelines for how to open up the economy. The next day he is encouraging people to break the guidelines he mentioned less than 24 hours earlier.
He is making the problem worse.
Yep. He either needs to take responsibility, make the decisions and live with the consequences; or delegate responsibility to the governors and let them do their thing and live with the results. But it's irresponsible to punt it to the governors, and then turn around and encourage people to protest against their actions.
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Crazies in Idaho
https://crooksandliars.com/2020/04/idaho-lawmaker-stay-home-orders-are-no
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Crazies in Idaho
https://crooksandliars.com/2020/04/idaho-lawmaker-stay-home-orders-are-no
Ideal for chico's new home. I wonder if he and Ammon Bundy have managed to Beer Summit yet?
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Crazies in Idaho
https://crooksandliars.com/2020/04/idaho-lawmaker-stay-home-orders-are-no
The only people who compare the stay at home order to death camps have clearly never even been to the Holocaust Museum, let alone an actual Nazi Concentration camp. Anyone who make remarks like this should be forced to go.
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The only people who compare the stay at home order to death camps have clearly never even been to the Holocaust Museum, let alone an actual Nazi Concentration camp. Anyone who make remarks like this should be forced to go.
Yep, they’re as misguided as anyone who has compared Trump to Hitler or called him a dictator. They too should go to a museum, read a history book or at least talk to someone who has lived under that kind of yoke. Lots of dumb people of every political persuasion.
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Yep, they’re as misguided as anyone who has compared Trump to Hitler or called him a dictator. They too should go to a museum, read a history book or at least talk to someone who has lived under that kind of yoke. Lots of dumb people of every political persuasion.
Glad you brought the "both sides" argument to the table. Your buddy Cheeks is famous for it.
Remember when the right was calling Obama those things? Since we are into logical fallacies and whataboutism now.
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Yep, they’re as misguided as anyone who has compared Trump to Hitler or called him a dictator. They too should go to a museum, read a history book or at least talk to someone who has lived under that kind of yoke. Lots of dumb people of every political persuasion.
The strawman life is glorious and easy.
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"non-essential workers got put on a train"
Is that really what she thinks the Holocaust was about?
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Glad you brought the "both sides" argument to the table. Your buddy Cheeks is famous for it.
Remember when the right was calling Obama those things? Since we are into logical fallacies and whataboutism now.
I actually don’t recall much in the way of Hitler or dictator accusations towards Obama. Socialist, non citizen, racist, etc., was popular right wing crazy talk re Obama during his administration.
My point is, of course, that no matter who is in power people say crazy things about them. Which ones you decide to be outraged by depend on your biases.
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I actually don’t recall much in the way of Hitler or dictator accusations towards Obama. Socialist, non citizen, racist, etc., was popular right wing crazy talk re Obama during his administration.
My point is, of course, that no matter who is in power people say crazy things about them. Which ones you decide to be outraged by depend on your biases.
Not really. I’ve been outraged by plenty of left extreme garbage. Sometimes it’s okay to see someone call out garbage for what it is and not go with, “yeah but your people...”
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Not really. I’ve been outraged by plenty of left extreme garbage. Sometimes it’s okay to see someone call out garbage for what it is and not go with, “yeah but your people...”
EXACTLY.
He could have just said, yeah those people are a-holes. But he didn't. And it would have been so easy. But some people can't help themselves.
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Not really. I’ve been outraged by plenty of left extreme garbage. Sometimes it’s okay to see someone call out garbage for what it is and not go with, “yeah but your people...”
Anyone truly exhibiting “equal opportunity outrage” would find outrage to be an almost permanent state. Very unhealthy and unhappy way to live (IMO) but it’s a free country.
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Anyone truly exhibiting “equal opportunity outrage” would find outrage to be an almost permanent state. Very unhealthy and unhappy way to live (IMO) but it’s a free country.
I don’t really go about my day searching out things to be outraged about. If I come across something I find outrageous I’ll be outraged, whether it’s people on “my side” or not.
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Can we get back to this?
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/383cbb5e1efa66b76f177b64c32d9f2b/tenor.gif?itemid=14477643)
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I don’t really go about my day searching out things to be outraged about. If I come across something I find outrageous I’ll be outraged, whether it’s people on “my side” or not.
So you’re admit your biased but your biases don’t affect your judgements. LOL
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So you’re admit your biased but your biases don’t affect your judgements. LOL
When it comes to calling Trump Hitler? Yeah. My reaction to that truly isn’t “yeah but your people fly Confederate flags!”
Different strokes for different folks Lenny.
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Yep, they’re as misguided as anyone who has compared Trump to Hitler or called him a dictator. They too should go to a museum, read a history book or at least talk to someone who has lived under that kind of yoke. Lots of dumb people of every political persuasion.
There are very fine people on both sides.
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EXACTLY.
He could have just said, yeah those people are a-holes. But he didn't. And it would have been so easy. But some people can't help themselves.
Well, it certainly easy for you to say “Those people are a-holes”. You spent an inordinate amount of time on Scoop saying exactly that (or a slight variation of that) about anyone who doesn’t share your particular prejudices. You are right about one thing, though. Some people can’t help themselves.
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Well, it certainly easy for you to say “Those people are a-holes”. You spent an inordinate amount of time on Scoop saying exactly that (or a slight variation of that) about anyone who doesn’t share your particular prejudices. You are right about one thing, though. Some people can’t help themselves.
Nah that's really not the case. I just don’t take my shots laying down. I have agreed with plenty of people on the "other side" here. I'm not the one saying "both sides" or trying to make false equivalencies here. I have been the one to say that liberals aren't perfect, yet when I ask the same of the "other side" about things that are clearly messed up i get met with the typical whataboutism crap. I admit I'm wrong when I'm wrong, but a lot of you blowhards here can't fathom that sort of thing.
What a joke.
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Thanks for the updated link. No surprise that these are being funded and pushed by the "shallow state"
More:
https://twitter.com/AltCyberCommand/status/1251941209779494913?s=19
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Voters incapable of thinking for themselves still inexplicably incapable of thinking for themselves
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Every footage of protesters just look like they get together and eat meat together. Then brag about it on message boards.
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Every footage of protesters just look like they get together and eat meat together. Then brag about it on message boards.
They take their cue from the top. This is what "outstanding leadership" looks like to them:
Trump brands FBI top brass ‘human scum’, calls CNN reporter ‘brainless’, and says he’s ‘not a fan’ of Mitt Romney
https://news.yahoo.com/trump-brands-fbi-top-brass-104641147.html
This is how far the office has fallen.
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https://twitter.com/BFriedmanDC/status/1252055898819899393?s=20
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Every footage of protesters just look like they get together and eat meat together. Then brag about it on message boards.
I laughed.
Thanks.
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https://twitter.com/BFriedmanDC/status/1252055898819899393?s=20
Honestly, that was a brilliant and simple counter protest.
Did anyone ever think they would see a day, where in the middle of a global pandemic, you would have the president encouraging protests of the other parties states, for trying to save lives?
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https://twitter.com/BFriedmanDC/status/1252055898819899393?s=20
One thing I do not get, is how can rational people on here I truly respect (for their business acumen, education and basketball knowledge) feel good when winning politically means aligning their views with this filth. There's anxiety and frustration towards the shut down but telling healthcare workers from the front line to go to China is, as the second worst presidential candidate in my memory put it, "Deplorable".
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One thing I do not get, is how can rational people on here I truly respect (for their business acumen, education and basketball knowledge) feel good when winning politically means aligning their views with this filth. There's anxiety and frustration towards the shut down but telling healthcare workers from the front line to go to China is, as the second worst presidential candidate in my memory put it, "Deplorable".
Ah, yes. The video:
https://twitter.com/MarcZenn/status/1251975162926227457?s=20
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https://twitter.com/BFriedmanDC/status/1252055898819899393?s=20
I saw that.
That was great.
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Guns and god. It's always the same with these people.
https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/2020/04/19/wisconsin-anti-quarantine-protests-pushed-facebook-activists/5163425002/
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Guns and god. It's always the same with these people.
https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/2020/04/19/wisconsin-anti-quarantine-protests-pushed-facebook-activists/5163425002/
And wrapping themselves in the flag.
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If people want to protest government efforts to save their life and throw hatred at healthcare workers, fine. But they should identify themselves and waive medical care if/when they get infected.
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If people want to protest government efforts to save their life and throw hatred at healthcare workers, fine. But they should identify themselves and waive medical care if/when they get infected.
(https://scontent.fmia1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/93702735_10163304539590463_6227542260955742208_n.jpg?_nc_cat=106&_nc_sid=ca434c&_nc_ohc=3ZrnHhrQzXEAX9kU9tV&_nc_ht=scontent.fmia1-1.fna&oh=53b0f9dafbd90cb7b8b35becb7dfe0fb&oe=5EC48463)
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Love. It.
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https://twitter.com/Bry_Mac/status/1250155077668605954?s=19
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What happened to no politics?
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What happened to no politics?
Its not politics, its current events. ::) ::)
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What happened to no politics?
It is impossible to discuss Covid-19 in the US and leave politics out of it. The US president is running the show on this one, he's running daily press briefings. This is effecting everyone, and we're *trying* to let people have reasonable discussions about this.
Nobody has been banned for politics on this board - but we have deleted a number of posts that are not appropriate. We have also banned a few people for general inappropriate posting and instigating. If you feel false or misleading information has been posted, please do correct it. We want as much factual information here as possible. But also know that you'll get blasted (by either side) if you post propaganda or fake news. Opinions are OK too - but don't vent too much or it might get deleted.
This is a global pandemic, and this is a forum to talk about it. We're not relaxing that rule in other boards (or, not trying to...).
And finally - I've said it a million times before - we don't WANT to moderate anything. We'd prefer you all behave and make our lives easier.
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What happened to no politics?
It’s interesting that there are two posts poking fun at stupid people and you think it’s political.
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I ignore pretty much every opinion that starts with "the media."
But that being said, these protests are not being covered responsibly. They are statistically insignificant. Coverage of these has been intended to fan conflict where it doesn't really exist, and its working. A handful of losers show up to these, they get covered as legitimate movements, liberals get worked up and start value-projecting like damn disco balls, and then more people show up to "own the libs." All of a sudden it looks like a real thing and pols trying to make a name for themselves by owning the libs have the political cover to do what they were always going to do anyway. Makes nihlism look like an attractive option. At least it has the meats.
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It is impossible to discuss Covid-19 in the US and leave politics out of it. The US president is running the show on this one, he's running daily press briefings. This is effecting everyone, and we're *trying* to let people have reasonable discussions about this.
Nobody has been banned for politics on this board - but we have deleted a number of posts that are not appropriate. We have also banned a few people for general inappropriate posting and instigating. If you feel false or misleading information has been posted, please do correct it. We want as much factual information here as possible. But also know that you'll get blasted (by either side) if you post propaganda or fake news. Opinions are OK too - but don't vent too much or it might get deleted.
This is a global pandemic, and this is a forum to talk about it. We're not relaxing that rule in other boards (or, not trying to...).
And finally - I've said it a million times before - we don't WANT to moderate anything. We'd prefer you all behave and make our lives easier.
Rocky,
So, when are you going to hit Hards with the ban hammer? He’s way over the top and a weee bit paranoid too. He has zero tolerance and sees the ghost of Chico’s around every corner.
I get it, he was worried about his parents, and apparently has a business to worry about. He’s having a tough time right now.
There have been others, from both sides, who reconciled some differences on the board today. Hards...he continues.
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Rocky,
So, when are you going to hit Hards with the ban hammer? He’s way over the top and a weee bit paranoid too. He has zero tolerance and sees the ghost of Chico’s around every corner.
I get it, he was worried about his parents, and apparently has a business to worry about. He’s having a tough time right now.
There have been others, from both sides, who reconciled some differences on the board today. Hards...he continues.
If you want someone banned, report it to the mods. Whining to everyone like this is not a good look.
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Really.
King of the whiners.
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Rocky,
So, when are you going to hit Hards with the ban hammer? He’s way over the top and a weee bit paranoid too. He has zero tolerance and sees the ghost of Chico’s around every corner.
I get it, he was worried about his parents, and apparently has a business to worry about. He’s having a tough time right now.
There have been others, from both sides, who reconciled some differences on the board today. Hards...he continues.
This type of response doesn't help at all. If anyone says something offensive, report it. If you think they're spreading misinformation, refute it. But complaining publicly doesn't earn much respect from any of the mods (not just me...). It comes off as whiny.
If hards thinks everyone is Cheeks, that's whiny and annoying too. But it's not exactly ban worthy. I know we've removed a bunch of HA's posts, but I don't recall anything actually ban worthy. Did he have a public spat with Goose? Yes. Does Goose deserve some blame for that too? Yes. Do you want me to ban them both? No - and I wouldn't. Is that why you're suddenly calling out Hards? Because Goose doesn't deserve any critisim? I don't get it.
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Ugh.
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I ignore pretty much every opinion that starts with "the media."
But that being said, these protests are not being covered responsibly. They are statistically insignificant. Coverage of these has been intended to fan conflict where it doesn't really exist, and its working. A handful of losers show up to these, they get covered as legitimate movements, liberals get worked up and start value-projecting like damn disco balls, and then more people show up to "own the libs." All of a sudden it looks like a real thing and pols trying to make a name for themselves by owning the libs have the political cover to do what they were always going to do anyway. Makes nihlism look like an attractive option. At least it has the meats.
I thought it was appropriate, given the Arby's reference.
(https://scontent.fmia1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/93638568_10158699821688623_4883194261534670848_n.jpg?_nc_cat=103&_nc_sid=110474&_nc_ohc=19rFTfotWmIAX9ZU6PD&_nc_ht=scontent.fmia1-1.fna&oh=c2f2148767bff39c247b52c781ccc6a1&oe=5EC354AB)
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Isn’t that true of many protests?
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Congratulations guys, ya got this thread and board exactly where ya want it...one big circle jerk. Enjoy
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Congratulations guys, ya got this thread and board exactly where ya want it...one big circle jerk. Enjoy
Thanks!
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Thanks!
And look who “won”.
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I thought it was appropriate, given the Arby's reference.
(https://scontent.fmia1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/93638568_10158699821688623_4883194261534670848_n.jpg?_nc_cat=103&_nc_sid=110474&_nc_ohc=19rFTfotWmIAX9ZU6PD&_nc_ht=scontent.fmia1-1.fna&oh=c2f2148767bff39c247b52c781ccc6a1&oe=5EC354AB)
No, the protestors don't represent a significant portion of the population. The problem is their abject stupidity will get people sick and potentially kill them. It will potentially adversely impact progress that has been made. We've seen how this virus can and will spread. It's insidious.
There's no excuse for the behavior of these people. If they were just going to thin their own ranks I honestly wouldn't care. But that's not reality.
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Looks like georgia is gonna let er rip on friday. Short little stay at home thing now back to normal. Amazing
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Looks like georgia is gonna let er rip on friday. Short little stay at home thing now back to normal. Amazing
What could go wrong....
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And look who “won”.
What did I win?
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Congratulations guys, ya got this thread and board exactly where ya want it...one big circle jerk. Enjoy
Make a compelling fact based case that the federal response has been timely and adequate. Please. Make a compelling case that having a mob in a time of social distancing is wise health choice. Please.
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Make a compelling fact based case that the federal response has been timely and adequate. Please. Make a compelling case that having a mob in a time of social distancing is wise health choice. Please.
This has been asked of people repeatedly. And then promply ignored.
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Congratulations guys, ya got this thread and board exactly where ya want it...one big circle jerk. Enjoy
This is funny because that's how the old political forum was for you Chico's heisy willie guru rara etc. didn't seem to have a problem with a good old fashion game of soggy biscuit then.
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This is funny because that's how the old political forum was for you Chico's heisy willie guru rara etc. didn't seem to have a problem with a good old fashion game of soggy biscuit then.
I had never heard that phrase before...and now after Googling it I am sorry I did.
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...and now after Googling it...
Oh no!
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Oh no!
LOL
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I had never heard that phrase before...and now after Googling it I am sorry I did.
I'd just go ahead and delete your search history now if I were you
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Rocky,
So, when are you going to hit Hards with the ban hammer? He’s way over the top and a weee bit paranoid too. He has zero tolerance and sees the ghost of Chico’s around every corner.
I get it, he was worried about his parents, and apparently has a business to worry about. He’s having a tough time right now.
There have been others, from both sides, who reconciled some differences on the board today. Hards...he continues.
Sorry little buddy, you all offended? You just showed up a few days late to the pissing match to call for a ban? Grow up, snowflake.
The heat died down, and you came with the gasoline. I think your friend can defend himself and his actions without ganging up on me.
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Also, Cheeks isn't around every corner. He's just one guy with at least WarriorDad as a second account.
I'll drop it since it bothers people.
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Sorry little buddy, you all offended? You just showed up a few days late to the pissing match to call for a ban? Grow up, snowflake.
The heat died down, and you came with the gasoline. I think your friend can defend himself and his actions without ganging up on me.
🙄
Respond with childish insults. Thanks for proving my point. Just settle down.
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🙄
Respond with childish insults. Thanks for proving my point. Just settle down.
Don't worry, your buddy has been protected. Thanks for being the human shield here. lol
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🙄
Respond with childish insults. Thanks for proving my point. Just settle down.
Can I ask why you are only pumping Hards in here and not ZFB? He's been just as unhinged and insulting and Hards. Is it a similar views thing? Do you know one and not the other? I'm just curious why you aren't playing it both ways here.
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Don't worry, your buddy has been protected. Thanks for being the human shield here. lol
Gents - move along. RC & I have taken this offline - no need to keep piling on.
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Can I ask why you are only pumping Hards in here and not ZFB? He's been just as unhinged and insulting and Hards. Is it a similar views thing? Do you know one and not the other? I'm just curious why you aren't playing it both ways here.
I'm not unhinged or insulting, unless attacked first (except for jockitch.) Hards has been hysterical about this from day one. Hards is the one that asks dumb questions, and gets bent out of shape when the answers don't fit his myopic world view. Hards is attacking everyone.
Why are you pumping me and not hards? Is it because you are as myopic as Hards in your world view too? Do you know Hards? I'm just curious why you aren't playing it both ways here.
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This is funny because that's how the old political forum was for you Chico's heisy willie guru rara etc. didn't seem to have a problem with a good old fashion game of soggy biscuit then.
not sure about heisy, guru and willie, but yeah, chicos was the man-miss that sonuva...gun! "soggy biscuit"-never heard that one 'round my parts-made me laugh GE
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I'm not unhinged or insulting, unless attacked first (except for jockitch.) Hards has been hysterical about this from day one. Hards is the one that asks dumb questions, and gets bent out of shape when the answers don't fit his myopic world view. Hards is attacking everyone.
Why are you pumping me and not hards? Is it because you are as myopic as Hards in your world view too? Do you know Hards? I'm just curious why you aren't playing it both ways here.
irony.
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I'm not unhinged or insulting, unless attacked first (except for jockitch.) Hards has been hysterical about this from day one. Hards is the one that asks dumb questions, and gets bent out of shape when the answers don't fit his myopic world view. Hards is attacking everyone.
Why are you pumping me and not hards? Is it because you are as myopic as Hards in your world view too? Do you know Hards? I'm just curious why you aren't playing it both ways here.
I got into it with Hards on the Illinois forum. Got into it with you on one of them as well. Seems I'm trying to play it both ways to me. If you'd like me to tell him to chill out I'm happy to, "hey Hards chill out man we're all stressed"
Some of your recent greatest hits that seem as low as Hards to goose, yet RC83 didn't mention you so I thought it was worth a question. Not to mention in trying to say you aren't unhinged or insulting you actually admitted you are.
I must have been drunk. I think you're a no talent ass-clown.
I know you think you are the smartest person around, but you've proven on multiple levels that your are clueless in just the last 2 hours.
Stop digging. You're making yourself look like a bigger as$hole with every post.
Maybe ask for some advise instead of being a know it all in an empty suit. No wonder your grunts dont want to come back to work for you.
Libs dont do donations to charity. They believe that the government should take care of all social needs.
You must be fun at nowhere.
no better than Hards
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Do you want this thread locked? Because this is how you get threads locked.
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So, help me, if you make me pull over and stop this thread....
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Do you want this thread locked? Because this is how you get threads locked.
Sorry :-X
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Do you want this thread locked? Because this is how you get threads locked.
Yes.
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Sure lock it, but let's not pretend I have been the instigator here. If you go back through my post history, there are very mild insults like, "old man", "snowflake", and "little buddy"
That's about it. Meanwhile, what I'm subjected to is much worse. But its fine, I was told to stop, and I did. And then the gang showed up to defend each other and rag on me.
Their narrative that I'm sort of boogeyman destroying things is something they're just pushing because for the first time in a while, people have challenged their 'world view' and its painful for them.
Lock it if you want, either way, I won't be back to check it.
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Can we just stop the Scoop insults and get back to the morons insulting the healthcare workers trying to save their lives?
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Liberate the STATES! (except Georgia)
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Liberate the STATES! (except Georgia)
Hey! You take that back!
It's not our fault... <snip - not productive>
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It would be funny as hell if protesters, properly masked and practicing social distancing, converged on the capitol to demand the state stay closed for a course more weeks.
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Here's what this thread needs.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/w40yQgSXwjOQo/giphy.gif)
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Every thread needs that.
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Here's what this thread needs.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/w40yQgSXwjOQo/giphy.gif)
That is NOT a spaniel with a short tail tho...
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(https://i.makeagif.com/media/2-24-2016/YJ5SG1.gif)
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That is NOT a spaniel with a short tail tho...
Can't argue with that!
(https://media.tenor.co/images/e8eb4a450495ce4b7cf4a2e88403117a/raw)
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Another small but noisy "ReOpenNC" protest in downtown Charlotte today, but more than 3 out of every 4 North Carolinians polled disagree with the protesters.
https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/politics-government/article242411616.html?
Friday’s protest came the same day that North Carolina’s death total from COVID-19 rose to nearly 400, according to the Department of Health and Human Services. The number of confirmed cases rose to 10,923. Mecklenburg County’s death toll rose to 50, with 1,654 confirmed cases.
A new Meredith College poll released Friday showed 76% of N.C. voters support Cooper’s extension of the stay-at-home order. Nearly 78% support his decision to close public schools.
“Despite the claims of groups like ReOpenNC and President Trump about reopening the economy and getting back to normal, most North Carolinians are paying attention to public health professionals and seeing the impact of coronavirus firsthand,” said poll director David McLennan. “As such, they are very cautious about resuming pre-COVID-19 activities.”
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https://twitter.com/Robt_Gibbs/status/1256570329754894336?s=19 (https://twitter.com/Robt_Gibbs/status/1256570329754894336?s=19)
edit: that was photoshopped and untrue.
https://apnews.com/afs:Content:8845710091 (https://apnews.com/afs:Content:8845710091)
Edit of the edit: Thanks, Top
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At some point y'all are going to have to take that first step and put your toes in the water....and there won't be any guarantees. No one can go on living life in this manner.
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At some point y'all are going to have to take that first step and put your toes in the water....and there won't be any guarantees. No one can go on living life in this manner.
At some point, yes. It’s Polar Bear Plunge time right now, and I have no interest in testing the water temp. I know it’s freezing.
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At some point y'all are going to have to take that first step and put your toes in the water....and there won't be any guarantees. No one can go on living life in this manner.
No one suggests otherwise. Clearly that is going to have to happen. Having mass protests, that are much about other issues than frustrations about staying at home frankly, are not helpful though and could actually delay what they are trying to accomplish.
Using words like "liberate" to describe this situation is pretty assinine. I don't think our forefathers faught so you could get a haircut, or go out to eat at an Applebees, during a pandemic. Honestly I think this is a sad reflection on our society more than anything. We're selfish and lack a sense of share sacrifice.
Of course, this goes back to the mixed messaging from the top. Stronger, consistent and positive messaging would have helped this tremendously.
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Anyone who wants to be liberated can work in a meat packing plant tomorrow.
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At some point y'all are going to have to take that first step and put your toes in the water....and there won't be any guarantees. No one can go on living life in this manner.
Sorry, kin, but some of us have kept doing the same stuff at work that we have been for 30 years. No extra time off. Some of us have gone out of our way to support open local businesses more than ever. Some of us have looked for ways to help our neighbors through errands, yard work, money.
I've been living my life. When the restrictions are lifted, it will be nice to watch my kid play travel baseball, to sit down in a restaurant. But I don't need to re-engage because I haven't disengaged.
Go to work in a meat processing plant. Use your medical knowledge to volunteer to help to COVID tests. Make meals for poor kids and homebound senior citizens.
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Fahrenheit 451, if you think going back to life as it was on March 13, 2020 is happening when we all return to "normalcy," then I won't spoil your belief in Santa Claus and the Easter bunny. There will be a new definition of "normal" and a new American economy going forward. The damages over the past 6 weeks will take years to recover.
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Agreed. So... What do you want your new normal to be? The world has changed. Have you? How are you going to make your best lemonade?
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The answers to your questions are complex. But, the short response is the fabric of my being and soul will not change. Why, because there is no need to change. The good that we all embrace, our beliefs and more importantly, our actions were already, and have been a part of my everyday existence. I, honestly, could not have done what I do on a daily basis for these many years, if I believed and acted in any other way.
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I admire and respect you for being in a good place. My point is, and I think you agree with it in principle and in your description of your personal life, what are (the universal) you, me, we, going to do with it?
Chili, in the golf thread, referenced Andy Dufresne and the feeling if getting out and golfing. My personal favorite Andy Dufresne quote is "you can get busy living, or you can get busy dying.". I think most people are ultimately going to get there in their own way and their own time.
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Anyone who wants to be liberated can work in a meat packing plant tomorrow.
+ all of the pluses. Its a conversation for another day, but I think this is about as clear a test as we'll ever have for the debate we've been faking since I can remember about the role of immigration in the job market. I'd love to see demographic stats on who works at these plants and who is applying for jobs there rn given the dangers.
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I admire and respect you for being in a good place. My point is, and I think you agree with it in principle and in your description of your personal life, what are (the universal) you, me, we, going to do with it?
Chili, in the golf thread, referenced Andy Dufresne and the feeling if getting out and golfing. My personal favorite Andy Dufresne quote is "you can get busy living, or you can get busy dying.". I think most people are ultimately going to get there in their own way and their own time.
Its 70 in wisconsin. Except for businesses being closed the quarantine doesn't exist today. Tons of people are out.
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Its 70 in wisconsin. Except for businesses being closed the quarantine doesn't exist today. Tons of people are out.
This is false. There are more people out than when it was 40 and rain last week, but compared to other "first nice weekend of May's" it's pretty quiet. Quarantine still most definitely exists.
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Its 70 in wisconsin. Except for businesses being closed the quarantine doesn't exist today. Tons of people are out.
I am watching 99% obey the mask regulations as they enter the market/butcher shop/beer wine shop/ nursery next door. They have stayed open throughout, but they are definitely selling a lot of plants today. But again, 99% are wearing masks.
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Good discussion between tower, Doc and others. Thanks, folks.
I've been doing my darnedest to make lemonade out of these lemons we've all been dealt. Nice long walk with my wife and dog every day. Getting some exercise. Doing more freelance writing than I had been doing. Helping local eateries by getting to-go once a week, complete with big tips and purchase of gift cards for future use. Volunteering at a food bank. We've had four "virtual happy hours" with family and friends so far, and tonight another Marquette couple is coming over to have drinks and dinner while we sit around our firepit -- we'll be socially distancing the entire time.
One unexpected bonus: We actually have gotten to see our grand-twins in Chicago more than usual. My son and daughter-in-law have mostly been working from home, and thanks to no commuting they have time to FaceTime us nearly every day now. The boys are now 9 months old and cuter than cute can be.
Mrs. 82 and I know we are very fortunate to have our health and to have this not be a financial hardship for us. I feel for all those who have gotten sick with COVID-19, as well as those who have seen their financial lives upended. I'm rooting for all y'all.
Obviously, we want a more "normal" existence, but I agree with Doc and others that it's hard to even know what that will mean. We gave up a lot of liberties after 9/11, and this is even more restrictive.
Of course things are going to have to re-open, and they are slowly. I do wish we had a national plan -- one with local guidelines -- rather than the scattershot thing we've got going now. I mean, the virus doesn't know there's a border between Georgia and North Carolina.
I'm as big a believer in freedom of speech as anybody. I simply don't believe these protests are useful. Most of them are being put together by large political groups, and they have led to a lot of mixed messages from leadership. Plus, at least 3 out of 4 Americans polled think the protesters are simply wrong.
Hey, I don't pretend to have all the answers. Mrs. 82 and I just do the best with what we can control. I hope all my fellow Scoopers stay safe and don't go too wild once most restrictions are lifted.
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I am watching 99% obey the mask regulations as they enter the market/butcher shop/beer wine shop/ nursery next door. They have stayed open throughout, but they are definitely selling a lot of plants today. But again, 99% are wearing masks.
just got back from pic n sav mukwonago, all the workers have masks. customers-a rough estimate, maybe 30% but not even 50%. never heard a sneeze or a cough. everyone very respectful of each others space, but one thing for sure-it has distanced people from each other. and i don't mean just physically. a distinct, subtle feeling of "unfriendliness" that is probably more of a defensive uncertainty created fear.
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Good discussion between tower, Doc and others. Thanks, folks.
I've been doing my darnedest to make lemonade out of these lemons we've all been dealt. Nice long walk with my wife and dog every day. Getting some exercise. Doing more freelance writing than I had been doing. Helping local eateries by getting to-go once a week, complete with big tips and purchase of gift cards for future use. Volunteering at a food bank. We've had four "virtual happy hours" with family and friends so far, and tonight another Marquette couple is coming over to have drinks and dinner while we sit around our firepit -- we'll be socially distancing the entire time.
One unexpected bonus: We actually have gotten to see our grand-twins in Chicago more than usual. My son and daughter-in-law have mostly been working from home, and thanks to no commuting they have time to FaceTime us nearly every day now. The boys are now 9 months old and cuter than cute can be.
Mrs. 82 and I know we are very fortunate to have our health and to have this not be a financial hardship for us. I feel for all those who have gotten sick with COVID-19, as well as those who have seen their financial lives upended. I'm rooting for all y'all.
Obviously, we want a more "normal" existence, but I agree with Doc and others that it's hard to even know what that will mean. We gave up a lot of liberties after 9/11, and this is even more restrictive.
Of course things are going to have to re-open, and they are slowly. I do wish we had a national plan -- one with local guidelines -- rather than the scattershot thing we've got going now. I mean, the virus doesn't know there's a border between Georgia and North Carolina.
I'm as big a believer in freedom of speech as anybody. I simply don't believe these protests are useful. Most of them are being put together by large political groups, and they have led to a lot of mixed messages from leadership. Plus, at least 3 out of 4 Americans polled think the protesters are simply wrong.
Hey, I don't pretend to have all the answers. Mrs. 82 and I just do the best with what we can control. I hope all my fellow Scoopers stay safe and don't go too wild once most restrictions are lifted.
Excellent Post, 82.
I especially want to highlight the underlined because that is an enormous problem. It would be troubling enough if the federal government was just sitting back and doing nothing... but it’s even worse when POTUS gives directly contradictory messages, like advocating the three-phase plan one day, then encouraging states to ignore it the next. We need a rational national plan and a consistent message about it. The virus does not care about state boundaries, and it does not care that we keep stopping and starting various approaches. It will keep spreading until we cut off its access to new hosts.
Stay safe everybody!
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Related...
I wonder if those who are protesting against stay at home and mask requirements as an assault on their constitutional rights are also mad about this:
https://9to5mac.com/2020/05/14/access-your-browsing-history/
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Related...
I wonder if those who are protesting against stay at home and mask requirements as an assault on their constitutional rights are also mad about this:
https://9to5mac.com/2020/05/14/access-your-browsing-history/
As terrible as the FBI and CIA have been over the years in this country, this is a terrible infringement on American rights.
From Operation Mockingbird, to Iran Contra, to Iraq War, drug trafficking, Operation Cyclone, to the last few years with shootings and what appears to be s political FISA abuse scandal. They do some good work, but when they screw up the go big. No on needs to see browsing history and for people that have a common computer how will they even know who did the browsing?
Truman wanted the CIA shut down. They have grown uncontrollable with power and abused it for years.
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As terrible as the FBI and CIA have been over the years in this country, this is a terrible infringement on American rights.
From Operation Mockingbird, to Iran Contra, to Iraq War, drug trafficking, Operation Cyclone, to the last few years with shootings and what appears to be s political FISA abuse scandal. They do some good work, but when they screw up the go big. No on needs to see browsing history and for people that have a common computer how will they even know who did the browsing?
Truman wanted the CIA shut down. They have grown uncontrollable with power and abused it for years.
No wonder your hero, the impeached President Quid Pro Quo, sided with Putin over his intelligence people.
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No wonder your hero, the impeached President Quid Pro Quo, sided with Putin over his intelligence people.
My hero is not whom you suggest it is. Do you believe law enforcement cannot be corrupted, despite text messages, lost 302 documents, emails to self days before leaving, despite countless under oath testimony that says one thing and public testimony not under oath says something different?
Do you remember those days when journalists would push hard to find corrupt politicians and law enforcement? I do. Those days are gone, but because we have such tribal boundaries now with very little room for people in the middle, we cannot investigate those if the means to an end support our biases and positions. We cannot write or publish stories that hurt our candidates. And we certainly cannot believe women that accuse our side of wrongdoing, but if women accuse others of wrongdoing we must believe at all costs.
You enjoy living in that world. I choose not to.
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My hero is not whom you suggest it is. Do you believe law enforcement cannot be corrupted, despite text messages, lost 302 documents, emails to self days before leaving, despite countless under oath testimony that says one thing and public testimony not under oath says something different?
Do you remember those days when journalists would push hard to find corrupt politicians and law enforcement? I do. Those days are gone, but because we have such tribal boundaries now with very little room for people in the middle, we cannot investigate those if the means to an end support our biases and positions. We cannot write or publish stories that hurt our candidates. And we certainly cannot believe women that accuse our side of wrongdoing, but if women accuse others of wrongdoing we must believe at all costs.
You enjoy living in that world. I choose not to.
Sorry, hoopy, my wife says I've got to stop playing with trolls.
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Nads, pretty sure she said "dolls," hey?
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Nads, pretty sure she said "dolls," hey?
Nah ... da boata us likes dem der dolls, oona?
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My hero is not whom you suggest it is. Do you believe law enforcement cannot be corrupted, despite text messages, lost 302 documents, emails to self days before leaving, despite countless under oath testimony that says one thing and public testimony not under oath says something different?
Do you remember those days when journalists would push hard to find corrupt politicians and law enforcement? I do. Those days are gone, but because we have such tribal boundaries now with very little room for people in the middle, we cannot investigate those if the means to an end support our biases and positions. We cannot write or publish stories that hurt our candidates. And we certainly cannot believe women that accuse our side of wrongdoing, but if women accuse others of wrongdoing we must believe at all costs.
You enjoy living in that world. I choose not to.
Holy carpet-bomb on every board.
Someone else used to go back and respond to several day old posts just to get the last word as well.
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Can we all agree that people like these are total d-bags whose d-baggery is counterproductive?
https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article242971806.html?
With the ReOpenNC group planning protests in five North Carolina cities on Memorial Day, the husband of one of the group’s founders published a Facebook video that says violence shouldn’t be ruled out.
“Are we willing to kill people? Are we willing to lay our lives down? We have to say yes,” Adam Smith said in a Facebook Live video posted on Friday.
Later in the 17-minute video, he said, “If you bring force, we’re gonna bring force. If you bring guns, we’re gonna bring guns. If you’re armed with this, we’re gonna be armed with this.”
Two notable things not in the article:
++ The group's other co-founder, a Republican who believes NC should be re-opened, quit the group last month because she felt her co-founder was fomenting violence.
++ Polls show the vast majority of North Carolinians disagree with both the focus and tone of the ReOpenNC movement. Only white male Republicans agree with them; all other demographic groups strongly disagree.
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Can we all agree that people like these are total d-bags whose d-baggery is counterproductive?
https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article242971806.html?
With the ReOpenNC group planning protests in five North Carolina cities on Memorial Day, the husband of one of the group’s founders published a Facebook video that says violence shouldn’t be ruled out.
“Are we willing to kill people? Are we willing to lay our lives down? We have to say yes,” Adam Smith said in a Facebook Live video posted on Friday.
What would they call this if a Muslim were making such statements in advance of a protest regarding US policy in the Middle East?
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What would they call this if a Muslim were making such statements in advance of a protest regarding US policy in the Middle East?
Terrorism.
And this arguably is just that.
Hell, what would they call this if it were a group of black Americans?
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Terrorism.
And this arguably is just that.
Hell, what would they call this if it were a group of black Americans?
What did they call it right before the civil war?
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Protesters in Kentucky hanging the governor in effigy.
Man, these people must really need paint and seeds.
@ladd_sarah: The video: https://twitter.com/ladd_sarah/status/1264745614748930051/video/1
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Can we all agree that people like these are total d-bags whose d-baggery is counterproductive?
https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article242971806.html?
With the ReOpenNC group planning protests in five North Carolina cities on Memorial Day, the husband of one of the group’s founders published a Facebook video that says violence shouldn’t be ruled out.
“Are we willing to kill people? Are we willing to lay our lives down? We have to say yes,” Adam Smith said in a Facebook Live video posted on Friday.
Later in the 17-minute video, he said, “If you bring force, we’re gonna bring force. If you bring guns, we’re gonna bring guns. If you’re armed with this, we’re gonna be armed with this.”
Two notable things not in the article:
++ The group's other co-founder, a Republican who believes NC should be re-opened, quit the group last month because she felt her co-founder was fomenting violence.
++ Polls show the vast majority of North Carolinians disagree with both the focus and tone of the ReOpenNC movement. Only white male Republicans agree with them; all other demographic groups strongly disagree.
The threats of violence are sickening. Express an opinion, carry a sign, but wtf is wrong with these people?
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No wonder your hero, the impeached President Quid Pro Quo, sided with Putin over his intelligence people.
Are you even aware that our presumptive candidate is also accused of a Quid Pro Quo? Is it a conspiracy theory with Ukraine, prosecutor, his son Hunter. A phone call released last week suggests this isn't going away anytime soon. Both sides playing their games.
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Are you even aware that our presumptive candidate is also accused of a Quid Pro Quo? Is it a conspiracy theory with Ukraine, prosecutor, his son Hunter. A phone call released last week suggests this isn't going away anytime soon. Both sides playing their games.
Congrats, hoopy 2, you are Scoop's reigning champion of false equivalence. As well as pretending to be somebody you're not.
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Extra credit assignment:
Compare and contrast the police reaction to the re-open protestors vs the George Floyd protestors.
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https://m.dailykos.com/stories/2020/5/26/1947872/-KY-Governor-Beshear-D-amn-Right-Responds-to-Being-Burned-in-Effigy-You-WANT-to-Hear-This
Governor Beshear’s response to the protester who hung him in effigy.
The protester was identified and fired, also.
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Congrats, hoopy 2, you are Scoop's reigning champion of false equivalence. As well as pretending to be somebody you're not.
A quid pro quo is a quid pro quo. Whether to help your son or to help your political career. Serious partisan goggles not to understand or recognize that.
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A quid pro quo is a quid pro quo. Whether to help your son or to help your political career. Serious partisan goggles not to understand or recognize that.
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
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I find myself where I usually do when protests ramp up. I appreciate and agree with the principle and the outrage. I don't agree with the method of rioting, burning, and looting. Undercuts whatever argument you are trying to make.
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Extra credit assignment:
Compare and contrast the police reaction to the re-open protestors vs the George Floyd protestors.
this aged well...
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https://m.dailykos.com/stories/2020/5/26/1947872/-KY-Governor-Beshear-D-amn-Right-Responds-to-Being-Burned-in-Effigy-You-WANT-to-Hear-This
Governor Beshear’s response to the protester who hung him in effigy.
The protester was identified and fired, also.
I wish our president ever was that eloquent and spot-on during these last 40 months.
Even one time in 40 months would have been nice.
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Big shock .... conservative special interest groups are pulling the strings on the "Reopen" protests.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3hFfbIXpg4&feature=youtu.be
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I find myself where I usually do when protests ramp up. I appreciate and agree with the principle and the outrage. I don't agree with the method of rioting, burning, and looting. Undercuts whatever argument you are trying to make.
I agree. The riots are now about the rioters.
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I find myself where I usually do when protests ramp up. I appreciate and agree with the principle and the outrage. I don't agree with the method of rioting, burning, and looting. Undercuts whatever argument you are trying to make.
I struggle with how much the bolded is true, and how much we just want it to be true. Yes, attention quickly turns to the "method of rioting, burning, and looting" - but how much of that is in good faith vs how much of that was always going to happen anyway? Whether peaceful or not, these protests are demanding systemic changes that the white community does not want to provide, and its a conversation we've been having (or not having) for decades. Why would we think that the result would be any better if the method were less destructive? This country got its panties all the way up its ass at pro athletes kneeling during the national anthem. In 2018, we couldn't believe Chicago demonstrations had the gall to shut down traffic. I'm suspicious that popular attention wouldn't have turned to the "method" of protest by now, regardless of what that method was. Or in the alternative, to not get that negative attention, that the method wouldn't have to be ignorable altogether.
Take MLK for example. I wonder how he would be viewed (both in his day and today) without his civil rights contemporaries who were less tethered to principles of nonviolence. How much success do he and his nonviolent civil rights leaders owe to the threat of more violent alternatives of the time? Would we pay more attention to MLK's more radically leftist speeches if other civil rights advocates of his day hadn't been even less palatable to the white community? I think there are real overton window consequences to this stuff, and I have no idea how to contextualize it.
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I struggle with how much the bolded is true, and how much we just want it to be true. Yes, attention quickly turns to the "method of rioting, burning, and looting" - but how much of that is in good faith vs how much of that was always going to happen anyway? Whether peaceful or not, these protests are demanding systemic changes that the white community does not want to provide, and its a conversation we've been having (or not having) for decades. Why would we think that the result would be any better if the method were less destructive? This country got its panties all the way up its ass at pro athletes kneeling during the national anthem. In 2018, we couldn't believe Chicago demonstrations had the gall to shut down traffic. I'm suspicious that popular attention wouldn't have turned to the "method" of protest by now, regardless of what that method was. Or in the alternative, to not get that negative attention, that the method wouldn't have to be ignorable altogether.
Take MLK for example. I wonder how he would be viewed (both in his day and today) without his civil rights contemporaries who were less tethered to principles of nonviolence. How much success do he and his nonviolent civil rights leaders owe to the threat of more violent alternatives of the time? Would we pay more attention to MLK's more radically leftist speeches if other civil rights advocates of his day hadn't been even less palatable to the white community? I think there are real overton window consequences to this stuff, and I have no idea how to contextualize it.
Exactly. Something cannot be "self-defeating" when there is no path to a victory.
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Lots a claims of tyranny and restricting freedom and violating constitutional rights a few weeks ago. But now it's fine to impose a curfew and use the police/national guard to keep people in their homes.
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Lots a claims of tyranny and restricting freedom and violating constitutional rights a few weeks ago. But now it's fine to impose a curfew and use the police/national guard to keep people in their homes.
You cannot see the difference when property is being torched, people killed or beaten severely?
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You cannot see the difference when property is being torched, people killed or beaten severely?
HahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahaahhahhhahagahhagahahahahahagagagagagaghahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahA
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https://www.facebook.com/shaunking/videos/178077796929868/https://www.facebook.com/shaunking/videos/178077796929868/
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Curfew starts now. Already scattered reports of immature behavior. Gonna be another long night at the fire station.
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https://www.facebook.com/shaunking/videos/178077796929868/https://www.facebook.com/shaunking/videos/178077796929868/
Where's that?
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Where's that?
I believe Minneapolis.
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Some spill over here? This is for the Covid protests... that are over.
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Surprised the smart people on the board aren't wailing, nashing their teeth, and rending their garments over the protesters gathering in large groups and many not wearing masks.
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There has been an arrest in the torching of Nashville's historic courthouse.
https://www.wkrn.com/news/crime-tracker/suspected-metro-courthouse-arsonist-arrested/?fbclid=IwAR0cTcWxWEFfj1LvIS_MAqyC-1BVVkExfGOqT6T3InGkggKnYzpKxHBl24U
(https://www.wkrn.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/73/2020/05/wesley-somers.jpg?w=640&h=360&crop=1)
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Surprised the smart people on the board aren't wailing, nashing their teeth, and rending their garments over the protesters gathering in large groups and many not wearing masks.
Not surprised the smart people of this board are politicizing the death of an unarmed, complying black man at the hands of the police and the response of people around the country.
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Surprised the smart people on the board aren't wailing, nashing their teeth, and rending their garments over the protesters gathering in large groups and many not wearing masks.
I actually said to my wife, "In addition to the zillion other problems here, this is going to make the COVID-19 situation worse. A bunch of people without PPE screaming into each other's faces from close range. Talk about a 'super-spreader event.'"
If that makes you feel better, Zigs.
Otherwise, sorry to disappoint, but I've never been much of a garment-renderer. And you spelled gnashing wrong.
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There has been an arrest in the torching of Nashville's historic courthouse.
https://www.wkrn.com/news/crime-tracker/suspected-metro-courthouse-arsonist-arrested/?fbclid=IwAR0cTcWxWEFfj1LvIS_MAqyC-1BVVkExfGOqT6T3InGkggKnYzpKxHBl24U
Yay! That arson made me very sad. Had worked in a nearby building several times.
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Good reminder that there are lots of cops who get it.
@RexChapman: Genesee County Sheriff (Flint, Michigan) Chris Swanson put down his helmet and baton and asked protesters how he could help.
The protesters chanted "walk with us" so the Sheriff joined — and walked alongside the protesters in solidarity.
Leadership.🌎❤️ https://twitter.com/TheoShantonas/status/1267096096825905152/video/1
@bribrielle_: Art Acevedo, Houston Chief of Police “DONT FOLLOW THAT BULLcrap” https://twitter.com/bribrielle_/status/1267195158149369856/video/1
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Yay! That arson made me very sad. Had worked in a nearby building several times.
THUG!
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https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-protests-man-pushed-ground-salt-lake-city-utah-george-floyd-a9541126.html
This is what the rest of the world gets to see about how the US police handle protesters.
Police shoving an old man with a cane down to the ground.
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Good reminder that there are lots of cops who get it.
@RexChapman: Genesee County Sheriff (Flint, Michigan) Chris Swanson put down his helmet and baton and asked protesters how he could help.
The protesters chanted "walk with us" so the Sheriff joined — and walked alongside the protesters in solidarity.
Leadership.🌎❤️ https://twitter.com/TheoShantonas/status/1267096096825905152/video/1
@bribrielle_: Art Acevedo, Houston Chief of Police “DONT FOLLOW THAT BULLcrap” https://twitter.com/bribrielle_/status/1267195158149369856/video/1
The New Haven Police marched with the protestors on Saturday.
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There has been an arrest in the torching of Nashville's historic courthouse.
https://www.wkrn.com/news/crime-tracker/suspected-metro-courthouse-arsonist-arrested/?fbclid=IwAR0cTcWxWEFfj1LvIS_MAqyC-1BVVkExfGOqT6T3InGkggKnYzpKxHBl24U
(https://www.wkrn.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/73/2020/05/wesley-somers.jpg?w=640&h=360&crop=1)
And with a Deadpool t-shirt.
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My cousins in London told me there was a massive protest outside the US embassy.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.standard.co.uk/news/london/george-floyd-black-lives-matter-protest-london-us-embassy-a4455661.html%3famp
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My cousins in London told me there was a massive protest outside the US embassy.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.standard.co.uk/news/london/george-floyd-black-lives-matter-protest-london-us-embassy-a4455661.html%3famp
I was watching Euronews last night (it's one of the news stations on my cable) and they showed this protest and spoke with some of the protesters. There was a protest in Germany also.
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My cousins in London told me there was a massive protest outside the US embassy.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.standard.co.uk/news/london/george-floyd-black-lives-matter-protest-london-us-embassy-a4455661.html%3famp
We've got a lot of progress to make, there is no doubt but getting a lecture out of Europe is borderline hysterical. I've lived in a lot of parts of this country, I attended schools in some very poor neighborhoods and I've never experienced in the US the casual racism that I did in Europe, especially England.
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I actually said to my wife, "In addition to the zillion other problems here, this is going to make the COVID-19 situation worse. A bunch of people without PPE screaming into each other's faces from close range. Talk about a 'super-spreader event.'"
I think we will undoubtedly see an uptick in cases. I hope we don't or that its minimal. It would be a good sign for all sorts of reasons.
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I think we will undoubtedly see an uptick in cases. I hope we don't or that its minimal. It would be a good sign for all sorts of reasons.
Agreed, it will be really interesting to see what the Covid situation looks like 4 weeks out and 8 weeks out from this point. 4 weeks would be the direct infection from the protests(incubation, symptoms, worsening symptoms, hospitalization, and then deaths) and 8 weeks would be the secondary infection ring(those who didn't protest but spend time/live with those who did) with the same cycle. The science and narrative will be interesting in July.
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https://m.dailykos.com/stories/2020/5/26/1947872/-KY-Governor-Beshear-D-amn-Right-Responds-to-Being-Burned-in-Effigy-You-WANT-to-Hear-This
Governor Beshear’s response to the protester who hung him in effigy.
The protester was identified and fired, also.
"You cannot fan the flames and then condemn the fire."
A quote that applies to the appalling action action in KY...and to the protests against the pervasive racism and police brutality that ultimately led to the murder of George Floyd.
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Some messed up stuff by police right now
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theverge.com/platform/amp/2020/5/31/21276044/police-violence-protest-george-floyd
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https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-protests-man-pushed-ground-salt-lake-city-utah-george-floyd-a9541126.html
This is what the rest of the world gets to see about how the US police handle protesters.
Police shoving an old man with a cane down to the ground.
They also get to see a woman beaten and attacked by protesters. She was guarding her business while her husband pleaded for them to stop.
https://twitter.com/ekiledjian/status/1267442429566869506?s=20
Rest of the world seeing some great things right now, including most police that get it and are doing their jobs right now. The attacks on the Chicago and NY PD by peaceful protesters was a site to see.
Suddenly coronavirus isn't a thing and knocked off the news.
The good news is that our Federal leader as well as Governors and Mayors aren't fanning the flames and blaming people because of skin color, ideologies or where they come from.
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They also get to see a woman beaten and attacked by protesters. She was guarding her business while her husband pleaded for them to stop.
https://twitter.com/ekiledjian/status/1267442429566869506?s=20
Rest of the world seeing some great things right now, including most police that get it and are doing their jobs right now. The attacks on the Chicago and NY PD by peaceful protesters was a site to see.
Suddenly coronavirus isn't a thing and knocked off the news.
The good news is that our Federal leader as well as Governors and Mayors aren't fanning the flames and blaming people because of skin color, ideologies or where they come from.
The coronavirus isn't a thing? It's knocked off the news? The US is showing great things to the rest of the world?
What world are you living in?
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Thousands of hours of video of police doing their jobs, stepping in to the breach, trying to maintain peace.
And yes, dozens of videos of police acting terribly this weekend. So massively disappointing to see these examples of just plain stupidity on the part of police. Pushing an elderly guy with a cane? Shooting people on their front porch? Drive by pepper spray of an apparently peaceful crowd?
Terrible, and so counter-productive.
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Thousands of hours of video of police doing their jobs, stepping in to the breach, trying to maintain peace.
And yes, dozens of videos of police acting terribly this weekend. So massively disappointing to see these examples of just plain stupidity on the part of police. Pushing an elderly guy with a can? Shooting people on their front porch? Drive by pepper spray of an apparently peaceful crowd?
Terrible, and so counter-productive.
This is what bothers me. There are massive protests involving millions of people around the US right now. There are a handful of outliers that turn it violent. The media focuses on that element.
At the same time, there are thousands of police, doing the right thing during these protests, and there are outliers (saw a sad 20 minute video of police brutality during these protests) violently attacking peaceful protesters. Certain aspects of the media focus on the police doing the right thing.
The reality is there is about 1% of the population that are simply crappy people.
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Minneapolis Police uses next restraints "at least 237 times" since 2015 according to records.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1220416?__twitter_impression=true
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There's a big difference between rioters, looters, antifa, white supremacists and any other manner of hell-raisers raising hell right now (even if it seems there are a lot of them), and the police instigating, provoking and escalating (even if it's not many doing that).
Unlike rioters, police are duty-bound to protect and serve. They are trained (theoretically) to de-escalate and bring peace. They are hired specifically to be public servants we Americans can trust. Thankfully, the vast majority of them take that duty seriously and perform it well.
To see some of these authority figures violate our trust, it's like the disappointment when a trusted employee embezzles funds, when a trusted member of the clergy molests kids, when a trusted coach covers up sexual assaults, when a trusted contractor takes short cuts to line his own pockets - and sure, I'll cite my former profession, when a trusted reporter fabricates a story.
I can't imagine the pain a black person goes through when he or she has to deal with this stuff; I can try to put myself in his or her shoes, but I'm pretty certain I will never be assaulted during a traffic stop simply because of the color of my skin. But I definitely can understand and empathize with the feeling of a violation of trust.
We are supposed to be able to trust police officers. So when some of them are the opposite of trustworthy, it's beyond bad. And quite often, it's deadly, not just for the victim but for the rioting it provokes.
Attempts to equivocate the misdeeds of police officers who are sworn to protect and serve, to the actions of rioters ... that's just not helpful. Those who are doing it, please stop.
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Oh boy ...
President Donald Trump told the nation's governors this morning that they should clamp down on demonstrations that rocked the nation this weekend following the killing of Minnesota man while he was being detained by police.
"They're terrorists. They're Antifa and the radical left," Trump said of the unrest that has spawned mass protests in major cities, as well as building burnings and looting.
"You have to arrest those people and you have to try them," Trump said, based on a recording of the governors' call obtained by Newsweek. "If you don't dominate your city and your state, they are going to walk away with you."
"You have to have total domination," he added.
https://www.newsweek.com/trump-tells-governors-dominate-protestors-after-george-floyds-death-says-theyre-1507877
No word on if he talked about how superbly his threats to shoot Americans worked to de-escalate the situation.
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There's a big difference between rioters, looters, antifa, white supremacists and any other manner of hell-raisers raising hell right now (even if it seems there are a lot of them), and the police instigating, provoking and escalating (even if it's not many doing that).
Unlike rioters, police are duty-bound to protect and serve. They are trained (theoretically) to de-escalate and bring peace. They are hired specifically to be public servants we Americans can trust. Thankfully, the vast majority of them take that duty seriously and perform it well.
To see some of these authority figures violate our trust, it's like the disappointment when a trusted employee embezzles funds, when a trusted member of the clergy molests kids, when a trusted coach covers up sexual assaults, when a trusted contractor takes short cuts to line his own pockets - and sure, I'll cite my former profession, when a trusted reporter fabricates a story.
I can't imagine the pain a black person goes through when he or she has to deal with this stuff; I can try to put myself in his or her shoes, but I'm pretty certain I will never be assaulted during a traffic stop simply because of the color of my skin. But I definitely can understand and empathize with the feeling of a violation of trust.
We are supposed to be able to trust police officers. So when some of them are the opposite of trustworthy, it's beyond bad. And quite often, it's deadly, not just for the victim but for the rioting it provokes.
Attempts to equivocate the misdeeds of police officers who are sworn to protect and serve, to the actions of rioters ... that's just not helpful. Those who are doing it, please stop.
I hope you do not think that is what I was implying with my post.
My post was in regards to some segments of our media focusing on "rioting, looting" and ignoring that 99% of the protests are peaceful. While at the same time, completely ignoring the escalation and brutality of some members of those sworn to protect and serve.
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To be fair, I don't think Trump did much to escalate the situation and I don't think there was much he could have done to de-escalate it either. I think most of the people causing the problems were going to cause it regardless. Be they anarchists, crap-baggers who want to create mayhem for mayhem's sake, police out on a power trip, or even people who legitimately went out to protest and got caught up in it, none of them were going to listen to Trump either way.
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Forgetful is correct, we lose sight of the good because it by and large the good "doesn't sell". Note, I'm making an approximation here: 80% of the protest interactions are normal, 15% are extraordinary(cops and protesters comforting/supporting each other), and 5% is terrible(rioting, cops lack of restraint, physical attacks, etc). You have breathless reporting at the national level of all the horrible going on that is disproportionate to reality which gets further compounded by social media where depending who you follow and their personal narrative influences what you see in your timelines so to speak.
Collectively we need to step back from our individual tribes and narratives and think of the other tribes and how we bridge the gaps between them constructively....
And we're going to have to do it because the president has abdicated his role in that process. We assess what we have and where we need to go and then go.
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I hope you do not think that is what I was implying with my post.
My post was in regards to some segments of our media focusing on "rioting, looting" and ignoring that 99% of the protests are peaceful. While at the same time, completely ignoring the escalation and brutality of some members of those sworn to protect and serve.
I understand, sir. Not sure how much I want to blame the media for showing news, but I get what you're saying.
To be fair, I don't think Trump did much to escalate the situation and I don't think there was much he could have done to de-escalate it either.
You might be right, though it still might have been nice to see the president of the United States at least try to act like a leader for all Americans instead of a third-world strongman.
We hear speeches from past presidents from both parties in times like these, or we hear the mayor of Atlanta a couple days ago and a few other current politicians, or we hear civic leaders and athletes and religious leaders and entertainers ... and it just drives home the point of the terrible void in national leadership we have today.
A President Kasich or President Rubio or President (insert most other names) would have at least tried.
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In before another Nads thread lock.
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Collectively we need to step back from our individual tribes and narratives and think of the other tribes and how we bridge the gaps between them constructively....
And we're going to have to do it because the president has abdicated his role in that process. We assess what we have and where we need to go and then go.
I think your advice is good and everybody needs to take a step back and say what do we need to do to if we want to continue to have a country...because this isn’t it.
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Extra credit assignment:
Compare and contrast the police reaction to the re-open protestors vs the George Floyd protestors.
There were no anarchists imbedded with the re-open protesters as there were with the George Floyd protesters, thus no windows smashed, cop cars set on fire and buildings burned to the ground. Also law enforcement was not the target of the protest in the one as the other therefore a different police response.
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There were no anarchists imbedded with the re-open protesters as there were with the George Floyd protesters, thus no windows smashed, cop cars set on fire and buildings burned to the ground.
Hmm Anger of protesting murders vs not being able to get drunk at a bar... But if youre right the police never charged at right wing protestors who bring heavy artillery with them to protest vs a couple hammers, fireworks, odd hidden pistol and spray paint.
Remember the Bundy standoff? I wonder how trumps (and the general rights) reaction would be if it was a large group of heavily armed black militia men.
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Hmm Anger of protesting murders vs not being able to get drunk at a bar... But if youre right the police never charged at right wing protestors who bring heavy artillery with them to protest vs a couple hammers, fireworks, odd hidden pistol and spray paint.
Remember the Bundy standoff? I wonder how trumps (and the general rights) reaction would be if it was a large group of heavily armed black militia men.
I was just comparing not justifying one over the other.
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In before another Nads thread lock.
rent free
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You might be right, though it still might have been nice to see the president of the United States at least try to act like a leader for all Americans instead of a third-world strongman.
He wants to be a third world strongman. But neither has the ability nor energy to actually be one. Too much work really.
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I was just comparing not justifying one over the other.
Sorry for my response then. it came off that you were.
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There were no anarchists imbedded with the re-open protesters as there were with the George Floyd protesters, thus no windows smashed, cop cars set on fire and buildings burned to the ground. Also law enforcement was not the target of the protest in the one as the other therefore a different police response.
When I posted that (May 27), from everything that I saw the protests to that point had been without violence/vandalism/looting. Even then, police appeared to be using undue/excessive force where not needed.
But, as Eng said, perhaps that was just what I was seeing from my bubble/tribe.
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rent free
Impulsive man child with zero self control or filter. Blue balled blogger
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Impulsive man child with zero self control or filter. Blue balled blogger
Now who is trying to lock the thread by violating Scoop rule #1? Look in the mirror.
I don't insult you or call you names. I pretty much try to ignore you - except for when I actually have voiced support for you.
Your obsession with me is bizarre. I've tried to work it out with you via PM but you blew me off.
Whatevs, man. We all need hobbies, I guess.
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Forgetful is correct, we lose sight of the good because it by and large the good "doesn't sell". Note, I'm making an approximation here: 80% of the protest interactions are normal, 15% are extraordinary(cops and protesters comforting/supporting each other), and 5% is terrible(rioting, cops lack of restraint, physical attacks, etc). You have breathless reporting at the national level of all the horrible going on that is disproportionate to reality which gets further compounded by social media where depending who you follow and their personal narrative influences what you see in your timelines so to speak.
Collectively we need to step back from our individual tribes and narratives and think of the other tribes and how we bridge the gaps between them constructively....
And we're going to have to do it because the president has abdicated his role in that process. We assess what we have and where we need to go and then go.
Good post until you went back into your "tribe".
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There were no anarchists imbedded with the re-open protesters as there were with the George Floyd protesters, thus no windows smashed, cop cars set on fire and buildings burned to the ground. Also law enforcement was not the target of the protest in the one as the other therefore a different police response.
In Chicago, the police were beating on protesters before any windows started getting smashed and cars were lit on fire. Just cops doing cop things when their authority is challenged by young people and people of color.
In Minnesota, they were drive-by pepper-spraying peaceful protests day 1.
For the Laquan McDonald protests, the cops let the protesters march until they were tired. This time the police formed lines and tried to physically force the protesters back the way they came with shoving and hitting with their batons. It's no surprise that the protests escalated after the cops escalated the violence.
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Aproposs of nothing ...
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZc1uBnU0AA9ArH?format=jpg&name=small)
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Good post until you went back into your "tribe".
Not criticism, just facts.
I don't know that anyone on the SuperBar would call me a card carrying liberal or a member of a leftward tribe. I included that because I was directly looking outside of my tribe (as a card carrying modern whig).
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Not criticism, just facts.
I don't know that anyone on the SuperBar would call me a card carrying liberal or a member of a leftward tribe. I included that because I was directly looking outside of my tribe (as a card carrying modern whig).
I know lots of Scoopers who are card carrying members of da modern Know Nothing Party, ai''na?
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Not criticism, just facts.
I don't know that anyone on the SuperBar would call me a card carrying liberal or a member of a leftward tribe. I included that because I was directly looking outside of my tribe (as a card carrying modern whig).
Not criticism, just facts that some Governors and Mayors have abdicated their roles as well as the President.
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In Chicago, the police were beating on protesters before any windows started getting smashed and cars were lit on fire. Just cops doing cop things when their authority is challenged by young people and people of color.
In Minnesota, they were drive-by pepper-spraying peaceful protests day 1.
For the Laquan McDonald protests, the cops let the protesters march until they were tired. This time the police formed lines and tried to physically force the protesters back the way they came with shoving and hitting with their batons. It's no surprise that the protests escalated after the cops escalated the violence.
Eh.
I'll say MAYBE the protests would have escalated in places where the police began with violent acts. At least, if those places only included legitimate protesters.
In areas where there have been anarchists, counter-protesters, provocative agents, etc - those areas were going to become violent/criminal because of those other groups, regardless of what the police did/didn't do.
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Not criticism, just facts that some Governors and Mayors have abdicated their roles as well as the President.
You aren't wrong
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Good post until you went back into your "tribe".
Way off base. Eng is very pragmatic. If I had to use a label it would be Centrist or just right of center. He has never posted as a lib on Scoop.
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https://www.instagram.com/p/CA52wlwn8oO/?igshid=lgvqbh5i1jf3
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Cops just fired tear gas and flash bang grenades on peaceful protesters in front of the White House. What the actual f---? Looks like a cop riot.
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Firing at peaceful American citizens. The entire effen country is gonna turn into Kent State before this dictator-wannabe is through.
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Trump doesn't control the DC police does he?
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Not criticism, just facts that some Governors and Mayors have abdicated their roles as well as the President.
nm
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https://www.instagram.com/p/CA52wlwn8oO/?igshid=lgvqbh5i1jf3
Good lord. that's secret service protocol to move the president to the bunker or AF1 any time there is a physical threat to the president---any president.
They didn't allow GWB to land on 9/11 after he left the school he was at, and Cheney was taken to the bunker.
https://www.history.com/news/september-11-attacks-shootdown-order-cheney-bush (https://www.history.com/news/september-11-attacks-shootdown-order-cheney-bush)
But OMB ran away is the alternative narrative.
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Trump doesn't control the DC police does he?
Generally, no...but he can.
Under the District of Columbia Home Rule Act, the President can declare an emergency and require the DC mayor to to essentially "give" him the use of the police for "federal purposes" for up to 48 hours. Dunno if he has invoked this act, but just knowing it's there probably gives him a fair bit of influence over how the mayor deploys the police.
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Trump doesn't control the DC police does he?
It was National Park and military police. They hold jurisdiction around the White House.
They fired tear gas, flash bang grenades and rubber bullets on peaceful protesters so Trump could walk across the street for a photo op.
And now he's threatening to send the Army into cities that don't deal with protests to his liking.
Sh*tshow.
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I just saw Trump say if the local authorities don't get rioting under control he would order active duty military in.....
1. That's banana republic $hit
2. I believe such an order would unlawful and if active duty I would refuse to obey it.
3. I voted for Trump, but I will not do so again. He has failed his leadership test as of now
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It was National Park and military police. They hold jurisdiction around the White House.
They fired tear gas, flash bang grenades and rubber bullets on peaceful protesters so Trump could walk across the street for a photo op.
And now he's threatening to send the Army into cities that don't deal with protests to his liking.
Sh*tshow.
So the law and order president has vowed to break the law by sending military troops into states.
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So the law and order president has vowed to break the law by sending military troops into states.
Law for the, not for me
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Good lord. that's secret service protocol to move the president to the bunker or AF1 any time there is a physical threat to the president---any president.
They didn't allow GWB to land on 9/11 after he left the school he was at, and Cheney was taken to the bunker.
https://www.history.com/news/september-11-attacks-shootdown-order-cheney-bush (https://www.history.com/news/september-11-attacks-shootdown-order-cheney-bush)
But OMB ran away is the alternative narrative.
Peaceful protests are a physical threat to the president? Comparing peaceful protests to the uncertainty of what was going on on 9/11? Good Lord is right.
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Peaceful protests are a physical threat to the president? Comparing peaceful protests to the uncertainty of what was going on on 9/11? Good Lord is right.
The protests were hardly peaceful given that several fires were set and destruction of property occurred. Let's not lose the plot here
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So the law and order president has vowed to break the law by sending military troops into states.
I mean, it's all a bluff anyhow. He's tossing red meat to the yokels who support him. It's reality TV from the reality TV president. He's never actually going to send the Army into downtown Chicago or Los Angeles.*
* I sincerely hope this doesn't land me on Frozen Cold Takes.
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Trump doesn't control the DC police does he?
According to what I've read, it's both "local and federal law enforcement."
I think Pakuni is right that it's bluster for his easily conned sheeple, but that still was the kind of speech that Saddam Hussein would give.
mu03, I'm proud of you for coming to a realization on this dangerous, deranged, dishonest strongman-wannabe.
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Has the Posse Comitatus Act ever been tested?
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Peaceful protests are a physical threat to the president? Comparing peaceful protests to the uncertainty of what was going on on 9/11? Good Lord is right.
Burning a church and the AFL-CIO building is sure peaceful.
Maybe wades was out their with his A mask on with the rest of antifa.
(ahuck, ahuck, ahuck, antifa means anti-fascist, just like our grandparents on D-day.)
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Burning a church and the AFL-CIO building is sure peaceful.
Maybe wades was out their with his A mask on with the rest of antifa.
(ahuck, ahuck, ahuck, antifa means anti-fascist, just like our grandparents on D-day.)
That was yesterday. Different group of people.
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Eff calm. Eff unity. Eff empathy. Idi Trump is gonna start gunning down Americans, especially our black citizens. Jason Kessler, Richard Spencer and David Duke must be beaming right now!
If only he had been this forceful when the torch-carrying, anti-Semitic-chanting, white supremacist terrorists were menacing the people of Charlottesville and, ultimately, killing an innocent woman.
I guess this must mean that there are zero "very fine people" at any of these rallies.
Putin is smiling, too. His puppet is performing perfectly.
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That was yesterday. Different group of people.
No, the discussion was about the president be taken to the bunker last night.
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The greatest failure of leadership in the history of this country. An absolute embarrassment. Waging a war on his own citizens.
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Did we really just witness military police use tear gas and rubber bullets to clear peaceful American protesters out of Lafayette Park so Idi Trump could stroll through, surrounded by his merry band of white nationalists, for a photo op?
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Now Trump uses the military to clear out protesters so he can have a photo op at a church. Wow.
https://apnews.com/b3817623ef861818803b5676d43741ea
As Trump spoke, an incredible TV split screen developed around the White House. While he addressed the nation in the White House’s idyllic Rose Garden, a series of military vehicles rolled out front on Pennsylvania Avenue and military police and law enforcement clashed with protesters at Lafayette Park.
Those peaceful demonstrators were cleared so Trump could walk across the park to St. John’s Episcopal Church, known as “The Church of the Presidents,” which suffered fire damage in a protest this week. Holding a Bible, he then stood with several of his Cabinet members as the cameras clicked.
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This is freakin surreal.
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Now Trump uses the military to clear out protesters so he can have a photo op at a church. Wow.
https://apnews.com/b3817623ef861818803b5676d43741ea
As Trump spoke, an incredible TV split screen developed around the White House. While he addressed the nation in the White House’s idyllic Rose Garden, a series of military vehicles rolled out front on Pennsylvania Avenue and military police and law enforcement clashed with protesters at Lafayette Park.
Those peaceful demonstrators were cleared so Trump could walk across the park to St. John’s Episcopal Church, known as “The Church of the Presidents,” which suffered fire damage in a protest this week. Holding a Bible, he then stood with several of his Cabinet members as the cameras clicked.
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This is freakin surreal.
And the pastor of the Church is PISSED.
Anyway, the ironic thing is that this is the sort of action that Trump voters would have been rightfully up in arms about it if Obama had done it.
Remember that time the GOP labeled him an “Emperor?”
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Has the Posse Comitatus Act ever been tested?
Doesn't apply because Trump would have to invoke the Insurrection Act to force the army in without state permission. Posse Comitatus limits the authority to use the military on American soil in a police capacity when in cooperation with the states.
To my knowledge the Insurrection Act has never been used without the states agreeing except for the Civil War
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250 active duty military personnel deploying to DC from Fort Bragg. Remember where you were today.
https://www.abc57.com/news/active-duty-troops-deploying-to-washington-dc
"Washington, they had large groups, very large groups. ... But Washington was under great control," Trump said. "But we're going to have it under much more control. We're pouring in -- we're going to pull in thousands of people."
"We're going to clamp down very, very strong," Trump said. "The word is dominate. If you don't dominate your city and your state, they're gonna walk away with you. And we're doing it in Washington, in DC, we're going to do something that people haven't seen before. ... But we're going to have total domination."
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This is so messed up
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Where are all the republicans shouting about this? Is this not the big government you guys all ranted about and freaked out about every time Obama did a single thing?! Just admit you don't stand for $hit outside of the social crap your religion tells you.
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Where are all the republicans shouting about this? Is this not the big government you guys all ranted about and freaked out about every time Obama did a single thing?! Just admit you don't stand for $hit outside of the social crap your religion tells you.
I’d say it’s more personal wealth than religion, but yeah.
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Where are all the republicans shouting about this? Is this not the big government you guys all ranted about and freaked out about every time Obama did a single thing?! Just admit you don't stand for $hit outside of the social crap your religion tells you.
Marco Rubio will tweet a heartwarming bible verse tomorrow and Ted Cruz will fight with a celebrity on twitter.
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If you plan on participating, here are 19 helpful tips.
Don't forget the comfortable shoes and the burner phone
https://www.buzzfeed.com/ajanibazile/protesting-tips
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Where are all the republicans shouting about this? Is this not the big government you guys all ranted about and freaked out about every time Obama did a single thing?! Just admit you don't stand for $hit outside of the social crap your religion tells you.
States' rights!
Local control!
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Marco Rubio will tweet a heartwarming bible verse tomorrow and Ted Cruz will fight with a celebrity on twitter.
Close: https://twitter.com/marcorubio/status/1267594880634806279?s=21
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Close: https://twitter.com/marcorubio/status/1267594880634806279?s=21
Looks like Marco needs a new watch.
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https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1221456?__twitter_impression=true
Lots of (intentional) chaos and disinformation out there.
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I just saw Trump say if the local authorities don't get rioting under control he would order active duty military in.....
1. That's banana republic $hit
2. I believe such an order would unlawful and if active duty I would refuse to obey it.
3. I voted for Trump, but I will not do so again. He has failed his leadership test as of now
I think you need to study your history. It absolutely is not banana republic $hit. President Eisenhower in Arkansas with the Little Rock Nine to allow school integration. I can give you other examples. What are you going to do, just let people burn everything down? Kill innocent people? Protesting is an American right and protected under the 1st Amendment. Destroying people's property and killing innocent people is not.
What do you think gun sales are going to happen this week and next? Skyrocketed.
Something that you all may want to wake up and think about. If you want to go this direction, then sit back and let people burn it to the ground, but you will be most displeased with how things go if you do. People are universally against what happened to Mr. Floyd, but they are not going to remain there if the outcome is massive destruction to life and property.
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2015/05/new-study-shows-riots-make-america-conservative.html
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Gotta give Idi Trump credit: Just about nobody is talking about the coronavirus right now.
Nobody thought it was possible, but he actually found a crisis he could screw up even worse.
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https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1221456?__twitter_impression=true
Lots of (intentional) chaos and disinformation out there.
The opportunists from all sides are doing their bidding in this. Social media makes it easier than ever with sheep following both camps without even thinking.
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THUG!
John Beilein is proud of you
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This is what bothers me. There are massive protests involving millions of people around the US right now. There are a handful of outliers that turn it violent. The media focuses on that element.
At the same time, there are thousands of police, doing the right thing during these protests, and there are outliers (saw a sad 20 minute video of police brutality during these protests) violently attacking peaceful protesters. Certain aspects of the media focus on the police doing the right thing.
The reality is there is about 1% of the population that are simply crappy people.
Agree with you, but we act on what the 1% do and extrapolate it to suggest many more are crappy people. Emotions trump sanity and here we are.
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https://www.instagram.com/p/CA6eeZVpcwh/?igshid=dht77ou1mmnd
Cheeks desperately needs a change of perspective.
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@ScottGordonNBC5: Protesters just told police on bullhorn if officers took a knee they would go home. Officers took a knee. Protesters came up to cops and shook their hands, hugged them. Remarkable. https://twitter.com/ScottGordonNBC5/status/1267634539158962176/video/1
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And the pastor of the Church is PISSED.
Anyway, the ironic thing is that this is the sort of action that Trump voters would have been rightfully up in arms about it if Obama had done it.
Remember that time the GOP labeled him an “Emperor?”
Way beyond pissed.
It was actually Bishop Mariann Budde, leader of The Episcopal Diocese of Washington who put out a no-holds-barred statement denouncing Trump.
Any "christian" who still supports the president after this is a christian in name-only. They have all sold their savior for 30 pieces of silver.
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@ScottGordonNBC5: Protesters just told police on bullhorn if officers took a knee they would go home. Officers took a knee. Protesters came up to cops and shook their hands, hugged them. Remarkable. https://twitter.com/ScottGordonNBC5/status/1267634539158962176/video/1
Building a bridge through understanding and empathy. A great moment.
Most of the protesters are good people, and most police are too. It just took a few of both in Fort Worth to lead the way toward healing. We need more of this, not more firepower.
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Is the threat to use the military against American citizens a trial balloon for actions in November if/when he loses the election?
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Is the threat to use the military against American citizens a trial balloon for actions in November if/when he loses the election?
Isn't there already a Covid conspiracy tinfoil thread on Scoop?
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Way beyond pissed.
It was actually Bishop Mariann Budde, leader of The Episcopal Diocese of Washington who put out a no-holds-barred statement denouncing Trump.
Once he arrived at St John’s, Trump held up a Bible that read “God is love”, while posing in front of the church’s sign.
The Right Rev Mariann Budde, the Episcopal bishop of Washington, told the Washington Post: “I am the bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of Washington and was not given even a courtesy call, that they would be clearing [the area] with tear gas so they could use one of our churches as a prop.”
Trump’s message is at odds with the values of love and tolerance espoused by the church, Budde said, before describing the president’s visit as an opportunity to use the church, and a Bible, as a “backdrop”.
“Let me be clear, the President just used a Bible, the most sacred text of the Judeo-Christian tradition, and one of the churches of my diocese, without permission, as a backdrop for a message antithetical to the teachings of Jesus,” she told CNN.
“We align ourselves with those seeking justice for the death of George Floyd and countless others. And I just can’t believe what my eyes have seen,” she added.
“I don’t want President Trump speaking for St John’s. We so dissociate ourselves from the messages of this president,” she told the Washington Post. “We hold the teachings of our sacred texts to be so, so grounding to our lives and everything we do, and it is about love of neighbor and sacrificial love and justice.”
Every single time we think this dangerous, racist lunatic can't go any lower, he manages to find a new way.
It's hard to imagine him going lower than having military police tear-gas and shoot at peaceful protesters so he can take a photo-op stroll to a church that wants nothing to do with him, but I have confidence that he will.
Maybe bomb a U.S. city? Why not? It would be a fine show of "domination." Watch out, Minneapolis!
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I think you need to study your history. It absolutely is not banana republic $hit. President Eisenhower in Arkansas with the Little Rock Nine to allow school integration. I can give you other examples. What are you going to do, just let people burn everything down? Kill innocent people? Protesting is an American right and protected under the 1st Amendment. Destroying people's property and killing innocent people is not.
Nope. You are the one that needs to study their history. Ike federalized the Arkansas national guard. Also the national guard was used to quell the Vietnam riots. But the national guard is a reserve force. Not active military.
It is against the Posse Comitatus Act to use *active* military to enforce domestic law.
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OK ... it's not easy, but I'm trying to find something - anything! - positive out of all this.
I stumbled across this montage of photos from various protests, most showing black folks and white folks, including many police officers, banding together to fight the scourge of systemic racism in America.
It made me feel better. Hopefully others will be similarly uplifted, even if only for a few moments ...
https://www.boredpanda.com/george-floyd-police-brutality-protest/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=BPFacebook&fbclid=IwAR1NGahGK8riaSIOb_J-bLk2aRnf_9bJWZISSvQbQLy-zLjbRZx4M9c-9Vw
An example:
(https://static.boredpanda.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/5ed4aa1dec72f_vcyxupx4s1251__700.jpg)
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I found this video this morning. I thought it promoted calm and unity.
Powerful protest moments from across the country
Duration: 02:42
https://www.msn.com/en-us/video/tunedin/powerful-protest-moments-from-across-the-country/vi-BB14TJiL
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Isn't there already a Covid conspiracy tinfoil thread on Scoop?
If you think that gassing and assaulting LEGAL protesters was the bottom for Trump, think again, my friend.
On Sunday, speaking about Trump, George Will (yes, that George Will, the lifelong conservative republican) said, "There is no such thing as rock bottom. So, assume that the worst is yet to come".
On July 28, 2017, in front of uniformed police, Trump urged them “please don’t be too nice” when handling suspected offenders. Minneapolis police fulfilled his wish last week. A president called for police brutality and they took him seriously.
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https://crooksandliars.com/2020/06/watch-kansas-city-riot-police-snatch-black
More dirty cops!
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I found this video this morning. I thought it promoted calm and unity.
Powerful protest moments from across the country
Duration: 02:42
https://www.msn.com/en-us/video/tunedin/powerful-protest-moments-from-across-the-country/vi-BB14TJiL
I believe the words of Terrence Floyd reflect the views of the vast majority of protesters. I hope that his speaking out quells the property damage and looting promoted by a few.
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I believe the words of Terrence Floyd reflect the views of the vast majority of protesters. I hope that his speaking out quells the property damage and looting promoted by a few.
Amen!
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We make a mistake when we conflate the protesters with the vandals and the looters. If we were to create a Venn diagram between the people who show up with a sincere intent to protest injustice with those who end up committing acts of violence and property damage, the crossover would be pretty small.
The good news is that it's a small minority of the crowd responsible for the criminal acts.
The bad news is that small minority isn't likely to heed the words of Terrence Floyd and others like him.
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We're seeing time and again what happens when police make the effort to show empathy and solidarity with protesters rather than trying to "dominate" them.
https://twitter.com/stevebartlettsc/status/1267255462606581762
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We're seeing time and again what happens when police make the effort to show empathy and solidarity with protesters rather than trying to "dominate" them.
https://twitter.com/stevebartlettsc/status/1267255462606581762
You post shows why this situation is so distressing to so many people. The link shows how easy it is to show that you care and the effect that it has.
Compare the actions of this cop to the president's thuggery yesterday and it is easy to see where the Trump hatred comes from and why it is fully justified. In fact, I am dumfounded as to why 40%+ of the population still supports him.
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We make a mistake when we conflate the protesters with the vandals and the looters. If we were to create a Venn diagram between the people who show up with a sincere intent to protest injustice with those who end up committing acts of violence and property damage, the crossover would be pretty small.
The good news is that it's a small minority of the crowd responsible for the criminal acts.
The bad news is that small minority isn't likely to heed the words of Terrence Floyd and others like him.
Yep. What you say is true. There will be a relatively small number of people who loot and inflame the situation just for the sake of it.
One of the stirring images from the weekend was Michigan Ave. flooded with people. For blocks and blocks and blocks, the street was filled with 10s of thousands of people. It looked like it could be a sports team's victory celebration.
There was some looting going on. Several storefronts had windows smashed and stuff stolen. But if there were 50,000 people there, how many of them were committing crimes? Maybe 250? Maybe 500? Even if it's the latter (which it probably wasn't), that's 1%.
That's still too many, but it does provide some perspective.
How many Chicago cops commit brutality, most of which is never caught on camera? Does 1% sound high or low? I'm gonna give the men in blue the benefit of the doubt and say it's probably high, but I think the point is fair.
People are effen fed up. They were fed up before George Floyd was murdered in cold blood by a cop while three of his cop-mates stood by and watched. They were really, really fed up after Floyd's life was snuffed out as he pleaded that he couldn't breathe. And then when some leaders, including the man at the top, respond with no empathy, no calm, no attempts to unite, and instead threaten to gun down American citizens, that's how you get where we are.
What happens if one of Idi Trump's military operations responds to a thrown bottle by firing bullets into a crowd? Our formerly great democratic republic will burn for weeks.
I mean, just yesterday, Idi had his military use tear gas and flash grenades to disperse peaceful protesters so he could have a photo op.
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Life is so much simpler and better when you ask yourself a few simple questions.
What kind of stories about will I tell my grandkids?
How well attended will my funeral be? Will the people be there to celebrate my death or my life?
If I happen to believe in the metaphor of St. Peter at the pearly gates, what am I going to have to try to justify or explain away?
I protested a horrible injustice.
I rioted and looted and tried to promote chaos and racial/class warfare.
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https://www.instagram.com/p/CA6eeZVpcwh/?igshid=dht77ou1mmnd
Why are so many African American leaders pleading to have the destruction of property and the burning of cities to stop? Is it because they know it damages the community from an economic (tax revenue and lost jobs), removes services in the community, takes away from the issue at hand (police brutality), all of the above?
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Two nights of protests through Milwaukee into the north burbs, and they remained remarkably peaceful. Sunday night it sounded like a couple of people had other ideas, but thankfully there was no real conflict, in large part due to the Shorewood/WFB/Brown Deer police showing a ton of restraint. The police tried to carve a path out for police and some followed, some didn't.
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Is the threat to use the military against American citizens a trial balloon for actions in November if/when he loses the election?
What if he wins the election and radical people cannot except that either and start to destroy again?
On the subject of military troops, Ike was already mentioned in 1957. In 1965, LBJ did the same in Alabama. In 1968, LBJ sent the 82nd Airborne and 101st Infantry to Detroit to stop the rioting. Over 2000 buildings destroyed, 7200 arrests, almost 50 people killed.
There are other examples, twelve in all in the nation's history ranging from President Obama, Bush, LBJ, Eisenhower and others. Presidents of all stripes, ideologies have sent US troops into American cities. The idea that it is unlawful is wrong. The Insurrection Act allows for it.
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I believe the words of Terrence Floyd reflect the views of the vast majority of protesters. I hope that his speaking out quells the property damage and looting promoted by a few.
His grace in the face of his brother being murdered is beyond commendable. I’m not sure many could do that.
It should be readily apparent to everyone that there are two groups of people, the peaceful protestors who are exercising their first amendment rights and are the overwhelming majority. Then there are the looters and anarchists that are stealing the media’s attention and destroying whatever they see if front of them. There are no easy answers, but the only thing I can think is the curfews have to be enforced by the police. It’s the only way to separate the peaceful protestors from the looters and anarchists. Allowing curfews to be broken is an untenable position.
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Nope. You are the one that needs to study their history. Ike federalized the Arkansas national guard. Also the national guard was used to quell the Vietnam riots. But the national guard is a reserve force. Not active military.
It is against the Posse Comitatus Act to use *active* military to enforce domestic law.
I know my history on this topic very well. 1968, LBJ sends 82d Airborne and 101st Infantry to Detroit to stop riots. Ike Federalized the Reserves, making them immediately active military. That is what that action did.
The Insurrection Act of 1807 is a United States federal law (10 U.S.C. §§ 251–255; prior to 2016, 10 U.S.C. §§ 331–335) that empowers the president of the United States to deploy military troops within the United States in particular circumstances, such as to suppress civil disorder, insurrection and rebellion.
The act provides the "major exception" to the Posse Comitatus Act, which otherwise limits the use of the U.S. military for law enforcement within the United States.[1]
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Oops
https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/500628-priest-among-those-police-cleared-from-st-johns-patio-for-trump-visit (https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/500628-priest-among-those-police-cleared-from-st-johns-patio-for-trump-visit)
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I know my history on this topic very well. 1968, LBJ sends 82d Airborne and 101st Infantry to Detroit to stop riots. Ike Federalized the Reserves, making them immediately active military. That is what that action did.
You don't seem to know your history very well. The Michigan governor requested that LBJ bring troops in. LBJ didn't do it unilaterally.
In the case of Arkansas, the mayor asked Ike directly for help. That is after the governor of Arkansas removed the national guard troops that had been protecting blacks during school integration. Ike federalized the national guard troops at the mayor's request to move the guard back in to protect the citizens.
Trump sent federal troops into a state against the wishes of the state's government.
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In all prior invocations of the Insurrection Act, it's been done at either the request of the states (i.e. LA riots) or because the states were actively suppressing constitutional rights (i.e. Little Rock).
Neither is occurring here.
And again, none of this is actually going to happen. Trump is putting on a show for the mouthbreathing, mentally limited bumpkins who believe the words that spew from out of his mouth. It's another one of his toothless threats (see: forcing states to reopen churches, shutting down social media, etc.).
Apparently our resident "lifelong Democrat from Chicago" is buying it, though.
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Oops
https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/500628-priest-among-those-police-cleared-from-st-johns-patio-for-trump-visit (https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/500628-priest-among-those-police-cleared-from-st-johns-patio-for-trump-visit)
“I am shaken, not so much by the taste of tear gas and the bit of a cough I still have, but by the fact that that show of force was for a PHOTO OPPORTUNITY,” she said. “The patio of St. John's, Lafayette square had been HOLY GROUND today. A place of respite and laughter and water and granola bars and fruit snacks. But that man turned it into a BATTLE GROUND first, and a cheap political stunt second.”
Powerful. More powerful than the guns Idi Trump is deploying in a thread to gun down Americans.
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In all prior invocations of the Insurrection Act, it's been done at either the request of the states (i.e. LA riots) or because the states were actively suppressing constitutional rights (i.e. Little Rock).
Neither is occurring here.
And again, none of this is actually going to happen. Trump is putting on a show for the mouthbreathing, mentally limited bumpkins who believe the words that spew from out of his mouth. It's another one of his toothless threats (see: forcing states to reopen churches, shutting down social media, etc.).
Apparently our resident "lifelong Democrat from Chicago" is buying it, though.
Leave him alone, Pak. He's just trying to get his emperor's approval.
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Yep. What you say is true. There will be a relatively small number of people who loot and inflame the situation just for the sake of it.
One of the stirring images from the weekend was Michigan Ave. flooded with people. For blocks and blocks and blocks, the street was filled with 10s of thousands of people. It looked like it could be a sports team's victory celebration.
There was some looting going on. Several storefronts had windows smashed and stuff stolen. But if there were 50,000 people there, how many of them were committing crimes? Maybe 250? Maybe 500? Even if it's the latter (which it probably wasn't), that's 1%.
That's still too many, but it does provide some perspective.
How many Chicago cops commit brutality, most of which is never caught on camera? Does 1% sound high or low? I'm gonna give the men in blue the benefit of the doubt and say it's probably high, but I think the point is fair.
People are effen fed up. They were fed up before George Floyd was murdered in cold blood by a cop while three of his cop-mates stood by and watched. They were really, really fed up after Floyd's life was snuffed out as he pleaded that he couldn't breathe. And then when some leaders, including the man at the top, respond with no empathy, no calm, no attempts to unite, and instead threaten to gun down American citizens, that's how you get where we are.
But the problem is what concurrently happened on the West Side. It was chaos, people shooting out of cars, looting leading to store owners on their roofs with guns. My former favorite block of Milwaukee Ave in Wicker Park was wrecked and trashed.
I commend Chicago for the River North protests for being largely calm. But the spillover through the city is not what it needed. Hell, you had the Latin Kings working with CPD to stop looting and chaos in minority neighborhoods.
You’re gonna have a hell of a time uniting people while that is going on. It’s horrible that bad actors can spoil a message, but it’s the facts. I’m not smart enough or experienced enough on how to stop or prevent it, but the idea that any focus on that is improper perspective is frustrating. I can be supportive and in favor of the equality message and protests and still realize how F’ed up and hypocritical it is for the concurrent looting and violence.
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I can be supportive and in favor of the equality message and protests and still realize how F’ed up and hypocritical it is for the concurrent looting and violence.
If you let the looting distract you from the fight for justice, and the hard work and tough questions that entails, you never cared about justice in the first place.
People say "What happened to George Floyd was wrong and we need to fix it, BUT blah looting blah violence blah blah."
Here's the thing ... you don't need the but. You can say "What happened to George Floyd was wrong and we need to fix it" and stop there.
Linking that statement with the looting serves no purpose but to distract from the real issues. It provides an easy out from accepting that we're all part of the problem, we're all complicit in the ongoing existence of a system that allows these injustices and some of us benefit from it. But when you stop at "What happened to George Floyd was wrong and we need to fix it," then you have to ask yourself, "How do we fix it?" And that's hard and uncomfortable and forces us to face some uncomfortable truths. And none us like that, so let's talk about the looting instead.
Look, the rioting and looting is not the problem here. It's a symptom of the problem. It's the headache that comes with a brain tumor. And those focused on the rioting instead of the injustice are more interested in giving the patient an Advil than dealing with the tumor.
And that was rambling and likely not very eloquent, but I hope you get the point.
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Largely, the bad actors in both camps need to be ignored (the rioters to Pakuni's point are a small subset of the protesters and there are definitely a subset of cops who are acting out for whatever reason). The core message of the protesters is righteous and the police organizations need to realize that they are part of the issue. That is the fundamental facts here. Just because I believe the way policing is conducted in this country is broken doesn't mean that I don't support the police or the people who make up the organizations. The majority of the of cops are good people, but as a process, concept , and organization......policing in the United States needs to be revamped.
I don't know what the end of the protests look like (people have a lot of time on their hands) but the sooner we accept there is a foundational flaw in our current approach that result in negative outcomes biased against minorities the sooner we can move forward. Typically, I'm a see both sides kind of person, if for no other reason to spur debate so we can all learn from it. But this isn't one of those things where there is two sides to the coin.....it is broken, we need to accept that and start working on what the fix looks like.
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If you let the looting distract you from the fight for justice, and the hard work and tough questions that entails, you never cared about justice in the first place.
People say "What happened to George Floyd was wrong and we need to fix it, BUT blah looting blah violence blah blah."
Here's the thing ... you don't need the but. You can say "What happened to George Floyd was wrong and we need to fix it" and stop there.
Linking that statement with the looting serves no purpose but to distract from the real issues. It provides an easy out from accepting that we're all part of the problem, we're all complicit in the ongoing existence of a system that allows these injustices and some of us benefit from it.
Look, the rioting and looting is not the problem here. It's a symptom of the problem. It's the headache that comes with a brain tumor. And those focused on the rioting instead of the injustice are more interested in giving the patient an Advil than dealing with the tumor.
And that was rambling and likely not very eloquent, but I hope you get the point.
I think it was a solid summary. I'd go so far as to say rioting isn't even a symptom of the disease, it's a secondary infection that got in because the body was busy fighting with itself on the primary disease. Rioting and looting is opportunistic and has zero intent to be part of a message....it's something to be done because people are greedy and selfish. There is a reason we see protests with looting/rioting but we never see rioting/looting without protests.
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But the problem is what concurrently happened on the West Side. It was chaos, people shooting out of cars, looting leading to store owners on their roofs with guns. My former favorite block of Milwaukee Ave in Wicker Park was wrecked and trashed.
I commend Chicago for the River North protests for being largely calm. But the spillover through the city is not what it needed. Hell, you had the Latin Kings working with CPD to stop looting and chaos in minority neighborhoods.
You’re gonna have a hell of a time uniting people while that is going on. It’s horrible that bad actors can spoil a message, but it’s the facts. I’m not smart enough or experienced enough on how to stop or prevent it, but the idea that any focus on that is improper perspective is frustrating. I can be supportive and in favor of the equality message and protests and still realize how F’ed up and hypocritical it is for the concurrent looting and violence.
You make many points I wouldn't even try to refute. However, overall, I agree with Pakuni, mu03eng and Gregg Popovich on this subject.
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But the problem is what concurrently happened on the West Side. It was chaos, people shooting out of cars, looting leading to store owners on their roofs with guns. My former favorite block of Milwaukee Ave in Wicker Park was wrecked and trashed.
I commend Chicago for the River North protests for being largely calm. But the spillover through the city is not what it needed. Hell, you had the Latin Kings working with CPD to stop looting and chaos in minority neighborhoods.
You’re gonna have a hell of a time uniting people while that is going on. It’s horrible that bad actors can spoil a message, but it’s the facts. I’m not smart enough or experienced enough on how to stop or prevent it, but the idea that any focus on that is improper perspective is frustrating. I can be supportive and in favor of the equality message and protests and still realize how F’ed up and hypocritical it is for the concurrent looting and violence.
You are right, that's why I'd ask the police to generally stand down and whatever the mechanism looks like admit collective culpability here. Police organizations around the country have to come out and say "look we get it, we have problems we need to correct, help us understand what that looks like" and then we go from there. The looting is a by product....if the energy of the protesting is put into collaboration to correct the wrongs there will be less protesting and by extension less opportunity to loot.
Ideally the mechanism would be presidential, but that's not going to happen. In lue of that, I'd like to see some Governor + Attorney General + Sheriffs/Police Union organization have a joint press conference to say what I said above. The protests continue because the protesters continue to feel like they aren't heard, in part, because people do the "ya but what about the looting" thing (and they have a lot of time on their hands because 20-30% of this country is unemployed and the vast majority are scared). Some leaders need to stop worrying about the protests/looting and start worrying about the underlying flaw in the system.
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Ideally the mechanism would be presidential, but that's not going to happen. In lue of that, I'd like to see some Governor + Attorney General + Sheriffs/Police Union organization have a joint press conference to say what I said above. The protests continue because the protesters continue to feel like they aren't heard, in part, because people do the "ya but what about the looting" thing (and they have a lot of time on their hands because 20-30% of this country is unemployed and the vast majority are scared). Some leaders need to stop worrying about the protests/looting and start worrying about the underlying flaw in the system.
As long as it isn't this guy - and sadly, he has a big platform in Minneapolis.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/01/bob-kroll-george-floyd-minneapolis-police-union-chief
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You are right, that's why I'd ask the police to generally stand down and whatever the mechanism looks like admit collective culpability here. Police organizations around the country have to come out and say "look we get it, we have problems we need to correct, help us understand what that looks like" and then we go from there. The looting is a by product....if the energy of the protesting is put into collaboration to correct the wrongs there will be less protesting and by extension less opportunity to loot.
Ideally the mechanism would be presidential, but that's not going to happen. In lue of that, I'd like to see some Governor + Attorney General + Sheriffs/Police Union organization have a joint press conference to say what I said above. The protests continue because the protesters continue to feel like they aren't heard, in part, because people do the "ya but what about the looting" thing (and they have a lot of time on their hands because 20-30% of this country is unemployed and the vast majority are scared). Some leaders need to stop worrying about the protests/looting and start worrying about the underlying flaw in the system.
In the absence of a real President, it will 100 percent start with law enforcement admitting the problem on their own. One of the most effective tools of the human condition is empathy. The simple acts of kneeling with protestors, walking with them during their march, or saying that "black lives matter" are starting points for developing an empathetic response. Doing some of those things have helped in some areas to keep protests peaceful and limit looting while employing curfews. Will they fix everything, absolutely not, but its a first step and at the very least is a deescalating response compared to rubber bullets and flash bangs.
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In the absence of a real President, it will 100 percent start with law enforcement admitting the problem on their own. One of the most effective tools of the human condition is empathy. The simple acts of kneeling with protestors, walking with them during their march, or saying that "black lives matter" are starting points for developing an empathetic response. Doing some of those things have helped in some areas to keep protests peaceful and limit looting while employing curfews. Will they fix everything, absolutely not, but its a first step and at the very least is a deescalating response compared to rubber bullets and flash bangs.
Superb post.
As is the case with the coronavirus, there is no one end-all, cure-all way to fix things. It takes hard work, thoughtfulness, empathy, compassion, common sense, patience. Even if the person at the top is incapable of those things, others aren't. And, as you said, we have seen comparatively good results from leaders who have those traits.
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It does not matter if the troops were requested by governors or not. Stephen Vladek of the University of Texas Law school has been writing about this since last year when he said the President could invoke it for immigration enforcement. Vladek believes presidents have too much power, and his piece in the Atlantic outlined that because the power does exist. Vladek wrote again today and yesterday that the President can invoke this.
I don't think he will, it is meat for his base and a bluff, but from a legal theory Vladek says he can. This is a gamble by the president to say to Democratic governors and mayors to clean it up and if you don't, I will. He of course will not, but then any of the burning wreckage he will blame on local and state leaders for not doing enough even when he threatened to invoke the Insurrection Act.
It's a bluff, but he can do it. https://thebulwark.com/trumps-insurrection-act-threat/
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In all prior invocations of the Insurrection Act, it's been done at either the request of the states (i.e. LA riots) or because the states were actively suppressing constitutional rights (i.e. Little Rock).
Neither is occurring here.
And again, none of this is actually going to happen. Trump is putting on a show for the mouthbreathing, mentally limited bumpkins who believe the words that spew from out of his mouth. It's another one of his toothless threats (see: forcing states to reopen churches, shutting down social media, etc.).
Apparently our resident "lifelong Democrat from Chicago" is buying it, though.
Apparently legal scholars are as well "buying it", most of them also Democrats. Not hard core leftists like some in this thread, but there are many of us that are moderate Democrats which irks the hard liners. Moderates will save this country, not the hard right or the hard left. Some day people will come to their senses.
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If you let the looting distract you from the fight for justice, and the hard work and tough questions that entails, you never cared about justice in the first place.
People say "What happened to George Floyd was wrong and we need to fix it, BUT blah looting blah violence blah blah."
Here's the thing ... you don't need the but. You can say "What happened to George Floyd was wrong and we need to fix it" and stop there.
Linking that statement with the looting serves no purpose but to distract from the real issues. It provides an easy out from accepting that we're all part of the problem, we're all complicit in the ongoing existence of a system that allows these injustices and some of us benefit from it. But when you stop at "What happened to George Floyd was wrong and we need to fix it," then you have to ask yourself, "How do we fix it?" And that's hard and uncomfortable and forces us to face some uncomfortable truths. And none us like that, so let's talk about the looting instead.
Look, the rioting and looting is not the problem here. It's a symptom of the problem. It's the headache that comes with a brain tumor. And those focused on the rioting instead of the injustice are more interested in giving the patient an Advil than dealing with the tumor.
And that was rambling and likely not very eloquent, but I hope you get the point.
I think you’re misrepresenting my point. I never said anything about distracting. But you have segment of people saying along the lines of “if you’re upset about the looting and riots, you’re part of the problem”. That’s BS. Hell the protest organizers were eager to share with every reporter they could that it’s not what they are about. You can be pissed about that AND pissed about the blatant systemic inequality and inability for people in power to act with compassion and humanity.
But further, there is a community aspect to all of this. Having tough discussions and sometimes difficult fights against the status quo is what needs to be done. How difficult will it be to tease apart the “protest message” and rioting/looter fallout from someone whose store got ransacked? Some great people will turn the other cheek. But no progress is made, no tide turned, no election won by solely winning over those solidly in your camp. The fringe/middle ground is what needs to be won and I worry about how this disrupts that progress. It doesn’t even have to be slanted news coverage, human nature can be visceral reactions and feelings from people who step out into a ravaged street or neighborhood
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In the absence of a real President, it will 100 percent start with law enforcement admitting the problem on their own. One of the most effective tools of the human condition is empathy. The simple acts of kneeling with protestors, walking with them during their march, or saying that "black lives matter" are starting points for developing an empathetic response. Doing some of those things have helped in some areas to keep protests peaceful and limit looting while employing curfews. Will they fix everything, absolutely not, but its a first step and at the very least is a deescalating response compared to rubber bullets and flash bangs.
Very well said. Empathy can calm the protests, and it can also unite and heal. Tear gas and flash bombs might control the immediate protest, but will only make the deeper problem worse.
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It does not matter if the troops were requested by governors or not. Stephen Vladek of the University of Texas Law school has been writing about this since last year when he said the President could invoke it for immigration enforcement. Vladek believes presidents have too much power, and his piece in the Atlantic outlined that because the power does exist. Vladek wrote again today and yesterday that the President can invoke this.
I don't think he will, it is meat for his base and a bluff, but from a legal theory Vladek says he can. This is a gamble by the president to say to Democratic governors and mayors to clean it up and if you don't, I will. He of course will not, but then any of the burning wreckage he will blame on local and state leaders for not doing enough even when he threatened to invoke the Insurrection Act.
It's a bluff, but he can do it. https://thebulwark.com/trumps-insurrection-act-threat/
Do you know what precedent is? Legal scholars can claim whatever they want is possible but the current precedent is that the only time the Insurrection Act has been invoked without local authority approval(state, county, or city) is during the Civil War which was.....wait for it....an Insurrection. So Trump could certainly invoke the Insurrection Act and order the army in but without precedent the army could refuse to obey the order as unlawful (maybe it is, maybe it isn't....again precedent hasn't been set in this scenario) and/or the local authorities could seek an immediate injunction with the SCOTUS which they would would expedite a hearing on. But no matter what the evaluation of your experts is proof of nothing. He can try but he does not necessarily have the power.
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Apparently legal scholars are as well "buying it", most of them also Democrats. Not hard core leftists like some in this thread, but there are many of us that are moderate Democrats which irks the hard liners. Moderates will save this country, not the hard right or the hard left. Some day people will come to their senses.
Those with moderate political views don't support President Pandemic at every turn, hoopaloop.
George Effen Will, a lifelong conservative Republican who just came out and said that Trump and all of his GOP enablers in Congress need to be voted out in November, is more moderate than you have demonstrated to be in the hundreds of posts you've made since the day after the previous incarnation of hoopaloop got banned.
But at least you're good for a laugh. You do realize that not a single Scooper from "either side" takes your hoopaloopin' seriously, right? Keep 'em coming, though! We need the levity during these dark times.
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Apparently legal scholars are as well "buying it", most of them also Democrats. Not hard core leftists like some in this thread, but there are many of us that are moderate Democrats which irks the hard liners. Moderates will save this country, not the hard right or the hard left. Some day people will come to their senses.
500 law professors.
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Do you know what precedent is? Legal scholars can claim whatever they want is possible but the current precedent is that the only time the Insurrection Act has been invoked without local authority approval(state, county, or city) is during the Civil War which was.....wait for it....an Insurrection. So Trump could certainly invoke the Insurrection Act and order the army in but without precedent the army could refuse to obey the order as unlawful (maybe it is, maybe it isn't....again precedent hasn't been set in this scenario) and/or the local authorities could seek an immediate injunction with the SCOTUS which they would would expedite a hearing on. But no matter what the evaluation of your experts is proof of nothing. He can try but he does not necessarily have the power.
Solid post, Eng. There is a big difference between doing something based on statutory language and past examples (precedent), vs doing something novel based solely on a claim of authority.
In judicial language, Trump's proposed action would create a "case of first impression" for SCOTUS.
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Do you know what precedent is? Legal scholars can claim whatever they want is possible but the current precedent is that the only time the Insurrection Act has been invoked without local authority approval(state, county, or city) is during the Civil War which was.....wait for it....an Insurrection. So Trump could certainly invoke the Insurrection Act and order the army in but without precedent the army could refuse to obey the order as unlawful (maybe it is, maybe it isn't....again precedent hasn't been set in this scenario) and/or the local authorities could seek an immediate injunction with the SCOTUS which they would would expedite a hearing on. But no matter what the evaluation of your experts is proof of nothing. He can try but he does not necessarily have the power.
This addresses the ‘can we’ question perfectly. The ‘should we’ question is at least equally important. The fact we are discussing it should trouble all of us.
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500 law professors.
I shouldn't have been in the middle of drinking water while reading this.
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Scott Walker (R-Marquette Dropout) is still a dipsh!t):
https://twitter.com/ScottWalker/status/1267639017073410048
Hard to imagine any other @POTUS having the guts to walk out of the White House like this:
@realDonaldTrump
Go for the tweet, stay for the replies. Even Lev & Igor weighed in. Also:
The Hoarse Whisperer
@HoarseWisperer
Replying to @ScottWalker @POTUS and @realDonaldTrump
He teargassed some priests and crossed a street.
He didn’t land at Normandy, jackass.
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Scott Walker (R-Marquette Dropout) is still a dipsh!t):
https://twitter.com/ScottWalker/status/1267639017073410048
Hard to imagine any other @POTUS having the guts to walk out of the White House like this:
@realDonaldTrump
Go for the tweet, stay for the replies. Even Lev & Igor weighed in. Also:
The Hoarse Whisperer
@HoarseWisperer
Replying to @ScottWalker @POTUS and @realDonaldTrump
He teargassed some priests and crossed a street.
He didn’t land at Normandy, jackass.
Doing his Marquette education proud.
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The replies were epic.
So wanted to see a pic of Jed Bartlet marching to Congress.
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Scott Walker (R-Marquette Dropout) is still a dipsh!t):
https://twitter.com/ScottWalker/status/1267639017073410048
Hard to imagine any other @POTUS having the guts to walk out of the White House like this:
@realDonaldTrump
Go for the tweet, stay for the replies. Even Lev & Igor weighed in. Also:
The Hoarse Whisperer
@HoarseWisperer
Replying to @ScottWalker @POTUS and @realDonaldTrump
He teargassed some priests and crossed a street.
He didn’t land at Normandy, jackass.
Where were those “guts” when he was drafted?
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Pope John Paul II as photo op...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/religion/2020/06/02/trump-catholic-shrine-church-bible-protesters/
Glad to see POTUS reaching out to lots of different religious traditions right now.
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Crazy stuff in Indy last night.
The largest protest gathered downtown then marched 40+ blocks to the governor's mansion north. LOTS of Indy and state police met them there. Peaceful chanting/protest. Then, 30 minutes of discussion between police leaders and protest leaders.
Result? Hugging and disarming of some police followed by police walking several blocks with them back toward downtown.
The protestors were out past the 8pm curfew. But quickly most were gone by 9 or 10pm.
Beautiful. Sure, the police could have started arresting for being out past curfew, but sure glad they didn't
A few things later on found on reddit and twitter:
1. Apparently there have been multiple fake twitter accounts such as "Indy BLM" trying to incite fake meetups and fake rumors about police instigated violence.
2. Many comments on reddit calling the whole thing "copraganda." Things like the cops don't really care, it's just PR, they'll shoot more protestors tomorrow, etc, etc.
My question - for those with perspectives like #2... What kind of grand/instant compromise or city/state change do you expect to happen at 9pm on a Monday in the heat of the moment? Isn't a small step forward a good thing towards working to real change?
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https://adw.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/06/060220-ADW-Press-Release.pdf
The Archbishop of DC is not happy with Trump and the Knights of Columbus.
According to the National Catholic Reporter, the head of the Knights once worked for Jesse Helms.
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2. Many comments on reddit calling the whole thing "copraganda." Things like the cops don't really care, it's just PR, they'll shoot more protestors tomorrow, etc, etc.
My question - for those with perspectives like #2... What kind of grand/instant compromise or city/state change do you expect to happen at 9pm on a Monday in the heat of the moment? Isn't a small step forward a good thing towards working to real change?
I’ve seen a lot of that response over the last few days. Even in response to the video out of Michigan, to the scene in Ft Worth, etc.. and it’s profoundly depressing. There are plenty of instances of bad cops, racist cops, and there are plenty of cops on a power trip beyond racist intent (see the countless times minority suspects are beaten by other minority officers. But this idea that they are all evil, that they can’t have humanity here that isn’t some underhanded propaganda motive, etc... Do they just want no police? What’s their idealistic alternative?
My biggest takeaway from this, which again is only in theory cause I like practical ideas and experience, is community outreach needs to be HEAVILY emphasized, funded, prioritized. The more people have positive interactions with the police, the more some of the two way bridging can take place. Cause weeding out bad cops is only the first step. Much like people have ill informed opinions of African Americans, LGBT people, foreigners, etc... until they actually meet befriend one and suddenly a demographic stereotype is replaced with an actual fellow human. FAR FAR easier said than done, but it’s all I got right now
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https://twitter.com/samswey/status/1180655701271732224?s=20
Research-based solutions to decreasing police violence.
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Those with moderate political views don't support President Pandemic at every turn, hoopaloop.
George Effen Will, a lifelong conservative Republican who just came out and said that Trump and all of his GOP enablers in Congress need to be voted out in November, is more moderate than you have demonstrated to be in the hundreds of posts you've made since the day after the previous incarnation of hoopaloop got banned.
But at least you're good for a laugh. You do realize that not a single Scooper from "either side" takes your hoopaloopin' seriously, right? Keep 'em coming, though! We need the levity during these dark times.
At every turn? I'm not sure it is even 10% of what he does I support, and certainly not at every turn. I supported his travel ban to China. I believe we should be working hard to reopen the economy where it makes sense. His changes to prison incarcerations was applauded by nearly everyone and should have been done by the previous administration. Beyond that, where am I supporting him? He is against what Sweden is doing, but I find it courageous and worth the risk. Overall his leadership with COVID has been dismal. I can say the same thing about governors and mayors, but when I do so you are upset that I'm not fully on board the team with blinders on. That's not how it works for me.
Good for George Will, I enjoy his baseball knowledge.
I'm sorry you have been conned by people here to think I am someone else, but a handful of you sure have. It goes in waves. I must have seen at least 10 people accused of being others here in the last few months.
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In all prior invocations of the Insurrection Act, it's been done at either the request of the states (i.e. LA riots) or because the states were actively suppressing constitutional rights (i.e. Little Rock).
Neither is occurring here.
Do the troops need to be requested? Not necessarily, says NPR article.
As to whether a state must request the presence of those military forces in the state, that's "not necessarily" the case, according to experts.
A section of the law (§251) says (emphasis ours):
"[T]he President may, upon the request of its legislature or of its governor if the legislature cannot be convened, call into Federal service such of the militia."
But the next section (§252) says:
"Whenever the President considers that unlawful obstructions, combinations, or assemblages, or rebellion against the authority of the United States, make it impracticable to enforce the laws of the United States in any State by the ordinary course of judicial proceedings, he may call into Federal service such of the militia of any State, and use such of the armed forces, as he considers necessary to enforce those laws or to suppress the rebellion."
https://www.npr.org/2020/06/01/867467714/what-is-the-insurrection-act-that-trump-is-threatening-to-invoke
https://twitter.com/steve_vladeck/status/1266752512373243904
https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a494995.pdf
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I’ve seen a lot of that response over the last few days. Even in response to the video out of Michigan, to the scene in Ft Worth, etc.. and it’s profoundly depressing. There are plenty of instances of bad cops, racist cops, and there are plenty of cops on a power trip beyond racist intent (see the countless times minority suspects are beaten by other minority officers. But this idea that they are all evil, that they can’t have humanity here that isn’t some underhanded propaganda motive, etc... Do they just want no police? What’s their idealistic alternative?
This puts too much emphasis on individual bad actors and doesn't give enough screentime to the effects of the broken system. In our hurry to point out good cops, we're too quick to say "that cop did that bad thing so is a bad cop, but we have no reason to believe the others aren't all good." But this system that leans on the political power of police unions, qualified immunity for bad acts, and criminal justice laws that have legitimized most any search and seizure if it can turn up an infraction have absolutely devastated the relationship between law enforcement and the black community.
A part of the answer here that would not make anyone happy but is probably necessary to turning this around is to increase officer compensation in exchange for increasing oversight as contracts are negotiated with police unions. Right now, the script is flipped. Cops don't make any money, but its damn hard for them to get in trouble until they are on camera killing a guy (and even then). So your candidate pool gets shallower while the cover for their bad acts increases - and then you're attracting as many candidates for the wrong reasons as the right ones. That culture seeps into the entire force, which turns into a positive feedback loop of terrible relations with the communities they are policing, and next thing you know, here we are.
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At every turn? I'm not sure it is even 10% of what he does I support, and certainly not at every turn. I supported his travel ban to China. I believe we should be working hard to reopen the economy where it makes sense. His changes to prison incarcerations was applauded by nearly everyone and should have been done by the previous administration. Beyond that, where am I supporting him? He is against what Sweden is doing, but I find it courageous and worth the risk. Overall his leadership with COVID has been dismal. I can say the same thing about governors and mayors, but when I do so you are upset that I'm not fully on board the team with blinders on. That's not how it works for me.
Good for George Will, I enjoy his baseball knowledge.
I'm sorry you have been conned by people here to think I am someone else, but a handful of you sure have. It goes in waves. I must have seen at least 10 people accused of being others here in the last few months.
Okey dokey, hoopy troll. Enjoy your emperor, President Tear Gas.
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Do the troops need to be requested? Not necessarily, says NPR article.
As to whether a state must request the presence of those military forces in the state, that's "not necessarily" the case, according to experts.
A section of the law (§251) says (emphasis ours):
"[T]he President may, upon the request of its legislature or of its governor if the legislature cannot be convened, call into Federal service such of the militia."
But the next section (§252) says:
"Whenever the President considers that unlawful obstructions, combinations, or assemblages, or rebellion against the authority of the United States, make it impracticable to enforce the laws of the United States in any State by the ordinary course of judicial proceedings, he may call into Federal service such of the militia of any State, and use such of the armed forces, as he considers necessary to enforce those laws or to suppress the rebellion."
https://www.npr.org/2020/06/01/867467714/what-is-the-insurrection-act-that-trump-is-threatening-to-invoke
https://twitter.com/steve_vladeck/status/1266752512373243904
https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a494995.pdf
Fantastic use of Google, Cheeks, but nothing you pasted or linked her contradicts what I wrote.
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This puts too much emphasis on individual bad actors and doesn't give enough screentime to the effects of the broken system. In our hurry to point out good cops, we're too quick to say "that cop did that bad thing so is a bad cop, but we have no reason to believe the others aren't all good." But this system that leans on the political power of police unions, qualified immunity for bad acts, and criminal justice laws that have legitimized most any search and seizure if it can turn up an infraction have absolutely devastated the relationship between law enforcement and the black community.
I disagree with the first portion. I dont think its carte blanche for all "non bad actors", but rather highlighting how nuanced and difficult this can be to parse out. There are bad cops, there are good cops, and there are cops who grapple with the difficulty of the job and the pressures of the peer group. Broad brush painting is a way for nothing to get done in this space. This isn't meant to be all Blue Lives Matter, but acknowledging there is still good in the system, among all the cancer and toxicity, is needed to try and change how it works.
I have no issue with the latter portion though.
A part of the answer here that would not make anyone happy but is probably necessary to turning this around is to increase officer compensation in exchange for increasing oversight as contracts are negotiated with police unions. Right now, the script is flipped. Cops don't make any money, but its damn hard for them to get in trouble until they are on camera killing a guy (and even then). So your candidate pool gets shallower while the cover for their bad acts increases - and then you're attracting as many candidates for the wrong reasons as the right ones. That culture seeps into the entire force, which turns into a positive feedback loop of terrible relations with the communities they are policing, and next thing you know, here we are.
This is patently untrue when looking at major metros that have been in question. By their late 20s, NYPD officers are making mid 80s as a base. CPD in the mid to high 70s. Milwaukee a bit lower but not much. Excellent benefits. Thats not counting overtime. There have been stories in both Chicago and NYC over the last 5 years about how many officers end up clearing 6 figures when all is said and done. They arent hedge funders, but they make more than acceptable incomes. These aren't lowly public servants making peanuts.
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Okey dokey, hoopy troll. Enjoy your emperor, President Tear Gas.
Fantastic use of Google, Cheeks, but nothing you pasted or linked her contradicts what I wrote.
Don't feed the troll.
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Yep. There is tons on here.
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Las Vegas cop in critical condition as he was shot in the back of his head today. A retired police chief was killed yesterday in St. Louis. An African American with 38 years on the job, retired as a captain and then named chief of police of Moline Acres.
https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/retired-police-captain-shot-to-death-at-st-louis-pawn-shop-in-slaying-caught-on/article_d482138c-0224-5393-bd87-9898bebb3fd1.html
Mr. Floyd would not have wanted this.
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Do you know what precedent is? Legal scholars can claim whatever they want is possible but the current precedent is that the only time the Insurrection Act has been invoked without local authority approval(state, county, or city) is during the Civil War which was.....wait for it....an Insurrection. So Trump could certainly invoke the Insurrection Act and order the army in but without precedent the army could refuse to obey the order as unlawful (maybe it is, maybe it isn't....again precedent hasn't been set in this scenario) and/or the local authorities could seek an immediate injunction with the SCOTUS which they would would expedite a hearing on. But no matter what the evaluation of your experts is proof of nothing. He can try but he does not necessarily have the power.
As the legal scholars have said throughout today, he has the power. If he chose to do it and Congress stepped in, the likely actions to stop him would be after his desired effect. I don't support the move, but legal scholars are not supporting the opinions here. As for precedent, the Insurrection Act has been used at least 12 times and a governor does not need to ask permission for the President to do this on his own. The text is clear.
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Las Vegas cop in critical condition as he was shot in the back of his head today. A retired police chief was killed yesterday in St. Louis. An African American with 38 years on the job, retired as a captain and then named chief of police of Moline Acres.
https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/retired-police-captain-shot-to-death-at-st-louis-pawn-shop-in-slaying-caught-on/article_d482138c-0224-5393-bd87-9898bebb3fd1.html
Mr. Floyd would not have wanted this.
No sh*t
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No sh*t
Both sides
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As the legal scholars have said throughout today, he has the power. If he chose to do it and Congress stepped in, the likely actions to stop him would be after his desired effect. I don't support the move, but legal scholars are not supporting the opinions here. As for precedent, the Insurrection Act has been used at least 12 times and a governor does not need to ask permission for the President to do this on his own. The text is clear.
Just what every Tea Partier wanted - a militant federal government. I'll wait patiently for them all to stand up for their deeply held belief system that was definitely not angst at a black guy taking 'their spot' in the big house.
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Military aircraft used against Americans. Soldiers with bayonets for use against Americans.
If and when any member of the military kills an American, all bets are off. I pray that our military leaders are smart enough to not allow this, but the Defense sec. is a militant Trump toady.
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The video clips on reddit of unprovoked attacks make me sad
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When you've lost Pat Robertson...
@RightWingWatch: Pat Robertson tells Trump that his response to the George Floyd protests "isn't cool." https://twitter.com/RightWingWatch/status/1267891912910012417/video/1
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https://adw.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/06/060220-ADW-Press-Release.pdf
The Archbishop of DC is not happy with Trump and the Knights of Columbus.
According to the National Catholic Reporter, the head of the Knights once worked for Jesse Helms.
KofC is home based here in New Haven. They are the first high rise you see getting off I95 & I91 downtown. They are all about getting Father McGinley sainted for founding them. Had two friends work at the HQ previously and both said it was the worst job they every had. Extremely by the book strict about everything.
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Military aircraft used against Americans. Soldiers with bayonets for use against Americans.
If and when any member of the military kills an American, all bets are off. I pray that our military leaders are smart enough to not allow this, but the Defense sec. is a militant Trump toady.
Secretary of Defense has to issue orders through the Combantant Commands, for the continental US that is USNORTHCOM commanded by Terrence O'Shaughnessy, a Viper pilot(Keefe may know him) and while I wouldn't want to be him I can't imagine he would follow an order to deploy combat units on US soil over the objection of the local authorities.
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KofC is home based here in New Haven. They are the first high rise you see getting off I95 & I91 downtown. They are all about getting Father McGinley sainted for founding them. Had two friends work at the HQ previously and both said it was the worst job they every had. Extremely by the book strict about everything.
One of new havens many Brutalist buildings. I find it to be quite depressing, unlike Barbican in London.
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Secretary of Defense has to issue orders through the Combantant Commands, for the continental US that is USNORTHCOM commanded by Terrence O'Shaughnessy, a Viper pilot(Keefe may know him) and while I wouldn't want to be him I can't imagine he would follow an order to deploy combat units on US soil over the objection of the local authorities.
I imagine Jockey may be speaking about this:
@DCGuard1802: DCNG Commanding General has directed an investigation into the actions of our rotary aviation assets June 1. Our priority is the safety of our Guardsmen who support civil authorities. We are dedicated to ensuring the safety of citizens and their right to protest.
Speaking of the Secretary of Defense, should we be happy that he now realizes what a clusterf*ck yesterday's photo op was, or concerned that this was the best excuse he could come up with?
@NBCNews: NEW: Defense Sec. Esper asserts to @NBCNews that he had no advance notice before Pres. Trump led him and other officials to St. John’s Episcopal Church for a photo-op: “I thought I was going to do two things: to see some damage and to talk to the troops" https://nbcnews.to/2XW6unr
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This is also no bueno.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2020/06/02/helicopter-protest-dc/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2020/06/02/helicopter-protest-dc/)
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Don't feed the troll.
Good advice. He eats with his mouth open and it’s kinda disgusting!
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One of new havens many Brutalist buildings. I find it to be quite depressing, unlike Barbican in London.
Barbican works cause it’s so well done and it’s kind of an anomaly in a city/area without tons of brutalist structures. But if you get somewhere with tons of brutalist buildings, like NH, it’s awful to look at
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Yikes.
@will_doran: Video shows Wake County deputies walking toward a queer bar in Raleigh and shooting at the owner, yelling “the game is over”
Deputies defended their actions, saying he had been handing out water and first aid to protesters and needed to be stopped. https://trib.al/9Pmlfdj
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Barbican works cause it’s so well done and it’s kind of an anomaly in a city/area without tons of brutalist structures. But if you get somewhere with tons of brutalist buildings, like NH, it’s awful to look at
For me it’s the fact the barbican has life. Apartments, flowers, etc. new haven it’s all museums, office buildings and parking garages.
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Don't feed the troll.
Banhammer the troll sockpuppeting to circumvent his most recent ban.
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This is patently untrue when looking at major metros that have been in question. By their late 20s, NYPD officers are making mid 80s as a base. CPD in the mid to high 70s. Milwaukee a bit lower but not much. Excellent benefits. Thats not counting overtime. There have been stories in both Chicago and NYC over the last 5 years about how many officers end up clearing 6 figures when all is said and done. They arent hedge funders, but they make more than acceptable incomes. These aren't lowly public servants making peanuts.
Well I'll be darned. That's what I get for not doing my homework. I have seen it suggested that a key way to get oversight reforms through would be (at least in part) in the union negotiating process. But I made dumb assumptions about income levels to get there. With numbers like those, there may not be much money to use as a bargaining chip.
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Strange that the newest home grown terror group wasn't actually responsible. (Not that there really is an organization). Nice to see the FBI still actually doing their job.
The FBI Finds ‘No Intel Indicating Antifa Involvement’ in Sunday’s Violence
https://www.thenation.com/article/activism/antifa-trump-fbi/
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Strange that the newest home grown terror group wasn't actually responsible. (Not that there really is an organization). Nice to see the FBI still actually doing their job.
The FBI Finds ‘No Intel Indicating Antifa Involvement’ in Sunday’s Violence
https://www.thenation.com/article/activism/antifa-trump-fbi/
Yeah, but The Deep State controls the FBI.
Yikes.
@will_doran: Video shows Wake County deputies walking toward a queer bar in Raleigh and shooting at the owner, yelling “the game is over”
Deputies defended their actions, saying he had been handing out water and first aid to protesters and needed to be stopped. https://trib.al/9Pmlfdj
Oh no! Handing out water!! No wonder the cops were shooting!!!!!
Trump's America, a welcoming place for all.
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For me it’s the fact the barbican has life. Apartments, flowers, etc. new haven it’s all museums, office buildings and parking garages.
Agreed. The water features, especially, within Barbican have always moved me.
Well I'll be darned. That's what I get for not doing my homework. I have seen it suggested that a key way to get oversight reforms through would be (at least in part) in the union negotiating process. But I made dumb assumptions about income levels to get there. With numbers like those, there may not be much money to use as a bargaining chip.
All good. But yea, there are some union pushes that they could still work, but pure income levels aren’t one.
My former uncle (via divorce) is a retired CPD Lieutenant and most of my cousins’ family on his side are CPD. He’s been very comfortable financially, even now in retirement. Most of the family live in Ravenswood and his cousins drive 3 Series cause they easily clear 100K with overtime.
That’s not a dig on them at all, it’s an incredible tough and stressful job and I don’t bemoan their comp, but I certainly don’t think they are struggling financially
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Banhammer the troll sockpuppeting to circumvent his most recent ban.
Always seemed to be the appropriate measure considering he trolls his way into a new ban.
At least have him make up a fake sobbing story of death and how he will be better next time.
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One of new havens many Brutalist buildings. I find it to be quite depressing, unlike Barbican in London.
My wife, the art teacher, refers to Butalism as Disgusting Soviet Style Buildings.
My kid just finished a 20th Century Art class where Brutalism was discussed at some point. While working from home, she asked my wife why anyone would want to build anything in that style and my wife said that "at the time it seemed contemporary, modern and different".
Damn, the style did not age well. I think it's the main reason the New Haven Mausoleum Coliseum was torn down.
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Cuomo threatens to displace De Blasio for his incompetence with the peaceful protests.. Been a bad few months for New York’s leaders.
https://thepostmillennial.com/breaking-ny-governor-cuomo-threatens-to-displace-mayor-de-blasio-and-bring-in-the-national-guard
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Do you know what precedent is? Legal scholars can claim whatever they want is possible but the current precedent is that the only time the Insurrection Act has been invoked without local authority approval(state, county, or city) is during the Civil War which was.....wait for it....an Insurrection. So Trump could certainly invoke the Insurrection Act and order the army in but without precedent the army could refuse to obey the order as unlawful (maybe it is, maybe it isn't....again precedent hasn't been set in this scenario) and/or the local authorities could seek an immediate injunction with the SCOTUS which they would would expedite a hearing on. But no matter what the evaluation of your experts is proof of nothing. He can try but he does not necessarily have the power.
Eng this statement by Esper makes me think the military (below the civilian leaders) thinks similarly about This as you do. You don’t contradict Trump This publicly unless you have an angry workforce.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/03/politics/esper-insurrection-act-protests/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/03/politics/esper-insurrection-act-protests/index.html)
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Police chief here walking with peaceful protestors today.
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Eng this statement by Esper makes me think the military (below the civilian leaders) thinks similarly about This as you do. You don’t contradict Trump This publicly unless you have an angry workforce.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/03/politics/esper-insurrection-act-protests/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/03/politics/esper-insurrection-act-protests/index.html)
These last 3 1/2 years, these kinds of statements often have been the first step in a Trump underling getting the heave-ho. President Pandemic likes bootlickers and yes-men.
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I imagine Jockey may be speaking about this:
@DCGuard1802: DCNG Commanding General has directed an investigation into the actions of our rotary aviation assets June 1. Our priority is the safety of our Guardsmen who support civil authorities. We are dedicated to ensuring the safety of citizens and their right to protest.
Speaking of the Secretary of Defense, should we be happy that he now realizes what a clusterf*ck yesterday's photo op was, or concerned that this was the best excuse he could come up with?
@NBCNews: NEW: Defense Sec. Esper asserts to @NBCNews that he had no advance notice before Pres. Trump led him and other officials to St. John’s Episcopal Church for a photo-op: “I thought I was going to do two things: to see some damage and to talk to the troops" https://nbcnews.to/2XW6unr
I was talking more about the prez wanting the military to get involved. Once that occurs, anything can happen. It is hard to control a fluid situation.
I was happy (and surprised) to see the Defense Secretary sort of Pooh-Pooh the idea today.
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I was talking more about the prez wanting the military to get involved. Once that occurs, anything can happen. It is hard to control a fluid situation.
I was happy (and surprised) to see the Defense Secretary sort of Pooh-Pooh the idea today.
This guy?
Defense Secretary Mark Esper says he 'didn't know' where he was going when he walked with Trump through a park aggressively cleared of protesters moments before
Esper now admits he knew where he was going after the press reminded him he was on tape telling people where they were going.
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This guy?
Defense Secretary Mark Esper says he 'didn't know' where he was going when he walked with Trump through a park aggressively cleared of protesters moments before
Esper now admits he knew where he was going after the press reminded him he was on tape telling people where they were going.
If he had claimed it was just “locker room talk,” a large segment of the base would have bought it.
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I was talking more about the prez wanting the military to get involved. Once that occurs, anything can happen. It is hard to control a fluid situation.
I was happy (and surprised) to see the Defense Secretary sort of Pooh-Pooh the idea today.
Lots of rumors that senior military brass was upset what they saw the other night.
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Lots of rumors that senior military brass was upset what they saw the other night.
Yes, and I can't imagine that many of the troops ordered to take part in that mess signed up for the military so they could tear gas and push around fellow Americans. I feel bad for them as well.
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Who/what group were the armed security around DC/white house yesterday?
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Who/what group were the armed security around DC/white house yesterday?
Wouldn’t be surprised if it was Blackwater or other similar private military-style security
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Who/what group were the armed security around DC/white house yesterday?
Unless things have changed, it's been a combination of national guardsman and national parks police, with a smattering of secret service.
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This guy?
Defense Secretary Mark Esper says he 'didn't know' where he was going when he walked with Trump through a park aggressively cleared of protesters moments before
Esper now admits he knew where he was going after the press reminded him he was on tape telling people where they were going.
Yup. That’s why I put “(and surprised)” in my post. He is just another Trump lackey.
I’m guessing he heard from other generals (probably mostly retired ones) warning him that what he was considering was wrong.
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Lots of rumors that senior military brass was upset what they saw the other night.
I just read this comment after my last post. That is what I was trying to say
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Another lie-fest and shyte-show. Stunner.
How about Trump saying, "I am an ally of all peaceful protesters," about 10 seconds before he sent in the troops to smoke out the peaceful protesters?
And I guess that doesn't apply to NFL players taking a knee, whom he saved mercilessly -- and with repeated racist undertones -- for weeks and weeks and weeks.
Or maybe he just believed that "kneeling while black" is not peaceful.
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Marquette connection ... Juan Toscano Anderson is leading a "Walk in Unity" march in Oakland today. Steph Curry, Klay Thompson and Kevon Looney marching with him.
Warriors social media live-tweeting it
https://twitter.com/warriors/status/1268263243010543623
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Well this is something.
https://twitter.com/ariehkovler/status/1268268724693467136?s=20
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Well this is something.
https://twitter.com/ariehkovler/status/1268268724693467136?s=20
Remember when asking for Dijon mustard and wearing a tan suit were scandals? The good ol' days.
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Charges against Chauvin upgraded to Second Degree Murder, and three others charged as accessories to murder.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/03/us/live-george-floyd-protests-today.html
I kind of doubt that happens without the marches.
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Charges against Chauvin upgraded to Second Degree Murder, and three others charged as accessories to murder.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/03/us/live-george-floyd-protests-today.html
I kind of doubt that happens without the marches.
I think Lane gets off or gets some deal with a lesser charge due to his suggestion to change the position. The others I think will have a tough time.
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Well this is something.
https://twitter.com/ariehkovler/status/1268268724693467136?s=20
The White House spreading fake news? No way!
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https://www.gq.com/story/deray-mckesson-interview-8-cant-wait (https://www.gq.com/story/deray-mckesson-interview-8-cant-wait)
Potentially a place to start, a data driven analysis of reforms that have shown to be effective in reducing use of force outcomes in police forces (team is led by DeRay Mckesson who I only recently became aware of, but I find to have a very compelling concept). Basically, it is 8 key reforms that A) mayors/police chiefs can do on their own and/or negotiate into their next union contract B) is proven to reduce police violence and C) actually has fiscal benefit.
Ban chokeholds and strangleholds
Require de-escalation
Require warning before shooting
Exhaust all other means before shooting
Duty to intervene and stop excessive force by other officers
Ban shooting at moving vehicles
Require use-of-force continuum
Require comprehensive reporting each time an officer uses forces or threatens to do so
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https://www.gq.com/story/deray-mckesson-interview-8-cant-wait (https://www.gq.com/story/deray-mckesson-interview-8-cant-wait)
Potentially a place to start, a data driven analysis of reforms that have shown to be effective in reducing use of force outcomes in police forces (team is led by DeRay Mckesson who I only recently became aware of, but I find to have a very compelling concept). Basically, it is 8 key reforms that A) mayors/police chiefs can do on their own and/or negotiate into their next union contract B) is proven to reduce police violence and C) actually has fiscal benefit.
Ban chokeholds and strangleholds
Require de-escalation
Require warning before shooting
Exhaust all other means before shooting
Duty to intervene and stop excessive force by other officers
Ban shooting at moving vehicles
Require use-of-force continuum
Require comprehensive reporting each time an officer uses forces or threatens to do so
I haven’t seen this before, but B and C alone should make this a no-brainer. The only plausible objection I can see - and one I didn’t see addressed in the article - is that the changes could make officers so tentative that it puts them or bystanders in jeopardy. Given that Tucson and SF have already implemented the eight reforms, they should be able to find data on that.
Loved this quote: “ Here’s the thing: At the minimum, the rules by which officers can kill you should be public.“ Yep.
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Well this is something.
https://twitter.com/ariehkovler/status/1268268724693467136?s=20
No. “Something” would be if Trump went one day without lying.
I guarantee “something” will never, ever happen.
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https://www.gq.com/story/deray-mckesson-interview-8-cant-wait (https://www.gq.com/story/deray-mckesson-interview-8-cant-wait)
Potentially a place to start, a data driven analysis of reforms that have shown to be effective in reducing use of force outcomes in police forces (team is led by DeRay Mckesson who I only recently became aware of, but I find to have a very compelling concept). Basically, it is 8 key reforms that A) mayors/police chiefs can do on their own and/or negotiate into their next union contract B) is proven to reduce police violence and C) actually has fiscal benefit.
Ban chokeholds and strangleholds
Require de-escalation
Require warning before shooting
Exhaust all other means before shooting
Duty to intervene and stop excessive force by other officers
Ban shooting at moving vehicles
Require use-of-force continuum
Require comprehensive reporting each time an officer uses forces or threatens to do so
This is excellent. As Gooooooooooooooooo said, it will be interesting to see how things work where they're trying to implement it.
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https://www.gq.com/story/deray-mckesson-interview-8-cant-wait (https://www.gq.com/story/deray-mckesson-interview-8-cant-wait)
Potentially a place to start, a data driven analysis of reforms that have shown to be effective in reducing use of force outcomes in police forces (team is led by DeRay Mckesson who I only recently became aware of, but I find to have a very compelling concept). Basically, it is 8 key reforms that A) mayors/police chiefs can do on their own and/or negotiate into their next union contract B) is proven to reduce police violence and C) actually has fiscal benefit.
Ban chokeholds and strangleholds
Require de-escalation
Require warning before shooting
Exhaust all other means before shooting
Duty to intervene and stop excessive force by other officers
Ban shooting at moving vehicles
Require use-of-force continuum
Require comprehensive reporting each time an officer uses forces or threatens to do so
More here:
https://twitter.com/samswey/status/1180655701271732224?s=19
For those who are interested in research-based solutions to stop police violence, here’s what you need to know - based on the facts and data. A thread. (1/x)
This is a lengthy thread on research-based solutions. It is comprehensive.
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I found this article interesting. It is written from a conservative point of view, but I think it brings up valid concerns we all should have. I do take issue that we don't have a racism problem, we do; but it is just not blacks that are victims of police abuse.
https://pjmedia.com/columns/megan-fox/2020/06/02/we-dont-have-a-racism-problem-we-have-a-deep-state-problem-the-hideous-police-killing-of-duncan-lemp-n484233
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https://www.gq.com/story/deray-mckesson-interview-8-cant-wait (https://www.gq.com/story/deray-mckesson-interview-8-cant-wait)
Potentially a place to start, a data driven analysis of reforms that have shown to be effective in reducing use of force outcomes in police forces (team is led by DeRay Mckesson who I only recently became aware of, but I find to have a very compelling concept). Basically, it is 8 key reforms that A) mayors/police chiefs can do on their own and/or negotiate into their next union contract B) is proven to reduce police violence and C) actually has fiscal benefit.
Ban chokeholds and strangleholds
Require de-escalation
Require warning before shooting
Exhaust all other means before shooting
Duty to intervene and stop excessive force by other officers
Ban shooting at moving vehicles
Require use-of-force continuum
Require comprehensive reporting each time an officer uses forces or threatens to do so
I get it, but reforms will only make a difference if they are followed and only if the bad actors that don't follow them are held accountable. Have the 3 other officers been charged with any mis conduct yet?
I don't know too many police officers who would agree to those. Would an armed suspect also be required to give a warning before they shoot at a police officer?
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https://www.gq.com/story/deray-mckesson-interview-8-cant-wait (https://www.gq.com/story/deray-mckesson-interview-8-cant-wait)
Potentially a place to start, a data driven analysis of reforms that have shown to be effective in reducing use of force outcomes in police forces (team is led by DeRay Mckesson who I only recently became aware of, but I find to have a very compelling concept). Basically, it is 8 key reforms that A) mayors/police chiefs can do on their own and/or negotiate into their next union contract B) is proven to reduce police violence and C) actually has fiscal benefit.
Ban chokeholds and strangleholds
Require de-escalation
Require warning before shooting
Exhaust all other means before shooting
Duty to intervene and stop excessive force by other officers
Ban shooting at moving vehicles
Require use-of-force continuum
Require comprehensive reporting each time an officer uses forces or threatens to do so
This is a good list, and a lot of these policies do exist at a lot of departments ... specifically a ban on chokeholds, the duty to intervene and use-of-force continuum.
The bigger problem isn't so much the existence of such polices, but the training and enforcement of them. Eric Garner, for example, was killed by a chokehold maneuver that had been banned by the NYPD more than 20 years earlier. Yet NYPD records showed that up until Garner's death, officers rarely were disciplined for using chokeholds and when they were, it was not severe.
Policies are necessary, but if there's no training or teeth behind them, then they do little good. The training shouldn't be too hard, but I don't know how you change the discipline part but through a long, difficult culture change. Easier said than done.
There's also now a renewed push on Capitol Hill to remove or reduce qualified immunity from police, which essentially protects them from civil penalties/lawsuits when they violate citizens' rights. The reasoning behind such policies has some merit - none of us want police out on the job making difficult, split-second decisions while fearing a lawsuit. But the near-total immunity they have now makes them practically unaccountable. There needs to be a way to find a balance between protecting cops from frivolous lawsuits over routine actions and giving citizens a chance for redress over violations of their rights.
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This is a good list, and a lot of these policies do exist at a lot of departments ... specifically a ban on chokeholds, the duty to intervene and use-of-force continuum.
The bigger problem isn't so much the existence of such polices, but the training and enforcement of them. Eric Garner, for example, was killed by a chokehold maneuver that had been banned by the NYPD more than 20 years earlier. Yet NYPD records showed that up until Garner's death, officers rarely were disciplined for using chokeholds and when they were, it was not severe.
Policies are necessary, but if there's no training or teeth behind them, then they do little good. The training shouldn't be too hard, but I don't know how you change the discipline part but through a long, difficult culture change. Easier said than done.
There's also now a renewed push on Capitol Hill to remove or reduce qualified immunity from police, which essentially protects them from civil penalties/lawsuits when they violate citizens' rights. The reasoning behind such policies has some merit - none of us want police out on the job making difficult, split-second decisions while fearing a lawsuit. But the near-total immunity they have now makes them practically unaccountable. There needs to be a way to find a balance between protecting cops from frivolous lawsuits over routine actions and giving citizens a chance for redress over violations of their rights.
Would taking away qualified immunity help take the burden of the city/county/state for lawsuits?
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I found this article interesting. It is written from a conservative point of view, but I think it brings up valid concerns we all should have. I do take issue that we don't have a racism problem, we do; but it is just not blacks that are victims of police abuse.
https://pjmedia.com/columns/megan-fox/2020/06/02/we-dont-have-a-racism-problem-we-have-a-deep-state-problem-the-hideous-police-killing-of-duncan-lemp-n484233
Some good points spoiled by right-wing conspiracy theory, white grievance and ultimately terrible conclusions.
Bad policing absolutely harms white people in this country as well, but it's not because of the deep state. It's because our police officers are inadequately trained and exist within a culture that allows and even encourages mistreatment.
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Would taking away qualified immunity help take the burden of the city/county/state for lawsuits?
Probably not. Most police receive some level of indemnification through their CBA for actions that occur within the scope of their duties.
Two thoughts on that.
First, that isn't necessarily a bad thing. It acts as an incentive to hire good people and train them well, and punishes agencies that fail to do so and fail to discipline/remove bad cops.
Second, within the scope of duties is important. Committing a crime, for example, would not be considered within the scope of a cop's duties, so an employer isn't necessarily liable in that instance (unless, of course, the employer knows he/she is a bad cops and does nothing about it).
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I saw someone ask why police don't use the same rubber bullets they use on peaceful protesters on the unarmed black people they decide to kill rather than suffocating them to death? It would still be completely insane to bust up a man's face for using counterfeit money, but at least it wouldn't be murder. A step in the right direction?
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Good lord. that's secret service protocol to move the president to the bunker or AF1 any time there is a physical threat to the president---any president.
They didn't allow GWB to land on 9/11 after he left the school he was at, and Cheney was taken to the bunker.
https://www.history.com/news/september-11-attacks-shootdown-order-cheney-bush (https://www.history.com/news/september-11-attacks-shootdown-order-cheney-bush)
But OMB ran away is the alternative narrative.
Time to update the narrative.
https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/500882-trump-claims-he-visited-bunker-briefly-during-the-day-to-inspect-it (https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/500882-trump-claims-he-visited-bunker-briefly-during-the-day-to-inspect-it)
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I am comforted knowing POTUS is so on top of things that he remembers to check out the bunker on a Friday night for future reference.
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I’ll put this here instead of the main board, but this is AWESOME from Juan. Talk about already using your platform for good
https://www.sfchronicle.com/sports/article/Stephen-Curry-Klay-Thompson-attend-Oakland-15315487.php
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I’ll put this here instead of the main board, but this is AWESOME from Juan. Talk about already using your platform for good
https://www.sfchronicle.com/sports/article/Stephen-Curry-Klay-Thompson-attend-Oakland-15315487.php
I agree! Go forth and set the world on fire Juan!
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I agree! Go forth and set the world on fire Juan!
Well not literally...please.
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In Las Vegas, FBI Joint Terrorism Task Force Arrests:
https://twitter.com/Tom_Winter/status/1268316943074897921?s=19
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In Las Vegas, FBI Joint Terrorism Task Force Arrests:
https://twitter.com/Tom_Winter/status/1268316943074897921?s=19
Is boogaloo that antifa thing we keep hearing about?
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Is boogaloo that antifa thing we keep hearing about?
.
I know your post was in jest...but in case anyone didn't scroll down for the full Boogaloo description...it's well...it's something alright.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1224231?__twitter_impression=true
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Is boogaloo that antifa thing we keep hearing about?
Antifa 2: Electric Boogaloo
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Houston's police chief tears Trump a new one.
https://www.aol.com/article/news/2020/06/03/houston-police-chief-rips-donald-trumps-violent-rhetoric-keep-your-mouth-shut/24509126/?fbclid=IwAR0ryRpA1Wl_5tYZ2Lhm0tjc97NY_7xzGkyhBCYzwqOsXLzZ4FcLZQka7sM
Houston police chief Art Acevedo on Tuesday ripped President Donald Trump’s divisive rhetoric on the protests that have erupted nationwide following the death of George Floyd.
“Let me just say this to the president of the United States on behalf of the police chiefs in this country. Please, if you don’t have anything constructive to say, keep your mouth shut. Because you’re putting men and women in their early 20s at risk,” Acevedo told CNN’s Christiane Amanpour.
“It’s not about dominating, it’s about winning hearts and minds,” the police chief continued, referencing Trump’s order earlier this week that governors should “dominate” anti-racism protesters.
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https://www.wisn.com/article/former-mu-star-joins-in-justice-for-george-protest/32761419
Good for Sacar.
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Saw some post by a black woman basically reading off George Floyd’s criminal record and saying he’s not a martyr because he’s not a good person. I find it incredibly ignorant and totally missing the point (it’s not just one single person that’s being effected here), but it got me thinking about how people always try to justify murdering unarmed black people (I know she said she isn’t justifying it, but anytime you say, “I’m not saying he deserved to be murdered but...” and then list the bad things a person has done it’s kind of like saying “I don’t mean to offend you but...” and then saying your offensive thought), why is it that in a case like Trayvon Martin his social media posts with a gun make him a “thug” but when a white person posts pictures with their assault rifles they’re “patriotic?”
Maybe that’s why cheeks has been all about getting your guns ready. If you aren’t posting selfies with your guns are you even patriotic?
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https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/06/james-mattis-denounces-trump-protests-militarization/612640/
General James Mattis finally spoke out today, and wow, it was something. He absolutely destroyed everything about Trump. This decorated general who is one of the most respected military men among both the Brass and the enlisted men even compared Trump to Hitler. Between his letter of resignation and this piece, there will be some advanced courses in American History with these two documents as the centerpiece.
Trump tweeted tonight that he fired Mattis. Mattis resigned after Trump stabbed the Kurds in the back and we have the document to prove it. He also tweeted that he gave Mattis the nickname Mad Dog. Everyone knows this was a longtime nickname that was in place years before Trump ever heard of him. Why this creep lies about such obvious truths is beyond understanding.
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https://www.instagram.com/p/CA9MXi7no3r/?igshid=1vpnrm77f6pu6
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https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/06/james-mattis-denounces-trump-protests-militarization/612640/
General James Mattis finally spoke out today, and wow, it was something. He absolutely destroyed everything about Trump. This decorated general who is one of the most respected military men among both the Brass and the enlisted men even compared Trump to Hitler. Between his letter of resignation and this piece, there will be some advanced courses in American History with these two documents as the centerpiece.
Proud of Mattis. As bad a week as it has been in so many ways, one of the biggest silver linings is that leaders in all walks of life and representing all ideologies are calling out a dictator-wannabe who is trying to steal the soul and crush the spirit of our great democratic republic.
Think about how amazing yesterday was alone: Trump's current defense secretary said it was dead wrong of his boss to even consider using the Insurrection Act; and Trump's first defense secretary called his former boss "the first president in my lifetime who does not try to unite the American people—does not even pretend to try. Instead he tries to divide us."
History is going to reward those who take a stand against tyranny, and will not be kind either to the tyrant or to his enablers.
Oh, and FWIW, our own keefe is a very big Mattis fan who wrote at length about how happy he was that Trump had appointed a man of such honor, dignity and competence.
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Please note, none of what I'm about to type in any way exonerates Trump or decreases the vileness of his character.......
I've been thinking a lot about what comes next, where do things go from here and I realized we are spending a lot of time focused on Trump which in this moment I think is misplaced. Listen, in a bizarro universe Trump is a uniter and not a divider trying to bring people together at the national level. That just isn't reality, but it also seems to provide cover for those who could also make meaningful change without Trump involved. If we all agree that systemically there is an issue with the policing in this country, almost none of that system has to do with the federal level. Yes, the FBI, ICE, ATF, etc are federal police organizations but the majority of the concern is the policing within the local communities. Why are we not focusing on the local government leadership? The pressure should be brought to bear on governors, attorneys general, mayors, sheriffs, and police chiefs (especially the last three). It strikes me that the protests have done a very good job of drawing attention to the issues but now is the time to pivot to actual change and not spend it spinning away at yet another Trump is bad fight.
So, what do the next couple of weeks look like to put pressure on the local authorities to enact change?
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The growing number of traditionally conservative military and law enforcement officials speaking of unity over divisiveness gives these protests a very different feel from the others. Strong voices like General Mattis and Chief Acevedo might finally get us to address the systemic racism that pervades our society.
And I agree with Keefe - General Mattis is definitely a man of honor, dignity and competence. I would add empathy and compassion.
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Please note, none of what I'm about to type in any way exonerates Trump or decreases the vileness of his character.......
I've been thinking a lot about what comes next, where do things go from here and I realized we are spending a lot of time focused on Trump which in this moment I think is misplaced. Listen, in a bizarro universe Trump is a uniter and not a divider trying to bring people together at the national level. That just isn't reality, but it also seems to provide cover for those who could also make meaningful change without Trump involved. If we all agree that systemically there is an issue with the policing in this country, almost none of that system has to do with the federal level. Yes, the FBI, ICE, ATF, etc are federal police organizations but the majority of the concern is the policing within the local communities. Why are we not focusing on the local government leadership? The pressure should be brought to bear on governors, attorneys general, mayors, sheriffs, and police chiefs (especially the last three). It strikes me that the protests have done a very good job of drawing attention to the issues but now is the time to pivot to actual change and not spend it spinning away at yet another Trump is bad fight.
So, what do the next couple of weeks look like to put pressure on the local authorities to enact change?
Sure it doesn't help that trump had the big police chiefs convention and invited Bill Kroll to speak. Stuff like that is why he must be included. Now you do make a great point, racism in policing isn't a federal policy but again what is we're the Obama era guidlines to hold police accountable. I think there's plenty to be done on the federal side as well.
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Yes, much like mayors and governors stepped up during the pandemic to fill the vacuum of leadership created at the federal level, this is another opportunity for them to address on an ad hoc basis one of the most vexing problems of this or any other time. And when they are done, they can replace Jared in bringing peace to the middle east.
Seriously, though, governors and mayors are going to have to lead. And if they are smart, they will be communicating and collaborating.
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Please note, none of what I'm about to type in any way exonerates Trump or decreases the vileness of his character.......
I've been thinking a lot about what comes next, where do things go from here and I realized we are spending a lot of time focused on Trump which in this moment I think is misplaced. Listen, in a bizarro universe Trump is a uniter and not a divider trying to bring people together at the national level. That just isn't reality, but it also seems to provide cover for those who could also make meaningful change without Trump involved. If we all agree that systemically there is an issue with the policing in this country, almost none of that system has to do with the federal level. Yes, the FBI, ICE, ATF, etc are federal police organizations but the majority of the concern is the policing within the local communities. Why are we not focusing on the local government leadership? The pressure should be brought to bear on governors, attorneys general, mayors, sheriffs, and police chiefs (especially the last three). It strikes me that the protests have done a very good job of drawing attention to the issues but now is the time to pivot to actual change and not spend it spinning away at yet another Trump is bad fight.
So, what do the next couple of weeks look like to put pressure on the local authorities to enact change?
If word could get out more broadly about the eight-step plan that you posted about yesterday, that would seem to be a good start. As you noted, that could be implemented at the local level.
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Please note, none of what I'm about to type in any way exonerates Trump or decreases the vileness of his character.......
I've been thinking a lot about what comes next, where do things go from here and I realized we are spending a lot of time focused on Trump which in this moment I think is misplaced. Listen, in a bizarro universe Trump is a uniter and not a divider trying to bring people together at the national level. That just isn't reality, but it also seems to provide cover for those who could also make meaningful change without Trump involved. If we all agree that systemically there is an issue with the policing in this country, almost none of that system has to do with the federal level. Yes, the FBI, ICE, ATF, etc are federal police organizations but the majority of the concern is the policing within the local communities. Why are we not focusing on the local government leadership? The pressure should be brought to bear on governors, attorneys general, mayors, sheriffs, and police chiefs (especially the last three). It strikes me that the protests have done a very good job of drawing attention to the issues but now is the time to pivot to actual change and not spend it spinning away at yet another Trump is bad fight.
So, what do the next couple of weeks look like to put pressure on the local authorities to enact change?
I think we are already starting to see that change. It's not swift or monumental, but incremental yet still meaningful. It's not going to be about panels or laws. It's going to come though simple and concrete actions. I also think there has been a change in the narrative. I have friends who were upset when Kaepernick kneeled and tried to downplay the issue, who are now retroactively supportive and understanding. More people realize the problem than two weeks ago. More people are sympathetic than two weeks ago.
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Please note, none of what I'm about to type in any way exonerates Trump or decreases the vileness of his character.......
I've been thinking a lot about what comes next, where do things go from here and I realized we are spending a lot of time focused on Trump which in this moment I think is misplaced. Listen, in a bizarro universe Trump is a uniter and not a divider trying to bring people together at the national level. That just isn't reality, but it also seems to provide cover for those who could also make meaningful change without Trump involved. If we all agree that systemically there is an issue with the policing in this country, almost none of that system has to do with the federal level. Yes, the FBI, ICE, ATF, etc are federal police organizations but the majority of the concern is the policing within the local communities. Why are we not focusing on the local government leadership? The pressure should be brought to bear on governors, attorneys general, mayors, sheriffs, and police chiefs (especially the last three). It strikes me that the protests have done a very good job of drawing attention to the issues but now is the time to pivot to actual change and not spend it spinning away at yet another Trump is bad fight.
So, what do the next couple of weeks look like to put pressure on the local authorities to enact change?
I think you are over-emphasizing the "police violence" angle. The outcry was catalyzed by Floyd's death, and the deaths of many others recently. But it is about the systemic inequities that has suppressed generation after generation. That isn't going to be fixed by local government leadership. It has to be an international movement.
That is why you see marches around the world. A lot of people are fed up with how we treat a sizable population of our communities, treating them like "others" that are a danger or threat to "us". The movement and protests are about breaking down those labels, and realizing that we are one people. "They" are "us" and it is time we do everything in our power to ensure that their is equity, and fairness, and likely most importantly compassion and trust.
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Ft. Lauderdale police officer that shoved a seated female protestor has been reviewed by Internal Affairs 79 times in 3.5 years for using force.
https://amp.miamiherald.com/news/local/crime/article243234261.html?__twitter_impression=true
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Thirty years ago, in this interview with Playboy, Trump praises China for Tiananmen Square.
https://www.playboy.com/read/playboy-interview-donald-trump-1990?fbclid=IwAR3LqO-tLfy9a7cWteDhE8Afo8HdQEYrAoOZg7mr-FBzicJeStGJLeE5Uqg
He also criticizes Gorbachev for not being ruthless enough, and mocks Bush Sr. for wanting a kinder, gentler America.
He said a lot of other ridiculous crap: Jesus and Mother Teresa had "far greater egos than you will ever understand"; patting himself on the back for his newspaper ads urging the death penalty for the Central Park 5, who weren't even charged yet and who ended up being exonerated by DNA evidence; and not wanting to ever be president because he wanted to focus on things like his foundation, which a couple years ago was forced to disband because he was illegally using funds meant for charity, including on a portrait of himself.
But it was his "I'm the toughest guy in the world and just about everybody else is a wimp" schtick that really resonates now, 30 years later. Very typical talk for a guy who has spent his life bullying others, a coward who wouldn't fight for America himself but would use his militia to attack a group of peaceful protesters just so he could stage a photo-op.
President Bone Spur wants his own Tiananmen Square, his own Kent State. That'd show the ba$tard$!
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Thirty years ago, in this interview with Playboy, Trump praises China for Tiananmen Square.
https://www.playboy.com/read/playboy-interview-donald-trump-1990?fbclid=IwAR3LqO-tLfy9a7cWteDhE8Afo8HdQEYrAoOZg7mr-FBzicJeStGJLeE5Uqg
He also criticizes Gorbachev for not being ruthless enough, and mocks Bush Sr. for wanting a kinder, gentler America.
He said a lot of other ridiculous crap: Jesus and Mother Teresa had "far greater egos than you will ever understand"; patting himself on the back for his newspaper ads urging the death penalty for the Central Park 5, who weren't even charged yet and who ended up being exonerated by DNA evidence; and not wanting to ever be president because he wanted to focus on things like his foundation, which a couple years ago was forced to disband because he was illegally using funds meant for charity, including on a portrait of himself.
But it was his "I'm the toughest guy in the world and just about everybody else is a wimp" schtick that really resonates now, 30 years later. Very typical talk for a guy who has spent his life bullying others, a coward who wouldn't fight for America himself but would use his militia to attack a group of peaceful protesters just so he could stage a photo-op.
President Bone Spur wants his own Tiananmen Square, his own Kent State. That'd show the ba$tard$!
I’m surprised he was able to walk from the White House to the church down the road with those debilitating bone spurs
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Clearly why he drives his golf carts up onto tee boxes and greens.
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Why this creep lies about such obvious truths is beyond understanding.
Because 90% of his followers, the Fox viewing/Limbaugh listening segment, will never discover that they are lies. The other 10% that stumble across the truth won't care because they got, you know, their tax cuts.
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Yes, much like mayors and governors stepped up during the pandemic to fill the vacuum of leadership created at the federal level, this is another opportunity for them to address on an ad hoc basis one of the most vexing problems of this or any other time. And when they are done, they can replace Jared in bringing peace to the middle east.
Seriously, though, governors and mayors are going to have to lead. And if they are smart, they will be communicating and collaborating.
I agree, and that's why I brought this up. I'm not saying it's intentional, but since Trump went off the deep end on Sunday the "focus" seems to have shifted to Trump in this, I get it but other than DC any of the bad outcomes and/or problems are controlled at the local level. What DeBlasio and Coumo are doing in NYC is like a dystopian novel. I feel like the local authorities are largely hiding behind the hate of Trump because that means there isn't any focus on them.
My point is, the change has to be local, and I can't speak for anywhere else because I'm only local to MKE, but I'm definitely not seeing any discussions about local changes.
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Ft. Lauderdale police officer that shoved a seated female protestor has been reviewed by Internal Affairs 79 times in 3.5 years for using force.
https://amp.miamiherald.com/news/local/crime/article243234261.html?__twitter_impression=true
These issues are going to make for very interesting political bedfellows. One of the significant barriers to change is the power of Police Unions....will the Ds have the will power to breakdown a union? will the Rs have the will power to not stand up for the one union that tends to support their politics? I don't know, but I'm not terribly optimistic.
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I agree, and that's why I brought this up. I'm not saying it's intentional, but since Trump went off the deep end on Sunday the "focus" seems to have shifted to Trump in this, I get it but other than DC any of the bad outcomes and/or problems are controlled at the local level. What DeBlasio and Coumo are doing in NYC is like a dystopian novel. I feel like the local authorities are largely hiding behind the hate of Trump because that means there isn't any focus on them.
My point is, the change has to be local, and I can't speak for anywhere else because I'm only local to MKE, but I'm definitely not seeing any discussions about local changes.
I don’t know where they will go, but here are a couple:
https://www.boston.com/news/politics/2020/06/03/george-floyd-protests-proposed-reforms/amp
https://www.wfaa.com/mobile/article/news/local/george-floyd-protests-dallas-changes-police/287-3a793b3c-406a-4ff0-bd19-4a0391c5c752
Even the very conservative governor of South Dakota sounds open to reform:
https://www.argusleader.com/story/news/politics/2020/06/03/gov-kristi-noem-calls-police-changes-after-george-floyd-death-south-dakota/3134746001/
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I agree, and that's why I brought this up. I'm not saying it's intentional, but since Trump went off the deep end on Sunday the "focus" seems to have shifted to Trump in this, I get it but other than DC any of the bad outcomes and/or problems are controlled at the local level. What DeBlasio and Coumo are doing in NYC is like a dystopian novel. I feel like the local authorities are largely hiding behind the hate of Trump because that means there isn't any focus on them.
My point is, the change has to be local, and I can't speak for anywhere else because I'm only local to MKE, but I'm definitely not seeing any discussions about local changes.
You're right, of course. I know I am guilty of focusing on the top, because having a great leader would mean so much right now. And while I agree that we need the same people who have stepped up during the pandemic to do so about this soul-of-America issue, their job is all the more difficult because not only aren't we getting leadership from the top, we are getting resistance from the top. Our supposed national leader is actively seeking to inhibit the stuff we need, forcing his own underlings to denounce his policies.
But yes, we need big-time leadership from governors, mayors, county boards, city councils, school boards, civic leaders, etc. Despite this very difficult last week, I am hopeful.
Hell, I'll even give Trump credit for signing the First Step Act a couple years ago. That really was a good first step. It's a shame that his bone spurs got in the way of him taking any other good steps, but it again shows there's hope.
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https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/06/james-mattis-denounces-trump-protests-militarization/612640/
General James Mattis finally spoke out today, and wow, it was something. He absolutely destroyed everything about Trump. This decorated general who is one of the most respected military men among both the Brass and the enlisted men even compared Trump to Hitler. Between his letter of resignation and this piece, there will be some advanced courses in American History with these two documents as the centerpiece.
Trump tweeted tonight that he fired Mattis. Mattis resigned after Trump stabbed the Kurds in the back and we have the document to prove it. He also tweeted that he gave Mattis the nickname Mad Dog. Everyone knows this was a longtime nickname that was in place years before Trump ever heard of him. Why this creep lies about such obvious truths is beyond understanding.
The part about saying he went to the bunker briefly to inspect it is crazy too. Just say it’s SS protocol when they think there’s a risk to his safety. I’m guessing that’s not too far from the truth. The stuff that no one really cares about and is easily disproved that he still lies about I will never grasp.
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You're right, of course. I know I am guilty of focusing on the top, because having a great leader would mean so much right now. And while I agree that we need the same people who have stepped up during the pandemic to do so about this soul-of-America issue, their job is all the more difficult because not only aren't we getting leadership from the top, we are getting resistance from the top. Our supposed national leader is actively seeking to inhibit the stuff we need, forcing his own underlings to denounce his policies.
But yes, we need big-time leadership from governors, mayors, county boards, city councils, school boards, civic leaders, etc. Despite this very difficult last week, I am hopeful.
Hell, I'll even give Trump credit for signing the First Step Act a couple years ago. That really was a good first step. It's a shame that his bone spurs got in the way of him taking any other good steps, but it again shows there's hope.
Yeah, I guess what I'm saying that in this particular instance even good presidential leadership would be counter productive. We tend to think national and act local....if we think it's being handled nationally we take our foot off the gas locally. There is a way for the president to avoid that for sure but not even Obama really figured that out and of presidents in my life time hes the one I would put the most faith in trying to calm while driving change at the lower levels.
We need the local level folks stepping up, putting a plan together, and then executing(asking for help federally where necessary). Take MKE and Mayor Barrett, between him and the police chief the current thinking is allow the protests and minimize violence/looting.....I've yet to see any discussion of reform that makes the protesters feel heard.
And it's not just the big cities, it's any community regardless of size. I don't care if you live in a town that's 100% white, we should all want these reforms because white people get killed unnecessarily by cops too....just not nearly at the rate minorities do.
I listened to DeRay Mckanssen on a podcast and he asked a really good question.....what are the circumstances under which if your child was harmed or killed you would say " that really sucks, but I get it"? Whatever those circumstances are, they should apply to everyone's child (take the punishment out of the equation, this is just the immediate police interaction) regardless of who they are
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Yeah, I guess what I'm saying that in this particular instance even good presidential leadership would be counter productive. We tend to think national and act local....if we think it's being handled nationally we take our foot off the gas locally. There is a way for the president to avoid that for sure but not even Obama really figured that out and of presidents in my life time hes the one I would put the most faith in trying to calm while driving change at the lower levels.
We need the local level folks stepping up, putting a plan together, and then executing(asking for help federally where necessary). Take MKE and Mayor Barrett, between him and the police chief the current thinking is allow the protests and minimize violence/looting.....I've yet to see any discussion of reform that makes the protesters feel heard.
And it's not just the big cities, it's any community regardless of size. I don't care if you live in a town that's 100% white, we should all want these reforms because white people get killed unnecessarily by cops too....just not nearly at the rate minorities do.
I listened to DeRay Mckanssen on a podcast and he asked a really good question.....what are the circumstances under which if your child was harmed or killed you would say " that really sucks, but I get it"? Whatever those circumstances are, they should apply to everyone's child (take the punishment out of the equation, this is just the immediate police interaction) regardless of who they are
Many changes in our history start with a national catalyst. Federal government sets priorities of what cases we pursue through our federal courts, they provide oversite, and they provide funding.
In a reverse example, I would say the militarization of our police came from the feds first. So yeah - local govt's had to purchase that equipment, but a lot of the funding came from the center. So if the fed's didnt matter how did all these local governments end up with expensive military grade equipment?
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Many changes in our history start with a national catalyst. Federal government sets priorities of what cases we pursue through our federal courts, they provide oversite, and they provide funding.
In a reverse example, I would say the militarization of our police came from the feds first. So yeah - local govt's had to purchase that equipment, but a lot of the funding came from the center. So if the fed's didnt matter how did all these local governments end up with expensive military grade equipment?
The previous administration sold local police and sheriff departments the surplus vehicles and equipment from Iraq and Afghanistan.
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The previous administration sold local police and sheriff departments the surplus vehicles and equipment from Iraq and Afghanistan.
No kidding. I know that and it proves my point...since 9/11/01 we have centrally and systematically shaped our local police force (probably even earlier, but certainly since that date).
This isn't an attempt to get into a pissing match about R's and D's
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There's a ton of local pressure and reform happening. Examples -- In Minneapolis, the U, the public schools, and the park district have all taken major steps cutting ties with MPD. In LA, Garcetti is slashing the police budget and reinvesting that money in underserved communities. I think the last couple days has seen a shift in the narrative from outrage/protests and resources for individuals to engage and learn, to how to do something about it on a policy level. I hope it's sustained and doesn't fade when our attention is inevitably snatched by something else.
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The previous administration sold local police and sheriff departments the surplus vehicles and equipment from Iraq and Afghanistan.
This has been happening informally since WWII under the Surplus Property Act, and was formalized as the "1033 Program" during the Clinton Administration.
The Obama Administration placed limits on it after the riots in Ferguson and Baltimore, banning the sale of tracked armored vehicles, bayonets, grenade launchers, camouflage uniforms and large-caliber weapons and ammunition to police.
The Trump Administation has since overturned those limitations.
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I'm really surprised the gun toting NRA types haven't been critical of the tyranical use of military force we saw in DC earlier this week. Why aren't they showing up in support of the Constitutional rights they say are so important to them?
Well maybe soon.
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I'm really surprised the gun toting NRA types haven't been critical of the tyranical use of military force we saw in DC earlier this week. Why aren't they showing up in support of the Constitutional rights they say are so important to them?
Well maybe soon.
Not to worry. Once a Dem is back in the White House, those rights will be important again.
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Many changes in our history start with a national catalyst. Federal government sets priorities of what cases we pursue through our federal courts, they provide oversite, and they provide funding.
In a reverse example, I would say the militarization of our police came from the feds first. So yeah - local govt's had to purchase that equipment, but a lot of the funding came from the center. So if the fed's didnt matter how did all these local governments end up with expensive military grade equipment?
I dont disagree that needs to change....but the police aren't committing violence because they have "weapons of war" they are doing so because culturally, organizationally, and from a policy perspective they are at a minimum not incentivized to avoid the violence.
The military equipment no doubt enables some of the actions we're seeing during these protests but in a normal police situation it has almost no bearing.
Put another way(admittedly blunt) George Floyd isn't dead because the MPD had a tank somewhere, he's dead because of bad cops who were enabled by bad policies.
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I dont disagree that needs to change....but the police aren't committing violence because they have "weapons of war" they are doing so because culturally, organizationally, and from a policy perspective they are at a minimum not incentivized to avoid the violence.
The military equipment no doubt enables some of the actions we're seeing during these protests but in a normal police situation it has almost no bearing.
Put another way(admittedly blunt) George Floyd isn't dead because the MPD had a tank somewhere, he's dead because of bad cops who were enabled by bad policies.
I clearly didn’t state what I was trying to say well. The example is to show that the federal govt absolutely has the power and capability to lead change. In fact if it is to change it will take both local and federal prioritization, in my opinion.
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I clearly didn’t state what I was trying to say well. The example is to show that the federal govt absolutely has the power and capability to lead change. In fact if it is to change it will take both local and federal prioritization, in my opinion.
Not going to totally disgree....I just think meaningful change can happen with or without the feds, but meaningful change can't happen only with the feds
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The part about saying he went to the bunker briefly to inspect it is crazy too. Just say it’s SS protocol when they think there’s a risk to his safety. I’m guessing that’s not too far from the truth. The stuff that no one really cares about and is easily disproved that he still lies about I will never grasp.
We throw around the term "pathological liar," but that's exactly what he is. If he weren't such a reprehensible human being and dangerous president, one could almost feel sorry for him because it appears he simply can't tell the truth.
Like a 5-year-old caught with a cookie in his hand, his first instinct is to say, "What cookie? I don't have a cookie." I mean, he has lied multiple times about where his own father was born. Who else lies like that? Nobody.
It's a combination of him being a pathological liar, of him having narcissistic personality disorder, and of his enablers reinforcing his lies by heralding him as the one and only truth-teller: It's everybody else who's lying; we love Trump because he tells it like it is.
Even his supporters who admit he lies say he merely "stretches the truth" or "exaggerates." Or they say, "So what; they all do it."
Yes, anybody can name a politician and rattle off a few lies he or she has told, and yes, some were whoppers. Mention Trump lying, and a sycophant will quickly counter with Obama's "If you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor." Or maybe Clinton's lies about Monica or even Nixon's about Watergate, etc.
But there never has been anybody like this guy. Lying is his default mode. He has told thousands and thousands and thousands of them, big and small, and he tells them in an age when fact-checking is incredibly easy, a 10-second Google search away from proving he is totally full of it. He doesn't care, and neither do his sycophants.
A good mental-health professional could do his or her life's work on it. It would be an fascinating study.
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I dont disagree that needs to change....but the police aren't committing violence because they have "weapons of war" they are doing so because culturally, organizationally, and from a policy perspective they are at a minimum not incentivized to avoid the violence.
The military equipment no doubt enables some of the actions we're seeing during these protests but in a normal police situation it has almost no bearing.
Put another way(admittedly blunt) George Floyd isn't dead because the MPD had a tank somewhere, he's dead because of bad cops who were enabled by bad policies.
I tend to agree - if for no other reason than that we have seen real change before and know where it comes from.
Real change comes from the bottom up, not from the top down. Politicians generally didn't give a rat's a$$ about gay rights until enough people at the bottom demanded change.
This is the one thing that encourages me here. The protests continue day after day. People everywhere are speaking out, no longer worrying about the risk of doing so. I mean, when MJ speaks out, you know there is a sea change coming. I would encourage everyone check out the WSCR interview with Akeem Hicks of the bears for an example of how things have changed. A guy who supported Kaepernik, but was afraid to show that support because he feared being blackballed is now speaking with total honesty. Even criticizing Pace for signing Glennon without ever considering Kaepernik when every single player knew Colin was a better player with a better resume.
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This has been happening informally since WWII under the Surplus Property Act, and was formalized as the "1033 Program" during the Clinton Administration.
The Obama Administration placed limits on it after the riots in Ferguson and Baltimore, banning the sale of tracked armored vehicles, bayonets, grenade launchers, camouflage uniforms and large-caliber weapons and ammunition to police.
The Trump Administation has since overturned those limitations.
Well you see, it is bad that Obama did that, but it is Ok that Trump made it worse because: Tax Cuts.
Or so I've heard.
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Not going to totally disgree....I just think meaningful change can happen with or without the feds, but meaningful change can't happen only with the feds
Perhaps...but some of the most difficult changes require both. Look at the civil rights movement in the 60s. Some states took actions, but there were holdouts that required the federal government to intervene.
I agree with you that change is more likely if it starts locally - a few cities, then maybe entire states changing their policing policies. But I still fear there will be holdouts that require the federal government to step in and standardize that will (by then) have become generally accepted practices in a significant part of the country.
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Perhaps...but some of the most difficult changes require both. Look at the civil rights movement in the 60s. Some states took actions, but there were holdouts that required the federal government to intervene.
I agree with you that change is more likely if it starts locally - a few cities, then maybe entire states changing their policing policies. But I still fear there will be holdouts that require the federal government to step in and standardize that will (by then) have become generally accepted practices in a significant part of the country.
I think this is right. Change can occur locally, but if we're seeking a widespread societal/cultural change, it's going to take some federal leadership.
I may be wrong here, but at the moment I can't think of any significant cultural change in this country's history - whether it be abolition, civil rights, women's suffrage, the labor movement or even our views on the environment - that didn't involve federal intervention and/or legislation.
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I may be wrong here, but at the moment I can't think of any significant cultural change in this country's history - whether it be abolition, civil rights, women's suffrage, the labor movement or even our views on the environment - that didn't involve federal intervention and/or legislation.
You are correct. but,... none of these changes started at the federal level - it is just where they ended up with legislation.
Every movement you listed started at the bottom and worked its way to the Federal level.
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"How Union, Supreme Court shield Minneapolis Cops"
https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN23B2LL?__twitter_impression=true
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You are correct. but,... none of these changes started at the federal level - it is just where they ended up with legislation.
Every movement you listed started at the bottom and worked its way to the Federal level.
Agreed, look at gay marriage. Enough states legalized it that it became problematic at the federal level and change came. The federal apparatus, by design does not move fast nor does it impact our lives at this kind of level.
Everyone's logic is to go federal and solve all of this is one action but it just practically doesn't work that way.
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Everyone's logic is to go federal and solve all of this is one action but it just practically doesn't work that way.
Is that everyone's logic?
Seems like we're mostly in agreement here. Movements start local, but for widespread change, need federal involvement.
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I think we are all essentially on the same page here. Significant, lasting change needs to start at the local and state level, with the federal government getting involved to address inequities after the changes become a generally accepted part of our culture.
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Is that everyone's logic?
Seems like we're mostly in agreement here. Movements start local, but for widespread change, need federal involvement.
Everyone, as in people who aren't so enlightened to habitually visit this board. ;D
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Everyone, as in people who aren't so enlightened to habitually visit this board. ;D
Fair point.
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Everyone, as in people who aren't so enlightened to habitually visit this board. ;D
Enlightenment scale:
Scoopers >>>> The rest of humanity. ;)
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Hard to defend or explain this.
@ericuman: The U.S. Park Police union just said those Australian journalists in Lafayette Park were "in the middle of violent protesters" and "may have fallen."
https://twitter.com/RSprouseNews/status/1268659957328732163
Here's the reality. https://twitter.com/Gizmodo/status/1267764344118562816
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@ericuman: The U.S. Park Police union just said those Australian journalists in Lafayette Park were "in the middle of violent protesters" and "may have fallen."
https://twitter.com/RSprouseNews/status/1268659957328732163
Here's the reality. https://twitter.com/Gizmodo/status/1267764344118562816
Wow. Don’t believe what you just saw, eh?
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‘Strategic’ well-orchestrated heists seen amid protest chaos
https://apnews.com/86bcd9074dec5444cc8f484ac6623fbf
Caravans of burglars have capitalized on chaos, communicating with each other via messaging apps during heists and using both the protests and other tactics to throw police off their trail. While opportunists have sometimes joined the frenzy, police and experts say there is a sophistication that suggests a level of planning that goes beyond spontaneous acts.
It’s hardly the first time legitimate protest has been used as a cover for crime. But crime experts note the scale of the thefts, which have taken place coast-to-coast, in big and small cities and in suburbs.
“I’ve been a student of these things. And I have never seen anything like it,” said Neil Sullivan, a nationally recognized expert on mass-events security and retired Chicago Police Department commander.
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That video of the park police and the Australian journalists reminds me of the CNN crew that was arrested while broadcasting live, and the explanation from the state police was that they were arrested and released once it was determined that they were press.
Seriously, how can they issue a statement that they may have fallen with a straight face?
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I tend to agree - if for no other reason than that we have seen real change before and know where it comes from.
Real change comes from the bottom up, not from the top down. Politicians generally didn't give a rat's a$$ about gay rights until enough people at the bottom demanded change.
100% agree, Jockey.
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Wow. Don’t believe what you just saw, eh?
Meh. The cops were just using their shields to "inspect" the journalists' cameras.
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Hard to defend or explain this.
@ericuman: The U.S. Park Police union just said those Australian journalists in Lafayette Park were "in the middle of violent protesters" and "may have fallen."
https://twitter.com/RSprouseNews/status/1268659957328732163
Here's the reality. https://twitter.com/Gizmodo/status/1267764344118562816
Seems kind of like this elderly man, who just "tripped and fell" in front of Buffalo police, leaving him with a fractured skull and bleeding from the ear.
https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/501279-elderly-man-appears-unconscious-bleeding-from-ear-after-shoved-to-ground
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Cops wail away on woman who doesn't take kindly to being felt up.
Dear bad police officers ... there are cameras on you. All. The. Time.
https://twitter.com/greg_doucette/status/1268391718086422528/video/1
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Jim Mattis lost my respect with the Theranos scandal.
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/8/31/20839873/james-mattis-book-theranos
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Seems kind of like this elderly man, who just "tripped and fell" in front of Buffalo police, leaving him with a fractured skull and bleeding from the ear.
https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/501279-elderly-man-appears-unconscious-bleeding-from-ear-after-shoved-to-ground
Let me piss off a few people here. This video is why cops get called pigs.
Peaceful Americans are being assaulted by these animals all over America tonight.
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Let me piss off a few people here. This video is why cops get called pigs.
Peaceful Americans are being assaulted by these animals all over America tonight.
Led by the Bunker Boy himself.
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Jim Mattis lost my respect with the Theranos scandal.
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/8/31/20839873/james-mattis-book-theranos
Just out of curiosity. Which politicians do you revere?
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https://twitter.com/MWatkinsTrib/status/1268727164956020737?s=19
'Merica. Sigh
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https://twitter.com/MWatkinsTrib/status/1268727164956020737?s=19
'Merica. Sigh
Same woman who has been loud about Covid being a hoax as well.
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Let me piss off a few people here. This video is why cops get called pigs.
Peaceful Americans are being assaulted by these animals all over America tonight.
There is no doubt that these are some of the lowest moments in memory for the police in general and for these individuals caught on camera but are we so superior that we can't have empathy for those put in a terrible situation and then some how expecting perfect results?
I'm not saying these actions don't require consequences, they most certainly do.....but we are all experiencing stress, anxiety, frustration, etc in these times and we, by and large aren't in the thick of it. We aren't African Americans, we aren't cops, we aren't feeling the stresses that they are and I don't think its reasonable to assume there won't be this kind of powder keg when our leaders put people in these situations.
These videos we see of cops doing bad things are bad, they should be punished but to label the group (just like labeling the protests because of the looters) is just assume.
There but for the grace of God go I
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https://twitter.com/MWatkinsTrib/status/1268727164956020737?s=19
'Merica. Sigh
'Merica.
A multi-racial family of four from Spokane was accused of being members of Antifa, followed and prevented from leaving their campsite by trees felled to block the road, Clallam County Sheriff’s deputies said.
https://www.peninsuladailynews.com/crime/family-harassed-in-forks-after-being-accused-of-being-members-of-antifa/
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There's a ton of local pressure and reform happening. Examples -- In Minneapolis, the U, the public schools, and the park district have all taken major steps cutting ties with MPD. In LA, Garcetti is slashing the police budget and reinvesting that money in underserved communities. I think the last couple days has seen a shift in the narrative from outrage/protests and resources for individuals to engage and learn, to how to do something about it on a policy level. I hope it's sustained and doesn't fade when our attention is inevitably snatched by something else.
The Minneapolis City Council is going to disband the the City Police Department. How will the city survive without law enforcement? Unclear what will replace it.
https://time.com/5848705/disband-and-replace-minneapolis-police/
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Jim Mattis lost my respect with the Theranos scandal.
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/8/31/20839873/james-mattis-book-theranos
”One comment I would like to make is on the weight of the kid. You and others continue to bring this up. In the BBC this morning, they mentioned Zimmerman is 5'9", he's a little guy. Martin is 6'3". Zimmerman may weigh more, but if Martin has 6 inches on him he also has leverage. It's the first time I have seen any report mentioning the height of those involved. If you're a little guy at 5'9" and you have a 6'3" guy on top of you slamming your head against the pavement and breaking your nose, then I can see pulling a gun." --Hoopaloop
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Jim Mattis lost my respect with the Theranos scandal.
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/8/31/20839873/james-mattis-book-theranos
Just curious: which scandal led you to lose your respect for Trump? I would give you options to choose from, but the list would be much too long for this forum.
As for Theranos, Elizabeth Holmes was a master manipulator, who had everyone from federal regulators to Walgreens executives to reputable scientists conned with her testing scheme. That does not excuse Mattis, but puts him in the more appropriate context of being conned by a person who had nearly everybody conned.
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There is no doubt that these are some of the lowest moments in memory for the police in general and for these individuals caught on camera but are we so superior that we can't have empathy for those put in a terrible situation and then some how expecting perfect results?
I'm not saying these actions don't require consequences, they most certainly do.....but we are all experiencing stress, anxiety, frustration, etc in these times and we, by and large aren't in the thick of it. We aren't African Americans, we aren't cops, we aren't feeling the stresses that they are and I don't think its reasonable to assume there won't be this kind of powder keg when our leaders put people in these situations.
These videos we see of cops doing bad things are bad, they should be punished but to label the group (just like labeling the protests because of the looters) is just assume.
There but for the grace of God go I
While I would normally agree with you that the police do a thankless job, there is widespread abuse across multiple agencies during a period of time where they should actually be more sensitive and certainly should be aware of the multitude of eyes and cameras on them. You have to wonder how bad it is when the cameras are off.
It seems like they are either trying to incite further violence or just truly don't give a crap and do what they want. Either way, not good.
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As some one else pointed out earlier, the place to start is massive overhaul with police union leaders. I know someone in charge of one in a large U.S. Metro and he is one of the worst people I've personally come across. And it is not uncommon across the country.
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Just curious: which scandal led you to lose your respect for Trump? I would give you options to choose from, but the list would be much too long for this forum.
As for Theranos, Elizabeth Holmes was a master manipulator, who had everyone from federal regulators to Walgreens executives to reputable scientists conned with her testing scheme. That does not excuse Mattis, but puts him in the more appropriate context of being conned by a person who had nearly everybody conned.
Not the only person to con Mattis, if you know what I mean.
That said, raising Mattis' involvement on the Theranos board to attack the credibility of his recent statements is just a weak ad hominem. Warrior Dad doesn't support Trump, he just attacks the character of those who criticize Trump.
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https://twitter.com/MWatkinsTrib/status/1268727164956020737?s=19
'Merica. Sigh
Stop it. Both sides do this all the time. Both sides. Yep.
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The Minneapolis City Council is going to disband the the City Police Department. How will the city survive without law enforcement? Unclear what will replace it.
https://time.com/5848705/disband-and-replace-minneapolis-police/
Some council members have expressed support for this. That's a ways from saying they're going to do it.
Did you read the piece you linked? He lays out ideas on how they could be replaced. Here are two other articles with suggestions for how it could be done:
https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2020/06/police-abolition-george-floyd/
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/police-brutality-cop-free-world-protest-199465/
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There is no doubt that these are some of the lowest moments in memory for the police in general and for these individuals caught on camera but are we so superior that we can't have empathy for those put in a terrible situation and then some how expecting perfect results?
I'm not saying these actions don't require consequences, they most certainly do.....but we are all experiencing stress, anxiety, frustration, etc in these times and we, by and large aren't in the thick of it. We aren't African Americans, we aren't cops, we aren't feeling the stresses that they are and I don't think its reasonable to assume there won't be this kind of powder keg when our leaders put people in these situations.
These videos we see of cops doing bad things are bad, they should be punished but to label the group (just like labeling the protests because of the looters) is just assume.
There but for the grace of God go I
The problem, Eng, is that these are not one-offs. these incidents occur regularly.
Specifically, in the Buffalo police abuse of a 75 year old man, Buffalo PD officially said that the man tripped & fell. If we didn’t have video there would have been no accountability. Maybe 1 "bad apple" pushed him down but what about the 10-15 "good" cops who said nothing. Without the video, this would simply be one more episode of police brutality gotten away with.
There are not a few bad cops out there, but thousands of bad cops who allow this to go on and say nothing while lying in their reports about abuse that they have seen. And they feel justified because the president and attorney General are encouraging them to dominate American citizens.
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As some one else pointed out earlier, the place to start is massive overhaul with police union leaders. I know someone in charge of one in a large U.S. Metro and he is one of the worst people I've personally come across. And it is not uncommon across the country.
Yup. I think that was me. I used to work with cops often and developed social relationships with many. The great majority are good people just trying to do their best to serve their communities. But there are a fair number of a-holes in the crowd, and almost invariably it's those a-holes who rise to the top of the FOPs. And one reason they rise to the top of the FOPs is because they don't rise to the top of their departments and become management ... largely because the department knows they're lousy cops.
mu03eng made a worthwhile point earlier. All cops feel under attack right now, and even good people who feel under attack can act poorly. I imagine a good cop - and most of them are good - is incredibly frustrated right now. They've dedicated their careers to protecting their communities, at times at risk to themselves, and now they feel that huge numbers of those people are looking at you suspiciously, calling you names, marching against you, etc. It sucks. Hopefully the better of those cops realize it's about them, it's about the system that they're caught up in along with the other side.
This is no way justifies the bad actors out there, or excuses them from consequences. F--- those people with a rusty pole. But the sooner everyone can step back for a moment and catch our collective breaths, the better we'll be.
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There are good, bad, indifferent people in every profession, police, firefighters, EMT's, doctors, nurses, social workers, corporate business, military, athletes, teachers, clergy, ...every profession, no exceptions.
This thread with several links contains some of the "bad" with police officers for example:
https://twitter.com/andizeisler/status/1268713465322987521?s=19
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Yup. I think that was me. I used to work with cops often and developed social relationships with many. The great majority are good people just trying to do their best to serve their communities. But there are a fair number of a-holes in the crowd, and almost invariably it's those a-holes who rise to the top of the FOPs. And one reason they rise to the top of the FOPs is because they don't rise to the top of their departments and become management ... largely because the department knows they're lousy cops.
mu03eng made a worthwhile point earlier. All cops feel under attack right now, and even good people who feel under attack can act poorly. I imagine a good cop - and most of them are good - is incredibly frustrated right now. They've dedicated their careers to protecting their communities, at times at risk to themselves, and now they feel that huge numbers of those people are looking at you suspiciously, calling you names, marching against you, etc. It sucks. Hopefully the better of those cops realize it's about them, it's about the system that they're caught up in along with the other side.
This is no way justifies the bad actors out there, or excuses them from consequences. F--- those people with a rusty pole. But the sooner everyone can step back for a moment and catch our collective breaths, the better we'll be.
Cops protecting other cops no matter what is one of the largest problems in law enforcement. Encouraging good cops to speak out and remove the bad cops would go a long way towards giving people more faith in police.
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There is no doubt that these are some of the lowest moments in memory for the police in general and for these individuals caught on camera but are we so superior that we can't have empathy for those put in a terrible situation and then some how expecting perfect results?
...
These videos we see of cops doing bad things are bad, they should be punished but to label the group (just like labeling the protests because of the looters) is just assume.
The inclination to understand and balance the unforunate tension in the job is the right one. The problem with this line of thinking though, is that it smushes the crime and the cover up into one act, which its not. By doing that, we ignore the systemic problems by focusing on the individual bad acts.
In all these cases, we have two parts. One is the crapty cop doing a crapty thing. The second part is the official report that then gets filed, accepted, and becomes the record, that "the person fell down" to "the person resisted" to "we found drugs on the person so we were in the right." These often not only often unfairly and inaccurately shift the blame of the incident themselves, but they often create criminality on the part of the citizen which then must be upheld throughout the criminal justice process.
You're right that cops are put in really difficult positions every day, and we don't do anyone a service by pretending that's not the case. But the cover up/spin is an inherent part of the system right now, and that's f*cked. And that blanket cover has filtered down to all levels of law enforcement. The average cop on the street is worse for the culture of knowing that the system exists to protect him, not to get it right - and its really poisoned the well.
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https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/06/04/public-health-protests-301534
We have a protest launching from near our house tomorrow. As much as I'd love to participate, I can't get my head around the potential risk. Planning on bringing water and supplies for them as a way to help.
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In NYC they cops have detained some of the volunteer legal observers, who wear apparel designating them as such, and who are trained to do just that -observe and document.
The blue wall of silence needs to come down, and that can only come from the cops themselves. And that includes not just these types of incidents, but stopping the lying and dishonesty in court testimony.
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Cops protecting other cops no matter what is one of the largest problems in law enforcement. Encouraging good cops to speak out and remove the bad cops would go a long way towards giving people more faith in police.
Absolutely.
The state's attorney in Kane County, Illlinois (who also was the special prosecutor in the Laquan McDonald case and is a Republican) made a good suggestion about this ... make cops the equivalent of mandatory reporters when it comes to intervening and reporting excessive force by colleagues, and impose criminal consequences on those that do not.
This removes, or at least lessens, the fear the cops will face backlash within the ranks if they report a fellow cop because it essentially leaves them no other option - either report or risk a career-ending criminal conviction.
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Absolutely.
The state's attorney in Kane County, Illlinois (who also was the special prosecutor in the Laquan McDonald case and is a Republican) made a good suggestion about this ... make cops the equivalent of mandatory reporters when it comes to intervening and reporting excessive force by colleagues, and impose criminal consequences on those that do not.
This removes, or at least lessens, the fear the cops will face backlash within the ranks if they report a fellow cop because it essentially leaves them no other option - either report or risk a career-ending criminal conviction.
I'm more of a carrot rather than the stick kind of dude since people usually respond better to positive reinforcement. Perhaps a combo.
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It’s not just excessive force -it’s the ‘fudging’ of the facts or the outright lying, the whole the ends justify the means mentality. Examples are legion -I saw cases where the cop told the grand Jury the contraband tested positive for cocaine when it didn’t -maybe he thought no one would actually read it? Consequences to the cop -nothing. I had a case where it became clear during a bench trial the cop had testified under oath at the preliminary hearing not to what he saw but to what his partner saw. Again, outside of the judge dismissing the case on due process grounds , no consequences. And there are thousands of examples, all of which poison any hope of good community relations.
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Some council members have expressed support for this. That's a ways from saying they're going to do it.
Did you read the piece you linked? He lays out ideas on how they could be replaced. Here are two other articles with suggestions for how it could be done:
https://www.motherjones.com/crime-justice/2020/06/police-abolition-george-floyd/
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/police-brutality-cop-free-world-protest-199465/
Legalized drugs, legal prostitution, abolition of prisons...that is going to make for a better society, not to mention unarmed community patrols; they will keep the peace against well armed gang factions in many of the communities? Will the more affluent communities have to hire their own security forces to keep them safe as there will be no police force? All the "solutions" are seen through the black experience exclusively. Its like all cops are white. I don't see this bringing us all together, it just furthers the racial divide.
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Protect and serve Commander:
https://billypenn.com/2020/06/05/philly-police-commander-videotaped-beating-protesters-linked-to-narcotics-scandal-misconduct/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
https://www.inquirer.com/news/philadelphia-police-beating-temple-student-evan-gorski-protest-20200604.html?outputType=amp&__twitter_impression=true
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It’s not just excessive force -it’s the ‘fudging’ of the facts or the outright lying, the whole the ends justify the means mentality. Examples are legion -I saw cases where the cop told the grand Jury the contraband tested positive for cocaine when it didn’t -maybe he thought no one would actually read it? Consequences to the cop -nothing. I had a case where it became clear during a bench trial the cop had testified under oath at the preliminary hearing not to what he saw but to what his partner saw. Again, outside of the judge dismissing the case on due process grounds , no consequences. And there are thousands of examples, all of which poison any hope of good community relations.
Absolutely, one set of laws for the ruling class and another for the rest of us. Hell the police and the FBI can lie to us, but we can't lie to them. If you don't plea to this will go after your son. A politician obstructs justice or violates laws regarding national security but the DOJ does not prosecute. I am sorry for being so cynical, but our judicial system does not work because it is so politicized. Prosecutors are not interested in the truth, just the conviction or just looking the other way when their political allies are in legal trouble.
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I'm more of a carrot rather than the stick kind of dude since people usually respond better to positive reinforcement. Perhaps a combo.
I get it, but I'm not sure how you positively reinforce someone into doing the right thing when that person already has taken an oath to do the right thing and isn't doing the right thing.
Creating a severe consequence in this case not only incentivizes the correct behavior, but gives those officers an "out" against those who would view it as selling out one of their own.
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The current DOJ has been walking back the consent decrees entered into during the previous eight years, and has no interest in investigating police departments for civil rights violations.
And please don’t hold up Michael Flynn as some type of example -the same people giving him a pass because they ‘threatened his son’ have no problem taking down a poor black kid from the south side who says he signed a statement because he was threatened or lied to.
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We've got some tough guys out there.
Rex Chapman🏇🏼 @RexChapman
This is madness. A young woman sitting in the street — in obvious distress. A policeman kicks her in the face. We’re apparently not better than this... pic.twitter.com/CntGgvtqbP
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Legalized drugs, legal prostitution, abolition of prisons...that is going to make for a better society, not to mention unarmed community patrols; they will keep the peace against well armed gang factions in many of the communities? Will the more affluent communities have to hire their own security forces to keep them safe as there will be no police force? All the "solutions" are seen through the black experience exclusively. Its like all cops are white. I don't see this bringing us all together, it just furthers the racial divide.
So what is the solution then? We have a multi-generational, systemic problem. I mean, maybe we do need to base some "solutions" on the black experience because the "law and order" ones aren't working very well. We have incarcerated an enormous portion of our population and have a problem with cops beating up the citizenry. It's not a good place to be in.
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Just curious: which scandal led you to lose your respect for Trump? I would give you options to choose from, but the list would be much too long for this forum.
As for Theranos, Elizabeth Holmes was a master manipulator, who had everyone from federal regulators to Walgreens executives to reputable scientists conned with her testing scheme. That does not excuse Mattis, but puts him in the more appropriate context of being conned by a person who had nearly everybody conned.
How can I lose respect for someone that I never had respect for (referring to Trump)?
I would invite you to watch the series on her that is on HBO. She conned those that were easily conned, but there were enough people internally calling out the red flags for a long time. People looked the other way to make money, Mattis is no exception.
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Legalized drugs, legal prostitution, abolition of prisons...that is going to make for a better society, not to mention unarmed community patrols; they will keep the peace against well armed gang factions in many of the communities? Will the more affluent communities have to hire their own security forces to keep them safe as there will be no police force? All the "solutions" are seen through the black experience exclusively. Its like all cops are white. I don't see this bringing us all together, it just furthers the racial divide.
Why shouldn't we legalize drugs and prostitution? Why should sex workers be forced to work in the shadows and endanger their lives? Why should be imprison our citizens for non-violent crimes? We focus our culture way too much on punishment and retribution rather than rehabilitation. Have you ever asked yourself why?
I don't want to lead you to an answer too much, but we do it because we don't value lives equally. Incarceration should be the punishment of last resort. It not only destroys the person who is imprisoned, but it punishes the family of that person unduly as well. This perpetuates a cycle of inequality that we see laid bare in America every day. And this doesn't even get into the privatization of the US prison system... Which is the worst idea we have had as a country since slavery was legal.
What about our country screams, "This is working well!". It's not. The system is designed to encourage systemic racism.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c4/US_Adult_Incarceration_Rate_by_State.svg/400px-US_Adult_Incarceration_Rate_by_State.svg.png)
Notice anything interesting about that map? You should.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fa/Incarceration_rates_worldwide.gif/350px-Incarceration_rates_worldwide.gif)
This one? How do we compare? Is our crime rate lower because of mass incarceration?
Please, I beg you to logically defend any of this. The US judicial system desperately needs reform.
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Poor Francis called the bishop of El Paso and thanked him for leading a BLM protest as well as taking a knee for 8:46.
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Was thinking of ways to peacefully protest that would actually hurt police forces enough to Force change. If an entire city just stopped paying parking tickets or something would that make a Big enough financial statement to force real change?
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Why shouldn't we legalize drugs and prostitution? Why should sex workers be forced to work in the shadows and endanger their lives? Why should be imprison our citizens for non-violent crimes? We focus our culture way too much on punishment and retribution rather than rehabilitation. Have you ever asked yourself why?
I don't want to lead you to an answer too much, but we do it because we don't value lives equally. Incarceration should be the punishment of last resort. It not only destroys the person who is imprisoned, but it punishes the family of that person unduly as well. This perpetuates a cycle of inequality that we see laid bare in America every day. And this doesn't even get into the privatization of the US prison system... Which is the worst idea we have had as a country since slavery was legal.
What about our country screams, "This is working well!". It's not. The system is designed to encourage systemic racism.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c4/US_Adult_Incarceration_Rate_by_State.svg/400px-US_Adult_Incarceration_Rate_by_State.svg.png)
Notice anything interesting about that map? You should.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fa/Incarceration_rates_worldwide.gif/350px-Incarceration_rates_worldwide.gif)
This one? How do we compare? Is our crime rate lower because of mass incarceration?
Please, I beg you to logically defend any of this. The US judicial system desperately needs reform.
So no prison for B&Es, embezzlement, perjury, the list can go on.
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https://www.instagram.com/p/CBD16HaHnij/?igshid=i6u2r41ba1yp
Excellent.
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Just heard an NPR report that hundreds of journalists have been attacked, mostly by police, just for doing their jobs during these protests. Several attacks have been caught on video.
It’s almost as if some very high ranking official has repeatedly demonized the media as “the enemy of the people,” while also encouraging cops to “please don’t be too nice” as they carry out their duties.
But that couldn’t be, because it would be third-world strongman dictator stuff, and we don’t have anybody like that here in America.
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Why shouldn't we legalize drugs and prostitution? Why should sex workers be forced to work in the shadows and endanger their lives? Why should be imprison our citizens for non-violent crimes? We focus our culture way too much on punishment and retribution rather than rehabilitation. Have you ever asked yourself why?
I don't want to lead you to an answer too much, but we do it because we don't value lives equally. Incarceration should be the punishment of last resort. It not only destroys the person who is imprisoned, but it punishes the family of that person unduly as well. This perpetuates a cycle of inequality that we see laid bare in America every day. And this doesn't even get into the privatization of the US prison system... Which is the worst idea we have had as a country since slavery was legal.
What about our country screams, "This is working well!". It's not. The system is designed to encourage systemic racism.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c4/US_Adult_Incarceration_Rate_by_State.svg/400px-US_Adult_Incarceration_Rate_by_State.svg.png)
Notice anything interesting about that map? You should.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fa/Incarceration_rates_worldwide.gif/350px-Incarceration_rates_worldwide.gif)
This one? How do we compare? Is our crime rate lower because of mass incarceration?
Please, I beg you to logically defend any of this. The US judicial system desperately needs reform.
There was a news story yesterday that Connecticut has it's lowest incarceration rate in 30 years and is still dropping.
State by state.
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So no prison for B&Es, embezzlement, perjury, the list can go on.
Correct. Sending a person to prison doesn't solve the problem, it usually only creates more problems. Our society is obsessed with retribution and incapacitation, when we should be obsessed with rehabilitation.
The 5 Sentencing Objectives
Taken together, those principles – of instinctual reaction or discipline – translate easily into the 5 sentencing objectives our society relies upon when punishing those who break the law. Indeed, in the same way we keep our home civilized through the appropriate discipline of children, our communities remain civilized through appropriate criminal punishments. Accordingly, those five sentencing objectives are:
Retribution. Victims and their families are injured, either physically or emotionally, by a crime. Just in the same way we instinctually want to “hit back,” the criminal justice system uses sentencing as a way to “hit” a criminal back. While the punishment may not match the crime committed, it is punishment (i.e., retribution) nonetheless. As noted above, committing a crime will be met with the state doing something the criminal does not like – typically in the form of taking away freedom, or ordering stiff monetary penalties.
Deterrence. Another objective is both general and specific deterrence. Providing punishment for a crime demonstrates to the public generally that there are consequences for committing a crime. That puts the public on notice of what the boundaries of appropriate behavior are in society. In addition, the opposite side of the same deterrence coin is to send a message to the individual criminal that there are consequences for breaking the law. The hope is that the individual will choose not to commit a crime in the future as a result of his punishment.
Incapacitation. Our criminal laws and the criminal justice system are meant to protect the public, to keep society civilized. Thus, another sentencing objective must be to protect the public if necessary through sentencing. As such, if a person commits a crime that demonstrates to society that the person cannot be trusted to behave appropriately or cannot control their actions sufficiently, then a person can be taken out of society, or incapacitated, for a period of time or permanently. The ultimate form of removing a person from society is the death penalty. A sentence of life imprisonment, however, is becoming the more favored approach in virtually all industrialized nations.
Rehabilitation. Those who have the “put ‘em in jail, and throw away the key” mentality often forget about this important sentencing objective. In fact, many participants in the criminal justice system forget about this sentencing objective as well. It should not be forgotten that many people can change, if given the chance and the right circumstances. Accordingly, sentencing a person should be done with an eye towards helping him turn his life around if that is possible. These days it is becoming clear that America’s experiment with mass incarceration is a complete failure. Hopefully, rehabilitation will truly become a viable sentencing objective again, and people will be allowed to turn their lives around and rejoin society as productive citizens.
Restitution. In addition to punishing the criminal, another sentencing objective is making the victim whole, to the extent possible. Restitution can come in the form of restoring or repairing any damage inflicted on the victim, i.e., bringing the victim back, as much as possible, to his or her pre-crime status. With some crimes, such as theft or burglary, restitution is relatively easy. The criminal can be ordered to pay back the victim, or fix the broken window. With other crimes, of course, it may be impossible to make the victim whole. In those tragic cases, perhaps the punishment itself will bring some restorative justice to a victim’s, or the victim’s family’s, emotional state.
https://sentencing.net/sentencing/sentencing-objectives
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Just heard an NPR report that hundreds of journalists have been attacked, mostly by police, just for doing their jobs during these protests. Several attacks have been caught on video.
It’s almost as if some very high ranking official has repeatedly demonized the media as “the enemy of the people,” while also encouraging cops to “please don’t be too nice” as they carry out their duties.
But that couldn’t be, because it would be third-world strongman dictator stuff, and we don’t have anybody like that here in America.
Poor police just defending themselves.
https://www.sbs.com.au/news/donald-trump-s-press-secretary-says-police-who-attacked-australian-journalists-had-right-to-defend-themselves
Again, I am not making this stuff up.
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https://www.wivb.com/news/local-news/buffalo/entire-bpd-emergency-response-team-resigns-in-support-of-suspended-officers/
50+ police officers resigned from the Buffalo emergency response unit ( but not from the force) in support of two officers suspended for pushing a 75 year old protester to the ground. If you watch the video, not only is he pushed, but they ignore him as he lies on the ground with a head injury.
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https://www.wivb.com/news/local-news/buffalo/entire-bpd-emergency-response-team-resigns-in-support-of-suspended-officers/
50+ police officers resigned from the Buffalo emergency response unit ( but not from the force) in support of two officers suspended for pushing a 75 year old protester to the ground. If you watch the video, not only is he pushed, but they ignore him as he lies on the ground with a head injury.
It is like the police are out to prove the protesters right. None of those scumbags should ever work in law enforcement again.
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https://www.wivb.com/news/local-news/buffalo/entire-bpd-emergency-response-team-resigns-in-support-of-suspended-officers/
50+ police officers resigned from the Buffalo emergency response unit ( but not from the force) in support of two officers suspended for pushing a 75 year old protester to the ground. If you watch the video, not only is he pushed, but they ignore him as he lies on the ground with a head injury.
Bad orchard
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https://www.wivb.com/news/local-news/buffalo/entire-bpd-emergency-response-team-resigns-in-support-of-suspended-officers/
50+ police officers resigned from the Buffalo emergency response unit ( but not from the force) in support of two officers suspended for pushing a 75 year old protester to the ground. If you watch the video, not only is he pushed, but they ignore him as he lies on the ground with a head injury.
Very brave of them to quit a voluntary assignment.
On the downside, senior citizens will be running rampant in Buffalo tonight.
And the union has weighed in with typical stupidity. They were "simply following orders" and "simply doing their job."
I've heard that somewhere before.
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https://www.wivb.com/news/local-news/buffalo/entire-bpd-emergency-response-team-resigns-in-support-of-suspended-officers/
50+ police officers resigned from the Buffalo emergency response unit ( but not from the force) in support of two officers suspended for pushing a 75 year old protester to the ground. If you watch the video, not only is he pushed, but they ignore him as he lies on the ground with a head injury.
How could they possibly defend what happened? Or maybe it’s just a CYA move so they don’t get in the middle of a protest where they may overreact.
“Lead me not into temptation....”
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They were following orders. Would love to see a copy of those orders. Attack unarmed senior citizens?
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No, their union president made a statement.
Definitely in support of the officers.
At first the department claimed the guy tripped, until more video came out.
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Poor police just defending themselves.
https://www.sbs.com.au/news/donald-trump-s-press-secretary-says-police-who-attacked-australian-journalists-had-right-to-defend-themselves
Again, I am not making this stuff up.
Effen sad.
McEnany is the perfect press secretary for her emperor. Spicer grew very uncomfortable lying about everything, and Sanders was never comfortable speaking publicly or interacting with people. But this one ... she loves the cameras and she LOVES lying on behalf of the Mad King.
Or as he might say, "People say she lies very strongly and powerfully."
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But but she said she would never lie.....
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https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/06/trump-is-literally-building-a-wall-around-the-white-house/amp
The Bunker Boy built a wall!
Coward.
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Historically, racial and identity politics have been winners for the GOP. Bush Sr. famously used "look at the bad black man" to help rout Dukakis, Nixon fanned those flames too, and the current president seems to be trying to do the same.
However, new polls show that might no longer be the case, indicating a significant change in Americans' attitudes from just a few years ago.
In a Monmouth University poll released this week, 76% of Americans surveyed — including 71 percent of white people — called racism and discrimination “a big problem” in the United States. That’s a 26-percentage-point spike since 2015. In the poll, 57% said demonstrators’ anger was fully justified, and another 21 percent called it somewhat justified.
https://www.monmouth.edu/polling-institute/documents/monmouthpoll_us_060220.pdf/?campaign_id=56&emc=edit_cn_20200605&instance_id=19112&nl=on-politics-with-lisa-lerer®i_id=108420427&segment_id=30158&te=1&user_id=d36dcf821462fdd16ec3636710a855fa
In that poll and another released this week by CBS News, 57% said police officers were generally more likely to treat black people unfairly than to mistreat white people.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/americans-see-differences-in-how-police-treat-whites-and-blacks-cbs-news-poll/?campaign_id=56&emc=edit_cn_20200605&instance_id=19112&nl=on-politics-with-lisa-lerer®i_id=108420427&segment_id=30158&te=1&user_id=d36dcf821462fdd16ec3636710a855fa
In both surveys, about half of white people said so. This was a drastic change, particularly for white Americans, who have not historically said they believed that black people continued to face pervasive discrimination.
“There’s definitely been a seismic shift in the country,” said Steve Phillips, a civil rights lawyer and political analyst who founded the advocacy group Democracy in Color.
He pointed to what might have sounded like a radical demand just a few years ago — cutting funding for police departments and redirecting it toward social services — and noted that it has now been openly embraced by some mayors and police chiefs, in cities including Los Angeles: “I was interested to see how that would play itself out, and now they’re doing it — it’s actually happening."
When Obama took office in 2009, just 36% of white Americans polled by Pew said the country needed to do more to ensure that black people gained equal rights. By 2017, four years after the start of the Black Lives Matter movement, that number had leapt to 54% of white people.
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No, their union president made a statement.
Definitely in support of the officers.
At first the department claimed the guy tripped, until more video came out.
The big difference now is Covid. Millions are out of work and paying attention. Unbelievably, almost 70 million have viewed the video. I’m sure some Trump supporters love to see the old guy sent flying, but the huge majority of those 70 million are appalled.
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Fox focusing on what's important.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZyJX55XsAA2E_L?format=png&name=small)
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Fox focusing on what's important.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZyJX55XsAA2E_L?format=png&name=small)
So is the President. I mean honestly how disgusting do you have to be to talk about George Floyd looking down and smiling because of the great news of job increases in America last month? Truly sick.
(And since MAGAs will jump all over me and say I’m rooting for our economy to fail just to make Donald Trump look bad...nope! I’m glad jobs went up last month. I don’t think the only comments Trump makes on the situation being to pump up his own status is healthy at all.)
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So is the President. I mean honestly how disgusting do you have to be to talk about George Floyd looking down and smiling because of the great news of job increases in America last month? Truly sick.
That's not what he said, he reference the economy previously but he name checked Floyd in reference to his perception that we made big strides in equality this week. It was a tasteless comment anyway we don't need to make crap up to boot.
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Fox focusing on what's important.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZyJX55XsAA2E_L?format=png&name=small)
focus? yeah, that's all they talked about all day sully ::) this country needs a little bit of good news, but you guys want all bad...gee, i wonder why
#don'tbepartoftheproblem
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focus? yeah, that's all they talked about all day sully ::) this country needs a little bit of good news, but you guys want all bad...gee, i wonder why
#don'tbepartoftheproblem
Seriously? It’s great news that unemployment and the S&P are rebounding. But to compare it historically to when other black people have been gunned down or been in the news is flat out disgusting.
And if you don’t understand that, you are part of the problem. “Hey the black guy may have been killed, BUT LOOK AT THE S&P!!!”
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That's not what he said, he reference the economy previously but he name checked Floyd in reference to his perception that we made big strides in equality this week. It was a tasteless comment anyway we don't need to make crap up to boot.
He was rambling back and forth...starting with the economy, switching to the protests, and then throwing in the comment about it being a great day for George. So maybe it was in reference to the protests or maybe it wasn’t, but even the more ‘charitable’ interpretation is a pretty fu€ked up comment.
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He was rambling back and forth...starting with the economy, switching to the protests, and then throwing in the comment about it being a great day for George. So maybe it was in reference to the protests or maybe it wasn’t, but even the more ‘charitable’ interpretation is a pretty fu€ked up comment.
He’s an idiot. Anyone defending him has their heads buried so far in the sand, they should be embarrassed. Take the L. Conservatism can stand strong post-Trump. He isn’t a conservative and he’s not worth defending.
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He was rambling back and forth...starting with the economy, switching to the protests, and then throwing in the comment about it being a great day for George. So maybe it was in reference to the protests or maybe it wasn’t, but even the more ‘charitable’ interpretation is a pretty fu€ked up comment.
Yeah if I misinterpreted it then I apologize but, as usual, it was a little hard to follow along if he was saying George would be proud of the protests. He talked about the economy, then said a couple sentences about needing equality, said it’s a great day for George and then talked about the economic bill he’s passing now.
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focus? yeah, that's all they talked about all day sully ::) this country needs a little bit of good news, but you guys want all bad...gee, i wonder why
#don'tbepartoftheproblem
Dude ... they're telling their viewers that awful events for black Americans are good for 401ks.
#FoxNewsistheproblem
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focus? yeah, that's all they talked about all day sully ::) this country needs a little bit of good news, but you guys want all bad...gee, i wonder why
#don'tbepartoftheproblem
You're so so tone deaf.
The good news about this graphic is that if we want the economy to go up all we have to do is sacrifice more black people!
#FINanciALsolution
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Dude ... they're telling their viewers that awful events for black Americans are good for 401ks.
#FoxNewsistheproblem
No they weren’t but your networks of “ experts” were predicting 20 million unemployed, inflated numbers...blah blah so by celebrating bad upon all of our country translates to being more what? And it looks to me like there have been “bad events”:for a lot more than African Americans I’ve seen a lot of suffering, injuries, loss of businesses and pain to Asians, Hispanics, Greeks, French, Chinese, Japanese Canadians...oh, and even caucasians
#tunnelvision
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Conservatism can stand strong post-Trump. He isn’t a conservative and he’s not worth defending.
I'm not so sure. Who's left in the Republican party that is actually a conservative? Mitt Romney maybe? The R's are now the party of Trumpism. McConnell, Graham, McCarthy...they've all backed Trump 100%. I doubt the base, who has been thrown increasingly bloody red meat for the last 10 years, is going to let them go back to being traditional conservatives in the mold of George Will, Bob Dole, or John McCain.
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I'm not so sure. Who's left in the Republican party that is actually a conservative? Mitt Romney maybe? The R's are now the party of Trumpism. McConnell, Graham, McCarthy...they've all backed Trump 100%. I doubt the base, who has been thrown increasingly bloody red meat for the last 10 years, is going to let them go back to being traditional conservatives in the mold of George Will, Bob Dole, or John McCain.
I said it can. Will it? They have a choice
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No they weren’t but your networks of “ experts” were predicting 20 million unemployed, inflated numbers...blah blah so by celebrating bad upon all of our country translates to being more what? And it looks to me like there have been “bad events”:for a lot more than African Americans I’ve seen a lot of suffering, injuries, loss of businesses and pain to Asians, Hispanics, Greeks, French, Chinese, Japanese Canadians...oh, and even caucasians
#tunnelvision
Lots of Caucasians getting murdered by cops just for being Caucasian. We’ll give you a second - or a decade - and maybe you can come up with an example, and then we can have a vigil.
Fox focusing on what's important.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZyJX55XsAA2E_L?format=png&name=small)
We’ve seen a lot of effed up shyte this past week, and that graphic might have been the biggest example of effed up shyte we’ve seen.
So the point Trump News is trying to make is that every time there has been a high-profile case of brutal treatment of a black person, it’s good for the market ... and lucky for everyone, this one was the best yet?
And here’s hoping a new record can be set next time ... which will probably be next week. Yay!
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focus? yeah, that's all they talked about all day sully ::) this country needs a little bit of good news, but you guys want all bad...gee, i wonder why
#don'tbepartoftheproblem
If you think a graphic showing that the stock market going up after high profile black deaths you are most definitely part of the problem and an awful human being.
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No they weren’t but your networks of “ experts” were predicting 20 million unemployed, inflated numbers...blah blah so by celebrating bad upon all of our country translates to being more what? And it looks to me like there have been “bad events”:for a lot more than African Americans I’ve seen a lot of suffering, injuries, loss of businesses and pain to Asians, Hispanics, Greeks, French, Chinese, Japanese Canadians...oh, and even caucasians
#tunnelvision
Rocket, the other networks weren't predicting 20 million unemployed, all major economists including government organizations, regardless of political affiliation or bias, were predicting that number. It was a shock where it came in, which is why the stock market did so well. Every news organization I saw positively reported on the unemployment numbers as a major story.
Only 1 network thought it was a good idea to put up a graphic showing how assassinations or police brutality against African Americans, correlates with an increase in the S&P500. This is one of the times where everyone should agree, that was appalling and moronic. Zero justification for such an action.
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Not only was that graphic reprehensible for all the reasons already discussed, but it was stoopid.
I mean, who would even think of such a weird, creepy correlation?
Why leave out dozens of other high-profile cases? Where was Breanna Taylor? Tamir Rice? Eric Garner? Philando Castile? Did the performance of the market not matter those days? How did the market do after Malcolm X was assassinated?
What point could Trump News possibly have been trying to make with that graphic? "With any luck, we'll get another great day for our 401k next a cop chokes the life out of a black person on national TV!"
Maybe we need to check what the market did each day Trump has said or done something racist. It would be about as relevant. Oh wait ... that would be too damn many days to track, so never mind.
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He’s an idiot. Anyone defending him has their heads buried so far in the sand, they should be embarrassed. Take the L. Conservatism can stand strong post-Trump. He isn’t a conservative and he’s not worth defending.
Exactly! Trump is not conservative he is a facist idiot
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Rocket, the other networks weren't predicting 20 million unemployed, all major economists including government organizations, regardless of political affiliation or bias, were predicting that number. It was a shock where it came in, which is why the stock market did so well. Every news organization I saw positively reported on the unemployment numbers as a major story.
Only 1 network thought it was a good idea to put up a graphic showing how assassinations or police brutality against African Americans, correlates with an increase in the S&P500. This is one of the times where everyone should agree, that was appalling and moronic. Zero justification for such an action.
Exactly. I think the unemployment and stock market numbers are great! I hope they last.
But weirdly putting them in this type of comparison was in insanely poor taste. I would have hoped even rocket would have recognized that, but alas...
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https://www.theonion.com/buffalo-police-request-reinforcements-until-elderly-man-1843925008
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"Man who trains San Jose Police about bias, severely injured by riot gun..."
https://abc7news.com/amp/san-jose-police-george-floyd-protest-bay-area-shot-by-during/6234212/?__twitter_impression=true
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Here is a rundown of the horrific actions by Charlotte police in breaking up a peaceful protest Tuesday:
A video recorded by Queen City Nerve, an alternative newspaper, appears to show a mass of demonstrators walking near 4th and College streets in uptown when police released chemical agents on the crowd. Protesters turned to go in the other direction, but officers on that side blocked their path, also using chemical agents.
Samuel Walker, a nationally-known criminal justice professor at the University of Nebraska at Omaha, criticized the police practice of containing protesters in a limited area.
“If you want the crowd to disperse, you have to give them an exit route,” Walker said. “If you’ve confined them to an area, they have no place to go. And then you tear gas them? That’s just wrong.”
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https://www.mediaite.com/online/trump-sets-one-day-personal-record-with-a-staggering-200-twitter-posts-amid-economic-public-health-and-racial-justice-crises/
From the article:
Just before 10:00 p.m., he retweeted a two-day old video of a right-wing pundit dismissing George Floyd as “no hero” and saying that the idea “[Floyd] has been held up as a martyr sickens me.” Minutes later, Trump shared a doctored video about Democratic presidential nominee Joe Biden that Politifact has confirmed is false. Trump’s final post in this Friday Twitter deluge involved plugging a book by a black campaign supporter, who has come under ethics scrutiny for running a non-profit that holds dubious “cash giveaways” in African-American communities all while touting Trump to the hopeful attendees.
So let's see:
Just in the space of those 3 tweets (out of the 200 he sent Friday), the Racist In Tweet cheered on disparaging remarks about George Floyd ... the Liar In Tweet shared a fake video of his political enemy ... and the Charlatan In Tweet praised a fellow scam artist.
Ladies and gentlemen, the President of the United States.
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From the article:
This needs to go somewhere else. St least try to stay on topic 82.
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Here is a rundown of the horrific actions by Charlotte police in breaking up a peaceful protest Tuesday:
A video recorded by Queen City Nerve, an alternative newspaper, appears to show a mass of demonstrators walking near 4th and College streets in uptown when police released chemical agents on the crowd. Protesters turned to go in the other direction, but officers on that side blocked their path, also using chemical agents.
Samuel Walker, a nationally-known criminal justice professor at the University of Nebraska at Omaha, criticized the police practice of containing protesters in a limited area.
“If you want the crowd to disperse, you have to give them an exit route,” Walker said. “If you’ve confined them to an area, they have no place to go. And then you tear gas them? That’s just wrong.”
the practice known as "kettling"
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This needs to go somewhere else. St least try to stay on topic 82.
Sorry. Meant it for the Protests thread.
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@uspresstracker: OUR LATEST DATA AS OF 9:30PM ET JUNE 4
*300+ total press freedom incidents*
49+ arrests
192 assaults (160 by police)
42 equipment/newsroom damage
Assault category breakdown:
69 physical attacks (43 by cops)
43 tear gassings
24 pepper sprayings
77 rubber bullets/projectiles
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Fox News has issued an apology for the S&P graphic.
rocket immediately switches over to OAN.
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Some positive protest stories:
Harvard, Nebraska, Black population of ONE.... Jermaine Guinyard...
https://journalstar.com/news/state-and-regional/nebraska/we-won-t-allow-that-foolishness-in-our-small-town-in-the-heart-of-nebraska/article_0e29250f-d359-514d-9eed-d01e051216de.amp.html?__twitter_impression=true
O'Fallon, MO, 17 year old Jalen Thompson...
https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/columns/joe-holleman/wise-beyond-his-years-local-student-activist-jalen-thompson-grabs-national-spotlight/article_fec0e338-41eb-57e4-812a-6eaa98bd4e6b.amp.html?utm_campaign=snd-autopilot&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter_stltoday&__twitter_impression=true
These particular geographies stand out quite a bit.
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Some positive protest stories:
Harvard, Nebraska, Black population of ONE.... Jermaine Guinyard...
https://journalstar.com/news/state-and-regional/nebraska/we-won-t-allow-that-foolishness-in-our-small-town-in-the-heart-of-nebraska/article_0e29250f-d359-514d-9eed-d01e051216de.amp.html?__twitter_impression=true
O'Fallon, MO, 17 year old Jalen Thompson...
https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/columns/joe-holleman/wise-beyond-his-years-local-student-activist-jalen-thompson-grabs-national-spotlight/article_fec0e338-41eb-57e4-812a-6eaa98bd4e6b.amp.html?utm_campaign=snd-autopilot&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter_stltoday&__twitter_impression=true
These particular geographies stand out quite a bit.
They sound like two outstanding young men. Thanks for sharing.
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https://twitter.com/NutmegRadio/status/1269387049209139200?s=19
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https://twitter.com/NutmegRadio/status/1269387049209139200?s=19
Apparently there is a lot of work to be done in Buffalo. I just hope the local citizens see this and speak out.
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The NY Times takes a deep dive into Police Unions:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/06/us/police-unions-minneapolis-kroll.html#click=https://t.co/pWUlPGhHh4
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https://twitter.com/NutmegRadio/status/1269387049209139200?s=19
Rotten orchard
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Remember two prominent posters who declared DTJ as the best president during their lifetime, and have been weirdly silent the last 10 days. Weird.
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Remember two prominent posters who declared DTJ as the best president during their lifetime, and have been weirdly silent the last 10 days. Weird.
One of them also said Mattis was one of our greatest military leaders. So, he might be embarrassed or he might be busy arguing with himself.
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Rotten orchard
How do you reform this? And this department is as much the rule as the exception.
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I think when you are in an occupation with camaraderie you instinctually back the other guys' decisions, whatever they may be. I can't say the (big city) police departments aren't off base when they have an "us against the world" attitude.
We've asked them to be in that situation since the invention of law enforcement.
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I think when you are in an occupation with camaraderie you instinctually back the other guys' decisions, whatever they may be. I can't say the (big city) police departments aren't off base when they have an "us against the world" attitude.
We've asked them to be in that situation since the invention of law enforcement.
Nah. We can acknowledge that the job is difficult. We can say that society was too happy to turn the other way and let this insane police culture go too far. But we didn’t “ask” them to lose perspective to the point where the sole agents of legally authorized use of force fill their diapers because colleagues are being punished for abusing an elderly man. And I’m not sure what you’re getting at with the double negative in the “big city” thing.
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https://t.co/d7yT8HbjAf (https://t.co/d7yT8HbjAf)
If everyone on this website could put their post into this template before they post, that would be great.....thanks in advance.
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I think when you are in an occupation with camaraderie you instinctually back the other guys' decisions, whatever they may be. I can't say the (big city) police departments aren't off base when they have an "us against the world" attitude.
We've asked them to be in that situation since the invention of law enforcement.
Police that have an "us against the world" attitude are way off base. We practically fetishize law enforcement in this country. We call them heroes, honor them at sporting events and public gatherings, and exult them in countless ways. Poll after poll shows a majority of Americans have a great deal of respect for and trust in law enforcement.
To be clear, a large majority deserve the respect and gratitude of the public. And yes, especially in the current environment, they're facing a lot of anti-police sentiment. But in reality, there is no reason for law enforcement to believe it's them against the world. Even now, the majority of the public supports law enforcement.
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Police that have an "us against the world" attitude are way off base. We practically fetishize law enforcement in this country.
But in reality, there is no reason for law enforcement to believe it's them against the world. Even now, the majority of the public supports law enforcement.
That's why I added the "big city police" to the sentence. Leave the big cities, and you've got suburbs and farmland. Not to say those places can't be dangerous, but .. if you're a cop in the "bad part of town" and you see criminal behavior every single day .. it's not hard to get to "us against the world."
Whether society would rather the police not have an "us against the world" attitude is irrelevant. Mix in these ingredients, and that's what you'll have.
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That's why I added the "big city police" to the sentence. Leave the big cities, and you've got suburbs and farmland. Not to say those places can't be dangerous, but .. if you're a cop in the "bad part of town" and you see criminal behavior every single day .. it's not hard to get to "us against the world."
Whether society would rather the police not have an "us against the world" attitude is irrelevant. Mix in these ingredients, and that's what you'll have.
Well .... that's a bit different. Yes, cops frequently are dealing with the worst people. Or, more often, dealing with people at their worst. That's the gig.
But that shouldn't be an excuse for fostering an "us vs the world" environment. That falls on the culture within the police departments, not any external reality.
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The NY Times takes a deep dive into Police Unions:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/06/us/police-unions-minneapolis-kroll.html#click=https://t.co/pWUlPGhHh4
Most of our cities are run by democrat machines that include democrat led police and teacher’s unions as part of their power structure. This has been true for decades. When problems are “systemic” it’s fair to ask - who benefits most from that system? As long as educators care more for its union members than its students, as long as law enforcement cares more for its union members that its citizens and as long as both are enabled by/in cahoots with city hall talk about systemic change will be just that - talk.
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A different perspective the vast majority here will disagree with.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtPfoEvNJ74
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Most of our cities are run by democrat machines that include democrat led police and teacher’s unions as part of their power structure. This has been true for decades. When problems are “systemic” it’s fair to ask - who benefits most from that system? As long as educators care more for its union members than its students, as long as law enforcement cares more for its union members that its citizens and as long as both are enabled by/in cahoots with city hall talk about systemic change will be just that - talk.
We're talking about the need for systemic and cultural changes in our institutions and your response is "Blame the Dems" and other GOP talking points.
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Just FYI about Candace Owens:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candace_Owens (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candace_Owens)
The Guardian has described Owens as "ultra-conservative",[43] and New York magazine and the Columbia Journalism Review have described her as "right-wing".[44][45] The Daily Beast has called her views "far-right" and the Pacific Standard called her a member of the "alt-right", though she has rejected both terms.[4][46][47][48] She was influenced by the works of Ann Coulter, Milo Yiannopoulos, Ben Carson, and Thomas Sowell.[49]
Owens has said: "The left hates America, and Trump loves it."[50] She has said that the left is "destroying everything through this cultural Marxist ideology."[50] In late March 2020, Owen argued that the United States was suffering from a "doomsday cult" of liberal paranoia.[51]
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Most of our cities are run by democrat machines that include democrat led police and teacher’s unions as part of their power structure. This has been true for decades. When problems are “systemic” it’s fair to ask - who benefits most from that system? As long as educators care more for its union members than its students, as long as law enforcement cares more for its union members that its citizens and as long as both are enabled by/in cahoots with city hall talk about systemic change will be just that - talk.
There is no democrat party, Lenny, as I am sure that you know. It is called the Democratic Party.
But, your secret right-wing insult is noted.
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That's why I added the "big city police" to the sentence. Leave the big cities, and you've got suburbs and farmland. Not to say those places can't be dangerous, but .. if you're a cop in the "bad part of town" and you see criminal behavior every single day .. it's not hard to get to "us against the world."
Whether society would rather the police not have an "us against the world" attitude is irrelevant. Mix in these ingredients, and that's what you'll have.
I have said this here before. If arresting an uncooperative person, there is no way to be nice. It will be a violent encounter. No way around that fact. Once the person is subdued and in handcuffs, however, any further violence by police is criminal assault. An us against them attitude is no excuse.
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A different perspective the vast majority here will disagree with.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtPfoEvNJ74
Basically she is saying "I'm not saying he deserves it....but he kinda deserves it."
Yeah he had a lot of faults. But he was killed.
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Basically she is saying "I'm not saying he deserves it....but he kinda deserves it."
Yeah he had a lot of faults. But he was killed.
In summary, "George Floyd committed a crime 12 years ago, so why are people making a big deal about cops killing him?"
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We're talking about the need for systemic and cultural changes in our institutions and your response is "Blame the Dems" and other GOP talking points.
... and to do that is to replace Trump with Biden and all that will come to pass. Let's be honest. That is the reason for all the protest, not George Floyd. Yet even if Biden wins in November there will be no systemic or cultural changes. It will remain just as it was under Obama.
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A different perspective the vast majority here will disagree with.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtPfoEvNJ74
I think she misunderstands the entire situation when she talks about everybody trying to turn George Floyd into a “hero” or a “martyr.”
George Floyd is simply a symbol of the way black Americans are treated in our society, plain and simple. So yeah – his name is out there and will be remembered for a long time. But I doubt anybody other than perhaps his family will remember him as any sort of hero.
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Most of our cities are run by democrat machines that include democrat led police and teacher’s unions as part of their power structure. This has been true for decades. When problems are “systemic” it’s fair to ask - who benefits most from that system? As long as educators care more for its union members than its students, as long as law enforcement cares more for its union members that its citizens and as long as both are enabled by/in cahoots with city hall talk about systemic change will be just that - talk.
You're right that Democrats need to have a come to Jesus moment about their role in getting us here. Popular Democratic positions on policing from the 90s combined with Democratic labor policies as applied to public-sector unions have played a large role in where we are.
But this has been cemented by the lack of incentive for either party to turn it around. A couple of examples:
Act 10 in Wisconsin was a Republican policy to take on public unions but exempted police and fire unions. Taking on police unions, in addition to being a huge political liability, doesn't fit the Repulican 'law and order' agenda, and they know that their constituents would have viewed the inevitable protests very differently if cops were marching alongside teachers. Without research, I would imagine that Wisconsin isn't the only example of a state that has talked a big anti-public sector union game while allowing police unions to sneak out the side door.
Another example is Rudy Giulani leading an NYC protest of thousands of off-duty cops against then mayor David Dinkins's attempt to establish an independent review board of the police department in 1992. As mayor he then went on to enact policies that significantly expanded officer discretion and resisted calls to enact civil liberty protections.
Make no mistake, ensuring that no one polices the police has been a bipartisan project.
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... and to do that is to replace Trump with Biden and all that will come to pass. Let's be honest. That is the reason for all the protest, not George Floyd. Yet even if Biden wins in November there will be no systemic or cultural changes. It will remain just as it was under Obama.
Yes, literally everything is about Trump.
I'm sorry that you've been fooled into having such a narrow perspective.
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Just FYI about Candace Owens:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candace_Owens (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candace_Owens)
The Guardian has described Owens as "ultra-conservative",[43] and New York magazine and the Columbia Journalism Review have described her as "right-wing".[44][45] The Daily Beast has called her views "far-right" and the Pacific Standard called her a member of the "alt-right", though she has rejected both terms.[4][46][47][48] She was influenced by the works of Ann Coulter, Milo Yiannopoulos, Ben Carson, and Thomas Sowell.[49]
Owens has said: "The left hates America, and Trump loves it."[50] She has said that the left is "destroying everything through this cultural Marxist ideology."[50] In late March 2020, Owen argued that the United States was suffering from a "doomsday cult" of liberal paranoia.[51]
Wow from all those "middle of the road publications". Is her view any less valid than one poster here that stated burglary, embezzlement and perjury should no longer be crimes punished with imprisonment? Isn't that what free debate should be about? But no, according to one of our Moderators her voice does not count because she is too conservative.
The Black Lives Matter movement is a fraud. Will the funeral Of Captain Dorn be on national television? Will Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson eulogize him? I guess some Black Lives don't matter.
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Most of our cities are run by democrat machines that include democrat led police and teacher’s unions as part of their power structure. This has been true for decades. When problems are “systemic” it’s fair to ask - who benefits most from that system? As long as educators care more for its union members than its students, as long as law enforcement cares more for its union members that its citizens and as long as both are enabled by/in cahoots with city hall talk about systemic change will be just that - talk.
Lenny you’re broader point about the citizens holding the government accountable to what we want is fair. However to pretending like switching the letter next to a mayors name results in better cities is lazy.
New York is a good example of that as someone else pointed out.
And for the others thinking this is just an issue with our cities—it’s not. We all have a part in what this has become.
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Yes, literally everything is about Trump.
I'm sorry that you've been fooled into having such a narrow perspective.
I guess all the anti Trump posts here were just fooling.
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Wow from all those "middle of the road publications". Is her view any less valid than one poster here that stated burglary, embezzlement and perjury should no longer be crimes punished with imprisonment? Isn't that what free debate should be about? But no, according to one of our Moderators her voice does not count because she is too conservative.
I said none of those things. Frankly, I watched the video and agreed with most of what she said.
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Lenny you’re broader point about the citizens holding the government accountable to what we want is fair. However to pretending like switching the letter next to a mayors name results in better cities is lazy.
New York is a good example of that as someone else pointed out.
And for the others thinking this is just an issue with our cities—it’s not. We all have a part in what this has become.
You are right. Look at what happened to that black jogger in Georgia. The police did not kill him, but they sure looked the other way when they clearly knew who killed him and did nothing until it was exposed on video, but neither political side is interested in coming together and solving this. Its all about maintaining or gaining power. We live in crazy times.
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I said none of those things. Frankly, I watched the video and agreed with most of what she said.
Then why the FYI quoting all those publications?
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Then why the FYI quoting all those publications?
I think it's important to know who people are, their history, education, biases, and motivations, so I can make an informed decision on their veracity.
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You are right. Look at what happened to that black jogger in Georgia. The police did not kill him, but they sure looked the other way when they clearly knew who killed him and did nothing until it was exposed on video, but neither political side is interested in coming together and solving this. Its all about maintaining or gaining power. We live in crazy times.
Nonsense.
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I guess all the anti Trump posts here were just fooling.
I can only speak for myself, but I've never written that Trump is responsible for George Floyd's death or the systemic failures that allowed it or others like it to happen. I haven't blamed or exonerated either political party or any single politician, and I haven't said either political party or any politician can fix it.
I have said these are cultural and societal issues that will take a lot of time and hard work by as many people as possible to repair.
The real enemy of that change isn't Donald Trump or Democratic mayors. It isn't any one person or political party. It's those who want to take the easy way out by claiming 1) there isn't really a problem, 2) if there is a problem, it's someone else's problem or 3) there's a problem, but me and my side aren't to blame and we're not responsible for fixing it.
I've seen examples of all three here today.
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You are right. Look at what happened to that black jogger in Georgia. The police did not kill him, but they sure looked the other way when they clearly knew who killed him and did nothing until it was exposed on video, but neither political side is interested in coming together and solving this. Its all about maintaining or gaining power. We live in crazy times.
Someone is having a Sunday Funday
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Wow from all those "middle of the road publications". Is her view any less valid than one poster here that stated burglary, embezzlement and perjury should no longer be crimes punished with imprisonment? Isn't that what free debate should be about? But no, according to one of our Moderators her voice does not count because she is too conservative.
The Black Lives Matter movement is a fraud. Will the funeral Of Captain Dorn be on national television? Will Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson eulogize him? I guess some Black Lives don't matter.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/l3q2K5jinAlChoCLS/giphy.gif)
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We're talking about the need for systemic and cultural changes in our institutions and your response is "Blame the Dems" and other GOP talking points.
Who said anything about Republicans? Not me. But the questions (which you evidently don’t want to deal with) remain - who is running our cities? Who has been running them for the past several decades? If you don’t like the “systems” put in place in our cities and want systemic change does it make any sense to trust those who have established the “systems“ and benefit from them? Again, not me.
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Lenny you’re broader point about the citizens holding the government accountable to what we want is fair. However to pretending like switching the letter next to a mayors name results in better cities is lazy.
New York is a good example of that as someone else pointed out.
And for the others thinking this is just an issue with our cities—it’s not. We all have a part in what this has become.
Frenns
Where did I ever say switching “Ds” to “Rs” was a solution.
My only point is when you (pretty much) have a monopoly and the choice is between systemic change and appeasing powerful members of your coalition that allows you to maintain that monopoly (ie, power) - the choice is easy.
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Who said anything about Republicans? Not me. But the questions (which you evidently don’t want to deal with) remain - who is running our cities? Who has been running them for the past several decades? If you don’t like the “systems” put in place in our cities and want systemic change does it make any sense to trust those who have established the “systems“ and benefit from them? Again, not me.
I didn't say you wrote anything about Republicans, I said you give Republican talking points. Which you did. Here were are having a discussion about failures in our systems of policing and justice, and you drag in the teachers unions. What do teachers unions have to do with law enforcement culture? Nothing, of course. But they're a popular bogeyman for the right.
As already has been pointed out, this isn't a big city problem. Bad policing occurs in the suburbs and rural America as well. Philandro Castille was killed in a suburb. Walter Scott was killed in a suburb. Jordan Edwards was killed in a suburb. Antwon Rose was killed in a suburb. You've chosen to focus in big cities, and I can imagine only one reason why.
Also, Lenny, I know you're smart enough to realize that plenty of policies that impact life in major cities come not from mayors' offices, but state capitols and the federal government. If you insist, I'll list off a half dozen or more Republican policies that have been detrimental to lower-income, inner-city communities. But I'd rather not, because that would miss the point as much as your post.
Try as you might, this isn't a Blue vs Red issue. There's plenty of blame to go around for leadership of both parties at all levels of government for how we got here. Pointing fingers at one side only isn't going to solve anything.
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Frenns
Where did I ever say switching “Ds” to “Rs” was a solution.
My only point is when you (pretty much) have a monopoly and the choice is between systemic change and appeasing powerful members of your coalition that allows you to maintain that monopoly (ie, power) - the choice is easy.
Fair. The preservation of the power brokers is definitely a problem. I would argue though it’s less about politics and more about priorities. Case in point my small town has been dominated by Ds and we have a looming fiscal crisis. The party actually split to try to address it. But it’s like you say, the coalitions are causing it to be quite difficult to throw the mayor out and start anew. The crisis will likely have to come before it happens.
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The Black Lives Matter movement is a fraud. Will the funeral Of Captain Dorn be on national television? Will Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson eulogize him? I guess some Black Lives don't matter.
Making conservative arguments is part of the give and take of debate. However, if those arguments aren't grounded in reality, how does one even have a debate? Her point of view is, "The left hates America, and Trump loves it," neither of which is remotely true. There is no way to have a rational conversation with such a person.
For the record, I don't think conservatives hate America either, they simply have a very different vision for the country, one that has more in common with the 1950's, than I do.
And I am curious, why in your opinion is the BLM movement a fraud?
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... and to do that is to replace Trump with Biden and all that will come to pass. Let's be honest. That is the reason for all the protest, not George Floyd. Yet even if Biden wins in November there will be no systemic or cultural changes. It will remain just as it was under Obama.
Shaun King is a very left wing social media activist. Too left for me, but he said something that hit home. Some introspection on our part is necessary. Most of these acts by police are done in cities controlled by Democrats, in some cases for more than 100 years. If we do not like how the policing is going, why aren’t we changing it? We control the mayor’s office, the city councils, and ultimately the Chief of Police.
He brings up a salient point. We are the ones voting for this year after year, decade after decade.
https://twitter.com/shaunking/status/1268911183878410246?s=21
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Shaun King is a very left wing social media activist. Too left for me, but he said something that hit home. Some introspection on our part is necessary. Most of these acts by police are done in cities controlled by Democrats, in some cases for more than 100 years. If we do not like how the policing is going, why aren’t we changing it? We control the mayor’s office, the city councils, and ultimately the Chief of Police.
He brings up a salient point. We are the ones voting for this year after year, decade after decade.
https://twitter.com/shaunking/status/1268911183878410246?s=21
Oh what a bunch of horsesh*t. I was wondering when you were going to chime in with your two-bit “wisdom.”
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Good for Mitt.
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1269742303469600771/pu/vid/1280x720/yD8ISsbDzGsMay4Y.mp4?tag=10
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Oh what a bunch of horsesh*t. I was wondering when you were going to chime in with your two-bit “wisdom.”
If only Shaun King a cent of credibility.....
https://www.thedailybeast.com/shaun-king-keeps-raising-money-and-questions-about-where-it-goes-3
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My GF had the Candace Owens video sent to her by her mother (who isn’t especially political, she just had it shared on social media). I listened to it while on a long drive the other day without knowing it was Owens.
I understand her general “point” about putting a fresh coat of paint on otherwise unsavory characters in revisionist history. Or making heroes out of martyrs in pursuit of a ideology.
But that’s about it. There is no greater movement to make George Floyd some flawless hero on any grand scale. There is pain and thoughts for his family. There are murals, sure, but that’s more related to his representation of what is wrong with the relationship between police and the black community, and the need for a catalyst for change. If a tourist to China (with a spotty background) had been killed by the government for some reason, they would take on a mythic, larger than expected legacy as catalyst/martyr/trigger for addressing the danger or issues of China. Say he was an alcoholic with a pair of DUIs and had been fired from a job recently and was drunk when the government took him into custody. That wouldn’t mean he was a perfect person but he still didn’t deserve to be callously killed, just like George Floyd.
More concerning, and what I immediately latched onto, is this is nowhere near the time nor the place. It’s very calculated and strategic red herring to discredit the movement or divert attention from the underlying issues or causes. And that’s dastardly. There’s plenty of plausible deniability to hide behind on that, but this isn’t opposition to a statue of Floyd being erected in a year or renaming a school or park after it. This is downplaying the validity over rallying around his death because he had a sketchy past and trying to instead overemphasize an issue that really isn’t pressing or that overarching
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Some here have already said it, but it needs to be said again. The police unions are a big part of this problem. Bad cops are protected the same way bad teachers, bad pilots, bad you name it. Unions were instrumental in building this country and preventing corporations from unduly trampling on our rights, but they have a bad side too. People that do not belong in their positions are allowed to stay. Any chance at reform has to start with the unions because they protect one and all, the competent and incompetent.
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Good for Mitt.
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1269742303469600771/pu/vid/1280x720/yD8ISsbDzGsMay4Y.mp4?tag=10
Bunker Boy will be tweetin’ up a storm tomorrow.
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Good for Mitt.
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1269742303469600771/pu/vid/1280x720/yD8ISsbDzGsMay4Y.mp4?tag=10
I think Mitt learned a lot from his foibles during his failed presidential race and the time following it. He was a successful Republican governor in one of the bluest states there is. He was an optimistic example of a strong moderate from that party, until he got swept way right as seems to be the game plan when it comes to presidential candidates. Glad to see he’s finding his way again.
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He also ran against a popular incumbent. That’s always an uphill battle.
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People that do not belong in their positions are allowed to stay. Any chance at reform has to start with the unions because they protect one and all, the competent and incompetent.
I've been critical of police union leadership because they generally suck. But, in fairness, unions can't really pick and choose who receives union benefits, including representation throughout the disciplinary process. They're legally required to provide it to all members as part of the union contract.
Decisions about who gets to stay and go ultimately aren't made by the union anyway. They're made by appointed police boards. Those boards, it can be said, often have too chummy of relationships with the departments they oversee.
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My GF had the Candace Owens video sent to her by her mother (who isn’t especially political, she just had it shared on social media). I listened to it while on a long drive the other day without knowing it was Owens.
I understand her general “point” about putting a fresh coat of paint on otherwise unsavory characters in revisionist history. Or making heroes out of martyrs in pursuit of a ideology.
But that’s about it. There is no greater movement to make George Floyd some flawless hero on any grand scale. There is pain and thoughts for his family. There are murals, sure, but that’s more related to his representation of what is wrong with the relationship between police and the black community, and the need for a catalyst for change. If a tourist to China (with a spotty background) had been killed by the government for some reason, they would take on a mythic, larger than expected legacy as catalyst/martyr/trigger for addressing the danger or issues of China. Say he was an alcoholic with a pair of DUIs and had been fired from a job recently and was drunk when the government took him into custody. That wouldn’t mean he was a perfect person but he still didn’t deserve to be callously killed, just like George Floyd.
More concerning, and what I immediately latched onto, is this is nowhere near the time nor the place. It’s very calculated and strategic red herring to discredit the movement or divert attention from the underlying issues or causes. And that’s dastardly. There’s plenty of plausible deniability to hide behind on that, but this isn’t opposition to a statue of Floyd being erected in a year or renaming a school or park after it. This is downplaying the validity over rallying around his death because he had a sketchy past and trying to instead overemphasize an issue that really isn’t pressing or that overarching
That’s a whole of words (including dastardly?) when you could have said she’s an pretty boy and terrible human being.
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Minneapolis City Council decides to dismantle the police department and instead create a new public safety system.
https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1269755811536015360?s=19
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My GF had the Candace Owens video sent to her by her mother (who isn’t especially political, she just had it shared on social media). I listened to it while on a long drive the other day without knowing it was Owens.
I understand her general “point” about putting a fresh coat of paint on otherwise unsavory characters in revisionist history. Or making heroes out of martyrs in pursuit of a ideology.
But that’s about it. There is no greater movement to make George Floyd some flawless hero on any grand scale. There is pain and thoughts for his family. There are murals, sure, but that’s more related to his representation of what is wrong with the relationship between police and the black community, and the need for a catalyst for change. If a tourist to China (with a spotty background) had been killed by the government for some reason, they would take on a mythic, larger than expected legacy as catalyst/martyr/trigger for addressing the danger or issues of China. Say he was an alcoholic with a pair of DUIs and had been fired from a job recently and was drunk when the government took him into custody. That wouldn’t mean he was a perfect person but he still didn’t deserve to be callously killed, just like George Floyd.
More concerning, and what I immediately latched onto, is this is nowhere near the time nor the place. It’s very calculated and strategic red herring to discredit the movement or divert attention from the underlying issues or causes. And that’s dastardly. There’s plenty of plausible deniability to hide behind on that, but this isn’t opposition to a statue of Floyd being erected in a year or renaming a school or park after it. This is downplaying the validity over rallying around his death because he had a sketchy past and trying to instead overemphasize an issue that really isn’t pressing or that overarching
Agreed. As I said earlier - using different words, but the same general sentiment - is that George Floyd is not being made into a hero or a martyr - he is a symbol of these protests against racial inequality in policing and criminal justice.
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I may have to join the church of Stone Cold Steve Austin.
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I may have to join the church of Stone Cold Steve Austin.
And that's the bottom line.
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Making conservative arguments is part of the give and take of debate. However, if those arguments aren't grounded in reality, how does one even have a debate? Her point of view is, "The left hates America, and Trump loves it," neither of which is remotely true. There is no way to have a rational conversation with such a person.
For the record, I don't think conservatives hate America either, they simply have a very different vision for the country, one that has more in common with the 1950's, than I do.
And I am curious, why in your opinion is the BLM movement a fraud?
Maybe the reason you haven’t got an answer yet is he and the missus were out for a Sunday drive.......
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Making conservative arguments is part of the give and take of debate. However, if those arguments aren't grounded in reality, how does one even have a debate? Her point of view is, "The left hates America, and Trump loves it," neither of which is remotely true. There is no way to have a rational conversation with such a person.
For the record, I don't think conservatives hate America either, they simply have a very different vision for the country, one that has more in common with the 1950's, than I do.
And I am curious, why in your opinion is the BLM movement a fraud?
I don't see any signs, posters or murals of Captain Dorn in the protest crowd. I guess a murdered retired black police officer is not a symbol of systemic racism; after all how could a black man become a police Captain in St. Louis of all places with all that systemic racism. In fact his murderer is still at large and the national press does not seem to care about that black life. Why has Black Lives Matter not cried out for justice in his case? Does Black Lives Matter even know who he is? If Black Lives do Matter why not his as well?
As highlighted in red: I could say the same of many of the posters in this thread. Am I right, you just said her arguments are not grounded in reality? Whose reality, yours or hers? Are her arguments any less valid than yours?
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Minneapolis City Council decides to dismantle the police department and instead create a new public safety system.
https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1269755811536015360?s=19
They did not disband the police department in Camden, NJ; just like they voted to do in Minneapolis.
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Oh what a bunch of horsesh*t. I was wondering when you were going to chime in with your two-bit “wisdom.”
Washington Monthly, a left of center magazine, provides the same wisdom. I realize it isn’t hard core left for some of you, but most definitely core to what was the Democratic Party.
We run the cities, we run the police departments. We allowed this. That isn’t BS.
https://washingtonmonthly.com/2020/06/06/democratic-mayors-and-city-councils-must-step-up-to-hold-police-accountable/
The changes start with the Democratic Party. I cannot think of the last riots that didn’t happen in a Democratically controlled city Involving police. Can you?
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I don't see any signs, posters or murals of Captain Dorn in the protest crowd. I guess a murdered retired black police officer is not a symbol of systemic racism; after all how could a black man become a police Captain in St. Louis of all places with all that systemic racism. In fact his murderer is still at large and the national press does not seem to care about that black life. Why has Black Lives Matter not cried out for justice in his case? Does Black Lives Matter even know who he is? If Black Lives do Matter why not his as well?
As highlighted in red: I could say the same of many of the posters in this thread. Am I right, you just said her arguments are not grounded in reality? Whose reality, yours or hers? Are her arguments any less valid than yours?
His murder is horrific and tragic, but it was not done by those who are paid to protect him. It was not done by those whose crimes or illicit activities in the line of duty are protected by that system of power or union structure.
If my apartment was broken into and robbed, it would be horrible. If it was done by the son of my landlord and his friends and my landlord refused to punish him or make it right in any way, that’s a completely different level of F’d up and worthy of elevated focus.
Saying that their mission of fighting against sanctioned systemic racism and murder by government employees is less valid cause they don’t care about ALL murder in the black community is a classic red herring.
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I don't see any signs, posters or murals of Captain Dorn in the protest crowd. I guess a murdered retired black police officer is not a symbol of systemic racism; after all how could a black man become a police Captain in St. Louis of all places with all that systemic racism. In fact his murderer is still at large and the national press does not seem to care about that black life. Why has Black Lives Matter not cried out for justice in his case? Does Black Lives Matter even know who he is? If Black Lives do Matter why not his as well?
No, he isn't a symbol of systemic racism.
https://www.khou.com/article/news/crime/david-dorn-murder-man-charged/63-5ed35511-2115-4200-ba5c-b06feaedd1d8
Looks like it was a robbery/murder.
BLM is a movement against systematic racism. The murder was, at the time of your posting, unsolved. Why would they focus on it in particular? Claiming that if they don't pay attention to the murder of every single black person equally then the movement is a fraud is absurd. And trying to claim that the fact that a black man became a police captain shows their isn't systematic racism is equally absurd.
As highlighted in red: I could say the same of many of the posters in this thread. Am I right, you just said her arguments are not grounded in reality? Whose reality, yours or hers? Are her arguments any less valid than yours?
Yes, her quotes are not grounded in reality. And I'm sorry, there aren't multiple realities. And yes, my arguments are far more valid than hers. Not all arguments are equally valid.
As Isaac Asimov said, "There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."
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I don't see any signs, posters or murals of Captain Dorn in the protest crowd. I guess a murdered retired black police officer is not a symbol of systemic racism; after all how could a black man become a police Captain in St. Louis of all places with all that systemic racism. In fact his murderer is still at large and the national press does not seem to care about that black life. Why has Black Lives Matter not cried out for justice in his case? Does Black Lives Matter even know who he is? If Black Lives do Matter why not his as well?
As highlighted in red: I could say the same of many of the posters in this thread. Am I right, you just said her arguments are not grounded in reality? Whose reality, yours or hers? Are her arguments any less valid than yours?
1. You have a fundamental misunderstanding of what BLM is and why it exists. Perhaps do a little research before declaring it a fraud. Your complaints are tantamount to saying the NTSB is a fraud because it fails to act on allegations of securities fraud.
2. Yes, her arguments are less valid, because her arguments are not supported by actual facts and evidence.
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Shaun King is a very left wing social media activist. Too left for me, but he said something that hit home. Some introspection on our part is necessary. Most of these acts by police are done in cities controlled by Democrats, in some cases for more than 100 years. If we do not like how the policing is going, why aren’t we changing it? We control the mayor’s office, the city councils, and ultimately the Chief of Police.
He brings up a salient point. We are the ones voting for this year after year, decade after decade.
https://twitter.com/shaunking/status/1268911183878410246?s=21
“All Lives Matter, not just those of one part of the population.” –ChicosBailBonds
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=48369.msg754224#msg754224
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I cannot think of the last riots that didn’t happen in a Democratically controlled city Involving police. Can you?
Ferguson, 2014
Anaheim, 2012 and 2017 (weird you don't remember these ;))
But again, keep missing the point because you want to blame a party rather than deal with the problem, which has nothing to do with either political party.
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"Every single issue that's ever come up in America is the fault of the Democrats we've voted into office. If there's a Democrat in the White House, simple, even the smallest, most local issue is the fault of the federal government. If it's a worldwide issue but we have a Republican in the White House, it's too bad we had to vote Democrats into office in the cities these issues took place!"
Signed,
The non-partisan-yet-only-ever-voted-for-Democrats-ever-in-my-life-Chicago Cubs, Arizona Cardinals fan who lives in IL and is looking to soon retire in TN.
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Ben Carson, June 7, 2020:
"My personal feeling is, if those players were to come out and say, ‘We love our nation, we are patriots, we love our flag, we honor the memory of those who died to give us our freedom, but we are protesting some of the brutality that has occurred, and that’s why we're doing this,’ I think it would solve the problem,” Carson said. “And I suggest that they do that.”
Colin Kaepernick, September 2016:
“I realize men and women of the military go out and sacrifice their lives and put their selves in harm’s way for my freedom of speech and my freedoms in this country and my freedom to take a seat or take a knee,” Kaepernick said. “I’m not anti-America. I love America. I love people. That’s why I’m doing this. I want to help make America better. I think having these conversations helps everybody have a better understanding of where everybody is coming from."
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His murder is horrific and tragic, but it was not done by those who are paid to protect him. It was not done by those whose crimes or illicit activities in the line of duty are protected by that system of power or union structure.
If my apartment was broken into and robbed, it would be horrible. If it was done by the son of my landlord and his friends and my landlord refused to punish him or make it right in any way, that’s a completely different level of F’d up and worthy of elevated focus.
Saying that their mission of fighting against sanctioned systemic racism and murder by government employees is less valid cause they don’t care about ALL murder in the black community is a classic red herring.
So, since he was not killed by the cops or white cops in particular his black life does not matter. So why isn't the movement called Black Lives Matter only if your killed by cops.
That they don't care about all murder in the black community is a pretty alarming admission.
Well, according to Hards-Alum that should not be a crime punishable with imprisonment even if it was the landlords son and his friends. If you live in Minneapolis now potentially with no police who do you turn to, some community militia?
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So, since he was not killed by the cops or white cops in particular his black life does not matter. So why isn't the movement called Black Lives Matter only if your killed by cops.
That they don't care about all murder in the black community is a pretty alarming admission.
I know you don’t care cause it doesn’t fit your agenda or point, but you don’t get to determine what a group was created for and stand for and ignore their purpose.
In their words “Black Lives Matter began as a call to action in response to state-sanctioned violence and anti-Black racism. Our intention from the very beginning was to connect Black people from all over the world who have a shared desire for justice to act together in their communities. The impetus for that commitment was, and still is, the rampant and deliberate violence inflicted on us by the state”
They never had a expressed purpose to stop all murder or crime within the black community. That is a massive and overwhelming undertaking. They specifically targeted violence and murder against the black community by agents of the state/government. That doesn’t make their mission any less invalid cause you think murder is murder and why should they care about the police killing an unarmed black man when gang violence kills plenty everyday or some other classic talking point.
YOUVE decided they don’t care about “all murder” in the black community. All I did was point out the flaw in your argument that they were a fraud by stating they never were organized for the purpose you claim.
I hope you also declare organizations formed to stop child sex trafficking as frauds and deride them for the abhorrent stance of not trying to stop ALL sex trafficking of adults as well.
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Ferguson, 2014
Anaheim, 2012 and 2017 (weird you don't remember these ;))
But again, keep missing the point because you want to blame a party rather than deal with the problem, which has nothing to do with either political party.
No, I don’t remember Anaheim and when I look up major riots in the USA since 1900 it doesn’t show up.
https://www.infoplease.com/us/history/major-race-riots-us
Ferguson riots were mostly from people coming in from St Louis. Ferguson is also an example of a city not interested in its own direction. 12% voter turnout and the mayor ran unopposed.
I am not blaming a party, I am saying we have the power to change things. The GOP is a gnat in big cities. They have no voting power. We have the control, if we are not happy then we need to make the changes. The people that can make the changes are the voters that are eligible to vote where the policing problems are happening. Those places happen to be heavily Democratic, and we need to be the agents of change.
Instead of you and Wadesworld and FluffyBlueMonster being so defensive, why not seek the higher ground and understand the opportunity and change agents we can become? Whom do you expect to make the changes in our cities? People that don’t live there? Not going to happen.
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“All Lives Matter, not just those of one part of the population.” –ChicosBailBonds
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=48369.msg754224#msg754224
Do you know who JK Rowling is?
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Some here have already said it, but it needs to be said again. The police unions are a big part of this problem. Bad cops are protected the same way bad teachers, bad pilots, bad you name it. Unions were instrumental in building this country and preventing corporations from unduly trampling on our rights, but they have a bad side too. People that do not belong in their positions are allowed to stay. Any chance at reform has to start with the unions because they protect one and all, the competent and incompetent.
When was the last time you saw a teacher beat a kid to death, or crack his skull open on the concrete, and the union come in and protest his suspension? When teachers commit crimes (e.g. assault on a student) they are arrested, terminated, and thrown in jail.
Equating the two is moronic. Being a bad teacher is a subjective decision, most people are bad at their job, but are better at it than possible replacements so they are not fired.
We are not talking about a bad cop, maybe missing a crime, or snoozing on highway ticket duty, we are talking about murdering people. When they murder someone, or assault someone, they are being defended by their peers. No where near a similar aspect. It is a disingenuous statement to compare the two.
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Protest/March in Philly over the weekend:
https://twitter.com/BradfordPearson/status/1269337799523733504
Massive to say the absolute least.
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I don't see any signs, posters or murals of Captain Dorn in the protest crowd. I guess a murdered retired black police officer is not a symbol of systemic racism; after all how could a black man become a police Captain in St. Louis of all places with all that systemic racism. In fact his murderer is still at large and the national press does not seem to care about that black life. Why has Black Lives Matter not cried out for justice in his case? Does Black Lives Matter even know who he is? If Black Lives do Matter why not his as well?
As highlighted in red: I could say the same of many of the posters in this thread. Am I right, you just said her arguments are not grounded in reality? Whose reality, yours or hers? Are her arguments any less valid than yours?
Actually a suspect was apprehended and charged in the Dorn case. The public and protestors helped close the case as well as the media, which posted security camera video of multiple people which helped lead to an arrest.
A march was held in Dorn's honor Thursday.
https://www.kmov.com/news/march-held-to-honor-police-captain-david-dorn-who-was-killed-by-looters/article_dde8548c-a6a7-11ea-8b9b-4f295af97ab2.html
https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/charges-filed-in-murder-of-retired-st-louis-police-captain-david-dorn/article_3e95441e-4126-520b-9c41-fbbcbf889e6c.html
Nope, no racism at all in the St. Louis Police Department. (Teal)
https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1269755811536015360?s=19
http://www.stlamerican.com/news/editorials/let-s-stop-enabling-jeff-roorda-to-spew-hateful-lies/article_1cb0d894-430a-11ea-b5a8-97a25f87f786.html
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jun/19/st-louis-prosecutor-refuses-to-accept-cases-from-police-officers-accused-of-racism
Please by all means google Luther Hall St. Louis Police.
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No, I don’t remember Anaheim and when I look up major riots in the USA since 1900 it doesn’t show up.
https://www.infoplease.com/us/history/major-race-riots-us
Ferguson riots were mostly from people coming in from St Louis. Ferguson is also an example of a city not interested in its own direction. 12% voter turnout and the mayor ran unopposed.
I am not blaming a party, I am saying we have the power to change things. The GOP is a gnat in big cities. They have no voting power. We have the control, if we are not happy then we need to make the changes. The people that can make the changes are the voters that are eligible to vote where the policing problems are happening. Those places happen to be heavily Democratic, and we need to be the agents of change.
Instead of you and Wadesworld and FluffyBlueMonster being so defensive, why not seek the higher ground and understand the opportunity and change agents we can become? Whom do you expect to make the changes in our cities? People that don’t live there? Not going to happen.
Goal Post SHIFT!
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Do you know who JK Rowling is?
Whatabout...
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Washington Monthly, a left of center magazine, provides the same wisdom. I realize it isn’t hard core left for some of you, but most definitely core to what was the Democratic Party.
We run the cities, we run the police departments. We allowed this. That isn’t BS.
https://washingtonmonthly.com/2020/06/06/democratic-mayors-and-city-councils-must-step-up-to-hold-police-accountable/
The changes start with the Democratic Party. I cannot think of the last riots that didn’t happen in a Democratically controlled city Involving police. Can you?
Riots? I can think of police violence that has occurred in cities controlled by Republicans. Why isn't their issue to fix? The fact is that it is a systemic problem that requires a lot of people coming together to fix it. To say "WeLl ThE DeMoCrAtS rUn BiG cItIeS tHeReFoRe ThEy HaVe To FiX iT," is simplistic nonsense that is used by people like you to shift blame from where the problem actually exits.
Oh and what's with this "we" stuff? Why are you being so tribal?
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So, since he was not killed by the cops or white cops in particular his black life does not matter. So why isn't the movement called Black Lives Matter only if your killed by cops.
That they don't care about all murder in the black community is a pretty alarming admission.
Well, according to Hards-Alum that should not be a crime punishable with imprisonment even if it was the landlords son and his friends. If you live in Minneapolis now potentially with no police who do you turn to, some community militia?
Hoo boy.
Look, the whole point of the movement is the issue of systemic racism that exists in law enforcement. Which is frankly pretty clear. Yes, it is tragic that Captain Dorn was murdered. Yes it is tragic that a black person was killed in a car crash somewhere.
But that's really not the point of the movement. And if you are only going to be outraged or upset by this stuff when you find the "perfect" victim, then you are never going to care because no one will fit that definition.
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I think it's safe to say we've now overshot the Overton Window going the other way.
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I decided to take the weekend off from the COVID board.
It definitely was "interesting" catching up this morning.
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When was the last time you saw a teacher beat a kid to death, or crack his skull open on the concrete, and the union come in and protest his suspension? When teachers commit crimes (e.g. assault on a student) they are arrested, terminated, and thrown in jail.
Equating the two is moronic. Being a bad teacher is a subjective decision, most people are bad at their job, but are better at it than possible replacements so they are not fired.
We are not talking about a bad cop, maybe missing a crime, or snoozing on highway ticket duty, we are talking about murdering people. When they murder someone, or assault someone, they are being defended by their peers. No where near a similar aspect. It is a disingenuous statement to compare the two.
I am not comparing the two jobs or actions of their jobs. I said unions protect all, the competent and incompetent. They are required to do so. The good and the bad. Bad pilot is protected as much as the good pilot. Bad teacher. Bad cop. I am pro union generally, but recognize the negative aspect as well. They can put the public safety at risk (pilots, railway, cops) and also underperform for our kids (teachers).
It is a difficult pickle, but unions protect the good and bad workers by their very nature.
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Whatabout...
Are you aware of the Cuckoo’s Calling book she wrote?
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No, I don’t remember Anaheim and when I look up major riots in the USA since 1900 it doesn’t show up.
https://www.infoplease.com/us/history/major-race-riots-us
Ferguson riots were mostly from people coming in from St Louis. Ferguson is also an example of a city not interested in its own direction. 12% voter turnout and the mayor ran unopposed.
Even by your admittedly low standards, this is epic goalpost shifting.
You easily could have admitted you were unaware of these things and nobody would have thought much of it. Instead you do this, and make a fool of yourself.
Reminds me of someone else who used to post here frequently.
Anyhow, go ahead and play your partisan politics on a nonpartisan issue. It's clear you have no serious thoughts on the subject.
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No, I don’t remember Anaheim and when I look up major riots in the USA since 1900 it doesn’t show up.
https://www.infoplease.com/us/history/major-race-riots-us
Ferguson riots were mostly from people coming in from St Louis. Ferguson is also an example of a city not interested in its own direction. 12% voter turnout and the mayor ran unopposed.
I am not blaming a party, I am saying we have the power to change things. The GOP is a gnat in big cities. They have no voting power. We have the control, if we are not happy then we need to make the changes. The people that can make the changes are the voters that are eligible to vote where the policing problems are happening. Those places happen to be heavily Democratic, and we need to be the agents of change.
Instead of you and Wadesworld and FluffyBlueMonster being so defensive, why not seek the higher ground and understand the opportunity and change agents we can become? Whom do you expect to make the changes in our cities? People that don’t live there? Not going to happen.
i
Say what? Ferguson is a 20k outer suburb in North St. Louis County. Ferguson is St. Louis and St. Louis is Ferguson. Much of that situation was peaceful protestors similar to what we are seeing across the country now. There was a mix of out of state and local people involved with the criminal activity component.
Similar to many places across the country, black people are stopped by police at significantly higher rates than white despite those rates not matching up with population statistics. Ever been to traffic court in pick your burb USA? It's rigged against people of color. Stopped while black, fines, etc...
According to the Dept of Justice, 88% of police is white in similar size locales across the country. It was 93% in Ferguson, even higher. If you are black, you learn at a young age about police. 75% of all police Nationally is white.
3 out of 53 police officers were black in Ferguson during the death of Mike Brown. St. Louis County Police is the largest police force in the state of Missouri and it has full authority (if and when it wants) over Ferguson and the other 87 municipalities in Stl Counties. (none of these include St. Louis City Police which is separate) There are 58 police forces in those counties, many of which are focused on creating revenue (often from minorities) to stay afloat as opposed to protecting and serving the public.
You may have heard about the recent law suit against St. Louis County Police which made the news around the country. A police lieutenant was passed over promotion 23 times because he is gay. He was literally told to tone down being gay. A jury awarded him $20 million. (Hello taxpayer money) Later a settlement was reached for $10.25 million. The St. Louis County Police Chief "Retired" at the same time as the announcement.
https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/st-louis-county-reaches-10-25-million-settlement-with-wildhaber-in-discrimination-suit/article_83594da4-2e90-5fed-8580-ccdc2b95a2a8.html
About that Ferguson? They elected their first ever black mayor, Ella Jones (term limits for the previous mayor) by a 138 vote margin in a close race. Now 4 of 6 Ferguson council people are black compared to a previous minority. These things started with protests and protesting, and the Black Lives Matter movement. There was also a Department of Justice investigation. Before, Ferguson was a typical anywhere USA white flight burb where despite declining white population, increasing black population, the white people still had the police and government majorities and power.
https://www.npr.org/2020/06/03/868512501/ella-jones-elected-first-black-mayor-of-ferguson-mo
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Even by your admittedly low standards, this is epic goalpost shifting.
You easily could have admitted you were unaware of these things and nobody would have thought much of it. Instead you do this, and make a fool of yourself.
Reminds me of someone else who used to post here frequently.
Anyhow, go ahead and play your partisan politics on a nonpartisan issue. It's clear you have no serious thoughts on the subject.
You mentioned Anaheim, I see nothing about Anaheim and do not remember it and why should I if it doesn’t seem to register as anything of note.
Ferguson we all remember. There is no goal post shifting. You need to understand the history of Ferguson to understand what happened there. The demographic changes from 1970 to 2010 are astonishing, but not unlike other suburbs of major cities in Chicago, Los Angeles, Miami, New York. You had a once almost all white city become a city with 25% whites and very little voter participation. The old police force remained the same with nepotism and the new residents didn’t bother to vote for change. 12% voter turnout and key positions run unopposed. Sound familiar? This is what I have been talking about. Local action is required by local voters. They are the agents of change. Ferguson finally did that, and could have done it years earlier, but with 12% voter participation they were disinterested in doing so for far too long. Why?
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Don't feed the troll.
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Don't feed the troll.
Yes, we have to be in far left or far right enclaves to participate here. We cannot have someone that sees both sides for the corrupt and good nature they have. Let’s entrench more in the extremes. That has worked so well.
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You mentioned Anaheim, I see nothing about Anaheim and do not remember it and why should I if it doesn’t seem to register as anything of note.
Ferguson we all remember. There is no goal post shifting. You need to understand the history of Ferguson to understand what happened there. The demographic changes from 1970 to 2010 are astonishing, but not unlike other suburbs of major cities in Chicago, Los Angeles, Miami, New York. You had a once almost all white city become a city with 25% whites and very little voter participation. The old police force remained the same with nepotism and the new residents didn’t bother to vote for change. 12% voter turnout and key positions run unopposed. Sound familiar? This is what I have been talking about. Local action is required by local voters. They are the agents of change. Ferguson finally did that, and could have done it years earlier, but with 12% voter participation they were disinterested in doing so for far too long. Why?
Ah first the goalpost shifting. Now the strawman. Cheeks is using his entire bag of tricks today.
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Are you aware of the Cuckoo’s Calling book she wrote?
“All Lives Matter, not just those of one part of the population.” –ChicosBailBonds
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=48369.msg754224#msg754224
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Yes, we have to be in far left or far right enclaves to participate here. We cannot have someone that sees both sides for the corrupt and good nature they have. Let’s entrench more in the extremes. That has worked so well.
“I’ll stand up and be the first to admit being an epic hypocrite on this over the years. 100%. OWNING IT! The worst at times.” –Jams
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Ah first the goalpost shifting. Now the strawman. Cheeks is using his entire bag of tricks today.
He was going to have a difficult time responding to all of his misinformation. Gotta find something, even if it was explained in part in response. When in doubt, blame the victim.
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Here is a horrific account of how Charlotte police ambushed and tear-gassed hundreds of peaceful protesters during one rally last week. They blocked off all escape routes, walled off the protesters and terrorized them. Charlotte did not have a curfew, and the atrocities were captured on video.
As one protester said:
“That was some Third World crap that they pulled. On their own citizens. In Charlotte.”
https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/crime/article243278326.html?
At first, the police chief - as often is the case in these things - defended the actions of his cops and said the protesters had been violent. But after actually watching the video evidence, he acknowledged mistakes and said he would hold officers accountable. We'll see.
He didn't admit that he lied about the violence.
(FWIW, the chief is black, and he is supposed to retire this summer.)
Very ashamed of my city's response that night. Otherwise, things generally seem to have been handled OK, with relatively few accounts of violence by either cops or protesters, but this was unforgivable and totally unnecessary.
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You mentioned Anaheim, I see nothing about Anaheim and do not remember it and why should I if it doesn’t seem to register as anything of note.
Willful ignorance is no excuse.
Ferguson we all remember. There is no goal post shifting. You need to understand the history of Ferguson to understand what happened there. The demographic changes from 1970 to 2010 are astonishing, but not unlike other suburbs of major cities in Chicago, Los Angeles, Miami, New York. You had a once almost all white city become a city with 25% whites and very little voter participation. The old police force remained the same with nepotism and the new residents didn’t bother to vote for change. 12% voter turnout and key positions run unopposed. Sound familiar? This is what I have been talking about. Local action is required by local voters. They are the agents of change. Ferguson finally did that, and could have done it years earlier, but with 12% voter participation they were disinterested in doing so for far too long. Why?
Everything you've written here is the definition of goalpost shifting.
You started this with the claim that you couldn't remember any police-related rioting in cities with Republican mayors. I gave you three instances in just the last eight years (no including last week, by the way). Rather than admit you were mistaken or misinformed, you've excused your ignorance with ramblings about demographics and voter turnout, which seem to have no point but to blame black residents for their mistreatment. I guess your argument now is that black citizens should expect to be treated unfairly by white politicians. Quite the claim.
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Good brief description of what it actually means to defund the police:
https://www.newsweek.com/john-oliver-defund-police-show-1509407?amp=1&utm_term=Autofeed&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter&__twitter_impression=true
John Oliver's entire show. Worth your time:
https://twitter.com/LastWeekTonight/status/1269993152171122689?s=19
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Don't feed the troll.
Thank you, Jesmu.
I open Scoop and half the posts I read are responding to the same person.
He has NO opinions. He is just looking for posters to argue with. Just stop it.
I have been on Scoop long enough to know that everyone arguing with him today is smarter than he is. You are all capable of making your points without using him as a foil.
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nm
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This is disconcerting.
Fantasies of a violent tipping point feature prominently in the Boogaloo scene, which—while relatively new and not an ideological monolith—generally trends right-wing or fringe libertarian, with many of its memes and aesthetic markers borrowed from more explicitly racist alt-right and 4chan culture. The movement is broadly anti-government, and talks often of sparking a civil war.
In the midst of that are current and former service members talking about waging war on U.S. soil. Participation by military members in an anti-government movement might seem counterintuitive on its face, but the Boogaloo movement is only the latest in a long series of fringe paramilitary scenes that court American troops.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-disturbing-appeal-of-boogaloo-violence-to-military-men?ref=home
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https://www.wtvr.com/news/local-news/kkk-president-arrested-for-hitting-protester-with-his-truck
"Good people on both sides."
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Yes, we have to be in far left or far right enclaves to participate here. We cannot have someone that sees both sides for the corrupt and good nature they have. Let’s entrench more in the extremes. That has worked so well.
You are the furthest right poster on this board. And that’s saying something.
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i
Say what? Ferguson is a 20k outer suburb in North St. Louis County. Ferguson is St. Louis and St. Louis is Ferguson. Much of that situation was peaceful protestors similar to what we are seeing across the country now. There was a mix of out of state and local people involved with the criminal activity component.
Similar to many places across the country, black people are stopped by police at significantly higher rates than white despite those rates not matching up with population statistics. Ever been to traffic court in pick your burb USA? It's rigged against people of color. Stopped while black, fines, etc...
According to the Dept of Justice, 88% of police is white in similar size locales across the country. It was 93% in Ferguson, even higher. If you are black, you learn at a young age about police. 75% of all police Nationally is white.
3 out of 53 police officers were black in Ferguson during the death of Mike Brown. St. Louis County Police is the largest police force in the state of Missouri and it has full authority (if and when it wants) over Ferguson and the other 87 municipalities in Stl Counties. (none of these include St. Louis City Police which is separate) There are 58 police forces in those counties, many of which are focused on creating revenue (often from minorities) to stay afloat as opposed to protecting and serving the public.
You may have heard about the recent law suit against St. Louis County Police which made the news around the country. A police lieutenant was passed over promotion 23 times because he is gay. He was literally told to tone down being gay. A jury awarded him $20 million. (Hello taxpayer money) Later a settlement was reached for $10.25 million. The St. Louis County Police Chief "Retired" at the same time as the announcement.
https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/st-louis-county-reaches-10-25-million-settlement-with-wildhaber-in-discrimination-suit/article_83594da4-2e90-5fed-8580-ccdc2b95a2a8.html
About that Ferguson? They elected their first ever black mayor, Ella Jones (term limits for the previous mayor) by a 138 vote margin in a close race. Now 4 of 6 Ferguson council people are black compared to a previous minority. These things started with protests and protesting, and the Black Lives Matter movement. There was also a Department of Justice investigation. Before, Ferguson was a typical anywhere USA white flight burb where despite declining white population, increasing black population, the white people still had the police and government majorities and power.
https://www.npr.org/2020/06/03/868512501/ella-jones-elected-first-black-mayor-of-ferguson-mo
Here is the list of those arrested in Ferguson from CNN. Very few from Ferguson, most from the St Lous area.
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2014/images/08/22/arrest.data.from.8-10.to.8-22.pdf
NPR reported that of 51 arrests on days two and three, only one was from Ferguson.
No misinformation.
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https://www.wtvr.com/news/local-news/kkk-president-arrested-for-hitting-protester-with-his-truck
"Good people on both sides."
I dont know any republicans that support the KKK, but it that is your myopic world view, i suggest you get out more.
And i know, OMB. ::)
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Willful ignorance is no excuse.
Everything you've written here is the definition of goalpost shifting.
You started this with the claim that you couldn't remember any police-related rioting in cities with Republican mayors. I gave you three instances in just the last eight years (no including last week, by the way). Rather than admit you were mistaken or misinformed, you've excused your ignorance with ramblings about demographics and voter turnout, which seem to have no point but to blame black residents for their mistreatment. I guess your argument now is that black citizens should expect to be treated unfairly by white politicians. Quite the claim.
I did not mention mayor at all, and you say I shift goalposts. What are you doing? Cities are not just controlled by mayors, by the way. Strong mayor vs weak mayor political structures, powerful city councils and the like. Some are also split with a mayor from one party and a city council that is split or majority another party.
I’m willfully ignorant for not knowing about protests that happened 2000 miles away that were so big they didn’t make a list of protests in the USA? It they were meaningful, wouldn’t they be something commonly known? Ferguson is known. Anaheim? Apparently not. Maybe you are more connected on this than I am, but I knew nothing about them and it seems much of the Macro internet didn’t either.
But to facilitate the conversation, I will restate the information. I admit that Ferguson had a Republican mayor in a city that was over 80% Democratic with only 12% voter turnout had a riot in 2014 in which most of the arrests for the destruction caused were from people in St Louis and even outside of the state. Restated.
I have no idea about Anaheim, what kind of gov’t they have or what level of rioting seems (very small since it doesn’t measure as a thing for any major riots listed that I can find), but if a minor riot happened there then I am happy to bend to your will.
Back to my original statement. It seems to me, and maybe it is wrong, most of these major riots are happening because of systemic racism or police brutality and we (voters that live here) can change this in the cities controlled by Democratic machinery. This makes obvious sense to me because urban centers in this country are often complicated. In the end, we control the levers of power in these cities. Why can we not be introspective on this and ask why we continue to vote in people and the power structure that allow it to happen?
You seem on the defensive rather than embracing the moment on the change we can make. The GOP doesn’t control these cities where most of this is happening? Right? We do. Instead of defending and living in the past, why not embrace the change that is needed?
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Here is the list of those arrested in Ferguson from CNN. Very few from Ferguson, most from the St Lous area.
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2014/images/08/22/arrest.data.from.8-10.to.8-22.pdf
NPR reported that of 51 arrests on days two and three, only one was from Ferguson.
No misinformation.
Yes lots and lots of misinformation in your post. So now you are searching for the smallest thing to try to be correct about. But, what you don't understand is that Ferguson and St. Louis are considered interchangeable places. No one in the St. Louis Metro Area considers them different. Ferguson, again, is a 20k outer rung suburb in North St. Louis County. If you wanted to mail a package to Ferguson, Mo, you could literally post it "St. Louis, MO" (spoiler alert: Many people do) and it would arrive in Ferguson. You have little understanding about the geography of Metro St. Louis.
I have previously posted here multiple times that examples such as Ferguson 2014 have shown a mix of people who are local, which means the entire 3 million metro area of St. Louis, which includes, but is not limited to Ferguson, and, a variety of other states near and far around the country. Thanks for illustrating my point on that.
Now go over all of the other misinformation in your post or move along which is fine and I'm sure encouraged by some others.
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Back to my original statement. It seems to me, and maybe it is wrong, most of these major riots are happening because of systemic racism or police brutality and we (voters that live here) can change this in the cities controlled by Democratic machinery. This makes obvious sense to me because urban centers in this country are often complicated. In the end, we control the levers of power in these cities. Why can we not be introspective on this and ask why we continue to vote in people and the power structure that allow it to happen?
Blah, blah, blame Democrats, blah blah.
This is not a partisan issue, no matter how much you wish it to be so. You're making it a partisan issue because it is the only thing you know how to do. Come back if/when you have anything substantive to add.
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You are the furthest right poster on this board. And that’s saying something.
You cannot be serious. I’m sorry you continue to think I am someone I am not, but that is your mistake. You continue to say liberal = Democrat. That is false. Some liberals are Democrats and some Democrats are liberal, and some conservatives are Republican and some Republicans are conservative. That doesn’t mean they all are. There are moderate Democrats and Republicans. Is Mitt Romney the same as Ted Cruz? But both are Republican so they have to be. ::) Same for the Democratic side. Was John F Kennedy rave the same level of liberal as Edward? But both were Democratic politicians so they must be?
There is a specific reason I mentioned JK Rowling and that story she wrote. Did you know she wrote that story under a pseudonym? Do you know why I ask?
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I dont know any republicans that support the KKK, but it that is your myopic world view, i suggest you get out more.
And i know, OMB. ::)
He didn't say anything about Republicans.
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Yes lots and lots of misinformation in your post. So now you are searching for the smallest thing to try to be correct about. But, what you don't understand is that Ferguson and St. Louis are considered interchangeable places. No one in the St. Louis Metro Area considers them different. Ferguson, again, is a 20k outer rung suburb in North St. Louis County. If you wanted to mail a package to Ferguson, Mo, you could literally post it "St. Louis, MO" (spoiler alert: Many people do) and it would arrive in Ferguson. You have little understanding about the geography of Metro St. Louis.
I have previously posted here multiple times that examples such as Ferguson 2014 have shown a mix of people who are local, which means the entire 3 million metro area of St. Louis, which includes, but is not limited to Ferguson, and, a variety of other states near and far around the country. Thanks for illustrating my point on that.
Now go over all of the other misinformation in your post or move along which is fine and I'm sure encouraged by some others.
I made the statement that most of the rioting came from people outside Ferguson. The people that lived in Ferguson were not participating in the process, and were allowing the same power structure to continue when they could have instituted change. Now they finally have. It is time for other cities to do the same. If you do not like policing in Chicago, New York, Los Angeles then change who you vote for. Demand that they listen to you, the voter. Instead we have voted in every election for years, sometimes a century, in these cities and then we act surprised when the actions do not change. That is on us. Be the agent of change. Vote. And don’t be surprised if the same results happen when you vote for the same people each election. Definition of insanity.
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Good brief description of what it actually means to defund the police:
https://www.newsweek.com/john-oliver-defund-police-show-1509407?amp=1&utm_term=Autofeed&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter&__twitter_impression=true
John Oliver's entire show. Worth your time:
https://twitter.com/LastWeekTonight/status/1269993152171122689?s=19
It needs to be clearly articulated that "defunding the police" means more of a reorganization of police departments and greater access and budget for ancillary social services while still maintaining some police. People point to Camden as the successful model and while they did disband their police department, they reorganized police at a county level allowing for more officers to serve in a community based model. They also adopted de-escalation methods and dropped the warrior mantra that is so toxic in police departments now. I think if its articulated to the public that this is what "de-fund the police" means, its a winning issue.
But the argument to just disband police, like a few Minneapolis City Council members described, and replace it with some sort of community watch group is on its face a really dumb idea and is not at all what Camden did. Sadly you can increase access to and budgets for a whole range of social services, but you will still have situations(domestic violence, armed robbery, active shooter, etc) where cops are required. Its a fantasy to think otherwise.
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https://www.wtvr.com/news/local-news/kkk-president-arrested-for-hitting-protester-with-his-truck
"Good people on both sides."
You do know that disgusting group has had people from both sides (parties) in it since it began, right? Not sure what you are trying to accomplish with this. No one in the mainstream supports these people. I hate that anyway even gives them the publicity of their actions. It is like naming a school shooter and the notoriety they seek.
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I made the statement that most of the rioting came from people outside Ferguson. The people that lived in Ferguson were not participating in the process, and were allowing the same power structure to continue when they could have instituted change. Now they finally have. It is time for other cities to do the same. If you do not like policing in Chicago, New York, Los Angeles then change who you vote for. Demand that they listen to you, the voter. Instead we have voted in every election for years, sometimes a century, in these cities and then we act surprised when the actions do not change. That is on us. Be the agent of change. Vote. And don’t be surprised if the same results happen when you vote for the same people each election. Definition of insanity.
Gaslighting, which by definition, is to distract, muddy the waters, perhaps even say untruthful, and or intentionally misleading statements repeatedly, to divert attention.
Blaming the victim.....In the immortal words of in game analyst Dodgeball analyst Pepper Brooks, "...Bold strategy Cotton. Let's see if it pays off for 'em."
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It needs to be clearly articulated that "defunding the police" means more of a reorganization of police departments and greater access and budget for ancillary social services while still maintaining some police. People point to Camden as the successful model and while they did disband their police department, they reorganized police at a county level allowing for more officers to serve in a community based model. They also adopted de-escalation methods and dropped the warrior mantra that is so toxic in police departments now. I think if its articulated to the public that this is what "de-fund the police" means, its a winning issue.
But the argument to just disband police, like a few Minneapolis City Council members described, and replace it with some sort of community watch group is on its face a really dumb idea and is not at all what Camden did. Sadly you can increase access to and budgets for a whole range of social services, but you will still have situations(domestic violence, armed robbery, active shooter, etc) where cops are required. Its a fantasy to think otherwise.
Agreed. The language of this is significant, and the sooner the proponents figure out a better tagline than "defund the police," (and truly move to a Camden-like model instead of a "community watch group" model) the more likely they will get support from a vast majority of Americans.
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“All Lives Matter, not just those of one part of the population.” –ChicosBailBonds
https://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=48369.msg754224#msg754224
Why are you stating this?
Is he Richard Sherman? “I stand by what I said, all lives matter”. He has doubled down on that phrase.
Hillary Clinton used the same phrase.
My wife was a supporter of Pete Buttigeg who said it and took heat for it. That may have been one of the final straws for her. He didn’t realize that it was a counter slogan, nor did she and I’m not sure she agrees that it is anyway. She loves everyone. Unfortunately tribalism rules here.
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It needs to be clearly articulated that "defunding the police" means more of a reorganization of police departments and greater access and budget for ancillary social services while still maintaining some police. People point to Camden as the successful model and while they did disband their police department, they reorganized police at a county level allowing for more officers to serve in a community based model. They also adopted de-escalation methods and dropped the warrior mantra that is so toxic in police departments now. I think if its articulated to the public that this is what "de-fund the police" means, its a winning issue.
But the argument to just disband police, like a few Minneapolis City Council members described, and replace it with some sort of community watch group is on its face a really dumb idea and is not at all what Camden did. Sadly you can increase access to and budgets for a whole range of social services, but you will still have situations(domestic violence, armed robbery, active shooter, etc) where cops are required. Its a fantasy to think otherwise.
I hope Minneapolis follows through and defunds the police as a case study for the rest of metro America. My gut tells me it will be a train wreck. You may reduce officer involved deaths at hands of police, yet crime and homicide levels (particularly in inner-cities will exponentially increase.)
Eventually some of these radical ideas need to be implemented for that radical liberal left to see the consequence. Perhaps they will perceive it as a win if officer involved deaths decrease - even if crime spikes. There sure AF doesn't appear to be outrage over the number of homicides taking place in our inner-cities, and those Black lives dying at the hands of other Blacks. So, we all should just come to peace with black lives matter only when it involves the police or killing perpetrated by another race.
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I don't see any signs, posters or murals of Captain Dorn in the protest crowd. I guess a murdered retired black police officer is not a symbol of systemic racism; after all how could a black man become a police Captain in St. Louis of all places with all that systemic racism. In fact his murderer is still at large and the national press does not seem to care about that black life. Why has Black Lives Matter not cried out for justice in his case? Does Black Lives Matter even know who he is? If Black Lives do Matter why not his as well?
As highlighted in red: I could say the same of many of the posters in this thread. Am I right, you just said her arguments are not grounded in reality? Whose reality, yours or hers? Are her arguments any less valid than yours?
First degree murder charges filed. But nice red herring.
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I hope Minneapolis follows through and defunds the police as a case study for the rest of metro America. My gut tells me it will be a train wreck. You may reduce officer involved deaths at hands of police, yet crime and homicide levels (particularly in inner-cities will exponentially increase.)
Eventually some of these radical ideas need to be implemented for that radical liberal left to see the consequence. Perhaps they will perceive it as a win if officer involved deaths decrease - even if crime spikes. There sure AF doesn't appear to be outrage over the number of homicides taking place in our inner-cities, and those Black lives dying at the hands of other Blacks. So, we all should just come to peace with black lives matter only when it involves the police or killing perpetrated by another race.
The bolded really isn't an accurate statement. And it's not really relevant to the subject at hand.
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I see the "What about black-on-black crime" guy has arrived.
"You may reduce officer involved deaths at hands of police, yet crime and homicide levels (particularly in inner-cities will exponentially increase.)"
Yes, cops are doing a bang-up job of reducing and solving homicide in America's inner-cities.
And, of course, another person who doesn't understand what "defund the police" means ... though, to be fair, its proponents have done a terrible job of explaining and branding it.
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I see the "What about black-on-black crime" guy has arrived.
Yeah it took awhile. I mean "trash the victim" guy only showed up this past weekend.
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I’m sorry you continue to think I am someone I am not, but that is your mistake.
“You keep calling me Chicos and I am not going to answer your question” –Hoopaloop
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I love cops. I truly do. And they have it the worst. The right hates them because they have a strong union. The left hates them because sometimes their lesser, dumber, more racist members do really stupid sh!t that makes the 99 % look bad. And since all they have is each other, they close ranks when they should be openly ostracizing the bad ones. All while the R's would really prefer they work for minimum wage and not get a pension.
They have trouble recruiting now, just like the teachers. Once upon a time, the best and the finest wanted to be one of these two long honored professions. Then, somehow, every societal woe became their fault.
I love cops. I feel bad for the whipsaw they get from so many different sides. They need to stop killing unarmed black people.
I love teachers. I wish they were given the resources and support they need to perform their jobs well.
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I dont know any republicans that support the KKK, but it that is your myopic world view, i suggest you get out more.
And i know, OMB. ::)
Ummm, Trump?
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“You keep calling me Chicos and I am not going to answer your question” –Hoopaloop
There's a tweet/quote for every situation.
*chef's kiss gif*
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Blaming "antifa" for violent protests ... talk about a hoax and a witch hunt.
https://apnews.com/20b9b86dba5c480bad759a3bd34cd875?fbclid=IwAR0tMCtjELD8B7gPaqmUkQHYpN3EJjt8ANNXILtIVBlBG61ShKz97iKBI9o
The president has tried to portray the protesters and looters with a broad brush as “radical-left, bad people,” ominously invoking the name “antifa,” an umbrella term for leftist militants bound more by belief than organizational structure. Trump tweeted last Sunday that he planned to designate antifa as a terrorist organization.
“These are acts of domestic terror,” Trump said in a Rose Garden speech Monday, moments after heavily armed troops and riot police advanced without warning on the largely peaceful protesters across the street from the White House.
Barr, put in charge of organizing the police and military response, activated the FBI’s Joint Terrorism Task Force last weekend to target protest organizers.
“The violence instigated and carried out by Antifa and other similar groups in connection with the rioting is domestic terrorism and will be treated accordingly,” Barr said in a statement issued Sunday.
There have been violent acts, including property destruction and theft. Police officers and protesters have been seriously injured and killed. But federal law enforcement officials have offered little evidence that antifa-aligned protesters could be behind a movement that has appeared nearly simultaneously in hundreds of cities and towns in all 50 states since Floyd’s death.
The AP obtained copies of daily confidential “Intelligence Notes” distributed this past week to local enforcement by the Department of Homeland Security that repeat, without citing evidence, that “organized violent opportunists — including suspected anarchist extremists — could increasingly perpetrate nationwide targeting of law enforcement and critical infrastructure.”
“We lack detailed reporting indicating the level of organization and planning by some violent opportunists and assess that most of the violence to date has been loosely organized on a level seen with previous widespread outbreaks of violence at lawful protests,” the assessment for Monday says.
Behind in all the polls, including those conducted by right-leaning pollsters like Fox News and Rasmussen, Trump is desperate to characterize all evils in the aftermath of the George Floyd assassination as caused by antifa, leftists and Dem-backed groups.
As usual, facts are optional.
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I love cops. I truly do. And they have it the worst. The right hates them because they have a strong union. The left hates them because sometimes their lesser, dumber, more racist members do really stupid sh!t that makes the 99 % look bad. And since all they have is each other, they close ranks when they should be openly ostracizing the bad ones. All while the R's would really prefer they work for minimum wage and not get a pension.
They have trouble recruiting now, just like the teachers. Once upon a time, the best and the finest wanted to be one of these two long honored professions. Then, somehow, every societal woe became their fault.
I love cops. I feel bad for the whipsaw they get from so many different sides. They need to stop killing unarmed black people.
I love teachers. I wish they were given the resources and support they need to perform their jobs well.
Tower
Think this one really misses the mark.
First of all, the old 99% good anything (including cops) trope is BS. Let’s be honest. There are lots of bullies and would be bullies in our society. That they would naturally gravitate to a profession that gives them a badge, a gun and carte blanche to push people around. I don’t know what % of folks who join the force fit this profile, but I’ll bet the farm it’s more than 1%. Any systemic change should start with doing a better job of eliminating those candidates before they even get started.
Equivalency on the left and right hating the cops? LOL. The right may disagree with the idea of public unions (as did FDR, by the way), but they in no way hate cops. If anything, they’re guilty of romanticizing police work and backing them even when they’re at fault. “What do we want? Dead cops!” and the idea of defunding America’s police departments are memes only found on the left.
I love cops, too. Their jobs are difficult and made nearly impossible by those who want to second guess them at every turn. But more than 1% are bad. And way more than that are less than good.
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Come for the angry racist white guy, stay for the interview of the glorious, peaceful, courage, of Samantha Francine:
https://twitter.com/drvox/status/1269746069740507136?s=19
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Tower
Think this one really misses the mark.
First of all, the old 99% good anything (including cops) trope is BS. Let’s be honest. There are lots of bullies and would be bullies in our society. That they would naturally gravitate to a profession that gives them a badge, a gun and carte blanche to push people around. I don’t know what % of folks who join the force fit this profile, but I’ll bet the farm it’s more than 1%. Any systemic change should start with doing a better job of eliminating those candidates before they even get started.
Equivalency on the left and right hating the cops? LOL. The right may disagree with the idea of public unions (as did FDR, by the way), but they in no way hate cops. If anything, they’re guilty of romanticizing police work and backing them even when they’re at fault. “What do we want? Dead cops!” and the idea of defunding America’s police departments are memes only found on the left.
Lenny, sorry brother. I have watched the right defunding the police for 30 years. The department in my town is down 100 positions compared to 2007. 25%. Same story all over. Revenue sharing cuts from the state which has its legislature controlled nearly non-stop buy the R's. Police and fire know revenue sharing cuts are code for cut public safety.
So, I am going to have to stick with my position.
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Black business owner calls police to report robbery. Cop shows up and immediately punches him in the face.
https://www.al.com/news/2020/06/decatur-police-officer-punches-liquor-store-owner-who-reported-robbery.html
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Lenny, sorry brother. I have watched the right defunding the police for 30 years. The department in my town is down 100 positions compared to 2007. 25%. Same story all over. Revenue sharing cuts from the state which has its legislature controlled nearly non-stop buy the R's. Police and fire know revenue sharing cuts are code for cut public safety.
So, I am going to have to stick with my position.
Brother Tower, I trust you to fairly report what’s happened in your town. But if you take a national poll on who loves (not always wisely) and who doesn’t love the cops I think we both know which side the right and left will come down on.
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Brother Tower, I trust you to fairly report what’s happened in your town. But if you take a national poll on who loves (not always wisely) and who doesn’t love the cops I think we both know which side the right and left will come down on.
Which maybe means it’s not that relevant of a poll question. Actions speak louder on these issues in my opinion.
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Lenny, sorry brother. I have watched the right defunding the police for 30 years. The department in my town is down 100 positions compared to 2007. 25%. Same story all over. Revenue sharing cuts from the state which has its legislature controlled nearly non-stop buy the R's. Police and fire know revenue sharing cuts are code for cut public safety.
So, I am going to have to stick with my position.
Tower, I respect the hell out of you, and this is a judgment free question. Since the 25% cut, what have been the impacts on crime and law enforcement? Has crime risen proportionately?
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Which maybe means it’s not that relevant of a poll question. Actions speak louder on these issues in my opinion.
Frenns
If you’re looking for how people feel, what their attitudes are, polls are relevant.
The way one feels about public unions has zero to do (IMO) with how they feel about cops. It’s not a litmus test, at least for me.
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Brother Tower, I trust you to fairly report what’s happened in your town. But if you take a national poll on who loves (not always wisely) and who doesn’t love the cops I think we both know which side the right and left will come down on.
Brother Lenny, the right likes cops but hates paying for them. A subset of the left doesn't trust them because of racial issues.
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Frenns
If you’re looking for how people feel, what their attitudes are, polls are relevant.
The way one feels about public unions has zero to do (IMO) with how they feel about cops. It’s not a litmus test, at least for me.
Lenny You misunderstanding point. It’s not a good question. The left maybe empathizes until their neighborhood has people they don’t want ‘hanging out’. The right answers law and order but then does what tower hypothesizes. It’s a hypothetical question and you get an ‘answer’.
We’ve got a problem and the sooner we all realize it the better.
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Equivalency on the left and right hating the cops? LOL. The right may disagree with the idea of public unions (as did FDR, by the way), but they in no way hate cops. If anything, they’re guilty of romanticizing police work and backing them even when they’re at fault.
Some examples of the right's love for law enforcement:
- Randy Weaver and family
- Tim McVeigh
- Cliven Bundy
- Jerad and Amanda Miller
- Eric Frein
- Paul Ciancia
- Richard Poplawski
Now list all the Antifa murders of police officers.
As for right-leaning politicians, for all the lip service they give to law enforcement, they never seem to support gun control measures backed by police organizations, like the assault weapons ban of 2013, prohibitions on the sale of body armor and regulations on gun show sales.
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Shocking that ners takes "defunding the police" to be "free for all to do whatever they want, throw out all rules and the enforcement of rules."
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Tower, I respect the hell out of you, and this is a judgment free question. Since the 25% cut, what have been the impacts on crime and law enforcement? Has crime risen proportionately?
Negligible. The hard work here was done in the 90's. Crime rates ebb and flow as new generations of young and reckless rise up. Some have more hope and less crime, some have less hope and more crime. Crime here is generally kept within the same race and the same economic strata. And there isn't less murder done out in the lily white outlying areas of the county. It is generally of the domestic murder/suicide variety with the occasional shooting of an intruder thrown in for variety.
I laugh at 'defunding' the police. R's have been doing it in this state for 30 years.
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We’ve got a problem and the sooner we all realize it the better.
Frenns
Anyone who doesn’t realize that has been living under a rock.
So far, the one “solution” I have heard is a federal law outlawing choke holds. Huh?
I think being more rigorous about who gets into the police academy and how we police (fire?) those who get through the cracks would be a better idea. And if the unions insist on protecting the bullies and the racists then any benefit they do for their members is dwarfed by the harm they do to society. So there are my first two cracks at systemic change. I’d love to hear more.
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Frenns
Anyone who doesn’t realize that has been living under a rock.
So far, the one “solution” I have heard is a federal law outlawing choke holds. Huh?
I think being more rigorous about who gets into the police academy and how we police (fire?) those who get through the cracks would be a better idea. And if the unions insist on protecting the bullies and the racists then any benefit they do for their members is dwarfed by the harm they do to society. So there are my first two cracks at systemic change. I’d love to hear more.
I think those are valid. Any solution without tackling the union issue is going to be compromised.
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Frenns
Anyone who doesn’t realize that has been living under a rock.
So far, the one “solution” I have heard is a federal law outlawing choke holds. Huh?
I think being more rigorous about who gets into the police academy and how we police (fire?) those who get through the cracks would be a better idea. And if the unions insist on protecting the bullies and the racists then any benefit they do for their members is dwarfed by the harm they do to society. So there are my first two cracks at systemic change. I’d love to hear more.
I think we need to address culture, the militarization of the police and their mandate (What we deem criminal and what we expect our police to address). The items you identify are wrapped up in this too.
Also I think I was raised in a period where the 60s were viewed as history and settled as an attempt to move on. That was a huge mistake. Everyone needs to learn in painful detail the full history of this country.
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Union= least of the problems. Whatever. You missed the part where I pointed out the problems that police academies are having recruiting qualified individuals. And it is because of pressures from both sides. Poor pay, long hours, understaffed, pensions under fire from the right. Distrust from the African American community on the left. Why would the best and the finest want that when they can make more as an assistant manager at a Costco?
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Union= least of the problems. Whatever. You missed the part where I pointed out the problems that police academies are having recruiting qualified individuals. And it is because of pressures from both sides. Poor pay, long hours, understaffed, pensions under fire from the right. Distrust from the African American community on the left. Why would the best and the finest want that when they can make more as an assistant manager at a Costco?
Tower
I’ll never understand a system that protects a guy with a complaint sheet a mile long until he kills somebody. I just can’t see that as the least of our problems. But I’ll readily acknowledge that even with the help of collective bargaining our police force (at least the boots on the ground) are underpaid and under appreciated. Is systemic change possible to address both problems?
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We agree on getting rid of officers with long histories of complaints. I assume his department failed to follow their progressive discipline procedures. Possibly because of statements by his co-workers to cast doubt on the worst of the accusations. PD needs to stop their code of silence when it comes to inappropriate behavior. That is a culture issue.
There is this myth that unions can stop bad cops from getting fired. There are always processes for that. But the processes must be followed and that usually involves testimony from co-workers or incontrovertible audio or video evidence. I know of several cops here who have been fired. Some friends of mine. One won his case for reinstatement, but didn't want to face his co-workers.
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We agree on getting rid of officers with long histories of complaints. I assume his department failed to follow their progressive discipline procedures. Possibly because of statements by his co-workers to cast doubt on the worst of the accusations. PD needs to stop their code of silence when it comes to inappropriate behavior. That is a culture issue.
There is this myth that unions can stop bad cops from getting fired. There are always processes for that. But the processes must be followed and that usually involves testimony from co-workers or incontrovertible audio or video evidence. I know of several cops here who have been fired. Some friends of mine. One won his case for reinstatement, but didn't want to face his co-workers.
There is a culture of protection that prevents good cops stopping bad cops. That is all separate from comp and benefits — but it gives the institution a bad connotation in my opinion
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Yes.
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Frenns
Anyone who doesn’t realize that has been living under a rock.
Or in (perhaps under) the White House....
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You're all making some fair points, but also skirting around the primary problem, which is a cultural one. Law enforcement culture, to be exact.
Too many police officers look down upon the communities they serve, view other citizens antagonistically and work in an environment that too often accepts and even encourages negative interactions.
That's not because of a few bad apples sneaking through the academy or a handful of bad cops being protected by a union. That's the environment in which cops are trained and operate. To their credit, the great majority of cops work in this environment and still do their jobs honorably.
But what happened to George Floyd didn't occur because he was unlucky enough to run into four bad apples all at the same time. Derek Chauvin didn't put on his uniform May 25 planning to kill someone. But somewhere along the way he learned that it is acceptable to restrain a person by kneeling on his neck for nine minutes. The three other cops assisted, rather than intervene on Floyd's behalf, because they learned it was acceptable as well. At any point in that video does it appear that the cops believe they're doing anything wrong? And they did it because they viewed George Floyd as someone worthy of their contempt. Someone lesser. Not a fellow citizen with equal standing, but someone to be dominated with a knee to the neck.
The issues you're all raising are legit and worthy of attention. But fixing the problem is going to take a change in the way we view law enforcement, and the way law enforcement views us. I wish I knew exactly how we do that. I think there are some promising ideas out there, like what's been done in Camden, but I'm not sure that's realistic everywhere. I wish I had better ideas and solutions, but all I know is the problem runs far deeper than some bad cops being protected by the union.
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We agree on getting rid of officers with long histories of complaints. I assume his department failed to follow their progressive discipline procedures. Possibly because of statements by his co-workers to cast doubt on the worst of the accusations. PD needs to stop their code of silence when it comes to inappropriate behavior. That is a culture issue.
There is this myth that unions can stop bad cops from getting fired. There are always processes for that. But the processes must be followed and that usually involves testimony from co-workers or incontrovertible audio or video evidence. I know of several cops here who have been fired. Some friends of mine. One won his case for reinstatement, but didn't want to face his co-workers.
I’m sure it’s not impossible for bad cops to get fired. And I certainly respect your experiences in these matters. But it’s hard for me to believe that the “processes” that have to be satisfied for removal aren’t awfully difficult to overcome, especially when rank and file won’t (are instructed not to?) cooperate. I don’t know if it’s true, but I read somewhere (sorry I don’t know where) that the police outside the courthouse cheering the two Buffalo cops who shoved the 75 year old man down were there on orders from their union. How much the unions are or aren’t involved, there are big problems in our police departments.
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Cops in riot gear are never deployed on orders from their union. You heard something wrong.
Cops can gather and protest, but generally do so in street clothes.
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You're all making some fair points, but also skirting around the primary problem, which is a cultural one. Law enforcement culture, to be exact.
Too many police officers look down upon the communities they serve, view other citizens antagonistically and work in an environment that too often accepts and even encourages negative interactions.
That's not because of a few bad apples sneaking through the academy or a handful of bad cops being protected by a union. That's the environment in which cops are trained and operate. To their credit, the great majority of cops work in this environment and still do their jobs honorably.
But what happened to George Floyd didn't occur because he was unlucky enough to run into four bad apples all at the same time. Derek Chauvin didn't put on his uniform May 25 planning to kill someone. But somewhere along the way he learned that it is acceptable to restrain a person by kneeling on his neck for nine minutes. The three other cops assisted, rather than intervene on Floyd's behalf, because they learned it was acceptable as well. At any point in that video does it appear that the cops believe they're doing anything wrong? And they did it because they viewed George Floyd as someone worthy of their contempt. Someone lesser. Not a fellow citizen with equal standing, but someone to be dominated with a knee to the neck.
The issues you're all raising are legit and worthy of attention. But fixing the problem is going to take a change in the way we view law enforcement, and the way law enforcement views us. I wish I knew exactly how we do that. I think there are some promising ideas out there, like what's been done in Camden, but I'm not sure that's realistic everywhere. I wish I had better ideas and solutions, but all I know is the problem runs far deeper than some bad cops being protected by the union.
Excellent post. I agree that changing “the way we view law enforcement and the way law enforcement views us” is the key. IMO getting cops off the street who don’t belong there
is the necessary first step.
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Lenny and Tower (and others), enjoying reading the back and forth. I'm learning something and I enjoy the respectful dialogue. My take away, you both make great points, which may suggest that the answer lies somewhere in the middle.
Thanks for the friendly dialogue and information.
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Cops in riot gear are never deployed on orders from their union. You heard something wrong.
Cops can gather and protest, but generally do so in street clothes.
In the video I saw they were in street clothes.
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You're all making some fair points, but also skirting around the primary problem, which is a cultural one. Law enforcement culture, to be exact.
Too many police officers look down upon the communities they serve, view other citizens antagonistically and work in an environment that too often accepts and even encourages negative interactions.
That's not because of a few bad apples sneaking through the academy or a handful of bad cops being protected by a union. That's the environment in which cops are trained and operate. To their credit, the great majority of cops work in this environment and still do their jobs honorably.
But what happened to George Floyd didn't occur because he was unlucky enough to run into four bad apples all at the same time. Derek Chauvin didn't put on his uniform May 25 planning to kill someone. But somewhere along the way he learned that it is acceptable to restrain a person by kneeling on his neck for nine minutes. The three other cops assisted, rather than intervene on Floyd's behalf, because they learned it was acceptable as well. At any point in that video does it appear that the cops believe they're doing anything wrong? And they did it because they viewed George Floyd as someone worthy of their contempt. Someone lesser. Not a fellow citizen with equal standing, but someone to be dominated with a knee to the neck.
Agree – and I believe the key word in your comment above is “culture.“ An individual may be good or bad when he or she joined the department, but the “tough on crime” culture has historically encouraged bad actors to be bad, and everyone to clam up and close ranks when something bad happens.
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Good brief description of what it actually means to defund the police:
https://www.newsweek.com/john-oliver-defund-police-show-1509407?amp=1&utm_term=Autofeed&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter&__twitter_impression=true
John Oliver's entire show. Worth your time:
https://twitter.com/LastWeekTonight/status/1269993152171122689?s=19
Just watched John Oliver. It is an extremely informative half-hour on everything that has gone on throughout American history re the white supremacist culture of policing, what's going on today, some of the main roadblocks to fixing it, some ideas for the future, etc. Many of us know much of the stuff already, but I learned a few things, and even the stuff I knew it was good to see it presented so clearly and concisely.
And for those who are worried that it's an anti-Trump screed, it isn't. He has pointed words about Clinton and Cuomo, among others, while still acknowledging that Trump looked at a fire and decided the best solution was to throw gasoline on it.
Highly recommend.
Having said that, I have no idea how we really change the culture of policing in this country. It seems a daunting, impossible task.
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https://crooksandliars.com/2020/06/minnesota-cops-admit-slashing-tires
This is why these police forces need to be built from the ground up - with real, meaningful oversight.
At some point in the past few decades we seem to have slipped through Alice's Looking Glass and now live in some dystopian Orwellian world where Donald Trump is president and cops do things like "strategically deflate tires" by puncturing them, then lying about it, and then when presented with video proof lie some more about how the cars contained rocks and other weapons (none of them did, of course). And finally, at the very last, admitting they did it, but using their Orwellian double-speak to justify their lawlessness.
Mother Jones captured their bullcrap and wrote about it. On Monday, the cops fessed up, State Patrol and Anoka County deputies acknowledged targeting vehicles. Dozens were damaged.
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Someone needs to get on the horn with the Defund the Police folks and get them to start using the phrase Reinvent the Police.
If Democrats campaign on Defund the Police, they will lose
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Someone needs to get on the horn with the Defund the Police folks and get them to start using the phrase Reinvent the Police.
If Democrats campaign on Defund the Police, they will lose
Just got that horrid feel in my gut reading this.
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Biden is walking away from it.
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Presented without comment, no words, Buffalo, wow:
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1270333484528214018?s=19
“Buffalo protester shoved by Police could be an ANTIFA provocateur. 75 year old Martin Gugino was pushed away after appearing to scan police communications in order to black out the equipment. @OANN I watched, he fell harder than was pushed. Was aiming scanner. Could be a set up?“
-Trump
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Presented without comment, no words, Buffalo, wow:
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1270333484528214018?s=19
“Buffalo protester shoved by Police could be an ANTIFA provocateur. 75 year old Martin Gugino was pushed away after appearing to scan police communications in order to black out the equipment. @OANN I watched, he fell harder than was pushed. Was aiming scanner. Could be a set up?“
-Trump
Best president of our lifetimes.
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ROFL
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Presented without comment, no words, Buffalo, wow:
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1270333484528214018?s=19
“Buffalo protester shoved by Police could be an ANTIFA provocateur. 75 year old Martin Gugino was pushed away after appearing to scan police communications in order to black out the equipment. @OANN I watched, he fell harder than was pushed. Was aiming scanner. Could be a set up?“
-Trump
I’ll add a comment. What a POS.
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Someone needs to get on the horn with the Defund the Police folks and get them to start using the phrase Reinvent the Police.
If Democrats campaign on Defund the Police, they will lose
Agreed. The messaging could have major unintended consequences if it doesn’t change. Biden is smart to try to refocus the conversation. Hopefully the great majority of the protesters and Democratic officials follow his lead.
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Someone needs to get on the horn with the Defund the Police folks and get them to start using the phrase Reinvent the Police.
If Democrats campaign on Defund the Police, they will lose
Dis right here.
Sure, it fits nicely on a sign. But it leaves too much vaguery that the GOP will fill with alarmist rhetoric.
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ROFL
He's barely even a caricature of himself now. So wrapped up in conspiracy theories, Q-Anon stuff, blaming everything on antifa "terrorists." It's beyond a joke.
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He's barely even a caricature of himself now. So wrapped up in conspiracy theories, Q-Anon stuff, blaming everything on antifa "terrorists." It's beyond a joke.
Judging by some of my “enlightened” relatives on Facebook, they eat up this type of stuff.
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Agreed. The messaging could have major unintended consequences if it doesn’t change. Biden is smart to try to refocus the conversation. Hopefully the great majority of the protesters and Democratic officials follow his lead.
The question is does the pivot by Biden win/retain the left wing that is more prone to a literal interpretation of Defund the Police than Biden is going to sign up for? Put another way, will the protesters/left wing folks accept something that fits in the Overton Window? If not it will still fracture the party
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If not it will still fracture the party
No.
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The question is does the pivot by Biden win/retain the left wing that is more prone to a literal interpretation of Defund the Police than Biden is going to sign up for? Put another way, will the protesters/left wing folks accept something that fits in the Overton Window? If not it will still fracture the party
It's a fair question, but if I'm advising the Biden campaign, I'm far more worried about losing white suburban voters and swing state moderates who might recoil over "defund" rhetoric than I am worried about losing the far left wing. The left wing, at worst, might stay home. But a vote that stays home is better than a vote that goes to Trump.
And ultimately I think the hard left's abhorrence for Trump will have most of them turning out just to vote against him. Especially if Biden picks Kamala Harris as his running mate, which seems likely.
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It's a fair question, but if I'm advising the Biden campaign, I'm far more worried about losing white suburban voters and swing state moderates who might recoil over "defund" rhetoric than I am worried about losing the far left wing. The left wing, at worst, might stay home. But a vote that stays home is better than a vote that goes to Trump.
And ultimately I think the hard left's abhorrence for Trump will have most of them turning out just to vote against him. Especially if Biden picks Kamala Harris as his running mate, which seems likely.
I agree with you, but as we saw with the mayor of Minneapolis if the reforms are generally pro-defund, do you lose them as a voter that you can't make up by winning back a Trump voter. Its fascinating from a political science standpoint
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The question is does the pivot by Biden win/retain the left wing that is more prone to a literal interpretation of Defund the Police than Biden is going to sign up for? Put another way, will the protesters/left wing folks accept something that fits in the Overton Window? If not it will still fracture the party
If the far left wing had the juice they think it has, Warren or Sanders would be the nominee. And goes for two races in a row (Clinton and Biden).
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Best president of our lifetimes.
Character confirmed
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If the far left wing had the juice they think it has, Warren or Sanders would be the nominee. And goes for two races in a row (Clinton and Biden).
Yeah, but how many of the protesters now find themselves on the left wing that weren't during the spring? Biden's big pivot to the nomination happened in South Carolina was in large part because of the black vote.....but has that black vote migrated from where Biden was then compared to where he is now.
Trump has his boogeyman to campaign against, the question is, how does Biden counter it and not lose at least some of the left wing.
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Yeah, but how many of the protesters now find themselves on the left wing that weren't during the spring? Biden's big pivot to the nomination happened in South Carolina was in large part because of the black vote.....but has that black vote migrated from where Biden was then compared to where he is now.
Trump has his boogeyman to campaign against, the question is, how does Biden counter it and not lose at least some of the left wing.
I think it's as simple as: Those who will vote for Biden are not voting for Biden or any particular position he has had or currently espouses. They are voting against the current occupant, maybe despite any particular position Biden espouses. That's what this election boils down to.
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Yeah, but how many of the protesters now find themselves on the left wing that weren't during the spring? Biden's big pivot to the nomination happened in South Carolina was in large part because of the black vote.....but has that black vote migrated from where Biden was then compared to where he is now.
Trump has his boogeyman to campaign against, the question is, how does Biden counter it and not lose at least some of the left wing.
While such concerns aren't trivial, they're far less concerning than what Biden risks if he goes the other way. At the end of the day, Biden probably doesn't lose sleep over the left wing suddenly deciding they're OK with another four years of Trump. A hatred for Trump and what he stands is and was always going to be what drives them to the polls. And that changes not one iota by Biden's stance on defunding. The AOC crowd isn't going to look at Biden's moderate take on this one issue and think "Hmm ... maybe Trump isn't so bad after all."
Remember, it wasn't the progressives staying home that cost Hillary in 2016. It was her losing the suburban, exurban and rural voters who previously voted for Obama. That's who Biden needs to appeal to most now.
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Hatred for Trump drove big Dem turnout for the 2018 midterms. Plus, the exact suburban and exurban voters that Pakuni talked about, especially white women who had voted GOP over the years, flipped the House.
Will such a thing happen again this fall, especially in the battleground states? If so, Trump can't win because of simple math, which is why he desperately is trying to suppress the vote. Heck, he admitted it when he talked about why he's against mail-in voting.
There is still forever to go before November. COVID could largely clear out, the economy could be roaring and the BLM movement could fizzle out ... or COVID could have another wave, the economy could stay in the shytter, and the BLM movement could drive huge turnout. Or something in between. Or something entirely different - something we don't even know about today - could crop up to hurt Trump or Biden and/or to aid Biden or Trump.
Fun, fun, fun!
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I see the "What about black-on-black crime" guy has arrived.
"You may reduce officer involved deaths at hands of police, yet crime and homicide levels (particularly in inner-cities will exponentially increase.)"
Yes, cops are doing a bang-up job of reducing and solving homicide in America's inner-cities.
And, of course, another person who doesn't understand what "defund the police" means ... though, to be fair, its proponents have done a terrible job of explaining and branding it.
Out of curiosity, what is your take on Black on Black crime? Where are all of the activists protesting (and rioting) throughout the inner city, demanding justice for the 303 Black men killed in Chicago in the last year? That figure represents 65% of the homicides committed in Chicago.
Why is this not a relevant part of the conversation centering around BLM? And FYI, here are some numbers for you to ponder:
2018 Incidents involving Blacks and Whites (from Bureau of Justice)
Total incidents: 4,145,300
Interracial Violent Incidents: 607,725
White on Black incidents: 59,777 or 9.84%, despite comprising 76.5% of US population
Black on White incidents: 547,948 or 90.16% of violent interracial incidents, while comprising 13% of US population.
Wonder if this has anything to do with the Karen's of Central Park or other whites calling the police out of fear toward Blacks? It's unfortunate these are the facts and numbers. Hopefully our country gets a handle on this problem as well.
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Out of curiosity, what is your take on Black on Black crime? Where are all of the activists protesting (and rioting) throughout the inner city, demanding justice for the 303 Black men killed in Chicago in the last year? That figure represents 65% of the homicides committed in Chicago.
Why is this not a relevant part of the conversation centering around BLM? And FYI, here are some numbers for you to ponder:
2018 Incidents involving Blacks and Whites (from Bureau of Justice)
Total incidents: 4,145,300
Interracial Violent Incidents: 607,725
White on Black incidents: 59,777 or 9.84%, despite comprising 76.5% of US population
Black on White incidents: 547,948 or 90.16% of violent interracial incidents, while comprising 13% of US population.
Wonder if this has anything to do with the Karen's of Central Park or other whites calling the police out of fear toward Blacks? It's unfortunate these are the facts and numbers. Hopefully our country gets a handle on this problem as well.
Okay Karen.
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Out of curiosity, what is your take on Black on Black crime?
It's bad.
Why is this not a relevant part of the conversation centering around BLM?
Because the point of the movement is about systemic racism within law enforcement agencies. You know, the ones that are paid for by our tax dollars are theoretically work to protect our fellow citizens.
It's like asking "Why does MADD only focus on drunk driving? Cancer kills fifty times more people each year." So while yes that is true, it also isn't the point.
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Out of curiosity, what is your take on Black on Black crime? Where are all of the activists protesting (and rioting) throughout the inner city, demanding justice for the 303 Black men killed in Chicago in the last year? That figure represents 65% of the homicides committed in Chicago.
Why is this not a relevant part of the conversation centering around BLM? And FYI, here are some numbers for you to ponder:
2018 Incidents involving Blacks and Whites (from Bureau of Justice)
Total incidents: 4,145,300
Interracial Violent Incidents: 607,725
White on Black incidents: 59,777 or 9.84%, despite comprising 76.5% of US population
Black on White incidents: 547,948 or 90.16% of violent interracial incidents, while comprising 13% of US population.
Wonder if this has anything to do with the Karen's of Central Park or other whites calling the police out of fear toward Blacks? It's unfortunate these are the facts and numbers. Hopefully our country gets a handle on this problem as well.
I don't have a "take" on black-on-black crime. Crime is bad. Crime should be prevented. Criminals should face consequences. This goes for all crime and all perpetrators. Do you have separate takes on black-on-black crime vs white-on-white crime?
Marches, rallies and protests regarding violent crime in black communities happen often in Chicago. You don't know this because you don't actually care about crime in black communities. You just use it as a talking point.
But you're in idiot if you can't understand why a police officer murdering a citizen draws more attention and outrage than one gang member killing another.
Your numbers are worthless when taken out of context, as they always seem to be. Studies have shown time and again that people become criminals based primarily on socioeconomic circumstances, such as poverty, poor education, exposure to violence, family structure and exposure to trauma. Because of centuries of systemic oppression, black Americans find themselves disproportionately living within those circumstances. Thus black Americans commit a disproportionate amount of crime.
Maybe you should ponder that.
Lastly, we've had a mostly reasonable and productive discussion here lately. Please don't get another thread locked with your rants.
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Out of curiosity, what is your take on Black on Black crime?
The same as my take on black on white, white on black, Asian on Hispanic, Choctaw on Cree, Tom on Jerry.
Ok, maybe not Tom on Jerry.
It is a crime. Punish the offenders and what can be done to reduce it?
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Ok, maybe not Tom on Jerry.
Pretty sure most of the violence was Jerry on Tom.
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Pretty sure most of the violence was Jerry on Tom.
Self-defense?
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Ners is the guy who taunts a Breast Cancer Awareness walk with “WHAT ABOUT TESTICULAR CANCER?!?!” ALL CANCERS MATTER
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Pretty sure most of the violence was Jerry on Tom.
Moe on Larry and Curly?
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Self-defense?
Kind of like the epidemic of Roadrunner on Coyote violence?
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Kind of like the epidemic of Roadrunner on Coyote violence?
Acme. The Amazon of Looney tunes.
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Presented without comment, no words, Buffalo, wow:
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1270333484528214018?s=19
https://www.thedailybeast.com/oan-trumps-new-favorite-channel-employs-kremlin-paid-journalist
“Buffalo protester shoved by Police could be an ANTIFA provocateur. 75 year old Martin Gugino was pushed away after appearing to scan police communications in order to black out the equipment. @OANN I watched, he fell harder than was pushed. Was aiming scanner. Could be a set up?“
-Trump
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Ners is the guy who taunts a Breast Cancer Awareness walk with “WHAT ABOUT TESTICULAR CANCER?!?!” ALL CANCERS MATTER
Zero agreement with Ners but this is a bad metaphor......cancer research is very corrupt with breast cancer being a great example. Given the outcomes and the "efficiency" of dollars donated something like Pancreatic cancer should be way more funded than Breast Cancer is but the marketing muscle fell in line behind Breast Cancer.
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https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/09/us/washington-family-accused-antifa/index.html
This is the type of thing that happens when tweets like that are made. Someone is going to believe them and take action.
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Zero agreement with Ners but this is a bad metaphor......cancer research is very corrupt with breast cancer being a great example. Given the outcomes and the "efficiency" of dollars donated something like Pancreatic cancer should be way more funded than Breast Cancer is but the marketing muscle fell in line behind Breast Cancer.
You must be a blast at parties.
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Self-defense?
Jerry is merely standing his ground.
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Zero agreement with Ners but this is a bad metaphor......cancer research is very corrupt with breast cancer being a great example. Given the outcomes and the "efficiency" of dollars donated something like Pancreatic cancer should be way more funded than Breast Cancer is but the marketing muscle fell in line behind Breast Cancer.
The breast cancer people were better at calling attention to their cause and rallying support behind it. That's not corrupt. That's the American way.
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While such concerns aren't trivial, they're far less concerning than what Biden risks if he goes the other way. At the end of the day, Biden probably doesn't lose sleep over the left wing suddenly deciding they're OK with another four years of Trump. A hatred for Trump and what he stands is and was always going to be what drives them to the polls. And that changes not one iota by Biden's stance on defunding. The AOC crowd isn't going to look at Biden's moderate take on this one issue and think "Hmm ... maybe Trump isn't so bad after all."
Remember, it wasn't the progressives staying home that cost Hillary in 2016. It was her losing the suburban, exurban and rural voters who previously voted for Obama. That's who Biden needs to appeal to most now.
You're probably right, but one of the things talked about is an enthusiasm gap....if Trump can increase enthusiasm by rallying around the spector of Defunding and Biden is milquetoast (per the AOC crowd) on defunding that decreases the enthusiasm on the left.....that can't be a good thing.
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The breast cancer people were better at calling attention to their cause and rallying support behind it. That's not corrupt. That's the American way.
You are correct, but organizations like Susan G Komen are also corrupt.....Their throughput on dollars donated is less than 30% and they sue lots and lots of people.
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Interesting to see NASCAR official Kirk Price take a knee during the anthem at Sunday's race in Atlanta.
“I come from humble beginnings and I believe in humble protesting,” said, Price, an Army veteran.
https://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/nascar-auto-racing/article243359321.html
(https://www.charlotteobserver.com/latest-news/jwqxq3/picture243367531/alternates/FREE_1140/NASCARAtlantaAutoRacing.JPG)
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Acme. The Amazon of Looney tunes.
Amazon
Can
Mail
Everything
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You are correct, but organizations like Susan G Komen are also corrupt.....Their throughput on dollars donated is less than 30% and they sue lots and lots of people.
Not sure that is true today. Looks more like 77.4% goes into the program. IIRc, back around 2012 they took flak for high salaries but that is under 10% today.
https://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary&orgid=4509
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You are correct, but organizations like Susan G Komen are also corrupt.....Their throughput on dollars donated is less than 30% and they sue lots and lots of people.
I believe it’s even worse when the NFL got involved. Wasn’t only like 10% of that merchandise sales going to cancer research?
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Well they will claim that it is for "cancer awareness." Like people aren't aware of cancer or something.
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You're probably right, but one of the things talked about is an enthusiasm gap....if Trump can increase enthusiasm by rallying around the spector of Defunding and Biden is milquetoast (per the AOC crowd) on defunding that decreases the enthusiasm on the left.....that can't be a good thing.
Normally, Eng, I would say that you are 100% correct.
But the #1 driver of enthusiasm on the left is getting trump out of office. That absolutely will not change before November - in fact, it will probably intensify considering the scorched earth campaign that he will run.
Also, it will be very clear that de-funding the police does not mean getting rid of police. Camden NJ has seen a large decrease in crime (murder, rape, robbery, assault, burglary, larceny, and auto theft) since de-funding their police dept. To be clear, the drop in unemployment also contributed to the drop.
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It's a fair question, but if I'm advising the Biden campaign, I'm far more worried about losing white suburban voters and swing state moderates who might recoil over "defund" rhetoric than I am worried about losing the far left wing. The left wing, at worst, might stay home. But a vote that stays home is better than a vote that goes to Trump.
And ultimately I think the hard left's abhorrence for Trump will have most of them turning out just to vote against him. Especially if Biden picks Kamala Harris as his running mate, which seems likely.
I agree with you, and hope that's how he plays it.
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Normally, Eng, I would say that you are 100% correct.
But the #1 driver of enthusiasm on the left is getting trump out of office. That absolutely will not change before November - in fact, it will probably intensify considering the scorched earth campaign that he will run.
Also, it will be very clear that de-funding the police does not mean getting rid of police. Camden NJ has seen a large decrease in crime (murder, rape, robbery, assault, burglary, larceny, and auto theft) since de-funding their police dept. To be clear, the drop in unemployment also contributed to the drop.
Yeah, conceptually it makes sense and I'm not sure I agree with the position I supposing, more talking it out than anything.
But the defund the police phrase is just really bad politics. Defund literally means to remove all funding, and watching some of the mental gymnastics people have to go through to "validate" that phrase. It's an extreme example but that's like calling it forced pregnancy instead of pro-life. There are some that might mean it literally, but the vast majority of folks that support it include myself don't mean it literally so why use it?
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Yeah, conceptually it makes sense and I'm not sure I agree with the position I supposing, more talking it out than anything.
But the defund the police phrase is just really bad politics. Defund literally means to remove all funding, and watching some of the mental gymnastics people have to go through to "validate" that phrase. It's an extreme example but that's like calling it forced pregnancy instead of pro-life. There are some that might mean it literally, but the vast majority of folks that support it include myself don't mean it literally so why use it?
The left generally sucks at messaging.
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Yeah, conceptually it makes sense and I'm not sure I agree with the position I supposing, more talking it out than anything.
But the defund the police phrase is just really bad politics. Defund literally means to remove all funding, and watching some of the mental gymnastics people have to go through to "validate" that phrase. It's an extreme example but that's like calling it forced pregnancy instead of pro-life. There are some that might mean it literally, but the vast majority of folks that support it include myself don't mean it literally so why use it?
The word they chose is terrible. What they want to do is RE-fund the police.
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It is being reported that the White House is currently preparing a speech on race relations. And it is being crafted by...wait for it...Stephen Miller.
https://twitter.com/AprilDRyan/status/1270433974934999041?s=19
https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2019/11/12/stephen-millers-affinity-white-nationalism-revealed-leaked-emails
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The left generally sucks at messaging.
Considering that anything that can't fit on a bumper stick is too complex for most on the left, I agree with you.
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Considering that anything that can't fit on a bumper stick is too complex for most on the left, I agree with you.
Hoax!
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Normally, Eng, I would say that you are 100% correct.
But the #1 driver of enthusiasm on the left is getting trump out of office. That absolutely will not change before November - in fact, it will probably intensify considering the scorched earth campaign that he will run.
Also, it will be very clear that de-funding the police does not mean getting rid of police. Camden NJ has seen a large decrease in crime (murder, rape, robbery, assault, burglary, larceny, and auto theft) since de-funding their police dept. To be clear, the drop in unemployment also contributed to the drop.
I dare anyone to walk the streets of Camden after dark.
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I dare anyone to walk the streets of Camden after dark.
Crime can't go up statistically if there is no one to report the crime to.
#Nowledge
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It is being reported that the White House is currently preparing a speech on race relations. And it is being crafted by...wait for it...Stephen Miller.
https://twitter.com/AprilDRyan/status/1270433974934999041?s=19
https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2019/11/12/stephen-millers-affinity-white-nationalism-revealed-leaked-emails
I mean, technically, a speech espousing white nationalism is still a speech about race
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I dare anyone to walk the streets of Camden after dark.
It still has a ways to go, but it is dramatically safer than just a few short years ago, when it was named the most dangerous city in America. Given where it started - yeah, it's still gonna have a level of danger that most of us would never want to face. But you have to start somewhere, and it is moving in the right direction.
Here's a link to the ten-year trend for many violent crimes, with stats from the NJ Attorney General:
https://www.tapinto.net/towns/camden/sections/law-and-justice/articles/camden-sees-crime-drop-over-past-decade
In ten years, an overall 41% drop in the crimes listed, with a 32% drop in murders. In fact, every category except rape and auto theft had a drop of more than 25%. That still isn't a place I'd want to live...but it's a whole lot more livable for the people already there.
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It is being reported that the White House is currently preparing a speech on race relations. And it is being crafted by...wait for it...Stephen Miller.
https://twitter.com/AprilDRyan/status/1270433974934999041?s=19
https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2019/11/12/stephen-millers-affinity-white-nationalism-revealed-leaked-emails
Will it leave George Floyd smiling?
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A deep dive about the Cross Fit CEO...
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/amphtml/ryancbrooks/crossfit-ceo-founder-zoom-greg-glassman-george-floyd?__twitter_impression=true
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I dare anyone to walk the streets of Camden after dark.
Black people really scare you that much?
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A deep dive about the Cross Fit CEO...
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/amphtml/ryancbrooks/crossfit-ceo-founder-zoom-greg-glassman-george-floyd?__twitter_impression=true
(https://img.allw.mn/content/yc/h3/widpcp2156077be52b1c4707152847_347x298.gif)
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(https://img.allw.mn/content/yc/h3/widpcp2156077be52b1c4707152847_347x298.gif)
I wish that gif was longer, I'm curious how far she actually rolls.
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(https://img.allw.mn/content/yc/h3/widpcp2156077be52b1c4707152847_347x298.gif)
I assume she won because she got it across the red line?
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Considering that anything that can't fit on a bumper stick is too complex for most on the left, I agree with you.
Why yes, it is the left that are simpletons
(https://www.laprogressive.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Trump-Supporter-720.jpg)
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Why yes, it is the left that are simpletons
The left is sooooo dumb.
Also, the left has seized control of the media, academia, the scientific community, government institutions, the national intelligence community, the entertainment industry and our major cities.
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The left is sooooo dumb.
Also, the left has seized control of the media, academia, the scientific community, government institutions, the national intelligence community, the entertainment industry and our major cities.
You're paying attention! Good for you.
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The left is sooooo dumb.
Also, the left has seized control of the media, academia, the scientific community, government institutions, the national intelligence community, the entertainment industry and our major cities.
If that’s what dumb means, sign me up!
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Why yes, it is the left that are simpletons
(https://www.laprogressive.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Trump-Supporter-720.jpg)
Awwww, you owned me.
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I don't have a "take" on black-on-black crime. Crime is bad. Crime should be prevented. Criminals should face consequences. This goes for all crime and all perpetrators. Do you have separate takes on black-on-black crime vs white-on-white crime?
Marches, rallies and protests regarding violent crime in black communities happen often in Chicago. You don't know this because you don't actually care about crime in black communities. You just use it as a talking point.
But you're in idiot if you can't understand why a police officer murdering a citizen draws more attention and outrage than one gang member killing another.
Your numbers are worthless when taken out of context, as they always seem to be. Studies have shown time and again that people become criminals based primarily on socioeconomic circumstances, such as poverty, poor education, exposure to violence, family structure and exposure to trauma. Because of centuries of systemic oppression, black Americans find themselves disproportionately living within those circumstances. Thus black Americans commit a disproportionate amount of crime.
Maybe you should ponder that.
Lastly, we've had a mostly reasonable and productive discussion here lately. Please don't get another thread locked with your rants.
Pondered. What are your thoughts on BLM's What We Believe:
https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/
We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable.
Call me crazy, but there seems to be a strong correlation between a two parent household, and traditional nuclear family structure that correlates with better life outcomes, less poverty, and in turn less propensity toward criminality.
No doubt I'm breaking out my checkbook to donate to BLM so some kid can be raised by the village in the inner city.
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Pondered. What are your thoughts on BLM's What We Believe:
https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/
We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable.
Call me crazy, but there seems to be a strong correlation between a two parent household, and traditional nuclear family structure that correlates with better life outcomes, less poverty, and in turn less propensity toward criminality.
No doubt I'm breaking out my checkbook to donate to BLM so some kid can be raised by the village in the inner city.
They make for good basketball players. Too bad Marquette no longer welcomes kids from "the hood."
Moron.
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https://www.phillymag.com/news/2020/06/08/joseph-bologna-philly-cop-charged/
Wtf
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https://www.phillymag.com/news/2020/06/08/joseph-bologna-philly-cop-charged/
Wtf
I've seen so many videos recently of his various police brutality, incidents, I've lost count.
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Door Bell Cam!!!
If not for someone's door bell camera, this police detective may have gotten away with.....intentionally running over an unarmed man and then getting out of his car and beating him while he was on the ground from being hit by the car. First cell phone cameras, now doorbell cameras, whatever it takes.
Protests make a difference. When the video went public, the general public started peacefully protesting nightly in front of the mayor's house as well as the Florissant Police Department. The media then started covering it. .....Now the detective is suspended. Special Prosecutor, Department of Justice and FBI investigating. Criminal charges likely. Nightly peaceful protests continue until more action is taken.
https://www.ksdk.com/amp/article/news/investigations/i-team-florissant-officer-in-viral-video-was-previously-accused-in-deadly-shooting-violent-beating-incidents/63-e52dfde9-637f-4f46-b37d-ce0b2e93ec4e?__twitter_impression=true
Florissant is located 3 miles from Ferguson.
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https://www.phillymag.com/news/2020/06/08/joseph-bologna-philly-cop-charged/
Wtf
This is not the case of one bad cop. It is a corrupt police force. No cop speaking out about the incident. Hundreds, even thousands of Philly cops need to be fired.
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And replaced with whom?
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https://www.instagram.com/p/CBBFoSZJ76I/?igshid=bxdevu5o0m9p
So yes, this is “our” problem. This is the problem “we” created for “them.” And it’s just compounded on itself since it became outlawed. “We” can give “them” an equal chance to get things like home loans so they can get out of “the hood.”
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https://www.instagram.com/p/CBBFoSZJ76I/?igshid=bxdevu5o0m9p
So yes, this is “our” problem. This is the problem “we” created for “them.” And it’s just compounded on itself since it became outlawed. “We” can give “them” an equal chance to get things like home loans so they can get out of “the hood.”
Pathetic white guilt
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Pondered. What are your thoughts on BLM's What We Believe:
https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/
We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable.
Call me crazy, but there seems to be a strong correlation between a two parent household, and traditional nuclear family structure that correlates with better life outcomes, less poverty, and in turn less propensity toward criminality.
No doubt I'm breaking out my checkbook to donate to BLM so some kid can be raised by the village in the inner city.
First, two parent household and "traditional nuclear structure" are not synonymous.
That said, it's well-established kids do better when raised with more than one adult family member in the home. That could opposite-sex parents, same-sex parents, a father and a grandmother, a mother and an aunt, etc. Multiple adult family members typically translates into better financial support, more emotional support, more educational support, etc.
This is especially true in our country, where our safety net and level of social support sucks compared with most Western industrial countries. Other countries with comparatively high rates of single-parent households - Denmark, the UK, the Baltics, France, etc., don't have nearly our crime problems.
Shockingly, I don't have to believe every tenet espoused by BLM to believe policing in this country, especially in minority communities, is deeply flawed and unjust.
And, like your faux concern about "black-on-black" crime, your raising this only as a distraction, not because you actually care.
So when are you going to explain to use the difference between black on black crime and other crime?
And why don't you tell us why you seem to believe black people are inherently more violent.
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Why yes, it is the left that are simpletons
(https://www.laprogressive.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Trump-Supporter-720.jpg)
tell me more smith. you know nothing about this guy, yet hold this up to illustrate what? this is how you view what appears to be a peace loving, happy guy. i sure as hell would rather have this guy on my side than any of those angry thugs who were burning down businesses, beating up innocent people, killing cops, holding our cities hostage. it is going to take years to recover from this in more ways than one. and solved nothing
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tell me more smith. you know nothing about this guy, yet hold this up to illustrate what? this is how you view what appears to be a peace loving, happy guy. i sure as hell would rather have this guy on my side than any of those angry thugs who were burning down businesses, beating up innocent people, killing cops, holding our cities hostage. it is going to take years to recover from this in more ways than one. and solved nothing
The guy is waving the flag of a treasonous movement that was borne from the desire to enslave fellow humans and that started a bloody war to preserve jt.
I'd say that tells us plenty about him.
What does it say about you that you consider him a peace loving happy guy?
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The guy is waving the flag of a treasonous movement that was borne from the desire to enslave fellow humans and that started a bloody war to preserve jt.
I'd say that tells us plenty about him.
What does it say about you that you consider him a peace loving happy guy?
where is the context of all that pak man? all i see is what i see. if that is in fact the narrative, i stand corrected, but no where is that apparent here
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now that the smoke is clearing, the damage control begins-
enough with the videos, how about some audio-
https://www.nationalreview.com/news/chicago-aldermen-grill-mayor-lightfoot-over-refusal-to-deploy-national-guard-widely/
who do these mayors really stand up for?
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where is the context of all that pak man? all i see is what i see. if that is in fact the narrative, i stand corrected, but no where is that apparent here
He's waving a Confederate battle flag. You know, the one just banned by the US Navy and Marine Corps because of what it stands for.
Is there a context these days in which the battle flag of a movement that launched a war on the United States of America is a symbol of peace and happiness?
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Take a weekend away from scoop and returned to quite the roller coaster ride.
How 'bout them Covid protests tho?
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And replaced with whom?
So, stay with the status quo?
I do know that is not what you are saying, Tower, but measures need to be taken to stop the systematic racism that infects police departments.
Follow the Camden example. Excessive force complaints against cops have gone down 95% since they defunded police 7 years ago. Violent crimes down over 40 %. Drastic measures that produced drastic results.
Not a cure-all, and each city is different, but a step in the right direction.
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tell me more smith. you know nothing about this guy, yet hold this up to illustrate what? this is how you view what appears to be a peace loving, happy guy. i sure as hell would rather have this guy on my side than any of those angry thugs who were burning down businesses, beating up innocent people, killing cops, holding our cities hostage. it is going to take years to recover from this in more ways than one. and solved nothing
You want the Confederate flag waving guy on your side...
Because of course you do.
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https://www.yahoo.com/news/pope-sends-strong-message-us-065655151.html
For those who are still Catholic, the pope views BLM as equally important as abortion.
I feel happy about this. Often over the years, I have posted various versions of Catholic social teaching. Anti-abortion, anti-gay marriage, yes. But also pro environment, anti unfettered capitalism, pro worker, anti racism. Mr. Gugino in Buffalo, before his skull was fractured, had a long history of working for social justice. Housing for the poor, fair employment standards, anti racism. To accuse him of possibly being part of ANTIFA? Every time I think the nadir has been reached, I am proven wrong.
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tell me more smith. you know nothing about this guy, yet hold this up to illustrate what? this is how you view what appears to be a peace loving, happy guy. i sure as hell would rather have this guy on my side than any of those angry thugs who were burning down businesses, beating up innocent people, killing cops, holding our cities hostage. it is going to take years to recover from this in more ways than one. and solved nothing
Where do you draw the line, rocket?
If the flag had a big swastika on it, would that "peace loving, happy guy" be somebody you still want on your side? How about if the flag had an image of a noose and shackles?
Is it really impossible for you to comprehend that for many (probably a significant majority of) black folks, a confederate flag IS like those other symbols I mentioned?
Sure, it's not as graphic, but it's every bit the hateful reminder of a time when black people were treated like property to be bought, sold, enslaved, beaten, starved, raped and murdered.
Is it really impossible for you to see that, rocket?
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tell me more smith. you know nothing about this guy, yet hold this up to illustrate what? this is how you view what appears to be a peace loving, happy guy. i sure as hell would rather have this guy on my side than any of those angry thugs who were burning down businesses, beating up innocent people, killing cops, holding our cities hostage. it is going to take years to recover from this in more ways than one. and solved nothing
So what are going to do about it then? You admit there is a problem to be solved, but you don't seem terribly interested in fixing it. Just defending a guy waving a flag representing a rebellious movement to retain the ability to enslave others.
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So what are going to do about it then? You admit there is a problem to be solved, but you don't seem terribly interested in fixing it. Just defending a guy waving a flag representing a rebellious movement to retain the ability to enslave others.
Rocket is the 'good cop' that stands behind the 'bad cop'.
Defending racism makes you a racist.
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Charlotte Observer columnist's piece today is headlined: NASCAR, it’s time for the Confederate flag to go. No exceptions. No excuses. No more.
https://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/scott-fowler/article243415576.html?
Bubba Wallace is right.
It’s time — past time, actually — for the Confederate flag to be completely banned from all NASCAR tracks. Period. No exceptions. If you try to bring one inside a track, you forfeit the right to get inside the doors.
Wallace — the lone black driver in NASCAR’s top series — said on CNN on Monday night about Confederate flags: “No one should feel uncomfortable when they come to a NASCAR race. So it starts with Confederate flags. Get them out of here.”
Can't argue. There is not one solitary reason why confederate flags should be allowed in an American sporting event, any more than somebody should be allowed to enter an event naked.
You don't like your "freedom" to wave a confederate flag being infringed upon? Cool. Go someplace they're allowed. You don't like your "freedom" to enter a sports facility with no clothes on being infringed upon? Cool. Go someplace where you can.
It couldn't be more simple.
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He'll be out of the sport soon for saying this. To many in the south, the confederate flag is more important than the American flag.
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Outside of international championship events like the World Cup or the Olympics, what is the point of flying national flags at sporting events anyway? They shouldn’t be there in the first place.
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Outside of international championship events like the World Cup or the Olympics, what is the point of flying national flags at sporting events anyway? They shouldn’t be there in the first place.
I'd agree but the NHL and NBA have Canadian teams.
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I'd agree but the NHL and NBA have Canadian teams.
Why does that matter? Those teams aren't representing the country.
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Why does that matter? Those teams aren't representing the country.
Yeah I suppose you're right. Should probs take away the national anthem to since again there's no reason to do it for multinational pro sports teams that don't represent the country.
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The World Cup and the Olympics are worldwide championship events where participants play on national teams or represent their countries in individual sports. The NHL, NBA, MLB, etc., are not. Frankly I don’t really understand why we sing national anthems before sporting events either.
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The World Cup and the Olympics are worldwide championship events where participants play on national teams or represent their countries in individual sports. The NHL, NBA, MLB, etc., are not. Frankly I don’t really understand why we sing national anthems before sporting events either.
The same reason we fly fighter jets.
Nationalism.
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The same reason we fly fighter jets.
Nationalism.
Same reason North Korea we have big military parades showing off tanks and the like
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At this point there is zero difference between flying a Nazi flag or Swastika in Germany and flying any version of Confederate flags. Those things were flown by horrific regimes that committed atrocities. They represent nothing but hate and oppression
Note, I believe this standard should apply to symbols items that are directly tied to hate and/or atrocities. A symbol like the Join or Die, Betsy Ross, and Gadsden Flags might have in some places been co-opted by organizations that espouse hate but the symbols themselves don't originate in hate nor have a hateful connotation outside of modern application.
Put another way, if you have to come up with a statement that says "yes but it means something different now" it's out. If the statement is "originally it meant something positive" then it's allowed.
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Put another way, if you have to come up with a statement that says "yes but it means something different now" it's out. If the statement is "originally it meant something positive" then it's allowed.
Except if it is was positive hindu symbol?
I generally agree with you, but I think it's not easy and needs to be case by case based on how horrific the group or statement behind the co opted positive symbol.
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Except if it is was positive hindu symbol?
I generally agree with you, but I think it's not easy and needs to be case by case based on how horrific the group or statement behind the co opted positive symbol.
That's why I had the Germany modifier. If a swastika appears in India (I've been in hotel elevators there with the original symbol mosaic'd in the walls) then it's in it's original context and therefore an acceptable "usage".
Let's pretend the Confederate Battle Flag somehow got transported to Australia and was used by the aborigines as a symbol of their unity or struggle for equality....in that context the symbol is a-ok because it originated in that context as a positive symbol, fly it in the US and you should probably be labeled a racist.
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Related .... NASCAR has officially banned the display of the Confederate flag at any of its events or properties.
Good for them.
There was a time when displaying that flag could have been seen as misguided, but benevolent. That time is past. Anyone doing it today is doing it to be antagonistic.
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At this point there is zero difference between flying a Nazi flag or Swastika in Germany and flying any version of Confederate flags. Those things were flown by horrific regimes that committed atrocities. They represent nothing but hate and oppression
Note, I believe this standard should apply to symbols items that are directly tied to hate and/or atrocities. A symbol like the Join or Die, Betsy Ross, and Gadsden Flags might have in some places been co-opted by organizations that espouse hate but the symbols themselves don't originate in hate nor have a hateful connotation outside of modern application.
Put another way, if you have to come up with a statement that says "yes but it means something different now" it's out. If the statement is "originally it meant something positive" then it's allowed.
Very well stated, eng.
The claims that some symbols went from inherently bad to somehow good or neutral is a classic example of trying to put lipstick on a pig.
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That's why I had the Germany modifier. If a swastika appears in India (I've been in hotel elevators there with the original symbol mosaic'd in the walls) then it's in it's original context and therefore an acceptable "usage".
Let's pretend the Confederate Battle Flag somehow got transported to Australia and was used by the aborigines as a symbol of their unity or struggle for equality....in that context the symbol is a-ok because it originated in that context as a positive symbol, fly it in the US and you should probably be labeled a racist.
I've actually seen the original swastika symbol in Germany. The Roman-Germanic Museum in Cologne has original Roman construction where they are built in.
Weird to see.
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https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/08/us/brevard-county-florida-police-union-misconduct-trnd/index.html?fbclid=IwAR0uGwbKTB5t5C8xXf4wZR7uZhK2oWMi8HaSV6zwKRlvEakv6NSn4hBkhCw
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https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/08/us/brevard-county-florida-police-union-misconduct-trnd/index.html?fbclid=IwAR0uGwbKTB5t5C8xXf4wZR7uZhK2oWMi8HaSV6zwKRlvEakv6NSn4hBkhCw
"Lower taxes, no spineless leadership, or dumb mayors rambling on at press conferences... Plus... we got your back!"
Sounds like the motto for what has been cops' battle cry for centuries, especially the last sentence.
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It is being reported that the White House is currently preparing a speech on race relations. And it is being crafted by...wait for it...Stephen Miller.
https://twitter.com/AprilDRyan/status/1270433974934999041?s=19
https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2019/11/12/stephen-millers-affinity-white-nationalism-revealed-leaked-emails
Let's check in and see how this is going so far:
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1270787974880526337?s=19
He's headed to Tulsa, OK on Juneteenth day which is a day recognized for the end of slavery, near the anniversary of one of the country's most historical racist incidents in Tulsa.
https://www.history.com/.amp/topics/roaring-twenties/tulsa-race-massacre?__twitter_impression=true
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I dont know any republicans that support the KKK, but it that is your myopic world view, i suggest you get out more.
And i know, OMB. ::)
Meet the Tennessee Republican State Legislature
Tennessee Republicans Rally To Preserve Statue & Holiday For KKK Founder
Republican lawmakers in Tennessee resisted a push from protesters and their Democratic colleagues to eliminate a holiday for Confederate general and KKK Founder Nathan Bedford Forrest and remove a bust of him from the State Capitol, which one black lawmaker compared to a bust of Hitler.
Republican lawmakers also voted Wednesday to preserve Nathan Bedford Forrest Day while relieving Lee of the burden of making a public proclamation, which he has been criticized for in the past.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/andrewsolender/2020/06/10/tennessee-republicans-rally-to-preserve-statue--holiday-for-kkk-founder/#5ef1aa6d71f7
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Eye'm all four knot playin' the national anthem prior two sportin' events. Pretty sure the gladiators can preform witout hearin' da Star Spangled Banner befour headin' out ta war, aina?
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https://www.tmz.com/2020/06/10/wisconsin-gym-anytime-fitness-i-cant-breathe-workout-sign-apology/
Honestly how stupid are people? I mean, even if you are somehow ignorant and dumb enough to think making light of this is okay and/or motivating and/or funny, how are you not smart enough to think, “Hey, maybe this isn’t exactly the time for this?” How insensitive and distasteful do you have to be?
And that’s not even getting into the “explanation.” You wanted to make a workout so hard that you feel what George Floyd felt? What? A workout to suffocate the life out of you with someone kneeling on your neck?
Oh and of course you’re sorry that others are offended. Because it’s they’re fault, not yours.
Attitudes like this are why we are where we are in this country. It’s why George Floyd felt what you apparently somehow wanted your customers to feel.
Honestly dumbfounded by the stupidity of people.
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https://www.tmz.com/2020/06/10/wisconsin-gym-anytime-fitness-i-cant-breathe-workout-sign-apology/
Honestly how stupid are people? I mean, even if you are somehow ignorant and dumb enough to think making light of this is okay and/or motivating and/or funny, how are you not smart enough to think, “Hey, maybe this isn’t exactly the time for this?” How insensitive and distasteful do you have to be?
And that’s not even getting into the “explanation.” You wanted to make a workout so hard that you feel what George Floyd felt? What? A workout to suffocate the life out of you with someone kneeling on your neck?
Oh and of course you’re sorry that others are offended. Because it’s they’re fault, not yours.
Attitudes like this is why we are where we are in this country. It’s why George Floyd felt what you apparently somehow wanted your customers to feel.
Honestly dumbfounded by the stupidity of people.
Racists are never concerned about being perceived as stupid.
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Wow - you can’t fake that kind of appalling.
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Maybe I am naive or not understanding something, but it seems to me that Trump supporting the renaming of bases named after Confederate generals would be a VERY easy win for him. It's not going to prevent any of his supporters for voting for him, and can show people on the fence that he is trying to do something substantive.
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Maybe I am naive or not understanding something, but it seems to me that Trump supporting the renaming of bases named after Confederate generals would be a VERY easy win for him. It's not going to prevent any of his supporters for voting for him, and can show people on the fence that he is trying to do something substantive.
Under any normal circumstances, a President changing this sort of thing would be a layup. Trump shoots from half court though. Sure, sometimes it goes in, but usually its an air ball.
Naming them after generals who fought and won major battles for the US makes sense. Hell, even naming them after former presidents makes more sense... not to mention he could hope that someday one would be named after himself.
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And speaking of generals ...
Gen. Mark Milley, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the highest ranking officer in the U.S. Armed Forces, apologized today for taking part in Trump's photo-op walk last week.
https://twitter.com/davidfrum/status/1271073791817461760?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet
"I should not have been there. My presence in that moment and in that environment created a perception of the military involved in domestic politics. As a commissioned uniformed officer, it was a mistake that I have learned from, and I sincerely hope we all can learn from it."
Milley and Defense Secretary Mark Esper are among the many current and former Pentagon officials trying to distance themselves from Trump's worst inclinations and actions. They also were two officials who said they would have been open to renaming military bases current named after traitors.
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Maybe I am naive or not understanding something, but it seems to me that Trump supporting the renaming of bases named after Confederate generals would be a VERY easy win for him. It's not going to prevent any of his supporters for voting for him, and can show people on the fence that he is trying to do something substantive.
Because he hates looking weak, soft, not tough, etc....when in the unhealthy aspects of his personality type definition. When healthier, his personality type is more of a magnanimous person. He of course rarely if ever performs in his healthier levels.
In addition to that, by definition, add the narcissistic component which is to always seek social admiration from select people or groups, not just anyone. He has a fear of upsetting the cult group think tribalists in his base.
He personally has no empathy by narcissistic definition, so he is personally completely indifferent to the topic. Narcissism also explains the inability to have empathy by definition. So getting peer social admiration, and not looking weak are his initial primary motivations here.
For example he is still tweeting and talking about the bunker. The optics of looking weak and soft are devastating for him. Same guy who said he didn't like soldiers who were captured.
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Let's check in and see how this is going so far:
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1270787974880526337?s=19
He's headed to Tulsa, OK on Juneteenth day which is a day recognized for the end of slavery, near the anniversary of one of the country's most historical racist incidents in Tulsa.
https://www.history.com/.amp/topics/roaring-twenties/tulsa-race-massacre?__twitter_impression=true
One of the hundreds of things that should’ve been the end to Donald Trump but somehow the brainwashed MAGAs will get all fired up about patriotism and ‘Merica with this.
Pretty disgusting.
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And speaking of generals ...
Gen. Mark Milley, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the highest ranking officer in the U.S. Armed Forces, apologized today for taking part in Trump's photo-op walk last week.
https://twitter.com/davidfrum/status/1271073791817461760?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet
"I should not have been there. My presence in that moment and in that environment created a perception of the military involved in domestic politics. As a commissioned uniformed officer, it was a mistake that I have learned from, and I sincerely hope we all can learn from it."
Milley and Defense Secretary Mark Esper are among the many current and former Pentagon officials trying to distance themselves from Trump's worst inclinations and actions. They also were two officials who said they would have been open to renaming military bases current named after traitors.
Pretty sure Trump will soon be dismissing him as just another “weak“ or “overrated“ general.
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Every day, this is why people protest:
https://twitter.com/washingtonpost/status/1271034860094869504?s=19
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(https://i.imgur.com/9rJx2GR.jpg)
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Pretty sure Trump will soon be dismissing him as just another “weak“ or “overrated“ general.
Another thing that's wild to me. The party that supposedly has a boner for all service members is supporting a president who has consistently dismissed top military officials as weak, crazy, overrated, etc. how is it that his supporters are cool with that?
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Pretty sure Trump will soon be dismissing him as just another “weak“ or “overrated“ general.
I am sure that Milley and Esper got their a$$e$ handed to them by other generals more than once last week. They were both reminded of their duty to country by Mattis, Mullen and many others.
To bad that some here who hold themselves up as military heroes put Trump over their oath to serve the country.
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Another thing that's wild to me. The party that supposedly has a boner for all service members is supporting a president who has consistently dismissed top military officials as weak, crazy, overrated, etc. how is it that his supporters are cool with that?
Bunker Boy also attacks Gold Star families, as well.
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Bunker Boy also attacks Gold Star families, as well.
He only supports people who don't get captured.
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Maybe I am naive or not understanding something, but it seems to me that Trump supporting the renaming of bases named after Confederate generals would be a VERY easy win for him. It's not going to prevent any of his supporters for voting for him, and can show people on the fence that he is trying to do something substantive.
When Trump said he could shoot someone on 5th Avenue and not lose a single vote, he was right, but it is a one way street. That is, it doesn't matter what vile, deplorable thing he does, they are going to stick with him. I don't think it works in the other direction, however.
If he does do something decent, if it goes against the MAGA culture, I think he does risk losing voters. Let's say he was the one to suggest that NASCAR ditch the Confederate flag, for instance. In a situation like that, where he is doing something decent and substantive, I think he would see some voters peel away. Obviously those voters aren't going to vote for Biden, but they'll either not vote at all or find some fringe candidate from the Constitution party to vote for. Either way, Trump loses votes if he acts like a decent human being.
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The irony of the "don't change the base named for Confederates" folks, at least in the case of Ft Bragg their honoree was an f'ing loser. Braxton Bragg was an idiot and lost nearly every major engagement he commanded including getting his pants absolutely pulled down by Grant at Chattanooga. He was hated by his men and several Confederate officers challenged him to duels, dude was an a$$hole loser, we need to honor him?
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He only supports people who don't get captured.
Or killed.
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The irony of the "don't change the base named for Confederates" folks, at least in the case of Ft Bragg their honoree was an f'ing loser. Braxton Bragg was an idiot and lost nearly every major engagement he commanded including getting his pants absolutely pulled down by Grant at Chattanooga. He was hated by his men and several Confederate officers challenged him to duels, dude was an a$$hole loser, we need to honor him?
None of this even matters, Eng.
The man was a traitor. He took an oath at West Point to defend the United States. He proceeded to kill United States soldiers.
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Tulsa cops handcuff and arrest a black teen for the very serious offense of "jaywalking." And by jaywalking, they mean walking down an empty street with no sidewalks.
https://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/watch-now-tulsa-police-release-video-of-officers-handcuffing-black-teens-for-jaywalking-internal-investigation/article_8b0c88e3-bbbf-5b39-9457-51c88fa2d3ad.html
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Tulsa cops handcuff and arrest a black teen for the very serious offense of "jaywalking." And by jaywalking, they mean walking down an empty street with no sidewalks.
https://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/watch-now-tulsa-police-release-video-of-officers-handcuffing-black-teens-for-jaywalking-internal-investigation/article_8b0c88e3-bbbf-5b39-9457-51c88fa2d3ad.html
The arrogance of cops really is stunning.
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And, as for the feel good coppy stuff:
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/nypd-robert-cattani-kneeling-apology_n_5ee26436c5b664f94c4e34b5
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The irony of the "don't change the base named for Confederates" folks, at least in the case of Ft Bragg their honoree was an f'ing loser. Braxton Bragg was an idiot and lost nearly every major engagement he commanded including getting his pants absolutely pulled down by Grant at Chattanooga. He was hated by his men and several Confederate officers challenged him to duels, dude was an a$$hole loser, we need to honor him?
It does beg the question of why the base was named for such an unpopular and unsuccessful person in the first place.
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It does beg the question of why the base was named for such an unpopular and unsuccessful person in the first place.
It’s baffling. Supposedly it was due to his success in the Mexican American War, but surely there were other military figures from North Carolina more fitting?! Braxton Bragg is a great name but my god, his wiki page reads like an Onion article. He was atrocious as a general. and reviled by his men (to the point they tried to allegedly assassinate him) and even Jefferson Davis didn’t like him
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https://www.fox32chicago.com/news/fop-chicago-officers-who-kneel-with-protesters-could-be-kicked-out-of-police-union
Chicago making puzzling decisions
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None of this even matters, Eng.
The man was a traitor. He took an oath at West Point to defend the United States. He proceeded to kill United States soldiers.
West Point has a neat little Museum devoted to its graduates. And its free! But what struck me when I visited it a few years ago is that by far the most paraphernalia and exhibits are devoted to Robert E Lee. Far more for Lee than Eisenhower, Grant, Patton, etc. Only thing I could figure is that the Lost Cause crowd has a lot of influence there.
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West Point has a neat little Museum devoted to its graduates. And its free! But what struck me when I visited it a few years ago is that by far the most paraphernalia and exhibits are devoted to Robert E Lee. Far more for Lee than Eisenhower, Grant, Patton, etc. Only thing I could figure is that the Lost Cause crowd has a lot of influence there.
To be fair, Lee was the head of West Point for almost 5 years. And Confederate ties aside, unlike Bragg or Benning, he was a legendary military commander and one of the only reasons the South ever had a fighting chance.
Not excuse his Confederate allegiance, but he was one of the top military minds of the US’s first century as a nation. I get the reverence from a purely military perspective, especially with his West Point ties
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Folks are trying to get rid of the principal of the school where I assistant coached girls basketball from 2017-19.
https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/education/article243410811.html?
Since he took over Ardrey Kell High School in 2010, David Switzer has been considered one of Charlotte-Mecklenburg Schools’ top principals, winning the district’s principal of the year award in 2013-2014 and a national award in 2017.
But days after a Black Lives Matter display on Ardrey Kell’s spirit rock was vandalized and repainted amid protests over the police killing of George Floyd in Minnesota, the latest in a series of racial incidents at the school, a petition calling for Switzer to resign has drawn more than 2,300 signatures.
Former and current Ardrey Kell students said that Switzer directly contributed to a culture of intolerance at the school, using crude language, berating students and failing to seriously discipline those who made racist comments. The nine students who spoke with the Observer said despite the series of racial incidents that have taken place at the school, Switzer and Ardrey Kell leadership did not pursue meaningful changes or discussions to educate the entire student body about race and racism.
In multiple cases, Switzer referred to predominantly black or lower-income schools in CMS, such as Rocky River, as “the ghetto,” according to five former students. They said that Switzer sometimes contrasted Ardrey Kell to predominantly black schools in derogatory ways, including one instance where he verbally reprimanded black students on their clothing by telling them they were not at West Mecklenburg High School.
It is the second-largest HS in NC. It's in a rich area of Charlotte, and the student body is predominantly white.
The incident that probably got the most press occurred a couple years ago when the best player on the boys basketball team, a white kid, used the n-word (among other derogatory remarks) in a snapchat. Also, this past season, the best player on the girls team, also white, spit in a black teammate's face after practice; she said she was joking, pretending to spit, but the looie somehow went out anyway. Obviously, those two incidents weren't the principal's fault, but there does seem to be a pretty bad racial culture at the school. I don't think I'd feel very comfortable there if I were black.
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And, as for the feel good coppy stuff:
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/nypd-robert-cattani-kneeling-apology_n_5ee26436c5b664f94c4e34b5
In the interest of sharing some actual feel good coppy stuff. Driving home tonight, there was a lone black 18ish year old male protesting on a corner of a busy street. A cop car pulls up in the parking lot with the lights on. I'm thinking the worst.
A young white female cop gets out of the patrol car, approaches the kid and shakes his hand and says something. She returned to her patrol car and returned with two gatorades and two subway sandwiches. She sat and ate her dinner with him while he protested.
Great gesture.
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In the interest of sharing some actual feel good coppy stuff. Driving home tonight, there was a lone black 18ish year old male protesting on a corner of a busy street. A cop car pulls up in the parking lot with the lights on. I'm thinking the worst.
A young white female cop gets out of the patrol car, approaches the kid and shakes his hand and says something. She returned to her patrol car and returned with two gatorades and two subway sandwiches. She sat and ate her dinner with him while he protested.
Great gesture.
Little things can make a big difference. I’d bet that interaction sticks with the kid for a long time.
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None of us had ever heard of NASCAR truck-driving loser Ray Ciccarelli, but we all can be quite certain he's a d-bag.
https://twitter.com/SteveHofstetter/status/1271103965682298880?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet
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Fire every single one of them.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/chicago-police-caught-tape-lounging-making-popcorn-congressman-s-office-n1230191
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To be fair, Lee was the head of West Point for almost 5 years. And Confederate ties aside, unlike Bragg or Benning, he was a legendary military commander and one of the only reasons the South ever had a fighting chance.
Not excuse his Confederate allegiance, but he was one of the top military minds of the US’s first century as a nation. I get the reverence from a purely military perspective, especially with his West Point ties
It’s like having a museum to honor revolutionary war heroes and devoting most of the space to Benedict Arnold because he was a great general. Lee was a great general who sort of went downhill once Jackson was killed. Pickets Charge is a military disaster on a par with the Charge of the light Brigade.
MacArthur had as much military success as Lee and had a much more significant tenure as superintendent of West Point, yet he barely rates a mention at the museum. As a military mind Sherman was probably 50 years ahead of his time yet he likewise is snubbed. Ike -D-Day?
No doubt in my mind this is the result of lobbying by the Loss Cause who have perpetuated the cult of Robert E Lee and who have glorified a traitor as some kind of national hero.
https://www.history.com/news/how-the-cult-of-robert-e-lee-was-born
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None of us had ever heard of NASCAR truck-driving loser Ray Ciccarelli, but we all can be quite certain he's a d-bag.
https://twitter.com/SteveHofstetter/status/1271103965682298880?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet
@sportspickle: "I'm sick and tired of politics being injected into sports ... unless it's Southern politics of the 1860s, which are very important" -- op/ed by angry NASCAR fan on the banning of the Confederate flag
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It’s like having a museum to honor revolutionary war heroes and devoting most of the space to Benedict Arnold because he was a great general.
Arnold really was a great general. He was key to winning Saratoga and Gates, who was a poor general, got all the credit.
Just like when your boss keeps taking credit for all your good ideas so you quit and go to a competitor.
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It’s like having a museum to honor revolutionary war heroes and devoting most of the space to Benedict Arnold because he was a great general. Lee was a great general who sort of went downhill once Jackson was killed. Pickets Charge is a military disaster on a par with the Charge of the light Brigade.
MacArthur had as much military success as Lee and had a much more significant tenure as superintendent of West Point, yet he barely rates a mention at the museum. As a military mind Sherman was probably 50 years ahead of his time yet he likewise is snubbed. Ike -D-Day?
No doubt in my mind this is the result of lobbying by the Loss Cause who have perpetuated the cult of Robert E Lee and who have glorified a traitor as some kind of national hero.
https://www.history.com/news/how-the-cult-of-robert-e-lee-was-born
That comparison doesn’t hold up cause it’s about West Point and it’s graduates, not just the Civil War. Lee was already very accomplished, had been Super of West Point, and was going to be one of the leaders of the Union before he defected.
I think Lee’s story and place in history is just compelling for many reasons. And I don’t see West Point as the type of place to bow to revisionist history nonsense. Lee wasn’t viewed as a contemptible traitor even immediately after the war. Lee commanded respect and “favorable” treatment as soon as it ended. From northerners all the way to Grant himself. This isn’t some odd campaign in the last 100 years to whitewash his legacy. It was rather intact from the start.
However, I do agree about the under appreciation of Sherman. Maybe due to his March, but he was a military genius through and through.
Arnold really was a great general. He was key to winning Saratoga and Gates, who was a poor general, got all the credit.
Just like when your boss keeps taking credit for all your good ideas so you quit and go to a competitor.
I wouldn’t say he was a “great” general. He was key at Saratoga, but his career up to that point was basically as a decently talented a**hole who couldn’t get along with anyone and almost got himself canned multiple times and then tried to quit but Washington wouldn’t let him. Dude couldn’t get along with any of his peers, but was lucky to be favored by ol George W
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Lee wasn’t viewed as a contemptible traitor even immediately after the war. Lee commanded respect and “favorable” treatment as soon as it ended. From northerners all the way to Grant himself. This isn’t some odd campaign in the last 100 years to whitewash his legacy. It was rather intact from the start.
Not accurate. He was indicted for treason, his property at Arlington was taken away without compensation, he was prohibited from holding public office, and, for a period of time, he was barred from voting. Only a desire for reconciliation saved him.
"Many northerners felt Lee had been lucky to escape the hangman’s noose".
https://historynewsnetwork.org/article/169189
" The New York Times was a leading proponent for treason charges against Lee, writing in a June 4, 1865 editorial: “He has ‘levied war against the United States’ more strenuously than any other man in the land, and thereby has been specially guilty of the crime of treason, as defined in the Constitution of the United States,” and “whether Gen. Lee should be hung or not, is a minor question.”
https://www.civilwarprofiles.com/grant-protects-lee-from-treason-trial/
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Keep up the purely political shit and we'll shut down the whole covid board.
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'bout tyme, aina?
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I wouldn’t say he was a “great” general. He was key at Saratoga, but his career up to that point was basically as a decently talented a**hole who couldn’t get along with anyone and almost got himself canned multiple times and then tried to quit but Washington wouldn’t let him. Dude couldn’t get along with any of his peers, but was lucky to be favored by ol George W
Strategically and tactically he was, but if to be "great" he also has to be not-an-a*hole", then I agree with you.
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Strategically and tactically he was, but if to be "great" he also has to be not-an-a*hole", then I agree with you.
Tactically, yes he was outstanding. Strategically, no idea he was never able to exercise independent command except for the Virginia tidewater campaign and that ended at Yorktown so........
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Keep up the purely political shit and we'll shut down the whole covid board.
Thank you.
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I think Lee’s story and place in history is just compelling for many reasons. And I don’t see West Point as the type of place to bow to revisionist history nonsense. Lee wasn’t viewed as a contemptible traitor even immediately after the war. Lee commanded respect and “favorable” treatment as soon as it ended. From northerners all the way to Grant himself. This isn’t some odd campaign in the last 100 years to whitewash his legacy. It was rather intact from the start.
The "revisionist history nonsense" is actually the praise, honor and recoginition he had been receiving for being a traitor. I really don't care what his contemporaries thought of him at the time. I don't care how "facinating" he was as a general.
His memory is now getting the treatment it deserves.
Really everything that is happening now is happening because there has never been any sort of honest reckoning about how we have dealt with race in this country.
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Arnold really was a great general. He was key to winning Saratoga and Gates, who was a poor general, got all the credit.
Just like when your boss keeps taking credit for all your good ideas so you quit and go to a competitor.
Arnold is "recognized" at the Saratoga memorial except his name does not appear and only his boot is depicted on the memorial statue.
Arnold's events are reenacted locally here in New Haven every year. It's called Powder Day. He remains nameless but the reenactment takes place right after Lexington & Concord and it's of him leading militia volunteers to the New Haven Colony Powder House and demanding the guns and ammunition. They agreed and gave to Arnold and his men marched to Boston to join the militia gathering there.
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To be fair, Lee was the head of West Point for almost 5 years. And Confederate ties aside, unlike Bragg or Benning, he was a legendary military commander and one of the only reasons the South ever had a fighting chance.
Not excuse his Confederate allegiance, but he was one of the top military minds of the US’s first century as a nation. I get the reverence from a purely military perspective, especially with his West Point ties
Watch the Grant documentary that ran over Memorial Day weekend. I'm through 2 of 3 episodes.
During the war, Southerners said Grant only one in the West because he wasn't going against Lee. The people who knew Grant said Lee was only winning because he wasn't directly fighting against Grant. Sherman was one of Grant's closest Generals and the one Grant trusted the most.
Documentary says Grant recognized Southerners as fellow Americans who went astray in their ideals.
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None of us had ever heard of NASCAR truck-driving loser Ray Ciccarelli, but we all can be quite certain he's a d-bag.
https://twitter.com/SteveHofstetter/status/1271103965682298880?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet
The CNN article talked about Bubba Wallace, stating he is, "the only full-time African American driver in NASCAR's Cup Series",
The way I read it is that he is a full time African American. Are there part time African Americans?
That being said, this Dino Ciccarelli guy is trying to make himself relevant. Not gonna happen.
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The CNN article talked about Bubba Wallace, stating he is, "the only full-time African American driver in NASCAR's Cup Series",
The way I read it is that he is a full time African American. Are there part time African Americans?
That being said, this Dino Ciccarelli guy is trying to make himself relevant. Not gonna happen.
That one crazy white lady who "identifies as black"
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None of us had ever heard of NASCAR truck-driving loser Ray Ciccarelli, but we all can be quite certain he's a d-bag.
https://twitter.com/SteveHofstetter/status/1271103965682298880?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet
So this dude sponsors his own car and has never even lead a lap in a single race. One top ten finish.
As someone said on Twitter yesterday, "at least the Confederacy finished second once."
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Trump on confronting bigotry and prejudice in America:
https://twitter.com/TheDailyShow/status/1271477932662427649?s=19
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The CNN article talked about Bubba Wallace, stating he is, "the only full-time African American driver in NASCAR's Cup Series",
The way I read it is that he is a full time African American. Are there part time African Americans?
That being said, this Dino Ciccarelli guy is trying to make himself relevant. Not gonna happen.
Quite the career change. In fact, Dino is probably more relevant than this Ray guy.
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Quite the career change. In fact, Dino is probably more relevant than this Ray guy.
Hah nice
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Keep up the purely political shit and we'll shut down the whole covid board.
For a thread that started out as "Protests" against the Covid lockdowns, which was political enough, it's degenerated into a purely political thread, with an extremely minuscule number of posts that are related to Covid. How it took this long for Rocky's response is hard to figure out.
IBTL.
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None of us had ever heard of NASCAR truck-driving loser Ray Ciccarelli, but we all can be quite certain he's a d-bag.
https://twitter.com/SteveHofstetter/status/1271103965682298880?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet
The CNN article talked about Bubba Wallace, stating he is, "the only full-time African American driver in NASCAR's Cup Series",
The way I read it is that he is a full time African American. Are there part time African Americans?
That being said, this Dino Ciccarelli guy is trying to make himself relevant. Not gonna happen.
The CNN article talked about Bubba Wallace, stating he is, "the only full-time African American driver in NASCAR's Cup Series",
The way I read it is that he is a full time African American. Are there part time African Americans?
That being said, this Dino Ciccarelli guy is trying to make himself relevant. Not gonna happen.
I used to work with a Ray Ciccarelli. For real! The Ray I knew used to like to talk about grilling food all the time.
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I saw a (I’m sure photoshopped) screenshot of Ciccarelli Tweeting his retirement and NASCAR replying something along the lines of “We had to Google who you are. We’re sure you’re 12 fans will be disappointed. Enjoy your retirement.” Pretty funny.
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Quite the career change. In fact, Dino is probably more relevant than this Ray guy.
Dino was a punk and a goon, so they may share the same brain.
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A special kind of stupid, and a special kind of racist ... and he's an effen doctor!
https://www.kansascity.com/news/nation-world/national/article243473721.html?
An Ohio lawmaker who asked if “the colored population” is hit harder by COVID-19 because they “do not wash their hands as well as other groups” has been fired from his job as an emergency room doctor, news outlets reported.
Ohio Sen. Steve Huffman asked the question Tuesday during a hearing on whether to declare racism a public health crisis, the Dayton Daily News reported.
“We know it’s twice as often, correct?” Huffman asked, referring to the rate of infection among African Americans. “Could it just be that African Americans — the colored population — do not wash their hands as well as other groups?"
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About that Jacksonville Convention date:
https://twitter.com/Yamiche/status/1271403162063208449?s=19
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About that Jacksonville Convention date:
https://twitter.com/Yamiche/status/1271403162063208449?s=19
Honestly how sick are the people who plan these events and allow Trump to continue to do crap like this? How does a single person support this garbage? It’s genuinely messed up.
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How it took this long for Rocky's response is hard to figure out.
IBTL.
I've been busy, not reading much. But thanks for the shout out. OT Is nothing new here, but seriously people. Guess a lock is the only way.