Milwaukee Public Schools

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

So being 15-19 years old, you don't think kids understand the importance of school because of their dead beat parents?  I don't believe that.

You don't have to believe it, but it's true.

If you never teach your kids eat vegetables, do you think they are magically start asking for them when they are teenagers? Probably not.

Good habits start at home. That includes school/diet/exercise/decision making etc.

[mu03eng]

^ Don't they do that in Japan and other countries?

Yes, also typically other countries like Germany pipeline students into two different high schools: professional and technical.  Crudely this would be white collar and blue collar, with the reflection that not every one can or should go to college.  Goes to the proper application of resources.  Similar in concept to how Madison's business school works...you get into Madison but you have to "reapply" to the business school at a year or two.

[wadesworld]

Yes, also typically other countries like Germany pipeline students into two different high schools: professional and technical.  Crudely this would be white collar and blue collar, with the reflection that not every one can or should go to college.  Goes to the proper application of resources.  Similar in concept to how Madison's business school works...you get into Madison but you have to "reapply" to the business school at a year or two.

Not anymore. Started direct admit last year.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Yes, also typically other countries like Germany pipeline students into two different high schools: professional and technical.  Crudely this would be white collar and blue collar, with the reflection that not every one can or should go to college.  Goes to the proper application of resources.  Similar in concept to how Madison's business school works...you get into Madison but you have to "reapply" to the business school at a year or two.

I like this, it would be interesting to make school/apprenticeship combo program, especially for economically challenged students/families.

[Lennys Tap]

I like this, it would be interesting to make school/apprenticeship combo program, especially for economically challenged students/families.

Not sure what admitting that college isn't for everyone makes one (elitist? racist? generic bigot?) but I know it's not good. Funny, it used to be common knowledge.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Not sure what admitting that college isn't for everyone makes one (elitist? racist? generic bigot?) but I know it's not good. Funny, it used to be common knowledge.

In my mind, there is a significant HS population that is failing to graduate because HS doesn't directly lead to them becoming financially stable. If you can get these kids into programs that offer them a chance to make some decent money, attend HS, and get on-the-job training, you could keep those kids in school.

$10/hr x 20 hours/week = approx. $10K/year. If you can show kids that working hard and staying in school can give them some short term financial benefits, you have a better chance of them staying in school.

It might take 6 years to get through HS with this type of program, but I think it would be interesting to try.

Now, the question is: Are there really enough technical labor jobs out there for programs like this to be successful?

Hell, this type of program would be great for all HS kids if there were enough jobs out there to support it.

[GGGG]

There is a definite shortage of skilled labor, especially in Milwaukee.  I know a guy who runs a business there and he has told me, "If I put an ad in the paper for a assembly worker, I have 50 applicants for every opening.  But I can't find good welders for the life of me."

Part of the problem with this is due to the weakening of labor unions, and the apprenticeship programs that went along with them.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

There is a definite shortage of skilled labor, especially in Milwaukee.  I know a guy who runs a business there and he has told me, "If I put an ad in the paper for a assembly worker, I have 50 applicants for every opening.  But I can't find good welders for the life of me."

Part of the problem with this is due to the weakening of labor unions, and the apprenticeship programs that went along with them.

Well, maybe a HS apprenticeship/combo would work then. The one glaring downside is that traditionally, HS kids can be a bit fickle and immature, so if you are running a business and really depending upon their output, it could be a challenge.

The key would be good mentors in the workplace. If you think finding good welders is hard, imagine trying to find one that wants to teach/supervise a couple of HS students for 1/2 the day.

Companies would probably want some sort of subsidy for taking on these students, but now we are getting into a whole different conversation. 

[Hards Alumni]

My personal opinion is that summer 'vacation' needs to be eliminated.  You condense all of the learning that goes on in K-12 and have it take two less years.  At that time the "real life" courses start.  Financial Independence, and various other job skills with a work --> job placement for average students which will take up approx 20 hours of their week.  For students which plan to go to college they can choose to enroll in college prep classes which will take up their 20 hours/week.  

I know this is just a silly thing I dreamed up a few minutes ago, and it will probably create strange caste systems...  but hey, I think its pretty good for zero long term thoughts!

[mu03eng]

Part of the issue is we are continuing to use a system that was invented in the 50s and is no more relevant to the current society than vacuum tubes are.

More basic life classes need to become mandatory, I think its criminal that kids come out of high school not understanding how mortgages/loans work.  Back in the day this was something the parents educated their kids on, but more and more the parents don't even understand it. 

Additionally, everything is catered to get kids placed into college, again there is too much emphasis placed on college.  That's also why you have kids coming out with 6 figure debt and a degree in mid-16th century Flemish Iambic Pentameter.  There is no connection between talent, skill set development and careers in college and high school.  Mostly I attribute this to the "everyone is special policy", when the point of fact is nobody is special, just some people have enough skill, talent, opportunity, and luck to do special things.

Clearly MPS is broken, I'd love to see them take a chance and try and change the paradigm.  Try a whole new way of approaching things, especially once they are out from under their currently labor contract.  Not debating the merits of Act 10, but clearly once operating under it, MPS has the ability to set the rules as they see fit without negotiation.  Go to year round school, develop after school homework centers, develop a committee that determines the latest career paths or jobs with a low supply of workers and alter curriculum to match people with those jobs.  Technology and information have gotten to the point that once you get to high school you should not have to cookie cutter your education.  What's the harm, the current method doesn't work, try something else.

[GGGG]

I don't think summer vacation should be "eliminated," but I think the entire schedule needs to be looked at.  Right now, kids go to school about 36 weeks a year.  Bump that up to 40...shorten summer vacation to six weeks... and spread the rest around with a fall break, a winter break and a spring break.  Having kids getting off school at the end of June, and going back around mid-August gives them enough time to enjoy the summer.

[Hards Alumni]

I don't think summer vacation should be "eliminated," but I think the entire schedule needs to be looked at.  Right now, kids go to school about 36 weeks a year.  Bump that up to 40...shorten summer vacation to six weeks... and spread the rest around with a fall break, a winter break and a spring break.  Having kids getting off school at the end of June, and going back around mid-August gives them enough time to enjoy the summer.

You mean forget half of what they learned during school 

Clearly MPS is broken, I'd love to see them take a chance and try and change the paradigm.  Try a whole new way of approaching things, especially once they are out from under their currently labor contract.  Not debating the merits of Act 10, but clearly once operating under it, MPS has the ability to set the rules as they see fit without negotiation.  Go to year round school, develop after school homework centers, develop a committee that determines the latest career paths or jobs with a low supply of workers and alter curriculum to match people with those jobs.  Technology and information have gotten to the point that once you get to high school you should not have to cookie cutter your education.  What's the harm, the current method doesn't work, try something else.

I believe Germany or some of the Scandinavian countries do something like this.

[tower912]

They also guarantee free education through graduate school, which incentivizes staying in school as well as delaying entering the work force. 

[mu03eng]

Trust me I'm not a European socialist, but I do think some things they do have merit.  Another idea I would steal is compulsory service for two years after high school ala Switzerland.  Give them the option of the military, some sort of internal work program similar to the CCC during FDRs days, and the Peace Corps, etc.  More opportunity to learn skills, teamwork, working for the greater good, and a sense that American's in general have it really good. 

You could structure it such, that if you added 4 weeks to the general school calendar, you could trim a year, maybe two off the current high school graduating timeframe.  You could then still be going to college after your service at say 19 and only be a year "behind" where you would be now.  You also come into college with a more comprehensive understand of how the real world works.

So year around school, compulsory service, and technical/professional pipelines.

K-8th grade all the basic skills anyone will need(reading, writing, math, basic sciences, history)
9th grade(more advanced math, science and social science classes as well as classes on basic real word issues like how loans work, career planning, etc)
10th and 11th grade(pipeline classes for technical or professional path)
12th grade and freshman college(service activites, perhaps with some more advance classes integrated as part of the services if requested)
Sophmore college(new freshman year)

Done and done

[mu03eng]

They also guarantee free education through graduate school, which incentivizes staying in school as well as delaying entering the work force. 

I wouldn't go that far, because again that pushes people into college that maybe shouldn't be in college and devalues the college degree for everyone.  I think you need to educate as to what the value of college is and the cost and then say make the decision but live with the consequences ie debt you can't pay off if you get a degree with no career path.

[Hards Alumni]

I wouldn't go that far, because again that pushes people into college that maybe shouldn't be in college and devalues the college degree for everyone.  I think you need to educate as to what the value of college is and the cost and then say make the decision but live with the consequences ie debt you can't pay off if you get a degree with no career path.

You misunderstand.  It is much more difficult to get into college there.  It is regulated that way.  More of a competition.

[PaintTouches]

I have found this discussion fascinating and very enlightening.

The only question I would have (and no this is not talking about politics) is whether changes would have to be federally mandated or instituted on a state by state basis. With the nature of colleges bringing in students from across the country, I feel like it would have to come from the top down as having each state running its own program could lead to a lot of confusion.

Nevertheless, something does need to happen. I have friends who did Teach for America straight out of college (teaching in both Milwaukee and Chicago public schools) and it was the worst two years of their lives. Good teachers are hard to come by, and nearly impossible to keep in the inner city schools that need them most. 

[mu03eng]

I have found this discussion fascinating and very enlightening.

The only question I would have (and no this is not talking about politics) is whether changes would have to be federally mandated or instituted on a state by state basis. With the nature of colleges bringing in students from across the country, I feel like it would have to come from the top down as having each state running its own program could lead to a lot of confusion.

Nevertheless, something does need to happen. I have friends who did Teach for America straight out of college (teaching in both Milwaukee and Chicago public schools) and it was the worst two years of their lives. Good teachers are hard to come by, and nearly impossible to keep in the inner city schools that need them most. 

I have thought about this some, I know apparently I don't have enough to do.  I think you mandate structure(year round, length of school year, years in school) and milestones(broad concepts/goals students should meet within a timeline, etc).  You then let the states implement within that framework.

[warriorchick]

My incoming-freshman son's roommate at MU is a graduate of the Milwaukee School of Languages, which is an MPS magnet high school and was recently ranked the 7th best public school in the state of Wisconsin bu US News. We haven't met him yet, but based on what we know about him so far, he appears to be a smart, high-achieving kid who will do well at Marquette. 

There were two other MPS schools ranked even higher, including the #1 school in the state, Rufus King (which is 78% non-traditional, BTW).

You have to at least give MPS credit for creating opportunities for kids with high potential that have parents who care about education.  I am far from being a public school supporter/apologist, but the adage of leading a horse to water is never more true than when it comes to education.

[mu03eng]

My incoming-freshman son's roommate at MU is a graduate of the Milwaukee School of Languages, which is an MPS magnet high school and was recently ranked the 7th best public school in the state of Wisconsin bu US News. We haven't met him yet, but based on what we know about him so far, he appears to be a smart, high-achieving kid who will do well at Marquette. 

There were two other MPS schools ranked even higher, including the #1 school in the state, Rufus King (which is 78% non-traditional, BTW).

You have to at least give MPS credit for creating opportunities for kids with high potential that have parents who care about education.  I am far from being a public school supporter/apologist, but the adage of leading a horse to water is never more true than when it comes to education.

Sure, I do think that's great stuff.  I'd love to see a school by school break down of spend vs a success metric.  I'm betting that the top schools like Rufus King not only perform better but they do so at a low cost point(high cost efficiency).

This type of stuff is why I think its insane that superintendents and school administrators tend to come from the teaching ranks.  Running a successful business(like a school) and teaching are two wildly different skill sets.

[Ari Gold]

a lot to digest since I started reading this topic, though something I chat with my friends about a lot since they're teachers... and a lot of similar ideas here are things we kick around. Plus recently milwaukee magazine ranked the 50 best area school districts. It listed all the metrics that went into it. If I remember correctly, most if not all the districts highlighted spend around $11-12k per student, whereas MPS spends $14k per student. 4th highest in the country yet they can't achieve similar results. (Oddly enough Nicolet wasn't in the list, but that may be due to it only being a High School and not part of a district.)

 Its been argued that year round schooling leads to better greats. Uniforms improve academic standing and safety..

But all that is nibbling at the corners.

A way that was kicked around, yet seemingly abandoned was to break MPS up into smaller districts. I'll argue that MPS is a bureaucratic nightmare (Especially the equally failing school board), but I think just about any level of government is. Splitting up MPS into smaller, more manageable districts would allow focus in on a smaller percentage of schools and students.

There was a bill going around that was supported by Willie Hines that would allow the creation of more choice and voucher schools by allowing Choice groups to buy and refurbish closed schools. It would probably save MPS some money and allow parents to get their students out of failing schools and into High Performing Charter schools. I would have supported this because this would have created a level of competition and schools would become more responsive to the needs and interests of parents and students. However I don't think that came up for a vote.

The other augment being made is regarding parental involvement.  Pointing to the importance of parental engagement is a way to downplay failing schools, failing teachers and out of touch bureaucrats. If you're going to blame a lack of parental involvement as a way downplay failing schools, you're speaking to a broader issue surrounding all most urban areas.

[mu_hilltopper]

Seriously, anyone see a legit scenario, 5-10-25+ years from now where MPS isn't a considered a failing district?   Where the dropout rate, reading and math scores are within a few points of state averages?

I just don't see it.  Not under the current societal and fiscal constraints.. nor if MPS's budget was magically doubled.

[mu03eng]

Seriously, anyone see a legit scenario, 5-10-25+ years from now where MPS isn't a considered a failing district?   Where the dropout rate, reading and math scores are within a few points of state averages?

I just don't see it.  Not under the current societal and fiscal constraints.. nor if MPS's budget was magically doubled.

I completely agree, I think they will get a bit of a reset when Act 10 kicks in for them, but 15 years from now unless something unforeseen changes I'm willing to bet they will be the worst performing district in the country.

So again, why not change, especially radically?  What hurts you by doing that?  Hell, you could probably attract high caliber teachers at lower salaries simply because they are trying something new and exciting.

The funny thing is I think everyone in SE Wisconsin agrees and yet no one does anything, EVER.  What is that?

[Aughnanure]

I like this, it would be interesting to make school/apprenticeship combo program, especially for economically challenged students/families.

It's worked very well for their manufacturing sector as well.

[Aughnanure]

a lot to digest since I started reading this topic, though something I chat with my friends about a lot since they're teachers... and a lot of similar ideas here are things we kick around. Plus recently milwaukee magazine ranked the 50 best area school districts. It listed all the metrics that went into it. If I remember correctly, most if not all the districts highlighted spend around $11-12k per student, whereas MPS spends $14k per student. 4th highest in the country yet they can't achieve similar results. (Oddly enough Nicolet wasn't in the list, but that may be due to it only being a High School and not part of a district.)

 Its been argued that year round schooling leads to better greats. Uniforms improve academic standing and safety..

But all that is nibbling at the corners.

A way that was kicked around, yet seemingly abandoned was to break MPS up into smaller districts. I'll argue that MPS is a bureaucratic nightmare (Especially the equally failing school board), but I think just about any level of government is. Splitting up MPS into smaller, more manageable districts would allow focus in on a smaller percentage of schools and students.

There was a bill going around that was supported by Willie Hines that would allow the creation of more choice and voucher schools by allowing Choice groups to buy and refurbish closed schools. It would probably save MPS some money and allow parents to get their students out of failing schools and into High Performing Charter schools. I would have supported this because this would have created a level of competition and schools would become more responsive to the needs and interests of parents and students. However I don't think that came up for a vote.

The other augment being made is regarding parental involvement.  Pointing to the importance of parental engagement is a way to downplay failing schools, failing teachers and out of touch bureaucrats. If you're going to blame a lack of parental involvement as a way downplay failing schools, you're speaking to a broader issue surrounding all most urban areas.

Good idea, but that also can cause bureaucratic nightmares. New Jersey has one of the best public school systems in the country, but facing massive budget shortfalls. Why? Cause instead of having, say, 50 superintendents, they have nearly 500. While they have a more targeted focus and close involvement, the state has to pay nearly 500 people superintendents level salaries. Plus, asst superintendents, and so on.

There are a lot of innovative ways we can improve education in America. Lots of plans, roadmaps, trainings, etc. But ANY solution that does not address the low value our society places on teacher careers will continue to fall short.