Milwaukee Public Schools

[Pakuni]

BS.

I never said I had a firm grip on ALL Americans' grievances. But I've certainly heard enough "the coach, the teacher, my boss, etc. is unfair, doesn't like me," etc., gripes over the years to know it's part of the human condition. That you reflexively confer "victim" status on anyone who claims to be one pretty much says it all.

You said: 
"To those who are actually being discriminated against there are protections available, but from what I see that's a small % of those who think they got a raw deal."

On the other hand, making up arguments I never made doesn't help your case.

[Benny B]

So, at every job you've ever accepted you had full knowledge of the compensation and conditions under which all your peers worked?

Why should I care?  I'm taking a job to work, not to socialize and compare myself or my status with other people.

You knew your employment conditions before you walked through the door?

Of course.  What kind of person takes a job not knowing what it entails?  I'm sure there are 15 year olds who apply to be lifeguards and then complain about there being too much sun, but at some point you have to grow up and take responsibility for the decisions you make.

Well, I suppose you're right that since slavery and indentured servitude no longer exist, everybody theoretically does have the option to leave their job. But in the real world, where job opportunities for most are scarce, leaving a job is not quite so simple if, say, you're a single mom trying to provide for your kids. Or a blue collar dad trying to get your kids through college. Not everybody can just walk away from an income. Nor should they be forced to in order to be treated equally.
Seriously can't believe I have to argue this point.

Nice try.  I know enough single mothers and "blue collar dads" who have walked to hell and back in order to give their kids a better life to know that your argument is utter BS.  I'm not talking about walking away from an income; I'm talking about not wallowing around in self-pity and laziness waiting for the next freebie to come along and throwing a tantrum when it doesn't.

What a nice, comfortable, entitled perspective on life you have.  The rest of us who have been working our rears off since we were old enough to have a paper route know otherwise.

[Lennys Tap]

That darn MLK should have stopped whining and playing the victim card. If he and other blacks living in the South didn't like their unequal treatment, they had the option to move elsewhere. It's a free country, after all. By choosing to live there, they accepted discrimination.

 

We had MLK, an absolute giant, when we needed him. Now we have Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton. Thanks for making my point.

[mu03eng]

Why are you changing the subject? This has nothing to do with what one company pays in comparison to another. It's about Benny's example that the only reason a woman might earns less than her male co-workers is because she "accepts" it that way.

So expecting equal treatment qualifies as "whining and playing the victim card?"
That darn MLK should have stopped whining and playing the victim card. If he and other blacks living in the South didn't like their unequal treatment, they had the option to move elsewhere. It's a free country, after all. By choosing to live there, they accepted discrimination.

Nobody is arguing against working hard, enduring crappy jobs, etc. At least I'm not. I'm talking about a poster's assertion that anyone facing job discrimination - such as his example of woman getting paid less because she's a woman - either "accepts" it or goes and gets another job. She shouldn't have to make that choice.

Discrimination still exists to this day, thankfully much less than before, but still there.  However, if someone determines their is discrimination, we have legal remedies for that.  But just because you are somehow paid less than you think you should isn't discrimination.

Besides, how is it easy to determine you are paid less because of discrimination but its difficult to determine if you are paid in comparison to your peers?

If you can determine you are being discriminated against you can determine if you are paid what you think you should be paid.  If you are not, then either get more from your employer or get a different job.

[Pakuni]

What a nice, comfortable, entitled perspective on life you have.  The rest of us who have been working our rears off since we were old enough to have a paper route know otherwise.

You worked a paper route? So, you totally understand what it takes to overcome poverty and historical prejudices.

Actually, I've often found it's the most privileged among us who preach loudest about all their hard work, how they pulled themselves up by their bootstraps and how they  can't understand why everyone can't be just like them (sloth, naturally).
What's the saying? Born on third base and thinks he hit a triple.

[Pakuni]

Discrimination still exists to this day, thankfully much less than before, but still there.  However, if someone determines their is discrimination, we have legal remedies for that.  But just because you are somehow paid less than you think you should isn't discrimination.

I haven't suggested anything different.
What I'm saying is that the notion that one who experiences job discrimination  "accepts" it by not quitting, or by taking the job in the first place, is woefully wrong. A person shouldn't have to quit his or her job to avoid discrimination, right?

[Benny B]

You worked a paper route? So, you totally understand what it takes to overcome poverty and historical prejudices.

Actually, I've often found it's the most privileged among us who preach loudest about all their hard work, how they pulled themselves up by their bootstraps and how they  can't understand why everyone can't be just like them (sloth, naturally).
What's the saying? Born on third base and thinks he hit a triple.

So a person who doesn't rely on society as a crutch is therefore a spoiled brat? 

[Lennys Tap]

I haven't suggested anything different.
What I'm saying is that the notion that one who experiences job discrimination  "accepts" it by not quitting, or by taking the job in the first place, is woefully wrong. A person shouldn't have to quit his or her job to avoid discrimination, right?

I absolutely agree with this. The key is distinguishing between true discrimination and false victimhood.

[ATL MU Warrior]

- In America, everyone has an opportunity to be whatever they want or earn the salary they want (within reason)
Yeah sure, you see a lot of hedge fund managers rising up from inner city poverty.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Gardner
Yes, some people are born with an easier path, but every American has an easier path than most of the world.b]

The relative ease of someone born in America vs the rest of the world was not how I read that.  If you think Americans born into abject poverty have the same career/earning opportunities as someone born into the middle or upper class then you are living in a fantasy.  In some theoretical idealistic version of the world, yes.  In reality, not a chance.  

- If a woman is paid less to do a job - any job - it's only because she's willing to accept less to do the job
And she knows she is accepting less exactly how?  
By using the same resources we all use to determine if we're being appropriately compensated.  Internet, recruiters, job listings, etc.

All that any of these online salary tools (at least the ones I have used) do is provide a range or an average salary for a particular job title.  I just used one for my title and it gave me a range from $73,500 to $126,200.  How useful!  I make towards the upper end of that range so I guess I'm all good.  I guess the person of the opposite sex sitting in the next cube over from me doing the same exact job must make the same as me since that's what the internet told me.  

- If a teacher is paid less than his/her true "value" to society, it's because he/she is willing to accept less.
How exactly do I calculate my true "value" to society so I know if I am being compensated apppropriately?
Your value is kind of up to you, but if you think you're worth something, then find someone willing to pay that price.  If you can't, then you're probably misguided about the value you bring to the table.

I guess Benny put "Value" in quotes because he knew it is impossible to calculate your "value" to society.  The idea that someone is willing to accept being paid less than some impossible-to-calculate number makes no sense.  Your "value" as a worker is defined by the salary companies are willing to pay people with your particular abilities/skills/knowledge.  As you pointed out above there are a multitude of ways you can assess your "value" as a worker.  But, unless during the interview process you ask your potential coworkers how much money they make (not recommended), you have ZERO idea if the salary you are offered is fair relative to theirs.  

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

Women in the workplace had been a recurring subject over the last year at The Atlantic magazine.  It's long but an interesting read.  Last month's edition contained the latest article titled:

Why Women Still Can’t Have It All
It’s time to stop fooling ourselves, says a woman who left a position of power: the women who have managed to be both mothers and top professionals are superhuman, rich, or self-employed. If we truly believe in equal opportunity for all women, here’s what has to change.
By Anne-Marie Slaughter

LINK:
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/07/why-women-still-cant-have-it-all/309020/

[Benny B]

I guess Benny put "Value" in quotes because he knew it is impossible to calculate your "value" to society.  The idea that someone is willing to accept being paid less than some impossible-to-calculate number makes no sense.  Your "value" as a worker is defined by the salary companies are willing to pay people with your particular abilities/skills/knowledge.  As you pointed out above there are a multitude of ways you can assess your "value" as a worker.  But, unless during the interview process you ask your potential coworkers how much money they make (not recommended), you have ZERO idea if the salary you are offered is fair relative to theirs.  

Partially correct.  Value was put in quotes because I know full well that people define that word differently; however, the ability to calculate value is dependent upon how you define the term.  If the only way for you to determine your value is to compare yourself relative to others, then yes, it's virtually impossible to ascertain your value.  If you determine your value based upon satisfaction and self-actualization, then it's quite easy to define.

At issue here is the fact that most people want to equate value to income; while I believe that's unfortunate, I also understand that a dollar amount is a relatively simple and objective measure, and therefore, that methodology - right or wrong - is most appealing to our society.

[mu03eng]

I haven't suggested anything different.
What I'm saying is that the notion that one who experiences job discrimination  "accepts" it by not quitting, or by taking the job in the first place, is woefully wrong. A person shouldn't have to quit his or her job to avoid discrimination, right?

I don't think anyone was suggesting discrimination should be fought by quitting.  The point is if you think you are undervalued its because of one of three things, you are undervalued and you need to fight for the value, you are actually valued correctly but overvalue yourself, or you are discriminated against.  The first two are much more likely these days.

Lastly my whole thing is I get sick of people throwing their hands in the air and saying its out of my control.  Control the things you can and make stuff happen.  Lots of people do it every day, no reason everyone can't make their life better by trying

[Pakuni]

I don't think anyone was suggesting discrimination should be fought by quitting. 

How is one to take these statements?

"If a woman is paid less to do a job - any job - it's only (ed: emphasis mine) because she's willing to accept less to do the job."

" If there's a victim to be found here, it's only because the person chose (ed: emphasis mine) to be a victim."

The point is if you think you are undervalued its because of one of three things, you are undervalued and you need to fight for the value, you are actually valued correctly but overvalue yourself, or you are discriminated against.  The first two are much more likely these days.

Lastly my whole thing is I get sick of people throwing their hands in the air and saying its out of my control.  Control the things you can and make stuff happen.  Lots of people do it every day, no reason everyone can't make their life better by trying

I don't disagree with any of this. Where I've taken with issue is with those who suggest that those who are treated unfairly should just quit and get another job rather than be "whiners" and "crybabies," and stop "playing the victim card."

[Benny B]

How is one to take these statements?

"If a woman is paid less to do a job - any job - it's only (ed: emphasis mine) because she's willing to accept less to do the job."

" If there's a victim to be found here, it's only because the person chose (ed: emphasis mine) to be a victim."

Pakuni, you're the one who brought up the topic of discrimination.  You can spin my words any way you want, but I never said anything about applicability of those statements to a person who is being subjected to discrimination.  If you took a moment to read the context instead of instinctively (or deliberately) reacting to a couple of keywords that were typed too close together for your own comfort, you'd realize that nobody was talking about discrimination here.  That's an entirely different argument, and one which I'd be willing to bet you'd find it quite challenging to take an adversarial position to mine.