Milwaukee Public Schools

[Aughnanure]

So what's your solution, other than just doubling teacher's salaries? You really think that will somehow produce better results? Not as long as tenure after 3 years is part of the picture. I live in Chicago, where teacher's and administrator's salaries/benefits have risen significantly over the last 3 decades while student performance has not.
You're right, though, about teachers not getting a "full 3 months off". When you add summer, winter and spring vacations plus all federal and/or state holidays it's consierably more than that.

I completely agree on tenure. No 1st grade teacher position should ever be guaranteed like that. What we need is to put in place are rigorous standards to become a teacher - not too much unlike doctors and lawyers. It should be a requirement for all to hold advanced degrees, go through a full training process, get certified, etc. Basically a whole program beyond undergrad that justifies and ensures the high pay-grade I think they deserve. This would remove the people who just get into teaching cause they get the guarantees you complain about, and those that think they can just get up and decide to go teach. It should be treated as more of a commitment than that.

But, yeah.... I guess you're just jealous of their vacation time. As someone dating a teacher, I'm not jealous of their jobs in any way.

[Aughnanure]

Good read for people who don't like the union set-up, and for people who don't hate it.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/03/02/AR2011030203236.html

The one thing I know for sure, however, is this: The future of the country depends on the public-sector workers known as teachers. That's because unless we dramatically improve our educational performance, America's standard of living will be at risk.

"The second thing I know for sure is that we'll never attract the kind of talented young people we need to the teaching profession unless it pays far more than it does today. With starting teacher salaries averaging $39,000 nationally, and rising to an average maximum of $67,000, it's no surprise that we draw teachers from the bottom two-thirds of the college class; for schools in poor neighborhoods, teachers come largely from the bottom third. We're the only leading nation that thinks it can stay a leading nation with a "strategy" of recruiting mediocre students and praying they'll prove excellent teachers.

And I know one more thing - which is as inconvenient for me to acknowledge as it should be for others who've criticized archaic teacher union practices in the United States. The highest-performing school systems in the world - in places such as Finland, Singapore and South Korea - all have strong teachers unions. Anyone serious about improving American schooling has to reckon with this paradox: Unions here are often obstacles to needed reform, even as the world's best systems work hand in glove with their unions to continually improve their performance.

Why this difference?

The main reason, according to Linda Darling-Hammond of Stanford, who has studied these questions, is that the entire public policy culture (and thus resource allocation) in these high-performing nations is built around attracting, rigorously training and retaining top talent for teaching. "The dynamic in the top-performing nations is about supporting good teachers, not about getting bad teachers out," she says, because there just aren't many bad teachers.

"The union role is problematic at this point," in the United States, Darling-Hammond adds, "but it's a creature of what we've constructed" by not being serious about luring top talent into teaching and preparing that talent to succeed."

[Lennys Tap]

I completely agree on tenure. No 1st grade teacher position should ever be guaranteed like that. What we need is to put in place standards to become a teacher - not too much unlike doctors and lawyers. It should be a requirement for all to hold advanced degrees, go through a full training process, get certified, etc. Basically a whole program beyond undergrad that justifies and ensures the high pay-grade I think they deserve. This would remove the people who just get into teaching cause they get the guarantees you complain about, and those that think they can just get up and decide to go teach. It should be treated as more of a commitment than that.

But, yeah.... I guess you're just jealous of their vacation time. As someone dating a teacher, I'm not jealous of their jobs in any way.

Augh, you make some good points. I don't know if the answer is more training, getting teachers with more of a "knack" for teaching or maybe a little bit of both. You mention Washinton, D.C. Isn't there a successful "merit pay" program going on in some of the schools there? I could definitely get behind that.

On the vacation stuff, I'm not jealous but think it's only fair to point out that a 60,000 stipend for 3/4 of a year =an 80,000 one for a full year. Just sayin'.

[Pakuni]

no, wrong career choice, unfortunately there are not too many other choices in my field, basically there is only 1 other employer in the state and I'd be worse off there in other catagories like salary and job security

I should have followed my mother's advice 30 years ago and gone to work at the post office

There's always work at the post office.

[tower912]

Augh, you make some good points. I don't know if the answer is more training, getting teachers with more of a "knack" for teaching or maybe a little bit of both. You mention Washinton, D.C. Isn't there a successful "merit pay" program going on in some of the schools there? I could definitely get behind that.

On the vacation stuff, I'm not jealous but think it's only fair to point out that a 60,000 stipend for 3/4 of a year =an 80,000 one for a full year. Just sayin'.

So, Lenny, if teachers have it so good, why aren't you one?

[Aughnanure]

Augh, you make some good points. I don't know if the answer is more training, getting teachers with more of a "knack" for teaching or maybe a little bit of both. You mention Washinton, D.C. Isn't there a successful "merit pay" program going on in some of the schools there? I could definitely get behind that.

On the vacation stuff, I'm not jealous but think it's only fair to point out that a 60,000 stipend for 3/4 of a year =an 80,000 one for a full year. Just sayin'.

Its true, but we don't have to deal with screaming crazy kids and even crazier parents - they need the break more than I do. But generally, I think America has a problem with the lack of vacation days. So its not that I don't see that they do get paid more vs their work time -but that we all should get more time-off. You go to Europe and you are STARTING at 25 days.

And yes, they do have the merit pay in DC. My girlfriend missed it by ONE point. That hurts, and she gets no support (its ridiculous how much of her own money she forks over to help her kids. Im at an office, I print stuff out in color for her...cause she can't). The only other biggest problem is the parents and family life. Some of these kids grow up and don't think education is that serious cause there are no role models. They try to encourage it, each teacher's class is named corresponding to the university they went to - but at the end of the day, she can't even get the parents to show up (1-2 at most) to parent-teacher conferences. And when she did get a few, she had to offer food.

[tower912]

Augh, I am not going to quote you, but in reference to European teachers, a top teacher in Europe earns roughly what a GP MD makes.   Of course, MD's have unions in Europe, too  (who doesn't?)    And the unions there, as your article says, have made driving up standards part of their raison d'etre.     And they don't have to negotiate health care and pensions, as those are taken care of by the state.   But that is a whole different kettle of fish.  

[Aughnanure]

Augh, I am not going to quote you, but in reference to European teachers, a top teacher in Europe earns roughly what a GP MD makes.   Of course, MD's have unions in Europe, too  (who doesn't?)    And the unions there, as your article says, have made driving up standards part of their raison d'etre.     And they don't have to negotiate health care and pensions, as those are taken care of by the state.   But that is a whole different kettle of fish.  

Sorry, what's a GP MD? Google told me 'Great Planes Model Dist' But you are correct, there are aspects of their socialist programs that remove a lot of the negotiation problems unions and states face here. Its not a 1-to-1 comparison. I think the biggest part about the more Euro model that I like is that the nation takes the teacher career, training, etc really fucking seriously - and thus making the higher pay scale worth it.

[Lennys Tap]

So, Lenny, if teachers have it so good, why aren't you one?

The question isn't why any one individual isn't one. Lots of factors go into those choices. The fact remains that we have many more qualified teachers than teaching positions. So plenty of people think it's a pretty good gig. That, along with the abysmal scores of today's students tells me that doubling salaries/increasing benefits is unnecessary and unmerited. When and if teachers are trained and produce results like Augh envisions I'll be all for higher salaries. I like pay for performance, not negotiated, one size fits all models.

[tower912]

General Practitioner Doctor.   Well played sidestep, Lenny. 

[Aughnanure]

The question isn't why any one individual isn't one. Lots of factors go into those choices. The fact remains that we have many more qualified teachers than teaching positions. So plenty of people think it's a pretty good gig. That, along with the abysmal scores of today's students tells me that doubling salaries/increasing benefits is unnecessary and unmerited. When and if teachers are trained and produce results like Augh envisions I'll be all for higher salaries. I like pay for performance, not negotiated, one size fits all models.

Which means our teaching standards are woefully low. Becoming a teachers should be hard to do and a challenge, not something a random Comm grad (like me) can just decide to go and do one day *cough* Teach for America *cough*

[mu_hilltopper]

But it's not about paying current teachers more, it's about attracting future teachers.

Here's something I don't know, but would settle this line of debate:  Do colleges with education programs have open seats in their classrooms? 

If, as you suggest, the teaching profession isn't compensated high enough, isn't respected well enough .. then the pipeline of teachers-in-training should be running low, right?

Unfortunately, I can't google the answer to that, but I'd guess the ed programs around the country are as full as they usually are.  Your thesis is that compensation is the driver for future career paths.  That's obviously faulty, as, for example, education has NEVER been highly compensated, yet we have about 7 million teachers in the US.  You think a 5-10% one-time compensation cut in the middle of the largest recession in 80 years is going to stop teens from enrolling?  While Act 10 has created a compensation cut for educators in Wisconsin, teaching salaries are still a solidly middle class option for 18 year olds picking a major.

On top of that, teaching is a calling for many -- some kids will value compensation and go into banking, law* .. plenty of others would NEVER consider a job like that, and will continue to see teaching as a desirable and viable career path, salaries and controversy notwithstanding.  (*And those who go into law will discover the world is lousy with lawyers and they'll be lucky to get a job, let alone a high paying one.)

Purly anecdotally, my boss is down in Iowa dropping his freshman daughter off right now .. major: education.  I asked: Gosh, so she's not dissuaded by what happened to the teachers in 2011 in Wisconsin?  Answer: Nope.  She's always wanted to be a teacher.

.. I don't think people assume so openly, as we do with teachers, that somewhere around 10-25% of doctors are "poor."

[/quote]


I think that's 100% wrong.  There are plenty of examples of bad doctors for the populace to assume a chunk of them are poor.  Indeed, bad doctors get FAR more publicity, because when they are bad, they end up being sued, with media attention.   The populace knows bad/failed doctors, lawyers, NBA players, bankers, stockbrokers, ad infinitum.

[Aughnanure]

Here's something I don't know, but would settle this line of debate:  Do colleges with education programs have open seats in their classrooms?  

If, as you suggest, the teaching profession isn't compensated high enough, isn't respected well enough .. then the pipeline of teachers-in-training should be running low, right?

Unfortunately, I can't google the answer to that, but I'd guess the ed programs around the country are as full as they usually are.  Your thesis is that compensation is the driver for future career paths.  That's obviously faulty, as, for example, education has NEVER been highly compensated, yet we have about 7 million teachers in the US.  You think a 5-10% one-time compensation cut in the middle of the largest recession in 80 years is going to stop teens from enrolling?  While Act 10 has created a compensation cut for educators in Wisconsin, teaching salaries are still a solidly middle class option for 18 year olds picking a major.

No I think that proves that our teacher-standards are too low - making it easier for so many kids to enroll in the programs and to justify low salaries.

I'm not really addressing Act 10, I'm not in Wisconsin and am not familiar with it. But I disagree with your argument that because there's 7 million teachers, they are being compensated adequately. It means there are 7 million positions. Just because you are attracting a great number of students, doesn't mean you are attracting the candidates you want to.

I think we should strive for teaching to be treated more than just a "solidly middle class option."

[Aughnanure]

I think that's 100% wrong.  There are plenty of examples of bad doctors for the populace to assume a chunk of them are poor.  Indeed, bad doctors get FAR more publicity, because when they are bad, they end up being sued, with media attention.   The populace knows bad/failed doctors, lawyers, NBA players, bankers, stockbrokers, ad infinitum.

Disagree with this as well. Just because there are some highly publicized stories of doctor malpractice or banker fraud doesn't mean that society "assumes" that 15-25% of them are really that bad. Especially doctors. The programs, classes and standards we all know they have to pass gives us a sense of greater trust in their skill and expertise. Parents openly think that teacher's don't know what they're talking about at a level unlike other professions - and are undermined by that lack of respect.

I think people's problems with bankers and stockbrokers, etc aren't that they they are 'poor' at their job. Quite the opposite, that they are too good at it and they don't trust their motivations and goals.

[Lennys Tap]

General Practitioner Doctor.   Well played sidestep, Lenny. 

I guess I don't understand, Tower. There are a lot of careers out there that I think people are fairly compensated for that didn't end up being my choice. Teachers, doctors, real estate salespeople, botanists, deep sea fishermen, etc. I'm not advocating cutting salaries or benfits for teachers, but given what the private sector is going through and given our public schooler's performance I just don't see teachers as underpaid.

[Pakuni]

So what's your solution, other than just doubling teacher's salaries? You really think that will somehow produce better results? Not as long as tenure after 3 years is part of the picture. I live in Chicago, where teacher's and administrator's salaries/benefits have risen significantly over the last 3 decades while student performance has not.
You're right, though, about teachers not getting a "full 3 months off". When you add summer, winter and spring vacations plus all federal and/or state holidays it's considerably more than that.

Don't forget Sundays. Teachers also don't work Sundays, the lazy slobs.

[tower912]

Of course, to really throw the (BTW, really thoughtful and insightful) discussion into chaos, bring up charter schools and catholic schools.   Why aren't charter schools significantly outperforming the public schools in their area if the obstacles are truly the teachers' unions?    After all, many are for profit and most profess to be cutting edge and have higher parental participation than traditional public schools?  How do Catholic schools continually get such superior results with teachers who make less than their public school counterparts?    That last one is easy, parents who make it clear to their children that education matters and that if they don't take it seriously, they will get sent to public schools.     At least, that is the threat I used on my daughter (4.3 GPA, 33 ACT)

[Lennys Tap]

Of course, to really throw the (BTW, really thoughtful and insightful) discussion into chaos, bring up charter schools and catholic schools.   Why aren't charter schools significantly outperforming the public schools in their area if the obstacles are truly the teachers' unions?    After all, many are for profit and most profess to be cutting edge and have higher parental participation than traditional public schools?  How do Catholic schools continually get such superior results with teachers who make less than their public school counterparts?    That last one is easy, parents who make it clear to their children that education matters and that if they don't take it seriously, they will get sent to public schools.     At least, that is the threat I used on my daughter (4.3 GPA, 33 ACT)

Good points/questions. Congrats on your daughter - awesome numbers!

[Spotcheck Billy]

I think we should strive for teaching to be treated more than just a "solidly middle class option."

wtf is wrong with being "solidly middle class"?

many would be quite content at that level, and many teachers exceed that level. one of my friends teachers high school history in MPS and when I looked her up on that website her salary is $77K not including benefits, that's UMC territory AKAIK

[Pakuni]

The question isn't why any one individual isn't one. Lots of factors go into those choices. The fact remains that we have many more qualified teachers than teaching positions. So plenty of people think it's a pretty good gig. That, along with the abysmal scores of today's students tells me that doubling salaries/increasing benefits is unnecessary and unmerited. When and if teachers are trained and produce results like Augh envisions I'll be all for higher salaries. I like pay for performance, not negotiated, one size fits all models.

Where are teachers salaries being doubled (factoring for inflation)?
According to this, teacher salaries, when adjusted, have gone up 3 percent over the last 20 years.
http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=28

Also, since you've cited the test score thing, could you point me in the direction of some actual historical data on that?
I did find some for the SAT. It shows that the cumulative score in 1972 was 1039. In 1982 it was 997. In 1992 it was 1001. In 2002 it was 1030. Not exactly a massive drop, nor surprising given that there were far fewer borderline kids taking college entrance exams 50 years ago than there are today.
As for the ACT, in 1997 (oldest year I've been able to find so far), the national average for composite score was 21.0. Last year, it was 21.1. Again, where's the evidence of "abysmal" test scores.

Lastly, you complain about the amount of time teachers spend working (a mere 180 days a year, according to you ... less than half a year), and yet hold them solely responsible for child's educational progress. Heck, even on those rare days when kids are in school, teachers spend only about six hours a day with their students (and that's not even factoring in things like recess, lunch, arts, gym, etc.).
So, realistically, if kids are spending only about 12 percent of their lives in a classroom, why do teachers bear the entire burden here? Might there be, oh, I dunno, some factors outside the classroom to consider? Perhaps some social and cultural issues? Like, say, the steep rise in single-parent households? Or the steep rise of families in which both parents work? Or the increase in children of immigrants who are required to take some of these achievement tests, their knowledge and understanding of English notwithstanding?

Nah, forget it. That's far too nuanced. Let's just get mad at teachers.

[Aughnanure]

wtf is wrong with being "solidly middle class"?

many would be quite content at that level, and many teachers exceed that level. one of my friends teachers high school history in MPS and when I looked her up on that website her salary is $77K not including benefits, that's UMC territory AKAIK

$77,000 is middle class.

[Pakuni]

I think that's 100% wrong.  There are plenty of examples of bad doctors for the populace to assume a chunk of them are poor.  Indeed, bad doctors get FAR more publicity, because when they are bad, they end up being sued, with media attention.   The populace knows bad/failed doctors, lawyers, NBA players, bankers, stockbrokers, ad infinitum.

Speaking of 100 percent wrong .... malpractice lawsuits very rarely wind up in the media, and when they do it's usually because there's something very unusual about them (i.e. doctor removed the wrong limb, doctor molested a patient, etc.) That's the equivalent of the teacher who sleeps with his/her student. As someone who once worked in the media covering a courthouse in a metro market, I'd estimate that for every one malpractice case you read about, at least 50, and probably more, receive zero coverage.

By the way, name the last doctor in your community to face a malpractice judgement or settle a malpractice suit. Can't do it, right? Because nobody pays attention to those suits and the "populace" most certainly is not aware of them.

[Aughnanure]

Speaking of 100 percent wrong .... malpractice lawsuits very rarely wind up in the media, and when they do it's usually because there's something very unusual about them (i.e. doctor removed the wrong limb, doctor molested a patient, etc.). As someone who once worked in the media covering a courthouse in a metro market, I can assure for every one malpractice case you read about, at least 50, and probably more, receive zero coverage.

By the way, name the last doctor in your community to face a malpractice judgement or settle a malpractice suit. Can't do it, right? Because nobody pays attention to those suits and the "populace" most certainly is not aware of them.

Correct, but everyone knows their kid's 5th grade math teacher doesn't know what she's talking about.

[Lennys Tap]

Don't forget Sundays. Teachers also don't work Sundays, the lazy slobs.

Snarky and childish.

[Pakuni]

Snarky and childish.

If only I had a good teacher who'd corrected such behavior early in life.