Woj Colored Glasses

[Herman Cain]

For next season? Assuming no major additions or defections: Top 4 in conference. Team that flirts with the top 25 all season. Somewhere between a 4-8 seed in the NCAAs. Year after that? Even better. Legitimate Final Four contender (but there's a lot of time between now and then).

Look at the Big East standings to the left. Two elite teams at the top and then 4 teams at 9-7. We're sitting just below them at 7-9. It seems like we're just a cut below those 4 this season. Here's what is going to happen to those teams in the offseason:

Butler: Graduate All Big East Kelan Martin and starting center Tyler Wideman. Brings in one recruit rated #378 by 247 Composite. Brings in a midseason transfer from Duke (only appeared in 2 games) who was a top 75 type player. Trend?: Down

Creighton: Graduates All Big East First team Markus Foster, starting big Toby Hegner, and backup big Manny Suarez. May also lose all Big East Khyri Thomas to draft (currently projects as a late first rounder). Brings in a solid recruiting class with three 4 star players (but none in the top 100). Also brings in a transfer who averaged 5 points for New Mexico last season. Krampelj also returns from injury but who knows how he'll be after his second ACL tear. Trend?: Neutral (if Thomas stays) Down (if Thomas goes)

Providence: Graduates All Big East players Kyron Cartwright and Rodney Bullock as well as starting wing Jalen Lindsey. Bring in a great recruiting class with two top 50 players (#42, #44) and two 3 stars. May get Emmitt Holt back from injury. Trend?: Down

Seton Hall: Graduates All Big East Player Angel Delgado and starters Khadeen Carrington, Desi Rodriguez, and Ish Sanogo. Brings in two 3 stars rated in the 200s. Also brings in a solid transfer from Syracuse and a high scoring transfer from Sacred Heart. Trend? Down

Compare that to:

Marquette: Graduates Andrew Rowsey, a big loss for sure (though a net positive just on defense). Brings in a solid transfer from Nebraska, a top 50 freshman, a 21 year old freshman who was a top 75 player, and brings back a 3 star project from redshirt. Trend?: Up.

A lot still needs to happen between this season and next season, but as of now, things are looking very good for us.

The two Seton Hall transfers have some proven playing ability. Obviously they are replacing big time players. So time will tell.
http://www.syracuse.com/orangebasketball/index.ssf/2017/09/seton_hall_confirms_transfer_of_former_syracuse_player_taurean_thompson.html

https://www.app.com/story/sports/college/2017/06/02/seton-hall-adds-transfer-mcknight-3-things-know-guard/367086001/

[Spaniel with a Short Tail]

I don't care who agrees with me, we all have our opinions on the matter. I'm just tired of the losing, and those of you that have the patience for that kind of thing...kudos to you. I just don't. Never will have it..been too competitive my whole life to ever be comfortable with losing.

Here's where we agree - I'm tired of losing also. I also don't think that success is measured by reaching the tourney; need success in the tourney. I just think when you look at an analysis that TAMU just provided that the future looks bright. Nothing is guaranteed (transfers, injuries, etc.) but the future looks bright to me for sustained success. So I take a deep breath after games like today and get ready to cheer the boys on against GT.

I also NEVER want to see MU have a headline like Arizona received today. Winning that way isn't worth it. Assuming that headline was about Marquette, would you be OK with that as the price for a winning program?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

And:
Besides that tier

Xavier loses Blueitt, Macura, Kanter, O’Mara.  Big down

St. John’s loses LoVett, Ahmed and maybe Ponds.  They do get South Carolina big man Keita.

Exactly.

Hell, Villanova could have up to three players decide to go pro (I don't think they will but maybe 2). And DePaul loses its starting PF and C. The only players on their team taller than 6"6 are going to be a 3 star true freshman and backups Paul Reed and Jaylen Butz.

The only two teams who should be trending up next season are Marquette  and Georgetown. There should be a big power vacuum underneath Villanova next season and Marquette is in a good position to take advantage. I think Creighton, Marquette, and Xavier are going to be battling for the spot after Nova next season.

[tower912]

I don't care who agrees with me, we all have our opinions on the matter. I'm just tired of the losing, and those of you that have the patience for that kind of thing...kudos to you. I just don't. Never will have it..been too competitive my whole life to ever be comfortable with losing.

Coached enough to see it from all sides, seen enough actual death and tragedy to lose my mind anymore.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I don't care who agrees with me, we all have our opinions on the matter. I'm just tired of the losing, and those of you that have the patience for that kind of thing...kudos to you. I just don't. Never will have it..been too competitive my whole life to ever be comfortable with losing.

We're all tired of losing Brother Guru. I don't think many of us have the patience for this thing. Mrs. TAMU wasn't home when I watched the game so there was a lot of yelling. Had to put the dog outside with about 10 minutes left because I realized he was pretty freaked out. I share your frustration. I just choose to look at where we are going rather than where we are. Only thing that has kept me sane during this rebuild.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Hey, at least we ain't Pitt..,

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/pitt-played-one-worst-halves-basketball-ever-230616959.html

[muguru]

Here's where we agree - I'm tired of losing also. I also don't think that success is measured by reaching the tourney; need success in the tourney. I just think when you look at an analysis that TAMU just provided that the future looks bright. Nothing is guaranteed (transfers, injuries, etc.) but the future looks bright to me for sustained success. So I take a deep breath after games like today and get ready to cheer the boys on against GT.

I also NEVER want to see MU have a headline like Arizona received today. Winning that way isn't worth it. Assuming that headline was about Marquette, would you be OK with that as the price for a winning program?

Never ever would I want that..But there are plenty of winning programs that don't have to cheat to win, Marquette has proven they can be one of those, I just want to get back to those days. The sooner the better.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Hey, at least we ain't Pitt..,

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/pitt-played-one-worst-halves-basketball-ever-230616959.html

7 points in a half? Geez. The worst part about that article was this though:

"I’ll have you know, that was only the third-worst half of basketball in Pitt history.

Scored 2 points vs. Penn State on 1906 and NONE at Penn State in 1950"

[skianth16]

I also NEVER want to see MU have a headline like Arizona received today. Winning that way isn't worth it. Assuming that headline was about Marquette, would you be OK with that as the price for a winning program?

I'm happy we're not in the news for that kind of thing also, but at the same time, would you stop rooting for the team if we were? Would you stop watching or going to games? I know I wouldn't. And I bet most Arizona fans wont' either. It's embarrassing, but it's not Penn Sate or Michigan State level bad. It's cheating, sure, but it's not ugly or abusive. I'd be embarrassed to wear Sparty gear in public after this year. Arizona, not so much.

[79Warrior]

Wojo will not be fired. The bromance with Lovell is stronger than ever. The BOT loves that they have a Duke guy. Scholl is smart enough to know that the real AD at Marquette is and always has been the head basketball coach. So no constituency for change.

The only way Wojo goes, is if there is a Power 5 football school that has a basketball opening and a deep pocketed donor who will provide the tools of the trade. Absent that Wojo is our coach for the long term.

Looking forward to winning the next two games and then a spirited run in the BET. Season is far from over.

I don’t know where u get ur info from, but the BOT is not in the bag. They like Wojo but they know the natives are restless. You have to be completely ignorant not to recognize that the fan base is disappointed. Jeez the students stayed home in droves against SJU. Wojo does not have a lock on this gig at all. He is back next season but......

[1SE]

Wojo didn't deserve a 6 year guarantee when he started. He earned it by meeting expectations each season.  Year 1, put a team on the court. Year 2, get better. Year 3, make the tourney. Year 4, weather the departures of a bunch of upperclassmen and put together a young and competitive team. You may not like it, but that's what the reasonable expectations were first years 1-4. Wojo has yet to exceed any of them (so your Peter Gibbons reference may end being true) but he has yet to miss any of them.

The game changes in year 5 and year 6. It's not enough to just make the tournament he will be expected to make the tournament comfortably. If he fails next season, it will be the first time he didn't make expectations in a season. I don't think he gets fired the first time he fails. I think he will get one more chance and if he fails again he will be gone.

There actually are other explanations. Wojo inherited a team that was going to have its best players graduate between year 3 and year 4. Unless Wojo decided to run those players off, there was always going to be off between years 3 and year 4. We were old last season, we're young this season, and we'll be old again next season. Part of the natural ebb and flow of college basketball.

Losing out would probably mean no NIT. I don't think we're going to lose out but we could. It would be interesting if an "ideal candidate" became available after year 5. If year 5 is a fail (but not a disaster), I think Wojo still gets one more year. But if some ideal candidate was available and made it known that he would take the job, I wonder if the BOT would act on it.

I appreciate the thoughtful response, but would raise one counter point. Wojo has burned/redshirted all sorts of scholarships in each of his years. We COULD have had the pieces, even without running guys off (although he has done a good job of that too, usually mid-season so as to leave us short handed). You can give 13 kids a full ride, we’ve had 7-9 *real* players for most of Wojo’s tenure. We could have 4 or five experienced juniors on this team, but instead we have one Matt Heldt. With the resources available to Wojo no excuse not to field a *full* team every year - that he hasn’t is a huge failure for him in team-building/recruiting. And everyone talks about next year having a complete team. But we don’t. We’ll have a great 2 and 3, a huge log-jam at 4, a serviceable two-headed 5, but, as of now, NO PG. MAYBE we’ll grab some fantastic transfer but Wojo hasn’t had a great record plugging holes in the off-season (sure Rowdy is a baller, hit we already had an undersized 2, we needed s PG then). Grimes would gave been the piece, but what’s the Plan B?

[WhiteTrash]

Wojo will not be fired. The bromance with Lovell is stronger than ever. The BOT loves that they have a Duke guy. Scholl is smart enough to know that the real AD at Marquette is and always has been the head basketball coach. So no constituency for change.

The only way Wojo goes, is if there is a Power 5 football school that has a basketball opening and a deep pocketed donor who will provide the tools of the trade. Absent that Wojo is our coach for the long term.

Looking forward to winning the next two games and then a spirited run in the BET. Season is far from over.

I don’t know where u get ur info from, but the BOT is not in the bag. They like Wojo but they know the natives are restless. You have to be completely ignorant not to recognize that the fan base is disappointed. Jeez the students stayed home in droves against SJU. Wojo does not have a lock on this gig at all. He is back next season but......

I would not read too much into anything Lovell or MU has to say, official or otherwise, about Wojo. If they are smart people, and I hope they are, the only information that will ever come out will be is that they love Wojo and that he is exceeding all expectations. What could be be gained by saying anything less? They would under mind any hope of him being successful. There should be only a handful of people that really know where Wojo stands. If someone on this board say they are actually hearing that Wojo's seat is getting warm, either that person is lying or MU is being run by idiots.

So does MU love Wojo so much that they would never fire him? Is his job safe regardless of his win/loss record? Logic tells me no. A friend who knows a couple of significant boosters tells me no. But that is far from official inside information.

So, officially MU loves Wojo....... where is the annual automatically renewing contract with the massive buyout to keep him from leaving?

[brewcity77]

This is the part that irritates me to no end, people giving Wojo a pass until year 5...I will ask again, why SHOULD it take that long?? How long did it take Cuonzo Martin to take Missouri(one of the worst high major programs for years) back to the NCAA's(and playing without an all american all year I might add), How long did it take Buzz to rebuild Va Tech(he will now be getting his 2nd NCAA berth in 4 years, plus one NIT bid), Chris Holtmann at OSU, in ONE year he has taken a moribound program, and had them competing for the top of the B10 and in the NCAA tournament. Danny Hurley at ASU, how long has it taken him?? Keatts at NC State, will likely make the NCAA's this year(or at least very close to it). I just don't get why Wojo gets such a pass for his first 4 years, and others have demonstrated that they can turn programs around in 1 year. It baffles me.

Here's the thing, I don't care about a coach taking a team of someone else's players to a tourney or two. Any idiot can succeed if handed a great nucleus. I care about sustained success and what they do with their own players.

Cuonzo sucks. He built a one year winner at Cal and left a scrapyard fire behind. Holtmann is solid (proved it at Butler) but Bobby Hurley is still running with Sendek's guys at ASU and the team is taking a crap after a hot start. Let's see what he does when it's his own players. Keatts has done nothing with his own players. Buzz is a good coach but ran out of here with the program in tatters and left it far worse than he found it.

That's why next year matters. Not because I have blind faith in Wojo, but because I don't know if he can build a team and win with it. If next year's team is flirting with the top-25 all year, top-3 in the league, and in the 4-7 seed range with legit second weekend aspirations, then maybe we have something. If not, blow it up and start over.

Most of the guys you listed we have no idea if will work out long term. You would've fired Coach K, Jay Wright, and Al McGuire before they won anything. Maybe Wojo will never get there, but we'll never know if he doesn't get to coach the team he's been building for 4 years.

[GoldenWarrior11]

FWIW, Homer on Twitter has now started following @FireWojo.  It has a whopping nine followers.

Which one of you die-hard Scoopers created a new twitter account recently?

[muguru]

Here's the thing, I don't care about a coach taking a team of someone else's players to a tourney or two. Any idiot can succeed if handed a great nucleus. I care about sustained success and what they do with their own players.

Cuonzo sucks. He built a one year winner at Cal and left a scrapyard fire behind. Holtmann is solid (proved it at Butler) but Bobby Hurley is still running with Sendek's guys at ASU and the team is taking a crap after a hot start. Let's see what he does when it's his own players. Keatts has done nothing with his own players. Buzz is a good coach but ran out of here with the program in tatters and left it far worse than he found it.

That's why next year matters. Not because I have blind faith in Wojo, but because I don't know if he can build a team and win with it. If next year's team is flirting with the top-25 all year, top-3 in the league, and in the 4-7 seed range with legit second weekend aspirations, then maybe we have something. If not, blow it up and start over.

Most of the guys you listed we have no idea if will work out long term. You would've fired Coach K, Jay Wright, and Al McGuire before they won anything. Maybe Wojo will never get there, but we'll never know if he doesn't get to coach the team he's been building for 4 years.

You are right, sustained success, is the ultimate determiner, but my point is, what do we have to this point, that shows Wojo is capable of that?? I mean in his tenure, he has never even won 3 straight BE games. The signature moment to this point is a win against #1 Villanova...the rest of the 4 years have basically been "meh" at best. His teams are inconsistent at best. Almost ever power 5 team at some point, hits a stretch where they get hot and real off a few or several impressive wins in a row, Wojo's have never done that. Maybe next year is the turn the corner year, and the year after that is the creme de la creme, but it sure would be nice to have some semblance of consistency after 4 years. Sure, next year the BE will lose a lot, and it's MU's time to "shine", but why does it have to be when the rest of the conference is down?? Why can't they be top half competitive when the conference is as strong as it is??

[brewcity77]

Next year is the year that proves it. The pieces seem to be in place. If he gets us into that upper echelon, then that's the sign we're looking for. Wojo can't control other rosters, but I feel he should get the chance to show what he can do with his roster when it's old.

Personally, I feel next year is year one of Wojo's "prove it" years. We should be top-3 in the league and in the 4-7 seed range next year. We should be better the year after. And we should be able to sustain success when Sam and Markus graduate. If he does that, we likely have that long term answer. If not, we also have an answer.

I'm not saying he definitely gets three years. I'm saying 2018-19 gives him the chance to earn 2019-20, 2019-20 gives him the chance to earn 2020-21, and 2020-21 gives him the chance to earn long term security.

There will almost certainly be an extension in there if it's going well, but I think firing after any of the next three seasons would be totally justified if we come up short.

[Mr. Sand-Knit]

Why wait 2-3-4-5 years??!!  Any coach should be fired after their first year if they have not definitively demonstrated that they can achieve sustained success!!!!!

[DCHoopster]

Buzz left the cupboard bare, nothing.  Brought in Carlino, good move.  Then brought in Ellenson, good or bad move, depends.  Looking now, maybe Henry should have
stayed in school another year.  Then again he is making 1.5M or more sitting on the bench for 2 years.  Might be out of the league after next year, or get a ridiculous
contract like John Leuer or Miles Plumlee, Delly, Henson, Snell all getting funny money for below average players like Henry.  He can go play in Europe in 2 years.  Should
Wojo have taken Henry?  That is the question?  So 2 years were lost, 1 good year, this year after losing JJJ, Katin, Luke, Wilson, tough to lose all that leadership, to now
1 senior.  Expected in my book.  Even next year there is only 1 senior.  He is building classes, needs 2 top 100 kids in 2019 should be his goal.

[NickelDimer]

Why wait 2-3-4-5 years??!!  Any coach should be fired after their first year if they have not definitively demonstrated that they can achieve sustained success!!!!!

Stay away from fire, strawman. Seriously keep believing that coaching isn’t a major problem. Just remember in a must win game against the league’s worst team we got worked.

[Galway Eagle]

Stay away from fire, strawman. Seriously keep believing that coaching isn’t a major problem. Just remember in a must win game against the league’s worst team we got worked.

St John's is the league's worst team and when it was a must win game we won. Now you could say "Just remember in a game we should've won at the league's worst team we got worked" or "just remember in a must win game against the league's second worst team we got worked" but what you said is not correct at this point just fyi

[WhiteTrash]

Why wait 2-3-4-5 years??!!  Any coach should be fired after their first year if they have not definitively demonstrated that they can achieve sustained success!!!!!

Haha! Everyone knows you have to wait till the new coach has four full classes ................ after eight years to fairly judge his performance. You know eight years to rebuild, clean out the old guys, work through transfers, grow and learn as a coach and get a system in place, then four classes once his system is set.

And be ready after 12 years if you want to make a change, because every player will leave, every recruit will bail and you will have to massively overpay for a Division 3 coach to come to MU. You've been warned!
 

[Spaniel with a Short Tail]

Buzz left the cupboard bare, nothing.  Brought in Carlino, good move.  Then brought in Ellenson, good or bad move, depends.  Looking now, maybe Henry should have
stayed in school another year.  Then again he is making 1.5M or more sitting on the bench for 2 years.  Might be out of the league after next year, or get a ridiculous
contract like John Leuer or Miles Plumlee, Delly, Henson, Snell all getting funny money for below average players like Henry.  He can go play in Europe in 2 years.  Should
Wojo have taken Henry?  That is the question?  So 2 years were lost, 1 good year, this year after losing JJJ, Katin, Luke, Wilson, tough to lose all that leadership, to now
1 senior.  Expected in my book.  Even next year there is only 1 senior.  He is building classes, needs 2 top 100 kids in 2019 should be his goal.

Good point about Henry. It was short-term gain but at a long term cost since he bailed after 1 year (to his long term detriment IMHO). This whole Board was in agreement that Wojo HAD to take him once he expressed interest in MU but there was a long term cost to that in using up schollies on him and his brother as well as losing recruits that may have come here but we either moved on from or they moved on from us once Henry committed. This whole Board was sky high once Henry committed, but I can tell you that as soon as we missed the tourney his one year here and left for the NBA, well, it was pretty deflating. I certainly felt that the long term return did not meet even minimal expected ROI. That's another reason why I'm not going to let one loss to DePaul or a frustrating season like this overly sway me on Wojo. Long term, I think he is positioning us well for sustained success.

[skianth16]

Here's the thing, I don't care about a coach taking a team of someone else's players to a tourney or two. Any idiot can succeed if handed a great nucleus. I care about sustained success and what they do with their own players.

Cuonzo sucks. He built a one year winner at Cal and left a scrapyard fire behind. Holtmann is solid (proved it at Butler) but Bobby Hurley is still running with Sendek's guys at ASU and the team is taking a crap after a hot start. Let's see what he does when it's his own players. Keatts has done nothing with his own players. Buzz is a good coach but ran out of here with the program in tatters and left it far worse than he found it.

That's why next year matters. Not because I have blind faith in Wojo, but because I don't know if he can build a team and win with it. If next year's team is flirting with the top-25 all year, top-3 in the league, and in the 4-7 seed range with legit second weekend aspirations, then maybe we have something. If not, blow it up and start over.

Most of the guys you listed we have no idea if will work out long term. You would've fired Coach K, Jay Wright, and Al McGuire before they won anything. Maybe Wojo will never get there, but we'll never know if he doesn't get to coach the team he's been building for 4 years.

I think you summarized the pro-Wojo line of thinking very well here. What I wonder, though, is whether think line of thinking was established before Wojo arrived, or if this is something that many people have talked themselves into given our current situation. I assume some held these opinions on what qualifies as legitimate success for a coach all along, but I have a strong feeling that a good portion of the #respecttheprocess crew have backed into their criteria for success.

The thing that makes me the most confused and even frustrated at times is the number of coaches that posters here criticize or downplay in some kind of attempt to make Wojo look better. Downplaying other coaches' success as just being the result of more fortunate circumstances than we have dealt with doesn't improve our record or our shot at making the tournament. I guess judging a coach's ability is usually a relative comparison, but I find most of the criticism of other coaches to be awfully hypocritical.

[NickelDimer]

St John's is the league's worst team and when it was a must win game we won. Now you could say "Just remember in a game we should've won at the league's worst team we got worked" or "just remember in a must win game against the league's second worst team we got worked" but what you said is not correct at this point just fyi

DePaul vs St Johns head to head you’re going DePaul? It’s probably splitting hairs but I think DePaul is definitely the worst team in the conference

[GGGG]

I think you summarized the pro-Wojo line of thinking very well here. What I wonder, though, is whether think line of thinking was established before Wojo arrived, or if this is something that many people have talked themselves into given our current situation. I assume some held these opinions on what qualifies as legitimate success for a coach all along, but I have a strong feeling that a good portion of the #respecttheprocess crew have backed into their criteria for success.

Five years ago, I would have expected more success earlier. But I see improvement and understand what he is trying to build. I think he deserves next year to show off what he has developed.

I also get frustrated at the “blame Wojo” crowd every time they lose a game. It’s really ridiculous.