MUScoop
MUScoop => Hangin' at the Al => Topic started by: 1SE on October 26, 2017, 09:28:28 AM
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Sorry for the bevy of posts - clearly leaves are falling, air is getting crisp and I'm ready for some MUBB!
I thought it would be good to put everyone's Wojo expectations on record now. My Woj colored glasses are on - I'm excited about the season, think that everyone is underrating us (which gives us a nice MU chip on the shoulder), and figure there's no way in hell that with being the only thing they worked on over the summer we won't have a swinging gate pick'n'roll "D".
I'm encouraged by the UWM reports that Theo is a Robert Jackson-esque (those of you there, can I use that? How I miss Robert Jackson. Finally we have someone that can bang with Delgado?). I'm a bit concerned about how we'll fare in non-con without Frolling's depth, but am confident we can steal one we aren't supposed to which keeps us firmly in the NCAA convo all year. My pick is the "off the bubble" (if we're not at least in the NCAA Convo that is a big step back) although I was tempted to the D eff rating.
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Automatic firing would be losing to UWM. Wojo is safe this year.
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Where's the option for "
Paid Orchestrated payment of $500,000 to the Ellenson family; then paid orchestrated another $500,000 for Henry."
Outside of that, there isn't much Wojo can do (or not do) this year that would have me calling for his head; however, if MU finishes bottom four in conference two years in a row (not attributable to injuries, external factors beyond control, etc.), then I might have something to talk about.
[Edited by legal counsel]
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I want to see progress. That may not result in a tourney berth, but better defense, Sam and Markus moving forward and not regressing, and staying competitive with an overall winning record will suffice.
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I want to see progress. That may not result in a tourney berth, but better defense, Sam and Markus moving forward and not regressing, and staying competitive with an overall winning record will suffice.
Which I think would have to equate with us being on the bubble.
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Which I think would have to equate with us being on the bubble.
If that was all we saw, probably. I'm one of the eternal optimist types, so I think we have more upside than that. I believe 20+ wins, a top-100 defense, comparable offense to last year, and a 5-7 seed is perfectly realistic to hope for. But that's where the difference between what I hope to see happen and what I would be content with happening differs.
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For me to join a fire Wojo chorus, it would have to be an NCAA issue. Maybe a really bad overall losing record (like 12-18 or worse). I think he definitely has us on a steady progression in the right direction.
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For me to join a fire Wojo chorus, it would have to be an NCAA issue. Maybe a really bad overall losing record (like 12-18 or worse). I think he definitely has us on a steady progression in the right direction.
I'm about here as well. Any sort of serious violations would get me on the bandwagon.
An ugly record would depend on how MU got there. Were there a ton of injuries? Did MU lose a bunch of games by a single possession? Was MU completely non-competitive in the Big East? Were there multiple midseason transfers from key contributors? Not all ugly records are created equal. It'd have to be an absolutely disastrous season on the court for me to think Wojo should go after this season.
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I'm about here as well. Any sort of serious violations would get me on the bandwagon.
An ugly record would depend on how MU got there. Were there a ton of injuries? Did MU lose a bunch of games by a single possession? Was MU completely non-competitive in the Big East? Were there multiple midseason transfers from key contributors? Not all ugly records are created equal. It'd have to be an absolutely disastrous season on the court for me to think Wojo should go after this season.
Ditto on NCAA violations moving me to a 'time to move on' vote. Things like multiple midseason transfers from key contributors would certainly be an indication of a larger problem too - thankfully neither of those things seems remotely possible.
The only other thing that would shake my faith in Wojo's master plan would be lack of improvement in his time out speeches to the team that are shown on TV. If he has to rely on the same platitudes again this year it's probably time to move on.
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I'm about here as well. Any sort of serious violations would get me on the bandwagon.
An ugly record would depend on how MU got there. Were there a ton of injuries? Did MU lose a bunch of games by a single possession? Was MU completely non-competitive in the Big East? Were there multiple midseason transfers from key contributors? Not all ugly records are created equal. It'd have to be an absolutely disastrous season on the court for me to think Wojo should go after this season.
I really see the program going in the right direction. This year getting into the NCAA tournament would be outstanding. Different team this year then last. Have to learn
how to play D. With only 1 senior on the team, the following years should be a big improvement. Really like Morrow, big body that has done it, He is a proven rebounder, add Joey with Froling learning this year they will be able to play against anybody. Freshman will be much better, new arena to sell. With or without Grimes, they will be good. With Grimes they could be a Top 15 team, if Wojo can coach.
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Wojo is on the verge of landing a 5 star recruit and people are wondering what it takes to fire Wojo. SMH
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Wojo is on the verge of landing a 5 star recruit and people are wondering what it takes to fire Wojo. SMH
I agree, he was left nothing from Buzz, rebuilding the program from the ground floor, I do not know what people expect. Secondly, the guy works his ass off for MU
everyday. The fruits of his work will be starting to show the next few years. Yes, if they get Grimes for the one year, they should be really good next year. MY only
problem I have is the 14th player on scholarship. somebody might have to go.
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I voted our first loss, I tried to vote in teal but couldn't figure out how to do it. I'm with the NCAA violation crown. I am hard pressed to think anything that would get me on the fire Wojo bandwagon. I know some folks around here were pretty wound up last year but that was to early to judge. I could be wrong but seems to me that MU hoops is trending upward at a good clip.
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Wojo is on the verge of landing a 5 star recruit and people are wondering what it takes to fire Wojo. SMH
I agree with you except for the "on the verge of landing" part........
Top 4 with a chance doesn't equate to on the verge for me.
In 2 weeks we will likely know if we landed him or not....I give Wojo all the credit for getting us this far in the recruitment but if we don't land him then being close isn't going to count for much.
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Screw this! Fire him yesterday!!
I'm tired of looking at his de-motivating arse on our sideline. Can't recruit a lick, either.
If we can't raise Al from the dead - and really, have any of our science-major geniuses even taken a real crack at it? - we might as well just disband the damn program.
I'm sick of this mediocrity. Wojo - he gowne!
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Big year for Wojo. All his recruits now. Defense, please.
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Sorry for the bevy of posts - clearly leaves are falling, air is getting crisp and I'm ready for some MUBB!
I thought it would be good to put everyone's Wojo expectations on record now. My Woj colored glasses are on - I'm excited about the season, think that everyone is underrating us (which gives us a nice MU chip on the shoulder), and figure there's no way in hell that with being the only thing they worked on over the summer we won't have a swinging gate pick'n'roll "D".
I'm encouraged by the UWM reports that Theo is a Robert Jackson-esque (those of you there, can I use that? How I miss Robert Jackson. Finally we have someone that can bang with Delgado?). I'm a bit concerned about how we'll fare in non-con without Frolling's depth, but am confident we can steal one we aren't supposed to which keeps us firmly in the NCAA convo all year. My pick is the "off the bubble" (if we're not at least in the NCAA Convo that is a big step back) although I was tempted to the D eff rating.
After all o that can't wait for your picks on the Brew Thread.
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I'm not up on every utterance the 1000 Scoop monkeys have been typing on keyboards.
Who in the past 7ish months has suggested Wojo be fired?
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We would have to have two really bad seasons for me to get on board that train. However, if the defense is still a turnstile this year, it will make me lower my hopes of where Wojo can take us. We are past the point I think where we can keep using youth or Buzz's players excuses.
A lot have wondered about the scheme, including me. We don't even have to be great, just good enough that a top 10 offense does more than get us on a shaky bubble.
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There isn't an option that really fits me. I'm not sold Wojo is the savior but it would take a disaster of a performance to get me on the fire Wojo bandwagon (which hasn't been spotted for months as Hilltopper pointed out).
Ever since Wojo took over, I looked at this season as a probable down year. At the time, we had our highest rated recruiting class in a long time set to graduate this offseason. Plus, Luke was going to graduate and if I've learned anything about Marquette basketball its that we have hard time finding quality centers. I expect us to be a bubble team this season which means we are only a few bad breaks away from missing the postseason (NIT included) all together.
While I will enjoy this season and am hoping like hell we will exceed expectations, my gaze is already peeking ahead to to 18-19 & 19-20. Those seasons are shaping up to be our return to glory. So I guess the team would have to do so badly that I no longer believe that next season will be good. I don't see us getting close to that point.
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While I will enjoy this season and am hoping like hell we will exceed expectations, my gaze is already peeking ahead to to 18-19 & 19-20. Those seasons are shaping up to be our return to glory. So I guess the team would have to do so badly that I no longer believe that next season will be good. I don't see us getting close to that point.
The last time I was this excited for future seasons was looking ahead to 2013-14, when we'd have Vander Blue, Davante Gardner, Jamil Wilson, and Chris Otule as seniors, top-100 talents behind them in Juan Anderson, Steve Taylor, and (not top-100 but outplaying his rankings) Todd Mayo, and a stud recruiting class that included Deonte Burton, Jajuan Johnson, Duane Wilson, and uber-JUCO Jameel McKay.
The Final Four with that team seemed not just possible but damn near probable. And that's why I'm always nervous to get too excited for future teams...though I don't disagree with your assessment.
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The last time I was this excited for future seasons was looking ahead to 2013-14, when we'd have Vander Blue, Davante Gardner, Jamil Wilson, and Chris Otule as seniors, top-100 talents behind them in Juan Anderson, Steve Taylor, and (not top-100 but outplaying his rankings) Todd Mayo, and a stud recruiting class that included Deonte Burton, Jajuan Johnson, Duane Wilson, and uber-JUCO Jameel McKay.
The Final Four with that team seemed not just possible but damn near probable. And that's why I'm always nervous to get too excited for future teams...though I don't disagree with your assessment.
This
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You guys have a lot more patience then I do..20 years ago when I was younger, I'd have been where you are, but now, getting older, my patience wears thin easily for lots of things, ESPECIALLY MU not making the tourney.
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You guys have a lot more patience then I do..20 years ago when I was younger, I'd have been where you are, but now, getting older, my patience wears thin easily for lots of things, ESPECIALLY MU not making the tourney.
Aren't you supposed to get more patient and wiser with age? Have people been lying to me? Cause I was kind of banking on that
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Aren't you supposed to get more patient and wiser with age? Have people been lying to me? Cause I was kind of banking on that
You misunderstood. People were saying you get wider with age.
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Aren't you supposed to get more patient and wiser with age? Have people been lying to me? Cause I was kind of banking on that
Not lying to you, I think guru is a different sort of case. I was less patient when I was younger, and after Wade wasn't going to be satisfied with much other than Marquette springboarding from the Final Four back to elite status.
As the years have gone by and that hasn't happened, I've come to accept that it's a process and cannot happen overnight. Watching how programs like Villanova grew from mid-table to Champions, I think where we are now is where Jay Wright was in 2005. They didn't win a title for more than a decade.
All I want is one time cutting down the Final Four nets before I die. I don't remember 1977 (was born a month before the title), but I got the Cubs and Blackhawks titles I long coveted. Really hoping a Marquette basketball championship is next on my list.
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The only thing that get me on the 'fire Wojo' bandwagon this year is NCAA violations. I think this team will be a bubble team again. 3 of the group of 4 freshman/Froling/Sacar have to hit, as well as Haanif improving for this to be more than a bubble team.
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Letting Henry walk instead of keeping him for another year to develop https://twitter.com/DetroitPistons/status/923354621048844288
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Aren't you supposed to get more patient and wiser with age? Have people been lying to me? Cause I was kind of banking on that
I'm more patient about sports stuff like MU basketball. I'm less patient about stuff like standing in line.
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Not lying to you, I think guru is a different sort of case.
That's for sure. Based on stuff he's said over the past year or two, it's pretty evident that he "needs" MU basketball success more than most.
It would be easy to say his priorities are a little misplaced, but nah ... he's just into it crazy-hot. It takes all kinds to make a fan base. Still, that doesn't mean we can't remind him it's not life or death every once in awhile!
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I have been on record in several threads saying we should be 3rd in the Big East and make it to second week of Tournament. I have been a big fan of Wojos recruiting over time. I saw signs of his growth as a coach last year . In particular, the armistice he signed with JJJ last year was for the betterment of the team . Now that he has all his own guys, it is up to him and the staff to make it work.
I think the Detroit Trio plus Theo have the athletiscm to keep us in the conversation in coming years. Markus and The Hausers are also a band making great music . If Bailey matriculates we go to another level .
The only thing that would cause me to reevaluate my view would be a significant backward movement in Big East Conference play. As that is the acid test of the game coaching ability. 8th or worse would put him on hot seat .
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None of the above. Dumb poll.
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A point of reference that got brought up on an astounding podcast and some twitter talk.....we could finish with the same record in conference as last year, be statistically better, and not make the tournament. Making the tournament is but one of several metrics on performance, yes it's important and I would be disappointed if we don't make the NCAA, it is not cause for any action on Wojo.
A lot of how I feel about Wojo will be determined by KenPom this year, especially around defense. He knows it's a problem for at least 10 months now, if he can't make progress with the team thats a big concern.
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I have been on record in several threads saying we should be 3rd in the Big East and make it to second week of Tournament. I have been a big fan of Wojos recruiting over time. I saw signs of his growth as a coach last year . In particular, the armistice he signed with JJJ last year was for the betterment of the team . Now that he has all his own guys, it is up to him and the staff to make it work.
I think the Detroit Trio plus Theo have the athletiscm to keep us in the conversation in coming years. Markus and The Hausers are also a band making great music . If Bailey matriculates we go to another level .
The only thing that would cause me to reevaluate my view would be a significant backward movement in Big East Conference play. As that is the acid test of the game coaching ability. 8th or worse would put him on hot seat .
My problem with this assessment is that to be counting on 4 freshmen from outside the top 100 to be significant contributors as freshmen is asking for disappointment. If you are expecting them all to be able to give you 15-20 good minutes each per night, you are being unfair and unrealistic. And if it doesn't happen, you will blame the coach.
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My problem with this assessment is that to be counting on 4 freshmen from outside the top 100 to be significant contributors as freshmen is asking for disappointment. If you are expecting them all to be able to give you 15-20 good minutes each per night, you are being unfair and unrealistic. And if it doesn't happen, you will blame the coach.
But of course he'll blame Wojo. Plus all the demotivation by Wojo. He won't sign another armistice for sure!
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My problem with this assessment is that to be counting on 4 freshmen from outside the top 100 to be significant contributors as freshmen is asking for disappointment. If you are expecting them all to be able to give you 15-20 good minutes each per night, you are being unfair and unrealistic. And if it doesn't happen, you will blame the coach.
I am expecting Theo to give 10 quality minutes, Elliot and Cain to work their way to 6-7 by season end and a handful of minutes from Ike. My enthusiasm for the frosh stems strictly from their energy uplift when they are in. Next year will be more skills based.
The core Hauser, Markus and Rowsey may combine for 60 points some nights. That is where the excitement stems from. I also believe Haani is going to get back on track and Matt Heldt has a limited but well defined role he be effective in.
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I am expecting Theo to give 10 quality minutes, Elliot and Cain to work their way to 6-7 by season end and a handful of minutes from Ike. My enthusiasm for the frosh stems strictly from their energy uplift when they are in. Next year will be more skills based.
The core Hauser, Markus and Rowsey may combine for 60 points some nights. That is where the excitement stems from. I also believe Haani is going to get back on track and Matt Heldt has a limited but well defined role he be effective in.
Can't wait for your Picks on Brew's Prediction Thread. Hope its a Big Boy Pants Pick, and not a High Ceiling, Low Floor Range observation.
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Woo bringing us to the promise land
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Woo bringing us to the promise land
Wait ... Ronnie Woo Woo?
Marquette Woo! Warriors Woo!
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1. Wojo abuses players in practice.
2. Wojo commits a major NCAA violation.
3. Wojo brings to students waiting outside for first crack at student seating, donuts he bought the night before, instead of that morning's donuts.
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46% say Wojo is the savior. Help me understand. I want to be a true believer but the reality appear differently through my not so rose colored glasses.
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None of the above. Dumb poll.
This.
Although I do like that this thread led to MUFINY to claim he has been a Wojo fan.
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46% say Wojo is the savior. Help me understand. I want to be a true believer but the reality appear differently through my not so rose colored glasses.
Considering what wojo started with, what were your expectations? Steady improvement. Made tourney in third season. Stringing together classes that fill needs. A little bit like Maximus. Are you not entertained?
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Since I don't have any vision of jumping on the fire Wojo wagon this year, the choice of him being our savior was the closest option to what I believe. Next time, make a better poll.
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You misunderstood. People were saying you get wider with age.
(https://img.washingtonpost.com/wp-apps/imrs.php?src=https://img.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2016/01/pounds.png&w=480)
As to Wojo, he is maturing as a coach. As I stated in the past, I wish he did like Carolyn did and just got his players in from the get-go. In the end, there was a lot of wasted time and resources, and the inevitable happened anyway (players left or were Pole-whacked). Now, he has his guys here, recruited for his systems and by his coaches. There is stability in the program, the athletic department and university. This is a make year for Wojo, not a break year.
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Personally, I'm a little concerned about the declining quality of play in the noon-ball coaches games.
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Judging by the Purdue thread, lots of people answered this poll dishonestly!
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Judging by the Purdue thread, lots of people answered this poll dishonestly!
I didn't answer because I thought the poll was pointless. Still is.
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I have no faith that we would hire a better coach, if we let Wojo go. I think it is more of a talent problem than a coaching problem. Of course the coach is responsible for the talent on the team
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Bilsu
I am with you across the board. Stick with Wojo and see what happens. While I might not like the progress, ride it out for 2-3 more years. Let him try and recruit talent and see where it goes. At this point, it is lack on high level talent that is the problem.
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We gave Wojo our Set of the Week for a play he drew up vs. VCU in Maui. Based off his ability to recruit and the strides the've made offensively I think giving him time to figure it out defensively is prudent. Having Rowsey and Howard playing together is a double edged sword. Here's a link to our article for anyone interested:
https://sixwinsinmarch.wordpress.com/2017/11/26/six-wins-set-of-the-week-marquette
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We gave Wojo our Set of the Week for a play he drew up vs. VCU in Maui. Based off his ability to recruit and the strides the've made offensively I think giving him time to figure it out defensively is prudent. Having Rowsey and Howard playing together is a double edged sword. Here's a link to our article for anyone interested:
https://sixwinsinmarch.wordpress.com/2017/11/26/six-wins-set-of-the-week-marquette
Love your logo - too bad it isn't practical to work Marquette's in there...
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Love your logo - too bad it isn't practical to work Marquette's in there...
Thank you so much!!
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Love your logo - too bad it isn't practical to work Marquette's in there...
...unless we change our goal to be 6 wins in MUrch which sounds way less stressful than 'March' (but it is a solid logo).
Good analysis of back to back plays. Thanks for sharing.
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Sub 150 Kenpom D: Check
Loss to DePaul: Check
Off the Bubble: I don't think we're "next four out" anywhere
I'm glad the 40.7% of you are still keeping the faith, but I hope you'll all consider Wojo's seat to be just a bit above 0 Kelvin next year. Or even this year if we lose out which, after today, doesn't seem completely far fetched.
Yeeeash.
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The only thing that get me on the 'fire Wojo' bandwagon this year is NCAA violations. I think this team will be a bubble team again. 3 of the group of 4 freshman/Froling/Sacar have to hit, as well as Haanif improving for this to be more than a bubble team.
Prescient. Whole bunch of people looking at sanctions. Freshmen are OK, bit I wouldn't call them hits. I stand by this.
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Prescient. Whole bunch of people looking at sanctions. Freshmen are OK, bit I wouldn't call them hits. I stand by this.
Unless there's a big turnaround (3 straight wins, minimum, which, btw we haven't done since beating the powerhouse of WI, NIU and American) no one is going to be sweating selection Sunday. I'd call that not a bubble team.
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Wojo’s seat is ice, ice cold.
A week ago people were saying we were the worst team in the BE and weren’t going to win another game.
Lose one chucker, add two impact player and another high ceiling freshman. Just get me that point guard. My only concern with Wojo is no point guard who understands how to control a game.
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Wojo’s seat is ice, ice cold.
A week ago people were saying we were the worst team in the BE and weren’t going to win another game.
Lose one chucker, add two impact player and another high ceiling freshman. Just get me that point guard. My only concern withurWojo is no point guard who understands how to control a game.
If we lose out (which I think is as likely as winning 3 in a row) and you don't think we should at least have our finger in the air THIS year.
If we do not make the NCAA this year, the seat has to be warm for next year. I too, am hopeful that the pieces will work. But what happens when we don't land the stud PG that everyone seems to assume is already a lock? What happens when we have another mid-season transfer? Do we give Wojo another pass because he still doesn't have "his guys"?
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I promise you that even if we lose out, Wojos butt will still be frosty. Unless there are sanctions, have a losing season, or there are significant locker room issues Wojo will not be fired next season. Barring disaster he will get 6 years.
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If we lose out (which I think is as likely as winning 3 in a row) and you don't think we should at least have our finger in the air THIS year.
I don’t understand your logic here.
So, you don’t think that we will lose out this year but want Wojo fired regardless?
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I promise you that even if we lose out, Wojos butt will still be frosty. Unless there are sanctions, have a losing season, or there are significant locker room issues Wojo will not be fired next season. Barring disaster he will get 6 years.
6 years? FFS. I don't understand you Wojo homers at all. What have you possibly seen that warrants a 6-year guarantee? So we can see what happens when his THIRD recruiting class becomes upperclassmen?
Wojo either can't recruit, can't coach, or some of both. There are no other explanations at this point. If we don't make the NCAA next year with a team that you all think should be a secured seed/second weekend, then he needs to go.
And if we lose out this year we're 16-15 and not going to the NIT. A grand total of one first-round exit in 4 years should at least have the BOTs eyes open if, by some happenstance, some ideal candidate falls in their laps.
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I promise you that even if we lose out, Wojos butt will still be frosty. Unless there are sanctions, have a losing season, or there are significant locker room issues Wojo will not be fired next season. Barring disaster he will get 6 years.
Slurp...slurp.
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Slurp...slurp.
Dealing in the realm of reality = slurper.
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Dealing in the realm of reality = slurper.
No, failure to recognize mediocrity of Wojo =slurper. But...we will be really good next year.
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6 years? FFS. I don't understand you Wojo homers at all. What have you possibly seen that warrants a 6-year guarantee? So we can see what happens when his THIRD recruiting class becomes upperclassmen?
Wojo either can't recruit, can't coach, or some of both. There are no other explanations at this point. If we don't make the NCAA next year with a team that you all think should be a secured seed/second weekend, then he needs to go.
And if we lose out this year we're 16-15 and not going to the NIT. A grand total of one first-round exit in 4 years should at least have the BOTs eyes open if, by some happenstance, some ideal candidate falls in their laps.
I could be wrong but I don’t think TAMU is necessarily saying what he wants to happen but rather what he believes will happen re Wojo
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I could be wrong but I don’t think TAMU is necessarily saying what he wants to happen but rather what he believes will happen re Wojo
Maybe, but presumably if enough people vote with their feet (or wallets I guess) maybe the BOT will take notice. Although I guess that will be obscured next year with the new stadium.
I really want to believe that all of the pieces are coming together. But when you lose to DePaul, when your NCAA tournament life is on the line (along with all of the other disappointments over the past year/4 years) it's hard to see the light in that tunnel, or to balance the creeping mediocrity against the Villanova win and a 1st round tourney exit.
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Sadly, I am agreeing with this analysis. I am not saying Wojo deserves 6 years, but unless the Warriors completely collapse next season, Wojo will be the Warriors head coach for the 2019-2020 season.
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6 years? FFS. I don't understand you Wojo homers at all. What have you possibly seen that warrants a 6-year guarantee? So we can see what happens when his THIRD recruiting class becomes upperclassmen?
Wojo either can't recruit, can't coach, or some of both. There are no other explanations at this point. If we don't make the NCAA next year with a team that you all think should be a secured seed/second weekend, then he needs to go.
And if we lose out this year we're 16-15 and not going to the NIT. A grand total of one first-round exit in 4 years should at least have the BOTs eyes open if, by some happenstance, some ideal candidate falls in their laps.
There are lots of insecure people who gain a modicum of security by being associated with someone who came from Duke. This insecurity starts with Lovell, works its way through the Board of Trustees and then to the slurpers on this website.
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Maybe, but presumably if enough people vote with their feet (or wallets I guess) maybe the BOT will take notice. Although I guess that will be obscured next year with the new stadium.
I really want to believe that all of the pieces are coming together. But when you lose to DePaul, when you're NCAA tournament life is on the line (along with all of the other disappointments over the past year/4 years) it's hard to see the light in that tunnel, or to balance the creeping mediocrity against the Villanova win and a 1st round tourney exit.
Yeah I don’t believe they are. At this point I’m just hoping I’m wrong. I want nothing more. But I don’t believe in Wojo
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There are lots of insecure people who gain a modicum of security by being associated with someone who came from Duke. This insecurity starts with Lovell, works its way through the Board of Trustees and then to the slurpers on this website.
Lol. There it is. Was wondering when the blame game started for your pretending that Wojo should be taking a team with a single senior and single junior on it to a top 3 finish and S16 appearance. Sad that you would intentionally set an insane bar just so at this point in the season you can bash Wojo for not “meeting expectations.”
Of all the stupidity you’ve shared here, this might take the cake. Well done.
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Yeah I don’t believe they are. At this point I’m just hoping I’m wrong. I want nothing more. But I don’t believe in Wojo
The problem is he does *just enough* to not get fired. I gif'ed it before, but he's the Peter Gibbons of NCAA basketball coaches.
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Almost wish Wojo would be caught up in the NCAA scandal...seems to be the only way the BT and admin would even consider firing him. But hey, he has good kids(off the court), and the graduate. That's all that matters now days in the big time world of NCAA hoops, right?? I miss the days when winning truly mattered to everyone at MU. It makes me sad. Heck, even a lot of the fans have adopted the(at least the kids stay out of trouble) mantra. That's pathetic. This was a once proud program not long ago..yet, so many are willing to give Wojo essentially all the slack he wants(1 NCAA appearance and 1st round exit) in 4 years, is okay with some.
MAYBE just maybe, if they play the final game at the BC in front of a half filled arena, it might make a few people notice, but sadly, that's not going to happen.
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Almost wish Wojo would be caught up in the NCAA scandal...seems to be the only way the BT and admin would even consider firing him. But hey, he has good kids(off the court), and the graduate. That's all that matters now days in the big time world of NCAA hoops, right?? I miss the days when winning truly mattered to everyone at MU. It makes me sad. Heck, even a lot of the fans have adopted the(at least the kids stay out of trouble) mantra. That's pathetic. This was a once proud program not long ago..yet, so many are willing to give Wojo essentially all the slack he wants(1 NCAA appearance and 1st round exit) in 4 years, is okay with some.
MAYBE just maybe, if they play the final game at the BC in front of a half filled arena, it might make a few people notice, but sadly, that's not going to happen.
Talk about a loser...
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Lol. There it is. Was wondering when the blame game started for your pretending that Wojo should be taking a team with a single senior and single junior on it to a top 3 finish and S16 appearance. Sad that you would intentionally set an insane bar just so at this point in the season you can bash Wojo for not “meeting expectations.”
Of all the stupidity you’ve shared here, this might take the cake. Well done.
However, if Wojo's first and second recruiting class had developed, there wouldn't be only 1 senior and 1 junior. Wojo has to take some of the blame for the lack of developed upper classmen.
Next year is the crucial year in my mind, but posters have a reason to question Wojo's capabilities.
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Talk about a loser...
Thank you for saying it.
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Talk about a loser...
Some of you here are happy with where the program is, and are willing to accept the mediocrity that has prevailed under Wojo...Others of us, have MUCH higher expectations for the program..you know like making the NCAA's every year, being in the top half of the conference, etc. But wait...there's always next year, right?? And if that fails, there will be next year...or the year after that, right?? Who's the loser??
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No, failure to recognize mediocrity of Wojo =slurper. But...we will be really good next year.
Then I guess the whole administration is slurping away....
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Then I guess the whole administration is slurping away....
+1000 They are and it's sad really, as are so many MU fans now days.
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Then I guess the whole administration is slurping away....
you guessed right. Still impressed with that magnificent power point presentation.
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I could be wrong but I don’t think TAMU is necessarily saying what he wants to happen but rather what he believes will happen re Wojo
Correct. At this point I would want to give him a 6th year too...but it really depends on how next season goes. Year 5 is the one I have been waiting for.
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Maybe, but presumably if enough people vote with their feet (or wallets I guess) maybe the BOT will take notice. Although I guess that will be obscured next year with the new stadium.
I really want to believe that all of the pieces are coming together. But when you lose to DePaul, when your NCAA tournament life is on the line (along with all of the other disappointments over the past year/4 years) it's hard to see the light in that tunnel, or to balance the creeping mediocrity against the Villanova win and a 1st round tourney exit.
No need to vote with your wallet. If Wojo doesn't deliver in the next two years he will be fired.
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No need to vote with your wallet. If Wojo doesn't deliver in the next two years he will be fired.
Yes but what is "delivering"?? I'm afraid that with the current administration/board, making the NCAA's will be good enough..whoopie!!
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Wojo either can't recruit, can't coach, or some of both. There are no other explanations at this point. If we don't make the NCAA next year with a team that you all think should be a secured seed/second weekend, then he needs to go.
Wojo didn't deserve a 6 year guarantee when he started. He earned it by meeting expectations each season. Year 1, put a team on the court. Year 2, get better. Year 3, make the tourney. Year 4, weather the departures of a bunch of upperclassmen and put together a young and competitive team. You may not like it, but that's what the reasonable expectations were first years 1-4. Wojo has yet to exceed any of them (so your Peter Gibbons reference may end being true) but he has yet to miss any of them.
The game changes in year 5 and year 6. It's not enough to just make the tournament he will be expected to make the tournament comfortably. If he fails next season, it will be the first time he didn't make expectations in a season. I don't think he gets fired the first time he fails. I think he will get one more chance and if he fails again he will be gone.
Wojo either can't recruit, can't coach, or some of both. There are no other explanations at this point. If we don't make the NCAA next year with a team that you all think should be a secured seed/second weekend, then he needs to go.
There actually are other explanations. Wojo inherited a team that was going to have its best players graduate between year 3 and year 4. Unless Wojo decided to run those players off, there was always going to be off between years 3 and year 4. We were old last season, we're young this season, and we'll be old again next season. Part of the natural ebb and flow of college basketball.
And if we lose out this year we're 16-15 and not going to the NIT. A grand total of one first-round exit in 4 years should at least have the BOTs eyes open if, by some happenstance, some ideal candidate falls in their laps.
Losing out would probably mean no NIT. I don't think we're going to lose out but we could. It would be interesting if an "ideal candidate" became available after year 5. If year 5 is a fail (but not a disaster), I think Wojo still gets one more year. But if some ideal candidate was available and made it known that he would take the job, I wonder if the BOT would act on it.
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Yes but what is "delivering"?? I'm afraid that with the current administration/board, making the NCAA's will be good enough..whoopie!!
Your assumption would be incorrect. Game changes in year 5. It's no longer about growth, it's about sustained and elevating success. If we're not competing for top seeds and conference championships in years 5 and 6, then it will be time to move on.
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Some of you here are happy with where the program is, and are willing to accept the mediocrity that has prevailed under Wojo...Others of us, have MUCH higher expectations for the program..you know like making the NCAA's every year, being in the top half of the conference, etc. But wait...there's always next year, right?? And if that fails, there will be next year...or the year after that, right?? Who's the loser??
Again, you should learn how to read. No one is happy with this. No one is saying Wojo is a great coach right now. People are saying that next year is the year to judge for multiple reasons - its been what he has been building for.
Furthermore it's just reality. All the bitching and moaning in the world isn't going to change the fact that Wojo will be here next year.
Seriously stop misrepresenting what people are saying. Either learn how to read or go root for someone else.
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Lol. There it is. Was wondering when the blame game started for your pretending that Wojo should be taking a team with a single senior and single junior on it to a top 3 finish and S16 appearance. Sad that you would intentionally set an insane bar just so at this point in the season you can bash Wojo for not “meeting expectations.”
Of all the stupidity you’ve shared here, this might take the cake. Well done.
Not true. The guy stated he liked to have intentionally unprotected sex with girls because they were drunk.
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No need to vote with your wallet. If Wojo doesn't deliver in the next two years he will be fired.
Wojo will not be fired. The bromance with Lovell is stronger than ever. The BOT loves that they have a Duke guy. Scholl is smart enough to know that the real AD at Marquette is and always has been the head basketball coach. So no constituency for change.
The only way Wojo goes, is if there is a Power 5 football school that has a basketball opening and a deep pocketed donor who will provide the tools of the trade. Absent that Wojo is our coach for the long term.
Looking forward to winning the next two games and then a spirited run in the BET. Season is far from over.
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Well those are some really dumb choices... I think people need to relax a little in the sense that a team is never as good as you may think. MU won at Prov and Creighton, who both beat Nova. And never as bad on the gloomy days either.
Lately, Wojo has been the target of peoples frustration and i think at times well deserved. Today i really dont believe so.
First half if we simply rebound the ball and dont turn it over we are up 15+. Now Wojo is ultimately in charge butmany of those turnovers were simply unforced and many if the rebounds were thru our hands. Wojo didnt tell them to fumble rebounds or too throw the ball away on half of our first half breaks.
Second half Rowsey was terrible, wojo has stressed Rowsey as a pass first PG. 16 assists in our two wins, 1 today and many many stupid “im going to put the team on my back “ shots. Howard too, great shooter last year within the offense, this year a hero ball chucker.
Whats Wojo gonna do bench them both? And play whom? Elliott and Cain? They are Freshman matching up against bigger stronger upper classmen and struggled today. Cain 4 fouls in 6 minutes? No one clicked. Wojo kept trying different things. Went big, went small, tried zone, the zone didnt werk either. Man defense was sufficient but could not finish the possesions with boards.
We struggled offensively an howard and especially Rowsey decided to shoot us out of it.
Alot of credit goes to Depaul, they had 6” and 20lbs and at least two yrs of experience on their matchup across the board today, on top of it and most importantly they played smarter than us. In a year or two sam, jamal, theo, joey, cain, morrow etc will all be older, stronger and smarter.
I understand No one wants to give depaul any credit and the only reason we could have lost is because Wojo sucks. But depaul does have BE players n they out played us today with physical n mental maturity. Coaches lose games but not this one.
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Correct. At this point I would want to give him a 6th year too...but it really depends on how next season goes. Year 5 is the one I have been waiting for.
what are you expecting TAMU
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Again, you should learn how to read. No one is happy with this. No one is saying Wojo is a great coach right now. People are saying that next year is the year to judge for multiple reasons - its been what he has been building for.
Furthermore it's just reality. All the bitching and moaning in the world isn't going to change the fact that Wojo will be here next year.
Seriously stop misrepresenting what people are saying. Either learn how to read or go root for someone else.
This is the part that irritates me to no end, people giving Wojo a pass until year 5...I will ask again, why SHOULD it take that long?? How long did it take Cuonzo Martin to take Missouri(one of the worst high major programs for years) back to the NCAA's(and playing without an all american all year I might add), How long did it take Buzz to rebuild Va Tech(he will now be getting his 2nd NCAA berth in 4 years, plus one NIT bid), Chris Holtmann at OSU, in ONE year he has taken a moribound program, and had them competing for the top of the B10 and in the NCAA tournament. Danny Hurley at ASU, how long has it taken him?? Keatts at NC State, will likely make the NCAA's this year(or at least very close to it). I just don't get why Wojo gets such a pass for his first 4 years, and others have demonstrated that they can turn programs around in 1 year. It baffles me.
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Wojo will not be fired. The bromance with Lovell is stronger than ever. The BOT loves that they have a Duke guy. Scholl is smart enough to know that the real AD at Marquette is and always has been the head basketball coach. So no constituency for change.
The only way Wojo goes, is if there is a Power 5 football school that has a basketball opening and a deep pocketed donor who will provide the tools of the trade. Absent that Wojo is our coach for the long term.
Looking forward to winning the next two games and then a spirited run in the BET. Season is far from over.
Hey Hermie,
I know your a yuge insider. Whatever happened to that contact extension for Wojo that you said was already finalized because Lovell had such a man crush on Wojo? I didn't read anything about it ever going through. What happened?
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This is the part that irritates me to no end, people giving Wojo a pass until year 5...I will ask again, why SHOULD it take that long?? How long did it take Cuonzo Martin to take Missouri(one of the worst high major programs for years) back to the NCAA's(and playing without an all american all year I might add), How long did it take Buzz to rebuild Va Tech(he will now be getting his 2nd NCAA berth in 4 years, plus one NIT bid), Chris Holtmann at OSU, in ONE year he has taken a moribound program, and had them competing for the top of the B10 and in the NCAA tournament. Danny Hurley at ASU, how long has it taken him?? Keatts at NC State, will likely make the NCAA's this year(or at least very close to it). I just don't get why Wojo gets such a pass for his first 4 years, and others have demonstrated that they can turn programs around in 1 year. It baffles me.
OK. I guess I will just breathlessly bitch about him on a message board. That will solve everything.
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This is the part that irritates me to no end, people giving Wojo a pass until year 5...I will ask again, why SHOULD it take that long?? How long did it take Cuonzo Martin to take Missouri(one of the worst high major programs for years) back to the NCAA's(and playing without an all american all year I might add), How long did it take Buzz to rebuild Va Tech(he will now be getting his 2nd NCAA berth in 4 years, plus one NIT bid), Chris Holtmann at OSU, in ONE year he has taken a moribound program, and had them competing for the top of the B10 and in the NCAA tournament. Danny Hurley at ASU, how long has it taken him?? Keatts at NC State, will likely make the NCAA's this year(or at least very close to it). I just don't get why Wojo gets such a pass for his first 4 years, and others have demonstrated that they can turn programs around in 1 year. It baffles me.
Guru those teams all had significantly better talent returning than MU. Now im not saying Wojo is blamless but he had very little to werk with. Osu has mcdonalds all americans n other big time players, nc state talent too. They under acheived under an old coach. Buzz got to take his players with him. Im not saying every rebuild has to take 5 years, but along the same lines not every rebuild is the same. So quit beating the same dead horse. And while ur at it give him some fin credit for getting the team into the ncaas last year. Have u forgotten that already.??? This team is prolly two different game results from being an ncaa team its nit like we are a 10-20 program. And i realize its year 4 , u wont let anyone forget, but we r really young and talented.
Give it a rest it would be malpractice n imprudent for tge administration to do anything at this point.
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Not true. The guy stated he liked to have intentionally unprotected sex with girls because they were drunk.
You are correct. I stand very much corrected.
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The tiring thing about WW & muguru and the others who come out of the woodwork after a loss is it's so black and white with them. You must agree with them that Wojo needs to be fired today. Don't agree with this? Well you must be a "slurper" or want Wojo retained for time immemorial regardless of record. sigh. My guess is those of us that want to give Wojo more time are at different points on the spectrum and I doubt any of us are much beyond 2 more years for valid reasons that TAMU tends to set forth in a more cogent manner than I ever could. But I guess it is simply easier to turn to insults. That's the type of stuff that makes the Board unreadable at times.
TAMU must get tired of having to retype his thoughts on this over and over and over again.
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what are you expecting TAMU
For next season? Assuming no major additions or defections: Top 4 in conference. Team that flirts with the top 25 all season. Somewhere between a 4-8 seed in the NCAAs. Year after that? Even better. Legitimate Final Four contender (but there's a lot of time between now and then).
Look at the Big East standings to the left. Two elite teams at the top and then 4 teams at 9-7. We're sitting just below them at 7-9. It seems like we're just a cut below those 4 this season. Here's what is going to happen to those teams in the offseason:
Butler: Graduate All Big East Kelan Martin and starting center Tyler Wideman. Brings in one recruit rated #378 by 247 Composite. Brings in a midseason transfer from Duke (only appeared in 2 games) who was a top 75 type player. Trend?: Down
Creighton: Graduates All Big East First team Markus Foster, starting big Toby Hegner, and backup big Manny Suarez. May also lose all Big East Khyri Thomas to draft (currently projects as a late first rounder). Brings in a solid recruiting class with three 4 star players (but none in the top 100). Also brings in a transfer who averaged 5 points for New Mexico last season. Krampelj also returns from injury but who knows how he'll be after his second ACL tear. Trend?: Neutral (if Thomas stays) Down (if Thomas goes)
Providence: Graduates All Big East players Kyron Cartwright and Rodney Bullock as well as starting wing Jalen Lindsey. Bring in a great recruiting class with two top 50 players (#42, #44) and two 3 stars. May get Emmitt Holt back from injury. Trend?: Down
Seton Hall: Graduates All Big East Player Angel Delgado and starters Khadeen Carrington, Desi Rodriguez, and Ish Sanogo. Brings in two 3 stars rated in the 200s. Also brings in a solid transfer from Syracuse and a high scoring transfer from Sacred Heart. Trend? Down
Compare that to:
Marquette: Graduates Andrew Rowsey, a big loss for sure (though a net positive just on defense). Brings in a solid transfer from Nebraska, a top 50 freshman, a 21 year old freshman who was a top 75 player, and brings back a 3 star project from redshirt. Trend?: Up.
A lot still needs to happen between this season and next season, but as of now, things are looking very good for us.
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This is the part that irritates me to no end, people giving Wojo a pass until year 5...I will ask again, why SHOULD it take that long?? How long did it take Cuonzo Martin to take Missouri(one of the worst high major programs for years) back to the NCAA's(and playing without an all american all year I might add), How long did it take Buzz to rebuild Va Tech(he will now be getting his 2nd NCAA berth in 4 years, plus one NIT bid), Chris Holtmann at OSU, in ONE year he has taken a moribound program, and had them competing for the top of the B10 and in the NCAA tournament. Danny Hurley at ASU, how long has it taken him?? Keatts at NC State, will likely make the NCAA's this year(or at least very close to it). I just don't get why Wojo gets such a pass for his first 4 years, and others have demonstrated that they can turn programs around in 1 year. It baffles me.
Here, read this:
https://painttouches.com/2018/02/19/a-brief-history-of-the-modern-college-basketball-rebuild/
It will answer a lot of your questions.
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For next season? Assuming no major additions or defections: Top 4 in conference. Team that flirts with the top 25 all season. Somewhere between a 4-8 seed in the NCAAs. Year after that? Even better. Legitimate Final Four contender (but there's a lot of time between now and then).
Look at the Big East standings to the left. Two elite teams at the top and then 4 teams at 9-7. We're sitting just below them at 7-9. It seems like we're just a cut below those 4 this season. Here's what is going to happen to those teams in the offseason:
Butler: Graduate All Big East Kelan Martin and starting center Tyler Wideman. Brings in one recruit rated #378 by 247 Composite. Brings in a midseason transfer from Duke (only appeared in 2 games) who was a top 75 type player. Trend?: Down
Creighton: Graduates All Big East First team Markus Foster, starting big Toby Hegner, and backup big Manny Suarez. May also lose all Big East Khyri Thomas to draft (currently projects as a late first rounder). Brings in a solid recruiting class with three 4 star players (but none in the top 100). Also brings in a transfer who averaged 5 points for New Mexico last season. Krampelj also returns from injury but who knows how he'll be after his second ACL tear. Trend?: Neutral (if Thomas stays) Down (if Thomas goes)
Providence: Graduates All Big East players Kyron Cartwright and Rodney Bullock as well as starting wing Jalen Lindsey. Bring in a great recruiting class with two top 50 players (#42, #44) and two 3 stars. May get Emmitt Holt back from injury. Trend?: Down
Seton Hall: Graduates All Big East Player Angel Delgado and starters Khadeen Carrington, Desi Rodriguez, and Ish Sanogo. Brings in two 3 stars rated in the 200s. Also brings in a solid transfer from Syracuse and a high scoring transfer from Sacred Heart. Trend? Down
Compare that to:
Marquette: Graduates Andrew Rowsey, a big loss for sure (though a net positive just on defense). Brings in a solid transfer from Nebraska, a top 50 freshman, a 21 year old freshman who was a top 75 player, and brings back a 3 star project from redshirt. Trend?: Up.
A lot still needs to happen between this season and next season, but as of now, things are looking very good for us.
And:
Besides that tier
Xavier loses Blueitt, Macura, Kanter, O’Mara. Big down
St. John’s loses LoVett, Ahmed and maybe Ponds. They do get South Carolina big man Keita.
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The tiring thing about WW & muguru and the others who come out of the woodwork after a loss is it's so black and white with them. You must agree with them that Wojo needs to be fired today. Don't agree with this? Well you must be a "slurper" or want Wojo retained for time immemorial regardless of record. sigh. My guess is those of us that want to give Wojo more time are at different points on the spectrum and I doubt any of us are much beyond 2 more years for valid reasons that TAMU tends to set forth in a more cogent manner than I ever could. But I guess it is simply easier to turn to insults. That's the type of stuff that makes the Board unreadable at times.
TAMU must get tired of having to retype his thoughts on this over and over and over again.
I don't care who agrees with me, we all have our opinions on the matter. I'm just tired of the losing, and those of you that have the patience for that kind of thing...kudos to you. I just don't. Never will have it..been too competitive my whole life to ever be comfortable with losing.
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For next season? Assuming no major additions or defections: Top 4 in conference. Team that flirts with the top 25 all season. Somewhere between a 4-8 seed in the NCAAs. Year after that? Even better. Legitimate Final Four contender (but there's a lot of time between now and then).
Look at the Big East standings to the left. Two elite teams at the top and then 4 teams at 9-7. We're sitting just below them at 7-9. It seems like we're just a cut below those 4 this season. Here's what is going to happen to those teams in the offseason:
Butler: Graduate All Big East Kelan Martin and starting center Tyler Wideman. Brings in one recruit rated #378 by 247 Composite. Brings in a midseason transfer from Duke (only appeared in 2 games) who was a top 75 type player. Trend?: Down
Creighton: Graduates All Big East First team Markus Foster, starting big Toby Hegner, and backup big Manny Suarez. May also lose all Big East Khyri Thomas to draft (currently projects as a late first rounder). Brings in a solid recruiting class with three 4 star players (but none in the top 100). Also brings in a transfer who averaged 5 points for New Mexico last season. Krampelj also returns from injury but who knows how he'll be after his second ACL tear. Trend?: Neutral (if Thomas stays) Down (if Thomas goes)
Providence: Graduates All Big East players Kyron Cartwright and Rodney Bullock as well as starting wing Jalen Lindsey. Bring in a great recruiting class with two top 50 players (#42, #44) and two 3 stars. May get Emmitt Holt back from injury. Trend?: Down
Seton Hall: Graduates All Big East Player Angel Delgado and starters Khadeen Carrington, Desi Rodriguez, and Ish Sanogo. Brings in two 3 stars rated in the 200s. Also brings in a solid transfer from Syracuse and a high scoring transfer from Sacred Heart. Trend? Down
Compare that to:
Marquette: Graduates Andrew Rowsey, a big loss for sure (though a net positive just on defense). Brings in a solid transfer from Nebraska, a top 50 freshman, a 21 year old freshman who was a top 75 player, and brings back a 3 star project from redshirt. Trend?: Up.
A lot still needs to happen between this season and next season, but as of now, things are looking very good for us.
The two Seton Hall transfers have some proven playing ability. Obviously they are replacing big time players. So time will tell.
http://www.syracuse.com/orangebasketball/index.ssf/2017/09/seton_hall_confirms_transfer_of_former_syracuse_player_taurean_thompson.html
https://www.app.com/story/sports/college/2017/06/02/seton-hall-adds-transfer-mcknight-3-things-know-guard/367086001/
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I don't care who agrees with me, we all have our opinions on the matter. I'm just tired of the losing, and those of you that have the patience for that kind of thing...kudos to you. I just don't. Never will have it..been too competitive my whole life to ever be comfortable with losing.
Here's where we agree - I'm tired of losing also. I also don't think that success is measured by reaching the tourney; need success in the tourney. I just think when you look at an analysis that TAMU just provided that the future looks bright. Nothing is guaranteed (transfers, injuries, etc.) but the future looks bright to me for sustained success. So I take a deep breath after games like today and get ready to cheer the boys on against GT.
I also NEVER want to see MU have a headline like Arizona received today. Winning that way isn't worth it. Assuming that headline was about Marquette, would you be OK with that as the price for a winning program?
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And:
Besides that tier
Xavier loses Blueitt, Macura, Kanter, O’Mara. Big down
St. John’s loses LoVett, Ahmed and maybe Ponds. They do get South Carolina big man Keita.
Exactly.
Hell, Villanova could have up to three players decide to go pro (I don't think they will but maybe 2). And DePaul loses its starting PF and C. The only players on their team taller than 6"6 are going to be a 3 star true freshman and backups Paul Reed and Jaylen Butz.
The only two teams who should be trending up next season are Marquette and Georgetown. There should be a big power vacuum underneath Villanova next season and Marquette is in a good position to take advantage. I think Creighton, Marquette, and Xavier are going to be battling for the spot after Nova next season.
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I don't care who agrees with me, we all have our opinions on the matter. I'm just tired of the losing, and those of you that have the patience for that kind of thing...kudos to you. I just don't. Never will have it..been too competitive my whole life to ever be comfortable with losing.
Coached enough to see it from all sides, seen enough actual death and tragedy to lose my mind anymore.
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I don't care who agrees with me, we all have our opinions on the matter. I'm just tired of the losing, and those of you that have the patience for that kind of thing...kudos to you. I just don't. Never will have it..been too competitive my whole life to ever be comfortable with losing.
We're all tired of losing Brother Guru. I don't think many of us have the patience for this thing. Mrs. TAMU wasn't home when I watched the game so there was a lot of yelling. Had to put the dog outside with about 10 minutes left because I realized he was pretty freaked out. I share your frustration. I just choose to look at where we are going rather than where we are. Only thing that has kept me sane during this rebuild.
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Hey, at least we ain't Pitt..,
https://www.yahoo.com/sports/pitt-played-one-worst-halves-basketball-ever-230616959.html
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Here's where we agree - I'm tired of losing also. I also don't think that success is measured by reaching the tourney; need success in the tourney. I just think when you look at an analysis that TAMU just provided that the future looks bright. Nothing is guaranteed (transfers, injuries, etc.) but the future looks bright to me for sustained success. So I take a deep breath after games like today and get ready to cheer the boys on against GT.
I also NEVER want to see MU have a headline like Arizona received today. Winning that way isn't worth it. Assuming that headline was about Marquette, would you be OK with that as the price for a winning program?
Never ever would I want that..But there are plenty of winning programs that don't have to cheat to win, Marquette has proven they can be one of those, I just want to get back to those days. The sooner the better.
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Hey, at least we ain't Pitt..,
https://www.yahoo.com/sports/pitt-played-one-worst-halves-basketball-ever-230616959.html
7 points in a half? Geez. The worst part about that article was this though:
"I’ll have you know, that was only the third-worst half of basketball in Pitt history.
Scored 2 points vs. Penn State on 1906 and NONE at Penn State in 1950"
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I also NEVER want to see MU have a headline like Arizona received today. Winning that way isn't worth it. Assuming that headline was about Marquette, would you be OK with that as the price for a winning program?
I'm happy we're not in the news for that kind of thing also, but at the same time, would you stop rooting for the team if we were? Would you stop watching or going to games? I know I wouldn't. And I bet most Arizona fans wont' either. It's embarrassing, but it's not Penn Sate or Michigan State level bad. It's cheating, sure, but it's not ugly or abusive. I'd be embarrassed to wear Sparty gear in public after this year. Arizona, not so much.
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Wojo will not be fired. The bromance with Lovell is stronger than ever. The BOT loves that they have a Duke guy. Scholl is smart enough to know that the real AD at Marquette is and always has been the head basketball coach. So no constituency for change.
The only way Wojo goes, is if there is a Power 5 football school that has a basketball opening and a deep pocketed donor who will provide the tools of the trade. Absent that Wojo is our coach for the long term.
Looking forward to winning the next two games and then a spirited run in the BET. Season is far from over.
I don’t know where u get ur info from, but the BOT is not in the bag. They like Wojo but they know the natives are restless. You have to be completely ignorant not to recognize that the fan base is disappointed. Jeez the students stayed home in droves against SJU. Wojo does not have a lock on this gig at all. He is back next season but......
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Wojo didn't deserve a 6 year guarantee when he started. He earned it by meeting expectations each season. Year 1, put a team on the court. Year 2, get better. Year 3, make the tourney. Year 4, weather the departures of a bunch of upperclassmen and put together a young and competitive team. You may not like it, but that's what the reasonable expectations were first years 1-4. Wojo has yet to exceed any of them (so your Peter Gibbons reference may end being true) but he has yet to miss any of them.
The game changes in year 5 and year 6. It's not enough to just make the tournament he will be expected to make the tournament comfortably. If he fails next season, it will be the first time he didn't make expectations in a season. I don't think he gets fired the first time he fails. I think he will get one more chance and if he fails again he will be gone.
There actually are other explanations. Wojo inherited a team that was going to have its best players graduate between year 3 and year 4. Unless Wojo decided to run those players off, there was always going to be off between years 3 and year 4. We were old last season, we're young this season, and we'll be old again next season. Part of the natural ebb and flow of college basketball.
Losing out would probably mean no NIT. I don't think we're going to lose out but we could. It would be interesting if an "ideal candidate" became available after year 5. If year 5 is a fail (but not a disaster), I think Wojo still gets one more year. But if some ideal candidate was available and made it known that he would take the job, I wonder if the BOT would act on it.
I appreciate the thoughtful response, but would raise one counter point. Wojo has burned/redshirted all sorts of scholarships in each of his years. We COULD have had the pieces, even without running guys off (although he has done a good job of that too, usually mid-season so as to leave us short handed). You can give 13 kids a full ride, we’ve had 7-9 *real* players for most of Wojo’s tenure. We could have 4 or five experienced juniors on this team, but instead we have one Matt Heldt. With the resources available to Wojo no excuse not to field a *full* team every year - that he hasn’t is a huge failure for him in team-building/recruiting. And everyone talks about next year having a complete team. But we don’t. We’ll have a great 2 and 3, a huge log-jam at 4, a serviceable two-headed 5, but, as of now, NO PG. MAYBE we’ll grab some fantastic transfer but Wojo hasn’t had a great record plugging holes in the off-season (sure Rowdy is a baller, hit we already had an undersized 2, we needed s PG then). Grimes would gave been the piece, but what’s the Plan B?
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Wojo will not be fired. The bromance with Lovell is stronger than ever. The BOT loves that they have a Duke guy. Scholl is smart enough to know that the real AD at Marquette is and always has been the head basketball coach. So no constituency for change.
The only way Wojo goes, is if there is a Power 5 football school that has a basketball opening and a deep pocketed donor who will provide the tools of the trade. Absent that Wojo is our coach for the long term.
Looking forward to winning the next two games and then a spirited run in the BET. Season is far from over.
I don’t know where u get ur info from, but the BOT is not in the bag. They like Wojo but they know the natives are restless. You have to be completely ignorant not to recognize that the fan base is disappointed. Jeez the students stayed home in droves against SJU. Wojo does not have a lock on this gig at all. He is back next season but......
I would not read too much into anything Lovell or MU has to say, official or otherwise, about Wojo. If they are smart people, and I hope they are, the only information that will ever come out will be is that they love Wojo and that he is exceeding all expectations. What could be be gained by saying anything less? They would under mind any hope of him being successful. There should be only a handful of people that really know where Wojo stands. If someone on this board say they are actually hearing that Wojo's seat is getting warm, either that person is lying or MU is being run by idiots.
So does MU love Wojo so much that they would never fire him? Is his job safe regardless of his win/loss record? Logic tells me no. A friend who knows a couple of significant boosters tells me no. But that is far from official inside information.
So, officially MU loves Wojo....... where is the annual automatically renewing contract with the massive buyout to keep him from leaving?
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This is the part that irritates me to no end, people giving Wojo a pass until year 5...I will ask again, why SHOULD it take that long?? How long did it take Cuonzo Martin to take Missouri(one of the worst high major programs for years) back to the NCAA's(and playing without an all american all year I might add), How long did it take Buzz to rebuild Va Tech(he will now be getting his 2nd NCAA berth in 4 years, plus one NIT bid), Chris Holtmann at OSU, in ONE year he has taken a moribound program, and had them competing for the top of the B10 and in the NCAA tournament. Danny Hurley at ASU, how long has it taken him?? Keatts at NC State, will likely make the NCAA's this year(or at least very close to it). I just don't get why Wojo gets such a pass for his first 4 years, and others have demonstrated that they can turn programs around in 1 year. It baffles me.
Here's the thing, I don't care about a coach taking a team of someone else's players to a tourney or two. Any idiot can succeed if handed a great nucleus. I care about sustained success and what they do with their own players.
Cuonzo sucks. He built a one year winner at Cal and left a scrapyard fire behind. Holtmann is solid (proved it at Butler) but Bobby Hurley is still running with Sendek's guys at ASU and the team is taking a crap after a hot start. Let's see what he does when it's his own players. Keatts has done nothing with his own players. Buzz is a good coach but ran out of here with the program in tatters and left it far worse than he found it.
That's why next year matters. Not because I have blind faith in Wojo, but because I don't know if he can build a team and win with it. If next year's team is flirting with the top-25 all year, top-3 in the league, and in the 4-7 seed range with legit second weekend aspirations, then maybe we have something. If not, blow it up and start over.
Most of the guys you listed we have no idea if will work out long term. You would've fired Coach K, Jay Wright, and Al McGuire before they won anything. Maybe Wojo will never get there, but we'll never know if he doesn't get to coach the team he's been building for 4 years.
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FWIW, Homer on Twitter has now started following @FireWojo. It has a whopping nine followers.
Which one of you die-hard Scoopers created a new twitter account recently?
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Here's the thing, I don't care about a coach taking a team of someone else's players to a tourney or two. Any idiot can succeed if handed a great nucleus. I care about sustained success and what they do with their own players.
Cuonzo sucks. He built a one year winner at Cal and left a scrapyard fire behind. Holtmann is solid (proved it at Butler) but Bobby Hurley is still running with Sendek's guys at ASU and the team is taking a crap after a hot start. Let's see what he does when it's his own players. Keatts has done nothing with his own players. Buzz is a good coach but ran out of here with the program in tatters and left it far worse than he found it.
That's why next year matters. Not because I have blind faith in Wojo, but because I don't know if he can build a team and win with it. If next year's team is flirting with the top-25 all year, top-3 in the league, and in the 4-7 seed range with legit second weekend aspirations, then maybe we have something. If not, blow it up and start over.
Most of the guys you listed we have no idea if will work out long term. You would've fired Coach K, Jay Wright, and Al McGuire before they won anything. Maybe Wojo will never get there, but we'll never know if he doesn't get to coach the team he's been building for 4 years.
You are right, sustained success, is the ultimate determiner, but my point is, what do we have to this point, that shows Wojo is capable of that?? I mean in his tenure, he has never even won 3 straight BE games. The signature moment to this point is a win against #1 Villanova...the rest of the 4 years have basically been "meh" at best. His teams are inconsistent at best. Almost ever power 5 team at some point, hits a stretch where they get hot and real off a few or several impressive wins in a row, Wojo's have never done that. Maybe next year is the turn the corner year, and the year after that is the creme de la creme, but it sure would be nice to have some semblance of consistency after 4 years. Sure, next year the BE will lose a lot, and it's MU's time to "shine", but why does it have to be when the rest of the conference is down?? Why can't they be top half competitive when the conference is as strong as it is??
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Next year is the year that proves it. The pieces seem to be in place. If he gets us into that upper echelon, then that's the sign we're looking for. Wojo can't control other rosters, but I feel he should get the chance to show what he can do with his roster when it's old.
Personally, I feel next year is year one of Wojo's "prove it" years. We should be top-3 in the league and in the 4-7 seed range next year. We should be better the year after. And we should be able to sustain success when Sam and Markus graduate. If he does that, we likely have that long term answer. If not, we also have an answer.
I'm not saying he definitely gets three years. I'm saying 2018-19 gives him the chance to earn 2019-20, 2019-20 gives him the chance to earn 2020-21, and 2020-21 gives him the chance to earn long term security.
There will almost certainly be an extension in there if it's going well, but I think firing after any of the next three seasons would be totally justified if we come up short.
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Why wait 2-3-4-5 years??!! Any coach should be fired after their first year if they have not definitively demonstrated that they can achieve sustained success!!!!!
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Buzz left the cupboard bare, nothing. Brought in Carlino, good move. Then brought in Ellenson, good or bad move, depends. Looking now, maybe Henry should have
stayed in school another year. Then again he is making 1.5M or more sitting on the bench for 2 years. Might be out of the league after next year, or get a ridiculous
contract like John Leuer or Miles Plumlee, Delly, Henson, Snell all getting funny money for below average players like Henry. He can go play in Europe in 2 years. Should
Wojo have taken Henry? That is the question? So 2 years were lost, 1 good year, this year after losing JJJ, Katin, Luke, Wilson, tough to lose all that leadership, to now
1 senior. Expected in my book. Even next year there is only 1 senior. He is building classes, needs 2 top 100 kids in 2019 should be his goal.
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Why wait 2-3-4-5 years??!! Any coach should be fired after their first year if they have not definitively demonstrated that they can achieve sustained success!!!!!
Stay away from fire, strawman. Seriously keep believing that coaching isn’t a major problem. Just remember in a must win game against the league’s worst team we got worked.
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Stay away from fire, strawman. Seriously keep believing that coaching isn’t a major problem. Just remember in a must win game against the league’s worst team we got worked.
St John's is the league's worst team and when it was a must win game we won. Now you could say "Just remember in a game we should've won at the league's worst team we got worked" or "just remember in a must win game against the league's second worst team we got worked" but what you said is not correct at this point just fyi
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Why wait 2-3-4-5 years??!! Any coach should be fired after their first year if they have not definitively demonstrated that they can achieve sustained success!!!!!
Haha! Everyone knows you have to wait till the new coach has four full classes ................ after eight years to fairly judge his performance. You know eight years to rebuild, clean out the old guys, work through transfers, grow and learn as a coach and get a system in place, then four classes once his system is set.
And be ready after 12 years if you want to make a change, because every player will leave, every recruit will bail and you will have to massively overpay for a Division 3 coach to come to MU. You've been warned!
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Buzz left the cupboard bare, nothing. Brought in Carlino, good move. Then brought in Ellenson, good or bad move, depends. Looking now, maybe Henry should have
stayed in school another year. Then again he is making 1.5M or more sitting on the bench for 2 years. Might be out of the league after next year, or get a ridiculous
contract like John Leuer or Miles Plumlee, Delly, Henson, Snell all getting funny money for below average players like Henry. He can go play in Europe in 2 years. Should
Wojo have taken Henry? That is the question? So 2 years were lost, 1 good year, this year after losing JJJ, Katin, Luke, Wilson, tough to lose all that leadership, to now
1 senior. Expected in my book. Even next year there is only 1 senior. He is building classes, needs 2 top 100 kids in 2019 should be his goal.
Good point about Henry. It was short-term gain but at a long term cost since he bailed after 1 year (to his long term detriment IMHO). This whole Board was in agreement that Wojo HAD to take him once he expressed interest in MU but there was a long term cost to that in using up schollies on him and his brother as well as losing recruits that may have come here but we either moved on from or they moved on from us once Henry committed. This whole Board was sky high once Henry committed, but I can tell you that as soon as we missed the tourney his one year here and left for the NBA, well, it was pretty deflating. I certainly felt that the long term return did not meet even minimal expected ROI. That's another reason why I'm not going to let one loss to DePaul or a frustrating season like this overly sway me on Wojo. Long term, I think he is positioning us well for sustained success.
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Here's the thing, I don't care about a coach taking a team of someone else's players to a tourney or two. Any idiot can succeed if handed a great nucleus. I care about sustained success and what they do with their own players.
Cuonzo sucks. He built a one year winner at Cal and left a scrapyard fire behind. Holtmann is solid (proved it at Butler) but Bobby Hurley is still running with Sendek's guys at ASU and the team is taking a crap after a hot start. Let's see what he does when it's his own players. Keatts has done nothing with his own players. Buzz is a good coach but ran out of here with the program in tatters and left it far worse than he found it.
That's why next year matters. Not because I have blind faith in Wojo, but because I don't know if he can build a team and win with it. If next year's team is flirting with the top-25 all year, top-3 in the league, and in the 4-7 seed range with legit second weekend aspirations, then maybe we have something. If not, blow it up and start over.
Most of the guys you listed we have no idea if will work out long term. You would've fired Coach K, Jay Wright, and Al McGuire before they won anything. Maybe Wojo will never get there, but we'll never know if he doesn't get to coach the team he's been building for 4 years.
I think you summarized the pro-Wojo line of thinking very well here. What I wonder, though, is whether think line of thinking was established before Wojo arrived, or if this is something that many people have talked themselves into given our current situation. I assume some held these opinions on what qualifies as legitimate success for a coach all along, but I have a strong feeling that a good portion of the #respecttheprocess crew have backed into their criteria for success.
The thing that makes me the most confused and even frustrated at times is the number of coaches that posters here criticize or downplay in some kind of attempt to make Wojo look better. Downplaying other coaches' success as just being the result of more fortunate circumstances than we have dealt with doesn't improve our record or our shot at making the tournament. I guess judging a coach's ability is usually a relative comparison, but I find most of the criticism of other coaches to be awfully hypocritical.
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St John's is the league's worst team and when it was a must win game we won. Now you could say "Just remember in a game we should've won at the league's worst team we got worked" or "just remember in a must win game against the league's second worst team we got worked" but what you said is not correct at this point just fyi
DePaul vs St Johns head to head you’re going DePaul? It’s probably splitting hairs but I think DePaul is definitely the worst team in the conference
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I think you summarized the pro-Wojo line of thinking very well here. What I wonder, though, is whether think line of thinking was established before Wojo arrived, or if this is something that many people have talked themselves into given our current situation. I assume some held these opinions on what qualifies as legitimate success for a coach all along, but I have a strong feeling that a good portion of the #respecttheprocess crew have backed into their criteria for success.
Five years ago, I would have expected more success earlier. But I see improvement and understand what he is trying to build. I think he deserves next year to show off what he has developed.
I also get frustrated at the “blame Wojo” crowd every time they lose a game. It’s really ridiculous.
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I think you summarized the pro-Wojo line of thinking very well here. What I wonder, though, is whether think line of thinking was established before Wojo arrived, or if this is something that many people have talked themselves into given our current situation. I assume some held these opinions on what qualifies as legitimate success for a coach all along, but I have a strong feeling that a good portion of the #respecttheprocess crew have backed into their criteria for success.
The thing that makes me the most confused and even frustrated at times is the number of coaches that posters here criticize or downplay in some kind of attempt to make Wojo look better. Downplaying other coaches' success as just being the result of more fortunate circumstances than we have dealt with doesn't improve our record or our shot at making the tournament. I guess judging a coach's ability is usually a relative comparison, but I find most of the criticism of other coaches to be awfully hypocritical.
I was pro Cuonzo before Wojo was hired. After watching what he did to Cal, that easily could've been us. I don't think I'm belittling Keatts or Hurley, but the jury is still out. Let's see where they are in 2-4 years before we declare them more successful than Wojo. As far as Buzz, he's the most fair comp. Currently he's ahead, but will he sustain and will he stay at that job would be my two questions.
I have some serious issues with Wojo. The defense is infuriating. Going back to Howard & Rowsey was maddening. Every year we seem to have 2-3 inexplicable losses. But I do feel next year is what he's been building towards. He didn't inherit what Buzz did at Marquette, so it's hard to have equivalent expectations.
If we're here again next year (on the bubble) I can't see any rationale for not looking at options. Even if there are injuries or roster issues, that's on him because that will be the roster he constructed. 5 years to judge has been a staple of this board for as long as I've been here. I think it's fair to give Wojo that same staple.
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I was pro Cuonzo before Wojo was hired. After watching what he did to Cal, that easily could've been us. I don't think I'm belittling Keatts or Hurley, but the jury is still out. Let's see where they are in 2-4 years before we declare them more successful than Wojo. As far as Buzz, he's the most fair comp. Currently he's ahead, but will he sustain and will he stay at that job would be my two questions.
I have some serious issues with Wojo. The defense is infuriating. Going back to Howard & Rowsey was maddening. Every year we seem to have 2-3 inexplicable losses. But I do feel next year is what he's been building towards. He didn't inherit what Buzz did at Marquette, so it's hard to have equivalent expectations.
If we're here again next year (on the bubble) I can't see any rationale for not looking at options. Even if there are injuries or roster issues, that's on him because that will be the roster he constructed. 5 years to judge has been a staple of this board for as long as I've been here. I think it's fair to give Wojo that same staple.
In the same boat.
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What I wonder about Wojo, is does he ever "converse" with his circle of Coaching buddies, to look for some ideas/help to fix things, especially defensively?? I mean, yeah Coach K has his own team to Coach, but I'm pretty certain if Wojo called him asking for advice, he'd be more than happy to give it. Now, that doesn't mean it will 100% work, but sometimes an outside perspective is a refreshing tool to use. Buzz used to do it all the time. You can't be so stubborn, that especially as a young Coach, you can't lean on others outside your circle to look for tips, suggestions, ideas etc.
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DePaul vs St Johns head to head you’re going DePaul? It’s probably splitting hairs but I think DePaul is definitely the worst team in the conference
SJU is in last place.
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SJU is in last place.
They also beat Duke and Villanova.
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In the same boat.
I think most fans are in this boat. Curious what you feel a successful 18-19 season looks like? 11 BE wins? 8 seed or better?
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I think most fans are in this boat. Curious what you feel a successful 18-19 season looks like? 11 BE wins? 8 seed or better?
See my sig.
4th place in BE. Around a 5 seed in the NCAA.
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SJU is in last place.
So gun to head you’re taking DePaul over St Johns on a neutral floor right?
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I think most fans are in this boat. Curious what you feel a successful 18-19 season looks like? 11 BE wins? 8 seed or better?
My hopes would be 20+ regular season wins, 11-12 of those in league play with a 3rd place or better finish, and a safe NCAA seed (4-7) is my baseline. Now if we're 20-11 (10-8) and an 8 seed, that's okay, but it certainly isn't "give the man an extension" territory.
Honestly, we should be good enough that we're regularly receiving votes and never feel like a NCAA bid is in doubt.
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They also beat Duke and Villanova.
So? They're in last place. The numbers show SJU is the worst team in the conference at this point
So gun to head you’re taking DePaul over St Johns on a neutral floor right?
I would take SJU but that would be subjective. Objectively SJU is in 10th thus they are the worst team in the conference.
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So? They're in last place. The numbers show SJU is the worst team in the conference at this point
I would take SJU but that would be subjective. Objectively SJU is in 10th thus they are the worst team in the conference.
See, I agree with you. I don't like the "But X team beat Y team!" argument as an excuse to losing to bottom of the barrel BE teams. A few wins does not determine whether or not a team is good, in my opinion. Looking at their total body of work, DePaul and St.Johns are both bad teams.
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I just don't get it.
There are some guys on here who just last week said we are back! And are now complaining.
Having said that, how many TRULY thought this was an NCAA year?
We lost 3 seniors that were starters (for the most part) and were a significant part of your scoring.
We added 4 freshmen and a guy from Australia who has not lived up.
I legitimately (and many others did also) felt/knew this was a minor step back year and likely NIT year.
Also how many people here said :
This years team will be infuriating. Win some we shouldn't, lose some we shouldn't. (Exactly what we've done. Lost to DePaul, stjohns, and Georgia)
Beat: SHU twice, creigthon.
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I've never been in the "Fire Wojo" camp, but was really disappointed in how he handled yesterday's game. We have no-doubt, surefire evidence that when you play Howard/Rowsey together that bad things just happen. No need to expound on defense as that has been hammered home ad nauseum. On offense, the ball movement and cutting you saw against Creighton and SJU never happens, because you have 2/3 guys standing in place watching one of the two go ISO or run the pick and pop with Sam for the 10th time in a half. Elliot and Cain being no shows yesterday after awesome outings the last two didn't surprise me in the slightest simply because of Howard and Rowsey's presence together out there. And yet, when we went cold from 3 (seriously, how do NONE of those open attempts fall?) to start the second half and things got a little tight, Wojo panicked and brought them back together. I know our defense was actually not half bad yesterday but DePaul shot 18% from deep, why not go zone early and more often and save ourselves from getting EVERYONE in foul trouble and simultaneously from giving up 20 offensive boards?
All this to say, it's concerning that Wojo refuses to adapt to things we see are working for this team. And more concerning that in an absolute must-win, where the opposing garbage team has nothing to play for, in at worst a neutral court game, we come out flat for the majority of both halves. It's getting to the point where I just don't trust Wojo as a reliable in-game coach, and as sad as it sounds my highest hope for him is to be a poor man's John Calipari: in that he can bring in a ton of talent (a substantial tier below Cal's level of talent mind you), and we'll have to hope the talent he brings in will be able to overcome and mask his deficiencies as a coach.
As TAMU and others have stated all year, it's all building to next year. We'll have 6 upperclassmen, 3 sophomores who have all played a ton of minutes, and the biggest recruit Wojo has brought in to date. We will be absolutely loaded with experienced talent while the rest of the league will seemingly be taking a step back, and until then I can't be out on him. As much as I would love to see what a Steve Forbes, Danny Hurley, etc. could do with this collection of players, Wojo will likely be given a leash the length of Sam and Markus' MU careers.
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I've never been in the "Fire Wojo" camp, but was really disappointed in how he handled yesterday's game. We have no-doubt, surefire evidence that when you play Howard/Rowsey together that bad things just happen.
We also have no-doubt, surefire evidence that when you play Howard/Rowsey together that good things happen.
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I've never been in the "Fire Wojo" camp, but was really disappointed in how he handled yesterday's game. We have no-doubt, surefire evidence that when you play Howard/Rowsey together that bad things just happen. No need to expound on defense as that has been hammered home ad nauseum. On offense, the ball movement and cutting you saw against Creighton and SJU never happens, because you have 2/3 guys standing in place watching one of the two go ISO or run the pick and pop with Sam for the 10th time in a half. Elliot and Cain being no shows yesterday after awesome outings the last two didn't surprise me in the slightest simply because of Howard and Rowsey's presence together out there. And yet, when we went cold from 3 (seriously, how do NONE of those open attempts fall?) to start the second half and things got a little tight, Wojo panicked and brought them back together. I know our defense was actually not half bad yesterday but DePaul shot 18% from deep, why not go zone early and more often and save ourselves from getting EVERYONE in foul trouble and simultaneously from giving up 20 offensive boards?
All this to say, it's concerning that Wojo refuses to adapt to things we see are working for this team. And more concerning that in an absolute must-win, where the opposing garbage team has nothing to play for, in at worst a neutral court game, we come out flat for the majority of both halves. It's getting to the point where I just don't trust Wojo as a reliable in-game coach, and as sad as it sounds my highest hope for him is to be a poor man's John Calipari: in that he can bring in a ton of talent (a substantial tier below Cal's level of talent mind you), and we'll have to hope the talent he brings in will be able to overcome and mask his deficiencies as a coach.
As TAMU and others have stated all year, it's all building to next year. We'll have 6 upperclassmen, 3 sophomores who have all played a ton of minutes, and the biggest recruit Wojo has brought in to date. We will be absolutely loaded with experienced talent while the rest of the league will seemingly be taking a step back, and until then I can't be out on him. As much as I would love to see what a Steve Forbes, Danny Hurley, etc. could do with this collection of players, Wojo will likely be given a leash the length of Sam and Markus' MU careers.
Do we not also have no doubt, sure fire evidence that playing them together also has led to good things too? Didn't we just beat Depaul handily with those two playing together? Did we not take Villanova down to the wire (under 30 seconds) with those two playing together? Wins over LSU, Providence, Seton Hall (2), Wisconsin, Vermont, with those two playing together?
Maybe it is just me, but it seems when we beat teams with those two playing together people are quiet. When we lose with those two playing together it is because those two played together?
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I just don't get it.
There are some guys on here who just last week said we are back! And are now complaining.
Having said that, how many TRULY thought this was an NCAA year?
We lost 3 seniors that were starters (for the most part) and were a significant part of your scoring.
We added 4 freshmen and a guy from Australia who has not lived up.
I legitimately (and many others did also) felt/knew this was a minor step back year and likely NIT year.
Also how many people here said :
This years team will be infuriating. Win some we shouldn't, lose some we shouldn't. (Exactly what we've done. Lost to DePaul, stjohns, and Georgia)
Beat: SHU twice, creigthon.
We're ending up where a lot of fans thought we would be if you had asked them before the season began. Once we started playing, though, a lot of people changed their opinions and raised their expectations. A few games into conference play, it was realistic to expect this team to make the tournament. Heck, 2 weeks ago, a lot of us were still pretty confident we'd be dancing.
The back half of conference play, specifically the last 2-3 weeks, have been disappointing, and we've trended in the wrong direction. We played our way back down to pre-season expectations lately, and that's been painful to watch.
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Why? There's has about the record I thought they would and that prediction was with Haanif. I started a thread saying that the expectations for the season should change.
We've trended downward as other teams figured out our limited options. Sometimes the frosh stepped up, sometimes they fell down trying to dribble. Wojo only has so many arrows in the quiver. See the SOTG list. If you were coaching against Marquette, wouldn't you do whatever you can to stop the 3 shooters and dare the other 6 to beat you?
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What turned last season around to get us into the NCAA Tournament? What was the roster move?
Oh yeah, it was inserting Rowsey into the starting lineup, joining...you guessed it, Markus.
We saw a half of very good basketball without Howard in the lineup and then we saw a game against the worst team in the Big East without Howard in the lineup. I'm not sure you can conclude without any doubt that we are a better team when our 2 best offensive players average 20 minutes a piece.
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Do we not also have no doubt, sure fire evidence that playing them together also has led to good things too? Didn't we just beat Depaul handily with those two playing together? Did we not take Villanova down to the wire (under 30 seconds) with those two playing together? Wins over LSU, Providence, Seton Hall (2), Wisconsin, Vermont, with those two playing together?
Maybe it is just me, but it seems when we beat teams with those two playing together people are quiet. When we lose with those two playing together it is because those two played together?
Distinctive timing. Most of those wins in the earlier part of the season. Other teams made adjustments to us playing two midgets. We made no adjustments (except when forced to by injury).
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The line up adjustments were freshmen.
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We also have no-doubt, surefire evidence that when you play Howard/Rowsey together that good things happen.
I'll go with recency. We have exactly 1 win in the last 11 games when both Andrew and Markus play over 20. Markus played 20 minutes in the first DePaul game. Furthermore I don't exactly count wins over Wisconsin, LSU and Vermont in November/early December as the holy grail of proof. None of those teams are even Top 50.
We have plenty of proof we get slaughtered in FTA yielded every game in M2M defense. Oddly our FT's yielded went down by nearly 50% against Creighton and St. John's. (Zone). Additionally we seem to rebound better out of a zone.
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I'll go with recency. We have exactly 1 win in the last 11 games when both Andrew and Markus play over 20. Markus played 20 minutes in the first DePaul game. Furthermore I don't exactly count wins over Wisconsin, LSU and Vermont in November/early December as the holy grail of proof. None of those teams are even Top 50.
We have plenty of proof we get slaughtered in FTA yielded every game in M2M defense. Oddly our FT's yielded went down by nearly 50% against Creighton and St. John's. (Zone). Additionally we seem to rebound better out of a zone.
It seems painfully obvious that our zone D has provided good outcomes. What is it that the coaching staff is seeing that we aren't that would lead them away from zone? Are they so focused on offensive output that defensive improvements take a backseat? As a fan, it's frustrating, to say the least. It just doesn't make sense.
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It seems painfully obvious that our zone D has provided good outcomes. What is it that the coaching staff is seeing that we aren't that would lead them away from zone? Are they so focused on offensive output that defensive improvements take a backseat? As a fan, it's frustrating, to say the least. It just doesn't make sense.
To date, Creighton is the only game where our zone defense was statistically more effective than the M2M. The harder question to answer is how the zone impacts the offense and rebounding. Conventional basketball wisdom says it should hurt us in those areas...but our two game sample says the opposite. Do we actually rebound better out of the zone? Or did we have two games where we rebounded out of our minds and the zone had nothing to do with it? I don't know. Conventional basketball wisdom isn't always right.
The midgets not playing together I'm on board with. We have a lot of data that says they are better apart this season
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To date, Creighton is the only game where our zone defense was statistically more effective than the M2M. The harder question to answer is how the zone impacts the offense and rebounding. Conventional basketball wisdom says it should hurt us in those areas...but our two game sample says the opposite. Do we actually rebound better out of the zone? Or did we have two games where we rebounded out of our minds and the zone had nothing to do with it? I don't know. Conventional basketball wisdom isn't always right.
The midgets not playing together I'm on board with. We have a lot of data that says they are better apart this season
Wojo has gone exclusively zone in exactly 1 half of basketball this year - against Creighton in the second half and we yielded .94ppp.
What isn’t up to any speculation is we are a fouling machine in M2M defense which isn’t any surprise as we are outsized and outatleticed at every position other than perhaps Sacar and Theo (woh only gets like 8 minutes per game.). Zone hides all those warts and it is also why we rebound better out of a zone.
Ever figure out what our ppp is in Big East play prior to Creighton game?
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Wojo has gone exclusively zone in exactly 1 half of basketball this year - against Creighton in the second half and we yielded .94ppp.
What isn’t up to any speculation is we are a fouling machine in M2M defense which isn’t any surprise as we are outsized and outatleticed at every position other than perhaps Sacar and Theo (woh only gets like 8 minutes per game.). Zone hides all those warts and it is also why we rebound better out of a zone.
Ever figure out what our ppp is in Big East play prior to Creighton game?
The bolded is the biggest reason I think we need to go with one midget and zone for the remainder of the year. I don't care about the points per possession so much, since it seems to be pretty equal Man vs. Zone. I do care about the free throw rate. Our offense is best when we can push the ball off of missed shots. Finding open shooters before the defense fully sets itself or there are mismatches. I'll admit this is eye test, but it seems that our offense is much worse when we put the other team on the line.
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Wojo has gone exclusively zone in exactly 1 half of basketball this year - against Creighton in the second half and we yielded .94ppp.
What isn’t up to any speculation is we are a fouling machine in M2M defense which isn’t any surprise as we are outsized and outatleticed at every position other than perhaps Sacar and Theo (woh only gets like 8 minutes per game.). Zone hides all those warts and it is also why we rebound better out of a zone.
Ever figure out what our ppp is in Big East play prior to Creighton game?
I think most here would agree that there have been times where our zone has looked good. There have also been times our zone has looked bad. Most also think that we should be seeing more zone. I have a problem with comments suggesting that we should play zone 100% of the time, no matter the personnel, or situation. We should be playing more zone, and we should be playing Markus and Andrew together less frequently, but there is no answer on D that works 100% of the time. As bad as our mtm has looked at times, there have also been times where it has looked not terrible, which is a considerable improvement for this team.
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Want to discuss zone vs m2m as it relates to MU's success? Fine.
Want to discuss playing the midgets apart as it relates to MU's success? Fine.
Want to discuss how defense (m2m, zone, midgets, whatever) was the reason we lost to depaul? No.
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Want to discuss zone vs m2m as it relates to MU's success? Fine.
Want to discuss playing the midgets apart as it relates to MU's success? Fine.
Want to discuss how defense (m2m, zone, midgets, whatever) was the reason we lost to depaul? No.
It's been pointed out, but you don't think there were things we could have done differently on defense to improve our rebounding numbers and/or reduce the number of fouls committed? We did a nice job of limiting their fg% but we struggles in other defensive areas. In any loss, there will always be things that could have been done better. Defense in the Depaul game could have been better in some aspects.
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FWIW, playing M2M is also more tiring than playing zone. This fatigue could affect the way players perform on the offensive end.
The "fatigue effect" of M2M is certainly there, but I wonder how much of a factor it actually is.
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It's been pointed out, but you don't think there were things we could have done differently on defense to improve our rebounding numbers and/or reduce the number of fouls committed? We did a nice job of limiting their fg% but we struggles in other defensive areas. In any loss, there will always be things that could have been done better. Defense in the Depaul game could have been better in some aspects.
Minus the late game fouling, we let them score 60ish. That's with the FT/fouls and offensive rebounds.
If we play an average offensive game, foul the same rate and give up the same offensive rebounds, we win this easily.
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FWIW, playing M2M is also more tiring than playing zone. This fatigue could affect the way players perform on the offensive end.
The "fatigue effect" of M2M is certainly there, but I wonder how much of a factor it actually is.
Also very true and to expect Sam Hauser to play 40 minutes against guys who are equally his size, likely a slight bit more athletic strong, is NOT good coaching.
Rowsey and Howard chasing guys through ball screens is also taxing. End of the day, when you are at a disadvantage physically, zone is a much better approach.
Furthermore much harder to score in transition off of missed FTs, much less makes.
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Minus the late game fouling, we let them score 60ish. That's with the FT/fouls and offensive rebounds.
If we play an average offensive game, foul the same rate and give up the same offensive rebounds, we win this easily.
Yeah, but we did outshoot them from 2, 3, and won the eFG% battle. If we give up fewer second, third, and fourth chances and don't send them to the line constantly, we also win easily.
It was a combination of things. If the offense is scoring at normal levels, we win. If we don't hack them to death while letting them get multiple chances on seemingly every possession, we win. If we do both, we blow them out.
Instead, we did neither.
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Yeah, but we did outshoot them from 2, 3, and won the eFG% battle. If we give up fewer second, third, and fourth chances and don't send them to the line constantly, we also win easily.
It was a combination of things. If the offense is scoring at normal levels, we win. If we don't hack them to death while letting them get multiple chances on seemingly every possession, we win. If we do both, we blow them out.
Instead, we did neither.
Yup. But not quite matching our season averages, I don't believe.
Again, defense has been the problem all year. It was better than average against Depaul. Agreed, we could have won by limiting offensive rebounds and FTs. But, considering the state of our defense this year, we would have had to extremely outperform our defense this season.
Our more likely path to winning was just play average offensively, rather than like superheroes on defense.
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Our more likely path to winning was just play average offensively, rather than like superheroes on defense.
Not superheroes, just playing to our averages.
Limiting Free Throws
DePaul scored 23 points on 32 free throws, a 71.4% conversion rate. The 32 free throws on 59 shots was a 54.2% FTA/FGA ratio. We normally allow 38.6%. On a normal night, we would've allowed 16 points on 23 free throws. Had we limited free throws to the normal amount, we could expect a 7-point swing.
Limiting Offensive Rebounds
DePaul grabbed 19 offensive rebounds, which was 44.2% of the misses. We normally allow 28.6%, which would have equated to 12 offensive rebounds. They scored 0.97 ppp, so on 7 extra possessions we could expect another 7-point swing.
If we play to our averages in terms of free throw ratio and limiting offensive rebounds, the numbers would indicate a 14-point swing, more than enough to decide the game.
Offensive eFG%
On offense, we shot an eFG% of 47.5%, down from our usual 56.2%. We scored 56 points on field goals, had we hit our usual eFG% it would've been 66 points. That 10-point swing also would have been more than enough to decide the game.
Back to my original quote:
It was a combination of things. If the offense is scoring at normal levels, we win. If we don't hack them to death while letting them get multiple chances on seemingly every possession, we win. If we do both, we blow them out.
If we play an average offensive game, we win by 2. If we are average in terms of free throws and offensive rebounds, we win by 6. If we play average in all of those facets, we win by 16. It wasn't only the defense, but it certainly wasn't only the offense either.
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Not superheroes, just playing to our averages.
Limiting Free Throws
DePaul scored 23 points on 32 free throws, a 71.4% conversion rate. The 32 free throws on 59 shots was a 54.2% FTA/FGA ratio. We normally allow 38.6%. On a normal night, we would've allowed 16 points on 23 free throws. Had we limited free throws to the normal amount, we could expect a 7-point swing.
Limiting Offensive Rebounds
DePaul grabbed 19 offensive rebounds, which was 44.2% of the misses. We normally allow 28.6%, which would have equated to 12 offensive rebounds. They scored 0.97 ppp, so on 7 extra possessions we could expect another 7-point swing.
If we play to our averages in terms of free throw ratio and limiting offensive rebounds, the numbers would indicate a 14-point swing, more than enough to decide the game.
Offensive eFG%
On offense, we shot an eFG% of 47.5%, down from our usual 56.2%. We scored 56 points on field goals, had we hit our usual eFG% it would've been 66 points. That 10-point swing also would have been more than enough to decide the game.
Back to my original quote:
If we play an average offensive game, we win by 2. If we are average in terms of free throws and offensive rebounds, we win by 6. If we play average in all of those facets, we win by 16. It wasn't only the defense, but it certainly wasn't only the offense either.
Right. I accept our defense stinks. Need our offense to be good all year long (which it hasn't). Also, isolating the free throws and offensive rebounds tends to make me believe that the rest of the defensive metrics would indicate we played an overall good (for our team) defensive game. Again, if you incorporate free throws and offensive rebounds into the total defensive metrics, we would have had to play above our average in all facets on that end of the court.
Thanks for the stats. Good to see the breakdown
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Right. I accept our defense stinks. Need our offense to be good all year long (which it hasn't). Also, isolating the free throws and offensive rebounds tends to make me believe that the rest of the defensive metrics would indicate we played an overall good (for our team) defensive game. Again, if you incorporate free throws and offensive rebounds into the total defensive metrics, we would have had to play above our average in all facets on that end of the court.
Thanks for the stats. Good to see the breakdown
You'd sure think it would be an easy task to play better than average against one of the worst teams on our schedule, though. I don't see that as expecting too much.
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You'd sure think it would be an easy task to play better than average against one of the worst teams on our schedule, though. I don't see that as expecting too much.
Did you watch the EIU game? This team was/is capable of anything
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Not superheroes, just playing to our averages.
Limiting Free Throws
DePaul scored 23 points on 32 free throws, a 71.4% conversion rate. The 32 free throws on 59 shots was a 54.2% FTA/FGA ratio. We normally allow 38.6%. On a normal night, we would've allowed 16 points on 23 free throws. Had we limited free throws to the normal amount, we could expect a 7-point swing.
Limiting Offensive Rebounds
DePaul grabbed 19 offensive rebounds, which was 44.2% of the misses. We normally allow 28.6%, which would have equated to 12 offensive rebounds. They scored 0.97 ppp, so on 7 extra possessions we could expect another 7-point swing.
If we play to our averages in terms of free throw ratio and limiting offensive rebounds, the numbers would indicate a 14-point swing, more than enough to decide the game.
Offensive eFG%
On offense, we shot an eFG% of 47.5%, down from our usual 56.2%. We scored 56 points on field goals, had we hit our usual eFG% it would've been 66 points. That 10-point swing also would have been more than enough to decide the game.
Back to my original quote:
If we play an average offensive game, we win by 2. If we are average in terms of free throws and offensive rebounds, we win by 6. If we play average in all of those facets, we win by 16. It wasn't only the defense, but it certainly wasn't only the offense either.
Good analysis Brew. Well done.
Food for thought: We are 10th in the conference in overall defense, and 10th in conference in FTR allowed (by a pretty wide margin.) Defending without fouling has been a MAJOR problem for our team all year long. Much less propensity to foul out of a zone defense. This simple adjustment alone would yield us better chances of winning (cutting way back on fouls/FTs yielded)
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Food for thought: We are 10th in the conference in overall defense, and 10th in conference in FTR allowed (by a pretty wide margin.) Defending without fouling has been a MAJOR problem for our team all year long. Much less propensity to foul out of a zone defense. This simple adjustment alone would yield us better chances of winning (cutting way back on fouls/FTs yielded)
I think zone can help, but I don't think it's a cure-all. The biggest problem is the Howard/Rowsey combination. They can't play zone together because it's too easy to shoot or pass over them.
Zone worked against Creighton, but there are a lot of good three-point shooting teams in this league. I think that Creighton was an outlier because they didn't expect it. I do think it would've helped more to stick with it against DePaul, though they did better against it than the Johnnies did.
Ideally, I think having M2M as our base defense with zone available to mix in at times is the best formula, but the most important factor in my mind is minimizing how often Howard and Rowsey are on the court together. They never seem to get hot offensively at the same time, so we may as well make defense a priority.
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I think zone could potentially help tonight, but we'd probably have to shade it towards Derrickson.
Could keep Govan out of the post and Georgetown turns the ball over a lot.