What's the word on Garcia?

[Pakuni]

Wojo was able to "retain" Duane, Deonte, Magic, Teve, JJJ, Todd, Luke, Derrick, Juan, and Sandy. Of those, four soon transferred anyway. Duane and Luke already had burned a red shirt year so they were restricted on movement, and Derrick and Juan were seniors so why transfer?

Of those Buzz recruits, maybe only JJJ fit Wojo's system. Two of those players went on to the NBA. Yet, Marquette had its first losing season since 1988-89.

Shaka has his players in and they have been practicing together for weeks. Frankly, Garcia's abilities and athleticism are not a perfect fit for Shaka's system. Dawson found a program which does and one that will him better achieve his NBA dream, just like Burton did.

Frankly, the cupboard left Shaka is much barer than the one left Wojo. However, Shaka wisely got his guys in, and won't be wasting a few years with uneven roster composition like Wojo did. Having NBA talent on the roster is no assurance of a winning record if mismatched to the system, as we learned in the past.

Justin Lewis, your table is ready.

I appreciate you doing your best to rationalize losing the team's two best players, but what happened with Wojo seven years ago is wholly irrelevant here.
I could use that same flawed logic to argue that retaining Garcia and Carton was a must, because Buzz retained DJ, Jerel, Wes and Lazar and ended up with a team in the Top 10 (pre-DJ injury). That too would be irrelevant, though.

Could you explain how having Dawson and Carton for just one more year creates an "uneven roster" in a way that bringing in one-year players like Morsell and Kuath doesn't? Or how having them take minutes from longer-term/developiing players is bad, but giving those minutes to Morsell and Kuath is good?
You can't honestly make the long-term development argument while bringing in grad transfers to take minutes from younger players. (And note, Shaka is still going after more of those guys, i.e. Cedric Russell).

You lose us on the whole "Shaka's system" thing when you talk about Lewis' table being ready, who seems a far worse fit for what you think is Shaka's system than more skilled and athletic players like Garcia or Carton.

[Pakuni]

I think the only thought is that it gives more playing time for players who will have a larger impact two or three years down the line.  But again, that always looks better on paper than it does reality IMO.

If your goal is developing the young guys, why bring in Morsell and Kuath, and go after guys like Cedric Russell?

[lawdog77]

If your goal is developing the young guys, why bring in Morsell and Kuath, and go after guys like Cedric Russell?

Not my fight, but one could argue we wouldn't have Morsell if Carton were here, so my question to all is; who would you rather have for a year, Carton or Morsell?

[Pakuni]

Not my fight, but one could argue we wouldn't have Morsell if Carton were here, so my question to all is; who would you rather have for a year, Carton or Morsell?

Good question. Not sure. Very different players who bring different things to the table. Theyd probably fit well together, tbh.
But that's besides the point. We're being told that losing Carton is a good thing, because he'd be here for just one year and take minutes away from younger players. But if that's true, why bring in Morsell, who will be here for just one year and take minutes away from younger players?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

And I agree with Blackheart as well.

Having Dawson and Carton gone most definitely hurts the team, BUT only if Dawson and Carton were committed to what Shaka was doing.  If they weren't, then its better that they did leave.

This is the most correct thing that I've seen posted in this discussion.

If your goal is developing the young guys, why bring in Morsell and Kuath, and go after guys like Cedric Russell?

I'm certainly not in the "losing Carton/Garcia is a positive" camp, but the reason Morsell and Kuath were targeted was because they already play defense at the level Shaka wants from all of his players, and they have the leadership skills to convey that to the younger players in order to help develop them. Carton/Garcia did not have those things. Now that doesn't mean we're better off without them, I'm just addressing this specific question.

[Dr. Blackheart]

I appreciate you doing your best to rationalize losing the team's two best players, but what happened with Wojo seven years ago is wholly irrelevant here.
I could use that same flawed logic to argue that retaining Garcia and Carton was a must, because Buzz retained DJ, Jerel, Wes and Lazar and ended up with a team in the Top 10 (pre-DJ injury). That too would be irrelevant, though.

Could you explain how having Dawson and Carton for just one more year creates an "uneven roster" in a way that bringing in one-year players like Morsell and Kuath doesn't? Or how having them take minutes from longer-term/developiing players is bad, but giving those minutes to Morsell and Kuath is good?
You can't honestly make the long-term development argument while bringing in grad transfers to take minutes from younger players. (And note, Shaka is still going after more of those guys, i.e. Cedric Russell).

You lose us on the whole "Shaka's system" thing when you talk about Lewis' table being ready, who seems a far worse fit for what you think is Shaka's system than more skilled and athletic players like Garcia or Carton.

Per usual, your take is wrong. I made no such argument about grad transfers or development. I made the argument about roster fit for the system: Get to it now.

Scoop was on me for years about the same argument I made about Wojo. I was told by the Scoop Intelligencia that it takes "five (or seven) years to judge. Thanks now for coming around to my side.

As to the Buzz argument, he was an assistant here and he had a strong hand with the incoming recruiting classes. He also Buzz Cut mismatches like Christopherson and Mbwake. Good players that didn't fit his system.  The world did not end.

Like Burton or Mbwake, losing DJ and Dawson are losses. But, they are not system fits nor are they taking up empty scholarship space like occurred under Wojo or Buzz when Burton and Mbwake late transferred.

As to this silly "culture" or "roster composition" hasn't mattered for years argument, Jay Wright and Tony Bennett are on lines 1 and 2.

[The Lens]

The same people who make Vanilla Soft Serve Ice Cream jokes about Joey are crying in their Jimmy John's that we lost Dawson Garcia. 

I don't get it.

[The Sultan]

For one thing, Dawson is better than Joey.

[The Lens]

For one thing, Dawson is better than Joey.

Dawson was certainly more productive but he was also featured more.  Both are soft players. 

[Pakuni]

Per usual, your take is wrong. I made no such argument about grad transfers or development. I made the argument about roster fit for the system: Get to it now.

Scoop was on me for years about the same argument I made about Wojo. I was told by the Scoop Intelligencia that it takes "five (or seven) years to judge. Thanks now for coming around to my side.

As to the Buzz argument, he was an assistant here and he had a strong hand with the incoming recruiting classes. He also Buzz Cut mismatches like Christopherson and Mbwake. Good players that didn't fit his system.  The world did not end.

Like Burton or Mbwake, losing DJ and Dawson are losses. But, they are not system fits nor are they taking up empty scholarship space like occurred under Wojo or Buzz when Burton and Mbwake late transferred.

As to this silly "culture" or "roster composition" hasn't mattered for years argument, Jay Wright and Tony Bennett are on lines 1 and 2.

The system fit argument loses credibility when you tell us Justin Lewis' table is ready. Justin is outstanding and I'm glad he's still at MU,. but it's hard to see how he fits "Shaka'a system"TM better than DJ or Dawson. Also, there seems to be plenty of evidence that Shaka wanted DJ and Dawson to remain, so apparently he was pretty content with their system fits.
And given that Shaka offered Dawson at Texas - I believe Dawson's first high major offer - doesn't that kind of blow a hole in your system fit theory?
The system fit thing is just rationalizing to make ourselves feel better about losing those kids. It's the same thing Badger fans do every time a recruit chooses a different school. We didn't want him anyway. He didn't fit the system. His parents are awful. He cut couldn't cut it academically. Blah, blah.

Look guys, it's OK to admit that losing Dawson sucks. No need to put lipstick on that pig.

And you'll have to point out where I used the word "culture" or called "roster composition" silly. Knocking down straw men is easy, aina?

[Galway Eagle]

I don't see a way that someone can claim losing Carton and Garcia is anything other than a loss.

If basis is they didn't win together, then Moresell and Kuath haven't either. Only now we're trying to make team chemistry happen that would've already been there.

If basis is they were only around one more year then Moresell and Kuath are too.

If basis is they didn't belong in Shaka's culture then why did Shaka try to recruit them when they were younger? And try again to keep them here?

If basis is they're overrated or soft players then what are the players that couldn't even get off the bench or were behind them? (Greg, Osa, Lewis?)

Bottom line is it's a loss. I hope Shaka can get over the hump but if I'm a betting man I'm betting another ugly ugly season is ahead of us.

[Pakuni]

Dawson was certainly more productive but he was also featured more.  Both are soft players.

Dawson's not soft. He needs to get stronger, but he doesn't play a soft game. In fact, the only reason his lack of strength was so glaring last year is because he tried not to play a soft game.

[The Lens]

Dawson's not soft. He needs to get stronger, but he doesn't play a soft game. In fact, the only reason his lack of strength was so glaring last year is because he tried not to play a soft game.

that's a fair point

[StillAWarrior]

I wouldn't be surprised if that "soft" player gets some all-ACC recognition at the end of next season.

[Avenue Commons]

Dawson's not soft. He needs to get stronger, but he doesn't play a soft game. In fact, the only reason his lack of strength was so glaring last year is because he tried not to play a soft game.

He was also 18 to 19 years old...a teenager. He'll get stronger as he matures plus strength program.

I wish Dawson well. You all should too. He's a kid.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Dawson and DJ are tremendous basketball talents.

We should only want them here if they bought into Shaka's program.

Would they have if they decided to come here? I have no idea.

There's no world where Dawson and DJ leaving is a positive. But I don't necessarily think they are negatives either. I guess I don't view this as Shaka "losing" Garcia and Carton. I don't think they were his to lose. I equate it to when a recruit includes MU in their final list but goes somewhere else. We didn't lose the recruit but it is a missed opportunity. String enough missed opportunities together and you have a problem. But losing two players from the last regime after a coaching change? I'm not too worried.

[Pakuni]

Dawson and DJ are tremendous basketball talents.

We should only want them here if they bought into Shaka's program.

Agreed. But there's no reason to believe they would not have bought into the program. DJ by all appearances was excited about the hire, and I imagine his reasons for leaving weren't at all related to Shaka.

There's no world where Dawson and DJ leaving is a positive. But I don't necessarily think they are negatives either. I guess I don't view this as Shaka "losing" Garcia and Carton. I don't think they were his to lose. I equate it to when a recruit includes MU in their final list but goes somewhere else. We didn't lose the recruit but it is a missed opportunity. String enough missed opportunities together and you have a problem. But losing two players from the last regime after a coaching change? I'm not too worried.

I've said before that failing to retain Dawson (or DJ) will have no impact on how we ultimately judge Shaka's tenure at MU, and that's still true. I'm not criticizing Shaka here. I'm criticizing the argument that we're better off without those guys. We're not, unless you've somehow convinced yourself against all evidence that those two would somehow transform into cancerous malcontents under Shaka's leadership.
As for "losing" recruits, that debate has been had here, with some vehemently insisting that it's a "loss" when a recruit chooses another school.
Right, Lenny?

[Lennys Tap]

Fluffy

Thank you for reading, understanding and explaining my post(s) to Pakuni. I'd rather have him think me an idiot over what I said than what I didn't.

Dr. and Lens

You got Buzz, you got Wojo and you get Shaka. 5-7 years to judge is a cop out.

[MU82]

Dawson and DJ are tremendous basketball talents.

We should only want them here if they bought into Shaka's program.

Would they have if they decided to come here? I have no idea.

There's no world where Dawson and DJ leaving is a positive. But I don't necessarily think they are negatives either. I guess I don't view this as Shaka "losing" Garcia and Carton. I don't think they were his to lose. I equate it to when a recruit includes MU in their final list but goes somewhere else. We didn't lose the recruit but it is a missed opportunity. String enough missed opportunities together and you have a problem. But losing two players from the last regime after a coaching change? I'm not too worried.

Some of the same people who are saying that Dawson and Carton leaving are not "losses" for Shaka argued over and over and over again that every time a recruit chose another school it was a "loss" for Wojo. When Grimes chose Kansas, it was Wojo "losing" Grimes -- as if Grimes was ever Wojo's to lose. But when Garcia, who already was at Marquette, chose UNC instead, it's somehow not Shaka "losing" him. (BTW, I don't put Garcia as a "loss" in Shaka's column; and I certainly don't put Grimes as a "loss" in Wojo's column, or Embiid as a "loss" in Buzz's column.)

The other thing I don't get are the Scoopers who seem to assume that Garcia and Carton wouldn't have improved. "Shaka's a great coach, a great motivator, and a guy who develops players" ... but Garcia and Carton wouldn't have improved under him, leaving the team destined to finish with a losing record again? Really?

TAMU, obviously I only want guys who want to be here. I think if Garcia and Carton had stayed, they would have played hard and well for Shaka. I have faith in Shaka's ability to get that out of his players!

Carton would have been a heck of a defensive player under Shaka. And Shaka clearly wanted Garcia -- I mean, he recruited him for Texas for cripe's sake.

This is all typical Scoop silliness ... a bunch of us arguing about stuff that isn't happening and can't be proven. So gold stars for all of us! But the logical leaps are astounding sometimes.

I'm going with your key line, TAMU:

There's no world where Dawson and DJ leaving is a positive.

[Lennys Tap]

Some of the same people who are saying that Dawson and Carton leaving are not "losses" for Shaka argued over and over and over again that every time a recruit chose another school it was a "loss" for Wojo. When Grimes chose Kansas, it was Wojo "losing" Grimes -- as if Grimes was ever Wojo's to lose. But when Garcia, who already was at Marquette, chose UNC instead, it's somehow not Shaka "losing" him. (BTW, I don't put Garcia as a "loss" in Shaka's column; and I certainly don't put Grimes as a "loss" in Wojo's column, or Embiid as a "loss" in Buzz's column.)

Mike

Whoever said Shaka didn't "lose" Garcia to UNC?? Certainly not me. He opened up his recruitment, Shaka recruited him and he went elsewhere. That's a loss. Period. Whether or not we lost him was never even part of the discussion. How big a loss is what we've been discussing. Some think it's huge. I don't, because I don't think a few wins next year will mean a whole lot. I'd rather the young guys get PT and leadership from tough, hard nosed guys like Morsell.

As for Carton, he went pro. Not to another school. Anyone who would call that a recruiting "loss" doesn't get it.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Some of the same people who are saying that Dawson and Carton leaving are not "losses" for Shaka argued over and over and over again that every time a recruit chose another school it was a "loss" for Wojo. When Grimes chose Kansas, it was Wojo "losing" Grimes -- as if Grimes was ever Wojo's to lose. But when Garcia, who already was at Marquette, chose UNC instead, it's somehow not Shaka "losing" him. (BTW, I don't put Garcia as a "loss" in Shaka's column; and I certainly don't put Grimes as a "loss" in Wojo's column, or Embiid as a "loss" in Buzz's column.)

I think you are conflating my point of view with some others. I think I'm the only one in this thread to bring up the idea of Carton and Garcia not being losses for Shaka. I wasn't trying apply my viewpoint to anyone else's argument, just my own.

TAMU, obviously I only want guys who want to be here. I think if Garcia and Carton had stayed, they would have played hard and well for Shaka. I have faith in Shaka's ability to get that out of his players!

I think we mostly agree but I'll pick this specific nit. I'm of the opinion that if a player commits to a school for the wrong reason, there is often very little that a coach can do to overcome that. That's how we get Hausergates.

[bilsu]

Not my fight, but one could argue we wouldn't have Morsell if Carton were here, so my question to all is; who would you rather have for a year, Carton or Morsell?

I rather have Morsell. The article on him said he plays hard every minute. I do not know for sure why Carton changed his mind about staying, but I can imagine Shaka telling him he was not going to play, if gave the same effort he gave last season. I was disappointed that Garcia left, but I feel the team was better off without Carton.

[MU82]

I think you are conflating my point of view with some others. I think I'm the only one in this thread to bring up the idea of Carton and Garcia not being losses for Shaka. I wasn't trying apply my viewpoint to anyone else's argument, just my own.

I think we mostly agree but I'll pick this specific nit. I'm of the opinion that if a player commits to a school for the wrong reason, there is often very little that a coach can do to overcome that. That's how we get Hausergates.

We agree.

Mike

Whoever said Shaka didn't "lose" Garcia to UNC?? Certainly not me. He opened up his recruitment, Shaka recruited him and he went elsewhere. That's a loss. Period. Whether or not we lost him was never even part of the discussion. How big a loss is what we've been discussing. Some think it's huge. I don't, because I don't think a few wins next year will mean a whole lot. I'd rather the young guys get PT and leadership from tough, hard nosed guys like Morsell.

As for Carton, he went pro. Not to another school. Anyone who would call that a recruiting "loss" doesn't get it.

OK. I'd rather have a shot at the NCAAs this season AND a better future, and I have faith Shaka could have delivered that, but I guess that's just me.

I think we've both beaten this topic to death, resurrected it, and then beaten it to death again. Take care.

[GoldenWarrior11]

There's no world where Dawson and DJ leaving is a positive.

Lots of semantics going back and forth, but the bottom line is that if any student-athlete does not want to be at MU (or if they are not invested in improving themselves and the program at MU), then they should definitely not remain here.  That is no slight to a player or a coach; it is just different expectations that will cause a root problem for the program this year and moving forward.  If Dawson and DJ did not want to be here (which, clearly they didn't), then it is a positive that this decision was made over the summer and not in the Fall, not during the season, not during the BET, not during the NCAAT, etc. 

The Wojo-era is over.  Looking forward to seeing what Shaka is able to do this year and hopefully many years to come. 

[Pakuni]

Lots of semantics going back and forth, but the bottom line is that if any student-athlete does not want to be at MU (or if they are not invested in improving themselves and the program at MU), then they should definitely not remain here.  That is no slight to a player or a coach; it is just different expectations that will cause a root problem for the program this year and moving forward.  If Dawson and DJ did not want to be here (which, clearly they didn't), then it is a positive that this decision was made over the summer and not in the Fall, not during the season, not during the BET, not during the NCAAT, etc. 

The Wojo-era is over.  Looking forward to seeing what Shaka is able to do this year and hopefully many years to come.

You're not wrong, but I don't recall such nonchalant responses when certain other quality players' departed.

Simply stating that it's tough to see Dawson and DJ go, and we're a lesser team because of it, has nothing to do with the Wojo era or not hoping for the best from the Shaka era. It's unfortunate that some can only view it through those lenses, rather than take it for what it is.