Update on prof McAdams

[ChicosBailBonds]

Except every student agrees with this decision. Even a lot of the hard core right wingers I know...I seriously you think you may be McAdams and if so please get off this site cause you shouldn't be associated with Marquette in any spectrum.

Source?


Wait, you said every student agrees, and the very next sentence you say "even a lot"....that doesn't sound like every. 

[jficke13]

Come on, the real reason he's getting canned is because this is MU's opportunity to get rid of someone who has persistently criticized the university at every chance he has had for YEARS. The 'gay marriage' issue is a red herring. If MU didn't have to prop up pretext to get around the asinine existence of tenure he'd have been gone long long ago.

Think of it this way, could any one of you criticize your employer with impunity like McAdams did for as long as he did and still have a job? If your answer is yes, then you're lucky enough to have the protection of the archaic tenure system.

[Blue Horseshoe]

So Blue, are you John?

If there is one thing you should have learned by now, John McAdams does not hide behind anonymous aliases behind the safety of the internet.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I will say this.  No doubt MU has exhaustively looked at the issues associated with 1) academic freedom, 2) employee harassment and intimidation and the rules governing it, 3) the status of Abbatte as a 'student', etc. via hundreds of man hours through its own outside counsel and has decided to proceed as it did.  Ultimately it'll be for the courts to decide.

Marquette's legal acumen on some issues....like reporting sexual assaults....hasn't exactly been top notch in some of these cases.

[Eldon]

Thank you for using this word.  I think it's the best description for the middle ground in the murky "Is she a student/Is she a professor?" debate.

That being the case, I chalenge you to find another professional apprenticeship - medical residency, engineer-in-training, etc. - where it is perfectly acceptable to publicly berate an apprentice for a "freshman mistake."  What do you think the students in our nursing program would do if their instructors decided to make their clinical mistakes public domain?

Let me try to rebut the bold, each in turn.

*In my opinion, the fact that it is debatable whether we can truly disentangle a graduate student's role as a teacher vs role as a student means that McAdams should not be fired.

*How are you using 'acceptable'?  I believe that McAdams actions may violate social norms and in that regard you could argue that they are unacceptable.  But I do not think that violating social norms are grounds for tenure revocation and dismissal.  Keeping McAdams on the job would not necessarily mean that Marquette finds his actions "acceptable."

*The key word in your analogy is 'instructor'.  Professors as well as professors-to-be do not have instructors.  The philosophy department doesn't send in a senior faculty member to supervise her teaching (at least, not on a regular basis), as happens in, say, medicine.

[jsglow]

If there is one thing you should have learned by now, John McAdams does not hide behind anonymous aliases behind the safety of the internet.

Hmmmm. A non answer if there ever was one.   

[Blue Horseshoe]

My guess is that MU has good lawyers on retainer.

This case won't be free... but they wouldn't have dismissed McAdams unless they were sure about their case.

If Marquette does indeed lose a wrongful termination suit (I hope McAdams does not settle), he would be entitled to damages. I believe that means his legal fees would also be covered by the university.

[jficke13]

If there is one thing you should have learned by now, John McAdams does not hide behind anonymous aliases behind the safety of the internet.

Everyone knows he subscribes to the single shooter theory. He'd never be a grassy knoll kind of guy.

[jsglow]

Marquette's legal acumen on some issues....like reporting sexual assaults....hasn't exactly been top notch in some of these cases.

True dat.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Thank you for using this word.  I think it's the best description for the middle ground in the murky "Is she a student/Is she a professor?" debate.

That being the case, I chalenge you to find another professional apprenticeship - medical residency, engineer-in-training, etc. - where it is perfectly acceptable to publicly berate an apprentice for a "freshman mistake."  What do you think the students in our nursing program would do if their instructors decided to make their clinical mistakes public domain?

I've seen it for the last 15+ years at the corporate level from time to time....where people have been literally dressed down in front of MANY people because of mistakes.  It makes your skin crawl at times, and you feel badly for the person, but I've been a witness to it.  Often it ends up at HR, but more often or not the person doing the dressing down is very high up on the food chain and life goes on.

[Ellenson Guerrero]

My guess is that MU has good lawyers on retainer.

This case won't be free... but they wouldn't have dismissed McAdams unless they were sure about their case.

I believe Marquette is a client of Whyte Hirschboek, although they may bring in some type of specialty firm for this case.  

[ChicosBailBonds]

Come on, the real reason he's getting canned is because this is MU's opportunity to get rid of someone who has persistently criticized the university at every chance he has had for YEARS. The 'gay marriage' issue is a red herring. If MU didn't have to prop up pretext to get around the asinine existence of tenure he'd have been gone long long ago.

Think of it this way, could any one of you criticize your employer with impunity like McAdams did for as long as he did and still have a job? If your answer is yes, then you're lucky enough to have the protection of the archaic tenure system.

Yup

[jsglow]

 

I also had Dr. McAdams as a prof, enjoyed his classes very much.  Hate to see this go to litigation, but seems inevitable which will be bad for MU to some extent.   

+1

[warriorchick]

I've seen it for the last 15+ years at the corporate level from time to time....where people have been literally dressed down in front of MANY people because of mistakes.  It makes your skin crawl at times, and you feel badly for the person, but I've been a witness to it.  Often it ends up at HR, but more often or not the person doing the dressing down is very high up on the food chain and life goes on.

But in your example, isn't the person doing the dressing down almost always in that person's reporting line?

How often does someone in Programming get away with publicly dressing down someone in Accounting?

[Eldon]

The Foundation for Individual Rights in Education has picked up the story

http://www.thefire.org/gay-marriage-flap-marquette-moves-fire-tenured-prof/

“If Marquette can fire a tenured professor for criticizing a fellow teacher on a blog, then tenure at Marquette is worthless, as are freedom of speech and academic freedom,” said FIRE Executive Director Robert Shibley.

[keefe]

There is no time stamp on stupidity. Marquette has a knack for making itself look naive, obtuse, and ludicrous. Isn't that the recipe for irrelevance?

 http://chronicle.com/article/Rejected-by-Marquette-Nonc/65481/

[jficke13]

The Foundation for Individual Rights in Education has picked up the story

http://www.thefire.org/gay-marriage-flap-marquette-moves-fire-tenured-prof/

“If Marquette can fire a tenured professor for criticizing a fellow teacher on a blog, then tenure at Marquette is worthless, as are freedom of speech and academic freedom,” said FIRE Executive Director Robert Shibley.

FIRE does a lot of good things.

[brandx]

He didn't decide.  She is the one who decides how to respond to criticism from another academic. 

So, if you have an intern who makes a mistake, you would have no qualms about "ripping her a new one" for anyone in the entire world to see. Rather than call her into your office and setting things straight, would you feel the need to do it publicly?

[jficke13]

So, if you have an intern who makes a mistake, you would have no qualms about "ripping her a new one" for anyone in the entire world to see. Rather than call her into your office and setting things straight, would you feel the need to do it publicly?

Just because doing so might be bad management, mentorship, leadership, or generally dic*ish behavior doesn't necessarily mean it should be grounds for dismissal.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Lovell is out here to speak to Marquette alums in West Hollywood a week from today.  I wasn't going to go, but will now.

Ask him why he wears bangs.

[Blue Horseshoe]

FIRE does a lot of good things.

Agreed. I highly recommend their Youtube page. It is eye opening about the abuse of power in academia.

https://www.youtube.com/user/TheFIREorg/videos

[Lennys Tap]

Despite the fact that many here insist this has nothing to do with politics it has everything to do with politics. If Ms. Abbate denied a student the right to express pro gay marriage views in class because she considered those views anti catholic and offensive to traditional catholics in her class the people screaming the loudest against McAdams would be hailing the courageous liberal (be it her department chair or a random faculty blogger) who came down on her hard and in public.

With maybe a handful of exceptions, this is politics informing people's principles - not the other way around.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Despite the fact that many here insist this has nothing to do with politics it has everything to do with politics. If Ms. Abbate denied a student the right to express pro gay marriage views in class because she considered those views anti catholic and offensive to traditional catholics in her class the people screaming the loudest against McAdams would be hailing the courageous liberal (be it her department chair or a random faculty blogger) who came down on her hard and in public.

With maybe a handful of exceptions, this is politics informing people's principles - not the other way around.

Yes and no.

As far as gut reaction and "outrage" (shakes fist), you're probably right.

But, as far as MU's actions, and his ultimate dismissal, I think it's really a case of a really unprofessional move by McAdams.

He took things he heard second hand, and critiqued a TA. He didn't talk to her first. He didn't take it to the department head. He didn't critique another professor's published work. He received a student account of a classroom situation, and he ran to his keyboard.

This isn't a case of academic freedom.

He heard about something he didn't like and used it for blog fodder. Again, is this really how we want professors acting?

Its likely not the first issue McAdams has had, and thus, MU feels it has compiled enough documentation to release him.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

If Marquette does indeed lose a wrongful termination suit (I hope McAdams does not settle), he would be entitled to damages. I believe that means his legal fees would also be covered by the university.

I don't know if MU will win or lose. I can't pretend that I do.

BUT, MU is likely taking carefully calculated steps. If they didn't feel they had a REALLY good chance of winning, I don't think they would have dismissed him.

OF COURSE he's going to sue. He has nothing to lose.

MU has a lot to lose, so I'm guessing they've done their homework.

[ceh]

Yes and no.

As far as gut reaction and "outrage" (shakes fist), you're probably right.

But, as far as MU's actions, and his ultimate dismissal, I think it's really a case of a really unprofessional move by McAdams.

He took things he heard second hand, and critiqued a TA. He didn't talk to her first. He didn't take it to the department head. He didn't critique another professor's published work. He received a student account of a classroom situation, and he ran to his keyboard.

This isn't a case of academic freedom.

He heard about something he didn't like and used it for blog fodder. Again, is this really how we want professors acting?

Its likely not the first issue McAdams has had, and thus, MU feels it has compiled enough documentation to release him.

I don't think you have a correct understanding of the facts.