Wisconsin

[mu03eng]

This Rebuttal would make more sense if Chicago was where Waukegan is and Milwaukee where Kenosha is. But nobody from Chicago is about to Uber to Kenosha or Lake Geneva to finally get a night out on the town with friends. They will however Uber to Naperville or Schaumburg to get a night on the town when those areas are open.

You clearly haven't been to Lake Geneva of late. 

Had a friend of a friend who lives in the south loop drive up to north of the Dells to play Mammoth Dunes with us two weekends ago.

If open, people will travel

[ZiggysFryBoy]

Then you have counties like Dane that took Evers' plan, then added 3 additional metrics, with still no logic about what can and cant be open,  all the while cases in the county are dropping. 

Example:  trampoline parks and indoor play centers are 50% capacity in phase 2, but outdoor sports are "TBD".  WTF?  I can't think of a worse place to spread illness than a trampoline park.

Home depot had cars literally to the end of their giant parking lot on Saturday, but small retailers are limited to 5 customers at a time.   I can go to my local Ace Hardware, but can't go to the clothing store across the street.  Where is the science behind these types of decisions? 

The dane co plan has lots of "sciences" in their red/yellow/green scheme, but where is the scientific difference between one type of retail or service provider and another?  Is the the plexiglass at the registers or the arrows taped to the floor in the grocery store?

By having such an illogical system, people will just go to the surrounding counties to get what they need.  (If it was regional within the state, people will just go to a different region.)  Is that in the best interest of public health? 

[Galway Eagle]

You clearly haven't been to Lake Geneva of late. 

Had a friend of a friend who lives in the south loop drive up to north of the Dells to play Mammoth Dunes with us two weekends ago.

If open, people will travel

Those are all Sconis you see out and about not the IL people!

But more seriously I hate to say it but those who went up to Lake Geneva to be in their summer homes (or escape fox lake) aren't exactly the people getting hit hardest from dense areas.  Which is why I keep bringing up whether people would hop in an Uber to head somewhere.

[tower912]

Ziggy, there are  inconsistencies at the state level in each state.   A rational federal guideline driven by science sure would be nice, wouldn't it?

[mu_hilltopper]

The dane co plan has lots of "sciences" in their red/yellow/green scheme, but where is the scientific difference between one type of retail or service provider and another?  Is the the plexiglass at the registers or the arrows taped to the floor in the grocery store?

I agree there.  And it takes about 10 seconds to come up with a guideline like "All retail locations must have XX square feet per customer."    Small shop = not many people.   

And or .. define high/low contacts businesses .. high/low age group businesses.   High/low distancing-difficulty businesses. 


I keep coming back to:  Why is this so damn hard that the two parties can't agree?   Sometimes I'm left with: One party wants to have an electoral advantage, which I suppose results in a "well, duh."


Yay, doom!

[Lighthouse 84]

I agree there.  And it takes about 10 seconds to come up with a guideline like "All retail locations must have XX square feet per customer."    Small shop = not many people.   

And or .. define high/low contacts businesses .. high/low age group businesses.   High/low distancing-difficulty businesses. 


I keep coming back to:  Why is this so damn hard that the two parties can't agree?   Sometimes I'm left with: One party wants to have has an electoral advantage, which I suppose results in a "well, duh."


Yay, doom!

If the majority of the legislature wants to pass a law that aligns with the executive order, then that will be the law.  But if the legislature wants to pass a law that says something different than what the executive order states, then that will be the law.  It might not be what the executive wanted, and it might not be what you wanted, but it's what the majority in power wanted.  But it's the legislature that is to enact the law.  Unless and until the law gets changed, the Governor doesn't have the authority to extend the lockdown as long as he wants.  One would think that the legislature then needs to pull their collective heads out of their collective asses and do something, but by sitting on the sidelines, they already are.  The problem is that many people don't agree with their action/inaction.   

[mu03eng]

I agree there.  And it takes about 10 seconds to come up with a guideline like "All retail locations must have XX square feet per customer."    Small shop = not many people.   

And or .. define high/low contacts businesses .. high/low age group businesses.   High/low distancing-difficulty businesses. 


I keep coming back to:  Why is this so damn hard that the two parties can't agree?   Sometimes I'm left with: One party wants to have an electoral advantage, which I suppose results in a "well, duh."


Yay, doom!

I've often wondered what would have happened if this pandemic happened two years ago or two years from now

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

If the majority of the legislature wants to pass a law that aligns with the executive order, then that will be the law.  But if the legislature wants to pass a law that says something different than what the executive order states, then that will be the law.  It might not be what the executive wanted, and it might not be what you wanted, but it's what the majority in power wanted.  But it's the legislature that is to enact the law.  Unless and until the law gets changed, the Governor doesn't have the authority to extend the lockdown as long as he wants.  One would think that the legislature then needs to pull their collective heads out of their collective asses and do something, but by sitting on the sidelines, they already are.  The problem is that many people don't agree with their action/inaction.   

I mean....no sh*t.  No one is disputing this.

I think people are just frustrated that a global pandemic is just another time where government dysfunction reigns.  Where Democrats and Republicans, legislative and executive, have to resort to petty differences and talking points versus sitting down and hammering out a common sense, balanced approach.  So instead, people stake their positions on either side and sue one another if they don't like the other approach.

So instead we have a patch-work that isn't based on any public health science, but on politics. People are just exhausted by it.

[mu_hilltopper]

I think people are just frustrated that a global pandemic is just another time where government dysfunction reigns.

People are just exhausted by it.

This.  Heard a guy on TV say something like "If Los Angeles was the subject of a North Korean nuclear attack, it would be a partisan issue by Day 2.   

We don't disagree anymore.  We disgust each other as Americans."

[Lighthouse 84]

I mean....no sh*t.  No one is disputing this.

I think people are just frustrated that a global pandemic is just another time where government dysfunction reigns.  Where Democrats and Republicans, legislative and executive, have to resort to petty differences and talking points versus sitting down and hammering out a common sense, balanced approach.  So instead, people stake their positions on either side and sue one another if they don't like the other approach.

So instead we have a patch-work that isn't based on any public health science, but on politics. People are just exhausted by it.

Actually, if you read through just the last few pages of this thread, people are disputing this.  Like it or not, whether a plan is in place or not, it's not the court's job to make the plan. 

[Hards Alumni]

If the majority of the legislature wants to pass a law that aligns with the executive order, then that will be the law.  But if the legislature wants to pass a law that says something different than what the executive order states, then that will be the law.  It might not be what the executive wanted, and it might not be what you wanted, but it's what the majority in power wanted.  But it's the legislature that is to enact the law.  Unless and until the law gets changed, the Governor doesn't have the authority to extend the lockdown as long as he wants.  One would think that the legislature then needs to pull their collective heads out of their collective asses and do something, but by sitting on the sidelines, they already are.  The problem is that many people don't agree with their action/inaction.

Thanks for the civics lesson, teach!

[Pakuni]

Actually, if you read through just the last few pages of this thread, people are disputing this.  Like it or not, whether a plan is in place or not, it's not the court's job to make the plan.

I don't recall anyone suggesting it's the court's job to make a plan. The criticism has been of the court's decision not to place a temporary stay on its ruling in order to allow state and local health authorities to prepare for impacts of the ruling, rather than allowing for the Wild West show we've seen over the last week. That kind of thing is fairly common.

[4everwarriors]

Ziggy, there are  inconsistencies at the state level in each state.   A rational federal guideline driven by science sure would be nice, wouldn't it?

Nope, then the blues would bitch you can't take away the power of governors. Can't win. Damned either way, hey?

[Uncle Rico]

Nope, then the blues would bitch you can't take away the power of governors. Can't win. Damned either way, hey?

Evers was following federal guidelines established by a republican executive.  You’re right.  Damned either way

[MU82]

Evers was following federal guidelines established by a republican executive.  You’re right.  Damned either way

Yep, and that executive's sycophants protest their governors for following the executive's own guidelines. What a country!

[pacearrow02]

Yep, and that executive's sycophants protest their governors for following the executive's own guidelines. What a country!

So you are saying there has been federal direction on what/when do to this whole time? It seems depending on the thread a handful of posters here are bouncing between....”there is no federal guidance so we shouldn’t be shocked at the chaos in our reopening plan” and then in their next breath saying “blue governors were just trying to execute the federal game plan” but the courts aren’t allowing it!! 

[jesmu84]

So you are saying there has been federal direction on what/when do to this whole time? It seems depending on the thread a handful of posters here are bouncing between....”there is no federal guidance so we shouldn’t be shocked at the chaos in our reopening plan” and then in their next breath saying “blue governors were just trying to execute the federal game plan” but the courts aren’t allowing it!!

Intellectual dishonesty

[pacearrow02]

Because one county's laissez faire approach to COVID can have negative consequences for surrounding counties.

If the surrounding counties are all locked down the risk from a citizen coming in from a neighboring county that is not as restrictive  seems minimal.  If businesses are open 5 minutes from my house, not much of a reason to drive 20 mins to a neighboring county to shop, etc. 

[Uncle Rico]

So you are saying there has been federal direction on what/when do to this whole time? It seems depending on the thread a handful of posters here are bouncing between....”there is no federal guidance so we shouldn’t be shocked at the chaos in our reopening plan” and then in their next breath saying “blue governors were just trying to execute the federal game plan” but the courts aren’t allowing it!!

The chief executive is incapable of following the guidelines set forth or communicating them, contradicting them at every turn and urging states to open.  It’s not complicated to see why there is such confusion. 

[Uncle Rico]

If the surrounding counties are all locked down the risk from a citizen coming in from a neighboring county that is not as restrictive  seems minimal.  If businesses are open 5 minutes from my house, not much of a reason to drive 20 mins to a neighboring county to shop, etc.

One would think.  Yet, as we saw this weekend, people were traveling all over the state and pouring in from Illinois.

[pacearrow02]

Intellectual dishonesty

How so?

[jesmu84]

It's kind of interesting in a "this would be more interesting if the world weren't on fire" kind of way to watch the political process evolve so that one side plays by purely Machiavellian game theory rules, and the other just... doesn't. I guess its what would happen if the people in the Prisoner's Dilemma have played the game 1000 times, each time making the same decisions, and only one of the two sides electing to maximize their expected outcome.

Back in Roman times there was a shared set of norms and customs, "mos maiorum," that governed how people interacted with the state, with the powers of the offices they held, with each other, etc. This isn't to say that mos maiorum dictated that people interact selflessly with the state or their powers (plenty, plenty of corruption was expected and even tolerated), but to oversimplify: In order to play the game, you had to abide by the norms of mos maiorum... until the generations that preceded Julius Ceasar's generation. Then a couple of players realized that they could simply... not play by the same rules. For example, one elected office had a universal veto, so they held the government hostage by exercising that veto over everything and fought mob battles in the streets to ensure they held onto that veto. The shared rules that knit the society together started to fray, and a couple generations later were gone entirely.

The problem with looking at Wisconsin's governance is one where we're viewing it through the lens of our own mos maiorum. When we "why aren't they doing what we expect a legislature to do?" or "why is the supreme court as nakedly political as it is?" we're testing the behavior of some of the players of a game who've observed that violating the the mos maiorum rules of the game have no consequence against the expectation that they do abide by those rules.

Bingo. Big problem at all levels of government right now.

[pacearrow02]

One would think.  Yet, as we saw this weekend, people were traveling all over the state and pouring in from Illinois.

Pouring in from lock downed counties into less restrictive ones, so don’t see there really being an issue with that.  I’m sure the businesses appreciated the additional butts in seats and revenue.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

One would think.  Yet, as we saw this weekend, people were traveling all over the state and pouring in from Illinois.

Prtizker's family have been traveling to WI and FL.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/coronavirus/ct-coronavirus-pritzker-family-whereabouts-20200515-rx5qkabrabg67j3dfkllbowntu-story.html?outputType=amp&__twitter_impression=true

Racine, maybe thsy are visiting jockitch?

Thee, not me, aina.

[Uncle Rico]

Prtizker's family have been traveling to WI and FL.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/coronavirus/ct-coronavirus-pritzker-family-whereabouts-20200515-rx5qkabrabg67j3dfkllbowntu-story.html?outputType=amp&__twitter_impression=true

Racine, maybe thsy are visiting jockitch?

Thee, not me, aina.

He should get taken behind the woodshed.