2013 MLB Thread

[WI inferiority Complexes]

It's going to be interesting see the fallout when Sosa (and others) are banned from Cooperstown without ever testing positive for steroids.

While not offically "banned," many players who never tested positive but were probably (definitely) using are already being left out of Cooperstown.  Last year McGwire (who admitted without failing a test) and Sosa received under 20% of the writers' votes, (as did Palmerio, but he tested positive once). 

Clemens and Bonds only received 37% and 36% of votes, and both should probably be elgible even if you ignored their "enhanced years."  Piazza and Bagwell--who are guilty of playing during the era as much as anything else--received only 67% of votes.

The writers have spoken, and it doesn't look like these players are getting in.

[MerrittsMustache]

While not offically "banned," many players who never tested positive but were probably (definitely) using are already being left out of Cooperstown.  Last year McGwire (who admitted without failing a test) and Sosa received under 20% of the writers' votes, (as did Palmerio, but he tested positive once). 

Clemens and Bonds only received 37% and 36% of votes, and both should probably be elgible even if you ignored their "enhanced years."  Piazza and Bagwell--who are guilty of playing during the era as much as anything else--received only 67% of votes.

The writers have spoken, and it doesn't look like these players are getting in.

It will never happen but I'd love to see McGwire, Sosa, Clemens and Bonds all be inducted in the same year just to watch Bud Selig put on a happy face and smile for the cameras next to these guys. He's the one who looked the other way and allowed PEDs to nearly overrun his sport before feigning outrage once records started falling, so he should be forced to welcome these cheaters in Cooperstown.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

As apologies go .. that wasn't bad.  I don't see a lot of word parsing or blame.  Just, I did it, I was wrong, I screwed people over and I shouldn't have, and I'm sorry.   Not sure what else he could have said to make it a better statement.

The only thing that piqued my interest was the concept that the substances were to heal an injury.   There's a spectrum of PED usage .. on one end is "I wanna be a big ogre, swatting home runs" .. on the other would be "I want to heal from an injury quicker."  One is massive cheating, the other .. hmm.

Assuming, of course, that Braun is telling the truth there.

I thought it was well written.

I don't really believe a word of it (why should I?)

But, it was well written.

[Lennys Tap]

I thought it was well written.

I don't really believe a word of it (why should I?)

But, it was well written.

Can Marquette afford the firm who wrote it? Somebody make a phone call!

[MerrittsMustache]

I thought it was well written.

I don't really believe a word of it (why should I?)

But, it was well written.

Agreed. It was nicely done albeit completely false.

After he held a presser vehemently proclaiming his innocence, e-mailing out a lawyer-written statement is cowardly. The least he could do is stand up in front of a room of reporters and speak for himself. Even just reading the lawyer-written statement and exiting would have been a better option than remaining out of site.

[GGGG]

Agreed. It was nicely done albeit completely false.

After he held a presser vehemently proclaiming his innocence, e-mailing out a lawyer-written statement is cowardly. The least he could do is stand up in front of a room of reporters and speak for himself. Even just reading the lawyer-written statement and exiting would have been a better option than remaining out of site.

To be fair, I think the statement was written by a PR flak and then reviewed by a lawyer.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Yea, I mean, he didn't write it... I don't think a lawyer wrote it either.

It's a communications professional (Yeah college of communications!).

Anyways, as far as a live presser and whatnot, I don't care at all. BUT, I'm not a Brewer/Braun fan, so I don't have the same sense of betrayal that some others do.

[MerrittsMustache]

To be fair, I think the statement was written by a PR flak and then reviewed by a lawyer.

True. I guess "lawyer-approved" would have been a better way of putting it.

[jesmu84]

Maybe I'm dumb, but can someone explain why PEDs aren't just lifetime bans? Or, perhaps more importantly, why player's unions and the sporting group (mlb, nfl, etc) never agree on testing, etc? If it's bad for the player's health, bad PR when people get caught, bad for league records, etc... Why is it not outlawed and tested for like crazy?  If no one is doing it, then everyone is on the same playing field. I would think it would be in everyone's best interest to have it that way.

[MerrittsMustache]

Maybe I'm dumb, but can someone explain why PEDs aren't just lifetime bans? Or, perhaps more importantly, why player's unions and the sporting group (mlb, nfl, etc) never agree on testing, etc? If it's bad for the player's health, bad PR when people get caught, bad for league records, etc... Why is it not outlawed and tested for like crazy?  If no one is doing it, then everyone is on the same playing field. I would think it would be in everyone's best interest to have it that way.

The players who do it and get away with it often make a lot more money than they'd make without it. Unions want to protect their players' wallets more than their lives.

[WI inferiority Complexes]

Maybe I'm dumb, but can someone explain why PEDs aren't just lifetime bans?

Imposing the equivalent of a "death sentence" is risky in most aspects.

[GGGG]

Unions have compromised on PEDs.  More testing is being done and they aren't helping the players with their appeals.  That being said, lifetime bans are viewed by the unions as overreaction.  And I don't disagree with that.  

[Lennys Tap]

Maybe I'm dumb, but can someone explain why PEDs aren't just lifetime bans? Or, perhaps more importantly, why player's unions and the sporting group (mlb, nfl, etc) never agree on testing, etc? If it's bad for the player's health, bad PR when people get caught, bad for league records, etc... Why is it not outlawed and tested for like crazy?  If no one is doing it, then everyone is on the same playing field. I would think it would be in everyone's best interest to have it that way.

The union is the adversary of management. They don't view drug testing as a "good of the game" or a "health of the player" issue. They see it as part of the power struggle and a player's rights issue.

[brandx]

The problem is that we don't know if it is a health issue. I don't know of any long term study on the effects of PEDs or even steroids for that matter. Most reports come from case studies rather than epidemiological studies

It is quite possible that there are serious implication with long term use, but maybe not. Most symptoms will go away after usage is stopped, but not all.

But I see an awful lot of articles as well as posts on this board stating flat out that these drugs are dangerous as though it is a proven fact.

[wadesworld]

So, you think MLB has proof he has used PEDs throughout his entire career, knowing this, Braun releases a statement saying it was only once.  We all know MLB never leaks anything at all, but if you were right, his drug test results from the past 10 years would magically appear in Jeff Passans email box.

Well they only have 1 failed drug test, but the information they were provided about the Biogenesis Lab essentially proved that he had been using PEDs since day 1 of his professional career.  That is what I have heard.

[reinko]

Well they only have 1 failed drug test, but the information they were provided about the Biogenesis Lab essentially proved that he had been using PEDs since day 1 of his professional career.  That is what I have heard.

In all honesty,  heard from who?   Do you have connections to this case?   And again,  if MLB had anything to contradict Braun,  knowing their record of trying to punish every PED user to the highest extent, wouldn't they release it?  Braun made a mockery of Selig,  Selig got him on the Biogen docs,  now Braun outright lies in his first statement?

   If MLB had shreds of evidence of what you claim,  why would sit on their hands?  I'm no Braun defender,  but your logic doesn't pass the smell test.

[wadesworld]

In all honesty,  heard from who?   Do you have connections to this case?   And again,  if MLB had anything to contradict Braun,  knowing their record of trying to punish every PED user to the highest extent, wouldn't they release it?  Braun made a mockery of Selig,  Selig got him on the Biogen docs,  now Braun outright lies in his first statement?

   If MLB had shreds of evidence of what you claim,  why would sit on their hands?  I'm no Braun defender,  but your logic doesn't pass the smell test.

No connection to the case at all, just what I've heard "going around."  And no, the MLB wouldn't release it, at least not right away, not right after Braun "had his (2nd) day in court."  The MLB got what they wanted (punish Ryan Braun), and Ryan Braun got what he wanted (avoid any sort of suspension during the 2014 season).  Both parties are happy, and Braun can say what he wants because the investigation is over.  The details couldn't "ironically" be left out for somebody to see and talk about to the public, not days after Braun's statement.  That's not "ironic" at all.  Now maybe in 2 years there could be an "accident" where the details come out.

Let's look at what Braun said.  Braun claims he used "cream" and "lozenges" to get over a "nagging injury."  Braun's failed drug test was taken on October 1, the same day as Game 1 of the NLDS.  Braun missed time during the 2011 season...in July (missing the All-Star Game).  In September, Braun hit .333 with 8 home runs.  I think Braun was over his "nagging injury" by October 1.  Braun also tested 22:1 (originally heard it had been 20:1) in his testosterone:epitestosterone ratio.  TWENTY-TWO:ONE!  That is TWENTY-TWO TIMES the normal human being ratio.  That is also the HIGHEST to ever have been tested in the MLB drug testing.  He needed THAT MUCH for a "nagging injury?"  Right.

And again, what about when the MLB first questioned him about the Biogenesis clinic?  He refused to answer any questions, he continued to deny any wrongdoing.  What changed his mind?  Over a year and a half of denying everything.  Then suddenly he's ready to come clean?  Hmm.  I'm thinking there was more than just October 1, especially considering he had already beaten that one.

[NavinRJohnson]

He's obviously a d-bag for lying and I think all off us have totally lost any respect we had for him. But....

the whole drug thing astounds me. We are a society that is based on drugs every day and in every way. Turn on the TV and you'll see adds PUSHING drugs. The ads don't even say what they are for. Just "ask your doctor for some". US has 5% of world's population and consumes 75% of world's painkillers.

Where do kids get drugs - from the medicine cabinets of the adults who are appalled by Ryan Braun's actions (their parents). And I haven't even mentioned anti-depressants- usage is up over 400% in last 20 years.

Close to 50% of the population in the 40 - 60 age range need drugs or alcohol to get thru the day - but they function at their job everyday.

We allow players to be surgically enhanced to play - ripping a tendon from one part of the body to use elsewhere - but not medicinally enhanced.

This isn't bad. Maybe not entirely analgous, but not bad, and precisely what I don't give a rip about any of this. He did what he did as dozens of other players have, and continue to do. I dont care about them either, and i dont know whay anyone does, if they actually do.  Why anyone feels they are entitled to criticize the quality of his apology letter, or say that he needs to stand up and answer questions from reporters is beyond me. He doesn't owe you or I anything. There is a population out there that was going to rip him no matter what he said or didn't say.

This feigned indignation over PED use is ridiculous. It's rampant in the NFL. Everyone knows it, yet nobody says a word - including most of he same people ripping Braun, ARod, etc. folks like to rip on Braun on Saturday, then praise the likes of Clay Matthews, JJ Watt, Adrian Peterson, Collin Kapernick, etc. on Sunday. Goes byond just PEDs too as far as ripping on the guy as a person (not limited to Braun). How many people at Lambau Field the other night were cheering Johnny Jolly, were ripping on Braun in the parking lot two hours earlier? It's all nonsense.

[wadesworld]

This isn't bad. Maybe not entirely analgous, but not bad, and precisely what I don't give a rip about any of this. He did what he did as dozens of other players have, and continue to do. I dont care about them either, and i dont know whay anyone does, if they actually do.  Why anyone feels they are entitled to criticize the quality of his apology letter, or say that he needs to stand up and answer questions from reporters is beyond me. He doesn't owe you or I anything. There is a population out there that was going to rip him no matter what he said or didn't say.

This feigned indignation over PED use is ridiculous. It's rampant in the NFL. Everyone knows it, yet nobody says a word - including most of he same people ripping Braun, ARod, etc. folks like to rip on Braun on Saturday, then praise the likes of Clay Matthews, JJ Watt, Adrian Peterson, Collin Kapernick, etc. on Sunday. Goes byond just PEDs too as far as ripping on the guy as a person (not limited to Braun). How many people at Lambau Field the other night were cheering Johnny Jolly, were ripping on Braun in the parking lot two hours earlier? It's all nonsense.

Disagreed with most of your point.  I agree that *everyone* does it, and frankly I don't really care as a result.  But I do think he owes everyone an apology and the truth.  He got caught breaking the rules of his profession, and he needs to own up to it.  He is getting paid $150 million by the Milwaukee Brewers and screwed the organization over.  Again, I don't really care that he did it, but he does owe the fans the truth.  If the NFL tested for PEDs, I'd expect the same from players who get caught.  Just because people use them and don't get caught doesn't mean Braun shouldn't be held responsible for his actions.

[NavinRJohnson]

  Just because people use them and don't get caught doesn't mean Braun shouldn't be held responsible for his actions.

I guess this is my point...he is currently serving a suspension, has had private conversations with Attanasio, ARodge, teammates, etc., and has issued a formal public apology. The fact that public apology doesn't meet with your approval is completely irrelevant. He didn't even owe you or I what he gave, but he did it anyway. No matter what he had done, I suspect you and others would have been criticizing for one reason or another. He is frankly no better off in the eyes of those looking to bury him, than if he had said absolutely nothing (which in my opinion is what he should have done).

[wadesworld]

I guess this is my point...he is currently serving a suspension, has had private conversations with Attanasio, ARodge, teammates, etc., and has issued a formal public apology. The fact that public apology doesn't meet with your approval is completely irrelevant. He didn't even owe you or I what he gave, but he did it anyway. No matter what he had done, I suspect you and others would have been criticizing for one reason or another. He is frankly no better off in the eyes of those looking to bury him, than if he had said absolutely nothing (which in my opinion is what he should have done).

I'm not a Braun basher.  I defended him after his successful appeal originally.  But the guy is a complete idiot.  He was lucky to get out of a suspension when he KNEW he had taken PEDs.  THAT is when he should have shut the hell up, rather than throwing people under the bus despite the fact that he was the only one to blame.  After everything he said and all the denials he put up, he ABSOLUTELY owes us fans the truth.  I have paid to go to Milwaukee Brewer baseball games.  My support for the team, while as small of a percentage as it is, contributes to Ryan Braun's career and earnings.  He screwed over the Brewers organization, his family, his friends, the fans, etc.  Maybe he shouldn't "bet his life" that he hadn't put anything in his body.  And yet he continues to lie.  He did not take them to get over a "nagging injury."  He failed his drug test in October.  His nagging injury was in July.  Just tell the truth.  He failed his drug test, come clean with it.  Quit lying, you don't look any better.

[BrewCity83]

That's my problem with the statement.  This was really Braun's last opportunity to come clean about the extent of his PED use.  If it comes out some time down the road that he was using at some time other than late in 2011, then he's lying more. That's why I'm still trying to give hime a chance to redeem himself. Because he can't be that stupid. As a Brewers fan, I just hope that he's finally being honest.

[NavinRJohnson]

 And yet he continues to lie.  He did not take them to get over a "nagging injury."  He failed his drug test in October.  His nagging injury was in July.  Just tell the truth.  He failed his drug test, come clean with it. 

Perhaps, but you have no idea if that's true. The fact he happened to be injured in July doesn't mean a thing. You inferred it, but he you no idea what he may have been referring to.

[MerrittsMustache]

What the he!! was Carlos Gomez doing last night? I realize that he and Maholm have a bit of a history, but jeez...

[Hards Alumni]

What the he!! was Carlos Gomez doing last night? I realize that he and Maholm have a bit of a history, but jeez...

Its getting to be that the Atlanta Braves sort of have a history with everyone.