2013 MLB Thread

[Spotcheck Billy]

Actually, I'm a firm believe that if a player violates MLB's drug policy, he should be required to re-pay his organization all of the money that they've paid him as a Major Leaguer. Think that would be a deterrent?

LOL but where are they going to come up with the money to re-pay every $$$.

[MerrittsMustache]

LOL but where are they going to come up with the money to re-pay every $$$.

That's the point. Basically, if you get caught cheating, you become homeless 

[NavinRJohnson]

Pretty much what's to be expected from the Braun apologists: "Everyone else is doing it too."

They are, and I don't care about the others any more than I do about Braun. How exactly does that make me an apologist? Unless of course you are suggesting that Braun is the only one.

[NavinRJohnson]

As if I wrote it myself...

http://www.sportingnews.com/mlb/story/2013-07-22/ryan-braun-suspension-biogenesis-peds-mlb-brewers-barry-bonds

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

They are, and I don't care about the others any more than I do about Braun. How exactly does that make me an apologist? Unless of course you are suggesting that Braun is the only one.

I think your stance on the issue is fine.

There is no way for us to go back in time to see how you felt about Sosa hitting 60+ homers. If you were cool with Sammy, McGuire, and you consider Bonds the all-time home run king, then that's cool.

If you didn't like the other guys doing steroids, then you can't give Braun a pass (IMO).

[GGGG]

It wasn't entirely Laurenzi's fault since he followed the procedure that was laid out by his company.  And I understand that Braun's argument was completely valid in court, but Braun didn't present his innocence as a technicality, instead he essentially attacked the Laurenzi.

“We spoke to biochemists and scientists, and asked them how difficult it would be for someone to taint the sample. They said, if they were motivated, it would be extremely easy.”

I think there is serious implication in multiple quotes.

No he was stating the case for why chain of custody is important.  Laurenzi's a big boy...he can handle it.

[RawdogDX]

"There were a lot of things that we learned about the collector, about the collection process, about the way that the entire thing worked," Braun said, "that made us very concerned and very suspicious about what could have actually happened."
-Ryan Braun 2/29/2012

I think he owes Dino Laurenzi an apology.

Yep, so do a lot of brewer fans.  
It is hilarious to think about the number of people who thought that 'giving someone the benefit of the doubt' meant believing that synthetic substances can magically appear in a tamperproof cup, sealed in a tamperproof bag, stored in a tamperproof box.  

[RawdogDX]

No he was stating the case for why chain of custody is important.  Laurenzi's a big boy...he can handle it.

Handle it?  He got fired.  He had a career that he was proud of.

[NavinRJohnson]

I think your stance on the issue is fine.

There is no way for us to go back in time to see how you felt about Sosa hitting 60+ homers. If you were cool with Sammy, McGuire, and you consider Bonds the all-time home run king, then that's cool.

If you didn't like the other guys doing steroids, then you can't give Braun a pass (IMO).

In the interest of full disclosure and honesty, I did/do view those guys and the other roided up freaks of that era just a little differently (kinda like the NFL players of today - those reveling in this Braun suspension, may want to choose their words carefully, as they are coming to an NFL stadium near you before long. To your point). Where that was about HGH, etc. and getting as big and strong as possible, I view the PED use of today more about recovery, staying on the field, etc. which I still think is very widespread. I understand that may be a difference without a distinction, and I have acknowledged, perhaps in this very thread, that it is admittedly difficult to reconcile, but its how I feel. All of that said, i dont even much care about those guys anymore. I guess I'm not too into the whole "Home Run King" or other things like that (in all honesty I really did not understand the fascination with the Sosa-MacGuire  home run battle while it was going on.).  I know Babe Ruth, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, etc. we're the best players of all time. That's good enough for me. Robin Yount and George Brett were two of my all time favorites (but what do we not know about them?).

Fact is, I view much of this as feigned indignation. I am not going to buy into it because I didn't doubt it was going on all along, and when I am at Miller Park tonight, I don't doubt that there will players on both teams doing the same thing. I just don't care. The game is the same. I want my baseball (and football, and basketball). Is there a more messed up organization than the NCAA? Yet we all flood into the Bradly Center and are glued to the TV when MU plays, and then pretend to be outraged when coaches/players are shown to be scum bags, violations are exposed, etc. I know what's going on, and I readily admit that I provide tacit endorsement with my dollars, and have absolutely no right to criticize after the stuff becomes public knowledge, or try to pretend I didn't know what was happening.

If you want to criticize Braun for strong public denials, etc. when he knew what he was doing, that's fair, but even then, an athlete that didn't turn out to be the guy the public built him up to be? There's a shock. I don't hold them in particularly high esteem to begin with, so its hard to be disappointed.  I guess it's times like these that my healthy (or unhealthy) cynicism pays off.

[NavinRJohnson]

Handle it?  He got fired.  He had a career that he was proud of.

Completely incorrect. He is collecting samples for other teams this very day. The only guy who got fired was the arbitrator, even though MLB subsequently made changes to correct the errors that he correctly found were made in the Braun case.

[GGGG]

Yep, so do a lot of brewer fans.  
It is hilarious to think about the number of people who thought that 'giving someone the benefit of the doubt' meant believing that synthetic substances can magically appear in a tamperproof cup, sealed in a tamperproof bag, stored in a tamperproof box.  

I always thought Braun did it.  However the sample was not treated the way it should have been.  He rightfully got off on a technicality.

[MerrittsMustache]

I always thought Braun did it.  However the sample was not treated the way it should have been.  He rightfully got off on a technicality.

True. He rightfully got off on a technicality...but he also held a press conference proclaiming his innocence and implying that his sample was tampered with by the collector all while knowing that he got caught, was fortunate enough to get off on a technicality and that the collector had nothing to do with the test being positive. 

[LAZER]

No he was stating the case for why chain of custody is important.  Laurenzi's a big boy...he can handle it.

Yes and in this case Laurenzi was the only one who handled the sample, implying that Laurenzi would be the one with intent to tamper with the sample.  The same way he implied that the only way his test could be 3 times higher than any other positive test was if someone tampered with it.

He threw the guy under the bus and put the blame on him.  A simple, normal act might have been to add this guy's name in the long list of apologies he dished out yesterday. In reality of all the hardship he put on his family, his team, and the organization, this collector really got it worse than anyone as a result of Braun doing steroids.

[Lennys Tap]

I always thought Braun did it.  However the sample was not treated the way it should have been.  He rightfully got off on a technicality.

True. He rightfully got off on a technicality. Then he held a press conference and went Lance Armstrong on us with his denials and his indignation. That "performance" will make him an anathema to many. He has earned it.

[GGGG]

True. He rightfully got off on a technicality. Then he held a press conference and went Lance Armstrong on us with his denials and his indignation. That "performance" will make him an anathema to many. He has earned it.

I don't disagree with that.  I just don't think he owes Laurenzi an apology.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

In the interest of full disclosure and honesty, I did/do view those guys and the other roided up freaks of that era just a little differently (kinda like the NFL players of today - those reveling in this Braun suspension, may want to choose their words carefully, as they are coming to an NFL stadium near you before long. To your point). Where that was about HGH, etc. and getting as big and strong as possible, I view the PED use of today more about recovery, staying on the field, etc. which I still think is very widespread. I understand that may be a difference without a distinction, and I have acknowledged, perhaps in this very thread, that it is admittedly difficult to reconcile, but its how I feel. All of that said, i dont even much care about those guys anymore. I guess I'm not too into the whole "Home Run King" or other things like that (in all honesty I really did not understand the fascination with the Sosa-MacGuire  home run battle while it was going on.).  I know Babe Ruth, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, etc. we're the best players of all time. That's good enough for me. Robin Yount and George Brett were two of my all time favorites (but what do we not know about them?).

Fact is, I view much of this as feigned indignation. I am not going to buy into it because I didn't doubt it was going on all along, and when I am at Miller Park tonight, I don't doubt that there will players on both teams doing the same thing. I just don't care. The game is the same. I want my baseball (and football, and basketball). Is there a more messed up organization than the NCAA? Yet we all flood into the Bradly Center and are glued to the TV when MU plays, and then pretend to be outraged when coaches/players are shown to be scum bags, violations are exposed, etc. I know what's going on, and I readily admit that I provide tacit endorsement with my dollars, and have absolutely no right to criticize after the stuff becomes public knowledge, or try to pretend I didn't know what was happening.

If you want to criticize Braun for strong public denials, etc. when he knew what he was doing, that's fair, but even then, an athlete that didn't turn out to be the guy the public built him up to be? There's a shock. I don't hold them in particularly high esteem to begin with, so its hard to be disappointed.  I guess it's times like these that my healthy (or unhealthy) cynicism pays off.

I appreciate the honesty, I guess it seems a bit hypocritical that guys from other teams were/are considered steroid freaks, while your guy is simply trying to stay on the field.

But, at least you are being honest, which most fans struggle with.

We all have our own biases.

[MerrittsMustache]

I don't disagree with that.  I just don't think he owes Laurenzi an apology.

So, Braun pinned his positive test on a guy he knew did not tamper with his sample and you think that's fine?

[GGGG]

So, Braun pinned his positive test on a guy he knew did not tamper with his sample and you think that's fine?

He made an implication over what could have been done with a chain of command error.  I don't have a problem with that at all.  Do your job correctly and it wouldn't be a problem.

[NavinRJohnson]

I appreciate the honesty, I guess it seems a bit hypocritical that guys from other teams were/are considered steroid freaks, while your guy is simply trying to stay on the field.

Don't get me wrong, its a function of the era, and likely technology and testing. Not sure anyone could take HGH today and get away with it, so the PEDs themselves have changed, and will continue to do so. I'm sure there were plenty of guys I liked who were doing it (not that it helped the Brewers back then). Again, I know it sounds stupid, but they don't look different now like they did then, so maybe just a psychological difference, and im not sure it has as much impact, and if some testosterone, or whatever the heck they're taking that we don't even know about, helps more players stay on the field, as a fan who just wants his baseball, it doesn't bother me a whole lot.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Don't get me wrong, its a function of the era, and likely technology and testing. Not sure anyone could take HGH today and get away with it, so the PEDs themselves have changed, and will continue to do so. I'm sure there were plenty of guys I liked who were doing it (not that it helped the Brewers back then). Again, I know it sounds stupid, but they don't look different now like they did then, so maybe just a psychological difference, and im not sure it has as much impact, and if some testosterone, or whatever the heck they're taking that we don't even know about, helps more players stay on the field, as a fan who just wants his baseball, it doesn't bother me a whole lot.

I don't disagree, but I think the problems are:

#1 Where do we draw the line between "help you stay on the field" vs "Help you throw 99mph". I don't think you can, so you have to do what you can to eliminate what you can.

and

#2 Baseball is a game of numbers, so if you allow a certain level or artificial PEDs, then be prepared for the record books to look weird. Not that it really matters much to me, but people get weird about that stuff. People want to believe Ted Williams was the best hitter, or Aaron is the home run king. But, truth be told, Bond was better than both of them. No doubt. So, if you allow PEDs in the sport, what does that do to the records? How about the HOF? People have strong emotional ties to that kind of stuff.

[LAZER]

He made an implication over what could have been done with a chain of command error.  I don't have a problem with that at all.  Do your job correctly and it wouldn't be a problem.

What should have he done differently?

[Spotcheck Billy]

too bad they kept Braun and let Prince go






because I'm sure Prince would never....

[NavinRJohnson]

I have another question for everyone so up in arms about this that has always evaded me about the whole PED discussion...guys like Gaylord Perry, The Neikros, Don Sutton, etc. are actually celebrated in the annals of baseball lore for their ability to scuff the ball, use Vaseline, etc. They sit comfortably in the Hall of Fame, and their cheating is considered little more than a colorful baseball anectdote. How is this any different?

[LAZER]

The votes for these guys to get in the HOF is going to be such a sh*t show.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I have another question for everyone so up in arms about this that has always evaded me about the whole PED discussion...guys like Gaylord Perry, The Neikros, Don Sutton, etc. are actually celebrated in the annals of baseball lore for their ability to scuff the ball, use Vaseline, etc. They sit comfortably in the Hall of Fame, and their cheating is considered little more than a colorful baseball anectdote. How is this any different?

It's not really different, it's cheating.

But, realistically I don't know if people cared that much because these guys were never obliterating records.

Once all of the records started to fall, then the public outrage began with PEDs, and continues today.