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19-13

Author Topic: Is a low post threat essential for a championship level team?  (Read 8233 times)

NotAnAlum

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Since it’s kind of a slow time on the board AND we continue to debate this Crean couldn’t/wouldn’t use a big man issue I’d like to pose a scenario for people to consider.  Now I think we call feel that D Wade was the critical piece of the 03 season that lead to the final 4 and by season I mean the whole season that got them 3 seed that and the 4 game run to the final 4.  I don’t think you can separate the 4 games by themselves.  Anyway what if Robert Jackson had not been on that team.  Instead lets substitute Lazer Hayward for Robert.  So now we’ve got a guy with roughly equal offensive production but a totally different game.  So now your lineup is Diener, Wade, Townsend, Merritt and Hayward.  Is that still a potential final 4 team or is it just a “good” team.  Merritt is tall but doesn’t have a center’s game so this team has virtually no low post game.  So to frame the question can you be a championship caliber team without low post play if your perimeter players are good enough or is a low post player a prerequisite for that kind of success using the 03 time as a model?

Nukem2

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Re: Is a low post threat essential for a championship level team?
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2008, 12:42:29 PM »
Without question, you need a low post prescence to be a Final 4 team.  RJax was obviously the difference between the 02 and 03 teams.  Not only did he fortify the middle, he allowed Merritt to play his true position as a 4.  Merritt had his most effective season by far that year (not necessarily stats, but effectiveness).  The last several MU teams (and this year?) have been hamstrung by the lack of a consistent prescence in the middle.  Look at George Mason a couple of years ago, their 5 was only 6'7 or 6'8, but he was a prescence.  Davidson's bigs presented a prescence last year.  Actual height or size is not the determining factor, but whether the low post play is effective within the framework of a given team.  Hopefully, MU's 3-headed post play will be effective this season.

4everwarriors

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Re: Is a low post threat essential for a championship level team?
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2008, 12:47:03 PM »
Its a big man's game from both an offensive and defensive position, period.

"Give 'Em Hell, Al"

MUBB7703

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Re: Is a low post threat essential for a championship level team?
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2008, 01:46:04 PM »
Yes, you must have a low post presence to take the pressure off the perimeter guys.  With a consistent low post player, Dom, Jerel and Wes all play better because they can use him to bail them out as they go to the basket.  Moreover, our bigs get a lot of rebounds crashing the boards.  If they can score consistently, either a basket or a foul and convert the free throws, they become a presence for us down low.

On defense, they need to hold their ground, not get in foul trouble and play the other teams bigs even.

Canned Goods n Ammo

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Re: Is a low post threat essential for a championship level team?
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2008, 02:13:49 PM »
I think you need star players at every starting position as well as great role players off of the bench.

Mayor McCheese

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Re: Is a low post threat essential for a championship level team?
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2008, 03:36:50 PM »
Although I agree that you need a low post player to go to the final four... They don't have to be your traditional back to the basket, 6'10" and up player.

For example, look at Kansas and Memphis last year... their big men were 6'8-6'10 if I recall, and were more athletic and flashed out on breaks.
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/NCAA/dayone&sportCat=ncb

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Murffieus

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Re: Is a low post threat essential for a championship level team?
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2008, 07:30:38 PM »
Forget bigs 'flashing out on breaks"----what's is important is to have quality bigs that know how to play within the half court offense.

The BE and NCAA are stud orientated situations----have to have them to get to the promised land!

bilsu

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Re: Is a low post threat essential for a championship level team?
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2008, 08:39:09 PM »
MU had a good team, but the final four run was actually based on different players stepping up. Diener scored 27 points in the first game and was the reason we won. Novak hitting threes was the reason we beat Missouri. Wade embarrassed Kentucky. I think it was the Pitt game that Chapman and the little guard from Texas hit some timely threes off the bench. The luck ran out when they ran into Kansas. Kansas was bigger, stronger and more talented and MU was embarrassed by them. You do not need a center who can score, but you need a defensive presence who can rebound.

Sir Lawrence

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Re: Is a low post threat essential for a championship level team?
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2008, 08:43:30 PM »
MU had a good team, but the final four run was actually based on different players stepping up. Diener scored 27 points in the first game and was the reason we won. Novak hitting threes was the reason we beat Missouri. Wade embarrassed Kentucky. I think it was the Pitt game that Chapman and the little guard from Texas hit some timely threes off the bench. The luck ran out when they ran into Kansas. Kansas was bigger, stronger and more talented and MU was embarrassed by them. You do not need a center who can score, but you need a defensive presence who can rebound.

+1
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avid1010

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Re: Is a low post threat essential for a championship level team?
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2008, 09:16:30 PM »
MU had a good team, but the final four run was actually based on different players stepping up. Diener scored 27 points in the first game and was the reason we won. Novak hitting threes was the reason we beat Missouri. Wade embarrassed Kentucky. I think it was the Pitt game that Chapman and the little guard from Texas hit some timely threes off the bench. The luck ran out when they ran into Kansas. Kansas was bigger, stronger and more talented and MU was embarrassed by them. You do not need a center who can score, but you need a defensive presence who can rebound.

Was Syracuse all that more talented than MU?  NOT OUT OF SPITE...but TC got out-coached by one of the best in the business.  Jimmy B. had his team much more prepared for Kansas than TC did, and we know how that resulted.... I was thrilled with the final four, but we all see now what Wade was/is truly capable of. 

77ncaachamps

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Re: Is a low post threat essential for a championship level team?
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2008, 09:13:05 AM »
Was Syracuse all that more talented than MU?  NOT OUT OF SPITE...but TC got out-coached by one of the best in the business.  Jimmy B. had his team much more prepared for Kansas than TC did, and we know how that resulted.... I was thrilled with the final four, but we all see now what Wade was/is truly capable of. 

But Cuse always recruits gazelles so they had the personnel to hang with Kansas. Warrick could run. Anthony could run. Forth was slow but he knew how to play the block. Not to mention they could shoot the lights out with Anthony and McNamara and have Warrick run interference in the lanes.

Yet, Wade and others were just overwhelmed - and possibly underprepared - for a VERY talented KU team. The fact that it was a blowout early really ticked me off. And the fact that Cuse won by a few was even more annoying.
SS Marquette

Nukem2

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Re: Is a low post threat essential for a championship level team?
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2008, 09:49:49 AM »
But Cuse always recruits gazelles so they had the personnel to hang with Kansas. Warrick could run. Anthony could run. Forth was slow but he knew how to play the block. Not to mention they could shoot the lights out with Anthony and McNamara and have Warrick run interference in the lanes.

Yet, Wade and others were just overwhelmed - and possibly underprepared - for a VERY talented KU team. The fact that it was a blowout early really ticked me off. And the fact that Cuse won by a few was even more annoying.
A poor game plan for MU by TC in the Kansas game with an MU team that was more of a half court team trying to run and gun with a team that was the best full court team in the country.  Especially when diener was ailing with his shin problem. 

bma725

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Re: Is a low post threat essential for a championship level team?
« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2008, 10:02:08 AM »
A poor game plan for MU by TC in the Kansas game with an MU team that was more of a half court team trying to run and gun with a team that was the best full court team in the country.  Especially when diener was ailing with his shin problem. 

Gameplanning may have been part of it, trying to run with a running team was a bad idea.  But just as bad as the gameplanning was the performance by several of the players.  Look at the guys that were supposed to be the "shooters" on that team.  Diener, Novak, Bradley, and Chapman.  Together they went 3-28 in that game, including 2-16 from beyond the arc.  If they go out there and shoot their normal percentages, it's a different game.  And that's not something you can really blame Crean for, he can't shoot the ball for them. 

lab_warrior

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Re: Is a low post threat essential for a championship level team?
« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2008, 10:44:34 AM »
Yes yes yes yes yes...you need at least some sort of post player to win and get to the Final Four--you may not need them to SCORE, but you at least need some D and some rebounding ('97 Zona had Bramlett and Davison).  Kansas had the 3-man roto of Arthur, Kaun, and Jackson, and last year, GTown, Ohio State and Florida all had dominant big men. 
 

Canned Goods n Ammo

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Re: Is a low post threat essential for a championship level team?
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2008, 10:50:36 AM »
Gameplanning may have been part of it, trying to run with a running team was a bad idea.  But just as bad as the gameplanning was the performance by several of the players.  Look at the guys that were supposed to be the "shooters" on that team.  Diener, Novak, Bradley, and Chapman.  Together they went 3-28 in that game, including 2-16 from beyond the arc.  If they go out there and shoot their normal percentages, it's a different game.  And that's not something you can really blame Crean for, he can't shoot the ball for them. 

Don't go applying common sense to this argument.  ::)

Let's face it, the 2003 team was a very good team that got very hot in March.

The Kansas loss is certainly disappointing, but it's not like MU was undefeated all season and suddenly laid an egg. The team cooled off and got overwhelmed by a very good club.

Syracuse stayed hot, and rode Melo to the title.

Big Papi

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Re: Is a low post threat essential for a championship level team?
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2008, 11:23:04 AM »
Gameplanning may have been part of it, trying to run with a running team was a bad idea.  But just as bad as the gameplanning was the performance by several of the players.  Look at the guys that were supposed to be the "shooters" on that team.  Diener, Novak, Bradley, and Chapman.  Together they went 3-28 in that game, including 2-16 from beyond the arc.  If they go out there and shoot their normal percentages, it's a different game.  And that's not something you can really blame Crean for, he can't shoot the ball for them. 

Our shooters couldn't hit the broadside of a barn in that Kansas game.  Both layups and jumpers.  That is what cost us that game.  Gameplanning was fine.  We shot poorly, similar to the way we played in the Holy Cross game except Kansas was far superior and Diener was on fire in that game.  If Novak and Diener hit their outside shots like they did all year long.  Kansas wouldn't be able to run us to death on our missed shots.  Once we were down, we started throwing up desperation shots which lead to more easy buckets.  A more experienced TC would have figured out a way to get us more focused.

By the way score was 12-12, 6 minutes in and here is how our offense went the rest of the half when we were out scored 47 to 18:

Steve Novak missed 3 Pt. Jumper 12-14   
13:10 Dwyane Wade made Layup 14-17   
13:10   14-17 Foul on Michael Lee
13:10 Dwyane Wade missed Free Throw 14-17   
12:10 Scott Merritt missed Jumper 14-23   
11:58 Steve Novak missed 3 Pt. Jumper 14-23   
11:25 Dwyane Wade missed Layup 14-23   
11:25 Dwyane Wade missed Jumper 14-25   
11:25 Terry Sanders made Layup 16-25   
9:50 Karon Bradley missed Jumper 16-29   
9:50 Steve Novak missed 3 Pt. Jumper 16-29   
8:50 Scott Merritt missed Jumper 16-31   
8:20 Travis Diener missed Jumper 16-33   
8:20 Scott Merritt missed Jumper 16-33   
7:30 Travis Diener missed Jumper 16-35   
7:30 Robert Jackson made Layup 18-35   
7:10 Travis Diener missed Jumper 18-37   
6:40 Travis Diener missed 3 Pt. Jumper 18-39   
6:40 Robert Jackson missed Layup 18-39   
6:40 Scott Merritt missed Layup 18-39   
6:26 Scott Merritt made Free Throw 19-39   
6:26 Scott Merritt made Free Throw 20-39   
6:10 Robert Jackson made Layup 22-39   
5:05 Joe Chapman missed Jumper 22-41   
5:05 Robert Jackson made Free Throw 23-41   
5:05 Robert Jackson made Free Throw 24-41   
4:15 Dwyane Wade made Jumper 26-41   
3:50 Steve Novak missed 3 Pt. Jumper 26-44   
3:20 Dwyane Wade missed Jumper 26-46   
3:20 Robert Jackson made Tip Shot 28-46   
2:20 Robert Jackson missed Layup 28-49   
1:20 Travis Diener missed Jumper 28-54   
0:45 Steve Novak missed 3 Pt. Jumper 28-55   
0:45 Todd Townsend missed 3 Pt. Jumper 28-59   
0:45 Robert Jackson missed Layup 28-59   
0:45 Dwyane Wade made Layup 30-59   
30-59 End of the 1st half.


For the record during that stretch: 

Novak 0-5 on 3 point shots
Diener 0-5
Layups 6-10
In 5:30 seconds after the tie at 12-12, Kansas was 3-3 3 pointers, 5-6 layups/dunk, 2-2 free throws to balloon the lead to 33-16.

MuMark

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Re: Is a low post threat essential for a championship level team?
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2008, 11:31:10 AM »
Yes our shooters were ice cold but we still gave up 59 points in the first half.


59 points................... :o

mu03eng

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Re: Is a low post threat essential for a championship level team?
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2008, 12:14:32 PM »
But the point should be made, with RJax we had our most traditional, back to the basket player in the last 15 years.  We also had Merritt as a traditional 4 playing the best he would ever play at MU.  And yet we go rocked out of the final four.  So in the end I don't see how we can argue that you have to have a low post presence to win a NC.....we had one and got run out of the gym in the final four.

Personally, I think you need very talented people in a couple of places with serviceable talent in the other positions.  I think you can win a NC with 3 outstanding guards and serviceable big men who run the floor, we just haven't done it yet. :)
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bma725

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Re: Is a low post threat essential for a championship level team?
« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2008, 12:48:30 PM »
Yes our shooters were ice cold but we still gave up 59 points in the first half.


59 points................... :o

Sure, but how many of those came off of fast break opportunities because our shooters couldn't knock down a shot.  Kansas was a great running team that year, and not as good in the half court.  If we make more shots, they don't get as many easy looks, and the totals would have been different.

4everwarriors

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Re: Is a low post threat essential for a championship level team?
« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2008, 03:03:35 PM »
 Crean will never win a National Championship.
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Mayor McCheese

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Re: Is a low post threat essential for a championship level team?
« Reply #20 on: August 20, 2008, 10:29:32 PM »
Crean will never win a National Championship.

But, it's Indiana!

...anyways, maybe its safe to say that to win a National Championship, its all about timing, and how hot your team becomes is what matters?  Besides 14-16(maybe include 13 as well)... the teams are pretty even.  Obviously some better then others, but really when it comes down to it, its not so much what type of players you have, but how they perform.  Yes it might help to have a big man, but its not like a formula is set in stone on how to win a national championship.
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/NCAA/dayone&sportCat=ncb

pure genius stuff by Bill Simmons, remember to read day 2