I Find Him 100 Times More Believable Already Than...

[Coach Norman Dale]

What was the name of the monk who taught a class on classical music - it was in a large lecture hall early in the am? The monk drove down from Green Bay just to teach this class. It was a guaranteed A but there was zero learning. His teaching method was to play scratchy old LPs, all the while closing his eyes and "leading" an imaginary orchestra. Bizarre.

If memory serves me correctly his name was Horton Roe and it was a one-credit fine arts class about Opera.  A friend of mine took it the semester before I did, and in a classic piece of advice told me:  "You better take this class real soon before the guy dies."  Some of the best academic advice I ever received!!!  You were also expected to attend an opera and write a paper about it.  Unfortunately, no operas were available that semester (based on my minimal effort to find one) so I wrote about the opera I would attend if it was playing in my area.

I did attend an opera during my grad school years at Indiana; not b/c I was interested but b/c a high school friend's uncle was a big supporter of the school of music.  He invited me to go, offered to take me out to dinner, said I could bring a date and, as luck would have it, I knew a very hot co-ed who loved opera.  I thought it was fair trade, endure the opera in exchange for a great meal and time with a very fine sorority girl.  I have not been back, nor will I attend the opera again.

(EDIT:  Sorry for the late addition to this topic, when I started typing it the instructor's name had not been identified; however, after several interruptions to actually do work, by the time I posted it someone beat me to the answer.  BTW, I took the class in the early 80's so he was still going strong then.)

[ChicosBailBonds]

It's become a conditioned response after 9 years of being told he walked on water.  As usual, the truth is some where in the middle.

Yes, but it looks like many are trying to make Buzz walk on water now too....what's the difference?


Whether the haters want to admit it or not, Tom Crean's tenure was the 2nd best tenure in 90 years of Marquette basketball.  That's not walking on water, but only one person did it better then Crean at MU. 

[THEGYMBAR]

Everyone forgets the excitement of TC early on in his MU career. While not a fan of him personally I cannot say with 100% certainity I am happy he is gone. His positives outweigh negatives 10 to 1 in my opinion. The thing that sucked was his negatives were glaring ones.

So my point is that lets give Buzz some time before we make judgements. As I previously stated I think Buzz has some slipperiness in him. I like that but my guess most MU fans are not looking for slippery.

Jury is still out in my mind. Again, TC had negatives but he was best coach MU had since Al.

[Nukem2]

Its hard to knock Crean other than how his departure went down.  Sure, his personality did not please some and maybe he was a control freak and certainly was not always a great in-game coach, but its hard to knock the results and he ran a clean program paying attention to academics and character.  Now, with reagrd to Buzz, TC became the MU head coach days after his 33rd birthday.  TC's resume was no better than Buzz's.  In short, TC may well have been a riskier hire.  In the final anaysis, every hire is risky.  Time to give Buzz his due and lay off TC.  the early happenings in Buzz's MU tenure are actulally quite encouraging.

[jce]

Yes, but it looks like many are trying to make Buzz walk on water now too....what's the difference?


Whether the haters want to admit it or not, Tom Crean's tenure was the 2nd best tenure in 90 years of Marquette basketball.  That's not walking on water, but only one person did it better then Crean at MU. 

2nd best?  Forget it.  McGuire never went to a Final Four without Bo Ellis!!!   

[nola03]

What's the number I can reach you at?

Next April the number in service would be 1-800-22-11 found in the 7th district of the Big East neighborhood.

And nukem, I would respectfully disagree with you on your point that TC's resume was no better then Buzz'. If I recall correctly, Crean was the Associate Head Coach with Tom Izzo. It can be argued that Associate Head Coach at MSU is more impressive then 14-17  Head Coach at New Orleans.

[warthogdriver]

"If memory serves me correctly his name was Horton Roe and it was a one-credit fine arts class about Opera.  A friend of mine took it the semester before I did, and in a classic piece of advice told me:  "You better take this class real soon before the guy dies."  Some of the best academic advice I ever received!!!  You were also expected to attend an opera and write a paper about it." 

Br Roe was actually a very nasty guy. He would throw erasers at people who had the audacity to fall asleep in his class. After getting their attention he would then berate and belittle them in a very personal way. And you're right - the paper was supposed to be a report from a classical music event you went to see at the PAC in Milwaukee. I have a feeling most of us went to the Library rather than the PAC.

As to your other point, going to the opera as date fodder, the guys in my squadron were just talking about things they've done in the past in order to get horizontal with females. It is amazing what guys will do for the sake of cutting a slice...

[Nukem2]

Associate HC is better experience than HC??  Thats nonsense. An AHC is nice, but its still #2.  Izzo was still in charge.

[jce]

Associate HC is better experience than HC??  Thats nonsense. An AHC is nice, but its still #2.  Izzo was still in charge.

Now, you would of course not feel that the head coach at Carroll College would have better experience right?  How about a D2 place like Mankato?

[Nukem2]

We are discussing Div I hoops here.  Are we not.

[nola03]

Associate HC is better experience than HC??  Thats nonsense. An AHC is nice, but its still #2.  Izzo was still in charge.

As I wrote, I respectfully disagree. To expand it further it can be argued that being an Associate HC and laying the foundation at MSU for 3 Final Fours and a National Title as a #2 (in your words) is more impressive then the experience gleaned from one season as the #1 guy for a 14-17 team.

More to the point, I think you're off base in writing that Crean's resume was no better then Buzz' and that Crean may have been a riskier hire. It's clear looking at the programs (or, progrums) involved, NCAA success, and current job title when hired that combined as a whole package the edge would point to Crean.

[Nukem2]

Wow, Crean must have been responsible for Izzo's MSU success..!!  Bottom line is TC was an assistant.  Izzo typicaly has outstanding staffs.  TC was a part of those staffs.  TC was 2+ years younger than Buzz upon taking over at MU.  Great, but he was still a risky hire. Also consider that Buzz's UNO experience was under pretty harsh conditions that he can draw upon. Don't want to belabor this, but being an ACH just isn't the same.

[Pakuni]

You guys really are splitting hairs here.
If either guy's resume when accepting the MU job had an edge, it's pretty negligible.
Both were longtime assistants who'd bounced around a bit, gained reputations as stellar recruiters and tireless workers and worked under some of the top coaches in the business.
Crean helped build a very good program into Final Four program.
Buzz helped build a miserable program into a Sweet Sixteen program.
Crean served as an associate head coach when MSU was at its peak.
Buzz served as head coach in one of the most untenable situations imaginable and, at least on the court, acquitted himself well.

Potayto/Potahto

Though I do think nola is making a bit much of the job title. Being an associate head coach = assistant coach with a better title.

[ecompt]

I took two Horton Roe Fine Arts classes--the guy was a legend. If you showed up for every class you got an A. He played lots of records and didn't care what you did while you were there. Those classes really helped my GPA.

[nola03]

Fair enough. To each their own. nukem stated he felt Crean didn't have the resume Buzz did. I feel Crean had a better one when you look at the schools involved and success achieved. It's a message board.

pakuni, I'd always expect you to write that I'm making too much of something but if the title doesn't mean anything why isn't every #1 assistant named as an Associate Head Coach? I'm not saying the title bequeaths magic powers upon Crean or anyone else but it isn't etched on the nameplate just for the hell of it -- he had to earn it some way.

Since you're a research guy, it'd be an interesting subject to investigate: in the BCS conferences, how many programs have a designated Associate Head Coach.

[Pakuni]

Since you're a research guy, it'd be an interesting subject to investigate: in the BCS conferences, how many programs have a designated Associate Head Coach.

I may have too much time on my hands, but not that much time. I suspect a great number do, however.
Tony Benford, for example, was associate head coach at both New Mexico and Arizona State. Mark Montgomery is associate head coach at Michigan State. Mike Dunlap was just named associate head coach at Arizona. Jamie Dixon was associate head coach at Pitt before being named head coach. Ditto for Sean Miller at Xavier. John Groce is associate head coach at Ohio State.
Methinks it's not such a rarity.

And, just so you know, one Buzz Williams served as associate head coach at Colorado State the year the Rams made their only NCAA tournament appearance in the last 18 years.
Now that I know that he's carried such a lofty designation, it's pretty clear he has a better resume than Crean had when he landed the MU gig. 

[warthogdriver]

I took two Horton Roe Fine Arts classes--the guy was a legend. If you showed up for every class you got an A. He played lots of records and didn't care what you did while you were there. Those classes really helped my GPA.

I remember the requirement to be there every class which was a once a week gig and, unfortunately, with a 0700 start. Since it convened Thursday mornings and I was often at the Lanche on Wednesday evenings I considered 90% of the merit in earning the A to be in the effort required to get out of bed in order to make the class.

I recall that we sat there for 90 minutes listening to Br Roe's scratchy old LPs; he would inject long-winded oratory on the "real long-hair music." I saw him walking across campus one time in the dead of winter - all he had was that cardigan - no jacket - and nothing but his monk sandals on his feet. He was a character if nothing else.

There was another monk who taught at MU - Br Sebastian Moore. I got to know him rather well. Seb was a Brit and a true scholar. I didn't like having to take Theo or Phil classes but some of the most intriguing course work I did was with Br Sebastian Moore and Fr Davitt.

[nola03]

I may have too much time on my hands, but not that much time. I suspect a great number do, however.
Tony Benford, for example, was associate head coach at both New Mexico and Arizona State. Mark Montgomery is associate head coach at Michigan State. Mike Dunlap was just named associate head coach at Arizona. Jamie Dixon was associate head coach at Pitt before being named head coach. Ditto for Sean Miller at Xavier. John Groce is associate head coach at Ohio State.
Methinks it's not such a rarity.

And, just so you know, one Buzz Williams served as associate head coach at Colorado State the year the Rams made their only NCAA tournament appearance in the last 18 years.
Now that I know that he's carried such a lofty designation, it's pretty clear he has a better resume than Crean had when he landed the MU gig. 

It's still an interesting subject to see if there is any documentation to it. Now that I know Buzz was Associate Head Coach at Colorado State I'm even more concerned he took a step down to just be an Assistant for Texas A&M -- a school that didn't even interview him for their HC position a year ago. 

As usual over the last few weeks, I agree to disagree on the subject.

[79Warrior]

Can any of you guys ever just watch a positive piece of Buzz without taking a dump all over the previous coach like he was satan or anything? Give it a f-ing rest o.k. We know a lot of you hated Tom C. He's gone. Stop looking back and look forward with what we have now. Crean's record (wins/losses, graduating players) speaks for itself.

Agreed. for a coach who apparently sucked 10 ways from sunday he sure attracts plenty of posts. seems like plenty of boys here are still hot for the girlfriend who dumped them.
 

[ChicosBailBonds]

Wow, Crean must have been responsible for Izzo's MSU success..!!  Bottom line is TC was an assistant.  Izzo typicaly has outstanding staffs.  TC was a part of those staffs.  TC was 2+ years younger than Buzz upon taking over at MU.  Great, but he was still a risky hire. Also consider that Buzz's UNO experience was under pretty harsh conditions that he can draw upon. Don't want to belabor this, but being an ACH just isn't the same.

I think Crean was head and shoulders above any other assistant Izzo had.  Izzo has said that Crean was his best assistant and it's hard to argue with him on that based on success of the rest of the Izzo tree.

At the time Crean was hired, Izzo was arguably at the top of the college basketball food chain for those years.  Top Associate Coach from the top program in the country was a significant feather in the cap and hailed by many experts as a smart hire with minimal downside.

Of course that's also because of the situation....MU was coming of a losing season, not a NCAA season so the way in which fans, writers, experts perceive a hire is often based on what situation they are currently in.

[MUBasketball]

Next April the number in service would be 1-800-22-11 found in the 7th district of the Big East neighborhood.

And nukem, I would respectfully disagree with you on your point that TC's resume was no better then Buzz'. If I recall correctly, Crean was the Associate Head Coach with Tom Izzo. It can be argued that Associate Head Coach at MSU is more impressive then 14-17  Head Coach at New Orleans.

[/b]

Give it an F'ing rest.

Yes, I agree that all the Crean-haters now that he left is getting ridiculous. I was a huge Crean supporter and was sad to see him go. On the flipside, I was very pleased with the Buzz hire and think he'll do great.

People that constantly piss and moan about the 14-17 record as a head coach make themselves look foolish. You have to consider the team, the situation, etc. 14-17 taking over some programs at that point (VCU for example), would be terrible. 14-17 at New Orleans, with the job he did in other areas, should be commended. Let's not forget he laid the groundwork for a 19 win season this year.

[augoman]

wow, Horton Roe!!  I remember my last class w/ him, I'd wait until he passed my row taking attendance, then get up and tiptoe out the door.  When we took the final (yes, final!)  I knew about half of it, so I answered the questions to the multiple choice section to be T-F-F, T-F-F, etc. and then wrote a note on the paper thanking him for arranging it in 2/3 time (waltz tempo).  Naturally, I got the A.

[reinko]

Back in the fall of 2002, Steve Novak rarely missed "History of the American Musical". 

Hell, his presentation on Hello Dolly was amazing.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Back in the fall of 2002, Steve Novak rarely missed "History of the American Musical". 

Hell, his presentation on Hello Dolly was amazing.

Are you sure, word is that Crean's players didn't attend class and since Novak was a Crean player how could he have done that presentation?   

[reinko]

it could have been that other 6'10" white kid that rocked nothing but MU sweats and warm up jackets 

But for reals...a good friend of mine did some tutoring for the team, and I remember him telling me that if Crean found out guys were skipping class, he would make them sit in chairs at center court while the rest of the team ran laps around them