Baseball Pissing Match

[IAmMarquette]

People just view sports differently, some are old school, some are not....some in the middle.

I have a question for IAMMarquette and Hards....do you think the Steroids issue in baseball is overblown?


I ask this because most people I talk to about celebrations and "the way things are today" could give a rip about the steroids.  Conversely, those that think the steroids issue is a big deal are also the same types of folks that believe things like the celebrations and the "ME" attitude in sports is problematic.

I'm curious where you stand.

Absolutely against steroids. Not crazy about excessive celebrations. Maybe I'm seeing this one through blue-and-gold glasses, but I really don't have a problem with the latest walk-off celebration.

I understand that it's situational...actually, I think that's the key. Think about it:

The Brewers are all but mathematically eliminated from the postseason. They've been struggling since May. They won a home game on a walk off (I know it's redundant) in the 12th inning. Let the guys have some fun. They are, after all, playing a game.

That's not to say they aren't working; in fact, I'd wager that professional athletes are among the hardest-working people on earth. I'm dead serious. But at the same time, they're playing a game. They're playing to win (channeling Herm Edwards). They should be allowed to enjoy it when they do.

'94 points to Tiger Woods as an example of someone who celebrates his own accomplishments, but not at the expense of others. I have a couple of problems with that statement:

1) What about the Brewers' celebration leads you to believe that it was done to spite the Giants specifically? If you believe that it was, then you also believe that,
2) Tiger's celebrations are no different in that his victories, like the Brewers, or any other competitor in any other sport, come at the expense of his opponents. Do you think Rocco Mediate was offended when Tiger slammed his cap after sinking the big putt to go to a playoff? Do you think Rocco Mediate believed Tiger's celebration of Tiger's big play (and eventual victory) was intended to needle Rocco Mediate? I certainly hope you don't, because that's absurd.

How is this Brewers celebration any different?

[jmayer1]

I understand that they involve the same player, but I do not see what relevance the Dodger incident has in this discussion.  Whether that incident was right or wrong (I think it was stupid) should not factor into determining whether this celebration was right or wrong. 

In reference to Tiger, I was referring to the fist pumps that he's done a million times, not the hat throwing which he's only done once (that I can recall). 

I brought up those players because nearly every baseball fan would consider them all very professional.

I'll ask again, did you have a problem with Soriano or Al's antics? 

You've never seen a basketball player rip his shirt off after hitting a game winner?  Really?  NBA guys do it all the time.  In fact, I've seen Wade do it on multiple occasions (he usually has something on underneath and tosses his jersey into the stands).

The Super Bowl Shuffle was a choreographed dance video made before the team had even done anything in the playoffs.  It's prolly one of the most arrogant and cocky things any team has ever done (even if it was for charity).  If your ok with that but not ok with what the Brewers did, then you need to look up the definition of hypocrite.

I thought the Michigan State thing was a little classless, mainly because a) It was meant to show up the ND players b) It was done at ND

Once again, the Brewers did it at home, after the game ended, in their home park.

I'm done debating this issue with you.  I like for sports to be fun and I think what the Brewers did was absolutely done in that spirit.  If you disagree, there's not much I can do to change your opinion.

[MarquetteFan94]

Translation: Waaaaaaaaahhhhhh!

Very well said....eloquent and well crafted. 

[MarquetteFan94]

Not crazy about excessive celebrations. Maybe I'm seeing this one through blue-and-gold glasses, but I really don't have a problem with the latest walk-off celebration.

Really?  Which is it?  You're not crazy about excess celebrations or you don't have a a problem with the Brewers walk off celebration?

'94 points to Tiger Woods as an example of someone who celebrates his own accomplishments, but not at the expense of others. I have a couple of problems with that statement:

1) What about the Brewers' celebration leads you to believe that it was done to spite the Giants specifically? If you believe that it was, then you also believe that,
2) Tiger's celebrations are no different in that his victories, like the Brewers, or any other competitor in any other sport, come at the expense of his opponents. Do you think Rocco Mediate was offended when Tiger slammed his cap after sinking the big putt to go to a playoff? Do you think Rocco Mediate believed Tiger's celebration of Tiger's big play (and eventual victory) was intended to needle Rocco Mediate? I certainly hope you don't, because that's absurd.

How is this Brewers celebration any different?

Did you even watch last year's US Open?  The only time Tiger's hat came off his head was to shake hands with his playing partner.  In golf, unless it's the Ryder or Presidents Cup, the only thing to celebrate is individual accomplishments...it's you against the field.  The only other sport similar in that respect is auto racing.  When Castroneves climbs the fence in Indy is he disrespecting the other drivers? 

No, I don't think Rocco was bothered because they had a camera and microphone in his face during the broadcast when Tiger's putt went in....how you can continue and try to compare Tiger's celebrations to a team choreographed routine is amazing.

Did you see how Tiger celebrated his win on Monday with a hand shake?  Imagine if he and Stevie went into a dance routine on the green after winning his next major...would you think it was ridiculous or they were just having fun?

I honestly cannot believe people are defending what went on here....if the Cubs did anything close to that I'd be embarrassed....I must hate fun.

[wadesworld]

Really?  Which is it?  You're not crazy about excess celebrations or you don't have a a problem with the Brewers walk off celebration?

Uhh, maybe it's that the Brewers walk-off celebration wasn't excessive, so he had no problem with it, but he has a problem with excessive celebrations?  I could be wrong, but that is what my best guess would be.

I would like to know what is the difference between what the Brewers did and what is normally done after a walk-off home run?  That there was actually some originality to it?  How is jumping on home plate for 5 minutes not disrespectful, but this is?  The game is over, they aren't taunting anybody, they are celebrating a win and having a bit of fun.  If you think that the Brewers should act like they have been there and that it was disrespectful, then why don't all teams act like they have been there when there is a walk-off?  If you want teams to act like they have been there, then after walk-off home runs, the player should run around the bases, touch home plate with the team waiting with fist bumps at the 1st step of the dugout, and then they should walk onto the field, get in a line, and high 5 each other, followed by a walk to the clubhouse.  Some people on here are absolutely ridiculous.  Don't hold double standards, if this is disrespectful, then so is the normal practice after a walk-off home run.

[Hards Alumni]

Absolutely against steroids. Not crazy about excessive celebrations. Maybe I'm seeing this one through blue-and-gold glasses, but I really don't have a problem with the latest walk-off celebration.

I understand that it's situational...actually, I think that's the key. Think about it:

The Brewers are all but mathematically eliminated from the postseason. They've been struggling since May. They won a home game on a walk off (I know it's redundant) in the 12th inning. Let the guys have some fun. They are, after all, playing a game.

That's not to say they aren't working; in fact, I'd wager that professional athletes are among the hardest-working people on earth. I'm dead serious. But at the same time, they're playing a game. They're playing to win (channeling Herm Edwards). They should be allowed to enjoy it when they do.

'94 points to Tiger Woods as an example of someone who celebrates his own accomplishments, but not at the expense of others. I have a couple of problems with that statement:

1) What about the Brewers' celebration leads you to believe that it was done to spite the Giants specifically? If you believe that it was, then you also believe that,
2) Tiger's celebrations are no different in that his victories, like the Brewers, or any other competitor in any other sport, come at the expense of his opponents. Do you think Rocco Mediate was offended when Tiger slammed his cap after sinking the big putt to go to a playoff? Do you think Rocco Mediate believed Tiger's celebration of Tiger's big play (and eventual victory) was intended to needle Rocco Mediate? I certainly hope you don't, because that's absurd.

How is this Brewers celebration any different?

completely agree.

hate steroids, loved that the team was still able to have fun despite being out of the playoffs... shows that they care about the game, and aren't just going through the motions.

and yes, 94, you are a fun hater, and wade actually makes a valid point.

[TallTitan34]

Part of the problem I have, is that the Brewers, like always, are going to complain when there is retaliation.

It's simple.  If you don't want get hit in the head.  Don't piss people off.

[IAmMarquette]

Really?  Which is it?  You're not crazy about excess celebrations or you don't have a a problem with the Brewers walk off celebration?

Did you even watch last year's US Open?  The only time Tiger's hat came off his head was to shake hands with his playing partner.  In golf, unless it's the Ryder or Presidents Cup, the only thing to celebrate is individual accomplishments...it's you against the field.  The only other sport similar in that respect is auto racing.  When Castroneves climbs the fence in Indy is he disrespecting the other drivers? 

No, I don't think Rocco was bothered because they had a camera and microphone in his face during the broadcast when Tiger's putt went in....how you can continue and try to compare Tiger's celebrations to a team choreographed routine is amazing.

Did you see how Tiger celebrated his win on Monday with a hand shake?  Imagine if he and Stevie went into a dance routine on the green after winning his next major...would you think it was ridiculous or they were just having fun?

I honestly cannot believe people are defending what went on here....if the Cubs did anything close to that I'd be embarrassed....I must hate fun.

Fine. I mixed up my tournaments. The point still stands: do you think Tiger threw his hat after winning the Arnold Palmer Invitational to show up the guys he beat? Do you really, REALLY think that the Brewers did their celebration to show up the Giants? Hell, do you think TO did the Sharpie thing to show up the 9ers or whoever it was he was playing in that game? No. He didn't. Tiger did it because he was excited. The Brewers did it to have some fun. TO did it because he's a jackass. The one thing each of these celebrations, choreographed or otherwise, have in common is that they were and are only about the persons who performed them.

And Wadesworld, thanks for clarifying that I can be against EXCESSIVE celebrations but be OK with the Fielder Earthquake.

[TallTitan34]

Ken Macha has twice this year asked for pitchers to be suspended for throwing at his guys.  How about you just tell your guys to stop being clowns so they don't get thrown at.

If your going to do that fine.  But don't complain when you get drilled in the ear hole your next time up.

[MarquetteFan94]

Uhh, maybe it's that the Brewers walk-off celebration wasn't excessive, so he had no problem with it, but he has a problem with excessive celebrations?  I could be wrong, but that is what my best guess would be.

I would like to know what is the difference between what the Brewers did and what is normally done after a walk-off home run?  That there was actually some originality to it?  How is jumping on home plate for 5 minutes not disrespectful, but this is?  The game is over, they aren't taunting anybody, they are celebrating a win and having a bit of fun.  If you think that the Brewers should act like they have been there and that it was disrespectful, then why don't all teams act like they have been there when there is a walk-off?  If you want teams to act like they have been there, then after walk-off home runs, the player should run around the bases, touch home plate with the team waiting with fist bumps at the 1st step of the dugout, and then they should walk onto the field, get in a line, and high 5 each other, followed by a walk to the clubhouse.  Some people on here are absolutely ridiculous.  Don't hold double standards, if this is disrespectful, then so is the normal practice after a walk-off home run.

If you honestly don't think that was an excessive celebration you need to take the homer glasses off....if the Cubs did this you'd be all over it with youtube clips, nicknames and espn power rankings.

You don't see a difference between what the Brewers did to a 'normal' walk-off celebration?  The difference is they looked like fools.  There are plenty who think so.  Should they stop having fun playing the game because they're in 4th place?  Of course not.  I'm pretty sure I could muster up some fun if I was making $10M a year playing baseball.  Original or not, it was ridiculous.  They got back to 4 games under .500 and celebrated like they accomplished something.  

All teams don't "act like they've been there" with normal walk-off HR celebrations because it's rare and exciting enough on its own.....choreography is usually not necessary.

They were clearly waiting for this moment to happen for quite some time...it's sad.  You can picture Fielder saying, "remember guys the next time I hit a walk-off HR we're going to do that thing we practiced ok?  So be ready."

Maybe Jerry Kelly will do a dance routine or jump in the pond if he sinks a putt on 18 at the BMW this weekend to tie for 9th...it would be original.  (I know you have a tough time with analogies, so humor me.)

[MarquetteFan94]

completely agree.

hate steroids, loved that the team was still able to have fun despite being out of the playoffs... shows that they care about the game, and aren't just going through the motions.

and yes, 94, you are a fun hater, and wade actually makes a valid point.

Hards....from reading your posts you seem like a barrel of monkeys yourself.  Sounds like you're suprised wadesworld made a valid point in your opinion...I understand.

[TallTitan34]

Uhh, maybe it's that the Brewers walk-off celebration wasn't excessive, so he had no problem with it, but he has a problem with excessive celebrations? 

Are we talking about the same celebration?

[wadesworld]

What was excessive about the celebration? I still haven't seen anybody explain it to me. That it was choreographed? So all handshakes with teammates are excessive? Or are those spur of the moment and they keep, by some crazy coincidence, coming up with the exact same handshake every time? If someone can give me a good reason for why it was excessive or disrespectful I might consider the argument, but all I see are questions about my explanation without 1 of their own.

And what analogies do I have trouble understanding? It's funny that I'm the only 1 who makes personal attacks in this thread and no Cubs fans do that. Er...?

[MarquetteFan94]

Fine. I mixed up my tournaments. The point still stands: do you think Tiger threw his hat after winning the Arnold Palmer Invitational to show up the guys he beat? Do you really, REALLY think that the Brewers did their celebration to show up the Giants? Hell, do you think TO did the Sharpie thing to show up the 9ers or whoever it was he was playing in that game? No. He didn't. Tiger did it because he was excited. The Brewers did it to have some fun. TO did it because he's a jackass. The one thing each of these celebrations, choreographed or otherwise, have in common is that they were and are only about the persons who performed them.

And Wadesworld, thanks for clarifying that I can be against EXCESSIVE celebrations but be OK with the Fielder Earthquake.

We're obviously never going to agree on this but, again, I don't understand how you're trying to compare Tiger sinking a 20+ foot putt on Sunday on 18 to win the tournament....for his 5th tournament win in a row....he wasn't even playing with the guy that came in second to the Brewers thing.

No, I don't think the Brewers were trying to show up the Giants intentionally but how do you think it was taken?  TO is a fool....which is why I brought him up...if you're a great player people will notice.  How many end zone dances did Barry Sanders, Jerry Rice or Walter Payton ever do?  

[TallTitan34]

What was excessive about the celebration?

I'd say 30 grown men choreographing a walk-off home-run celebration is excessive. The fact it was even planned is excessive.

You realize it wouldn't be all over the news if it wasn't excessive.

[LON]

I'd say 30 grown men choreographing a walk-off home-run celebration is excessive. The fact it was even planned is excessive.

You realize it wouldn't be all over the news if it wasn't excessive.

I'd rather have that on the news than say, fans pouring beer on a player during a game or making racial slurs to your own RF...

[wadesworld]

I'd say 30 grown men choreographing a walk-off home-run celebration is excessive. The fact it was even planned is excessive.

You realize it wouldn't be all over the news if it wasn't excessive.

What news?  ESPN?  I think it probably would, as it was a walk-off home run by one of the biggest stars in the MLB against a team that is in 2nd in the NL Wild Card race.

[GGGG]

I'd rather have that on the news than say, fans pouring beer on a player during a game or making racial slurs to your own RF...

I wouldn't go too far with the racial slurs accusation....I mean, it's Milton Bradley.

[pillardean]

I wouldn't go too far with the racial slurs accusation....I mean, it's Milton Bradley.

It isn't only Bradley that has brought it up.

[copious1218]

I'd rather have that on the news than say, fans pouring beer on a player during a game or making racial slurs to your own RF...

There is a clear distinction here - drunken fans (which every team has) vs. the players.

EDIT:  I forgot to add that as a Cubs fan I am embarrassed that somebody dumped a beer on Victorino and perhaps called Bradley some racial slurs.  (I say perhaps because there is no proof, however, Jacque Jones and Dusty Baker have said this has happened as well).

[ChicosBailBonds]

I'd say 30 grown men choreographing a walk-off home-run celebration is excessive. The fact it was even planned is excessive.

You realize it wouldn't be all over the news if it wasn't excessive.

+1   Dancing with the Stars

[LON]

There is a clear distinction here - drunken fans (which every team has) vs. the players.

EDIT:  I forgot to add that as a Cubs fan I am embarrassed that somebody dumped a beer on Victorino and perhaps called Bradley some racial slurs.  (I say perhaps because there is no proof, however, Jacque Jones and Dusty Baker have said this has happened as well).

I only brought it up because us Brewers fans are perfect.

Although, the beer thing isn't new.  Braun was getting things (may not have been beer specifically) tossed at him last year at Wrigley.

[pillardean]

There is a clear distinction here - drunken fans (which every team has) vs. the players.

EDIT:  I forgot to add that as a Cubs fan I am embarrassed that somebody dumped a beer on Victorino and perhaps called Bradley some racial slurs.  (I say perhaps because there is no proof, however, Jacque Jones and Dusty Baker have said this has happened as well).

I for one want to jump all over the Cubs fans for those incidents.  God I wish I could, but I really can't because you are correct in that drunken fans with inward racism and jealousy do lousy things.

I remember a few years ago there being a piece down on Theirry Henry in the EPL and how strongly he was criticized for his color, especially on the road.  It's sad but true.

I will say, however, that the midday drunken baffoonery is most previlant at Wrigley Field, and that one incident in one year someone would be able to brush it off; but with multiple incidents during multiple years directed towards someone's race rather than calling them a "bum" because of their poor average does show poorly on not only the fans of a franchise, but the franchise itself for not trying harder to give a damn about the problem.  (Couldn't refuse the jab)

That is far worse than a team choreagraphed celebration.  At this point last year I would have said the Brewer's celebration to be corny or out of taste-but at this point, anything works for me to try and kick them in the ahs a bit and help the team get motivated to finish off the season on a high note.

[copious1218]

I for one want to jump all over the Cubs fans for those incidents.  God I wish I could, but I really can't because you are correct in that drunken fans with inward racism and jealousy do lousy things.

I remember a few years ago there being a piece down on Theirry Henry in the EPL and how strongly he was criticized for his color, especially on the road.  It's sad but true.

I will say, however, that the midday drunken baffoonery is most previlant at Wrigley Field, and that one incident in one year someone would be able to brush it off; but with multiple incidents during multiple years directed towards someone's race rather than calling them a "bum" because of their poor average does show poorly on not only the fans of a franchise, but the franchise itself for not trying harder to give a damn about the problem.  (Couldn't refuse the jab)

That is far worse than a team choreagraphed celebration.  At this point last year I would have said the Brewer's celebration to be corny or out of taste-but at this point, anything works for me to try and kick them in the ahs a bit and help the team get motivated to finish off the season on a high note.

The guy that threw the beer was caught (I stopped following and do not know what has happened since).  As far as what people say in the stands, it's pretty hard to regulate unless someone tells the usher immediately.  (Example - I went to a baseball game at Miller Park between the Brewers and the Mets.  A family of four - dad, mom, and two kids no older than 12 were wearing Mets jerseys.  A bunch of drunken Brewer fans proceed to call the entire family a bunch of f@g$ - you think anything happened to them?)

I agree that it reflects poorly on a franchise and I wish there was more that could be done or would be done.  However, I also believe that this celebration reflects poorly on the Brewers - it was not their fans - it was their players.  They have already rubbed at least 4 teams the wrong way this year - it's not just a coincidence. 

P.S.  Didn't the Brewers have an opening day 10-15 years ago where the give away was a free baseball and hundreds if not thousands of baseballs were thrown onto the field?  Drunken fans are drunken fans wherever they are.  More prevalent at Wrigley?  Maybe - but the people in the bleachers at Wrigley are rarely true Cubs fans anyway.

[IAmMarquette]

We're obviously never going to agree on this but, again, I don't understand how you're trying to compare Tiger sinking a 20+ foot putt on Sunday on 18 to win the tournament....for his 5th tournament win in a row....he wasn't even playing with the guy that came in second to the Brewers thing.

No, I don't think the Brewers were trying to show up the Giants intentionally but how do you think it was taken?  TO is a fool....which is why I brought him up...if you're a great player people will notice.  How many end zone dances did Barry Sanders, Jerry Rice or Walter Payton ever do?  

You're probably right on the first point.

I understand your point about the choreography. That begs the question, though: aren't all walk-off homer celebrations, to a certain extent, choreographed? It's not like mobbing the home run hitter at the plate and jumping up and down in unison is an original thing. Hell, look at the Yankees, who have their own wrinkle on it, with the hitter tossing his helmet up and 2 or 3 guys scrambling for it like the bridal bouquet at a wedding (could have gone with garter, but a thinly-veiled shot at the Yankees is tough to pass up). Does that bug you as much as the Fielder Earthquake (for lack of a better term)?

I meant it when I said I was against excessive celebrations. Especially those that are "all about me" (different for Tiger or any golfer/tennis player, as it is, in fact, all about them) in the context of a team sport. Landon Donovan scored a goal in the Confed Cup this summer, on a beautiful setup, and after scoring ran to the corner, pointing at himself and saying "ME!" over and over again. Not anything outrageous, but classless. Soriano's "You can't see ME" was all about him. TO's...everything...was all about him. The Earthquake, on the other hand, was for the Brewers, as a team, to enjoy. I have a hard time finding fault in team celebrations, provided their intent is to celebrate as a team, rather than to show up their opponents.

I'll say it again (and this is a general comment, not directed at you, '94): the main reason everybody "hates" the Brewers is because they've become a competitive club. When they were losing 100 games a year, nobody gave a sh!t. The same could be said of the Vikings. Before Randy Moss, the Vikings, for me, were an afterthought. Then they started winning, and I (and I'm sure I'm not the only one) started genuinely disliking them. The only thing that changed was the fact that they started winning.