This Says It All

[4everwarriors]

After 9 seasons of Crean-o-mania including a FF, entry into the Big East, the Al, $$$$, charter air travel, yada, yada, and more yada, Marquette is still looked at, as Billy Packer so succinctly put it, as a MID-MAJOR program.

So Crean, for all his antics and side shows, didn't elevate the program beyond the level at which he inherited it. Instead the end result is his stock escalated and we're just where we started.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Or, perhaps it takes someone like a Crean to elevate it....ever think of it that way?

As much as some of you hated Crean, he made a world of difference to many players, reporters, etc.  Perception is reality, regardless if he is liked or not.

Now it's time to see if any old coach can do the job as many here have implied

[TallTitan34]

When Crean was our coach I do believe that did help in considering us a MAJOR program.  I think the next coach who is hired says alot about if we are a mid-major or major program.

I have a sick feeling some of the Crean haters (prior to his depature) are going to see how good we had it when he was here.

[NCMUFan]

Crean did Marquette a lot of good in raising our perception of being a big time program.  We are in much better shape than 9 years ago.  I believe we will hire an excellent coach to replace Crean.  Why are people always so negative?

[MUsoxfan]

Billy Packer's an pretty boy.   Marquette is in the top half of the best basketball conference in the land.    This is a major program we're fans of.     I find it hard to think of even 20 schools that are more "major" than us. 

[ATWizJr]

amen sox fan (i hope that's the red sox, not the pale hose)  packer is an overrated, average, ACC shill who was resented the attention McGuire got, especially when they were on the broadcast together.

[79Warrior]

Or, perhaps it takes someone like a Crean to elevate it....ever think of it that way?

As much as some of you hated Crean, he made a world of difference to many players, reporters, etc.  Perception is reality, regardless if he is liked or not.

Now it's time to see if any old coach can do the job as many here have implied

Totally agree. I would venture a guess ESPN Gameday will be in Bloomington before it returns to milwaukee. Crean was an outstanding promoter while at MU. Youcan almost tell by the fear in the boards how much Crean meant to MU.

[MUsoxfan]

Or, perhaps it takes someone like a Crean to elevate it....ever think of it that way?

As much as some of you hated Crean, he made a world of difference to many players, reporters, etc.  Perception is reality, regardless if he is liked or not.

Now it's time to see if any old coach can do the job as many here have implied

Totally agree. I would venture a guess ESPN Gameday will be in Bloomington before it returns to milwaukee. Crean was an outstanding promoter while at MU. Youcan almost tell by the fear in the boards how much Crean meant to MU.

I agree that he was an outstanding promoter.   He's like the PT Barnum of college basketball.    In the last few days I've come to realize that he's more of a salesman than a coach.   With the talent he's had, this program should have had much more postseason success. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

Yup.  He had us in the national spotlight all the timean that is not only important but its priceless.

As I've said often, he will be VERY difficult to replace.  There are some guys, but what Rosiak is reporting is not a list that I would say are the guys that would capture that.

Let's hope a rabbit is up someone's sleeve.

[4everwarriors]

Or a monkey jumps out of someone's ass.

[CTWarrior]

Billy Packer's an pretty boy.  Marquette is in the top half of the best basketball conference in the land.    This is a major program we're fans of.     I find it hard to think of even 20 schools that are more "major" than us. 

Not so hard, really:

Connecticut
Louisville
Georgetown
Syracuse
Pittsburgh
North Carolina
Duke
Maryland
Kentucky
LSU
Arkansas
Tennessee
Florida
Indiana
Wisconsin
Michigan State
Illinois
Xavier
Kansas
Oklahoma
Texas
Oklahoma State
Gonzaga
UCLA
Arizona
Memphis

That's 26 off the top of my head in less than 2 minutes.  I'm sure there are more.  Basically just about every school that is the University of a State or a State University in one of the big 6 conferences are also strategically in a better position than us (Like Michigan, Minnesota, Colorado, Missouri, Oregon, North Carolina State, West Virginia, etc). Besides that, there are lots of schools we are in a group with, like Villanova.

We are a top 50 program, and probably closer to a top 30 program.  RIGHT NOW. But like it or not, we are closer to a group with schools like Villanova, Saint Johns, Clemson, etc than we are to UCLA, Kansas, Kentucky, etc.  We are dependent on the coach to make the program.  (See what happened to Nova after Massimino left, DePaul after the elder Meyer, Seton Hall after Carlesimo, Saint John's after Carnesseca, Georgetown after the elder Thompson, us after McGuire). 

[mugrack]

MU is one screwed up coach hiring away, from looking up at DePaul and St. Johns in the Big East

[tower912]

So, it is looking like Crean took the program to the big-time, rather than the program taking Crean to the big-time.   It is looking more like we were the Tom Crean Show at Marquette, rather than the Marquette Show with Tom Crean.   That it took a hyper used car snake oil salesman to get us onto college game day, to make Katz, Bilas, Forde, Vitale to give two craps about MU.   So, what we are now hoping for is someone who is exactly like Crean, only better with the X's and O's, and with a personality that will soothe PRN. 

[MUsoxfan]

Billy Packer's an pretty boy.  Marquette is in the top half of the best basketball conference in the land.    This is a major program we're fans of.     I find it hard to think of even 20 schools that are more "major" than us. 

Not so hard, really:

Connecticut
Louisville
Georgetown
Syracuse
Pittsburgh
North Carolina
Duke
Maryland
Kentucky
LSU
Arkansas
Tennessee
Florida
Indiana
Wisconsin
Michigan State
Illinois
Xavier
Kansas
Oklahoma
Texas
Oklahoma State
Gonzaga
UCLA
Arizona
Memphis

That's 26 off the top of my head in less than 2 minutes.  I'm sure there are more.  Basically just about every school that is the University of a State or a State University in one of the big 6 conferences are also strategically in a better position than us (Like Michigan, Minnesota, Colorado, Missouri, Oregon, North Carolina State, West Virginia, etc). Besides that, there are lots of schools we are in a group with, like Villanova.

We are a top 50 program, and probably closer to a top 30 program.  RIGHT NOW. But like it or not, we are closer to a group with schools like Villanova, Saint Johns, Clemson, etc than we are to UCLA, Kansas, Kentucky, etc.  We are dependent on the coach to make the program.  (See what happened to Nova after Massimino left, DePaul after the elder Meyer, Seton Hall after Carlesimo, Saint John's after Carnesseca, Georgetown after the elder Thompson, us after McGuire). 

I disagree with some of those, but you're right.   We're probably in the 25-30 range at this point in time today.    Not in the past...or the future.   I still think it's a hell of an opportunity that many coaches would love to jump on

[CTWarrior]

So, it is looking like Crean took the program to the big-time, rather than the program taking Crean to the big-time.   

I don't think that is quite the case.  While many schools like the ones I mentioned have natural advantages over us, we do have a lot to offer to a motivated, talented coach (particularly one who looks at what we are, rather than what we aren't) in terms of resources, facilities, support and just plain enthusiasm.  With the right guy, there's a lot Marquette can offer.  It's just that with the wrong guy, we can drop below the top 100 level rather quickly.

That's why the BoT and Cottingham need to take great, great care with this hire.

[TVDirector]

top 25-30 is the lower 90 percentile of all programs.

A-/B+ is not necessarily elite- but pretty darned high for a 'mid-major', imo.

[RawdogDX]

After 9 seasons of Crean-o-mania including a FF, entry into the Big East, the Al, $$$$, charter air travel, yada, yada, and more yada, Marquette is still looked at, as Billy Packer so succinctly put it, as a MID-MAJOR program.

So Crean, for all his antics and side shows, didn't elevate the program beyond the level at which he inherited it. Instead the end result is his stock escalated and we're just where we started.

Pretty sure i wouldn't have been able to watch many games on tv from the west coast if we were a mid major program.

[WarriorHal]

After 9 seasons of Crean-o-mania including a FF, entry into the Big East, the Al, $$$$, charter air travel, yada, yada, and more yada, Marquette is still looked at, as Billy Packer so succinctly put it, as a MID-MAJOR program.

So Crean, for all his antics and side shows, didn't elevate the program beyond the level at which he inherited it. Instead the end result is his stock escalated and we're just where we started.

Isn't the fact that Crean left for Indiana pretty solid evidence that even he considers MU a mid-major program that's a stepping-stone to the big time? O'Neil did the same thing when he abandoned MU to go to Tenn., a school that was in a much better conference at the time. Also, the head coaches at Wash. St., Xavier and VCU have no interest in MU. That says quite a bit right there. All MU can attract are coahces at small-time programs looking to move up or assistants at big-time programs looking for a head coaching job. That's been the school's history since Al retired. If we were a major program, we wouldn't have crashed back to earth as soon as D. Wade left. Getting lucky once every 10 or 20 years with a great player who was under the radar  is probably the best we can hope for. The unfortunate truth is, MU has been a mid-major ever since Al retired. I've been trying to convince myself otherwise for 30 years--I graduated in '77. But Crean's sudden departure is the final nail in the coffin. At least we are a high level mid-major now, which certainly wasn't the case when Crean came here.

[MUSF]

After 9 seasons of Crean-o-mania including a FF, entry into the Big East, the Al, $$$$, charter air travel, yada, yada, and more yada, Marquette is still looked at, as Billy Packer so succinctly put it, as a MID-MAJOR program.

So Crean, for all his antics and side shows, didn't elevate the program beyond the level at which he inherited it. Instead the end result is his stock escalated and we're just where we started.

Isn't the fact that Crean left for Indiana pretty solid evidence that even he considers MU a mid-major program that's a stepping-stone to the big time? O'Neil did the same thing when he abandoned MU to go to Tenn., a school that was in a much better conference at the time. Also, the head coaches at Wash. St., Xavier and VCU have no interest in MU. That says quite a bit right there. All MU can attract are coahces at small-time programs looking to move up or assistants at big-time programs looking for a head coaching job. That's been the school's history since Al retired. If we were a major program, we wouldn't have crashed back to earth as soon as D. Wade left. Getting lucky once every 10 or 20 years with a great player who was under the radar  is probably the best we can hope for. The unfortunate truth is, MU has been a mid-major ever since Al retired. I've been trying to convince myself otherwise for 30 years--I graduated in '77. But Crean's sudden departure is the final nail in the coffin. At least we are a high level mid-major now, which certainly wasn't the case when Crean came here.

Flawed logic.

Did Roy Williams consider Kansas a mid-major because he left for North Carolina? Do you think anyone in their right mind would consider Kansas a mid-major?

Most of the coaches you named, also told Indiana they weren't interested. Does that make IU a mid-major? Does it make WSU and Xavier better programs than IU? Come on guys, let's not go over board here. Each situation is different. I'm disappointed too and I think their is a good chance that we are going to take a step back after Crean but we are a long way from a mid-major right now.

But hey, believe what you want. I guess our team should just quit. You can go suck start a shotgun if you want but I am going to wait and see.

[WarriorHal]

Flawed logic.

Did Roy Williams consider Kansas a mid-major because he left for North Carolina? Do you think anyone in their right mind would consider Kansas a mid-major?

Most of the coaches you named, also told Indiana they weren't interested. Does that make IU a mid-major? Does it make WSU and Xavier better programs than IU? Come on guys, let's not go over board here. Each situation is different. I'm disappointed too and I think their is a good chance that we are going to take a step back after Crean but we are a long way from a mid-major right now.
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Roy Williams made a lateral move because of his long-time personal ties to North Carolina. He went from major to major; nobody, including Williams, considered it a move up. And at this point, I'm not sure what post-Knight Indiana is. A so-so program in a so-so conference looking at possible NCAA sanctions. Crean can battle it out with Northwestern and Penn St. I can see why not everybody was anxious to jump into this situation.

[MUSF]

Flawed logic.

Did Roy Williams consider Kansas a mid-major because he left for North Carolina? Do you think anyone in their right mind would consider Kansas a mid-major?

Most of the coaches you named, also told Indiana they weren't interested. Does that make IU a mid-major? Does it make WSU and Xavier better programs than IU? Come on guys, let's not go over board here. Each situation is different. I'm disappointed too and I think their is a good chance that we are going to take a step back after Crean but we are a long way from a mid-major right now.
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Roy Williams made a lateral move because of his long-time personal ties to North Carolina. He went from major to major; nobody, including Williams, considered it a move up. And at this point, I'm not sure what post-Knight Indiana is. A so-so program in a so-so conference looking at possible NCAA sanctions. Crean can battle it out with Northwestern and Penn St. I can see why not everybody was anxious to jump into this situation.

Here's the problem I am having with the mid-major claims. It seems that people are trying to say that there are three types of teams; major, mid-major, and small. Therefore if a coach leaves us for another school, he must consider it a move from mid-major to major. This is a flawed argument IMO.

I see the breakdown like this.

Elite Programs: Schools with consistent tradition of excellence and the ability to sustain it i.e. budget, recruiting location, fan base, national recognition, etc. I can think of 6 schools off the top of my head

UCLA
Duke
Kansas
North Carolina
Kentucky
Indiana

High Major Programs: 20-30 schools that are cosistently in the top 25, competitive on a national level, and regularly appear in the NCAAs with a top 8 seed. I would include MU in this group under Crean. I also consider schools like Xavier, Wisconsin, Pitt, Oklahoma, etc. at this level.

Major Programs: Teams in major conferences that have the assets to stay competitive and potentially bump up to the High Major level but have not experienced the recent success of the High Majors. Teams like Michigan, Iowa, St. Johns, Seton Hall, and North Carolina State come to mind here.

Mid Majors: Teams not in power conferences that will not consistently compete on a national level but may go through successful stretches and pull off the occasional upset run in the tourney. See, UWM, Southern Illinois, Kent State, Davidson.

Small: Teams that even if they go undefeated and win their conference tournaments are still 15/16 seeds in the tourney.

So, just because a coach leaves a school because he sees it as a step up does not make that school a mid-major program. Likewise if a coach decides he doesn't see MU as a step up doesn't mean he thinks it is a step, or two by my rankings, down.

Regardless of sanctions and turmoil, MU is not IU and probably never will be. Hell, Memphis is in a final four and I think many would still consider Calipari to IU a step up. But just because we aren't Indiana doesn't mean we are UWM.

[lab_warrior]

Wow, who cares about any of this garbage! 
First, Billy Packer sucks...SUCKS!  Nobody cares what he says, period, at least anybody with brains.
Second, I could care less about mid-major (we are the top 4 in win % in the best conference in the country--we're NOT A MID MAJOR!), elite program, any of that crap--what we are right now, and need to be in the future, is a WINNING program.  Keep winning, and we really can't be ignored.  Keep winning, and Gameday will show up.  Keep winning, and Bilas, Katz, et. al. will be FORCED to talk about us.  Keep winning, and we'll sell out.  Keep winning, and we'll get recruits. 

[TJ]

I see the breakdown like this.

Elite Programs: Schools with consistent tradition of excellence and the ability to sustain it i.e. budget, recruiting location, fan base, national recognition, etc. I can think of 6 schools off the top of my head

UCLA
Duke
Kansas
North Carolina
Kentucky
Indiana

Here's what I've been racking my brain with for the last few days - where did that list come from?  It seems like it was established in 1987 and then it was declared that there should be no adjustments to it, ever again.    Had the decision been made 10 years earlier we might have made the list.  Indiana has done nothing in the last 20 years.  They haven't been higher than a 4 seed (once) in the tournament in all that time, they got 1 final 4 as an 8 seed.  They won only 2 championships that anyone under 50 had a chance of seeing.  Many schools have had much more success than they have over that time -  Mich St., UConn, etc.  How does the list change - when does a program gain or lose "elite" status?

[bilsu]

Where do you rate DePaul. Major or mid major. Sometimes we are better than them and sometimes they are better than us. Lately under Crean, we have been better. I certainly would not consider DePaul close to being a major program. I think you guys have a misconception about MU. I also think coaches realize it could end their career if they sink to the bottom third of the Big East here. It really is not that attractive of a job based on risk.

[77ncaachamps]

Mean crap to me.

Packer has never been a head coach of a major program. (His only coaching experience was as an assistant with Wake Forest, his alma mater.)

But if you want to see the PR guy at his best, look at the t-shirts that are slowly unifying the IU faithful: LINK

Crean's a great ringmaster. But is he an elite coach? Dunno. But he is at an elite program.

We're Elite...only according to Nike and the MU faithful.