This Says It All

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

The fact Crean's name is first on those shirts says alot about ole Tommy

[farmdaddy]

Billy Packer is a no talent a$$ clown.  Don't believe anything that hater says.

[MUSF]

Where do you rate DePaul. Major or mid major. Sometimes we are better than them and sometimes they are better than us. Lately under Crean, we have been better. I certainly would not consider DePaul close to being a major program. I think you guys have a misconception about MU. I also think coaches realize it could end their career if they sink to the bottom third of the Big East here. It really is not that attractive of a job based on risk.

Ask yourself this, where would DePaul be in the MAC? I beleive that DePaul, Seton Hall, Rutgers, would probably win a mid-major conference and has the potential to pull some upsets in the tourney. DePaul and other major programs consistently get more talent than mid-majors and have the potential for sustained success. I don't think UWM or Central Michigan have the same potential as DePaul or other mediocre major programs for sustained success. I realize that this may simply be semantics but I think there is a distinct difference between MU and "mid-majors" based on their conference strength and potential for sustained success.

[WarriorHal]

Here's the problem I am having with the mid-major claims. It seems that people are trying to say that there are three types of teams; major, mid-major, and small. Therefore if a coach leaves us for another school, he must consider it a move from mid-major to major. This is a flawed argument IMO.

I see the breakdown like this.

Elite Programs: Schools with consistent tradition of excellence and the ability to sustain it i.e. budget, recruiting location, fan base, national recognition, etc. I can think of 6 schools off the top of my head

UCLA
Duke
Kansas
North Carolina
Kentucky
Indiana

High Major Programs: 20-30 schools that are cosistently in the top 25, competitive on a national level, and regularly appear in the NCAAs with a top 8 seed. I would include MU in this group under Crean. I also consider schools like Xavier, Wisconsin, Pitt, Oklahoma, etc. at this level.

Major Programs: Teams in major conferences that have the assets to stay competitive and potentially bump up to the High Major level but have not experienced the recent success of the High Majors. Teams like Michigan, Iowa, St. Johns, Seton Hall, and North Carolina State come to mind here.

Mid Majors: Teams not in power conferences that will not consistently compete on a national level but may go through successful stretches and pull off the occasional upset run in the tourney. See, UWM, Southern Illinois, Kent State, Davidson.

Small: Teams that even if they go undefeated and win their conference tournaments are still 15/16 seeds in the tourney.

So, just because a coach leaves a school because he sees it as a step up does not make that school a mid-major program. Likewise if a coach decides he doesn't see MU as a step up doesn't mean he thinks it is a step, or two by my rankings, down.

Regardless of sanctions and turmoil, MU is not IU and probably never will be. Hell, Memphis is in a final four and I think many would still consider Calipari to IU a step up. But just because we aren't Indiana doesn't mean we are UWM.
_________________________________________________________________

I think I see what you are saying...it's a matter of how you define things. What you classify as elite, I call major. MU used to be on a par nationally with major programs like Indiana and Kentucky and several steps below (along with everybody else) John Wooden's great UCLA teams. When the players McGuire recruited were gone, MU quickly declined to what I consider mid-major status under Raymonds and never recovered. I thought MU was finally back to major/elite status in '03, but it turned out to be a one-year deal because of DWade. Looking at your five classes, I would place MU in the high major category (as do you), but in danger of falling into the major group depending on the fallout from this coaching change. I certainly didn't mean to suggest that MU was on a par with UWM and Kent St. During my four years, MU was 101-18, played in two final fours and won one national championship. So my idea of what "major" means is probably 30 years out of date and completely unrealistic. 

[MUSF]

"I would place MU in the high major category (as do you), but in danger of falling into the major group depending on the fallout from this coaching change."

Agree 100%.

[Tugg Speedman]

I agree with the above.  This is the best description I have read of the types of programs and where MU fits in.

I also agree that IU is an elite school and it was a step up for Crean.  Like he said "It's Indiana."

That brings up another thought/question.  IU is on its third head coach since The General left.  Essentially they have been a high major program with an elite reputation.  If Crean doesn't deliver.  By that I mean regular final appearances a-la UNC and UCLA, does IU fall off the list of elite programs?

If so, Crean will be credited with creating two "High Major" programs.  Except one started as a major program and the other started as an elite program.  This is why IU is taking a big gamble with Crean.  If Crean cannot deliver, then IU basketball becomes Wisconsin or Michigan State basketball.

[MUSF]

I agree with the above.  This is the best description I have read of the types of programs and where MU fits in.

I also agree that IU is an elite school and it was a step up for Crean.  Like he said "It's Indiana."

That brings up another thought/question.  IU is on its third head coach since The General left.  Essentially they have been a high major program with an elite reputation.  If Crean doesn't deliver.  By that I mean regular final appearances a-la UNC and UCLA, does IU fall off the list of elite programs?

If so, Crean will be credited with creating two "High Major" programs.  Except one started as a major program and the other started as an elite program.  This is why IU is taking a big gamble with Crean.  If Crean cannot deliver, then IU basketball becomes Wisconsin or Michigan State basketball.

I definitely think that IU is in danger of losing its "elite" status. They are on the verge of becoming the ND of college BBall. Exactly why a one man PR machine is a smart hire. Crean's #1 job now is to get people to care about IU again. If he does that, the recruits will come and he will be successful. If Indiana had kept recruits in state, they would never have ended up in this position to begin with.

[ecompt]

where do the 10 Big East teams behind us this year rank? How about the bottom six Big Ten teams? Or the bottom four ACC teams? I guess we can wipe out the Atlantic 10, two-thirds of the SEC and half the Big 12. Packer is an absolute fool who was carried by Al for years and was always jealous of his success.

[Pardner]

Great list.

Kids leaving early for the NBA has changed everything (along with AAU, national TV for hs games, etc.).  If you are a McD's AA, there are a few schools you trust to go to so you don't jeopardize your paycheck.  A new meaning to "one and done".  Those are the elite schools in my book..and the fall out from that is McD AA's who don't pan out, transfer after freshman year to a place where they can get PT (see Duke).

Building a team around a system is about building around the three and four star recruits.  Schools like Duke, Kentucky and Indiana are now in danger of dropping a level.  Ohio State, Georgetown and Louisville are moving up.  Seriously, with the team TC has right now, IU is the fifth best team in their state.  That is not elite.

TC was a great hire for the IU program to move them back up.  He is good at the national pub.  But, the cutters want someone to talk hoops in the barber shop.  He has a tough job ahead of him, and he better improve his x's and o's for the oldtimers--as that is all they want to talk about.  No doubt he will get them from Point A to Point B...like here, the question will be about getting back to Point C.

[Sir Lawrence]

w Packer is an absolute fool who was carried by Al for years and was always jealous of his success.

I like the grade Packer gets on this list:

http://www.collegehoopsnet.com/new/ncaa-tournament-cbs-announcers-41921

[Chicago_inferiority_complexes]

Not terribly surprising out of his mouth. But seriously, show some respect for your school's oldest rival [us].

[ChicosBailBonds]

What says it all and several of us warned you, is that some MU fans overvalued MU and UNDERvalued Crean.

As I said often, look at the hires and candidates by MU in the last 25 years.  Raymonds, Majerus, Dukiet. 

Then Cords arrived and hired KO, a good hire.  He tried to keep things going with Deane,..not a bad hire but not great either.  Then Crean...a GREAT hire.

Problem is that it's. A situation where MU is in a persistent pickle where they need a tremendous coach to make it work. People aren't falling over themselves to play or coach at MU. 

I'll say it again, many people undervalued Crean and overvalued MU at times.

I hope I'm wrong, it would be great if MU could hire away a NCAA coach at a major school rather then settling for assistants or midmajor coaches, but that seems to be the deal.

Shame, but something many of us have seen coming for a long time

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

MU is one screwed up coach hiring away, from looking up at DePaul and St. Johns in the Big East

I agree 1000%... and that's why I was a Crean fan.

MU is a great school and a nice hoops program... but let's face it, it takes a special coach to win at a smaller catholic school.

If you don't believe me, look at the laundry list of catholic schools that have struggled after having coaches leave.

I know some people hate Crean now, but the guy brought a lot of wins, marketing and excitement to the program.

We are in a dangerous spot right now...

[jce]

After 9 seasons of Crean-o-mania including a FF, entry into the Big East, the Al, $$$$, charter air travel, yada, yada, and more yada, Marquette is still looked at, as Billy Packer so succinctly put it, as a MID-MAJOR program.

So Crean, for all his antics and side shows, didn't elevate the program beyond the level at which he inherited it. Instead the end result is his stock escalated and we're just where we started.

When Crean was hired nine years ago, every single person posting here would have been thrilled with a Final Four appearance, regular NCAA appearances, playing near the top of the Big East, graduating 89% of his players and not a whiff of probation.  To say he didn't elevate the program is rediculous.  Did he elevate like Calipari did Memphis or Howland did UCLA?  Nope.  But he was good for MU.  The second best in MU's history by a long shot.

And I agree, Marquette can easilly be where De Paul or St. John's are now.  Really only one bad hire away.

[bs4173]

w Packer is an absolute fool who was carried by Al for years and was always jealous of his success.

I like the grade Packer gets on this list:

http://www.collegehoopsnet.com/new/ncaa-tournament-cbs-announcers-41921

Me, too, but look at how Gumbel got a B+ (top 5). Please. I don't know how credible this list is.

As far as the whole "perception" of what MU is considered in the national spotlight (major, mid-major, etc), i don't think anybody who is an MU student or MU grad can answer this fairly--especially somebody who is stuck in '77 or even '03. i would love to think we're a top 30 program right now, but i would bet that people who have no ties to MU would consider us top 50, not top 30. If any of you noticed the posts from that Xavier fan a day or two ago, he was convinced XU was a better program hands-down. It's tough to judge overall considering we keep convincing ourselves that we're probably not as well-respected as we would like to imagine.

total shot in the dark here: anybody reading this that isn't a die-hard MU hoops fan? what do you think? perhaps we need a wake-up call.

[larrym]

Marquette is still looked at, as Billy Packer so succinctly put it, as a MID-MAJOR program.

Packer, like many people, consider any basketball team from a school without a BCS football team a mid-major.  That the main reason I'd like to see Memphis win it this year.

[bs4173]

haha-- http://www.thestarpress.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080405/NEWS06/80405002


Muncie Star Press: We understand you like basketball. What do you think of the new Indiana University basketball coach, Tom Crean?
Barack Obama: Marquette (Crean's last coaching position) had a terrific team for the last few years. He's a really good coach and I think it was a good coup for Indiana. And he's going to inherit a great core of folks. I'm assuming that Eric Gordon's coming back for one more year.
Star: No
Obama: No?
Star: No. Eric Gordon's going to the NBA.
Obama: Oh well, you guys are going to have to start over. But even with Eric Gordon gone you guys will still have a good core group of underclassmen. And he's a very good coach. Marquette's had a very competitive team for the last few years.


I realize this is a politics-free zone. Maybe Obama could be coach if he doesn't get that other job he's applying for  . Seems to have regard for MU, he played in HS---unlike Crean. Okay, sorry...thought it was funny and worth a post...please don't get political. Just a joke...