Crean's coaching level

[bilsu]

I think MU takes a hugh dive if Crean leaves. Why it is possible to replace him with an up and coming coach, would this coach stay if another program job's opened up. As far as recruiting goes all you have to look at is the comment someone posted about how classy the Marquette players were in California. There are only so many good players. When you rule out the ones that looked like they will not fit in at Marquette the pool is significantly smaller. Crean does a good job at recruiting. Generally, when he losses a recruit is is to a more marquis program. I do not agree with everything he does, but I will never agree with everything any coach does. Certainly I think allowing Mbakee to play was not only a mistake, it was just plain stupid. I also think MU should try harder to redshirt freshmen. Some of them contribute so little as a freshmen, especially if you compare it to what they would add in a fifth year. Barro who had very little experience would have been a good canidate to redshirt as a freshmen. Novak who was so skinniy would have been a good canidate to redshirt as a freshmen. I also think he runs to many offensive sets. I rather be excellant at a few sets, than to be average at 100+ sets. I do not like it when he leaves the starters in after the game is clearly over. I think he sometimes goes to far in keeping players in the doghouse. I do not think we should schedule anyone we expect not to be in the top 200 teams. No reason to be playing a team ranking around 300. So there are many things I disagree with, but I think he is a great coach. I been going to games before McGuire was coach so I have seen a wide array of coaches. I can remember many times watching McGuire cost us games with technicals. I will guarantee you this the upside with another coach at MU is minable at best and the downside is hugh. All you have to do is look at Rick Majerus. Majerus eventually turned out to be a very good coach, but he ran the MU program in the ground.

[MUSF]

If Novak redshirts as a freshman, we don't make the final four.

[MUDPT]

Everyone should watch the post-game interview that was from CBS-58.  Crean looked spent and worse than anybody I have seen in awhile after the game.  The man cares more about the team and the program than anybody.  He has to be respected for that.

[mugrack]

Lets face it people Crean is recruiting top people to MARQUETTE and doing a good job of it.  MU is no UNC, DUKE, UCLA or Kansas.
MU won a championship when these kids grandfathers were in college, a tough sell.
 

[chapman]

I agree that our recruiting level isn't as great as the top Big East teams, but good recruits also come with time.  Hiring someone who might run the program into the ground or bolt for the next job is a risk, and recruits are probably even harder to sell the school to.  Over the summer, since Crean has been with the school 9 years, show recruits that he's brought a team at this school to five NCAA tournaments and the Final Four, can show recruits Dwayne Wade, his team consists of players he brought in, it all makes a difference.  Look at the top Big East teams and their coaches - Calhoun, Pitino, Huggins, Boeheim, all tons of experience.  Mike Brey and Jay Wright also have more head coaching experience than Crean.  JTIII got the Georgetown job primarily because of his father.  Jamie Dixon inherited a team that had been to two Sweet 16s in a row and hasn't gotten any further.  If you're looking for players with more talent or someone you like better, maybe someone else is the option.  But I think it's all reallya desire to win more games or have more postseason success, and chances are sticking with Crean is the best bet to get us there, unless you really believe our school, our administration, and a brand new athletic director is capable of hiring, and keeping, the next Calhoun or Boeheim.  Even hiring a Jamie Dixon equivelent that can sustain the success of his predecessor would only get us to the first or second round every year, so he would be run out of town pretty quickly.

[CTWarrior]

He isn't perfect, but look at where we are compared to when he got here.  I'm an alum looking at my 25th reunion this year.  I support the guy 100%.

As an aside, I was visiting a college buddy in Milwaukee last summer and wandered with my wife and son into the Al to have a look.  I happened to see Crean walk by in his usual hurry and, being the obnoxious guy I am, I cut him off to shake his hand and say hello and thank him for his efforts.  My son was wearing a Sacred Heart shirt, and he asked if we were from Connecticut and he spent 5 minutes talking to us and could not have been more gracious.  Told us to walk around the place and let us in to the main gym area and pointed out some things of interest.  I'm certainly no big donor or anything to merit such special treatment.

When we played St. John's this year my family and I went to the pre-game reception and was talking to a guy who happened to be the new athletic director (only I didn't realize it) and he asked me what I thought of Crean and I told him that little story above and he told me he hears about stuff like that all the time and then told me he was the new AD.  Also a gracious guy, btw.

That's the kind of guy I want running our program.  He wins, we have good graduation rates, our players seem to be very good people, they aren't arrests and scandals, we don't run afoul of NCAA violations, and he is a tireless worker for the school (OK, so maybe some of it is self-promoting).

Jeez, what's not to like?

[warriormom]

Alot of regular Joe old alums love Crean.  My dad has had season tickets since 1960 and loves him.  Crean called my dad in the hospital before his bypass surgery.  No publicity for that but my dad was in a great mood as he went off to surgery.
That is not to say he doesn't criticize him esp. his end of game coaching.
If you think we will get a great coach who stays at MU like Crean, I say you are nuts.
Go Warriors

[DegenerateDish]

Wait, so there's an email list?

Is it like a running message board, just via email? Is it like the Mason's where you have to be initiated to get on to it? Who one day decided, "hey, I'm going to email everyone I know and let them know how much MU basketball sucks today!"? Has this email chain been going on for years?

So many questions.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

That's the kind of guy I want running our program.  He wins, we have good graduation rates, our players seem to be very good people, they aren't arrests and scandals, we don't run afoul of NCAA violations, and he is a tireless worker for the school (OK, so maybe some of it is self-promoting).

Jeez, what's not to like?

This is a great point... "what's not to like?"... I've never heard anybody actually provide any realistic answer. It's always something speculative about his "attitude" or "personality"... It's never about how he actually runs the program.

Also, for those who are convinced that MU would be just fine if Crean left... I will point you to 1978 until 1998 as proof that losing a great coach at MU is a big deal. The truly elite programs rebound quickly... smaller programs like MU probably don't. It's certainly possible (Xavier has done well over the years), but not likely.

There are certainly better coaches out there... but I'll take our current coach 100 time out of 100 because of what he has shown me so far.

[The Lens]

That's the kind of guy I want running our program.  He wins, we have good graduation rates, our players seem to be very good people, they aren't arrests and scandals, we don't run afoul of NCAA violations, and he is a tireless worker for the school (OK, so maybe some of it is self-promoting).

Jeez, what's not to like?

This is a great point... "what's not to like?"... I've never heard anybody actually provide any realistic answer. It's always something speculative about his "attitude" or "personality"... It's never about how he actually runs the program.

Also, for those who are convinced that MU would be just fine if Crean left... I will point you to 1978 until 1998 as proof that losing a great coach at MU is a big deal. The truly elite programs rebound quickly... smaller programs like MU probably don't. It's certainly possible (Xavier has done well over the years), but not likely.

There are certainly better coaches out there... but I'll take our current coach 100 time out of 100 because of what he has shown me so far.

There's more to it than attitude and personality.  Do you think he's a good game coach?  Do you think he has a good feel for the game?  I think he's a fish out of water once the ball is tipped.

[Pakuni]

There's more to it than attitude and personality.  Do you think he's a good game coach?  Do you think he has a good feel for the game?  I think he's a fish out of water once the ball is tipped.

This is where the critics lose me.
According to them, Crean is a bad game coach and leaves much to be desired as a recruiter.
Yet, somehow, he manages to put up 20+ wins most years and gets his team in the NCAA tourney much more often than not, i.e. five of the last seven years.

How is it possible for such a bad coach and mediocre recruiter to have that kind of success? Is he simply the luckiest guy around?

FYI ... I think TC is imperfect as both a recruiter and game coach, but he's hands down the best head coach MU has had in 30 years, by a very large margin. The bashers would do well to remember that.

[Henry Sugar]

There's more to it than attitude and personality.  Do you think he's a good game coach?  Do you think he has a good feel for the game?  I think he's a fish out of water once the ball is tipped.

More questions...

Do you feel he does a good job with player development?  Do you think that his game preparation is quality?  Do you think our players play hard?  Do you feel that Marquette players represent themselves in a way that makes you proud to be an alum?  Do you feel that his in-game adjustments have improved at any level over the last nine years? 

Personally, I agree that his in-game changes are deficient in comparison to other aspects of coaching.  He was never a D1 player and he's only been a head coach for nine years.  Of course, I also think that this is an area where he is improving.  As an example, in the Georgetown game, he switched Matthews onto Rivers mid-game after Rivers made several early shots.

[The Lens]

Pak, I think he works his tail off in game prep (see all his success in pre season tourneys) and has hard working / max effort teams which allow him to win all the games he should.

I think his overall recruiting is pretty good, it would be great if he got a big man.

Wes, Lazar, Jerel & DJ could start for most BE teams.

[MUSF]

There's more to it than attitude and personality.  Do you think he's a good game coach?  Do you think he has a good feel for the game?  I think he's a fish out of water once the ball is tipped.

This is where the critics lose me.
According to them, Crean is a bad game coach and leaves much to be desired as a recruiter.
Yet, somehow, he manages to put up 20+ wins most years and gets his team in the NCAA tourney much more often than not, i.e. five of the last seven years.

How is it possible for such a bad coach and mediocre recruiter to have that kind of success? Is he simply the luckiest guy around?

FYI ... I think TC is imperfect as both a recruiter and game coach, but he's hands down the best head coach MU has had in 30 years, but a very large margin. The bashers would do well to remember that.

Exactly. TC is either a good recruiter or a good xs and os coach, or both. You don't have the success we have had without doing something right. Which is it guys? You can't have it both ways. I know PRN thinks he is not a good recruiter and a decent game coach. Apparently DamonKeys thinks he is, "a fish out of water once the ball is tipped." You can't both be right because we have finished in the top third of the best conference in the country for 3 straight years and made the NCAAs 3 years in a row.

Now is the point where someone makes the vague, "he is an ok coach but bad guy/dishonest/used car salesman," arguement. I don't know, some people just don't care for Crean and that is fine. Some personalities don't mesh well but TC has been more successful than any coach since Al so unless someone can clearly explain how we would be better off without TC, I think we should officially put this discussion to bed.

[MUSF]

Pak, I think he works his tail off in game prep (see all his success in pre season tourneys) and has hard working / max effort teams which allow him to win all the games he should.

I think his overall recruiting is pretty good, it would be great if he got a big man.

Wes, Lazar, Jerel & DJ could start for most BE teams.

All the game prep in the world is not going to make a team without much talent and a horrible game coach beat good teams. If you are correct and TC is a bad game coach then he must be a great recruiter to have the success that we have had.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

There's more to it than attitude and personality.  Do you think he's a good game coach?  Do you think he has a good feel for the game?  I think he's a fish out of water once the ball is tipped.

This is where the critics lose me.
According to them, Crean is a bad game coach and leaves much to be desired as a recruiter.
Yet, somehow, he manages to put up 20+ wins most years and gets his team in the NCAA tourney much more often than not, i.e. five of the last seven years.

How is it possible for such a bad coach and mediocre recruiter to have that kind of success? Is he simply the luckiest guy around?

FYI ... I think TC is imperfect as both a recruiter and game coach, but he's hands down the best head coach MU has had in 30 years, but a very large margin. The bashers would do well to remember that.

I know PRN thinks he is not a good recruiter and a decent game coach. Apparently DamonKeys thinks he is, "a fish out of water once the ball is tipped." You can't both be right because we have finished in the top third of the best conference in the country for 3 straight years and made the NCAAs 3 years in a row.

Incorrect. I think his strength is in preparation. I think he's way too high strung during games. I find it difficult to believe he can intelligently break down what's going on during the game while pacing back and forth like that. And eyewitness accounts from some very big games recently reveal that, at times, he's out of control and abusive.

I suspect the assistant coaching exodus will begin any day now.

[MUSF]

"Pak, I think he works his tail off in game prep (see all his success in pre season tourneys) and has hard working / max effort teams which allow him to win all the games he should."

Should we have beaten Wisconsin this year, Kentucky in the elite eight, UCONN in first BE game ever, ND this years BE tourney?

He has definitely won some games he shouldn't have.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Pak, I think he works his tail off in game prep (see all his success in pre season tourneys) and has hard working / max effort teams which allow him to win all the games he should.

I think his overall recruiting is pretty good, it would be great if he got a big man.

Wes, Lazar, Jerel & DJ could start for most BE teams.

All the game prep in the world is not going to make a team without much talent and a horrible game coach beat good teams. If you are correct and TC is a bad game coach then he must be a great recruiter to have the success that we have had.

Both our 3 and 4 guys are around 6'4". Our 2 is about 6'2". They're all decent ballplayers, but how is that good recruiting? Forget about getting a single "big." We need to have size at other positions to legitimately compete. Next year, we'll have 8 guards on our roster.

I'll say this, that was a helluva tough loss on Saturday. No doubt about that. But we had 4 starters back this year, plus Hayward. And we barely cracked the top 25 by the end of the season.

Is it because of effort? I don't think so. Is it because of poor play? Arguably no.

It's because we don't have any size at ANY position and whether you want to admit it or not that's a reflection on our recruiting!!

You may think Crean is the greatest coach we've had since McGuire, but the only coach we've had that was a worse recruiter was Deane. Even Dukiet got some talent in here, but the school wouldn't play ball like they do now. O'Neill was a much better recruiter than Crean.

[MUfan12]

I'm a TC supporter, no doubt. But there are some things I think he is lacking in a bit. First, he paid the price for that 2003 class for a couple of seasons... losing all 4 set recruiting back at least a year, as TC had to reach on a couple of players. Other than that I have no problem with the recruiting... it's an inexact science, and plenty of great coaches have had their fair share of misses.

The main gripe I have with the game coaching is I think he lacks a feel for the game at times. Timeouts and substitutions can at times be made a few possessions too late. There are other little things as well, like way too much dribbling and lateral motion in the offense. Or never attacking from an inbounds play. It seems like any inbounds play they run is only supposed to get the ball in, never to score. But when you have your 5-11 PG passing it in I guess it makes it difficult to see over a taller defender.

Like I said, we're much better off with him... he's done a lot for the program. There are aspects, like with anything, he needs to keep working on.

[MUSF]

Pak, I think he works his tail off in game prep (see all his success in pre season tourneys) and has hard working / max effort teams which allow him to win all the games he should.

I think his overall recruiting is pretty good, it would be great if he got a big man.

Wes, Lazar, Jerel & DJ could start for most BE teams.

All the game prep in the world is not going to make a team without much talent and a horrible game coach beat good teams. If you are correct and TC is a bad game coach then he must be a great recruiter to have the success that we have had.

Both our 3 and 4 guys are around 6'4". Our 2 is about 6'2". They're all decent ballplayers, but how is that good recruiting? Forget about getting a single "big." We need to have size at other positions to legitimately compete. Next year, we'll have 8 guards on our roster.

I'll say this, that was a helluva tough loss on Saturday. No doubt about that. But we had 4 starters back this year, plus Hayward. And we barely cracked the top 25 by the end of the season.

Is it because of effort? I don't think so. Is it because of poor play? Arguably no.

It's because we don't have any size at ANY position and whether you want to admit it or not that's a reflection on our recruiting!!

You may think Crean is the greatest coach we've had since McGuire, but the only coach we've had that was a worse recruiter was Deane. Even Dukiet got some talent in here, but the school wouldn't play ball like they do now. O'Neill was a much better recruiter than Crean.

PRN, I understand your point on recruiting. I disagree but I understand. My point is that DamonKeys thinks he is an bad game coach. If he is a bad game coach then he must be a very good recruiter because we have been very successful. He attributes our success to preparation but then claims that Crean is abusive on the bench and control freak that people can't stand to work for. If people dislike him so much, then why do they work so hard for him? Why hasn't Burke or Trend just given up at this point?

The reasons people dislike Crean are all over the place. You think he is a bad recruiter. DamonKeys thinks he is a bad game coach but a good recruiter. The arguments against Crean are inconsistent and actually opposed to each other. I am asking which one of you is right. Because it can't be both of you.

The real question is, would we be better off without Crean. I would like anyone to explain how we would be better off without him.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

MUSF said: "He attributes our success to preparation but then claims that Crean is abusive on the bench and control freak that people can't stand to work for. If people dislike him so much, then why do they work so hard for him?"
 
MU has been forced to overpay for assistants because he's so difficult to work with. Yet they still leave every year. I'm sure Buzz Williams will be next. And Seltzer for sure.

There are a number of posters on this board who claim it's natural for assistants to continue to climb up the ladder if they're ambitious. Yet Crean himself stayed at MSU for about 5 years. Is he not ambitious? How long was Tom Izzo under Jud Heathcoate?

[jmayer1]

This thread is a joke.  You can never please some people no matter what you do.  I would hate to see what these people are like in normal life.

Some of the reasons people don't like Crean:

He is a bad recruiter - I don't think he is a great recruiter by an means but he brings in pretty good players, see Blankson, Wade, Novak, Diener, James, Matthews, McNeal, Hayward.  The biggest problem is that MU hasn't had balance.  In the two years after Wade left we were thin at guard, now we are thin on the frontline.  I think Crean does need to try to get more balance in the program but I have to question how we have won so many games in the Big East if our team lacks talent.  The only team to win significantly more games than MU in the last 3 years is GTown.  Crean has won as many games as coaches like Pitino, Calhoun, Dixon, and Wright, and more games than Boeheim, who has managed to recruits tons of McD AA.  Would you rather have all those "stars" that Cuse had or the wins MU had?

He is a bad game coach - I don't think he always makes the best decisions but he does put his team in a positon to win.  I thought the did a great job this year in regards to this department.  Coming out against Nova in the second half and blowing their doors off was a great example.  How MU played the last defensive possession against Stanford was another as they forced an awfully difficult shot.  Some of his moves are questionable but he sure has been able to beat a lot of coaching legends.

He isn't likeable / he is a used car salesman - Some people say this all the time but never have any concrete evidence.  However, you constantly hear stories about how Crean went out of his way to talk to fans or made special gestures.  He is the grand marshall of Al's run but people gloss over that and instead rip on his attire.  He makes a large donation in an effort to attract others but people think it is shameless self-promotion.  If you have never, ever met him in your life, how can you possibly have an opinion on his personality?

MOST IMPORTANTLY - The basketball players are still STUDENT athletes.  Crean graduates them at a fanstastic rate.  On top of that, Crean has had 0 mention of any NCAA infractions and his players have never gotten into trouble are are classy individuals based on all accounts (see DJ at the end of the Kentucky game).

Some have said that MU has always attracted good coaching talent and they wouldn't mind to see him go (though not necessarily calling for him to leave) and that MU would be fine without him.  There is a chance MU would be fine if Crean left and a small chance they would be better off, but I believe there is a much better chance MU would not be nearly as good.  It took MU 30 years after McGuire to find a good coach who actually wanted to build a PROGRAM at MU.  Majerus, Dukiet, and Deane may all have been good coaches or possibly even better recruiters, but no one can argue any of these men had nearly the success Crean has had.  O'Neail had a good run at MU but he thought the job was a stepping stone and not a place to build a program, Crean has shown he wants to build something here.

I believe the bottom line is that MU is in good hands right now and to push Crean out the door would be highly foolish and irresponsible given what he has accomplished in his tenure.  

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

That's the kind of guy I want running our program.  He wins, we have good graduation rates, our players seem to be very good people, they aren't arrests and scandals, we don't run afoul of NCAA violations, and he is a tireless worker for the school (OK, so maybe some of it is self-promoting).

Jeez, what's not to like?

This is a great point... "what's not to like?"... I've never heard anybody actually provide any realistic answer. It's always something speculative about his "attitude" or "personality"... It's never about how he actually runs the program.

Also, for those who are convinced that MU would be just fine if Crean left... I will point you to 1978 until 1998 as proof that losing a great coach at MU is a big deal. The truly elite programs rebound quickly... smaller programs like MU probably don't. It's certainly possible (Xavier has done well over the years), but not likely.

There are certainly better coaches out there... but I'll take our current coach 100 time out of 100 because of what he has shown me so far.

There's more to it than attitude and personality.  Do you think he's a good game coach?  Do you think he has a good feel for the game?  I think he's a fish out of water once the ball is tipped.

That's a fair point... but when you look at the overall state of the program, I would argue that he's a good enough game coach. I don't think he is as instinctual as some other coaches... but the numbers speak for themselves. He's doing a LOT of things right... so picking out one aspect and griping isn't enough of a reason to think that we need a new coach.

[The Lens]

That's the kind of guy I want running our program.  He wins, we have good graduation rates, our players seem to be very good people, they aren't arrests and scandals, we don't run afoul of NCAA violations, and he is a tireless worker for the school (OK, so maybe some of it is self-promoting).

Jeez, what's not to like?

This is a great point... "what's not to like?"... I've never heard anybody actually provide any realistic answer. It's always something speculative about his "attitude" or "personality"... It's never about how he actually runs the program.

Also, for those who are convinced that MU would be just fine if Crean left... I will point you to 1978 until 1998 as proof that losing a great coach at MU is a big deal. The truly elite programs rebound quickly... smaller programs like MU probably don't. It's certainly possible (Xavier has done well over the years), but not likely.

There are certainly better coaches out there... but I'll take our current coach 100 time out of 100 because of what he has shown me so far.

There's more to it than attitude and personality.  Do you think he's a good game coach?  Do you think he has a good feel for the game?  I think he's a fish out of water once the ball is tipped.

That's a fair point... but when you look at the overall state of the program, I would argue that he's a good enough game coach. I don't think he is as instinctual as some other coaches... but the numbers speak for themselves. He's doing a LOT of things right... so picking out one aspect and griping isn't enough of a reason to think that we need a new coach.

I have never said we need a new coach, PRN said yesterday that pushing him out was insane.  I think both our points is that this guy doesn't walk on water and replacing him IF HE LEFT would not be impossible.   

[RawdogDX]

That's the kind of guy I want running our program.  He wins, we have good graduation rates, our players seem to be very good people, they aren't arrests and scandals, we don't run afoul of NCAA violations, and he is a tireless worker for the school (OK, so maybe some of it is self-promoting).

Jeez, what's not to like?

This is a great point... "what's not to like?"... I've never heard anybody actually provide any realistic answer. It's always something speculative about his "attitude" or "personality"... It's never about how he actually runs the program.

Also, for those who are convinced that MU would be just fine if Crean left... I will point you to 1978 until 1998 as proof that losing a great coach at MU is a big deal. The truly elite programs rebound quickly... smaller programs like MU probably don't. It's certainly possible (Xavier has done well over the years), but not likely.

There are certainly better coaches out there... but I'll take our current coach 100 time out of 100 because of what he has shown me so far.

There's more to it than attitude and personality.  Do you think he's a good game coach?  Do you think he has a good feel for the game?  I think he's a fish out of water once the ball is tipped.

That's a fair point... but when you look at the overall state of the program, I would argue that he's a good enough game coach. I don't think he is as instinctual as some other coaches... but the numbers speak for themselves. He's doing a LOT of things right... so picking out one aspect and griping isn't enough of a reason to think that we need a new coach.

I have never said we need a new coach, PRN said yesterday that pushing him out was insane.  I think both our points is that this guy doesn't walk on water and replacing him IF HE LEFT would not be impossible.   

Really that is all you two want?  Peaopl on this board to admit that A: crean can't walk on water and B: our program would not cease to exist if he left?  Ok fine, you win.  He isn't the jesus of baskeball coaches and we would still have a team if he got hit by a bus.  I propose that we taser the genatalia of anyone who argues against either of these points.  I think each new member when they sign up should have to first take a test that looks like this:
1) does crean walk on water?
a) yes
b) no
2) would we still have a team if crean left?
a) yes
b) no
And if anyone got either wrong we could record their IP and ban them from the site completely forever.

There, now can we stop hearing senseless bashing along the lines of 'He can't look at a game intellegently because he paces too much.'  I don't see how anyone who can read this board would come away thinking 'all those guys want is for people to realize he doesn't walk on water.' when he is called 'a fish out of water' and is attacked for trying to raise cash for a soccer field, having a game scheduled at the same time as the packer game, any time a player is hurt in practice, any time someone he employes is offered a raise and a promotion by an outside organization, any time he recruits anyone under 6'9, any time he loses a game where his best players spend the entire game missing wide open 17 footers, you can claim that people who get obsessed and attack him on a personal level on a weekly basis are just trying to convince people that he isn't perfect but all it does is make people who have a realistic view of him (ie. me) have to spend time defending him from crazies who get mad over things he doesn't even have control over.