Colton Crowdis committed.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

If they're relying on Caedin for 10ish minutes a game, then yeah, pretty good chance they've already misevaluated.
Maybe this is the year the long-promised big leap from Hamilton actually happens, but fool me thrice?

I think the only way (assuming Fru/Royce stay healthy which is an assumption) Caedin gets 10 minutes a game is if he actually does make the long-promised leap. After Christmas break, Caedin averaged 8.9 minutes a game. Which included a game that Ben missed due to injury and a game where Ben's minutes were limited due to injury. This season we have a better and healthier starting 5, a more experienced version of Royce, and more and better options at the 4 than we had last season. Caedin shouldn't get minutes out of necessity, he'll get them because he's earned them...or because there's injuries.

[Jay Bee]

I think the only way (assuming Fru/Royce stay healthy which is an assumption) Caedin gets 10 minutes a game is if he actually does make the long-promised leap. After Christmas break, Caedin averaged 8.9 minutes a game. Which included a game that Ben missed due to injury and a game where Ben's minutes were limited due to injury. This season we have a better and healthier starting 5, a more experienced version of Royce, and more and better options at the 4 than we had last season. Caedin shouldn't get minutes out of necessity, he'll get them because he's earned them...or because there's injuries.

Two/kind of three questions:
(1) Assuming he doesn't get minutes out of necessity or 'because he's earned them', how many minutes per game do you believe he'll get? (Related question: will he be regularly put into the game in the first half of games?)

(2) How does he earn minutes? (Last year it was a twinkle in his eye - is that a good reason this year as well?)

[Tha Hound]

I think the only way (assuming Fru/Royce stay healthy which is an assumption) Caedin gets 10 minutes a game is if he actually does make the long-promised leap. After Christmas break, Caedin averaged 8.9 minutes a game. Which included a game that Ben missed due to injury and a game where Ben's minutes were limited due to injury. This season we have a better and healthier starting 5, a more experienced version of Royce, and more and better options at the 4 than we had last season. Caedin shouldn't get minutes out of necessity, he'll get them because he's earned them...or because there's injuries.

Just the fact that we have to game this out is crazy to me. I don't understand how the staff can watch Caedin play the last 2 years and not do everything in their power to improve that backup 5 spot. Why even take the chance that a negative BPR guy might be forced to play meaningful minutes? No ones ever been able to give me an actual reason.

Fru averaged 22 minutes at Louisville by the way.

[tower912]

That's a 180, basketball strategy wise (down to your core, you know a back up ballhandler/playmaker was needed.  You said so 1000 times).  But not a 180 from an oh well, we did what we could do.  I'm sure Shaka did everything he could wise. 

I absolutely wanted two guards and a big.  Tell me how you force them to MU for back up minutes at a back up price.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Two/kind of three questions:
(1) Assuming he doesn't get minutes out of necessity or 'because he's earned them', how many minutes per game do you believe he'll get? (Related question: will he be regularly put into the game in the first half of games?)

(2) How does he earn minutes? (Last year it was a twinkle in his eye - is that a good reason this year as well?)

1. I'm not nearly as passionate as you about when in a game his minutes come. If the long-promised leap never comes, I think there is one specific situation where Caedin is effective. He is a competent, maybe even good, defender when matched up with big back to the basket bigs. For example, against UConn at home, he got 18 minutes and actually looked like he belonged because he could matchup with Reed and Reibe. There is a value to having a 6'9" 250 lb dude on the bench even if he's hopeless on offense.

All that to say, I think if he's the same Caedin as last season, I don't see him getting consistent minutes (without injuries). I think most games will either be DNP-CD or only a handful of minutes, but there may be some nights where the matchup is more favorable that he gets into double digits.

2. I'm not sure what "twinkle in his eyes" means. I think Caedin is one of those unfortunate players that can perform in practice but self-immolates once the bright lights are on. I think Shaka tried to force feed Caedin minutes to get him past it but eventually cried uncle.  I don't think they try that again. I think Caedin will have to show he's effective in the minutes he gets against cupcakes if he's going to get significant minutes in real games.

Here's hoping the long-promised leap finally comes.

[wadesworld]

Just the fact that we have to game this out is crazy to me. I don't understand how the staff can watch Caedin play the last 2 years and not do everything in their power to improve that backup 5 spot. Why even take the chance that a negative BPR guy might be forced to play meaningful minutes? No ones ever been able to give me an actual reason.

Fru averaged 22 minutes at Louisville by the way.

The staff watched Caedin play last year and significantly dropped his minutes.  Going into the offseason, they made getting a starting 5 in the portal their biggest priority, and brought in one of the best players in the portal to do that.  They anticipated having Sheek as the backup 5, and they even had an agreement from Sheek to return until SLU made him an offer he couldn't refuse.  They didn't watch and think, "We're good at the 5!"

We want Shaka to play the portal game.  We can't complain about Shaka not playing the portal game, and then complain when the portal game bights us in the a$$.  That's part of the game.

Fru will play plenty more than 22 mpg.  Louisville had players behind him that were good enough to play high major minutes at the 5.  Marquette doesn't.  He'll play 30+ just like Oso did his junior and senior seasons.

[tower912]

Exactly.  Even though I am still on the minutes and lost starting role hill, money clearly played a part.

So, if you believe Sheek left for more money, it is inconsistent to say the staff should be able to, on short notice, find somebody as good or better for what Sheek was going to be paid.

The portal is a tool.   It giveth, it taketh.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Just the fact that we have to game this out is crazy to me. I don't understand how the staff can watch Caedin play the last 2 years and not do everything in their power to improve that backup 5 spot. Why even take the chance that a negative BPR guy might be forced to play meaningful minutes? No ones ever been able to give me an actual reason.

Fru averaged 22 minutes at Louisville by the way.

I think something fans forget is that the staff has watched Caedin play literally thousands more hours than we have. Game performance is the most important data point but its not the only data point.

I think you have been given an actual reason. Sheek was the answer. He was poached at the 11th hour. Staff looked for replacements but the pool was limited and came away empty.

Fru was splitting time with Aly Khalifa, a top 100 player per BPR (Fru was top 175). I think he will get at least 28 minutes a game with us. Royce will get a majority of the minutes that Fru is on the bench.

[Pakuni]

I think the only way (assuming Fru/Royce stay healthy which is an assumption) Caedin gets 10 minutes a game is if he actually does make the long-promised leap. After Christmas break, Caedin averaged 8.9 minutes a game. Which included a game that Ben missed due to injury and a game where Ben's minutes were limited due to injury. This season we have a better and healthier starting 5, a more experienced version of Royce, and more and better options at the 4 than we had last season. Caedin shouldn't get minutes out of necessity, he'll get them because he's earned them...or because there's injuries.

I mean ... 8.9 minutes? 10ish minutes? Are we really quibbling over 65 seconds a game here? The point is, if the staff looks at CH as the primary backup in the post, I think - and all the evidence to date suggests - that's a misevaluation.
Heck, before Sheek left, everyone here would have said the same. If anyone in March had suggested Caedin should be the primary backup, not Sheek, they'd have been laughed off Scoop. All that's happened to change that is Sheek leaving, not Hamilton becoming any more capable of holding down those minutes. But now, apparently, giving those minutes back to CH is not an issue?

Fru played 22 mpg last year. I didn't watch enough Louisville to say whether that's because that was the limit of his effectiveness, or UL had a strong bench or some other reason.
But even if he can stretch that out to 28-30 mpg, that still leaves 10-12 minutes per night in the post (assuming no foul trouble). Maybe Royce can handle some of those when an opponent goes small. But based on what we saw last year, he's not a strong interior defender and any big with some post skills is going to eat against him (see Tre Carroll in the BE tournament).
So if not Caedin, where do those minutes go?

[tower912]

And the staff has been upfront about Fru getting as many minutes as he can handle.  So, the honest sales pitch, come to MU for 8-10 minutes for the money we were going to pay Sheek.

[MurphysTillClose]

Exactly.  Even though I am still on the minutes and lost starting role hill, money clearly played a part.

So, if you believe Sheek left for more money, it is inconsistent to say the staff should be able to, on short notice, find somebody as good or better for what Sheek was going to be paid.

The portal is a tool.  It giveth, it taketh.

Brew gave you four specific examples today, including two in the Big East who made late additions that could've been bench pieces. 

[WhiteTrash]

I think something fans forget is that the staff has watched Caedin play literally thousands more hours than we have. Game performance is the most important data point but its not the only data point.

That reminds me, but 180 degrees in the opposite direction, of Tebow. I was on the field before a Broncos game and saw Tim bouncing warm-up throws to receivers. He looked awful compared to the other Bronco QBs, but he started and look decent in the actual game.

[Vander Blue Man Group]

If they're relying on Caedin for 10ish minutes a game, then yeah, pretty good chance they've already misevaluated.
Maybe this is the year the long-promised big leap from Hamilton actually happens, but fool me thrice?

Or, as multiple other people have posted, the looked at other bigs after Sheek's unexpected departure and there wasn't a fit for a variety of reasons. 

So should the staff make a desperation move?

Everything is not black and white like some here seem to think. 

[Pakuni]

Exactly.  Even though I am still on the minutes and lost starting role hill, money clearly played a part.

So, if you believe Sheek left for more money, it is inconsistent to say the staff should be able to, on short notice, find somebody as good or better for what Sheek was going to be paid.

The portal is a tool.  It giveth, it taketh.

It's not a matter of finding someone better than Sheek, especially since none of us know how good he is. It's a matter of finding someone better than Caedin and Josh, which doesn't seem the portal equivalent of climbing Everest.

[MU82]

Let's say Shaka screwed this up. He could have gotten a decent backup big but didn't because he was too late, or too short on funds, or too stubborn, or too beholden to "fit" and "culture," or too (fill in the blank).

Shaka certainly has been far from perfect as a recruiter, portal user and talent evaluator. So, for the sake of argument, I'll agree he somehow screwed it up.

You know what ... it's over! So either we can keep b!tching about it and assessing blame and whining and speculating ... or we can, I don't know, wait to see what actually happens?

Yeah, I know. I must be new here.

[tower912]

It's not a matter of finding someone better than Sheek, especially since none of us know how good he is. It's a matter of finding someone better than Caedin and Josh, which doesn't seem the portal equivalent of climbing Everest.

And having them willing to play bench minutes for a lower price.

Same thing at PG.   Sales pitch: We have a sophomore star in the making who we anticipate playing 30 mpg.   Are you interested in backing up for a smaller amount of money?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I mean ... 8.9 minutes? 10ish minutes? Are we quibbling over 65 seconds a game here? The point is, if the staff looks at CH as the primary backup in the post, I think - and all the evidence to date suggests - that's a misevaluation.
Heck, before Sheek left, everyone here would have said the same. If anyone in March had suggested Caedin should be the primary backup, not Sheek, they'd have been laughed off Scoop. All that's happened to change that is Sheek leaving, not Hamilton becoming any more capable of holding down those minutes.

Fru played 22 mpg last year. I didn't watch enough Louisville to say whether that's because that was the limit of his effectiveness, or UL had a strong bench or some other reason.
But even if he can stretch that out to 28-30 mpg, that still leaves 10-12 minutes per night in the post (assuming no foul trouble). Maybe Royce can handle some of those when an opponent goes small. But based on what we saw last year, he's not a strong interior defender and any big with some post skills is going to eat against him (see Tre Carroll in the BE tournament).
So if not Caedin, where do those minutes go?

I wasnt quibbling. I agree that if Caedin is the same as last year and plays 10ish mpg, that's a misevaultion. I don't think it will happen for the reasons I gave.

Fru was splitting time with a top 100 (per BPR) player in Aly Khalifa. They also had two other big men who were much better than anything MU will have next season. Under Shaka the starting 5 has gotten at least 25mpg every year except year 1 (Kur/Oso platoon). I think Fru gets at least 28 a game barring injury or the LPL (long promised leap). I think the majority of the remaining minutes will go to Royce with Owens and Egbuono playing at the 4. I think there will be a small handful of minutes for Caedin and Clark... unless the LPL finally comes to pass (not holding my breath on that one)

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Brew gave you four specific examples today, including two in the Big East who made late additions that could've been bench pieces. 

Who did LSU grab that isn't starting or would help us? Bashir and Ugochukwu are going to start, Nunez isn't a high major player.

Who did NC State grab that would help us? Jacari Brim 1.2  ppg at app state? Comeh Emuobor whose BPR is 2 points lower than Hamilton's?

Seton Hall? I think Wol and Williams are going to start for them. Nwuli, maybe you grab him on potential, but on paper, he's not as good as Owens, Phillips, or Egbuono.

Providence, Bannarbie looks like a great depth piece for PC. Good on them. If Hodgson stays at PC (big if I think)...they could be a lot of trouble.

I'm not trying to claim that there were zero players out there who may have accepted a bench role and may have been good enough to help us, that's not true. But it's not true that we "played turtle." Those guys were identified and talked to. They either weren't a match for what we were looking for or their salary demands were beyond what we were willing to give them.

Some coaches thrive in environments where their relationships with their players is strictly a business relationship. Our coach isn't that. That's not a judgement good or bad. It's just an acknowledgement that different coaches succeed in different ways. Our coach for better or worse, succeeds by recruiting players who buy into his style of coaching/culture. He's never going to be a guy who recruits a guy solely because of his basketball talent. If he did, he wouldn't be successful. Again, I don't care how a coach does it, I just want to win and not be in the newspaper for the wrong reasons. But expecting Shaka to coach in a way that he can't be successful just doesn't make sense.

[The Sultan]

So, if you believe Sheek left for more money, it is inconsistent to say the staff should be able to, on short notice, find somebody as good or better for what Sheek was going to be paid.

I don't want them to find somebody "as good or better" than Sheek. I want them to find someone better than Caedin Hamilton and Josh Clark.

[Pakuni]

So should the staff make a desperation move?

Framing this as a choice between a "desperation move" or "Caedin as your primary backup" feels like a "death is not an option" proposition.

Of course, it's not that. There were options that wouldn't be desperation moves, and probably other beyond that, as Brew's Cracked Sidewalks piece outlined.

[Pakuni]

And having them willing to play bench minutes for a lower price.

A lower price than what?

[WhiteTrash]

And having them willing to play bench minutes for a lower price.

Same thing at PG.  Sales pitch: We have a sophomore star in the making who we anticipate playing 30 mpg.  Are you interested in backing up for a smaller amount of money?

I don't think the money would be less. I am guilty of watching some low major basketball and the majority of centers in the MEAC, MVC, MAAC, etc. looked more comfortable and skilled than Hamilton. I'd guess that MU backups make more than them.

Just my opinion and I could be wrong.

[tower912]

A lower price than what?

OK, for a number similar to what Sheek was slated to be making at MU prior to his departure. 

Taking into account the reported $ being tossed around to any big man with a pulse.  Including Sheek.

[Small Orange Soda]

Even if Sheek had stayed, why carry an RS soph C AND an RS junior C if they don't deserve playing time? He's gone and people still are saying these guys shouldn't play.

[Pakuni]

I think Fru gets at least 28 a game barring injury or the LPL (long promised leap). I think the majority of the remaining minutes will go to Royce with Owens and Egbuono playing at the 4. I think there will be a small handful of minutes for Caedin and Clark... unless the LPL finally comes to pass (not holding my breath on that one)

If the staff believed Royce could serve as the primary backup in the post, limiting CH/JC to mop-up duty, why didn't that happen last year?

Despite losing his starting gig, Caedin still played more than 10 minutes in five of the team's last 10 games, and averaged 9.5 mpg over that stretch. (Ben missed significant time in only one of those games, btw, and averaged 28 mpg ... so "Ben was hurt" is not the answer).

Beyond that, we all know Shaka puts a premium on defense. And whether we agree or not, he thinks Hamilton can defend. Given what we've seen from Royce's post defense, do you really believe Shaka is going to go with an inferior defender over a guy he thinks plays good defense?
Maybe he will, but history suggests otherwise.